CaVC: Revolver Ocelot vs Deadshot (VOTING)

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#1  Edited By renamed040924

Shalashaska, gunslinging FOXHOUND commando.

Floyd Lawton, Secret Six assassin.

  • In character
  • Knowledge
  • Standard equipment
  • Pre-New 52 Deadshot
  • Part of the "Challenge A Viner Championship"
  • Nick as Ocelot, TheTrueBarryAllen as Deadshot
  • Both have been hired to assassinate the other and meet up on this rooftop to duel.

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#2  Edited By renamed040924

@thetruebarryallen Revolver Ocelot is a famed Russian mercenary, assassin, terrorist, and founding member of The Patriots. His specialty as his name implies, is revolvers.

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You can make the first move.

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#3  Edited By TheTrueBarryAllen

@nickzambuto: Okay, my message didn't post, that's odd.

I originally said that I won't be able to create my first post for this until Wednesday, I have an important test to study for tonight and I have to pack my room up tomorrow for Thanksgiving Break.

I hope that's alright :)

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Deadshot

The Man Behind the Mask:

Floyd Lawton is Deadshot, a man who originally appeared in Gotham in order to become a new costumed crime fighter but turned to the dark side of the law after not getting the recognition he felt he deserved. While in prison Deadshot learned about the Gotham Underground, and decided to start hiring his services out as an assassin. Deadshot eventually joined the Suicide Squad and has since been a very prominent figure within the group, his skills as a marksman and disregard for human life make him one of the best soldiers the group has ever seen. Lawton's main goal in life is to die in a spectacular fashion, he has no reason to continue living but has no desire to commit suicide, this disregard for his own life makes Lawton ruthless and willing to do anything to obtain a victory, or die trying.

Skills & Abilities

  • Expert Marksmanship - Deadshot is one of the top marksmen in the DCU, commonly boasting to never miss. He shows skills will all forms of projectile weaponry, though he favors his wrist-mounted pistols. Deadshot dislikes leaving his foes alive & has become quite skilled at scoring the 'killing shot'.
  • Reaction Time - Deadshot has incredibly impressive reaction time when in combat. He has been shown to keep up with the likes of Owen Mercer (Captain Boomerang II) who has some degrees of Superspeed. Deadshot admittedly stated that he can count the beats of a hummingbirds wings (12 - 80 beats per second).

Equipment

  • Wrist Pistols - Deadshot uses a set of wrist mounted pistols in order to complete his killings. The most commonly used ammunition type for his pistols are Magnum Slugs. It should also be noted that Deadshot also has access to armor piercing & explosive rounds via voice command through his helmet.
  • Bulletproof Armor - Deadshot has some incredibly durable armor that protects him from small arms fire. He was able to survive an encounter with Deathstroke who unloaded on him with two Uzi's due to the strength of his armor, though he did suffer some broken ribs and required a hospital visit. Deadshot's armor also comes with an insulated layer to protect him from electrocution and a "blood" layer that bleeds out when broken, in order to trick his foes into thinking he's been killed.
  • Technologically Advanced Helmet - Deadshot is able to lock onto targets using a scanning feature in his helmet. He's also able to send and receive radio transmissions, a feature most commonly used to contact Amanda Waller during SS missions.

No Caption Provided

Survives an onslaught of bullets from Deathstroke.

Voice Command: Check!

Blam! Blam! Blam! Blam!!!

Deadshot practices his shooting while blindfolded, he would've been DEAD-ON if it wasn't for Captain Boomerang hitting his bullets with tiny paperclips to set them slightly off course.

Here he shows off how his training has paid off, he's fully capable of taking down several mobsters while jumping through the air while being blindfolded. He's all about those style points.

In the above 3 scans he takes down a jeep filled with gang members, then he hears the sounds of a sniper behind him right before he's about to fire. He turns in time to dodge the bullet an head-shot the sniper, with a pistol.

Here he takes down 9 different meta-humans in a 9 v 1 using his skills and some cunning tactics. The meta humans are:

  1. Deadline
  2. Javelin
  3. Pathfinder
  4. Sudden Death
  5. Sidewinder
  6. Schreck
  7. Kaliber
  8. Metamorpheus
  9. Firebug

It's also impressive that he survived a touch from Sudden Death & the explosion that resulted from killing Firebug.

He's also KO-ed Batman using Two-Face's trick coin. I figured I should mention this because people constantly bring up the fact that he's lost to Batman in a fight instead of just shooting him, but he has a sort of special relationship with the ol' bat just like Joker does, and refuses to actually kill him.

Edge: TBD

H2H (Hand to Hand)

I honestly think Revolver would probably have the advantage in a CQ fight, he probably has better H2H training, though Deadshots armor should help him absorb some of the blows. Deadshot is pretty decent at improvising through and might be able to get a shot off during a key moment in the close quarters fight or create some sort of distraction in order to get some distance between the two of them.

Here he escapes from the Police while still handcuffed. He's able to bounce a rock off of a hubcap in order to hit one of the policemen watching over him, then steals the gun and shoots a telephone wire above the group them.

He's quite crafty and if it comes down to it would probably be able to create a diversion.

He also got into quite the fight with a foe known as 'The Closer' who was bullet proof & super strong. Even when he was within the beating range Deadshot was able to free his arms and shoot Closer in the eyes, opening up an opportunity for him to win the fight. Chances are he's be able to do the same against Ocelot if they get that close to each other.

Edge: TBD

I look forward to your response, and I hope to learn a lot about Revolver Ocelot! The Internet wasn't able to give me that much about him.

@nickzambuto

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#6  Edited By renamed040924

@thetruebarryallen

Okay okay, I see where you're going with this. Thinkin' you're gonna win with your fancy shmancy "organization", and "aesthetic appeal", and- and... "proper grammar". Pff, please.

Alright then, two can play at that game.

Revolver Ocelot

The Man Behind the... Mustache:

Born Adamska, Ocelot is the lovechild of legendary war hero The Boss and the superpowered mystic The Sorrow, two of the most skilled/powerful characters in the entire Metal Gear franchise. Having inherited all the best traits of this super soldier combo, Ocelot quickly rose through the ranks of the CIA, KGB, and GRU all at once, playing triple agent on every side of the iron curtain during the Cold War and manipulating the entire world for his own sadistic ends, all before finishing up his teenage years. Eventually, Ocelot grew bored with this role and became a mercenary, cutting a swath through the world's hot-spots as Naomi put it, and gaining an infamous reputation as one of the deadliest and most terrifying soldiers to walk the Earth. Ocelot's most defining trait is his sadism, preferring revolvers for their slow muzzle velocity which imbeds rounds into the target's body, inflicting much more pain and injury than modern pistols. Adamska is renowned on the battlefields for his sharpshooting, but among the world's governments and leaders, is feared for his unmatched brilliance, a cold and calculating strategist who is always several steps ahead of everybody else.

"I fought wars in Afghanistan, Mozambique, Eritrea, and Chad. Among the Mujahaddin guerillas, I was known and feared as 'Shalashaska'."

Revolver Ocelot, Metal Gear Solid. Shalashaska is a Russian slang term for "prison.

Skills & Abilities

  • Expert Strategist - Revolver Ocelot holds the title of the smartest character in the entire Metal Gear Universe. The world's major powers fear him - at least when he's not pretending to be on their side - and his tactics on the battlefield have helped to propel his name into legend. He is credited as singlehandedly turning the tides in wars, just by which side he chooses to support.
  • Proficient CQC Fighter - Going hand-in-hand with his intelligence, Ocelot is a very proficient user of CQC, which he had mastered to the point of stalemating the actual creator of the style in unarmed combat, just by watching him do it.
  • Peak Human Physical Conditioning - Ocelot may not look it, but his physical power is crushing. Even at 70 years old, he can be seen leaving fist-shaped indents in steel, and easily dodging bullets.
  • Highly Skilled At Stealth - A lesser known skill of Ocelot's is his stealth. I mean, it's Metal Gear Solid, of course he's gonna be sneaky. Ocelot's showings in this area are limited, but he has been shown capable of getting the drop on characters with enhanced senses, and is often tasked with infiltrating some of the most secure and heavily guarded facilities in the world for the sake of his mission.
  • Master-Class Sharpshooter - For all his skills and knowledge, Adam only truly shines when he has a revolver in his hand. Much like Deadshot, he has only ever missed when the target he's firing at moves faster than the bullets he fires. Ocelot's accuracy is always dead-on: where he aims, he hits, and he doesn't need any autoaiming-helmet like Floyd does to do it. Specifically, Ocelot specializes as a trickshot, and is the self-monickered "master of ricochet". He claims to "understand the bullets" and "make them go where (he) wants." Finally, complimenting Ocelot's perfect marksmanship is his uncanny speed. In true cowboy fashion, Ocelot is unbeatable at a quickdraw.

Equipment

  • Revolver(s) - Ocelot carries around dozens of revolvers holstered all over his body in order to circumvent the gun's lengthy reload time.
  • Ammo Belt - In personal battles, Ocelot will enjoy the thrill of reloading while under fire, and always makes sure to keep plenty of ammunition.
  • THOR .45 - 70 - Under his "Liquid Ocelot" persona, Adam made frequent use of this powerful HandCannon.

Strategy

This is very much a battle of sniper vs sniper, but with pistols. Whereas Floyd and Adam both have uncanny skill with firearms, I feel Ocelot holds several key advantages that will lead to his victory, whereas the advantages Deadshot holds, Ocelot has the skills and the means to overcome. I'll get this out there right off the bat: this is NOT Ocelot's accuracy vs Deadshot's accuracy. It should be a given that either character is skilled enough to headshot a human-sized target from a fair distance away. Instead, what I will focus on is: speed, tactics, stealth, and H2H. When two characters are matched evenly in accuracy, these are the things that determine the winner.

I will be blunt - Ocelot should win because he is a bullet timer, whereas Floyd barely classifies as "athletic human". I see this battle ending in a split second: both characters draw their weapon, both characters aim, both characters fire - here's where they diverge - Floyd falls dead to a headshot, whereas Ocelot narrowly dodged to the side.

Deadshot is a great marksman, but that doesn't make his bullets travel any faster. And I don't think his mask is bulletproof like his costume (correct me if I'm wrong).

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5:00 - 6:30 Revolver Ocelot fights Solid Snake to a standstill. This is similar to Deadshot vs Deathstroke, but whereas the latter two weren't fast enough to dodge each other's gunfire, Ocelot managed to dodge every round that Snake fired. And this is a prolonged gunfight. Snake had plenty of time to time his shots and trap Ocelot, but Ocelot was just too quick. Keep in mind, Solid Snake has tagged at least two speedsters in the past.

If the mask is bullet proof, I have no doubt Floyd will be in some incredible pain regardless. I mean, Deathstroke's fire nearly killed him, and the helmet can't be nearly as durable as the chest plate. If both characters take cover and continue fighting, Ocelot will probably have the advantage against a disoriented Deadshot. He can then end this with a clean ricochet around the corner before his hat hits the floor. Just like he does here.

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Deadshot can ricochet bullets too, but if Ocelot uses his stealth and disappears after they've gone behind cover, Floyd won't know where to aim.

To summarize, Ocelot has the advantage in that he can dodge Deadshot's bullets to an extent, whereas every shot Ocelot fires will hit it's mark. You posted that scan of Floyd avoiding a sniper round, and while it's far from unimpressive, he still had warning before the shot was fired. And even then, it's still a pretty big outlier. Maneuvering around everything in Solid Snake's arsenal at close range is a lot more impressive. I doubt Deadshot has the speed to avoid shots fired by Ocelot. Eventually, that armor is going to fail. And that's if the first headshot doesn't end him.

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#7  Edited By TheTrueBarryAllen

@nickzambuto:

Lets get this party started.

Born Adamska, Ocelot is the lovechild of legendary war hero The Boss and the superpowered mystic The Sorrow, two of the most skilled/powerful characters in the entire Metal Gear franchise. Having inherited all the best traits of this super soldier combo, Ocelot quickly rose through the ranks of the CIA, KGB, and GRU all at once, playing triple agent on every side of the iron curtain during the Cold War and manipulating the entire world for his own sadistic ends, all before finishing up his teenage years. Eventually, Ocelot grew bored with this role and became a mercenary, cutting a swath through the world's hot-spots as Naomi put it, and gaining an infamous reputation as one of the deadliest and most terrifying soldiers to walk the Earth. Ocelot's most defining trait is his sadism, preferring revolvers for their slow muzzle velocity which imbeds rounds into the target's body, inflicting much more pain and injury than modern pistols. Adamska is renowned on the battlefields for his sharpshooting, but among the world's governments and leaders, is feared for his unmatched brilliance, a cold and calculating strategist who is always several steps ahead of everybody else.

Interesting life, glad to get some background oh him. He'd get along with Deadshot just fine, cunning, cold, calculating, and accurate.

Though one point here has me question Ocelot & his ability to stand up to Deadshot. He's sadistic, he likes to play with his targets instead of offing them the first chance he gets, he monologues. In your description of him you state that he prefers revolvers due to the fact that they have a slower muzzle velocity, which imbeds the round into the targets body to inflict much more pain and a ton more injury than a modern pistol.

Deadshot on the other hand goes straight for the kill shot, always aiming for heart & head. He's a no-nonsense killer who gets the job done and then moves on to the next.

If Ocelot gets too cocky or decides he wants to play with Floyd a little bit then it's over, Deadshot has the reaction time and the drive to kill Ocelot before he can finish one of his little speeches.

Revolver Ocelot holds the title of the smartest character in the entire Metal Gear Universe. The world's major powers fear him - at least when he's not pretending to be on their side - and his tactics on the battlefield have helped to propel his name into legend. He is credited as singlehandedly turning the tides in wars, just by which side he chooses to support

I'll admit, Deadshot isn't holding the title for the smartest character in the DCU, however he's still incredibly smart and a cunning strategist. There was a reason that Waller made him the head of the Suicide Squad, he was the only one that could hold everyone else in line during their missions, he's able to control the chaos.

Proficient CQC Fighter - Going hand-in-hand with his intelligence, Ocelot is a very proficient user of CQC, which he had mastered to the point of stalemating the actual creator of the style in unarmed combat, just by watching him do it.

This is really the only department in which I believe Ocelot outclasses Deadshot, as Deadshot usually doesn't allow his targets to get that close to him. Deadshot is still capable of fighting up close, I mean, his weapons are mounted to his wrists, it's only a matter of unloading while he swings his fists.

Peak Human Physical Conditioning - Ocelot may not look it, but his physical power is crushing. Even at 70 years old, he can be seen leaving fist-shaped indents in steel, and easily dodging bullets.

Let's hope that Ocelot is a speedster, because he's gonna need some top notch reflexes to avoid Deadshot's bullets.

Highly Skilled At Stealth - A lesser known skill of Ocelot's is his stealth. I mean, it's Metal Gear Solid, of course he's gonna be sneaky. Ocelot's showings in this area are limited, but he has been shown capable of getting the drop on characters with enhanced senses, and is often tasked with infiltrating some of the most secure and heavily guarded facilities in the world for the sake of his mission

Ocelot & Deadshot both have stealth abilities, Deadshot commonly deals with Batman, who is indeed an incredibly stealth character. Deadshot's also had to infiltrate some top notch facilities while doing work with the Suicide Squad. I think they're quite equal in this area, and as you said, showings in this area are limited. We can really only base assumptions on their job descriptions.

Master-Class Sharpshooter - For all his skills and knowledge, Adam only truly shines when he has a revolver in his hand. Much like Deadshot, he has only ever missed when the target he's firing at moves faster than the bullets he fires. Ocelot's accuracy is always dead-on: where he aims, he hits, and he doesn't need any autoaiming-helmet like Floyd does to do it. Specifically, Ocelot specializes as a trickshot, and is the self-monickered "master of ricochet". He claims to "understand the bullets" and "make them go where (he) wants." Finally, complimenting Ocelot's perfect marksmanship is his uncanny speed. In true cowboy fashion, Ocelot is unbeatable at a quickdraw.

Deadshot's shown that he can hit targets that move faster than his bullets, it's all a matter of keeping your aim ahead of the target. He's got two instances of tagging speedsters, which I'll show later.

As for Floyd's helmet, he doesn't require it, heck it's mostly there for protection and because it allows him to send & receive communications. I posted scans above of Deadshot hitting targets dead on while blindfolded, I'll post them again though since they're actually countering a point.

Here he kills an entire room, while blindfolded.

I'd also like to point out that he isn't just spraying & praying, in all of the shots you see he's hitting them in the head & the heart.

This set of scans is essential because it shows that Deadshot is actually training while blindfolded, so he doesn't need the mask as mentioned before.

Also this is a good showing of Captain Boomerang, who was fully capable of hitting Deadshots bullets with tiny paperclips that resembled boomerangs. Deadshot later told Captain Boomerang that he better not do it again, heck everyone on the Squad knows not to piss Deadshot off.

In terms of 'Trickshots' Deadshot doesn't really 'specialize' in them, but he's fully capable of performing them.

No Caption Provided

Ocelot carries around dozens of revolvers holstered all over his body in order to circumvent the gun's lengthy reload time.

This is a disadvantage for Ocelot.

  1. He uses 6 shooters, 6 shots and he's got to unholster one of his other revolvers, if Deadshot ends up shooting one of the holsters then he's at a loss and he's going to have to reload.

  2. Deadshot's weapons have a much higher ammo capacity. His actual clip size is never stated but considering he's gone full-auto with his wrist pistols on several occasions it's got to be more than 6 shots.

  3. It should also be noted that Deadshots 'reload' time would be much quicker, if it even comes down to reloading. He's able to switch ammunition types via voice command. He has his regular magnum slugs, armor piercing rounds, and explosive rounds. Ocelots revolve may pack a punch, but it won't be an explosive punch.

In the scans above he switches ammo types through voice command.

Ammo Belt - In personal battles, Ocelot will enjoy the thrill of reloading while under fire, and always makes sure to keep plenty of ammunition.

If Deadshot ends up shooting that ammo belt then it'll fall right off.

THOR .45 - 70 - Under his "Liquid Ocelot" persona, Adam made frequent use of this powerful HandCannon.

Sounds pretty powerful, I'm still betting that Deadshot's explosive rounds pack more of a punch.

This is very much a battle of sniper vs sniper, but with pistols. Whereas Floyd and Adam both have uncanny skill with firearms, I feel Ocelot holds several key advantages that will lead to his victory, whereas the advantages Deadshot holds, Ocelot has the skills and the means to overcome. I'll get this out there right off the bat: this is NOT Ocelot's accuracy vs Deadshot's accuracy. It should be a given that either character is skilled enough to headshot a human-sized target from a fair distance away. Instead, what I will focus on is: speed, tactics, stealth, and H2H. When two characters are matched evenly in accuracy, these are the things that determine the winner.

It is indeed quite the battle, though Ocelot is in over his head here.

I will be blunt - Ocelot should win because he is a bullet timer, whereas Floyd barely classifies as "athletic human". I see this battle ending in a split second: both characters draw their weapon, both characters aim, both characters fire - here's where they diverge - Floyd falls dead to a headshot, whereas Ocelot narrowly dodged to the side.

Floyd may not be a 'speedster' but he's got top notch reaction times. As I stated earlier he can count the beats of a humming birds wings, which is 20 - 80 beats PER SECOND.

The Captain Boomerang in the scans above is Owen Mercer, the son of Digger Harkness & Meloni Thawne.

He is connected to the Speedforce, thus granting him super speed. Now, I don't want this to turn into a Captain Boomerang II respect thread but I figure it'd be useful to show Owen's speed, so that the two scans above can be appreciated more than they already are.

Here Owen is running in the face of Mach 1 winds, which puts his speed slightly over 761 MPH.

Owen was also able to take down a clone of Jay Garrick, so he's got some quick Combat Speed as well.

All of this being said, Deadshot was able to keep his barrel focused on Owen, and would've been able to blast him into oblivion with a well placed head shot. I have a feeling he'd be able to tag Ocelot here who doesn't actually have super speed.

In the two scans above Deadshot killed another speedster. He was also able to shoot her incredibly quick projectiles in mid air. This also displays Deadshot not toying with his targets, he goes straight for the kill and doesn't care to give any sort of "speech" before he pulls the trigger.

Deadshot is a great marksman, but that doesn't make his bullets travel any faster. And I don't think his mask is bulletproof like his costume (correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm actually quite sure that Ocelot is going to be firing slower than Deadshot, as the Wrist Pistols have a much higher ROF than Ocelot's revolvers, you said it yourself that he takes the slower firing pistols because they cause more pain.

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As we can both see from the scan above, Deadshot is going to be putting out more fire than Ocelot, and they've both got the same level of Marksmanship, and Deadshot is the one covered in bullet proof armor.

Its interesting that you bring up the bullet proof helmet. Deadshot's helmet has several layers, it's bullet proof but before that layer is a blood layer. This layer makes it look like the shot does indeed kill Deadshot due to the blood that pours out of the mask, it's actually just a trick so Deadshot can catch people off guard or escape when the person who shoots him leaves.

The scans above show how this work, heck Batman eventually used this same technology in one of his suits. If Ocelot thinks he's downed Floyd due to a headshot he's wrong, he's very wrong, and he'll pay the price because of it.

Revolver Ocelot fights Solid Snake to a standstill. This is similar to Deadshot vs Deathstroke, but whereas the latter two weren't fast enough to dodge each other's gunfire, Ocelot managed to dodge every round that Snake fired. And this is a prolonged gunfight. Snake had plenty of time to time his shots and trap Ocelot, but Ocelot was just too quick. Keep in mind, Solid Snake has tagged at least two speedsters in the past.

The Deadshot & Deathstroke fight was due to a long and bitter rivalry. They were going for mutual destruction there, in most instances they both tend to dodge attacks. Deadshot's reaction time should give him the edge over Ocelot. Deadshot's been able to tag speedsters as well, as I showed in the scans above.

While Ocelot may have been able to dodge those rounds Snake was probably being careful due to the fact that there was a man strapped to a C4 trap in the middle of the room, it's not really a battle in which they both had free range to use whatever tactic they decided, and Snake was not in the position to risk it all.

If the mask is bullet proof, I have no doubt Floyd will be in some incredible pain regardless. I mean, Deathstroke's fire nearly killed him, and the helmet can't be nearly as durable as the chest plate. If both characters take cover and continue fighting, Ocelot will probably have the advantage against a disoriented Deadshot. He can then end this with a clean ricochet around the corner before his hat hits the floor. Just like he does here.

The mask is bullet proof, and Floyd was just fine after getting shot in the face. Deadshot's fire broke his ribs because he took an entire Uzi Clip to the stomach, but the point from that was that it didn't kill him.

The shot that hit his mask was also a more powerful shot than the ones that hit his chest, so his helmet is just as strong as the rest of the suit.

Deadshot can ricochet bullets too, but if Ocelot uses his stealth and disappears after they've gone behind cover, Floyd won't know where to aim.

Both characters have stealth. Heck, in the scan where Deadshot fought against 9 Meta Humans he was able to evade their fire & take them down one by one. He's not just going to stand there and wonder where Ocelot went, he'll go and move into the shadows as well.

To summarize, Ocelot has the advantage in that he can dodge Deadshot's bullets to an extent, whereas every shot Ocelot fires will hit it's mark. You posted that scan of Floyd avoiding a sniper round, and while it's far from unimpressive, he still had warning before the shot was fired. And even then, it's still a pretty big outlier. Maneuvering around everything in Solid Snake's arsenal at close range is a lot more impressive. I doubt Deadshot has the speed to avoid shots fired by Ocelot. Eventually, that armor is going to fail. And that's if the first headshot doesn't end him.

Alright, I'm going to take this one in sections.

  1. Both of our combatants can dodge bullets. Deadshot has the reaction time to follow speedsters and tag them, Deadshot doesn't hold back.
  2. Ocelot and Deadshot have around the same level of accuracy. Deadshot has better weapons and a quicker rate of fire. Deadshot also doesn't have to hold anything in his hands when he fights, his guns are mounted. I see no reason why Deadshot would miss and EVERY shot that Ocelot fires would hit it's mark.
  3. Floyd may not have a ton of dodging feats, but that's because he never lets it get to that point in the fight. He takes his foes down before they can fire shots, he's got quite the quick draw as well. He's also got some AOE attacks such as his explosive rounds that could really rock Ocelot's world.
  4. Deadshot has the speed to dodge just as many shots as Ocelot does. It's just that Deadshot can take more shots than Ocelot.
  5. Deadshot's armor may EVENTUALLY fail but you're going to have to pack quite the punch. Deadshot isn't going to just stand there and take bullets, he'll be dodging and firing right back at Ocelot, and having bullet proof armor is much better than hacing no armor at all.
  6. A headshot will not kill Deadshot, his helmet protects him from that, though one would kill Ocelot.

So here's why I think Ocelot is outclassed in this match.

  1. Deadshot's reaction time is INCREDIBLE. The fact that he can track speedsters and then actually hit them with his bullets is fantastic. Ocelot may be able to stalemate Snake, but in that battle Snake was worrying about the trap in the middle of the room. Ocelot was commanding that situation yet he still couldn't get the win.
  2. Deadshot is going to have much more firepower. He's got a higher rate of fire, higher ammo capacity, and more options. His explosive rounds would be enough to shake Ocelot up, if Deadshot aims for the feet and misses because Ocelot dodges it'll still shake him up a bit (explosive & whatnot). Ocelot only has his revolvers.
  3. Deadshot has armor, Ocelot does not. Both combatants are likely to get tagged eventually, Deadshot can take more punishment than Ocelot can. Armor > No Armor.
  4. Deadshot doesn't play with his targets, he's in it for the kill and it's over. From what you've described about Ocelot it seems he's more sadistic, he "enjoys the thrill of reloading during battle", he's more likely to play with his target instead of killing him the first chance he gets. This will be his ultimate downfall, the moment Deadshot lines up the shot he's going to take it and Ocelot is going to end up dead.

I look forward to your counter post ^_^

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Owen and Floyd are some funny ass dudes...one plays around too much, the other is scared sh*tless when he sees batman...

your post was awsome, even if you don't win in the end, you get my vote of confidence just for those scans, lol oh comic book shenanigans, you never fail to appease.

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#9  Edited By renamed040924

That's a really good post if you're debating against Bullseye, but I'm afraid most of your argument doesn't apply, since it applies more than a few misconceptions about Revolver Ocelot. He is not your typical comic book marksman type character, rather, Adam holds a plethora of skills and abilities that all go hand-in-hand with his signature marksmanship, to create a truly formidable opponent, to say the least. First and foremost, Ocelot has never been portrayed as arrogant, I can not stress that enough. Just because he knows how to enjoy a fight, that does not mean he doesn't know how to end one. His sadism isn't in the same vein as, say Carnage, who likes to watch people suffer slowly. Rather, Ocelot's sadism is shown through pure brutality, and cruelty.

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In the clip above, Ocelot kills both his longtime friend and partner Colonel Gurlukovich, and Marine Commander Scott Dolph, emptying his revolver directly into both their hearts despite his vision being obscured by the coat. He then proceeds to draw a new revolver and gun down the squadron of Marines who have him surrounded (the soldiers' guns was already aimed by the time Ocelot moved, meaning he drew his revolver, spun around, aimed, and pulled the trigger 6 times all before a single one of them could even twitch their finger)

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Draws his revolver and shoots Fortune straight through the heart from a decent distance away before she can pull the trigger.

The reason I post these clips is to show that it's not in Ocelot's character to waste time. He always goes for the kill shot, just like Lawton. He wouldn't have amassed his reputation as an unbeatable strategist by being cocky and taking risks.

Now before I go on, let me preface this whole argument with exactly which advantages I believe the two marksman hold over each other. Floyd is better in pure accuracy, I'll be the first to concede that right away. You set a target 1,000 feet away and tell them both to hit the bullseye, my money is on Deadshot every time. However, that is the ONLY advantage Deadshot holds; and it's not even a very important one since I doubt Ocelot will miss the kill shot at this range. Shalashaska would win this match by virtue of tactics, trickshots, intelligence, CQC, and speed.

Let's continue with my original strategy. They both draw, they both fire, Ocelot SHOULD be quick enough to move out of the way - like I said, the bullet won't move any faster than a regular bullet, so as long as Deadshot only gets off one or two, Ocelot should be safe. Meanwhile Floyd takes a dive and the blood layer bursts. Personally I think I win right there. Deadshot's armor is never 100% bulletproof, just bullet resistant, and that headshot he survived knocked him completely out cold. So those scans are actually working against you. If Ocelot goes up to inspect the still-breathing prey, he can deduce what's going on and finish the job. Floyd won't really be in any position to defend himself at that point.

And that's a best case scenario for Deadshot! Not to undersell DC's premier marksman, but there's no beating Shalashaska at the quickdraw. I've already posted two instances of Ocelot gunning down a roomful of soldiers before a single one can fire back. That's kind of his schtick, actually. Tracking Owen Mercer is impressive, but he doesn't move any faster than a bullet, and Ocelot has dodged entire barrages of bullets from two fantastic marksmen, once in his youth and once in his age (Naked Snake and Solid Snake respectively)

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Here Ocelot was quick enough to dodge Olga's slash the second she entered his peripheral vision. The Cyborg Ninja is probably just as fast as Mercer, or at least her sword slashes are. Assault Rifle bullets move a lot faster than just mach 1 (Owen's limit), and she was fast enough to deflect a whole barrage of them.

As for the other speedster Deadshot tagged, it's not entirely impressive. She could only move in short bursts, if you read the scans Floyd himself states that he had to shoot her when she slowed down.

(Also, going back to Ocelot's supposed arrogance, he sure as hell wasn't too slow here. He identified Raiden, said one sentence, and them immediately went to kill him. No games.)

So my point with all this is, you talked a lot about how great Deadshot's reflexes are, but really when you look into it, they're nothing better than any peak human. The Owen Mercer instance gets a lot of hype just because Owen is classified as a "speedster". Well by feats, he isn't any better than a Cyborg Ninja, and Ocelot reacted to one of those just fine. Hell, Vamp is tons faster than Owen Mercer by feats, and Old Snake was able to shoot him. Revolver Ocelot is a far better marksman than Snake.

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If you wanna talk about reflexes, I'd like to see Deadshot react to a blast of lightning, let alone actually outrace it.

Like I said, Revolver Ocelot is unbeatable on the draw.

Keeping all these feats in mind (dodging bullets fired by Solid Snake who is skilled enough to tag a hypersonic speedster, dodging a slash from the Cyborg Ninja after it's literally inches away from his arm, and beating a blast of lightning on the draw after the lightning was fired. He was even able to time his shots to shoot through the turbines of a MiG and hit the engine, as I'll show below) Ocelot definitely has better reflexes than Deadshot.

Next is stealth. I feel you're underestimating just how big an impact this is going to have on the battle. Deadshot is used to overtaking covert black ops assassination missions, but he never actually uses stealth to finish them. He just bursts in and shoots everybody. That fight against the nine metahumans isn't much of a stealth feat since they saw him the instant they actually went inside the warehouse. By comparison, sneaking is a simple tactic for Ocelot.

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In the above clip, Ocelot is shown infiltrating the CIA HQ, and then as if that isn't hard enough, makes his way through the secret Philosophers base underneath the ground, assassinating the DIA and stealing the Philosopher's Legacy, when entire nations had been trying to do the same for decades and always failed. If Deadshot had the same mission, he would have had the Suicide Squad for backup and then left a trail of bodies in his wake. Not like Ocelot, who ghosted his way through and then killed the DCI in a way indistinguishable from suicide, ensuring that nobody would ever know he was there.

This is a BIG disadvantage for Deadshot. I don't think Floyd has enough awareness to detect Ocelot if they both went into stealth mode (Ocelot has gotten the drop on EVA, Raiden, and even Solid Snake), whereas the Russian's senses are superhuman for all intents and purposes, and will not be surprised by Floyd.

Once Lawton loses sight of Ocelot, the game is already won. Shalashaska is easily capable of performing multiple trickshots from behind cover, making it impossible for Deadshot to dodge as he'll have no idea where the bullets are coming from. Floyd's armor is still a problem, but Ocelot can probably stack damage right over his heart or head, and eventually penetrate. Yes, as a matter of fact, he IS skilled enough to do this. His ricochets are often more accurate than his straight shots, believe it or not.

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He hit the gun perfectly out of Raiden's hand, making no contact with the hand itself. That's hard to do if he just aimed straight!

CQC is the next big advantage Ocelot has. I use the phrase CQC and not H2H, because CQC is the name of the actual style Ocelot specializes in.

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Here, Ocelot is able to match Big Boss, the creator of the style, with his only training consisting of watching John perform a few techniques beforehand.

Deadshot is still capable of fighting up close, I mean, his weapons are mounted to his wrists, it's only a matter of unloading while he swings his fists.

It's funny you mention that, because CQC - again, the style Ocelot specializes in - literally revolves around the use of firearms and weapons in the midst of hand to hand combat. Shalashaska isn't just a guy who can punch you in the face, he's a guy who can punch you in the face while simultaneously shooting you in the stomach.

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Here he absolutely dominates Old Snake, going into the battle unarmed and leaving with all of Snake's weapons aimed back at him.

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Here's an example of Old Snake's CQC, just to cement the impressiveness of Ocelot destroying him.

Hell, you can even see Ocelot get the better of Raiden in that clip with the trickshot I posted above, despite Raiden being incomparably stronger, faster, and more agile than the old man. Clearly, Ocelot can throw a punch just as well as shoot a gun. So while shooting at close range is a very viable strategy for Deadshot, he'll be attempting it against a man who's spent decades training in the same thing. I'm sure Adam can counter whatever maneuver Floyd attempts.

Let's hope that Ocelot is a speedster, because he's gonna need some top notch reflexes to avoid Deadshot's bullets.

Honestly, he was dodging Snake's shots easy, and Snake has tagged characters like Vamp and Olga Gurlukovich, hypersonic/supersonic speedsters. Ocelot's speed should AT THE LEAST cancel out with Deadshot's armor. You said that Snake couldn't fight his hardest because he was afraid of shooting the Armstech President in the middle of the room, but Baker really wasn't in the way at all.

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You can see there's plenty of room to maneuver, and Baker is pretty far off.

Ocelot & Deadshot both have stealth abilities, Deadshot commonly deals with Batman, who is indeed an incredibly stealth character.

And when they fight, stealth is usually the way Batman beats Floyd.

Deadshot's also had to infiltrate some top notch facilities while doing work with the Suicide Squad. I think they're quite equal in this area, and as you said, showings in this area are limited. We can really only base assumptions on their job descriptions.

When I said Ocelot was limited, I meant in comparison to other characters in the series like Snake and Raiden. Adam still has feats of infiltrating the CIA, Philosopher's base, getting the drop on EVA, and surprising Solid Snake himself. Safe to say he can probably surprise Deadshot.

This is a disadvantage for Ocelot.

  1. He uses 6 shooters, 6 shots and he's got to unholster one of his other revolvers, if Deadshot ends up shooting one of the holsters then he's at a loss and he's going to have to reload.

As Ocelot (rather famously) stated in his introduction cutscene, "6 shots. More than enough to kill anything that moves."

He can also unholster imperceptibly fast, as I've shown, so this isn't much of a drawback. If all else fails, Ocelot CAN reload rather quickly, I feel I should point out.

  1. Deadshot's weapons have a much higher ammo capacity. His actual clip size is never stated but considering he's gone full-auto with his wrist pistols on several occasions it's got to be more than 6 shots.

Fine, 6 shots aren't good enough for ya eh? How about 12.

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Ocelot is rather skilled at duel wielding his revolvers.

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Dayum.

And don't take this as Ocelot being cocky, because he WAS cocky during Operation Snake Eater. The guy was only 18 and not only ranked Major in GRU, but was highly ranked in the KGB and CIA at the same time, all at once. He had a reason to be cocky! But once he gets on in his years, this arrogance clearly goes away (I reference you again to the Raiden/Ninja seen)

  1. It should also be noted that Deadshots 'reload' time would be much quicker, if it even comes down to reloading. He's able to switch ammunition types via voice command. He has his regular magnum slugs, armor piercing rounds, and explosive rounds. Ocelots revolve may pack a punch, but it won't be an explosive punch.

That's why he has the THOR, which is a super-hax explosive hand cannon that kills every single enemy in the game, armor or no, with a single shot. One slug from that and Floyd is dead.

The Captain Boomerang in the scans above is Owen Mercer, the son of Digger Harkness & Meloni Thawne.

He is connected to the Speedforce, thus granting him super speed.

Owen's weakness is his inability to maintain that speed. He can only move in bursts, which Deadshot seems to have exploited in their encounter. Same goes for the other speedster. Shooting lightning is a lot more impressive, if I can be blunt.

Its interesting that you bring up the bullet proof helmet. Deadshot's helmet has several layers, it's bullet proof but before that layer is a blood layer. This layer makes it look like the shot does indeed kill Deadshot due to the blood that pours out of the mask, it's actually just a trick so Deadshot can catch people off guard or escape when the person who shoots him leaves.

A headshot still completely KOd him. In my initial post I theorized that Floyd would be slightly disoriented, but now that you post these scans, my argument is actually stronger.

Deadshot's been able to tag speedsters as well, as I showed in the scans above.

Two speedsters, neither of which have any feats that put them above Vamp, whom was shot multiple times by Solid Snake, an inferior marksman to Revolver Ocelot.

Safe to say, Adam can repeat any of those feats Deadshot has performed.

I'm actually quite sure that Ocelot is going to be firing slower than Deadshot, as the Wrist Pistols have a much higher ROF than Ocelot's revolvers,

Technologically-wise, revolvers may not be the most effective weapon, but Ocelot's skill with them is uncanny.

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He's quite capable of firing at automatic-speeds by rapidly resetting the hammer. Coupled with all those other feats I've posted of him emptying his revolver in moments, and it becomes clear who has the speed edge.

Sounds pretty powerful, I'm still betting that Deadshot's explosive rounds pack more of a punch.

I disagree. The THOR will go right through Floyd's armor and destroy his insides. Ocelot however, can tank an explosion or two.

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He takes the full brunt of pounds of C4 and just gets back up. Pain tolerance is another thing entirely, he barely felt anything from having his entire hand sliced off.

  1. Deadshot has armor, Ocelot does not. Both combatants are likely to get tagged eventually, Deadshot can take more punishment than Ocelot can. Armor > No Armor.

I feel this is a very important factor for me to address. YES, I admit, Deadshot's armor does give him a strong advantage - just as Ocelot's agility gives him a strong advantage. Floyd is fast but can't avoid many of Ocelot's shots, meanwhile Adam is tough, but can't tank many of Deadshot's bullets. They each need to rely on their own ways of avoiding damage. For Deadshot, his armor will protect him to a certain degree, but every gunshot is like a strong punch. He was nearly killed by the sheer concussive force of Deathstroke's uzi, gunshots hitting his armor break bone, and a bullet aimed at his head was enough to knock him out cold. Meanwhile, Ocelot has shown the speed to survive a prolonged gunfight against Solid Snake, so he's a pro at bullet dodging, and it's not like there isn't plenty of cover for him to make use of. His stealth is another factor to mind. However in the end, the old man isn't going to last long if dodging is his only option. They both have a means to avoid damage, which I personally see as canceling each other out.

That's my say. Deadshot is more accurate, no doubt about it, but against the versatility of Revolver Ocelot - I mean, Adam is an exceptional strategist, renowned spy and expert infiltrator, uncanny trickshot; he can hide and take Floyd by surprise, or unleash a barrage of ricochets going in every direction, hell he can just run up and beat Deadshot to death with his bare hands - Lawton is out of his league. Revolver is more skilled, better trained, smarter, stronger, better! FOXHOUND was the most powerful military unit in the world, reserved specially for a small number of handpicked, elite superhuman soldiers. Ocelot joined this group, based solely off his marksmanship. That means that his skill with revolvers, is literally considered a meta human ability. I think that sums thing up.

I'm afraid I won't be able to reply anymore. Take your time with a rebuttal and open this up for votes once your done. I regret having to leave so soon, hopefully we can have another match one day soon! You were a great opponent and really had me going for a while. @thetruebarryallen Good Game!

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Ancient_0f_Days

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damn....MGS characters are hax

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MonsterStomp

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This is quite the entertaining debate.

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Wolverine008

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Cool debate.

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adhd_assassin

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Awesome. I'm interested to see how this plays out. Both are favorites in tmy villans list.

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@nickzambuto: Final post time, sounds grand.

In the clip above, Ocelot kills both his longtime friend and partner Colonel Gurlukovich, and Marine Commander Scott Dolph, emptying his revolver directly into both their hearts despite his vision being obscured by the coat. He then proceeds to draw a new revolver and gun down the squadron of Marines who have him surrounded (the soldiers' guns was already aimed by the time Ocelot moved, meaning he drew his revolver, spun around, aimed, and pulled the trigger 6 times all before a single one of them could even twitch their finger)

I know he hit the man farthest away ( the one who pushed the other man ) in the heart but I'm not so sure he hit the man who was pushed in the heart, the angle at which he was at makes it rather questionable. As for the coat being there I'm not all that impressed, they were standing on a catwalk with the ability to move only forward or backward, so it's not like he had much of a chance for error there. As I've shown several times Deadshot has practiced shooting blindfolded and took down an entire mob without his sight lines. His speed was quite impressive when he killed the squad of marines, but those marines were a tad foolish for not firing when they had their chance.

Draws his revolver and shoots Fortune straight through the heart from a decent distance away before she can pull the trigger.

Once again, nice quick draw, but it's difficult to fully judge this without knowing more about Fortune? Does she have some sort of insane reaction time? The weapon she was using looked rather bulky, I'm not that surprised that Ocelot was able to shoot her in the heart.

It should also be noted that in all of these videos thus far he's gone for the heart, an area of Deadshot that is protected by bullets. If he manages to tag Deadshot in the heart it wouldn't kill him.

The reason I post these clips is to show that it's not in Ocelot's character to waste time. He always goes for the kill shot, just like Lawton. He wouldn't have amassed his reputation as an unbeatable strategist by being cocky and taking risks.

He shot for the heart, a foolish move for him in this fight since Deadshot's heart is protected. Your initial argument said he was going to be gunning for Floyd's head, which I haven't seen him do at all so far. Also, Deadshot's mask is bullet proof, in the scans that I posted earlier I showed that, he was only so damaged because he was hit by an INCREDIBLY powerful bullet.

Now before I go on, let me preface this whole argument with exactly which advantages I believe the two marksman hold over each other. Floyd is better in pure accuracy, I'll be the first to concede that right away. You set a target 1,000 feet away and tell them both to hit the bullseye, my money is on Deadshot every time. However, that is the ONLY advantage Deadshot holds; and it's not even a very important one since I doubt Ocelot will miss the kill shot at this range. Shalashaska would win this match by virtue of tactics, trickshots, intelligence, CQC, and speed.

You're right in the fact that Floyd has better accuracy, an asset which when combined with his reaction time should be more than enough to combat Ocelot's speed.

This 'Kill Shot' that you keep talking about isn't actually a kill shot, Deadshot's armor has been shown to block bullets, he took an entire Uzi Clip and survived. Sure, he had the wind knocked out of him and had a few broken ribs but it didn't kill him, he'd still be able to shoot at Ocelot if he hadn't taken him down by this point.

Plus, Ocelot's 'Kill Shot' is aimed for the heart, he's gone for the heart in all of the videos thus far and doing so will do nothing to Deadshot, his body armor would protect him from it, and he'll still be shooting right back at Ocelot, with more bullets, at a greater speed.

Sure, Ocelot has the CQB advantage but it's not enough to win him this fight, especially against Deadshot who wouldn't let Ocelot get that close to him.

Let's continue with my original strategy. They both draw, they both fire, Ocelot SHOULD be quick enough to move out of the way - like I said, the bullet won't move any faster than a regular bullet, so as long as Deadshot only gets off one or two, Ocelot should be safe. Meanwhile Floyd takes a dive and the blood layer bursts. Personally I think I win right there. Deadshot's armor is never 100% bulletproof, just bullet resistant, and that headshot he survived knocked him completely out cold. So those scans are actually working against you. If Ocelot goes up to inspect the still-breathing prey, he can deduce what's going on and finish the job. Floyd won't really be in any position to defend himself at that point.

Ocelot may be able to move out of the way, however Floyd has two Wrist Pistols. If he sets one pistol on where Ocelot CURRENTLY is and then the other on where Ocelot WILL be then it's game over for Ocelot.

Deadshot was able to track those speedsters because he is able to shoot in front of them, he predicts where they'll move to. It doesn't matter if Ocelot ends up dodging the barrage from one pistol only to move into the barrage from another, his speed is taken down by Deadshots superior firepower & reaction time. Deadshot knows not to shoot directly at a moving target, you shoot in front of the moving target so it moves into the bullets.

As for the helmet, I've stated that it's bullet proof and shown that it is. He was hit by a much more powerful shot than what Ocelot is packing, hence why it did so much damage to him, he should be able to take several shots to the dome before hurting that bad, at least he can take more than Ocelot would be able to.

If Ocelot somehow DOES manage to knock Floyd into the zone of major pain and causes him to fall to the ground he won't be able to TELL that Floyd is still breathing. Floyd and Bruce had a conversation within those scans that explain that Floyd's suit is insulated and it masks his breathing, thus making him appear dead. He can still catch Ocelot off guard.

And that's a best case scenario for Deadshot! Not to undersell DC's premier marksman, but there's no beating Shalashaska at the quickdraw. I've already posted two instances of Ocelot gunning down a roomful of soldiers before a single one can fire back. That's kind of his schtick, actually. Tracking Owen Mercer is impressive, but he doesn't move any faster than a bullet, and Ocelot has dodged entire barrages of bullets from two fantastic marksmen, once in his youth and once in his age (Naked Snake and Solid Snake respectively)

I'll admit, Ocelot is probably going to get a shot or two off, but Deadshots armor can protect him from that.

Tracking Owen is incredibly impressive, and it's Ocelot's downfall. Ocelot may move fast, but Deadshot can predict where he'll be and keep himself on target.

As for Owen not being able to move faster than a bullet I'd contest that, he was able to hit all of Deadshot's bullets using tiny paperclip boomerangs. If he can perceive those bullets in order to actually HIT them with his own projectiles I'm sure that he can move at speeds faster than a bullet. He also moved AS Floyd was shooting him in that first scan, so he dodged a point blank bullet, of course Floyd did that just to startle him, not to kill him.

Here Ocelot was quick enough to dodge Olga's slash the second she entered his peripheral vision. The Cyborg Ninja is probably just as fast as Mercer, or at least her sword slashes are. Assault Rifle bullets move a lot faster than just mach 1 (Owen's limit), and she was fast enough to deflect a whole barrage of them.

Impressive, however like I said, aim where Ocelot will be not where he currently is.

Owens' limit isn't Mach 1 by the way. He ran AGAINST Mach 1 winds, if his limit was Mach 1 then he would've been at a standstill, he can clearly surpass Mach 1 speeds.

As for the other speedster Deadshot tagged, it's not entirely impressive. She could only move in short bursts, if you read the scans Floyd himself states that he had to shoot her when she slowed down.

He tracked her, that's my argument here. He was able to keep his eye on her and knew where she would be and shot where she was the minute she slowed down.

He can do the same thing to Ocelot, it's a bullet dodgers nightmare.

So my point with all this is, you talked a lot about how great Deadshot's reflexes are, but really when you look into it, they're nothing better than any peak human. The Owen Mercer instance gets a lot of hype just because Owen is classified as a "speedster". Well by feats, he isn't any better than a Cyborg Ninja, and Ocelot reacted to one of those just fine. Hell, Vamp is tons faster than Owen Mercer by feats, and Old Snake was able to shoot him. Revolver Ocelot is a far better marksman than Snake.

I'd say you're wrong. Deadshot has reaction times that are better than that of a peak human due to the fact that he can predict where his targets ( Some of which were moving faster than Mach 1 ) will be before they even know they'll be there.

Owen is classified as a speedster, and he deserves the title, if you could move faster than Mach 1 by running I think you'd call yourself a speedster too haha.

Sure, Ocelot reacted to the Cyborg Ninja, he's a fast person and I'm not denying that. I'm just stating that Deadshot would be able to bring him down by using one of his wrist pistols to cause Ocelot to dodge directly into the path of the second wrist pistol.

Also, I don't know who this Vamp person is but considering I haven't been given the context of the battle he had with Old Snake, and the fact that Old Snake isn't in this battle I don't see the relevance.

If you wanna talk about reflexes, I'd like to see Deadshot react to a blast of lightning, let alone actually outrace it.

Impressive, like I said, he HAS the quick draw skills and I admit that.

The guy with the lightning blasts seemed to be pretty weak after that attack, does he have much control over his power/how powerful is he?

Also, the term 'Outrace' makes it seem as if he was running away from it, all he did was cause projectiles to hit the blast as it was coming near him, impressive but he wasn't running from the lightning.

Keeping all these feats in mind (dodging bullets fired by Solid Snake who is skilled enough to tag a hypersonic speedster, dodging a slash from the Cyborg Ninja after it's literally inches away from his arm, and beating a blast of lightning on the draw after the lightning was fired. He was even able to time his shots to shoot through the turbines of a MiG and hit the engine, as I'll show below) Ocelot definitely has better reflexes than Deadshot.

The combined force of Deadshots automatic wrist pistols & his reaction speed > Ocelot's speed.

Fire an automatic barrage of explosive rounds causing Ocelot to dodge in one direction, directly into a barrage of rounds fired by his other blaster.

Ocelot dies.

Next is stealth. I feel you're underestimating just how big an impact this is going to have on the battle. Deadshot is used to overtaking covert black ops assassination missions, but he never actually uses stealth to finish them. He just bursts in and shoots everybody. That fight against the nine metahumans isn't much of a stealth feat since they saw him the instant they actually went inside the warehouse. By comparison, sneaking is a simple tactic for Ocelot.

A character may be stealthy, but just saying that they are stealthy doesn't mean they'll apply it to the battle. Explain to me HOW his stealth is going to help Ocelot win.

As for the 9 Meta Humans I had never posted it for it to be a stealth feat, it was more of a 'Look, he took down 9 Super Human begins and survived an attack that was supposed to kill him' moment.

In the above clip, Ocelot is shown infiltrating the CIA HQ, and then as if that isn't hard enough, makes his way through the secret Philosophers base underneath the ground, assassinating the DIA and stealing the Philosopher's Legacy, when entire nations had been trying to do the same for decades and always failed. If Deadshot had the same mission, he would have had the Suicide Squad for backup and then left a trail of bodies in his wake. Not like Ocelot, who ghosted his way through and then killed the DCI in a way indistinguishable from suicide, ensuring that nobody would ever know he was there.

Sneaky. Deadshot's missions don't typically tell him to kill nobody, his 'stealth missions' are to get in and get out, killing everyone there and then leaving before they get pinned with the blame.

This is a BIG disadvantage for Deadshot. I don't think Floyd has enough awareness to detect Ocelot if they both went into stealth mode (Ocelot has gotten the drop on EVA, Raiden, and even Solid Snake), whereas the Russian's senses are superhuman for all intents and purposes, and will not be surprised by Floyd.

He'd be able to track him based off the path of the shots that Ocelot fires. I know this probably isn't the best comparison but Deadshot has gotten the drop on Batman, on of the DCU's stealthiest characters, so there's that.

Once Lawton loses sight of Ocelot, the game is already won. Shalashaska is easily capable of performing multiple trickshots from behind cover, making it impossible for Deadshot to dodge as he'll have no idea where the bullets are coming from. Floyd's armor is still a problem, but Ocelot can probably stack damage right over his heart or head, and eventually penetrate. Yes, as a matter of fact, he IS skilled enough to do this. His ricochets are often more accurate than his straight shots, believe it or not.

Deadshot knows to move, and once he gets tagged by a bullet or two he'd be outta there. Deadshot also has the ability to trickshot & shoot blind so it's not as if he'd be helpless in this situation.

I do not believe that the game is already won if this were to happen.

Hell, you can even see Ocelot get the better of Raiden in that clip with the trickshot I posted above, despite Raiden being incomparably stronger, faster, and more agile than the old man. Clearly, Ocelot can throw a punch just as well as shoot a gun. So while shooting at close range is a very viable strategy for Deadshot, he'll be attempting it against a man who's spent decades training in the same thing. I'm sure Adam can counter whatever maneuver Floyd attempts

I've already admitted that Ocelot has the superior CQB stats. I mostly brought it up to state that Floyd isn't helpless in CQB & his Wrist Pistols would be firing a lot faster than Ocelots revolvers.

Honestly, he was dodging Snake's shots easy, and Snake has tagged characters like Vamp and Olga Gurlukovich, hypersonic/supersonic speedsters. Ocelot's speed should AT THE LEAST cancel out with Deadshot's armor. You said that Snake couldn't fight his hardest because he was afraid of shooting the Armstech President in the middle of the room, but Baker really wasn't in the way at all.

He was, and snake was firing a semi-automatic pistol, and he only had one of them.

I'm not going to say it again because I'm actually getting tired of writing the reason why Deadshot wins this battle.

( 1 Wrist Pistol to lure, 1 Wrist Pistol to track and Kill )

Baker was in the way, Snake was prevented from shooting directly across the arena and had to chase Ocelot down. Game Mechanics, yo.

As Ocelot (rather famously) stated in his introduction cutscene, "6 shots. More than enough to kill anything that moves."

He can also unholster imperceptibly fast, as I've shown, so this isn't much of a drawback. If all else fails, Ocelot CAN reload rather quickly, I feel I should point out.

6 Shots < Armor

Reload < Two Wrist Pistols with much higher ammo capacity

Fine, 6 shots aren't good enough for ya eh? How about 12.

He can probably keep up with ONE of Deadshot's blasters now!

That's why he has the THOR, which is a super-hax explosive hand cannon that kills every single enemy in the game, armor or no, with a single shot. One slug from that and Floyd is dead.

Fight vs 9 Meta Humans, Deadshot survived a blast that blew up an entire building. His armor can take it.

Owen's weakness is his inability to maintain that speed. He can only move in bursts, which Deadshot seems to have exploited in their encounter. Same goes for the other speedster. Shooting lightning is a lot more impressive, if I can be blunt.

He tracked Owen, and he tracked the other speedster. It'd be dumb to shoot at a target that can move faster than a bullet, you need to predict where the target will be and then shoot there, so the bullet still hits them.

You've got your opinions & I've got mine ^_^

A headshot still completely KOd him. In my initial post I theorized that Floyd would be slightly disoriented, but now that you post these scans, my argument is actually stronger.

Not quite sure it KO'd him, knocked him off his block though, that's for sure. I mean, he's got better durability than Ocelot does, and the shot that did that to him was much more powerful than anything in Ocelot's armory.

Two speedsters, neither of which have any feats that put them above Vamp, whom was shot multiple times by Solid Snake, an inferior marksman to Revolver Ocelot.

Safe to say, Adam can repeat any of those feats Deadshot has performed.

You haven't presented the conditions of the fight of Vamp vs Solid Snake, and this isn't a fight against Solid Snake. This is a fight against Ocelot who it seems at his best has STALEMATED Solid Snake.

I don't think we can say that Adam can repeat the feats unless we actually SEE him repeat the feats.

Technologically-wise, revolvers may not be the most effective weapon, but Ocelot's skill with them is uncanny.

Still, the revolvers are inferior to the Wrist Pistols, and Deadshot's skill with them is uncanny.

He's quite capable of firing at automatic-speeds by rapidly resetting the hammer. Coupled with all those other feats I've posted of him emptying his revolver in moments, and it becomes clear who has the speed edge.

He's got to use both hands to fire 6 shots at an automatic rate.

Deadshot can fire those 12 shots at the same time, and still has both of his hands free.

Deadshot > Ocelot in terms of speed advantage, at least in terms of ROF ( Rate of Fire )

He takes the full brunt of pounds of C4 and just gets back up. Pain tolerance is another thing entirely, he barely felt anything from having his entire hand sliced off.

Deadshot got hit by an explosion that took down an entire warehouse, he's got the armor and pain tolerance to match or even surpass Ocelot, and he's never actually had his hand sliced off, so that's a plus.

I feel this is a very important factor for me to address. YES, I admit, Deadshot's armor does give him a strong advantage - just as Ocelot's agility gives him a strong advantage. Floyd is fast but can't avoid many of Ocelot's shots, meanwhile Adam is tough, but can't tank many of Deadshot's bullets. They each need to rely on their own ways of avoiding damage. For Deadshot, his armor will protect him to a certain degree, but every gunshot is like a strong punch. He was nearly killed by the sheer concussive force of Deathstroke's uzi, gunshots hitting his armor break bone, and a bullet aimed at his head was enough to knock him out cold. Meanwhile, Ocelot has shown the speed to survive a prolonged gunfight against Solid Snake, so he's a pro at bullet dodging, and it's not like there isn't plenty of cover for him to make use of. His stealth is another factor to mind. However in the end, the old man isn't going to last long if dodging is his only option. They both have a means to avoid damage, which I personally see as canceling each other out.

Durability - Deadshot

Agility - Ocelot

Reaction Time - Tie

Rate of Fire - Deadshot

CQB - Ocelot

Accuracy - Deadshot

Deadshot has the durability to take more shots than Ocelot, and we both admit that. Ocelot has to use both of his hands to send out 6 shots at an automatic rate, all of which would be rendered useless by Deadshot's armor.

Ocelot fires 6 shots and then has to reload, Deadshot doesn't have that problem. Deadshot also have 2X the amount of firepower and a much higher rate of fire than Ocelot. If he tracks Ocelot with one wrist pistol and causes him to dodge then he can use his other wrist pistol to aim at where Ocelot will run to from dodging the other pistol while it fires.

Ocelot is unable to trap Deadshot in a trap like this, and Deadshot is able to counter Ocelot's agility with this tactic, it's how he beat the speedsters and it's how he'd beat Ocelot.

That's my say. Deadshot is more accurate, no doubt about it, but against the versatility of Revolver Ocelot - I mean, Adam is an exceptional strategist, renowned spy and expert infiltrator, uncanny trickshot; he can hide and take Floyd by surprise, or unleash a barrage of ricochets going in every direction, hell he can just run up and beat Deadshot to death with his bare hands - Lawton is out of his league. Revolver is more skilled, better trained, smarter, stronger, better! FOXHOUND was the most powerful military unit in the world, reserved specially for a small number of handpicked, elite superhuman soldiers. Ocelot joined this group, based solely off his marksmanship. That means that his skill with revolvers, is literally considered a meta human ability. I think that sums thing up.

Both are exceptional strategists, and are uncanny trickshots.

Ocelot can run and attack Floyd with a surprise attack but Floyd would be able to recover, and retaliate. In his fights against Batman he was never trying to kill him, he held back. He will NOT be holding back against Ocelot.

If he charges Deadshot then he'll get some punches in, but Deadshot can just change his bullets to high explosive rounds and unload on Ocelot, Deadshots armor can protect him from the blasts, he was protected from an explosion that took down an entire warehouse, Ocelot doesn't have the durability to survive that.

The Suicide Squad is given the missions that nobody else wants to do, the missions to incredibly dangerous for anyone else, the missions that are supposed to get you killed, and Deadshot has survived every single one of them.

Ocelot may be a meta human based off of his revolver skill, but Deadshot doesn't care for meta's, heck he took down 9 of them at once with his pure skill.

Deadshot should win this fight based off of a superior durability, better tech, more powerful weapons, a higher rate of fire, and more versatility in terms of his ammunition.

Ocelot is limited by his 6 shots in a revolver and the fact that he has to use both hands to give it an 'automatic function' a tactic that Deadshot can exploit. Though Ocelot can dodge bullets, Deadshot can predict where his foes will be, to shoot them when they arrive, so Ocelot is going to dodge one barrage to end up running into another.

This was an incredibly fun debate and it's time to open up the votes, sadly I can't actually change the title to voting but I'll try and tag some people.

@cadencev2, @fetts, @wolverine08, @tparks, @jokergeist, @diredrill, @kidman560, @esquire, @juiceboks, @monsterstomp, @adhd_assassin

I just tagged a few, and I've love for you all to vote, if you haven't got the time suggest this to a friend who does!

Nick & I did a great job here and we had some fun, hopefully you choose a winner based off of their ability to debate FOR a character and use TACTICS for said character instead of your own personal bias for a specific character. If you're a huge Deadshot fan but think that Nick did a better job displaying Ocelot and proving why Ocelot would win, then vote for Ocelot, don't be a fanboy, same goes for Ocelot fans!

Thank you, and goodnight!

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MonsterStomp

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#15  Edited By MonsterStomp

Awesome debate guys. You both get massive praise for putting up good points. I've learnt a lot about both characters while reading this.

With that said, I'm compelled to give my vote to @thetruebarryallen. I found myself agreeing with him more times than not. Ocelot (although a formidable marksmen) will have issues getting through Deadshot's armour, whilst Deadshot will be pulling his shots off at a much higher rate of fire and with more accuracy, against a guy with minimal armour.

Major props to Nick though, it was an excellent read.

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GodTriggerHulk

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@nickzambuto:

Gotta give it to Ol' Shalashaska. Nice work by both debaters.

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adhd_assassin

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This is one of the best and most original cavs I've seen. I will say that both of you did a great job and got several valid points across, but I say nick won this one

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@wolverine08: Thanks for voting! The debate sure was a blast ^_^

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TTBA - 2

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Nickzambuto - 2

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Deadshot

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@jwalser3: Thank you for voting!!!

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TTBA - 3

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Nickzambuto - 2

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renamed040924

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Can I ask jwalser for a little bit more explanation then that. I mean he didn't even vote for a debater, just a character… I can't tag from my phone, but I'm really not comfortable with that type of vote.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@nickzambuto: Sure thing.

Hey @jwalser3, what part of this debate did decide that 'Deadshot' would be the victor? What was something that I brought up that really sealed the deal, or what was something that maybe you didn't see Nick respond to well enough with Ocelot?

He'd like some more explanation on the vote so if you could give that it'd be grand ^_^

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jwalser3

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One problem Ocelot has in this fight is reload time. You say he carries a a bunch, but I've only seen three on screen. So 24 shots, against a guy that can pump out for shots than that....you do the math. Also, Ocelot has zero protection if he is shot, while Deadshot has armor. This "THOR Hand Cannon" was brought up a little, but we didn't get any feats, other then.

I disagree. The THOR will go right through Floyd's armor and destroy his insides. Ocelot however, can tank an explosion or two.

Seems like a video of this uber powerful gun would have came in handy.

The only big thing I think Ocelot had over Deadshot was the h2h. But even then, all Deadshot has to do is swing at him and fire at the same time. Both of you guys did good, just TTBA had some better stuff.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@jwalser3: Thanks for that :) It's always nice to see exactly WHY you picked who you picked, it helps us as debaters improve our own skills!

Also, voting is still open people so vote while you can!

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Pokergeist

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#28  Edited By Pokergeist
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How'd you know!? ....anyhoo, I did read this earlier, and @thetruebarryallen gets my vote by a tiny hair. In my onion, he successfully argued that Deadshot's armor means more protection, especially from Ocelot's otherwise deal-breaking 'Kill Shot'. Floyd has more bullets, more rapid fire, and a bit more advantages from what I've seen.

Sincerely,

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NeonGameWave

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#30  Edited By NeonGameWave

This debate was phenomenal and it will be remembered! But in terms of who had the overall edge in connection to the purpose of sheer debating, I would have to give it to @nickzambuto the way he layered and designed his points had given me such great insight on the character of Ocelot coupled with the fact that he gave a very sound argument as well as explanation as to why Ocelot had more than just the H2H advantage but @thetruebarryallen did a remarkable job as well and made Deadshot quite the highlight in his depiction of feats!

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renamed040924

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FukYouRenchamp

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I vote for TheTrueWallyWest

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Pokergeist

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I am voting slightly to Nick.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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Thanks to everyone who voted!!!!

Current Score

TTBA - 5

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  • Jokergeist
  • Pr0methius ( This may change, can't tell if he was joking with the TrueWallyWest comment )

Nickzambuto - 4

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@pr0metheus I can't tell if you actually voted for me or were just joking ahaha.

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FukYouRenchamp

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#36  Edited By FukYouRenchamp
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TheTrueBarryAllen

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renamed040924

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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renamed040924

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#40  Edited By renamed040924
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Wolverine008

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#41  Edited By Wolverine008

I vote for myself as well.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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Pokergeist

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@cadencev2: Sounds good haha, I don't even know if Nick & I were going to continue or if he is accepting a defeat. We were about to start another CAV against each other and he claimed that I beat him last time and this was the only CAV I did against him so I don't know if he wants to continue voting with this or if that means that I've won this match?

I'm willing to keep it open until you're ready to close it :D

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renamed040924

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#45  Edited By renamed040924
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AllStarSuperman

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I'll read later

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Pope052

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#47  Edited By Pope052

@nickzambuto:

I'll read down through it, and let you know my decision as soon as i'm done.

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DarkRaiden

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I vote for @nickzambuto for the simple reasons that Deadshot has no bullet dodging feats and Ocelot does. IMO they'll quick draw nearly simultaneously with Ocelot being slightly faster from what's shown, but the problem is that Ocelot won't be touched, and Deadshot will be. Even more, Ocelot's advantage in stealth and H2H give him an advantage of being able to bring the fight close IMO. So yeah

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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Current Score

TTBA - 5

  • MonsterStomp
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  • Jokergeist
  • Pr0methius

Nickzambuto - 5

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  • GodTriggerHulk
  • Neongamewave
  • CadenceV2
  • Darkraiden

Votes for either side are appreciated. Tie breakers are fun. Make sure to read the whole argument, don't vote for your favorite character vote for who debated better, yada yada yada :P

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Pope052

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#50  Edited By Pope052

Highly enjoyable debate and i'd say it was a half-hour well spent reading through it all. Kudos to both debaters for providing entertaining and high-quality arguments. Now, to decided who my vote goes to..

The first video that @nickzambuto presented didn't make Ocelot look like much, and then @thetruebarryallen's first post was incredible. But then @nickzambuto's opening post blew my mind about just how good Ocelot is with that revolver, and after reading it I felt at even that early of a stage I knew who my vote would go to.

That is, until I saw the rest of @thetruebarryallen's counter posts and the rest of Deadshot's feats, and they basically won me over after that point.

While @nickzambuto's opening post was definitely more impressive IMO, I felt his counter arguments didn't quite hold up a lot against @thetruebarryallen's and there was slight overrating of Ocelot from that point onwards and there was not really an actual counter for Deadshot's clear armor advantage and weapon differences IMO.

While being more skilled with a revolver is definitely a consideration, it just doesn't hold up against Deadshot in my books. It would be like putting Ezio VS Batman. Ezio was the best at his time, but Bruce is in a completely different league with massive tech advantages that you just can't counter.

All in all, great debate but @thetruebarryallen takes the cake, he has my vote.