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#1 Edited by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio
Zuko represented by GothamCiti
Zuko represented by GothamCiti

VS

Favaro Leone represented by Joewell911
Favaro Leone represented by Joewell911

Rules:

  • Both fight in character in a random encounter.
  • EoS Zuko has his twin Dao Swords and cannot use bending.
  • Favaro has his sword and crossbow.
  • Starting distance is 20 ft.
  • Win by KO or Death.

Challenge A Viner Rules

  • Do not start extra arguments, post unnecessary scans/videos or interfere in the debate itself in any way. If you wish to inform either of us on anything important or correct us on a point, send us a private message.
  • If any of the above is excessively broken, we may request a mod to assist.
  • Your vote should be decided based on the debating quality and abilities of the participants. Not necessarily on the characters they are representing.
  • A reason for your voting choice would be greatly appreciated too.
  • Regular posting/commenting is fine.
  • As always, may the best debaters win.

Location:

No Caption Provided

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#2 Edited by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@gothamciti: Can Favaro get his crossbow as well? Two weapons to two?

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#4 Posted by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by americanspeeddemon (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#6 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@gothamciti: It has begun!

Favaro Leone

Do these look like the eyes of a lair?
Do these look like the eyes of a lair?

Favaro Leone is an ex-bounty hunter who's often chased by the his frenemy (Kind of like what Aang/Zuko had, except even more gay.) Kaisar. After meeting Amira, a half Angel/half Demon, he promises to take her to Helheim in return for some sweet smooches. On his way he fights criminals, demons, and beasts of all sorts in order to fulfill his promise.

In battle Favaro is quite skilled and has the amazing agility. He's a competent swordsman whose aim with a crossbow is great, but where he really shines is in ingenuity and in-battle improvisation. As someone who debates for Sokka, you should know how well this traits play into a battle.

Epic Jams

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Stats, Abilities, and Gear

Favaro's constant bounty hunting must have gotten him pretty built, because he's quite solid when it comes to physical training.

Weapons:

There are three big things Favaro uses in most battles.

  1. The Fragment of Bahumat (That just sounds badass, doesn't it?): This is what Favaro uses as a sword after his main dagger is broken by Kaiser. It's a piece of the world-razing dragon Bahumat strapped to a hilt and is sharp enough to damage the dragon despite it being able to tank mountain level attacks.
  2. Crossbow: A powerful handheld arrow-shooter that's pretty strong in it's own right. It pierces armor and shatters a skeleton warrior with just one arrow. Favaro is also plenty accurate with it, seeing as he can do things like hit the ropes holding a rope bridge and spin a wheel with an arrow while upside down.
  3. Smoke Bombs: Whooosh! Like a ninja! He tosses a couple of these down and he's gone in a puff.

Skill/Intelligence

Favaro vs Thieves and Monster-Summons

This is a good place to start. First off in the battle, there are some normal thugs with swords. They'll be a threat, right? Ha! Favaro comes in and one shots them without a problem. Then the boss-man summons some fire breathing beasts. Instead of fighting them head on and probably getting himself killed, he uses his brains and takes them out by exploiting their own powers. He throws some alcohol on the ground and watches as they set themselves ablaze.

Favaro vs Kaiser 1 (Of many)

You're gonna be seeing the name "Kaiser" a lot, so let me get into the basics of him for those who don't know.

Kaiser is a knight turned bounty hunter (Turned knight) who acts as Favaro's rival and friend. He's immensely skilled (He's brought down hordes of pirates, waves of zombies, and can evenly duel with Favaro on multiple occasions.) and has around the same stats as Favaro (Can cut through chains, tank attacks from demons, and react to crossbolts.). Fights with him should not be taken lightly.

Now, on to this very fight. It starts off with them both on horseback. They fight for a bit like that, before getting off and doing battle on the top of a giant wheel. Just from watching, it gives you a good introductory on both their physical abilities and skill. The fight ends after Favaro shoots at Kaiser's horse with a sneak crossbow attack and Kaiser is forced to go after it.

Favaro vs Kaiser 2

This on is much less light-hearted than the last. Kaiser believes his old friend is a demon this time around and is going straight for the kill. But Favaro is able to avoid all he has, even after he's disarmed and forced to use weapon's he's unfamiliar with. But after some Talk-Fu he's able to calm Kaiser down and get him to assist in the bigger threat; the giant demon. Again, Fava's smarts show as he uses the battlefield's large gears and pulleys to disorientate the demon before dropping a huge metal piece on it as they find a way out.

Favaro and Kaiser vs Azazel (A powerful demon)

Last one for the intro.

Even alone, Favaro temporarily holds his own against this very superhuman opponent with magic. And once Kaiser joins they're even able to beat him (Not of their own power, but with strategy.). This fight shows off well his adaptiveness. He comes up with the great idea to use flour as a smokescreen and even incorporates his tail into the battle for an advantage. His evasiveness is also displayed, as he's avoiding a majority of attacks from a person who's far faster than any human.

And I think that's enough for this post. I'll get more to this fight in the next post, after your intro.

Good luck!

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#7 Edited by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice. I shall begin.

Zuko

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Background:

Prince Zuko of the Fire Nation was scared and banished by his father Ozai for speaking out of turn. In a quest to regain his lost honor, he searched for the Avatar and eventually found him after years of a snipe hunt. He relentlessly pursued Avatar Aang but eventually switched sides through some character development and assisted his ex-enemies into defeating his father and saving the world.

Zuko's main powers revolve around being a master firebender. Though even without them, Zuko is a skilled superhuman swordsmen who'll give Favaro a run for his money.

Stats:

Strength:

Strength: Favaro is a pretty strong dude all in all. He constantly duals with Kaiser, who can slice through steel chains, and he can flip a rather large man with no problem. He can even knock out thugs with a single punch. It's nothing crazy, but it's nothing to scoff at either.

Those strength feats are nice, but Zuko has replicated most of them and then some.

Such as slicing through steel chains with his sword with ease.

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And kicking back boulders and slicing another steel chain + lever with just his feet.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Nonchalantly flipping a large Fire Nation prisoner who snuck up on Zuko.

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And (also as a decent showing of skill) can also easily defeat armed men through feats of strength such as:

Knocking back a man several yards just from his quickdraw technique (0:51-0:57)

Pushing down a man by just grabbing his head (1:03-1:08)

And easily chopping a wooden weapon with a kick. (1:12-1:17)

https://youtu.be/yKAX5auLmt0?t=51

At the moment, I'd say they're pretty comparable.

Speed/Reactions:

Speed/Reactions: He might be placed in the slightly superhuman category here. At point blank range, he's able to dodge a hand cannon whilst balancing on a rope. The barrel was even touching him when it went off! You'll see even more of this in the skill section, because his evasiveness in combat is ridiculous.

Zuko himself has fairly superhuman reactions which will similarly be seen more in his fights against superhuman opponents such as Aang, Jet, and Azula.

Like reacting to point blank fire bending at his face:

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Slicing through heavy earth bended rock:

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Slicing an arrow from behind after it was fired with ease:

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And reacting to the somewhat controversial bended lightning (while I don't feel it's legit lightning speed it still appears to take some superhuman speed/perception):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Lightning aside, it appears they are both mostly on par in this area though I'm again inclined to slightly favor Zuko due to reacting to lightning and is agile enough to avoid or outright slice through crossbow shots.

Durability:

Durability/Endurance: After being thrown off his feet by a huge slab of stone being hurled at him by a goat monster, he gets right up. Even when strong demon throws him through the wooden floor with snake magic, he recovers in a jiffy. And when that demon throws him through a stone wall and down several stories, he still hasn't given up.

Zuko's also got some crazy durability/endurance.

He's gotten hit by several boulders and huge slabs of stone hurled at fast speeds by an earthbender and Zuko keeps recovering. (1:35-2:18)

And just when you think he's down for the count, Zuko remembers his mother's wisdom to never give up, and gets back up without any lasting injuries. (2:18-3:10)

https://youtu.be/yKAX5auLmt0?t=95

And Zuko's also endured point blank explosions caused by firebending like it's nothing.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And has endured falling down several stories and a fire bended blast from the firebending Azula (1:22-1:36)

https://youtu.be/3LjhoGfDe_M?t=82

Who's shown casually slicing wooden buildings with her blasts:

No Caption Provided

So Zuko should be fine against any sort of blunt attack, though I suspect both Zuko and Favaro are fairly vulnerable against piercing attacks (which is what the fight will mostly come down to).

Weapons:

Zuko's very own dual Dao Swords:

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Skill:

Aside from beating the 3 Earth Nation warriors (without even using a sword) Zuko has also demonstrated some other showings of skill without bending.

As the Blue Spirit, has displayed martial skill to take on several armed elite Fire Nation firebenders:

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Several armed Elite Fire Nation Admirals (0:52-1:00), (1:19-1:25):

Notable stealth skills to show he's not always reckless (something he's completely improved by end of series). (0:00-0:20), (1:00-1:12):

One interesting instance in particular showcases Zuko's craftiness to trick a Dai Lee Agent through an elaborate decoy of himself in fast rate to trick the agent offguard (1:33-1:42)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsEsqT3wYuA

This pretty much shows Zuko can also formulate plans if need be.

Also he's got epic kicking skills:

Such as schooling the firebender Admiral Zhao:

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Did I mention Zhao's a moon buster btw :P

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Initial Thoughts:

Based on what you have given me, I'm feeling this will be a decent fight. While Favaro is crafty, Zuko is still fairly smart and far from a brute. Additionally, Zuko can react to cross bows and the smoke bombs should more less be a minor hinderance.

Since you are going to be playing up his resourcefulness, I would like to ask for specific strategies that Favaro will utilize on Zuko in the Agni Kai ring since Zuko doesn't have any particular weaknesses by the end of the series.

As for all of the Favaro vs Kaiser fights, this appears comparable to Zuko's sword duel with another skilled swordsmen named Jet who's skilled to own several firebending Fire Nation soliders, Dai Li agents (elite earthbending mooks), and can also hang and react to Aang who moves and fights at superhuman speeds with airbending.

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So Zuko should win through purely outdueling Favaro through his pure determination (as shown against the Earthbender) as well as fighting with a focused mindset (as shown against Jet and later Agni Kais with sane and insane Azula). Lastly, Favaro's evasiveness isn't something Zuko isn't used to based on his encounters with the agile + evasive Aang.

I'll elaborate more for Zuko's opponents and more counters in my next post.

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#8 Posted by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@gothamciti: I was gonna comment on how late you're posting this, but then I remembered timezones are a thing. Well, I wasn't going to sleep anytime soon anyways.

Round 2: Battle Analysis and Counters

Just look at that afro? I'm giving Favaro the
Just look at that afro? I'm giving Favaro the "swag" category by far.

Stat Matchup

  • Strength-Even: They've performed practically the same feats in the strength category. Neither would hold a notable advantage over the other.
  • Speed/Reactions-Even: The best feat for Zuko you provided-the unquantifiable lightning bending (Unless you use those crazy calcs. Plz don't.) reacting against Favaro's showing of dodging an energy cannon not even an inch away. Both are quite impressive, but I wouldn't put either over the other. Then we have combat speed, but I'll get more to that when I cover skill.
  • Durability-(You aren't gonna believe it) Even: Favaro has been thrown through thick walls into great falls while Zuko has kept going after high speed rocks and large explosions. Both have a solid blunt force resistance, but as you pointed out that won't much matter. Both people here use piercing/cutting attacks, which both of our characters are quite susceptible to. Both can one-shot if hit in the vital areas, so it's basically all up to skill on who will get that blow.
  • Weaponry-Favaro: While Zuko's twin swords are cool, his opponent is quite obviously bringing a more versatile and varied loadout to the fight. Favaro has access to a long range weapon, a superior blade, and a nice distraction based item. The advantage in this category will only add on to the several reasons why Favaro wins.

So overall the two swordsmen are nearly dead even. They boast extremely similar feats in each category, so physically neither will be at an important disadvantage. So what exactly will be the deciding factor in this fight if not the physical build of the combatants?

Skill, combat intelligence, and overall experience will play the biggest roles here, and I believe that Favaro takes a slight majority in all.

However, before getting into why I hold that believe I'd like to answer some of the things presented in your previous post.

Counters

Based on what you have given me, I'm feeling this will be a decent fight. While Favaro is crafty, Zuko is still fairly smart and far from a brute. Additionally, Zuko can react to cross bows and the smoke bombs should more less be a minor hinderance.

I mostly agree with you here, but I'd like to point out some things on the crossbow and smoke bombs.

Zuko can indeed react to an arrow fired from an old style bow, but a crossbow bolt seems to a bit faster. After some research, I found a bow fires arrows at somewhere around 150-180 FPS. A crossbow bolt, on the other hand, clocks in at the 200-350 FPS range, nearly double the speed. Now, am I saying Zuko won't be able to react? No, he'd still be able to dodge or block several bolts, but it'd be significantly harder for him.

If we combine this with other things though, such as Favaro's ridiculous accuracy, the speed at which he can fire the bolts off, the ability to use it whilst in close combat, and the power of the bolts, it becomes much more of a factor.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
1-Hitting a small target while upside down. 2-Firing 3 bolts in less than a second. 3-Using it while sword fighting and showing it can pierce metal.

So while Zuko could deflect some of the bolts shot at him, it's also likely some would hit him. Especially if Favaro uses it up close or in a rapid fire manner. This gives my side a solid advantage and way of weakening his opponent before taking him on in sword to sword combat.

Since you are going to be playing up his resourcefulness, I would to ask for specific strategies that Favaro will utilize on Zuko in the Agni Kai ring since Zuko doesn't have any particular weaknesses by the end of the series.

You know, this sounds familiar. I just... can't seem to place my hand on it...

What exactly do you see Sokka doing(Other than the things you mentioned already.)?

Seems like I'm on the other side now. :P

You did put us in quite an empty area, but I can still think of some things Favaro could pull. Smoke bombs being a big part of most. He could toss one down then immediately charge at Zuko or fire a couple bolts in his direction. This should allow him to get some hits in, maybe even put him down.

Other than that, there's some water behind the main section. I could see Favaro luring Zuko over by it before firing a bolt to get him off balance then knock him in while he's distracted. From there he could easily put him down.

There's even some torches in the background. I bet getting one of those thrown at your face right after leaving a smoke cloud would be pretty shocking.

While there isn't all that much he can do here, Favaro is quite a great improvisor and that, along with his skill, should let him take a win.

As for all of the Favaro vs Kaiser fights, this appears comparable to Zuko's sword duel with another skilled swordsmen named Jet who's a dude who's skilled to own several firebending Fire Nation soliders, Dai Li agents (elite mooks), and can also hang and react to Aang who moves and fights at superhuman speeds with airbending.

So Zuko should win through purely outdueling Favaro through his pure determination (as shown against the Earthbender) as well as fighting with a focused mindset (as shown against Jet and later Agni Kais with sane and insane Azula). Lastly, Favaro's evasiveness isn't something Zuko isn't used to based on his encounters with the agile + evasive Aang.

You bringing up his fights with Aang is very interesting, because it very much proves Zuko has a hard time with evasive opponents that focus on dodging. He is rarely ever able to land a hit on Aang, while Aang can get several on him in most fights-even when he has access to firebending.

For an example of what I'm talking about, check out this:

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Zuko is extremely hard pressed to ever touch Aang, while the latter can land several hits on him. I see this being very similar to how this fight will go. Zuko will give a flurry of attacks, Favaro will evade them, then sneak in an attack with a quickly crafted plan (Crossbow, smokebomb charge, etc.). Rinse and repeat until Zuko goes down.

Even Jet, someone who I'd put below both Kaiser and Favaro, was able to stay on even ground with Zuko until the Po Po shut them down. If he could, why could Favaro do the same until coming up with a strategy and putting him down permanently?

Why Favaro Wins

I've already explained some of the more creative ways Favaro could win or take an advantage through use of his crossbow, smoke bombs, and ingenuity, but he should be able to win in a straight sword fight as well.

I say this for a couple reasons. For one, like I've already proven, Zuko has a serious hard time fighting defensive-centric enemies. Favaro excels at this art.

Defending from a flurry of attacks from a bloodlusted Kaiser, while not trying to hurt him.
Defending from a flurry of attacks from a bloodlusted Kaiser, while not trying to hurt him.
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
1-Doing it again with a broken sword. 2-Blocking attacks from a demon pirate while on a small rope.

This alone would allow Favaro to keep safe from a majority of Zuko's attacks.

Then we have his offense. By the time Favaro feels the need to go on the offensive, Zuko would probably already have a couple arrows in him. At the very least some stab or cut wounds. Basically, he wouldn't be at peak efficiency. Then all Fava would have to do is enact one of the plans above or just overwhelm him in his weakened state.

Worse comes to worse, Favaro could always distract him with a tail attack.

No Caption Provided

I could see this coming in handy for an extra layer of defence, but even more so for sneak attacks. Especially the first time, since neither have any knowledge here and there's nothing like this in his universe. They'd be sword fighting for a bit then all of the sudden something wraps around Zuko's leg and pulls him to the ground, giving Favaro the perfect opportunity to end the match. Even if he survives the first use of it, it'll play a constant role in defence and landing sneak attacks in along with the crossbow and smoke bombs.

Recap

  • While their physical stats are just about equal, Favaro holds a solid advantage in weaponry, battle intelligence, and skill.
  • Zuko has shown to have a problem with evasive opponents such as Aang and Jet, which is something Favaro is an expert at.
  • Favaro's crossbow will be very hard to avoid do to it being faster, stronger, and more accurate and rapid fire than the arrow Zuko previously blocked. And if he decides to whip it out next close, like he has before, it'll be nearly impossible for the Prince to do anything about it.
  • Smoke bombs, the tail, and smarts will be the final straw in this fight and should allow Favaro to take it handily.

It'll be an entertaining fight, but in the end Favaro will take the win!

Seel Soh Cotem!!

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(Btw, how many rounds are we doing?)

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#10 Edited by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2:

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Stats Counters:

Strength-Even: They've performed practically the same feats in the strength category. Neither would hold a notable advantage over the other.

I agree.

Speed/Reactions-Even: The best feat for Zuko you provided-the unquantifiable lightning bending (Unless you use those crazy calcs. Plz don't.) reacting against Favaro's showing of dodging an energy cannon not even an inch away. Both are quite impressive, but I wouldn't put either over the other. Then we have combat speed, but I'll get more to that when I cover skill.

Fair enough (mostly cause I find said calcs kinda dubious and blitzfests are no fun :P).

Durability-(You aren't gonna believe it) Even: Favaro has been thrown through thick walls into great falls while Zuko has kept going after high speed rocks and large explosions. Both have a solid blunt force resistance, but as you pointed out that won't much matter. Both people here use piercing/cutting attacks, which both of our characters are quite susceptible to. Both can one-shot if hit in the vital areas, so it's basically all up to skill on who will get that blow.

Agreed.

Weaponry-Favaro: While Zuko's twin swords are cool, his opponent is quite obviously bringing a more versatile and varied loadout to the fight. Favaro has access to a long range weapon, a superior blade, and a nice distraction based item. The advantage in this category will only add on to the several reasons why Favaro wins.

This is a fair point as well, but Zuko's dual blades do give more range and angles versus a sole sword in a swordfight and can help Zuko work around Favaro's weapons more easily compared to a single sword. :)

Counters:

I mostly agree with you here, but I'd like to point out some things on the crossbow and smoke bombs.

Zuko can indeed react to an arrow fired from an old style bow, but a crossbow bolt seems to a bit faster. After some research, I found a bow fires arrows at somewhere around 150-180 FPS. A crossbow bolt, on the other hand, clocks in at the 200-350 FPS range, nearly double the speed. Now, am I saying Zuko won't be able to react? No, he'd still be able to dodge or block several bolts, but it'd be significantly harder for him.

If we combine this with other things though, such as Favaro's ridiculous accuracy, the speed at which he can fire the bolts off, the ability to use it whilst in close combat, and the power of the bolts, it becomes much more of a factor.

Those are great accuracy feats, but I'll point out they were against mooks.

In regards to accuracy on a more dangerous opponent, here's an instance against Jet where Zuko is able to stab the opening of one of his hook swords.

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In addition to the high blur like speed of which Jet was swinging his sword, the opening is also very small. Yet, Zuko showed great precision and accuracy with his sword as he exploited an unlikely opening.

And to get an idea of the level of speed Jet swings his sword...

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Jet's can literally swing his sword so fast, he can circle around a tall tree branch without pesky gravity getting in the way. On top of all this, Jet was also reacting to an air blast from Aang which is far from slow. So Jet's no slouch in agility (even if not as good as Aang).

So while Zuko could deflect some of the bolts shot at him, it's also likely some would hit him. Especially if Favaro uses it up close or in a rapid fire manner. This gives my side a solid advantage and way of weakening his opponent before taking him on in sword to sword combat.

So thanks to Zuko's overall casual reactions to arrows and his own fairly above average agility, I'm not quite quite seeing a huge advantage for Favaro tagging Zuko with ranged weapons which Zuko can close the gap with dual blades to take on multi shots.

You know, this sounds familiar. I just... can't seem to place my hand on it...

What exactly do you see Sokka doing(Other than the things you mentioned already.)?

Seems like I'm on the other side now. :P

;)
;)

You did put us in quite an empty area, but I can still think of some things Favaro could pull. Smoke bombs being a big part of most. He could toss one down then immediately charge at Zuko or fire a couple bolts in his direction. This should allow him to get some hits in, maybe even put him down.

Other than that, there's some water behind the main section. I could see Favaro luring Zuko over by it before firing a bolt to get him off balance then knock him in while he's distracted. From there he could easily put him down.

There's even some torches in the background. I bet getting one of those thrown at your face right after leaving a smoke cloud would be pretty shocking.

While there isn't all that much he can do here, Favaro is quite a great improvisor and that, along with his skill, should let him take a win.

I don't feel smoke screens will be a major hinderance since even a less experienced/skilled Zuko was still able to survive just fine against a horde of mercanaries inside smoke bombs earlier on and even avoided a sucker slash from a pirate.

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Also, Zuko has had a lot of firebending battles (notably Sozin Comet boosted Azula) where he had to deal with a lot of obsuring debris + flames yet wasn't particularly hindered while fighting.

https://youtu.be/ncK1liW11GA?t=181

You bringing up his fights with Aang is very interesting, because it very much proves Zuko has a hard time with evasive opponents that focus on dodging. He is rarely ever able to land a hit on Aang, while Aang can get several on him in most fights-even when he has access to firebending.

For an example of what I'm talking about, check out this:

Zuko is extremely hard pressed to ever touch Aang, while the latter can land several hits on him. I see this being very similar to how this fight will go. Zuko will give a flurry of attacks, Favaro will evade them, then sneak in an attack with a quickly crafted plan (Crossbow, smokebomb charge, etc.). Rinse and repeat until Zuko goes down.

I'll address a couple things.

First, this is Zuko earlier on in the series where he was more rash and headstrong especially against Avatar related shenanigians which he was able to gradually mellow out.

Next, Zuko also wasn't as skilled at those points but would get progressively better at both bending and non bending as the show went on.

While Aang generally does have the edge in speed + reactions I wouldn't count Zuko out completely even then. There were times were Zuko is able to react to and surprise Aang earlier on:

Rolling/dodging an air kick and overwhelms Aang:

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Aang with airbending is pretty agile btw:

Dispelling a barrage of accurate arrows already flying towards him:

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Reacting to an explosive blast from Combustion Man with a fancy flip.

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Can run superhumanly fast on and off combat:

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And can also redirect lightning:

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My point in bringing up Aang was that evasive tactics won't be something new for Zuko since he has prior knowledge of it and Favaro would also be hard pressed to tag Aang.

Azula herself was an opponent who can give Aang + Toph (one of the best earthbenders) some trouble in evasiveness: (1:39-2:42)

https://youtu.be/qdcdhgn0zHM?t=99

And Zuko with later training was eventually able to have the reflexes and skill to match her through having the right balanced mindset (not pure offense) at EoS: (1:08-1:53)

Take note of Zuko's more defensive tactics to cancel out Azula's attacks (1:14,1:26,1:51)

https://youtu.be/NqLW7D2P1HE?t=68

And Zuko would later school the insane Comet Boosted Azula.

Despite Azula's raw power, Zuko was able to defend just fine and outfought her by fighting smart and seizing openings. Not necessarily as crafty, but again far from reckless.

dem leg swipe skillz
dem leg swipe skillz

Next, Zuko has also displayed some great evasive + defensive showings against Jet, who I'd say is more or less a mainly offensive dude.

Jet was pretty much constantly on the offensive provoking/gloating Zuko the entire time, but Zuko was able to retain his cool.

Earlier on Zuko was hopping about avoiding all of Jet's strikes just through his agility and balance:

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And at one point he was even blocking his sword strikes back to back:

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That's an awkward angle to fight, but Zuko was able to defend just as well while being at a disadvantage to not get a good look of Jet's slashes.

Even Jet, someone who I'd put below both Kaiser and Favaro, was able to stay on even ground with Zuko until the Po Po shut them down. If he could, why could Favaro do the same until coming up with a strategy and putting him down permanently?

To again get back to Jet, I disagree. Jet is about on par in fighting ability to Favaro and Kaiser from what I've seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQtCqfbvfM4

On top of being able to occasionally react and hang with Aang (while displaying some nimbleness of his own to parkour around tall trees with hook swords), Jet was even able to defeat a group of armed Fire Nation Soldiers from multiple angles (0:29-1:56):

https://youtu.be/WcCaSuordck?t=29

And flip over Dai Lee Agents who earthbend at fairly fast speeds while also reutilizing his high swinging speed to slice down their projectiles:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And even though both were able to contend with each other, I'd say Zuko had the edge just for tactically disarming Jet's sword.

Zuko can just as likely avoid/cut through the crossbows while also similarly disarming either Favaro's crossbow or sword through his own improvision.

I say this for a couple reasons. For one, like I've already proven, Zuko has a serious hard time fighting defensive-centric enemies. Favaro excels at this art.

This alone would allow Favaro to keep safe from a majority of Zuko's attacks.

But Zuko himself is not a purely offensive attacker, and was able to defend and counterattack well against a peak Azula who fights with analytically precision based attacks + evasiveness.

Such as canceling out Aang's elemental attacks:

No Caption Provided

And flipping over and disarming Suki's sword strikes:

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Suki btw, is very agile (like parkouring on prisoners heads and climbing walls like a pseudo Spider-Man) + skilled in Kyoshi warrior martial arts (reminiscient of Aikido and Tessenjutsu) and can evade and own firebending Fire Nation prisoner guards:

https://youtu.be/IzkL7TsEeK4?t=120

And stalemate Ty Lee who's also ridiculously agile (like somersaulting over 30 feet in the air) + skilled in chi blocking martial arts and can give all sorts of elite bending mooks + top tier benders trouble with her evasive fighting style.

No Caption Provided

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvx6NiccDVA

Then we have his offense. By the time Favaro feels the need to go on the offensive, Zuko would probably already have a couple arrows in him. At the very least some stab or cut wounds. Basically, he wouldn't be at peak efficiency. Then all Fava would have to do is enact one of the plans above or just overwhelm him in his weakened state.

I feel Zuko's defensive/evasive showings against Jet + Azula would allow him to avoid said arrows and even some sword slashes and can overall fight at better capacity (though even if hurt, he's displayed some willpower like against the armed earthbender).

Plus, it's not impossible for Zuko to implement tactics of his own (like disarming or taking advantages of leg swipes).

Worse comes to worse, Favaro could always distract him with a tail attack.

I could see this coming in handy for an extra layer of defence, but even more so for sneak attacks. Especially the first time, since neither have any knowledge here and there's nothing like this in his universe. They'd be sword fighting for a bit then all of the sudden something wraps around Zuko's leg and pulls him to the ground, giving Favaro the perfect opportunity to end the match. Even if he survives the first use of it, it'll play a constant role in defence and landing sneak attacks in along with the crossbow and smoke bombs.

Honestly, that tail seems more or less a liability. Zuko could easily cut it if gets near Zuko or on his leg. And Favaro could easily get distracted himself trying to keep his tail in one piece.

No Caption Provided

And I've already showed Zuko sucessfully defending himself from Jet back to back so...

Recap

  • While their physical stats are mostly on par, Zuko also has the skill + tactical mind to keep up and edge through.
  • Zuko can keep up with evasive opponents such as Azula and Jet, which is something Zuko is also experienced in.
  • Favaro's crossbow shots won't be an issue as Zuko has the speed + evasiveness to block or avoid them while Zuko can work to disarm Favaro's weapon.
  • Smoke bombs are obstacles Zuko has already dealt with and Favaro's tail will end up being more of a hinderence than a useful distraction.
  • Zuko's level headed approach to the duel and his determination will be all he needs to overcome his crafty opponent.

Zuko shall emerge victorious in a great fight!

No Caption Provided

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#11 Edited by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Edited by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@gothamciti: So we both get one more counter, then conclusions?

Then remember not to bring anything new in in your next post!

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Round 3: Counters To Your Counters

This is a fair point as well, but Zuko's dual blades do give more range and angles versus a sole sword in a swordfight and can help Zuko work around Favaro's weapons more easily compared to a single sword. :)

I wouldn't quite say that. The range depends on the length of a sword, not how many. The Fragment of Bahument is at least as long, if not more so that Zuko's twin swords.

With angles, I think you're forgetting that Favaro will be dual wielding with his crossbow up close. That'll give him much more range and more flexibility in places to attack by a bit.

And if the dual blades are ever too much, I see no reason Favaro couldn't just...

No Caption Provided

Snap one in half. He was shown going through a sword, armor, and a hand without any problems without even using his incredibly sharp Dragon Sword.

Those are great accuracy feats, but I'll point out they were against mooks.

???

It was against a wheel. Accuracy isn't affected by your opponent's strength, him being able to hit a steering wheel just right to make it go spinning is amazing. Especially since he was upside down while doing so.

In regards to accuracy on a more dangerous opponent, here's an instance against Jet where Zuko is able to stab the opening of one of his hook swords.

This is impressive, but I'm not sure why Zuko's accuracy is being brought up. He doesn't have to aim at anything here.

So thanks to Zuko's overall casual reactions to arrows and his own fairly above average agility, I'm not quite quite seeing a huge advantage for Favaro tagging Zuko with ranged weapons which Zuko can close the gap with dual blades to take on multi shots.

Eh, I could still see Favaro getting in a shot before it gets in close. Especially since slower and larger projectiles have hit Zuko when fired in slower succession.

No Caption Provided

Twice.

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Even blocking them may not work. Considering Favaro's crossbow bolts are strong enough to do this:

Piercing armor and shattering a skeleton on force alone.
Piercing armor and shattering a skeleton on force alone.

I could see them breaking a sword if it hits it wrong. At the very least, weakening it so Favaro can easier break it later. Even if it doesn't, the force should be enough to disarm Zuko of a sword or just staggering him to leave him open for another bolt to hit him (Similar to what the rocks did).

And what if he brings it up close, like he has before? Zuko would definitely be getting hurt then. He's never proved to react to arrows at even 10 foot range, let alone 5 inches away from his chest while he's dealing with a sword already. This becomes even more true when we consider the crossbow bolts are even faster than the arrows Zuko reacted to!

I don't feel smoke screens will be a major hinderance since even a less experienced/skilled Zuko was still able to survive just fine against a horde of mercanaries inside smoke bombs earlier on and even avoided a sucker slash from a pirate.

He escaped the smokescreen, he never fought inside of it (Not according to your gif.). That's moment where he's trying to escape is all Favaro needs to get a crossbow bolt in on him.

In your firebending examples, he's never really fighting up close. Sight is a lot more important when you're in a melee fight.

First, this is Zuko earlier on in the series where he was more rash and headstrong especially against Avatar related shenanigians which he was able to gradually mellow out.

Next, Zuko also wasn't as skilled at those points but would get progressively better at both bending and non bending as the show went on.

While Aang generally does have the edge in speed + reactions I wouldn't count Zuko out completely even then. There were times were Zuko is able to react to and surprise Aang earlier on:

Even near the end of the series though, he couldn't tag Aang.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBNdwJnaDz4

Not once during this fight (Which is nearly EoS) did he ever hit Aang, even with firebending.

He never "overwhelmed" Aang there. He used firebending (Which he doesn't have) to break his shield, but the fact he got a shield up proves he didn't overwhelm him, especially not on the speed front.

Reacting to Aang is something even Favaro could do, and that was after he was tagged by him anyways.

My point in bringing up Aang was that evasivness tactics won't be something new for Zuko since he has prior knowledge of it and Favaro would also be hard pressed to tag Aang.

It doesn't matter if Favaro could tag Aang. My point was that Zuko has trouble with opponents who are good at dodging, which you only further proved.

Zuko never beat Aang in a fair fight, and very rarely does he tag him.

Zuko lost to Azula until she went batsh!t insane and wasn't at all at her peak. Plus he has incredibly amped fire blasts when he done it. Even then he nearly died.

Next, Zuko has also displayed some great evasive + defensive showings against Jet, who I'd say is more or less a mainly offensive dude.

Jet was pretty much constantly on the offensive provoking/gloating Zuko the entire time, but Zuko was able to retain his cool.

Earlier on Zuko was hopping about avoiding all of Jet's strikes just through his agility and balance:

And that fight ended with neither winning!

If he couldn't beat Jet, whose has less tricks (And imo slightly less skill) than Favaro, how's he supposed to win this?

But Zuko himself is not a purely offensive attacker, and was able to defend and counterattack well against a peak Azula who fights with analytically precision based attacks + evasiveness.

A peak Azula? When? The only time he beat her was when she was having a mental breakdown. Every other time she dealt with him with little problems.

Honestly, that tail seems more or less a liability. Zuko could easily cut it if gets near Zuko or on his leg. And Favaro could easily get distracted himself trying to keep his tail in one piece.

I could have sworn I've posted this before...

NSFW??
NSFW??

Favaro, who can go through layers of metal, couldn't cut his own tail. Zuko wouldn't, and him trying to do so would leave him open for attack.

Recap

Really, nothing has changed since my last one.

  • While their physical stats are just about equal, Favaro holds a solid advantage in weaponry, battle intelligence, and skill.-Still true. You agreed with me on the stats and I debunked any attempts from you to say his more skilled.
  • Zuko has shown to have a problem with evasive opponents such as Aang and Jet, which is something Favaro is an expert at.-Still true. In none of the things you brought up did Zuko actually beat a heavily evasive opponent. Keep up with, sure, but he's eventually defeated like he will be here.
  • Favaro's crossbow will be very hard to avoid do to it being faster, stronger, and more accurate and rapid fire than the arrow Zuko previously blocked. And if he decides to whip it out next close, like he has before, it'll be nearly impossible for the Prince to do anything about it.-I have a nice little section reinforcing this fact in this post.
  • Smoke bombs, the tail, and smarts will be the final straw in this fight and should allow Favaro to take it handily.-Still true.

Fava-boy gots this.

He can have cool cinematic shots too!
He can have cool cinematic shots too!

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#13 Edited by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 3 (Final Round):

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Final Counters:

I wouldn't quite say that. The range depends on the length of a sword, not how many. The Fragment of Bahument is at least as long, if not more so that Zuko's twin swords.

With angles, I think you're forgetting that Favaro will be dual wielding with his crossbow up close. That'll give him much more range and more flexibility in places to attack by a bit.

And if the dual blades are ever too much, I see no reason Favaro couldn't just…

Snap one in half. He was shown going through a sword, armor, and a hand without any problems without even using his incredibly sharp Dragon Sword.

Dual blades will nonetheless make it easier to keep up with multiple crossbow shots at least for long range.

And since that instance with cutting through Kaiser's armor + sword is something Zuko could also replicate, I don’t see why disarming/destroying either the crossbow or The Fragment of Bahumat isn’t an option/strategy for Zuko (since Zuko will quickly catch on how annoying the crossbow in particular will be).

???

It was against a wheel. Accuracy isn't affected by your opponent's strength, him being able to hit a steering wheel just right to make it go spinning is amazing. Especially since he was upside down while doing so.

I missaw that. :P Anyways I’ll agree with at that, but Zuko himself will be harder to tag than that wheel.

He barely outran bended lightning in a reactionary moment, so he has the speed to at least aim dodge a handful of shots.

No Caption Provided

This is impressive, but I'm not sure why Zuko's accuracy is being brought up. He doesn't have to aim at anything here.

Zuko’s own accuracy even from that point in the show (not at peak) will be able to match Favaro’s aim.

Eh, I could still see Favaro getting in a shot before it gets in close. Especially since slower and larger projectiles have hit Zuko when fired in slower succession.

Twice.

That’s more or less a showing of the Earthbender’s speed since benders are blatantly superhuman.

And I’ll again point out Zuko has gotten progressively better as the show went on especially since he has reacted more than once to bended lightning which appeared to be far faster than those projectiles or arrows.

It even flew to the air fast.

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If anything else, Zuko soon after would display skills of rapidly swinging his arms :P

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Even blocking them may not work. Considering Favaro's crossbow bolts are strong enough to do this:

I could see them breaking a sword if it hits it wrong. At the very least, weakening it so Favaro can easier break it later. Even if it doesn't, the force should be enough to disarm Zuko of a sword or just staggering him to leave him open for another bolt to hit him (Similar to what the rocks did).

Blocking should work since Zuko has strength comparable to Favaro and can also cut through steel effortlessly without a sword.

Also, I’m surprised I didn’t ask this before but how many arrows does Favaro have?

I doubt Favaro’s ammo is infinite, so I’m pretty sure patiently outlasting Favaro’s ammo is another strategy Zuko can also utilize if the crossbows give him trouble.

And what if he brings it up close, like he has before? Zuko would definitely be getting hurt then. He's never proved to react to arrows at even 10 foot range, let alone 5 inches away from his chest while he's dealing with a sword already. This becomes even more true when we consider the crossbow bolts are even faster than the arrows Zuko reacted to!

It’s pretty much shown Zuko is able to easily time an accurate arrow about 10 feet or less from a Rough Rhino who were considered elite Fire Nation mercanaries.

No Caption Provided

Crossbows shouldn’t be a major issue for a faster Zuko by EoS.

He escaped the smokescreen, he never fought inside of it (Not according to your gif.). That's moment where he's trying to escape is all Favaro needs to get a crossbow bolt in on him.

In your firebending examples, he's never really fighting up close. Sight is a lot more important when you're in a melee fight.

Escaping the smokescreen still shows how Zuko is able to avoid hazards off guard.

Even jumping above the cloud is an option for Zuko and his prior knowledge of smokescreens help to not get caught offguard to Favaro in this allout fight.

Also, Zuko was reacting to the firebending up close:

No Caption Provided

On top of all of this, I showed Zuko reacting to arrows at close range with ease while he couldn't even see them. Zuko can still hear the cross bows fired to react accordingly.

Even near the end of the series though, he couldn't tag Aang.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBNdwJnaDz4

Not once during this fight (Which is nearly EoS) did he ever hit Aang, even with firebending.

He never "overwhelmed" Aang there. He used firebending (Which he doesn't have) to break his shield, but the fact he got a shield up proves he didn't overwhelm him, especially not on the speed front.

Reacting to Aang is something even Favaro could do, and that was after he was tagged by him anyways.

It doesn't matter if Favaro could tag Aang. My point was that Zuko has trouble with opponents who are good at dodging, which you only further proved.

Zuko never beat Aang in a fair fight, and very rarely does he tag him.

Except Zuko wasn’t neccessarily going all out there since the two were already allies at that point. Zuko was just getting Aang pumped since he was slacking off his training for Ozai.

I'm just showing Zuko can keep up to Aang's own fast attacks like blocking an air blast himself and not be caught off guard for this duel by evasive tactics (though I guess Jet and Azula are better examples).

Anyways since Favaro isn’t as agile as Aang and is of comparable speed to Zuko, Favaro won’t be able to give Zuko as much trouble in this fight.

Jet is also agile since he can parkour with swords, and sometimes surprise Aang...

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Yet, Zuko is still able to match him in sword combat.

And that fight ended with neither winning!

If he couldn't beat Jet, whose has less tricks (And imo slightly less skill) than Favaro, how's he supposed to win this?

Because it was interrupted...

Who’s to say Zuko couldn’t have eventually won (especially since I pointed out an instance in the duel where Zuko had a higher tactical edge than what Jet has done)?

Zuko's progress over the series further implies an edge from the two.

A peak Azula? When? The only time he beat her was when she was having a mental breakdown. Every other time she dealt with him with little problems.

Zuko lost to Azula until she went batsh!t insane and wasn't at all at her peak. Plus he has incredibly amped fire blasts when he done it. Even then he nearly died.

The stalemate at the Boiling Rock.

Where Zuko was able to keep up more consistently with an evasive opponent who's not mentally hindered and Azula couldn’t tag or even finish off Zuko with ease. So I wouldn't say Zuko was losing or anywhere close to outmatched.

And even if Comet Azula was insane, her speed wasn’t lowered. She was even moving about on the terrain agilely with her fire propulsion.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The final Agni Kai showcases Zuko exploiting openings and winning through a steady fighting mind (being amped himself is irrelevant).

Zuko only nearly died because successful lightning redirection has worn him out (not because he was tagged etc).

I could have sworn I've posted this before...

Favaro, who can go through layers of metal, couldn't cut his own tail. Zuko wouldn't, and him trying to do so would leave him open for attack.

You hadn’t, but that’s impressive… :P

Though Zuko has reacted to lightning from Ozai even while his guard was initally lowered, so Zuko could at least bat the tail away if not avoid it at the last second with his blade.

No Caption Provided

He's not stupid, so I don't see Zuko ignoring/forgetting about the tail.

Furthermore, Zuko's own leg swipe skills could end up fatally distractings or disorienting Favaro instead...

Recap

And nothing has changed from my last one either (except for cutting off Favaro's tail).

  • While their physical stats are mostly equal, Zuko also has the skill + tactical mind to keep up and edge through (Still true from Zuko's duel with Jet + Azula)
  • Zuko can keep up with evasive opponents such as Azula and Jet, which is something Zuko is also experienced in (Zuko had the edge in said interrupted stalemates and can finish off Favaro tactically since he is still able to come up with plans and fight intelligently)
  • Favaro's crossbow shots won't be an issue as Zuko has the speed + evasiveness to block or avoid them while Zuko can work to disarm Favaro's weapon (Still true through Zuko reacting to lightning and improving overall as the show went on)
  • Smoke bombs are obstacles Zuko has already dealt with and Favaro's tail will end up being more of a hinderence than a useful distraction (Still true. Even if Zuko can't cut the tail, he'll be cautious).
  • Zuko's level headed approach to the duel and his determination will be all he needs to overcome his crafty opponent (Especially true from his fights with Jet + Azula).

Zuko's got this with some decent effort.

No matter the obstacles, he'll endure.

He has something to fight for... something to live for...

No Caption Provided

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#14 Posted by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@gothamciti: It's been a good one, GC! Really enjoyed debating with you again.

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Also, I’m surprised I didn’t ask this before but how many arrows does Favaro have?

I doubt Favaro’s ammo is infinite, so I’m pretty sure patiently outlasting Favaro’s ammo is another strategy Zuko can also utilize if the crossbows give him trouble.

Since you clearly asked a question never brought up before here, I felt the need to respond to it.

While Favaro's specific clip size is never touched upon, he is never seen purchasing new arrows throughout the entire series. He's shown using anywhere from 5-10 arrows per fight, but he never seems to run out or have to reload.

So while I can't give you a specific number, it'll be enough to hit Zuko.

Outlasting the arrows isn't plausible either, due to his inability to avoid arrows at very close range from a shooter on Favaro's caliber.

Conclusions!!

I'll make this quick, since I've said most of what I wanted to say in the original post.

  • Neither Favaro or Zuko have any advantage in stats, but Favaro has the upper hand in raw skill, ingenuity, and experience.
    • I say this because he's fought more and better opponents. He's killed demons, monsters, and 20+ individual criminals with bounties on their head alone. The only people Zuko has dueled without firebending are Jet, a stalemate, and the Earthbenders, which he would have lost without busting out the fire. All his over fights he used bending in, and he didn't win many of those either.
  • Favaro's weaponry and use of them is superior than Zuko's.
    • The Fragment of Bahamut is a blade made from an apocalyptic dragon who tanks mountain busting attacks like they're nothing. It's not breaking from Zuko. On the other hand, Favaro could easily shatter Zuko's swords like he has to enemies before.
    • Then we have the crossbow and smokebombs, both of which give Favaro a huge advantage. Zuko will not be able to react to the crossbow in conjunction with the sword (10 feet is far different than 10 inches,) up close and it even has a chance of hitting at a range considering Zuko has failed to react to slower projectiles. With his accuracy and intelligence, it's a game changing factor.
  • Zuko has shown a consistent problem against evasive opponents.
    • Examples being his fights with Aang, Jet, and Azula-none of which he ever beat without firebending or some kind of amp. Favaro is up there in agility and will be able to avoid most of Zuko's advances while being able to land many hits of his own with the sword/bow combo.
  • Favaro's tail will be great for a free sneak attack first time used and a solid distraction every time after that. Even if he knows it's there, It'll be next to impossible for Zuko to avoid three different attacks from three different angles when in reality he'd be hard pressed to even hold back one.

GG, but at least Zuko will go down in a blaze of glory!

Loading Video...

Good luck, and may the best debater win!!

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#16 Edited by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell911: My bad, and thanks JW! This debate was really fun!

No Caption Provided

Conclusions:

Though Favaro or Zuko don't have any significant advantage in stats, Zuko has the upper hand in raw skill, tacticalnesss, and experience.

  • I say this because even his fights with firebending still show experience for Zuko fighting a variety of superhuman opponents and how Zuko is able to progress as a fighter in more areas (including most notably fighting mentality). Zuko's stalemates with Jet or Azula is irrelevant with how well he was still able to perform.
  • Plus, Zuko was still able to defeat several elite armed and superhuman firebending prisoners/guards who were trained military soliders without bending.

Favaro may have more weapons than Zuko, but it's nothing Zuko can't handle.

  • The Fragment of Bahamut can still be disarmed if not broken given how Zuko was able to disarm a sword of another agile swordsman. And if Zuko's swords are destroyed, Zuko can still put up a fight (through steel busting kicks, arrow slicing chops, evasive dancing, and dem leg swipe skillz).
  • Crossbows are nothing Zuko can't avoid given how he's able to effortlessly time close range arrows mid series only to soon become fast enough to react to bended lighting by EoS. With Zuko's more defensive/patient fighting style in his final fights even waiting out Favaro's average 5-10 arrows can be a plausible battle strategy as well as chopping Favaro's crossbow in half as well.
  • Smokebombs are also obstacles Zuko has prior experience and with his senses (like hearing the arrow with his back turned and avoiding sucker slashes) won't get caught off guard.
  • With his Zuko's own skill (like accurately tagging Jet's sword mid swing) and tactical intelligence, Favaro's aim and vague craftiness won't help him here.

Zuko has progressively shown he can can hang with evasive opponents so Favaro isn't bringing anything new he hasn't dealt with.

  • Examples being his fights with Aang, Jet, and Azula which showcase the agility and fighting style of Zuko to not only keep up and avoid crossbows, but also dance around Favaro's sword slashes (like Zuko leaping above Jet's sword swings on the table).

Favaro's tail won't get the chance to be a gamechanger given how Zuko will already be taking care of Favaro's other weapons and said tail can be swatted or dodged.

  • If anything, Zuko can also provide an ample distraction with his leg swipe skills to exploit weaknesses in Favaro's guard (like against the Firebender Zhao and Azula).

In the end, Zuko shall prevail!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChWVyvOLN0w

Good luck too, and may the best debater win!!

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#18 Edited by Killerwasp (17361 posts) - - Show Bio

Good debate from both of u, but tbh joewell I'm gonna give it to Gotham, you both provided excellent counters, but I felt his were just 1 above yours everytime u brought up a point or countered a point he countered it every step of the way. Regardless though good debate and I was very entertained, been following this tbh since day one.

@joewell911@gothamciti

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#19 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

Good debate from both of u, but tbh joewell I'm gonna give it to Gotham, you both provided excellent counters, but I felt his were just 1 above yours everytime u brought up a point or countered a point he countered it every step of the way. Regardless though good debate and I was very entertained, been following this tbh since day one.

@joewell911@gothamciti

Thanks for voting!

Anything I could have done better or things I was weak on?

Joewell 0-1 Gotham

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#20 Posted by Arcus1 (27767 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell911: I will give this a read, feel free to remind me later if I haven't yet (cause I can't really do a good job right now)

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#21 Posted by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio
@arcus1 said:

@joewell911: I will give this a read, feel free to remind me later if I haven't yet (cause I can't really do a good job right now)

Will do!

@gothamciti: Oh, and hey. Now that our debate is over, I thought you may be interested in this little comic for your next Sokka or Zuko CaV.

It further shows Zuko's skill as he basically mercs Sokka and admits that he was trained in the art of the sword by Piandao.

Didn't want to show you it during the debate for obvious reasons, but I thought you may find it interesting none the less.

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#23 Posted by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell911: I almost forgot about this. Thanks for showing a link to it.

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#24 Edited by DeathHero61 (18765 posts) - - Show Bio

I already had a vote up but Comicvine ate my post so sorry for not feeling like voting.

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#25 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Bump!

I already had a vote up but Comicvine ate my post so sorry for not feeling like voting.

Aw, that sucks. Maybe you could just do a little sentence or something so we can get the vote in?

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#26 Edited by DeathHero61 (18765 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell911:

Well, to be perfectly honest, you could have mentioned how Bending is based off chinese martial arts, to add on to Zuko's case for skill.

And i feel that despite your case, Favaro has shown more experience in swordplay then Zuko, and based off his fights has slightly higher stats. Favaro also has the weaponry and thinking to decide the pace of the battle. His crossbows are more powerful than your standard crossbow considering it could pierce armor. I felt that @gothamciti managed to prove that Favaro indeed could win this battle. Even if Zuko had more skill(which may be the case based off the choreography of his fight with Jet.) Favaro has shown that he is no slouch either and that he is skilled in his own right in combat, taking down demons, and other skilled swordsmen a lot of the times with conventional strategy and tactics.

I feel it's mainly his weaponry and his tendency to mess with his opponents the way he does that gives him the win here. And i feel like this would be a repeat of Kaiser vs Favaro except with slightly more difficulty.

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#27 Edited by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Thanks for reading and the bending based off Chinese martial arts point.

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#28 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Think you're a tad bit confused. I debated for Favaro here, Gotham was defended Zuko. :P

So I guess it's Me 1-1 Gotham?

Regardless, thanks for voting!

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#29 Posted by Killerwasp (17361 posts) - - Show Bio

@gothamciti: np you did good, not saying its not bad for joe to lose, but I felt u did better, poor Jowell D: XD

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#30 Posted by DeathHero61 (18765 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Think you're a tad bit confused. I debated for Favaro here, Gotham was defended Zuko. :P

So I guess it's Me 1-1 Gotham?

Regardless, thanks for voting!

Lol oh crap you're right XD

@deathhero61: Thanks for your vote and the bending based off Chinese martial arts point.

Look up a video called avatar creating the legend.

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#31 Posted by americanspeeddemon (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell911@gothamciti I really liked this debate. Stats were dead even though i think Zuko definitely had a reaction speed advantage But i'd have to give a slight gear advantage to Favaro. Overall i give the narrow victory to Gotham as while Joewell debated well and brought up gear etc. I think Zuko had a few too many advantages most notably reflexes which would allow him to easily react to crossbolts. Overall good debate all around.

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#32 Edited by Abyssdarkfire (1417 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell911

I think some of the arguments that you made were interesting and could have worked better if you would not unintentionally contradicted yourself. Zuko has shown a consistent problem against evasive opponents. A great point and you provided ample evidence to support your point but at the same time the point when you brought up points such as So overall the two swordsmen are nearly dead even. They boast extremely similar feats in each category, so physically neither will be at an important disadvantage. So what exactly will be the deciding factor in this fight if not the physical build of the combatants?

Skill, combat intelligence, and overall experience will play the biggest roles here, and I believe that Favaro takes a slight majority in all. I like this point but by your own admission you have inadvertently just stated that other tangibles like agility are not very important in deciding the victor between these too.

Worse comes to worse, Favaro could always distract him with a tail attack.

No Caption Provided

I could see this coming in handy for an extra layer of defence, but even more so for sneak attacks. Especially the first time, since neither have any knowledge here and there's nothing like this in his universe. They'd be sword fighting for a bit then all of the sudden something wraps around Zuko's leg and pulls him to the ground, giving Favaro the perfect opportunity to end the match. Even if he survives the first use of it, it'll play a constant role in defence and landing sneak attacks in along with the crossbow and smoke bombs.

NSFW??
NSFW??

Favaro, who can go through layers of metal, couldn't cut his own tail. Zuko wouldn't, and him trying to do so would leave him open for attack.

Favaro Leone

Weapons:

There are three big things Favaro uses in most battles.

  1. The Fragment of Bahumat (That just sounds badass, doesn't it?): This is what Favaro uses as a sword after his main dagger is broken by Kaiser. It's a piece of the world-razing dragon Bahumat strapped to a hilt and is sharp enough to damage the dragon despite it being able to tank mountain level attacks.
  2. Crossbow: A powerful handheld arrow-shooter that's pretty strong in it's own right. It pierces armor and shatters a skeleton warrior with just one arrow. Favaro is also plenty accurate with it, seeing as he can do things like hit the ropes holding a rope bridge and spin a wheel with an arrow while upside down.
  3. Smoke Bombs: Whooosh! Like a ninja! He tosses a couple of these down and he's gone in a puff.

Round 2: Battle Analysis and Counters

  • Weaponry-Favaro: While Zuko's twin swords are cool, his opponent is quite obviously bringing a more versatile and varied loadout to the fight. Favaro has access to a long range weapon, a superior blade, and a nice distraction based item. The advantage in this category will only add on to the several reasons why Favaro wins.

I love the Tail Argument but in the opening it's forgotten and the first time the tail is brought up you refer to it as a distraction which downplays all it can bring to the battle.

The Best argument you had was the crossbow! I thought you really brought up great points which were also hard to refute.

Counters

Based on what you have given me, I'm feeling this will be a decent fight. While Favaro is crafty, Zuko is still fairly smart and far from a brute. Additionally, Zuko can react to cross bows and the smoke bombs should more less be a minor hinderance.

I mostly agree with you here, but I'd like to point out some things on the crossbow and smoke bombs.

Zuko can indeed react to an arrow fired from an old style bow, but a crossbow bolt seems to a bit faster. After some research, I found a bow fires arrows at somewhere around 150-180 FPS. A crossbow bolt, on the other hand, clocks in at the 200-350 FPS range, nearly double the speed. Now, am I saying Zuko won't be able to react? No, he'd still be able to dodge or block several bolts, but it'd be significantly harder for him.

If we combine this with other things though, such as Favaro's ridiculous accuracy, the speed at which he can fire the bolts off, the ability to use it whilst in close combat, and the power of the bolts, it becomes much more of a factor.

@gothamciti

I really don't have any critiques except that I would have not been so quick to agree that both characters are equal in stats because if that's true who ever has the more versatile gear and for the most part unquantifiable intangibles helps to decide who pulls out a win. I would have elaborated more on how good Zuko's h2h capabilities are because with both of you guys agreeing that both characters are basically equal than anything that once character is better at than the other starts to tip the scales a little bit. I think you did a good job when you brought up Zuko's refusal to quit and how it would help him pull out a win. I think you did a really superb job of countering almost every point joewell911 brought up.

I think @gothamciti did a better job of countering but I have to give this one @joewell911 he brought up very plausible ways that Favaro could win with all his gear when both of these characters are evenly matched.

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#33 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Arcus1 (27767 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting debate, I'm quite familiar with Zuko but had no familiarity with Favaro coming into this

This seems like a pretty close match, and the debating was close as well, so good job to both. In the end, though, I think I'm gonna have to give it to @joewell911. His point about Favaro's versatility advantage (sword, crossbow, tail) was a good one. Favaro seems to have more demonstrations of swordsmanship and stuff than Zuko (who has mainly bending), which certainly helped Joewell, as he was able provide more examples of Favaro fighting other skilled swordsmen, while Zuko mainly has his fight with Jet.

Gotham, I'm not really sure there was anything you could have done better. It was mainly the fact that Favaro seems to be more exclusively a sword fighter and regularly fights other sword fighters that sold it for me, but you did a great job with what's available for Zuko

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#35 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Thanks once again for the vote!

Joe 3-2 GC

@gothamciti: What exactly are we going to?

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#36 Edited by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by americanspeeddemon (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

@gothamciti: this was hard to decide i switched a few times before coming to my decision

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#38 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell911: How about first to 10 votes?

That might be a little much. There are extremely few threads that get that many votes.

I'd say 5, or whoever gets the most by Wednesday.

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#39 Posted by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio
@gothamciti said:

@joewell911: How about first to 10 votes?

That might be a little much. There are extremely few threads that get that many votes.

I'd say 5, or whoever gets the most by Wednesday.

Fair enough. Let's close voting on Wednesday.

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#41 Edited by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#42 Edited by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by Gizmorino (6317 posts) - - Show Bio

@gothamciti: @joewell911: You guys were awesome, Gotham you were really great in this debate, from what I read favaro is a considerably superior character and you tried showing zuko could beat him, I'm not sure this is your best but I'm sure this is one of the best representation of zuko on the vine and prolly on the internet.

Breakdown of your debates:

Stats even though equal zuko has the better combat speed and strength, favaro has the durability.

Zuko has the experience and hunting skill, favaro has the weapons and evasiveness.

Put in mind this took me 10 minutes to decide.

Is it posible for me to say Gotham has the debate and Joe has the battle? Anyways Joe won the battle

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#46 Edited by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio

@gizmorino: Thanks so much for reading!

I guess the vote goes to me since this a vote is based on the debate.

Current Vote Tally:

GothamCiti: 3

Joewell911: 3

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#47 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@gizmorino: I appreciate the in depth overview!

Who exactly was that a vote for tho?

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#50 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump!