Omnipotent in one's dimension/realm/universe is a great feat, BUT is obsolete if that respective realm can be destroyed. I think Celestials have showed that they can contain/destroy entire universes.
Celestials can't contain a universe unless all of them are combined move and rearrange the celestial objects inside the universe. Are you confusing the Celestials to the Infinites? The Infinites have the ability to single-handedly contain the universe but the Infinities just like the Celestials, their energy can be sacrificed... Cyttorak's or Shuma's energies can't be sacrificed since their energy is eternal and infinite.
@Setherial said:
@ShootingNova said:
@Setherial: Your post was about omnipotence, not "nigh-omnipotence". Unless you aren't referring to Essential Omnipotence, or "Absolute" Omnipotence, that is.
His bio says 'virtually omnipotent' and virtually is like saying 'apparently but not really', so I wouldn't say that Shuma's bio is hyperbole.
It's Neigh-Omnipotent because Shuma-Gorath is not omniscient like agamotto. Since Shuma lacks some knowledge, that makes him not Omnipotent, but he still has the power of the infinites since he is basically the leach of all realities. I can just imagine a Celestial's power being siphoned instantly being near the vicinity of Shuma-Gorath's essence.
Shuma's still pretty damn smart. I mean he quoted Nietzsche when battling Strange. He's been spying on Earth for quite a while lol.
I'd say that most of the Celestials are no match for a properly written Shuma-Gorath. Thanos Imperative really solidifies that considering Shuma helped empower the Galactus Engine that was barreling through Celestials like cake.
IMO i think Marvel is implicating that Galactus has UNLIMITED POTENTIAL when amped by others. Kinda explains why SG used the Galactus engine in an attempt to conquer all. Or why the Black Celestial used him to conquer the universe. Or why Franklin Richards used him to save the universe. No doubt SG is powerful but i think he may not been powerful enough to pull off his scheme on his own. Food for thought.
Galactus can do a lot when amped. But Shuma-Gorath can also drain magical and non-magical energy without limit, meaning there's no actual limit to the amps that Shuma can get. Plus, at least in Thanos Imperative, the Kree detected "larger, more powerful entities" than the Galactus Engine about to come through the fault. Considering Shuma, Kthl, Yot-Sotr, and Nyerlathortech were the four Old Ones summoned during the ritual to kill Death (the most important task), it's clear that those four were the most powerful of the MAO's (and Shuma is the only MAO with any background of feats), and thus those four were more powerful than the Galactus Engine. Shuma's like the Big G of magic, imo. His powerful fluctuates based on where he's at and what he's consumed.
Good point.....So why was the Galactus engine even needed?? Imma have to re-read that arc. Either way, that version of SG + Cyttorak will be favorable against the 4th Host. Although SG's bio does says his power or something was on a planetary scale....in this case, maybe they won't be favorable vs the Host.
Omnipotent in one's dimension/realm/universe is a great feat, BUT is obsolete if that respective realm can be destroyed. I think Celestials have showed that they can contain/destroy entire universes.
Celestials can't contain a universe unless all of them are combined move and rearrange the celestial objects inside the universe. Are you confusing the Celestials to the Infinites? The Infinites have the ability to single-handedly contain the universe but the Infinities just like the Celestials, their energy can be sacrificed... Cyttorak's or Shuma's energies can't be sacrificed since their energy is eternal and infinite.
@Setherial said:
@ShootingNova said:
@Setherial: Your post was about omnipotence, not "nigh-omnipotence". Unless you aren't referring to Essential Omnipotence, or "Absolute" Omnipotence, that is.
His bio says 'virtually omnipotent' and virtually is like saying 'apparently but not really', so I wouldn't say that Shuma's bio is hyperbole.
It's Neigh-Omnipotent because Shuma-Gorath is not omniscient like agamotto. Since Shuma lacks some knowledge, that makes him not Omnipotent, but he still has the power of the infinites since he is basically the leach of all realities. I can just imagine a Celestial's power being siphoned instantly being near the vicinity of Shuma-Gorath's essence.
Shuma's still pretty damn smart. I mean he quoted Nietzsche when battling Strange. He's been spying on Earth for quite a while lol.
I'd say that most of the Celestials are no match for a properly written Shuma-Gorath. Thanos Imperative really solidifies that considering Shuma helped empower the Galactus Engine that was barreling through Celestials like cake.
IMO i think Marvel is implicating that Galactus has UNLIMITED POTENTIAL when amped by others. Kinda explains why SG used the Galactus engine in an attempt to conquer all. Or why the Black Celestial used him to conquer the universe. Or why Franklin Richards used him to save the universe. No doubt SG is powerful but i think he may not been powerful enough to pull off his scheme on his own. Food for thought.
Galactus can do a lot when amped. But Shuma-Gorath can also drain magical and non-magical energy without limit, meaning there's no actual limit to the amps that Shuma can get. Plus, at least in Thanos Imperative, the Kree detected "larger, more powerful entities" than the Galactus Engine about to come through the fault. Considering Shuma, Kthl, Yot-Sotr, and Nyerlathortech were the four Old Ones summoned during the ritual to kill Death (the most important task), it's clear that those four were the most powerful of the MAO's (and Shuma is the only MAO with any background of feats), and thus those four were more powerful than the Galactus Engine. Shuma's like the Big G of magic, imo. His powerful fluctuates based on where he's at and what he's consumed.
Good point.....So why was the Galactus engine even needed?? Imma have to re-read that arc. Either way, that version of SG + Cyttorak will be favorable against the 4th Host. Although SG's bio does says his power or something was on a planetary scale....in this case, maybe they won't be favorable vs the Host.
Well the most we've seen him use his magic on panel was manipulate a planet (the Earth simulacrum) but he's certainly beyond planetary in power. Shuma-Gorath threatened Strange (and Strange acknowledged) that if he wasn't stopped he would conquer the entire cosmos, and the Vishanti (Agamotto, Oshtur, Hoggoth) stated that they had fought with Shuma-Gorath before (these are guys that threatened to destroy the universe if they battled Slorioth) but couldn't help Strange against Shuma because they'd throw the universe out of cosmic balance by doing so. Plus, when Sise-Neg had absorbed just about all the energy in Marvel Universe and Shuma-Gorath was the very last possessor of magical energy in the cosmos, even he was concerned that Shuma would drain away some of his energy. There's also him taking over Nightmare's realm without having to entire the realm (and Nightmare's realm is even beyond the sixth dimension). I think the demon lords do quite well here.
I think the its too difficult to decide which is more powerful/effective between cosmic and magic. One thing for sure is that it is stated in bios, panels etc that the most powerful magic users may reach a cosmic scale, to me implies that cosmic is greater. Again IMO. Anyways, Agamotto is/was a member of the Vishanti and his battle with a weak Galactus in his own realm doesn't do much justice for the Vishanti. Nightmare is a Fear lord who is more comparable to the likes of Mephisto, Odin etc. Sis Neg on the otherhand is very impressive. I think the 4th Host has a good shot here as well.
The Celestials can not exist in any other dimension besides the ones that inside the realm of Eternity.
Could you show me a scan, a bio, which even remotely alludes that Celestials cant exist outside the universe? Based on what are we claiming this?
And by outside the realm of Eternity , if you mean extra-dimension, Asgard is extra-dimensional space as well, Celestial showed up there just fine.
@Betatesthighlander1 said:
@Evil Incarnate: i request scans
Dr. Strange was intentionally amped, he pretty much went on absorbing energies from various of Shuma Gorath's associated he faces, it was his use of Black Magic, and the fact that he was fighting Shuma Gorath and his minions too long, made him like Shuma Gorath allowing him to absorb Shuma's own energy and then destroy him.
Here are the scans, cuts that substantiate it and bio that follows:
Strange Tales volume 2, 14: Here Dr. Strange does the near impossible, beats Shuma Gorath in his own realm. This is however done using plot, first by being force to use black magic against Arioch and having absorbed him, this help Dr. Strange transform to something closer to shuma gorath, leading him to actually absorb Shuma Gorath's essence and finally beat him. In essence, because of plot, Shuma Gorath ended up fighting his very own powers, and that is what destroyed him
Gallery
Since this is a little difficult idea lets spend a bit more time trying to understand what happened and of course i'll follow up with marvel bio to substantiate it.
Firstly, when Dr. Strange meets Shuma Gorath he states how Dr. Strange has changed because of the use of Black Magic.
A little philosophy "He who fights too long with Dragons becomes a Dragon himself"
So the use of black magic changed him and Shuma Gorath notes if you fight long enough with the dragon you become dragon himself, i take this to mean you fight with Shuma Gorath long enough you become Gorath himself.
This panel depicts more change that has occurred in Dr. Strange, he is becoming more and more aggressive, understandable as he is fighting a primal god of chaos and tapping into similar energy
More reference straight from Shuma Gorath that he has changed.
Then Shuma Gorath finally comments on how he was absorbing his own powers
Marvel handbook 2005 verifies it, and it also points that it was the use of black magic that led him to become Shuma Gorath
@TheSecondOpinion said:
A Celestial Armor is averaged at 2,000 feet high.
The Twin Towers are roughly 1,400 feet high
Mount Everest is 30,000 feet high
The Earth is 25,000 Miles across
The Sun is 800,000 Miles across
The Solar System is 2,200,000,000 Miles across
The Calabash Nebular is 1 Light Year across
The Milky Way Galaxy is 100,000 Light Years across
Local Cluster is 10,000,000 Light Years across
Coma Wall is 500,000,000 Light Years across
Observable Universe is 94,000,000,000,000 Light Years across
Shuma or Cyttorak would be times that by the 20ths Dimension (94 Trillion Light Years times 20)
So this is what it's like for a 2,000 feet Armor fighting against something larger than a whole Universe times 20th power.
Substantiate the bolded part please, nothing of that sort has ever been mention on either of the comics Shuma Gorath has appeared, nor has anything like that been mentioned in any of the bio, apart from Gorath himself claiming he is infinite.
A scan? A bio? Writers commentary anything please?
@TheSecondOpinion said:
That wasn't Shuma... You have to read the entire arc to understand. Maybe CortSether is better at explaining it. But that wasn't Shuma entire self. It was an essence of his many angles. So either Dr. Strange grew as tall as a few hundred trillion light years in size or Shuma condensed itself into the size of a mountain. You also have to remember at that time. Shuma was at one point 10 times larger than Earth. So why would Shuma be switching sizes randomly that is if only he is using these bodies as mere creations of his power.
I hve read the entire arc, in fact i have read everything realated to Shuma Gorath, i also actively made a chronology of Shuma Gorath , click here .
I go with the old adage, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its probably a duck.
And there is absolutely no mention of Dr. Strange growing in size, before and after having fought and beaten Shuma Gorath.
Also substantiate the bolded part, where exactly was it even remotely alluded that he was larger than earth, let alone 10 times?
@TheSecondOpinion said:
@Betatesthighlander1 said:
I don't remember anything about him ever being 10 times the size of Earth. And that it was Shuma in his home dimension, i kinda feel that it was Shuma at max power. That being said, size is irrelevant to non-corporeals, and i see fewer feats for Shuma
The panel right before your first scan:
If reads "Do you? Good. Its a mystic image of your planet earth. What i do to this globe will directly affect the real earth."
Its actually on the same page you picked your panel from, how did you manage to miss that.
The second image is a fan art, not sure why you posted that.
Beyonder is as big as 100,000,000,000,000,000 times our universe! If you read Secret War, Beyonder was so big, that the Multiverse looked like a small dot on the page!
But instead of being 100,000,000,000,000,000 larger than the multiverse, he needed some way to interact with our space, so what does he do? He created a manifested human body for himself....
The same thing goes for Shuma, Cyttorak, and all those other extradimension things in the Omniverse.
No idea what Beyonder has got to do anything with Shuma or Cyttorak,it was said that marvel universe vs Beyonder's realm was like comparing a drop of water against an ocean, where is the multiverse part coming from? That actually makese sense given Beyonder was his own multiverse (as substantiated by Marvel Age interview with Jim Shooters), feel free to ask for scan.
@TheSecondOpinion said:
Example:
3th Dimension exist the Realm of Asgard and the Realm of Olympus and the realm of Avalon
6th Dimension exist the Realm of the Astral Plane, Heaven and Hell, the Spirits
10th Dimension exist the Realm of Space-Time Eternity and Infinity
16th Dimension exist the realm of Manifestation, the realm of the Living Tribunal (In Marvel, the 16th Dimension is capable of over-viewing the entire multiverse as a flat plane)
Then you have those extradimesions that go even beyond that point where the Living Tribunal looks 2-D to them, like the Beyonder, Cyttorak, Shuma-Gorath, Vishanti, Trinity of Ashes, Trion, Faltine etc.
Again, a scan, a bio, a writer commentary, anything substantiated the bolded part. None of the bolded people, bar pre-retcon Beyonder are anywhere close to Living Tribunal in terms of powers.
@TheSecondOpinion said:
Good that you brought that up, now if you could, please post up the next page, or I think it was 2 pages. You will see Eternity unconscious, and Umar and Dormammu are standing right next to it..... FLAT..... 2-D....
Umar also says this,
"Yuck! Look at this goo.... (refering Eternity's body as a piece of Goo)... Why spend your efforts playing with it?"
Dormammu: "Sister, if I take over the consciousness of Eternity, I will be able to manipulate all time."
Umar: "What about the Dark Dimension?"
Dormammu: "You wish not dive in with me?"
Umar: "No, I will not lower myself to be any part of this goo..."
Dormammu, "Very well, I will leave the Dark Dimension to you, while I shape the Multiverse into my own image!"
*Dormammu dives into Eternity swimming inside it*
Umar, "That idiot...." (meaning while Dormammu in inside Eternty, she is left with the much larger portion of the Splinter Realm.... The Dark Dimension!)
That akin to comparing what Thanos with IG did against Eternity, after all we know both Dormammu and Umar, more so Umar then Dormammu, were greately amped by the polar shift during Defenders Vol 3, 1-8.
Also no idea what you are saying in the bolded part, Eternity is not the universe or a multiverse, he is an abstract embodiment of the universe. 2 different things.
Cyttorak is a Multiversal Being and battled across the Multiverse. Same with Shuma. The Celestials exist in the Different Universes, but none have shown to be Multiversal threats except the 4 renegade Celestials that Franklin and Galactus stomped on.
Cyttorak is a Multiversal Being and battled across the Multiverse. Same with Shuma. The Celestials exist in the Different Universes, but none have shown to be Multiversal threats except the 4 renegade Celestials that Franklin and Galactus stomped on.
Mystical Beings for the win.
Celestials are neutral. They are not multiversal threats because they don't try to take over the multiverse. But when 4 Mad Celestials went on a rampage, the multiverse was on the brink of being conquered. I wanna say even in their marvel/wiki bio, it states that it was still to be determined if they will succeed. As for the battle, it can go either way....
Cyttorak is a Multiversal Being and battled across the Multiverse. Same with Shuma. The Celestials exist in the Different Universes, but none have shown to be Multiversal threats except the 4 renegade Celestials that Franklin and Galactus stomped on.
Mystical Beings for the win.
Celestials are neutral. They are not multiversal threats because they don't try to take over the multiverse. But when 4 Mad Celestials went on a rampage, the multiverse was on the brink of being conquered. I wanna say even in their marvel/wiki bio, it states that it was still to be determined if they will succeed. As for the battle, it can go either way....
Only way I see this "going either way"..., Is if the Celestials uses a plot device inside Eternity's space. And the PIS is limited to BFR the influences of the two big guys.
@Killemall said:
@TheSecondOpinion said:
The Celestials can not exist in any other dimension besides the ones that inside the realm of Eternity.
Could you show me a scan, a bio, which even remotely alludes that Celestials cant exist outside the universe? Based on what are we claiming this?
There are literally thousands of pages throughout the passed 37 years that show Celestials existing (as Armor) only in universal 3D space. There is only ONE instance, where ONE Celestial has manifested in the Dimension of Manifestation but that is because the Living Tribunal invited him to exist with it.
Every other time, you do not see a Celestial Armor existing in places like the Astral Planes or beyond that. That is continuity and you can't go against 37 years of history.
@Killemall said:
And by outside the realm of Eternity , if you mean extra-dimension, Asgard is extra-dimensional space as well, Celestial showed up there just fine.
Asgard is not an extradimension. It's hidden realm in subspace that is parallel to Midgard (Earth) and the rest of the Nine Worlds (Realms).... They are NOT Dimensions, let alone and ever will they be, extradimensionsal.... Alfheim, Asgard, Hel, Jotunheim, Midgard (Earth), Muspelheim, Nidavellir, Svartlfheim, Vanaheim are ALL 3rd Dimensional Planes! They are not extradimensions.
And speaking about extradimensions and that Asgard (or any other hidden 3D realm) is not extradimensional is that fact that Chthon took Oklahoma and Asgard AWAY (literally) from their previous 3D realms, and placed it in an extradimensional plane away from forces that even Eternity itself can not get into.
.
Extradimension in all respects means... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Above and Beyond Eternity......
Asgard belongs in a place INSIDE Eternity... The Crimson Cosmos and the Chaos Dimension are NOT a PART or INSIDE Eternity.
This is explained more than a million times in almost EVERY Dr. Strange comic since 1962 up until 2006.
You can ask ALL of the readers of Dr. Strange...
The entire comic series of Dr. Strange starting from 1962 is about a man who becomes a sorcerer solely to protect the 3D reality from extradimensional realities that are above Eternity.
Eternity is the THING, that HOUSES the 3D.
If Eternity is destroyed then there will not be no 3D world. We would simply not exist.
Oblivion's Chaos King was a tribute to this idea.
Question:
Do you ever hear Dr. Strange say that Asgard is BEYOND ALL TIME AND SPACE?
How many times from 1962 up until 2006 that is consistent where Dr. Strange says "This place is beyond Time and Space!" (Regarding to extradimensions that are: The Chaos Dimension, The Crimson Cosmos, the Faltine, The Vishanti realm, The Dimension of Manifestation, The Dimension of Perilous, The Dimension of Dream etc.) Dr. Strange says this almost every time he steps out side of Eternity.
How many times has Dr. Strange refer to Eternity as "Time & Space" throughout the passed 37 years?
Does he ever say that Asgard and the 9 Worlds are "Beyond Time and Space"?
The answer is NO to the underlined because Asgard DOES have time and space. Dr. Strange (or any body) doesn't need to manifest a new body to interact with it, because Asgard is a 3D world. Asgard is bonded to the laws of Time and Space. Whereas, extradimensions are not. (Extradimensions are OUTSIDE of SPACE & OUTSIDE of TIME) -- Hence "Beyond!"
@Killemallsaid:
No idea what Beyonder has got to do anything with Shuma or Cyttorak,it was said that marvel universe vs Beyonder's realm was like comparing a drop of water against an ocean, where is the multiverse part coming from? That actually makese sense given Beyonder was his own multiverse (as substantiated by Marvel Age interview with Jim Shooters), feel free to ask for scan.
@TheSecondOpinion said:
Example:
3th Dimension exist the Realm of Asgard and the Realm of Olympus and the realm of Avalon
6th Dimension exist the Realm of the Astral Plane, Heaven and Hell, the Spirits
10th Dimension exist the Realm of Space-Time Eternity and Infinity
16th Dimension exist the realm of Manifestation, the realm of the Living Tribunal (In Marvel, the 16th Dimension is capable of over-viewing the entire multiverse as a flat plane)
Then you have those extradimesions that go even beyond that point where the Living Tribunal looks 2-D to them, like the Beyonder, Cyttorak, Shuma-Gorath, Vishanti, Trinity of Ashes, Trion, Faltine etc.
Again, a scan, a bio, a writer commentary, anything substantiated the bolded part. None of the bolded people, bar pre-retcon Beyonder are anywhere close to Living Tribunal in terms of powers.
Beyonder, Cyttorak and Shuma-Gorath are all extradimensional beings. That is substantial enough. That being they are all extradimensional means they have the consciousness to manipulate Eternity they way as they wish it to be. Only difference is that Cyttorak doesn't care about Eternity's "small realm". Shuma wants to merge it with his own. And Beyonder wants to use it as a playground.
@TheSecondOpinion said:
A Celestial Armor is averaged at 2,000 feet high.
The Twin Towers are roughly 1,400 feet high
Mount Everest is 30,000 feet high
The Earth is 25,000 Miles across
The Sun is 800,000 Miles across
The Solar System is 2,200,000,000 Miles across
The Calabash Nebular is 1 Light Year across
The Milky Way Galaxy is 100,000 Light Years across
Local Cluster is 10,000,000 Light Years across
Coma Wall is 500,000,000 Light Years across
Observable Universe is 94,000,000,000,000 Light Years across
Shuma or Cyttorak would be times that by the 20ths Dimension (94 Trillion Light Years times 20)
So this is what it's like for a 2,000 feet Armor fighting against something larger than a whole Universe times 20th power.
Substantiate the bolded part please, nothing of that sort has ever been mention on either of the comics Shuma Gorath has appeared, nor has anything like that been mentioned in any of the bio, apart from Gorath himself claiming he is infinite.
A scan? A bio? Writers commentary anything please?
If you really read Dr. Strange comics and comprehended it as it was meant to tell, you would have noticed this by now. You also know that Bio's are only limited to tell SUMMARIES, because YOU KNOW, that a BIO CAN NOT fit 50 Years of history in ONE PAGE.
Substantiate the bolded part please, nothing of that sort has ever been mention on either of the comics Shuma Gorath has appeared, nor has anything like that been mentioned in any of the bio, apart from Gorath himself claiming he is infinite.
A scan? A bio? Writers commentary anything please?
If you really read Dr. Strange comics and comprehended it as it was meant to tell, you would have noticed this by now. You also know that Bio's are only limited to tell SUMMARIES, because YOU KNOW, that a BIO CAN NOT fit 50 Years of history in ONE PAGE.
Shuma-Gorath is not the only one who has said he has infinite power. The narration in Strange Tales II, along with Kaluu, have both stated that once Shuma-Gorath's powers were within Strange, Strange had 'touched infinity'. Even before that he had absorbed a god of infinite power (Arioch). Marvel has that whole 'levels of infinity' explanation.
Substantiate the bolded part please, nothing of that sort has ever been mention on either of the comics Shuma Gorath has appeared, nor has anything like that been mentioned in any of the bio, apart from Gorath himself claiming he is infinite.
A scan? A bio? Writers commentary anything please?
If you really read Dr. Strange comics and comprehended it as it was meant to tell, you would have noticed this by now. You also know that Bio's are only limited to tell SUMMARIES, because YOU KNOW, that a BIO CAN NOT fit 50 Years of history in ONE PAGE.
Shuma-Gorath is not the only one who has said he has infinite power. The narration in Strange Tales II, along with Kaluu, have both stated that once Shuma-Gorath's powers were within Strange, Strange had 'touched infinity'. Even before that he had absorbed a god of infinite power (Arioch). Marvel has that whole 'levels of infinity' explanation.
And a single Celestial is possesed with TRANSINFINITE level of power!!!
Cyttorak is a Multiversal Being and battled across the Multiverse. Same with Shuma. The Celestials exist in the Different Universes, but none have shown to be Multiversal threats except the 4 renegade Celestials that Franklin and Galactus stomped on.
Mystical Beings for the win.
Celestials are neutral. They are not multiversal threats because they don't try to take over the multiverse. But when 4 Mad Celestials went on a rampage, the multiverse was on the brink of being conquered. I wanna say even in their marvel/wiki bio, it states that it was still to be determined if they will succeed. As for the battle, it can go either way....
Only way I see this "going either way"..., Is if the Celestials uses a plot device inside Eternity's space. And the PIS is limited to BFR the influences of the two big guys.
@Killemall said:
@TheSecondOpinion said:
The Celestials can not exist in any other dimension besides the ones that inside the realm of Eternity.
Could you show me a scan, a bio, which even remotely alludes that Celestials cant exist outside the universe? Based on what are we claiming this?
There are literally thousands of pages throughout the passed 37 years that show Celestials existing (as Armor) only in universal 3D space. There is only ONE instance, where ONE Celestial has manifested in the Dimension of Manifestation but that is because the Living Tribunal invited him to exist with it.
Every other time, you do not see a Celestial Armor existing in places like the Astral Planes or beyond that. That is continuity and you can't go against 37 years of history.
@Killemall said:
And by outside the realm of Eternity , if you mean extra-dimension, Asgard is extra-dimensional space as well, Celestial showed up there just fine.
Asgard is not an extradimension. It's hidden realm in subspace that is parallel to Midgard (Earth) and the rest of the Nine Worlds (Realms).... They are NOT Dimensions, let alone and ever will they be, extradimensionsal.... Alfheim, Asgard, Hel, Jotunheim, Midgard (Earth), Muspelheim, Nidavellir, Svartlfheim, Vanaheim are ALL 3rd Dimensional Planes! They are not extradimensions.
And speaking about extradimensions and that Asgard (or any other hidden 3D realm) is not extradimensional is that fact that Chthon took Oklahoma and Asgard AWAY (literally) from their previous 3D realms, and placed it in an extradimensional plane away from forces that even Eternity itself can not get into.
.
Extradimension in all respects means... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Above and Beyond Eternity......
Asgard belongs in a place INSIDE Eternity... The Crimson Cosmos and the Chaos Dimension are NOT a PART or INSIDE Eternity.
This is explained more than a million times in almost EVERY Dr. Strange comic since 1962 up until 2006.
You can ask ALL of the readers of Dr. Strange...
The entire comic series of Dr. Strange starting from 1962 is about a man who becomes a sorcerer solely to protect the 3D reality from extradimensional realities that are above Eternity.
Eternity is the THING, that HOUSES the 3D.
If Eternity is destroyed then there will not be no 3D world. We would simply not exist.
Oblivion's Chaos King was a tribute to this idea.
Question:
Do you ever hear Dr. Strange say that Asgard is BEYOND ALL TIME AND SPACE?
How many times from 1962 up until 2006 that is consistent where Dr. Strange says "This place is beyond Time and Space!" (Regarding to extradimensions that are: The Chaos Dimension, The Crimson Cosmos, the Faltine, The Vishanti realm, The Dimension of Manifestation, The Dimension of Perilous, The Dimension of Dream etc.) Dr. Strange says this almost every time he steps out side of Eternity.
How many times has Dr. Strange refer to Eternity as "Time & Space" throughout the passed 37 years?
Does he ever say that Asgard and the 9 Worlds are "Beyond Time and Space"?
The answer is NO to the underlined because Asgard DOES have time and space. Dr. Strange (or any body) doesn't need to manifest a new body to interact with it, because Asgard is a 3D world. Asgard is bonded to the laws of Time and Space. Whereas, extradimensions are not. (Extradimensions are OUTSIDE of SPACE & OUTSIDE of TIME) -- Hence "Beyond!"
@Killemallsaid:
No idea what Beyonder has got to do anything with Shuma or Cyttorak,it was said that marveluniverse vs Beyonder's realm was like comparing a drop of water against an ocean, where is the multiverse part coming from? That actually makese sense given Beyonder was his own multiverse (as substantiated by Marvel Age interview with Jim Shooters), feel free to ask for scan.
@TheSecondOpinion said:
Example:
3th Dimension exist the Realm of Asgard and the Realm of Olympus and the realm of Avalon
6th Dimension exist the Realm of the Astral Plane, Heaven and Hell, the Spirits
10th Dimension exist the Realm of Space-Time Eternity and Infinity
16th Dimension exist the realm of Manifestation, the realm of the Living Tribunal (In Marvel, the 16th Dimension is capable of over-viewing the entire multiverse as a flat plane)
Then you have those extradimesions that go even beyond that point where the Living Tribunal looks 2-D to them, like the Beyonder, Cyttorak, Shuma-Gorath, Vishanti, Trinity of Ashes, Trion, Faltine etc.
Again, a scan, a bio, a writer commentary, anything substantiated the bolded part. None of the bolded people, bar pre-retcon Beyonder are anywhere close to Living Tribunal in terms of powers.
Beyonder, Cyttorak and Shuma-Gorath are all extradimensional beings. That is substantial enough. That being they are all extradimensional means they have the consciousness to manipulate Eternity they way as they wish it to be. Only difference is that Cyttorak doesn't care about Eternity's "small realm". Shuma wants to merge it with his own. And Beyonder wants to use it as a playground.
@TheSecondOpinion said:
A Celestial Armor is averaged at 2,000 feet high.
The Twin Towers are roughly 1,400 feet high
Mount Everest is 30,000 feet high
The Earth is 25,000Miles across
The Sun is 800,000 Miles across
The Solar System is 2,200,000,000 Miles across
The Calabash Nebular is 1Light Year across
The Milky Way Galaxy is 100,000 Light Years across
Local Cluster is 10,000,000 Light Years across
Coma Wall is 500,000,000 Light Years across
Observable Universe is 94,000,000,000,000 Light Years across
Shuma or Cyttorak would be times that by the 20ths Dimension (94 Trillion Light Years times 20)
So this is what it's like for a 2,000 feet Armor fighting against something larger than a whole Universe times 20th power.
Substantiate the bolded part please, nothing of that sort has ever been mention on either of the comics Shuma Gorath has appeared, nor has anything like that been mentioned in any of the bio, apart from Gorath himself claiming he is infinite.
A scan? A bio? Writers commentary anything please?
If you really read Dr. Strange comics and comprehended it as it was meant to tell, you would have noticed this by now. You also know that Bio's are only limited to tell SUMMARIES, because YOU KNOW, that a BIO CAN NOT fit 50 Years of history in ONE PAGE.
And in the 50yr history of Marvel, WHO or WHAT outside of an omnipotent being or artifact has killed a Celestial??
Just remember one thing. It was the Vishinti that 1st introduced Cyttorak as the very 1st essence in the entire Marvel continuity only 9 issues after the Vishanti were mentioned in Marvel when Dr. Strange 1st practiced the spell of the Crimson Bands. They told Dr. Strange, that if Strange were to ever piss Cyttorak off for lack of better term, They or any other near omnipotent throughout the entire omniverse, would not be able to help him.
And it came true... 30 years latter...
All of the ALL POWERFUL entities Strange has ever employed himself to could not help him when Cyttorak cancelled all of their powers to save him.
It came true again another 20 years later.
The Phoenix Force's power was negated at the presence of Cyttorak.
This is all in consistency.
This is why writers do not want to put Cyttorak into their stories. He's too ambiguous to write for. Stan Lee created Cyttorak to be above comprehension.
"In his native dimension, Shuma-Gorath is virtually omnipotent..."
Unfortunately, this appears to be somewhat hyperbole. Shuma-Gorath failed to simply blink Strange-Arioch out of existence, so he isn't omnipotent.
It's not Hyperbole, it's CIS. Shuma allowed Strange to do as he would to defeat Shuma, because of Shuma's arrogance. You know how Strange beat him, right? Dr. Strange had to become Shuma-Gorath itself in order to beat it. It's not hyperbole. It was Shuma's CIS roll with a mix of Dr. Strange's PIS.
How can someone's only feat be CIS? If this is the only thing that you ever saw him do, It's not CIS, it means people (possibly in-universe) just overestimated him
@Setherial: Do you have any idea what "infinity" or "omnipotent" mean?
Yes, I do. According to the writers at Marvel, there are various levels of infinity. Arioch had infinite power, but was Shuma-Gorath's servant, thus Shuma-Gorath was of a higher level of infinity than Arioch.
@Setherial: so anyone who follows orders is weaker than the commander? i guess Captain America is more powerful than Thor, I guess Richard Nixon is stronger than Doctor Manhattan, and Superman is weaker than Batman
and I don't think Marvel has ever set up "multiple levels" of Infinity, villains just try to make themselves seem more powerful than they actually are.
@Setherial: so anyone who follows orders is weaker than the commander? i guess Captain America is more powerful than Thor, I guess Richard Nixon is stronger than Doctor Manhattan, and Superman is weaker than Batman
and I don't think Marvel has ever set up "multiple levels" of Infinity, villains just try to make themselves seem more powerful than they actually are.
It's written all over the arc that Shuma-Gorath was the most powerful of the Old Ones that assaulted earth. Aside from that, godlike entities, using cosmics for example, have always been arranged in hierarchy in terms of power. You won't find Living Tribunal taking orders from Eternity/Infinity or Lord Chaos/Master Order taking orders from the In-betweener. The more powerful the entity the more respect he commands. In the case of the Old Ones, why would a malevolent god take orders from someone else that was weaker than itself? It just doesn't happen.
Marvel has explained the levels of infinity concept based on Cantor's Theorem. It is explained by Kubik.
@Setherial: Kubik engaging in logical fallacies and obvious misunderstanding mathematical concepts hardly counts as word of God, also, I'm not really seeing Arioch as someone who is all powerful/impossible to trick
@Setherial: Kubik engaging in logical fallacies and obvious misunderstanding mathematical concepts hardly counts as word of God, also, I'm not really seeing Arioch as someone who is all powerful/impossible to trick
The only one that is truly all powerful is TOAA. Even LT isn't all-powerful. However, the chaotic energy that presented itself as the demon Arioch was made of 'infinite power'. Doctor Strange even agrees with Arioch's statement that he had infinite power and agreed that he could not possibly stand against it, which is why he resorted to merging with that power.
And what about Kubik's statement is a logical fallacy? Can you not count by odd numbers infinitely? Can you not count by even numbers infinitely? Do both odd and even numbers of which can be counted infinitely high not join to make a single set of whole numbers that can be counted infinitely?
And in the 50yr history of Marvel, WHO or WHAT outside of an omnipotent being or artifact has killed a Celestial??
There is no such thing as a true omnipotent being inside Marvel except for the Editor-In-Chief, the Writers, and the Chairman
So the answer is NEIGH-Omnipotent
Thanos (IG)
Beyonder
Thanos (HOTU)
Sue Richards
Galactus
Ego
Shuma Gorath
Zom
Chthon
Dr. Doom
Franklin Richards
Mikaboshi
Genesis
Nemesis
Dormammu (created 616 universe with no Celestials until Strange and Umar restored it)
Magneto (had to use his power reinactivate a dead Celestial)
Apocalypse (Wanted to ascend passed a Celestial and was really close in doing it have not been for Juggernaut, Phoenix and Iceman)
Jamie Madock (via the M'Kraan Crystal)
The Phoenix Force
The Fates of Yggdrasil
Turn the question around to the two extradimensional guys.
Who or What has killed Cyttorak?
Who or what has killed Shuma-Gorath?
Here's more:
Who or what created the Celestials? (There is an answer)
Who or what created Cyttorak or Shuma-Gorath?
Can the Celestials be surpassed or have its roll taken over by the Evolution of Humans?
Can Cyttorak or Shuma-Gorath be surpassed or their roll being taken over by the evolution of Humans?
There's an answer to all of this and its there under plane sight throughout the continuity of 50 years of consistent writing.
Wow!!! where to start??
There are a few on your list that did kill a celestial(s). 2 of which were powered by omnipotent (nigh omnipotent) artifacts (ie Thanos, Dr Doom).
Beyonder has never killed a celestial. (pls correct me if im wrong)
Sue Richards was a plot device IMO. (she was inaffective vs the Mad Celestials, her force field couldnt even stand a blast, yet she was able to destroy a celestial greater than a whole Host) thats a head scratcher....
Obviously Galactus who was amped by Franklin Richards (a celestial level being) who i dont think killed a celestial on his own.
Phoenix Force has not killed a celestial, rather got murdered by the Goblin Force who in turn had the power of the Phoenix Force + Galactus + its own just to fall before a Host of Celestials.
Everyone else on your list....please advise.
MORE:
Jack Kirby/Stan Lee created the Celestials and i think they were pretty adiment about the mystery that clouds their creation in comics.
IMO HUMANS have UNLIMITED POTENTIAL and will one day surpass every cosmic/mystical being in all of comics. (of course we being humans must have the final triumph). This is why the Celestials chose us (humans) to experiment on....to one day evolve into the greatest beings ever.
@cosmic_reign: Galactus destroyed Celestials with ease. He even ripped apart one of them with brute force.
True....Galactus ripped up a celestial, BUT in all fairness that was a Franklin Richards AMPED Galactus.
Perhaps, but it wasn't said he amped him, he just revived him, and when he fought them in space before Franklin showed up he clearly one shotted that Celestial and after that they merged to beat him.
Shuma and cyttorak are really, really overblown. Shuma is stronger than the vishanti, so he might destroy a couple, but really can't take it. Cyttorak is featless and extremely vauge about power levels, anything said about him is assumption.
There are literally thousands of pages throughout the passed 37 years that show Celestials existing (as Armor) only in universal 3D space. There is only ONE instance, where ONE Celestial has manifested in the Dimension of Manifestation but that is because the Living Tribunal invited him to exist with it.
Every other time, you do not see a Celestial Armor existing in places like the Astral Planes or beyond that. That is continuity and you can't go against 37 years of history.
Again a bunch of unrelated, unsubstantiated statements, and has no bearing to what was asked of you.
I asked, you claim Celestial cant exist outside Eternity realm (616 universe), while the very fact that Celestial have come and gone to Asgard, which is an extradimensional realm shows otherwise, so either being proof else stop spreading lies.
Asgard is not an extradimension.
I stopped reading your post after this point and certainly looks like you have, despite as much as you try to pretend, no idea what extradimension and innerdimension actually means.
Fact is Asgard is an extra-dimensional.
Lets prove it shall we, lets see how you get around something as clearly substantiated.
What is extradimensional?
Marvel Glossary also gives us a definition of what extra-dimensional actually means:
As it reads "a being from a dimension other than that of Earth".
Is Asgardia from a dimension other than earth, and is Thor extra-dimension? He is , has always been.
Firstly, on panel Thor called extra-dimensional warrior.
As it reads : "As for the extradimesnional warrior who calls himself Thor."
Are you pretending you know more about Marvel cosmology than Marvel comics and handbook?
Lets puts more info on this.
Marvel handbook 1984, clearly shows Asgard being seperated from earth dimension. Given what extra-dimension actually means Asgard is an extradimensional realm, often interchangebly called otherdimensional plane.
warrior.
Beyonder, Cyttorak and Shuma-Gorath are all extradimensional beings.
So is Thor as are every single Asgardians. Show how valid your claims are.
So are every single person who live in Micro cosmoc (Microverse)
If you really read Dr. Strange comics and comprehended it as it was meant to tell, you would have noticed this by now. You also know that Bio's are only limited to tell SUMMARIES, because YOU KNOW, that a BIO CAN NOT fit 50 Years of history in ONE PAGE.
And if you stop pretending you know what you are talking about, and stop spreading lies, like posting a scan of Shuma Gorath vs a mystic globe and misrepresenting it as the real earth, you would see things differently.
If there is 50 years of continuity backing your illogical statement, pray tell why cant you produce a scan to substantaite your ridiculous claim?
I mean come on, be a darling, quote me a issue, bio, that even remotely alludes any of the gods of 7 spears being > LT, come on. 50 years of continuity apparnetly backs this up, so bring up one scan shouldnt be so hard i would assume?
Hard to say, leaning more towards team 2 given the ridiculous show of Shuma Goraths power, albiet never actually appearing on panel.
Going by Thanos Imperative showing, Shuma can solo Celestials on his own. Hard to compare it with other showings because most of other showing from Shuma arent anywhere close to that impressive but he has always suffered plot defeat.
Cyttorak is the most over-wanked being in comicvine.
@Setherial: On panel, an imp said there were multiple levels of infinity, hardly word of god
Actually thats not the only time and its the only idea that fits marvel cosmology, because not only is marvel beyond physical dimensionally trans-infinite, it is so in terms of powers.
And Kubik's statement was in regards to power having level of infinity, a scan which you have already been shown.
Under this light, it makes more sense:
In terms of power people who have been called omnipotent: 1. Eternity 2. Living Tribunal 3. Cosmic Cube Being 4. Thanos with IG 5. Thanos with HOTU and for lols Dr. Strange and ODin have both been called omnipotent as well, alongside omnipotent Oshtur.
Point was in some regards they are omnipotent, as in capable of doing seemingly anything, despite that there are being beyond their level of omnipotence.
Same with size, every universe is infinite, a multiverse as infinite number of infinite universes, so we have seen beyond infinity. Then we have yet bigger concepts like Megaverse and Omniverse.
Marvel approves Cantor's theory of infinity, and has been build under the same theory.
The Celestials can not exist in any other dimension besides the ones that inside the realm of Eternity.
Pretend they can exist, this is battle forum not actual comics
they can exist in extra-dimensional planes just fine, dont be so gullible to what anyone says, ask him for one instance that even remotely alludes Celestial cant exist in extra-dimensional plane because there are 2 instance, off the top of my head, that contradicts that.
1. Celestial appeared in Asgard just fine, which is extradimensional realm.
2. When Morg merged with UN an unleashed a portion of its powers, in order to escape that Galactus, after the blast, retreated to extra-dimensional realm. While Galactus =/= Celestials, if Galactus has no problem whatsoever moving to extra-dimensional plane, why should Celestial be much different?
And when you ask, make sure he presents a scan, and not some edited picture from MsPaint.
@cosmic_reign: Here Galactus wasn't amped by Franklin.
Yes Galactus has killed a celestial with his own power....This was the most powerful version of Galactus (using his own power) weve seen in comics. He had eatin 4 planets for this battle. (whereas he was hungry and weak and stalemated Agamotto (Elder god level) in his own backyard).
U mentioned that BIg G ripped a celestial apart which did happen but he WAS amped by FR. Sorry for no scan but to me looks like Frankin siphoned his own energy from within him into a sphere then shot it off to bring Galactus back to life. I'll attempt to post scans if necessary but i think its quite obvious with all the crackle effects and all that this was a supercharged Galactus. Maybe FR himself as the dialog says "this is who your son will be, this is who he is." (pure speculation)
Anyways, i was referring to Franklin Richards who i dont think was shown to have killed a celestial on his own.
@cosmic_reign: Here Galactus wasn't amped by Franklin.
Yes Galactus has killed a celestial with his own power....This was the most powerful version of Galactus (using his own power) weve seen in comics. He had eatin 4 planets for this battle. (whereas he was hungry and weak and stalemated Agamotto (Elder god level) in his own backyard).
U mentioned that BIg G ripped a celestial apart which did happen but he WAS amped by FR. Sorry for no scan but to me looks like Frankin siphoned his own energy from within him into a sphere then shot it off to bring Galactus back to life. I'll attempt to post scans if necessary but i think its quite obvious with all the crackle effects and all that this was a supercharged Galactus. Maybe FR himself as the dialog says "this is who your son will be, this is who he is." (pure speculation)
Anyways, i was referring to Franklin Richards who i dont think was shown to have killed a celestial on his own.
I have those scans and I've read that issue several times, there is no proof he amped him, he was only yelling rise rise RISE and then said to me my Galactus, he could probably be amped, but there is no proof and I think that energy ball from Franklin was only to revive Galactus., same as when Mikaboshi was in Zeus body when Zeus took down Galactus, only proof that he was amped was that Mikaboshi left his body.
The Celestials can not exist in any other dimension besides the ones that inside the realm of Eternity.
Pretend they can exist, this is battle forum not actual comics
they can exist in extra-dimensional planes just fine, dont be so gullible to what anyone says, ask him for one instance that even remotely alludes Celestial cant exist in extra-dimensional plane because there are 2 instance, off the top of my head, that contradicts that.
1. Celestial appeared in Asgard just fine, which is extradimensional realm.
2. When Morg merged with UN an unleashed a portion of its powers, in order to escape that Galactus, after the blast, retreated to extra-dimensional realm. While Galactus =/= Celestials, if Galactus has no problem whatsoever moving to extra-dimensional plane, why should Celestial be much different?
And when you ask, make sure he presents a scan, and not some edited picture from MsPaint.
I know they can, I just wasn't in the mood to inform him that they can exist, btw I wasn't sure if Asgard is interdimmensional or extradimensional, thanks for clearing that to me.
@cosmic_reign: Here Galactus wasn't amped by Franklin.
Yes Galactus has killed a celestial with his own power....This was the most powerful version of Galactus (using his own power) weve seen in comics. He had eatin 4 planets for this battle. (whereas he was hungry and weak and stalemated Agamotto (Elder god level) in his own backyard).
U mentioned that BIg G ripped a celestial apart which did happen but he WAS amped by FR. Sorry for no scan but to me looks like Frankin siphoned his own energy from within him into a sphere then shot it off to bring Galactus back to life. I'll attempt to post scans if necessary but i think its quite obvious with all the crackle effects and all that this was a supercharged Galactus. Maybe FR himself as the dialog says "this is who your son will be, this is who he is." (pure speculation)
Anyways, i was referring to Franklin Richards who i dont think was shown to have killed a celestial on his own.
I have those scans and I've read that issue several times, there is no proof he amped him, he was only yelling rise rise RISE and then said to me my Galactus, he could probably be amped, but there is no proof and I think that energy ball from Franklin was only to revive Galactus., same as when Mikaboshi was in Zeus body when Zeus took down Galactus, only proof that he was amped was that Mikaboshi left his body.
Fair enough...ur opinion vs mine. Readers speculation.
yeah, that's Uatu, someone who has actually made a career out of observing the Multiverse declaring that there is only one omnipotent being, And while I'll admit Shuma has some pretty meaty tentacles, love is not his "only weapon"
yeah, that's Uatu, someone who has actually made a career out of observing the Multiverse declaring that there is only one omnipotent being, And while I'll admit Shuma has some pretty meaty tentacles, love is not his "only weapon"
You must think there's a point somewhere in there.
@Setherial: Did you guy get my last post your inbox? About how Marvel has to have level of infinites to explain its cosmology, because i fear it never appeared as it does so often with my comments.
@BigCimmerian: No problem, when i started on comicvine Lance_Bastro used to use extradimensional as a hax code, as if it was the be all and end all, and i actually though what he was saying was correct, then he would put few scans, which were almost always mis-represented, but i did not know then.
After a short debate with another, extremely respectable debator in KMC, Mr.Master he suggest me to go through few things, and then i was suprised as to how things were radically different.
Took me 2 months worth of searching and go through number of bios to figure it out and its absolutely nothing like what 7am keeps saying.
@Setherial: Did you guy get my last post your inbox? About how Marvel has to have level of infinites to explain its cosmology, because i fear it never appeared as it does so often with my comments.
I looked through my inbox and it looks like I didn't receive anything from you. Resend it if you wish. I doubt that bug would happen twice in a row.
@Setherial: On panel, an imp said there were multiple levels of infinity, hardly word of god
Actually thats not the only time and its the only idea that fits marvel cosmology, because not only is marvel beyond physical dimensionally trans-infinite, it is so in terms of powers.
And Kubik's statement was in regards to power having level of infinity, a scan which you have already been shown.
Under this light, it makes more sense:
In terms of power people who have been called omnipotent: 1. Eternity 2. Living Tribunal 3. Cosmic Cube Being 4. Thanos with IG 5. Thanos with HOTU and for lols Dr. Strange and Odin have both been called omnipotent as well, alongside omnipotent Oshtur.
Point was in some regards they are omnipotent, as in capable of doing seemingly anything, despite that there are being beyond their level of omnipotence.
Same with size, every universe is infinite, a multiverse as infinite number of infinite universes, so we have seen beyond infinity. Then we have yet bigger concepts like Megaverse and Omniverse.
Marvel approves Cantor's theory of infinity, and has been build under the same theory.
As per Gorath being virtually omnipotent in his realm, Celestial are virtually omnipotent everwhere :p
Marvel Encyclopedia 2004 : look under power/Weapons =)
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