CAV: Yoda (YousufKhan1212) vs Mace Windu (Thoromdil)

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ViperSixteen

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#1  Edited By ViperSixteen

Yoda

No Caption Provided

Versus

Mace Windu

No Caption Provided

CAV & Battle Rules:

  • Me and @thoromdil get 2 posts each and if we don't respond to each other's posts within a time frame of 2 weeks, it counts as an automatic concession.
  • Votes end 5 days after the debate is finished.
  • Don't interrupt the debate regardless of how one sided it may be.
  • Standard morals no blood lust.
  • No BFR, victory is only allowed in death or a K.O. through the use of combat skill or Force abilities.
  • No PIS or WIS allowed.
  • Both are in their Episode III versions.
  • Duelling and Force abilities are allowed in an all out fight.
  • Canon and Legends/EU feats are allowed.

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ViperSixteen

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@thoromdil: Are you ready? Do you want to make your opener?

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deactivated-5d6bc0cd36084

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T4V.

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ViperSixteen

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@foxerdes said:

@yousufkhan1212: You guys might want to change the forum.

My bad, I forgot that this was supposed to go to the battles forum. I'll move it.

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deactivated-5a98875cd0f94

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T4V, although this matchup is a bit lopsided.

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Xerolot

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t4v

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the_wspanialy

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This should be interesting. T4V.

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deactivated-5c508820920c0

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This kind of seems like an unnecessary debate considering the many statements regarding the placement of these two. But regardless, T4V.

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TheMuser

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T4V gentlemen.

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Emperor339

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T4V

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deactivated-5be183e26f3e9

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WollfMyth209

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This kind of seems like an unnecessary debate considering the many statements regarding the placement of these two. But regardless, T4V.

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Greysentinel365

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The only way I could see this working is if you outlawed all the quotes that say Yoda>Windu and somehow lowballed Yoda's performance against Palps while highballing Mace's.

But perhaps there is some method I am unaware of

T4V

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ViperSixteen

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@greysentinel365: Thoromdil disagrees. He says Mace can stomp Maul + Dooku and says that Star Wars authors admit that Mace is only equalled by Yoda, and even said that he's in the top 3 powerful Star Wars characters, being comparable to Legends GM Luke :)

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ViperSixteen

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#18  Edited By ViperSixteen

Well, I sit through watching 3 hours of "Keeping up with the Kardashians" yesterday because some girls made me watch it with them.

I'd rather do this than watching something like Brody be tied to a stripper pole by Kendall and Kylie...

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Greysentinel365

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ViperSixteen

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noobsnowman

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#21 noobsnowman  Online

This CaV is going to be interesting, but hilariously one sided and short.

T4V.

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WollfMyth209

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Well, I sit through watching 3 hours of "Keeping up with the Kardashians" yesterday because some girls made me watch it with them.

I'd rather do this than watching something like Brody be tied to a stripper pole by Kendall and Kylie...

How are you still with us?

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ViperSixteen

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#24  Edited By ViperSixteen

@wollfmyth209 said:

@yousufkhan1212 said:

Well, I sit through watching 3 hours of "Keeping up with the Kardashians" yesterday because some girls made me watch it with them.

I'd rather do this than watching something like Brody be tied to a stripper pole by Kendall and Kylie...

How are you still with us?

Well, it's probably because weird shit that happens in real life can be worse than the weird shit that happens on the internet, so I decided to pick the one that's not as weird.

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HitTheAssasin

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@radioactivehaggis said:

This kind of seems like an unnecessary debate considering the many statements regarding the placement of these two. But regardless, T4V.

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Thoromdil

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#26  Edited By Thoromdil

@yousufkhan1212:

No Caption Provided

Since Mace Windu's character is very well known on this forum, I won't spam basic knowledge about him, but rather jump right into two subjects I think should be mentioned when debating Yoda vs Mace Windu. First is the difference in Mace Windu's and Yoda's approach as a character, and the second are advantages Mace Windu has over Yoda in this matchup.

1. The difference between Mace Windu's and Yoda's approach as a character:

There is no doubt Yoda was presented as a superior jedi between the two while the prequels were first being filmed. G. Lucas's idea seems to be that Yoda is the most powerful jedi there is, while Mace Windu is his close second. There are several statements to prove that. f.e:

"we know he's (Mace Windu) second only to Yoda." Nick Gillard

"I'm like the second baddest guy in the universe." Samuel L. Jackson

and others.

It is understandable to perceive Yoda as a superior jedi to Windu in a way you perceive a general as a superior soldier to a much younger and less experienced commando. But does that mean that when they go down in a dojo general will win a h2h? I think not necessarily. After all, generals work in the field is probably limited for years at that point, while the commando daily engages in direct combat, and probably trains more often as well. General is past his prime, even if he aged well, while the commando is beating the world record in pushups every other day. I hope you know what I mean.

Similarly with Yoda and Windu, Yoda is hundreds of years old and is known for his unrivaled connection with the force. He is definitely a better tactician, a much wiser master and teacher, and he has much deeper understanding of the force. Mace Windu is much younger and less experienced, but he is a warrior first, not a teacher first, and we see him engage in direct combat a lot more often. While Yoda is known primarily for his wisdom as a teacher, Mace Windu is known primarly for his power as a warrior. They have very different approach to being a jedi as characters. Yoda personifies a perfect jedi councilor, while Mace Windu personifies a perfect jedi guardian. You can see that when Anakin is praising his own master, comparing him to the top duo in a very specific way:

"As wise as master Yoda, as powerful as master Windu" Anakin AotC

Because of this difference in their character, they also have a different approach when it comes to combat. And here comes the second thing I wanted to talk about, which is:

2. Advantages Mace Windu has over Yoda in this matchup:

Like the OP says, this is the Ep 3 version of both characters. So this is a Mace Windu in his prime versus a 800 years old Master Yoda. First advantage I'd like to name here is maybe the most obvious one. But it is very important, has many sides to it, and is probably crucial to this fight. And it is:

(2.1 Mace's physical advantage)

Stature and reach

If you ever tried swordplay, you know that reach is very important. If you have shorter stature, or even if your stature is almost equal, but your opponent simply has slightly longer arms - it proves to be an advantage. Yoda having a lightsaber much shorter then an average one, further underlines this difference. The difference in stature, arm length and general reach is not a nonfactor when it comes to Mace Windu and Yoda, especially since both are so close in skill. Mace Windu can safely stay behind his guard and perform lethal blows without a lot of movement, while Yoda needs to utilize gymnastics and close the distance every time he wants to attack or counterattack. Yoda is a master when it comes to making up for his lack of reach, but it is still a disadvantage, because master Yoda has to simply try a lot harder to accomplish what Windu can while barely moving.

Constitution and endurance

This brings me to my next point. Characters general constitution and endurance. Mace Windu, being a warrior first and seen numerous times on the field performing incredible physical showings for extended periods of time has a confirmed monstrous constitution. He never seems to be tired, and his ability to support his physicality with the force d. We never saw him make a misstep or fall over after an extended duel. He is extremely fit and like I mentioned - in his physical prime. Contrary to Yoda, who's age is getting to him, even if people would prefer to think otherwise. The fact is, when comparing Yoda and Mace Windu physically, there's no way to skip some major differences in their endurance. Yoda needs a cane or even a floating chair to support himself when out of combat, and extended combat sequences we've seen him perform were costly to him, as he was visibly getting tired at the end. In his fight against Count Dooku, Yoda's voice changes at the end of the fight, as he is gasping in between his words "fought well you have, my old padawan", and after a fight, we see him immediately summon his cane back to him to support himself, suggesting he can not support himself with the force for very long periods without getting troubled (again, contrary to Windu). Similarly when fighting against Palpatine, master Yoda grows tired to the point when he can not support physically his own weight with his hand and falls to his defeat. We even see him fall over when making a dodge in the "chair throwing" sequence.

No Caption Provided

The verdict is - an extended duel against Mace Windu would surely tire Yoda down, and there is no reason to believe it would be short, when against Count Dooku Yoda could not achieve a swift victory. Against tired Yoda, Windu may be able to utilize his reach advantage and other advantages even more, exploiting any opening his weakened opponent may reveal.

Physical strength:

Here talking about actual physical strength without taking a force-supported feats would be laughable. Obviously Mace Windu is many times stronger then Yoda, just because of the massive difference in their muscle weight. I think nobody has any doubts, that if even for a single second master Yoda would clash his lightsaber with Windu without supporting himself with the force, Mace Windu would momentarily disarm him. There's the "obvious" that. So we are going to talk about feats of physical strength they can achieve specifically while supporting themselves with the force. Mace Windu has many very impressive feats of physical strenght. One of my favorite being his ability to punch holes in a super battle droid with his bare hands.

No Caption Provided

I do not believe Yoda has any strength feat to top that. However, it is also possible to determine that Mace Windu is superior, based on their similar encounters with Palpatine. When struck by a sudden lighting strike from close range - performed by the same person, Palpatine - both Yoda and Mace Windu are seen taking a defensive stance, but while Mace Windu can rather casually hold his ground, stepping back and defending against surely an immense amount of physical pressure on pushing his blade - Yoda gets pushed back and disarmed on instant, incapable of physically performing the same feat.

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I believe there is no reason to think the verdict here would be difference. Mace Windu can support his physical body with the force to a greater extend then master Yoda, and this also will prove to be an advantage.

Reflexes and speed:

When in combat, we've seen both Mace Windu and master Yoda fodderizing even rapid blaster fire from many directions with their speed and reflexes, especially in the clone wars cartoon. So how do we determine who has a superior reflexes and speed? Again - talking about force amped speed only. Both were seen also utilizing their force speed to a degreee that allowed them to blitz enemies on the battlefield. Sadle, when it comes to their top tier feats, like fighting powerful Sith Lords and other "boss" characters, there's little to compare when it comes to reflexes. I did manage to find one good example to prove that Mace Windu is somewhat superior though. When you look at the GIF above, you'll see Mace Windu block a sudden burst of force lightning coming from Sidious. Surely, it required not just strength to withstand the blast behind the guard, but also reflexes to actually block it, when you're suddenly blasted right in your face from close range, and with electricity at that - that moves almost instantaneously even compared to a blaster. Not to mention, it was the first time Mace Windu saw Sidious using force lightning, so he couldn't really expect it. Yoda approached the same kind of blast as well, but with much worse effects. The first time around, when he also wasn't expecting it, Sidious blasted him across the room (and from much bigger distance too!), completely bypassing his reflexes, although master Yoda surely was expecting to be attacked by him. So although their difference here is probably not very big, I still think that unless proven otherwise - Mace Windu is slightly superior in his reflexes and speed, and that's obviously an advantage in a fight.

No Caption Provided

This concludes my physical comparison between the two. I do believe Mace Windu is, objectively speaking, physically a superior to master Yoda - force amped or not - in every possible way. Now, to move to another aspect of Mace Windu's advantages over master Yoda.

(2.2 Dueling and fighting skills)

Most jedi/sith battles in Star Wars - unless a very dramatic difference in power is present - go down to lightsaber duels. This is why fighting skills are a very crucial element of this matchup. Many people would base their opinion about the verdict of this versus on the fact that Master Yoda is - without a doubt - a superior force user. I disagree. While Master Yoda has a deeper understanding and connection to the force then Mace Windu, his fights against high level opponents ALWAYS went down to lightsaber combat. This is why this part of the debate is very crucial. Because whoever wins this, most likely wins the matchup as well.

Mastery of the jedi combat styles:

Both master Yoda and Master Windu have mastered all VI forms of lightsaber combat, so there's really little to compare here. However, Mace Windu also mastered his own, signature style called Vaapad - form VII. It is described as very agressive and unpredictable style, that also allowes Mace Windu to create his ultimate weapon - it's turning his inborn darkess into his own light side power.

"I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light."―Mace Windu

Using a highly unpredictable and aggressive style against master Yoda, who will get tired quicker, does not know this style himself and is also vulnerable to it because of his naturally defensive posture (short stature forced)... might be just the little detail Mace Windu needs to win in a duel with Yoda. Again, it's probably not a big advantage, but it still is an advantage when it comes to mastery of the lightsaber forms, and when comparing two high tier masters - a details usually matter the most.

Dueling feats:

There are many very impressive feats in Mace's corner here. Surprisingly - much more by sheer numbers then in Yoda's corner too. He easily won duels against incredibly powerful opponents, capable of fodderizing other jedi masters at many occasions. This alone is a testament to his strength and experience in this category.

His "ez" victory against Jango Fett. Best bounty hunter in the galaxy, known for killing jedi masters with his bare hands in the past...

No Caption Provided

Him one-shotting Grievous in his prime (TCW Grievous has feats like fighting 6 jedi at the same time and winning, 3 council masters included)

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fending off mother Talzin, known to be equal or even a superior in power to Darth Sidious

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Making Count Dooku run for his life, using droids for distraction.

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And many others.

However, feat I'd like to focus on is the one which we can use to actually compare these two. And that is Mace's/Yoda's duels with Sidious. We've seen them both fight the most powerful and skilled Sith Lord in the history of Star Wars Universe - Darth Sidious in his prime. And both were clearly holding their ground. However, Mace Windu emerged victorious from the lightsaber duel part of his fight against Sidious - while we have no idea how the same fight went down in Yoda's case, because the fight cuts in the middle of their lightsaber combat and then skips right into their force combat. An argument can be made, that Yoda most likely won the trade there, and that Palpatine withdrawn to gain more distance to utilize his force abilities. However, this is still a speculation, and not a feat. An argument can be also made (and was made many, many times in this forum) that Mace's lightsaber feat against Sidious also had another side to it, and that Sidious let Mace Windu take the upper hand to some unknown extent, knowing that Anakin would come to save him and that it would help in turning him into Vader. However, that's also a speculation, not a fact. The argument from the other side can be made here as well - that Sidious could not know for sure if Anakin would turn (or just if he was fast enough) to save him from Mace Windu's execution. And in that case, he surely wouldn't risk his career, plans and put even his life on tip of Mace's Windu's sword just to gain an apprentice... whom he'd later want to replace anyway. So the argument goes both ways, and I don't think it's the place to argue about that. George Lucas also confirmed, that Mace Windu is capable of dueling Sidious on even ground. "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," - George Lucas. The fact is - Mace Windu has defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel on screen, and it's an actual feat, even stated in his wiki page to be authentic and his most impressive one. Yoda did not. And it is a dueling feat advantage in Mace Windu's corner. Summarizing, Mace Windu is a superior to Yoda in dueling feats - both in their numbers and -even if slightly- in their quality, comparing their top feats.

That concludes my analysis about their fighting skills and dueling abilities. When comparing the two we can clearly see they are in the same league, as they are both capable of similar high tier feats. However, slight differences show, that Mace Windu has a final edge in this category as well. His knowledge on exclusive forms of combat, his numerous dueling feats and his final confrontation against the ulatimate villain all prove that he is one step ahead of Yoda when it comes to fighting. Last thing I will mention here is:

(2.3 Force abilities)_

There is no doubt, that overall prowess of Yoda is above Windu's. Yoda's connection with the force is deeper then anyone within the order. However Mace's understanding of the force should not be fodderized as well. I will try to prove here, that although Yoda is a superior force user, Mace Windu - because of his unique and specific power set and approach to using the force in combat - is capable of holding his own against master Yoda, even find an edge here and there.

Application of the force in single combat:

Master Windu is seen utilizing the force in single combat on almost every occasion possible. Sometimes he even uses the force to stop the duel before it begins (his fight vs Grievous) Master Yoda on the other hand utilizes his force abilities to great magnitudes when on a battlefield - we've seen him destroy entire space crafts and battalions of droids with just his force abilities in TCW cartoon. I doubt Mace Windu is capable of repeating his feats (he also has impressive battle feats in TCW... just not that impressive I guess), at least not on such scale and with such ease. But when facing a single, powerful opponent, it's clear that Master Windu has a more direct approach then Master Yoda - who uses his force abilities mainly for his defenses or to counterattack. He takes little to no actual offensive approaches with the force in his duels. The difference in the approach between the two leads to a conclusion that Mace Windu would use his powers more often and more effectively compared to Yoda, simply because he is used to doing it in the middle of battle, and it's more in character for him. Below examples of Mace Windu winning his fights, by force-stomping his opponents.

No Caption Provided
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Most likely Yoda would be capable of defending against anything Windu is capable of throwing at him - so maybe it's exactly an "edge". But I think it is important to note this, because it is an important character trait, and it makes the difference in the way they will use their abilities in a battle.

Unique powers that can give a character the edge:

Finally, Yoda and Mace both have different signature or as some call them favorite force powers. Their more well known powers like telepathy, telekinesis, force push are on a similar, very high level, and I really believe Mace Windu - although he is not as impressive as Master Yoda and definitely doesn't have an advantage here - can still hold his ground in this area.

No Caption Provided

Example of Master Windu's powerful force push that shatters entire squad of droids to pieces - even destroyers. Feat easily comparable to Yoda's achievements with force push.

However the main focus here I'd like to go to the powers unique to the characters like Yoda and Mace Windu. This is where I see Mace Windu getting an edge in this category.

Mace Windu is known for his unique ability called Shatterpoint, which is a force power that allows him to use the force with absurd precision and find a weak spot in anyone and anything when it occurs. Because of this ability he can use his other force powers to his fullest potential, always in the way they need to be used to achieve desired effects. Mace Windu's concentration on the force in the middle of the battle is also legendary. I think this and his ability to use Shatterpoint makes him incredibly dangerous force user and in a completely different way then Yoda. While Yoda is a great Telepath and can defend himself against energy attacks such as force lightning with Tutaminis, these powers are more or less uselss against Mace Windu and do not really counter him in any way. But Shatterpoint and Maces battle concentration will definitely help Mace Windu in his fight against Yoda.

No Caption Provided

Mace Windu using Shatterpoint is able to burst a droid to original pieces and use them as bullets.

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Mace Windu's concentration on the force is so high, he can completely ignore an army of droids shooting at him as he thinks of a plan.

In conclusion, I really believe that although Yoda is a more powerful force user, Mace Windu can still hold his own in this category, reason being:

1. Most impressive Yoda's feats are accomplished outside of direct combat - for example on a large battlefield - and with extended concentration time available to him. When it comes to personal combat and duels their force feats are far more equal.

2. Mace Windu has the advantage because of his battle concentration and shatterpoint, that may help him close the gap in power between him and Yoda, defending better against his force assaults, as he can sens and see them coming even before they happen.

3. Mace Windu can even get an edge in this category, if he uses Shatterpoint when Yoda is already tired with battle. Worn off Yoda will eventually make an opening, and Mace Windu will immediately exploit it.

Well, that's it for now ;) In conclusion:

- Mace Windu has many minor and major advantages when it comes to his physical feats and capabilities.

- Mace Windu has a decent advantage when it comes to fighting skills and dueling feats.

- Mace Windu is not as powerful in the force as Master Yoda, but he can hold his ground against him when it comes to using force in duels as their feats are more comparable there; and he can even use his signature Shatterpoint ability that Yoda doesn't have to gain an upper hand at some point.

Because of these reasons, Mace Windu takes the win in my opinion. Peace!

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ViperSixteen

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@thoromdil: Cool. I'll work on my response soon because I'm in my business class.

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Azronger

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T4V

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ViperSixteen

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Response (will be edited).

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FFP

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T4v

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ViperSixteen

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OK... I'm halfway through my response which took me 2 and a half hours to write and I've suffered a headache from reading and responding to it...

I'm going to need to delay it to tomorrow by taking a break today and finishing it tomorrow...

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Thoromdil

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@yousufkhan1212: Like I said, take your time. Don't rush it. Better make a high quality post and take a few days then make it a shallow debate for the sake of timing ;) You set a time frame of 2 weeks, so let's use it.

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Turr

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@thoromdil: nice opening post. I'm sold xD you actually convinced me.
also t4v

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ViperSixteen

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#35  Edited By ViperSixteen

@thoromdil: Just a heads up: I've edited the OP with a slight change to our CAV.

We're only allowed 2 posts each, not 3, so the next counters we make will be our last and then the votes will open.

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Thoromdil

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@thoromdil: Just a heads up: I've edited the OP with a slight change to our CAV.

We're only allowed 2 posts each, not 3, so the next counters we make will be our last and then the votes will open.

Not a problem.

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jt_gh

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T4V

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laughingbatman

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t4v

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#40  Edited By Monmouth

Tag for Votes

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ViperSixteen

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#41  Edited By ViperSixteen

@thoromdil:

No Caption Provided

I have finally finished my first counter (which nearly took 5 hours to write). Now let's do this:

Since Mace Windu's character is very well known on this forum, I won't spam basic knowledge about him, but rather jump right into two subjects I think should be mentioned when debating Yoda vs Mace Windu. First is the difference in Mace Windu's and Yoda's approach as a character, and the second are advantages Mace Windu has over Yoda in this matchup.

We'll see about that.

1. The difference between Mace Windu's and Yoda's approach as a character:

There is no doubt Yoda was presented as a superior jedi between the two while the prequels were first being filmed. G. Lucas's idea seems to be that Yoda is the most powerful jedi there is, while Mace Windu is his close second. There are several statements to prove that. f.e:

"we know he's (Mace Windu) second only to Yoda." Nick Gillard

"I'm like the second baddest guy in the universe." Samuel L. Jackson

and others.

Yes, George Lucas's idea was that Mace Windu would second only to Yoda as a fighter which is supported by multiple Sources. However, this does not necessarily mean Windu is Yoda's close second, nor does it preclude the idea that Yoda is vastly above Windu as a fighter.

It is understandable to perceive Yoda as a superior jedi to Windu in a way you perceive a general as a superior soldier to a much younger and less experienced commando. But does that mean that when they go down in a dojo general will win a h2h?

That's not now I percieve Yoda as why he's a superior Jedi to Windu; you can't bring up a comparism between military generals and soldiers up and compare it with Force users when it comes to Force users. Experience on the battlefield is a very minor factor to Force users. Vader has more experience on the battlefield against opposing Force users than Sidious does, but does that stop Vader and Sidious having a fight in lightsaber combat? Of course not. Sidious would still humiliate Vader, unlike you comparism you used with military generals and soldiers.

I think not necessarily.

I think it will.

After all, generals work in the field is probably limited for years at that point, while the commando daily engages in direct combat, and probably trains more often as well. General is past his prime, even if he aged well, while the commando is beating the world record in pushups every other day. I hope you know what I mean.

Here's the loophole in your comparism: Unlike generals and commandos that are just normal Human beings, Jedi can use the Force to augment their physical attributes whether they are old or not. Unlike generals, age is hardly a disadvantage that stops from from being able to participate in open war on the battle field. Look at Count Dooku as an example from this quote:

"Physically, the Count's age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force-unimaginably more subtle than the boy who had watched water-skeeters in the Jedi gardens all those years ago - he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, senses keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold." - Yoda: Dark Rendezvious

As you can see from the quote above, Dooku's age was described as "rarely a handicap." Not only does it heavily imply that his strength in the Force circumvents his old age, but it also implies that he is more physically capable than he was as a Jedi due to his increased power in the Force and that he is physically better than most Humans half his age (early 40s because 83 divided by 2 is 41.5 years).

This logic would also apply to Yoda too, as he is the most powerful Jedi during the PT era:

"Yoda was the oldest and most powerful Jedi in the order." - Star Wars: The Sith Wars

There are a lot more quotes, but I'll save them for later...

Similarly with Yoda and Windu, Yoda is hundreds of years old and is known for his unrivaled connection with the force. He is definitely a better tactician, a much wiser master and teacher, and he has much deeper understanding of the force. Mace Windu is much younger and less experienced, but he is a warrior first, not a teacher first, and we see him engage in direct combat a lot more often. While Yoda is known primarily for his wisdom as a teacher, Mace Windu is known primarly for his power as a warrior. They have very different approach to being a jedi as characters. Yoda personifies a perfect jedi councilor, while Mace Windu personifies a perfect jedi guardian. You can see that when Anakin is praising his own master, comparing him to the top duo in a very specific way:

"As wise as master Yoda, as powerful as master Windu" Anakin AotC

Just because they have a different different approach as characters does not mean Mace s comparable to Yoda, the quote you're using is Anakin's description of what Yoda and Mace are primarily known for from Anakin's perspective. Yoda is best known for his wisdom, Windu is best known for his power. You've also not realised that quote was Anakin using Yoda and Windu's primary characteristics to praise Obi-Wan Kenobi. And just because Yoda is primarily known for his wisdom does mean he can't kick ass like Windu can.

Because of this difference in their character, they also have a different approach when it comes to combat.

Their difference in character does not automatically mean they have a different approach to combat, but let's see what your logic is:

And here comes the second thing I wanted to talk about, which is:

2. Advantages Mace Windu has over Yoda in this matchup:

Like the OP says, this is the Ep 3 version of both characters. So this is a Mace Windu in his prime versus a 800 years old Master Yoda. First advantage I'd like to name here is maybe the most obvious one. But it is very important, has many sides to it, and is probably crucial to this fight. And it is:

(2.1 Mace's physical advantage)

Stature and reach

If you ever tried swordplay, you know that reach is very important. If you have shorter stature, or even if your stature is almost equal, but your opponent simply has slightly longer arms - it proves to be an advantage. Yoda having a lightsaber much shorter then an average one, further underlines this difference. The difference in stature, arm length and general reach is not a nonfactor when it comes to Mace Windu and Yoda, especially since both are so close in skill. Mace Windu can safely stay behind his guard and perform lethal blows without a lot of movement, while Yoda needs to utilize gymnastics and close the distance every time he wants to attack or counterattack. Yoda is a master when it comes to making up for his lack of reach, but it is still a disadvantage, because master Yoda has to simply try a lot harder to accomplish what Windu can while barely moving.

Just because Windu is taller than younger does not mean he has a physical advantage. Yoda's vastly superior Force augmentation based on vastly superior Force abilities based on his feats (which we'll get to later) renders Windu's younger body useless. And you can't use a swordplay's logic in this; this is lightsaber combat, not a sword fight that is a battle that's dictated by pure swordfighting skills. Sidious is Maul's superior in lightsaber combat, but Maul's still comparable as a duelist, but Sidious would still speed blitz him due to vastly superior speed from vastly superior Force abilities tthat makes him too fast for Maul to compete with due to Sidious's vastly superior Force augmentation, and Sidious would still outmuscle Maul. Without Force augmentation, Maul would be stronger than Sidious. But with Force augmentation, Sidious can easily handle Maul's strength and Savage's Opress's strength at the same time, and overpowered Maul in a blade lock once Sidious stopped toying with Maul.

On the subject of Yoda's use of gymnastics that he used against Dooku (who is much taller than Yoda and used less body movements), Yoda effortlessly humiliated Dooku without breaking a sweat whereas Dooku was exhausted. This is supported by the AOTC Junior Novel:

"Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.

The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.

The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable." - Attack of the Clones Juior Novel.

Tell me... When Yoda has lightsaber battle with Count Dooku that's described as "his lightsaber moved efforetlessly", "he did not even have to step back", "Yoda's lightsaber was unmovable" and wins because Dooku retreats and uses Anakin and Obi-Wan to attract Yoda's attention... Did Yoda try very hard in that victory? Did he try harder than Dooku because he was shorter than the Sith Lord? Did his use of gymnastics spend a lot of effort than Dooku's lesser use of body movements? It that all because he used a lot more effort through the use of gymnastics? It has nothing to do with the fact that he's much better than Dooku? Just a lot more effort on gymnastics, right?

Give me a break. Yoda absolutely humiliated and wiped the floor with Dooku, and all of that was because he was better than him in every way. Stronger, faster, more skilled with a lightsaber, more powerful in the Force, had superior Force augmentation - the whole nine yards.

Constitution and endurance

This brings me to my next point. Characters general constitution and endurance. Mace Windu, being a warrior first and seen numerous times on the field performing incredible physical showings for extended periods of time has a confirmed monstrous constitution. He never seems to be tired, and his ability to support his physicality with the force d. We never saw him make a misstep or fall over after an extended duel. He is extremely fit and like I mentioned - in his physical prime.

While Windu is incredibly impressive in terms of physicality, the idea that he never seems tired and his ability to support his physicality with the Force does not mean he won't get tired against Yoda.

Contrary to Yoda, who's age is getting to him, even if people would prefer to think otherwise. The fact is, when comparing Yoda and Mace Windu physically, there's no way to skip some major differences in their endurance. Yoda needs a cane or even a floating chair to support himself when out of combat, and extended combat sequences we've seen him perform were costly to him, as he was visibly getting tired at the end.

Yes, Yoda needs a cane and a floating chair to support himself out of combat - but so do a lot of old people, they do it do avoid inconvinience of old age. Yoda's reliance on a cane happens because he's avoiding the inconvinience of old age. When did Yoda get visible tired at the end of which combat sequence?

In his fight against Count Dooku, Yoda's voice changes at the end of the fight, as he is gasping in between his words "fought well you have, my old padawan",

... Which isn't attributed to fatigue. It could easily be attribute to his frame of mind. Yoda is fighting a guy who used to his his Padawan - his companion - his friend. This Padawan has turned to the Dark Side and Yoda is fighting this corrupted Padawan - so it's more likely that Yoda is emotionally distressed (but in a subtle context) than just being tired. The AOTC Junior Novel depicts Yoda was being sad by Dooku's turn to the Dark Side:

"Plans of conquest,Yoda thought sadly. But a Jedi seeks not power. Truly, Dooku had left the path of the Jedi Order. He felt Dooku gathering power, and he bowed his head in shock and sorrow as he sensed the true source of the Count’s increased ability." - Attack of the Clones Junior Novel.

Also, this isn't a Movies only dicussion, which leads to your next point:

and after a fight, we see him immediately summon his cane back to him to support himself, suggesting he can not support himself with the force for very long periods without getting troubled (again, contrary to Windu).

Yoda absolutely wasn't tired against Dooku at all. The AOTC Junior Novel outright describes Yoda's physical state as the opposite of what you described - so you are just speculation. Let's read the text from the Junior Novel again:

"Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.

The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.

The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable." - Attack of the Clones Juior Novel.

It describes Yoda as "his lightsaber moved efforetlessly", "he did not even have to step back", "Yoda's lightsaber was unmovable" ... All these descriptions contradicts your theory that Yoda was tired. So no, Yoda was not tired at all.

Similarly when fighting against Palpatine, master Yoda grows tired to the point when he can not support physically his own weight with his hand and falls to his defeat. We even see him fall over when making a dodge in the "chair throwing" sequence.

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No - Yoda's defeat at the hands of Sidious did not happen because of fatigue. It happened because Sidious was outright better than him:

"Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: That he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... Just - didn't - have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi - The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him." - Revenge of the Sith Novel.

Tell me, what do you think the Novel means when it describes Yoda in that context? I'll answer it for you: It means that Yoda's defeat happened because he couldn't defeat Darth Sidious. He did not possess the power in the Force to defeat Sidious. He did not possess the will power to defeat Sidious. He did not have a millennium of time to learn how to adapt to the ROT Sith.

Don't tell me that Yoda lost because he was tired - he lost because he wasn't strong enough to defeat Sidious, both combatively speaking and mentally.

The verdict is - an extended duel against Mace Windu would surely tire Yoda down, and there is no reason to believe it would be short, when against Count Dooku Yoda could not achieve a swift victory.

He did not have a swift victory because he did not fight at full capacity due to his unwillingless to hurt Dooku as suggested when Yoda shows affection for Dooku twice:

"Always catch you will I, when you fall," Yoda said. "I swore it." - Yoda: Dark Rendezvious

Here's the other time:

"No game. Wasteful, this war is. Even you agree. Sent you the candle, did I: You know there can be coming home for you. Know this, both of us do, and if come back to the Temple you wish, I will take you there." - Yoda: Dark Rendezvious

What do you think Yoda means when he says "Always catch you will I, when you call", "I swore it", "Know this, both of us do, and if come back to the Temple you wish, I will take you there" when he meets Dooku again?

I'll answer it for you: It means Yoda is willing to take in a person who has:

  • Recieved the majority of the blame for the Clone Wars - a war that has absolutely ravaged the Republic.
  • Been responsible for the massacre of hundreds of Jedi.
  • Fallen in league and become an apprentice to one of the most cunning and evil Dark Lords of the Sith ever.
  • Shattered the peace of the Galaxy.
  • Spread destruction through out the entire Galaxy.
  • Disgraced the Jedi order.

Despite all that... Yoda is still willing to accept and take in an absolutel abomination of the the Jedi back to the Jedi Order which even some of the Jedi themselves are reluctant to accept. This is especially compelling when you realise that Yoda is also going against one of his own beliefs - a belief that when someone turns to the Dark Side... There is no way back or any chance of redemption. Remember what Yoda says in Episode V? Well, here you go:

Yoda: If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will!

Source - The Empire Strikes Back.

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Yoda literally contradicts one of his own iconic beliefs and quotes by trying to convince Dooku to return to the Jedi Order even after Episode II. Why? Because Yoda cares about Dooku. Fighting Dooku is the last thing Yoda wants to do, and fighting at full capacity sure isn't something Yoda really intends on doing. If all of this doesn't scream "YODA DOES NOT WANT TO HURT DOOKU!!"or "YODA ISN'T FIGHTING AT FULL CAPACITY!!",then I really don't know what does. So in conclusion to this, the idea that Yoda would be tired in a fight with Windu because he did not achieve a swift victory against Dooku is absolutely illogical.

Against tired Yoda, Windu may be able to utilize his reach advantage and other advantages even more, exploiting any opening his weakened opponent may reveal.

Windu's superior height is meaningless - Dooku (who is roughly equal to Mace and extremely fit for his old age) had the same height "advantage" against Yoda... And it did not allow him tire Yoda.

Mace isn't going to tire Yoda, ever.

Physical strength:

Here talking about actual physical strength without taking a force-supported feats would be laughable.

True.

Obviously Mace Windu is many times stronger then Yoda, just because of the massive difference in their muscle weight. I think nobody has any doubts, that if even for a single second master Yoda would clash his lightsaber with Windu without supporting himself with the force, Mace Windu would momentarily disarm him. There's the "obvious" that. So we are going to talk about feats of physical strength they can achieve specifically while supporting themselves with the force. Mace Windu has many very impressive feats of physical strenght. One of my favorite being his ability to punch holes in a super battle droid with his bare hands.

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I do not believe Yoda has any strength feat to top that.

Sigh... First of all, the fact that Windu looks much stronger than Yoda, is taller than Yoda and has delivered punches that have smashed super battle droids does not mean he's got a strength advantage.

Yoda's feat of being able to not get stomped by Sidious in lightsaber clashes is more impressive. Why? Because Sidious has demonstrated enough strength to handle the combined strength of Darth Maul and Savage Opress in lightsaber clashes and stomp a blood lusted TCW Maul in a blade lock. I don't see Windu replicating any of that.

The only time Windu has done anything remotely comparable was when he had a lightsaber battle with Sidious and had several lightsaber clashes, and this only happened because of Windu's use of Vaapad which only works against Dark Siders. Yoda isn't a Dark Sider, so Windu's not going to do anything to Yoda.

However, it is also possible to determine that Mace Windu is superior, based on their similar encounters with Palpatine. When struck by a sudden lighting strike from close range - performed by the same person, Palpatine - both Yoda and Mace Windu are seen taking a defensive stance, but while Mace Windu can rather casually hold his ground, stepping back and defending against surely an immense amount of physical pressure on pushing his blade - Yoda gets pushed back and disarmed on instant, incapable of physically performing the same feat.

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I believe there is no reason to think the verdict here would be difference. Mace Windu can support his physical body with the force to a greater extend then master Yoda, and this also will prove to be an advantage.

This comparism doesn't work because Yoda was unarmed and didn't even have a lightsaber to block Sidious's Lightning, whereas Windu did. I don't need to make a long paragraph to respond to your long paragraph. I'm getting the feeling that this is going to happen again...

I believe there is no reason to think the verdict here would be difference. Mace Windu can support his physical body with the force to a greater extend then master Yoda, and this also will prove to be an advantage.

No he can't. Yoda is factually more powerful than Mace:

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a great warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

Source: Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."

Source: web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."

Source: https://youtu.be/5m2yIAxeBHA?t=329

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."

Source: https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=908

That's just for lightsaber combat. He's got numerous more quotes for being more powerful than Mace in the Force:

Despite his diminutive size and frailty, Yoda’s incomparable ability to summon the power of the Force enabled him to greatly enhance his agility and speed.

Source: Star Wars Fact Files

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Yoda was the oldest and most powerful Jedi in the order.

Source: Sith Wars

Meet Yoda. He is the most powerful Jedi.

Source: Blast Off!

Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi.

Source: The Legendary Yoda

That was why Mace was on the Jedi Council. That was why, except for Yoda, Obi-Wan thought him the most powerful Jedi he'd ever known.

Source: Jedi Quest: The False Peace

Credit goes to ShootingNova for the quotes:

Reflexes and speed:

When in combat, we've seen both Mace Windu and master Yoda fodderizing even rapid blaster fire from many directions with their speed and reflexes, especially in the clone wars cartoon. So how do we determine who has a superior reflexes and speed? Again - talking about force amped speed only. Both were seen also utilizing their force speed to a degreee that allowed them to blitz enemies on the battlefield. Sadle, when it comes to their top tier feats, like fighting powerful Sith Lords and other "boss" characters, there's little to compare when it comes to reflexes. I did manage to find one good example to prove that Mace Windu is somewhat superior though. When you look at the GIF above, you'll see Mace Windu block a sudden burst of force lightning coming from Sidious. Surely, it required not just strength to withstand the blast behind the guard, but also reflexes to actually block it, when you're suddenly blasted right in your face from close range, and with electricity at that - that moves almost instantaneously even compared to a blaster. Not to mention, it was the first time Mace Windu saw Sidious using force lightning, so he couldn't really expect it. Yoda approached the same kind of blast as well, but with much worse effects. The first time around, when he also wasn't expecting it, Sidious blasted him across the room (and from much bigger distance too!), completely bypassing his reflexes, although master Yoda surely was expecting to be attacked by him. So although their difference here is probably not very big, I still think that unless proven otherwise - Mace Windu is slightly superior in his reflexes and speed, and that's obviously an advantage in a fight.

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This concludes my physical comparison between the two. I do believe Mace Windu is, objectively speaking, physically a superior to master Yoda - force amped or not - in every possible way. Now, to move to another aspect of Mace Windu's advantages over master Yoda.

Yoda only got blasted by Palpatine's Lightning to greater effect because he wasn't given a chance to defend himself. Windu had a lightsaber that he used to block Palpatine's Lightning. Yoda did not have a lightsaber, he wasn't even in a fighting pose, Windu already his blade pointed at Palpatine.

(2.2 Dueling and fighting skills)

Most jedi/sith battles in Star Wars - unless a very dramatic difference in power is present - go down to lightsaber duels. This is why fighting skills are a very crucial element of this matchup. Many people would base their opinion about the verdict of this versus on the fact that Master Yoda is - without a doubt - a superior force user. I disagree. While Master Yoda has a deeper understanding and connection to the force then Mace Windu, his fights against high level opponents ALWAYS went down to lightsaber combat. This is why this part of the debate is very crucial. Because whoever wins this, most likely wins the matchup as well.

This is an all out fight, not just a duelling only. Yoda is more skilled than Mace in terms of lightsaber combat as being confirmed as a level 9 whereas Mace is only a level 8 that is border line level 9 fighter:

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."

Source: https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=908

If you pay attention to the quote, Gillard is talking about duelling, not the Force. And you've admitted that Yoda is more powerful, so comparing them as Force users would be pointless.

Both master Yoda and Master Windu have mastered all VI forms of lightsaber combat, so there's really little to compare here. However, Mace Windu also mastered his own, signature style called Vaapad - form VII. It is described as very agressive and unpredictable style, that also allowes Mace Windu to create his ultimate weapon - it's turning his inborn darkess into his own light side power.

"I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light."―Mace Windu

Using a highly unpredictable and aggressive style against master Yoda, who will get tired quicker, does not know this style himself and is also vulnerable to it because of his naturally defensive posture (short stature forced)... might be just the little detail Mace Windu needs to win in a duel with Yoda. Again, it's probably not a big advantage, but it still is an advantage when it comes to mastery of the lightsaber forms, and when comparing two high tier masters - a details usually matter the most.

That's cool... I guess.

But here's a hole in your argument: Yoda does know what Vaapad is:

"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen." - Shatterpoint.

He describes it as a powerful Form, the deadlist of all, but dangerous... Do you still think Yoda doesn't know what it is?

Dueling feats:

There are many very impressive feats in Mace's corner here. Surprisingly - much more by sheer numbers then in Yoda's corner too. He easily won duels against incredibly powerful opponents, capable of fodderizing other jedi masters at many occasions. This alone is a testament to his strength and experience in this category.

That's impressive, but it's been stated that Yoda’s lightsaber skills made him a match for anyone in combat:

"Although it was extremely rare for Yoda to use a lightsabre in combat, when there was no alternative, he was a match for anyone." - Star Wars Fact Files

So yes, Yoda can definitely match Mace as well.

His "ez" victory against Jango Fett. Best bounty hunter in the galaxy, known for killing jedi masters with his bare hands in the past...

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Jango has only used his bare hands to kill Padawans, not masters. Mace had trouble defeating Jango.

Him one-shotting Grievous in his prime (TCW Grievous has feats like fighting 6 jedi at the same time and winning, 3 council masters included)

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That's a Force feat, not a duelling feat.

fending off mother Talzin, known to be equal or even a superior in power to Darth Sidious

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Windu's fight against Talzin was inconclusive and nothing suggests Talzin is equal or superior to Sidious in duelling. While an argument could be made that she is Sidious's near equal, that's irrelevant. Talzin easily got beaten by Sidious in a duelling only contest while using Dooku's body, as Sidious notes that she possesses none of Dooku's skills.

Making Count Dooku run for his life, using droids for distraction.

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He didn't make Dooku run for his life. Dooku wasn't in the mood to fight Windu because he was concerned about Grievous, so he prioritized that over fighting Mace.

And many others.

Which doesn't make him better than Yoda. Yoda is factually more skilled than Mace as confirmed by Nick Gillard.

However, feat I'd like to focus on is the one which we can use to actually compare these two. And that is Mace's/Yoda's duels with Sidious. We've seen them both fight the most powerful and skilled Sith Lord in the history of Star Wars Universe - Darth Sidious in his prime.

Sidious was absolutely not in his Prime, he reached his Prime in DE:

"His Force skills have increased significantly in the six years since he was last seen in Return of the Jedi." - Dark Empire Sourcebook.

And ROTJ Sidious has also been confirmed to be stronger than ROTS by multiple Sources IIRC, but I can't find them.

And both were clearly holding their ground. However, Mace Windu emerged victorious from the lightsaber duel part of his fight against Sidious - while we have no idea how the same fight went down in Yoda's case, because the fight cuts in the middle of their lightsaber combat and then skips right into their force combat.

Question: Why have you arrived to the conclusion that Windu emerged victorious in his lightsaber duel with Darth Sidious? All he did was disarm him, and that only happened because Sidious allowed Windu to do that. Sidious clearly threw the fight because Anakin literally arrives at the exact same scene mere seconds later. Are you under the impression Windu defeated Sidious because George Lucas supposedly said so from the ROTS Commentary? I'm afraid you're wrong because here's how George Lucas talked about the scene by saying this:

George Lucas: Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later.

Source - Revenge of the Sith Commentary.

If you paid attention to the context of the Commentary when he states that Mace overpowered the Emperor, Lucas was described that scene as how an audience member perceives the scene - how it looks from an audience interpretation. It wasn't a confirmation of whether Mace actually won. And even if it was, it doesn't contradict the idea that Sidious allowed Mace to win. So in the context of the quote Windu supporters keep using, Lucas was describing the scene on what appears to be happening, not on whether Mace actually won.

An argument can be made, that Yoda most likely won the trade there, and that Palpatine withdrawn to gain more distance to utilize his force abilities. However, this is still a speculation, and not a feat.

I'm not going to say that Yoda won, but we do know for a fact that Yoda matched Darth Sidious in terms of lightsaber skill, meaning that they fought as equals until Yoda eventually lost:

"Sidious battles with passion and fury, only to be matched every blow by Yoda's calm, measured skill." - Star Wars: Beware of the Sith

While for Windu, there are no Sources that remotely support the idea that he actually matched Sidious, and when I say match Sidious - I mean fighting as an equal to a Sidious that is absolutely fighting at full capacity with no plans of throwing the fight.

An argument can be also made (and was made many, many times in this forum) that Mace's lightsaber feat against Sidious also had another side to it, and that Sidious let Mace Windu take the upper hand to some unknown extent, knowing that Anakin would come to save him and that it would help in turning him into Vader. However, that's also a speculation, not a fact.

It's speculation that is supported and/or suggested by the Revenge of the Sith Novelisation and Pablo Hidalgo. But I will not through that because not only writing it would be time consuming, not only is it not the topic we're discussing, but there's a much quicker and easier way of doing it by citing Ian McDiarmid confirmation:

Question: Ian my wife is your biggest fan in the Universe and for years we've had an argument about whether or not you threw the fight with Mace Windu or did he beat you?

Ian McDiarmid: I mean uh... Of course he didn't beat me (laughs). Yeah, Sam Jackson beat me? Yeah to a pulp really!

Source - Ian McDiarmid Tales from the Dark Side Panel - Star Wars Celebration 2017 Orlando.

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Although Ian was laughing while he responded to that question, that doesn't automatically mean he was joking. The Sidious vs Windu fight is a very controversial debate that's been raging on for more than a freaking decade, if any Star Wars authority was asked that question, they would likely be quite nervous and kind of laugh because they know it's controversial.

The argument from the other side can be made here as well - that Sidious could not know for sure if Anakin would turn (or just if he was fast enough) to save him from Mace Windu's execution.

Considering the fact that he literally got disarmed seconds before Anakin arrived, I'd say it's pretty obvious that he knew Anakin was going to turn up.

And in that case, he surely wouldn't risk his career, plans and put even his life on tip of Mace's Windu's sword just to gain an apprentice... whom he'd later want to replace anyway. So the argument goes both ways, and I don't think it's the place to argue about that.

Sidious wasn't at any risk at all. Sith don't gamble on their well being for something like that. And Sidious did not plan on replacing Anakin because Anakin had a very high Force potential that would be very useful for the Dark Side.

George Lucas also confirmed, that Mace Windu is capable of dueling Sidious on even ground. "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," - George Lucas.

Windu can only compete with Sidious in the context that Windu is amped which is heavily implied in the Revenge of the Sith Novel due to the sudden realisation that the Republic (which Windu loves) has fallen under control over the Sith who also happened to be controlling the Clone Wars (which killed off a lot of Windu's Jedi companions):

"Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.

Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."

For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.

He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.

And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.

Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.

He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.

They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—

That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—

All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—

Has all been for nothing.

Because it was all done to save the Republic.

Which was already gone.

Which had already fallen.

The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.

Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire,weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways.He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source." - Revenge of the Sith Novel.

And what makes this even more compelling is that Lucas has actually reviewed the ROTS Novel and edited it. In fact,he literally went over it word by word and trimmed a lot of EU references. Here's a direct confirmation from the Author of the Novel:

Question: What were Mr. Lucas's line-edits like? Was he a tough editor?

Matthew Stover: Not tough so much as exceedingly detailed, though I suspect he would have been very tough indeed if I hadn't been quite so scrupulously faithful to the spirit of his story. I mean, he literally went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections. As I mentioned earlier, he trimmed a number of the EU references -- especially ones that harkened back to some of the older material that I'm guessing he'd rather not re-avow as part of Official Continuity, if you see what I mean. There was only one cut -- actually a series of cuts, of a continuing metaphor of which I had been particularly proud -- that surprised me (and, in fact, upset me; I don't mind telling you that this was the first time in my career that I've thrown an actual Full-Blown Diva Hissy-Fit, in a conference call with LucasBooks, howling that they go back and tell Mr. Lucas that "He just can't do this to My Book!"). The funny thing was that after I had calmed down -- and survived the migraine I'd given myself -- I realized that not only was Mr. Lucas right and I was wrong (in the sense that making this series of cuts tightened the book and cleaned up the thematic arc), but that doing it his way also brought into much clearer focus a powerful moral point... and I found I had been arguing against something I actually really agreed with. Oh, it was embarrassing!

Source - Matthew Stover interviewed

So yes, Stover's depiction on Windu's fight with Sidious is approved by Lucas himself, so yes I can definitely conlude that Mace Windu can only compete with Darth Sidious in the circumstances of being amped by his love for the Republic. And remember this: Windu was amped by his love for the Rebulic after Kolar, Tiin and Fisto were killed by Sidious, which leads me to my next point: When Sidious killed all 3 of those Jedi in Windu's presence, Windu didn't realise they were killed when it happened:

"Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade." - The Complete Visual Dictionary.

At this point, it's quite obvious that Windu can only compete with Sidious under specific circumstances, unlike Yoda - who is on the same level as Sidious.

The fact is - Mace Windu has defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel on screen, and it's an actual feat, even stated in his wiki page to be authentic and his most impressive one.

Windu's wiki page is Non Canon.

Yoda did not.

Yoda lost after a very hard fought battle, whereas Mace never defeated Sidious at all.

And it is a dueling feat advantage in Mace Windu's corner. Summarizing, Mace Windu is a superior to Yoda in dueling feats - both in their numbers and -even if slightly- in their quality, comparing their top feats.

No he isn't. Windu never defeated Sidious, Windu never managed to compete with Sidious without any amplification, Windu was never stated to actually match Sidious, Windu has failed to stomp combatants that Sidious has such as Darth Maul.

That concludes my analysis about their fighting skills and dueling abilities. When comparing the two we can clearly see they are in the same league, as they are both capable of similar high tier feats. However, slight differences show, that Mace Windu has a final edge in this category as well. His knowledge on exclusive forms of combat, his numerous dueling feats and his final confrontation against the ulatimate villain all prove that he is one step ahead of Yoda when it comes to fighting.

We'll have to disagree on this.

Last thing I will mention here is:

(2.3 Force abilities)_

There is no doubt, that overall prowess of Yoda is above Windu's. Yoda's connection with the force is deeper then anyone within the order. However Mace's understanding of the force should not be fodderized as well. I will try to prove here, that although Yoda is a superior force user, Mace Windu - because of his unique and specific power set and approach to using the force in combat - is capable of holding his own against master Yoda, even find an edge here and there.

No, Windu would get destroyed by Yoda in terms of Force abilities.

Application of the force in single combat:

Master Windu is seen utilizing the force in single combat on almost every occasion possible. Sometimes he even uses the force to stop the duel before it begins (his fight vs Grievous) Master Yoda on the other hand utilizes his force abilities to great magnitudes when on a battlefield - we've seen him destroy entire space crafts and battalions of droids with just his force abilities in TCW cartoon. I doubt Mace Windu is capable of repeating his feats (he also has impressive battle feats in TCW... just not that impressive I guess), at least not on such scale and with such ease. But when facing a single, powerful opponent, it's clear that Master Windu has a more direct approach then Master Yoda - who uses his force abilities mainly for his defenses or to counterattack. He takes little to no actual offensive approaches with the force in his duels. The difference in the approach between the two leads to a conclusion that Mace Windu would use his powers more often and more effectively compared to Yoda, simply because he is used to doing it in the middle of battle, and it's more in character for him. Below examples of Mace Windu winning his fights, by force-stomping his opponents.

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Great, Windu has successfully used the Force to stomp Quinlan Vos and Sora Bulq... Who are absolute fodder in comparism to Yoda. And Yoda has definitely offensively used the Force:

Yoda slams 2 Royal Guards in the wall with enough force to knock them out:

Source - Revenge of the Sith.

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Yoda unleashes a Force push that sends Sidious flying across the room:

Source - Revenge of the Sith.

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So yeah, Yoda does use the Force offensively, Windu isn't the only guy who does it - and Yoda will definitely dominate Windu through the use of the Force.

Most likely Yoda would be capable of defending against anything Windu is capable of throwing at him - so maybe it's exactly an "edge". But I think it is important to note this, because it is an important character trait, and it makes the difference in the way they will use their abilities in a battle.

Yoda isn't just going to use the Force defensively, he's also going to dodge them by moving out of the way, and I've already proven that Yoda uses the Force offensively, so your logic is wrong.

Unique powers that can give a character the edge:

Finally, Yoda and Mace both have different signature or as some call them favorite force powers. Their more well known powers like telepathy, telekinesis, force push are on a similar, very high level, and I really believe Mace Windu - although he is not as impressive as Master Yoda and definitely doesn't have an advantage here - can still hold his ground in this area.

No, he won't...

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Example of Master Windu's powerful force push that shatters entire squad of droids to pieces - even destroyers. Feat easily comparable to Yoda's achievements with force push.

No it isn't. Here are exampls of Yoda's Force feats that vastly outlcass Windu's:

Master Yoda uses telekinesis to cause an avalanche that wipes out several Chameleon Droids:

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Master Yoda telekinetically lifts dozens of Destroyer Droids and holds them in the path of Separatist starfighters:

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Master Yoda uses telekinesis to lift massive pieces of the Ilum Jedi Temple:

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Master Yoda telekinetically forces droid transports back into their landing craft and the pushes it back:

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While telekinetically pushing a Separatist landing craft, Yoda uses the Force to grab another one and slam it into the former craft, destroying both of them:

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Credit goes to Aurbere for the GIFs and descriptions.

However the main focus here I'd like to go to the powers unique to the characters like Yoda and Mace Windu. This is where I see Mace Windu getting an edge in this category.

Mace Windu is known for his unique ability called Shatterpoint, which is a force power that allows him to use the force with absurd precision and find a weak spot in anyone and anything when it occurs. Because of this ability he can use his other force powers to his fullest potential, always in the way they need to be used to achieve desired effects. Mace Windu's concentration on the force in the middle of the battle is also legendary. I think this and his ability to use Shatterpoint makes him incredibly dangerous force user and in a completely different way then Yoda. While Yoda is a great Telepath and can defend himself against energy attacks such as force lightning with Tutaminis, these powers are more or less uselss against Mace Windu and do not really counter him in any way. But Shatterpoint and Maces battle concentration will definitely help Mace Windu in his fight against Yoda.

Windu's Shatterpoint is definitely an impressive Force ability, but he has never demonstrated any Shatterpoint feats that are impressive enough for it to be a significant factor against Yoda. And considering how Mace is hopelessly outclassed by Yoda in TK, Yoda's vastly superior TK would definitely be a factor.

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Mace Windu using Shatterpoint is able to burst a droid to original pieces and use them as bullets.

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Mace Windu's concentration on the force is so high, he can completely ignore an army of droids shooting at him as he thinks of a plan.

Army of Super battle Droids are not comparable to Yoda; you can't make the assumption that Windu's use of Shatterpoint against those Droids does not mean he actually has an edge against Yoda in the Force.

In conclusion, I really believe that although Yoda is a more powerful force user, Mace Windu can still hold his own in this category, reason being:

1. Most impressive Yoda's feats are accomplished outside of direct combat - for example on a large battlefield - and with extended concentration time available to him. When it comes to personal combat and duels their force feats are far more equal.

No they aren't. Some of Yoda's TK feats in OCW are accomplished during direct combat without any extended concentration time.

2. Mace Windu has the advantage because of his battle concentration and shatterpoint, that may help him close the gap in power between him and Yoda, defending better against his force assaults, as he can sens and see them coming even before they happen.

What the hell is "battle concentration"? Have you confused it with battle meditation or did you make it up? Battle meditation and Shatterpoint isn't going to work against a powerhouse like Yoda.

3. Mace Windu can even get an edge in this category, if he uses Shatterpoint when Yoda is already tired with battle. Worn off Yoda will eventually make an opening, and Mace Windu will immediately exploit it.

Shatterpoint's not going to work because Yoda is not going to get tired.

Well, that's it for now ;) In conclusion:

- Mace Windu has many minor and major advantages when it comes to his physical feats and capabilities.

- Mace Windu has a decent advantage when it comes to fighting skills and dueling feats.

- Mace Windu is not as powerful in the force as Master Yoda, but he can hold his ground against him when it comes to using force in duels as their feats are more comparable there; and he can even use his signature Shatterpoint ability that Yoda doesn't have to gain an upper hand at some point.

Because of these reasons, Mace Windu takes the win in my opinion. Peace!

Here's my conclusion:

  • Yoda is factually more skilled as repeatedly confirmed by several Star Wars Sources.
  • Yoda is factually more powerful as repeatedly confirmed by several Star Wars Sources.
  • Yoda has vastly superior Force feats.
  • Yoda has been confirmed as matching Sidious in lightsaber combat; Mace has not.
  • Yoda did not need to be amped to compete with Sidious.
  • Yoda's old age has never had been a significant disadvantage by giving him any stamina problems

Summary: Yoda stomps hard, kind of like this:

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Or perhaps worse :)

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I'm going to edit my counter because ther are some grammar mistakes and I accidently repeated a point, but I'll have to wait until tomorrow to edit my post.

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Oh yea, the response is here! :) I can already see it's of good quality and will be a challenge. Worth the wait! I'll respond back as soon as I can.

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#44  Edited By ViperSixteen

@jashro44: I'm trying to edit my post in this CAV but it keeps failing because of some error Comic Vine keeps mentioning.

Edit: Nevermind, it's been fixed.

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@yousufkhan1212:

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A good response and several points worth talking through. Let's get right into it!

@thoromdil:

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I have finally finished my first counter (which nearly took 5 hours to write). Now let's do this:

Since Mace Windu's character is very well known on this forum, I won't spam basic knowledge about him, but rather jump right into two subjects I think should be mentioned when debating Yoda vs Mace Windu. First is the difference in Mace Windu's and Yoda's approach as a character, and the second are advantages Mace Windu has over Yoda in this matchup.

We'll see about that.

1. The difference between Mace Windu's and Yoda's approach as a character:

There is no doubt Yoda was presented as a superior jedi between the two while the prequels were first being filmed. G. Lucas's idea seems to be that Yoda is the most powerful jedi there is, while Mace Windu is his close second. There are several statements to prove that. f.e:

"we know he's (Mace Windu) second only to Yoda." Nick Gillard

"I'm like the second baddest guy in the universe." Samuel L. Jackson

and others.

Yes, George Lucas's idea was that Mace Windu would second only to Yoda as a fighter which is supported by multiple Sources. However, this does not necessarily mean Windu is Yoda's close second, nor does it preclude the idea that Yoda is vastly above Windu as a fighter.

Well, it means exactly that. Some of the quotations say specifically that Mace Windu is second ONLY to Yoda (see above), which literally says us that there is nobody in the galaxy closer in power to Yoda then Windu. Some time below I also quote G. Lucas saying that only Mace Windu and Yoda can be considered equals with Palpatine, which further supports this claim, stating literally that these 3 are all in the same league of power and can compete with one another. If G. Lucas says that himself, it means there's little place for debate here. Mace is very close in power to Yoda, saying Yoda can stomp him or that he is vastly above him in any way would be pretty much disagreeing with the writer of the lore, so I suggest we don't go there.

It is understandable to perceive Yoda as a superior jedi to Windu in a way you perceive a general as a superior soldier to a much younger and less experienced commando. But does that mean that when they go down in a dojo general will win a h2h?

That's not now I percieve Yoda as why he's a superior Jedi to Windu; you can't bring up a comparism between military generals and soldiers up and compare it with Force users when it comes to Force users. Experience on the battlefield is a very minor factor to Force users.

That's... just not true. Battlefield IS what made most of the jedi and sith powerful. Anakin being the best example. He grew from a cocky padawan who despite his ridiculous force potential couldn't stand up for a second to Sith Lords such as Dooku, to a fully matured jedi knight who defeated Dooku in a solo fight and was considered Palpatine the ultimate desciple. And all because of the clone wars, because of his countless encounters on the field. There are many more examples.

Vader has more experience on the battlefield against opposing Force users than Sidious does, but does that stop Vader and Sidious having a fight in lightsaber combat? Of course not. Sidious would still humiliate Vader, unlike you comparism you used with military generals and soldiers.

Well, there is definitely much more to that then you seem to portray here. Vader wasn't Sidious's equal despite being on a field more often - that's right. But he was also a handicapped, broken dark jedi, with unstable emotions, second thoughts about killing his wife and betraying his friends, who could never reach his full potential as a Sith both because of his many limitations and his suit (Palpatine himself made sure suit is a handicap to him) and because of his conflicted feelings that caused him to never fully become a sith or a jedi. That's hardly a competition to a complete Sith Lord like Palpatine. Battlefield, if anything, actually HELPED Vader become more powerful, as over the years he became more used to his suits limitations and even learned to use some of the suits capabilities as his advantage. All because he had a place and time to learn that - during his battlefield encounters. So I don't really think what you say makes much of a sens here. To the contrary, it supports my example.

I think not necessarily.

I think it will.

Well, it won't. Battlefield experience = practice, practice = better effects every time. Less battlefield experience = less practice = diminishing of your powers. Look at Yoda in Empire Strikes Back. Just 20 years off the actual fighting field and he became a shadow of himself. I really think I made my point here, so let's move on. ;)

After all, generals work in the field is probably limited for years at that point, while the commando daily engages in direct combat, and probably trains more often as well. General is past his prime, even if he aged well, while the commando is beating the world record in pushups every other day. I hope you know what I mean.

Here's the loophole in your comparism: Unlike generals and commandos that are just normal Human beings, Jedi can use the Force to augment their physical attributes whether they are old or not.

Well, shortly I will prove Windu's force augmentation is far beyond that of Yoda, so this will be also another nail to this comparison I built. Jedi are not so different from our soldiers. Obviously they use different tools for war. Jedi using their jedi fighting techniques and force abilities, while soldiers use their tactical training, positioning, guns, war machines etc. But either of these need to practice their skills, or they diminish. The most practical training where the most real challenges are - is the actual battlefield. That's why Mace has the advantage here. Because he is on the field at all times, and performs great feats there - while Yoda only occasionally steps it, still remaining the most powerful jedi there is by his meditations and deep connection to the force - but letting his practical skills and physicality diminish.

Unlike generals, age is hardly a disadvantage that stops from from being able to participate in open war on the battle field. Look at Count Dooku as an example from this quote:

"Physically, the Count's age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force-unimaginably more subtle than the boy who had watched water-skeeters in the Jedi gardens all those years ago - he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, senses keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold." - Yoda: Dark Rendezvious

As you can see from the quote above, Dooku's age was described as "rarely a handicap."

Rarely a handicap, means never a handicap? I think not. It means what it says - rarely a handicap, so still a handicap, just not very often. Just because like I said - someone "aged well" doesn't mean his age doesn't have any disadvantages. Dooku gets tired in a prolonged battles. Unlike some younger force users like Mace Windu ;) One of my favorite examples is his fight against the nightsisters. Someone on the level of Dooku shouldn't really have any troubles with this fight. Two of the attackers are not even force sensitive, and the third is Ventress, who Dooku proved to be no match for him several times. But as the duel goes on, Dooku slows down, starts gasping for air, and finally gets easily disarmed and nearly killed. If Nightsisters didn't hesitate and give him time and space to make advantage of his force lightning ability, he would be dead, because his stamina can't sustain him for a several minute duel... And that exactly proves my point. Do not judge things to be nonfactors when they obviously matter a lot in the lore. Stamina DOES diminishes with age, and force augmentation can not help you just replace it completely.

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Not only does it heavily imply that his strength in the Force circumvents his old age, but it also implies that he is more physically capable than he was as a Jedi due to his increased power in the Force and that he is physically better than most Humans half his age (early 40s because 83 divided by 2 is 41.5 years).

Obviously a sith who is in his 80's should be more physically capable then a regular human in his 40's. My dad in his 40's could not even do a front flip anymore :) Sith augment their physicality with the force and keep practicing physically their whole life, so obviously they are better then this even at their old age... But that's it. The text does not suggest anything more, so I don't get what are you trying to pull off here. It does not imply he is more physically capable to his former jedi self, it never says this, it compares his to regular humans half his age. It also never implies "his strength in the Force circumvents his old age" it says it's rarely a handicap, which means exactly that. Point made, Dooku is an old sith and his age CAN be a disadvantage. Similarly, Yoda is an old jedi, and his age CAN be a disadvantage. We'll prove it some more below.

This logic would also apply to Yoda too, as he is the most powerful Jedi during the PT era:

"Yoda was the oldest and most powerful Jedi in the order." - Star Wars: The Sith Wars

There are a lot more quotes, but I'll save them for later...

Yea this logic DOES apply to Yoda, meaning his age also will be sometimes a handicap to him... ;) And that proves my point.

Similarly with Yoda and Windu, Yoda is hundreds of years old and is known for his unrivaled connection with the force. He is definitely a better tactician, a much wiser master and teacher, and he has much deeper understanding of the force. Mace Windu is much younger and less experienced, but he is a warrior first, not a teacher first, and we see him engage in direct combat a lot more often. While Yoda is known primarily for his wisdom as a teacher, Mace Windu is known primarly for his power as a warrior. They have very different approach to being a jedi as characters. Yoda personifies a perfect jedi councilor, while Mace Windu personifies a perfect jedi guardian. You can see that when Anakin is praising his own master, comparing him to the top duo in a very specific way:

"As wise as master Yoda, as powerful as master Windu" Anakin AotC

Just because they have a different different approach as characters does not mean Mace s comparable to Yoda,

Well it doesn't mean they are comparable, it means they are DIFFERENT. And the differences will matter later on in the argument. Also G. Lucas's quotes prove their are comparable, so case is closed there.

the quote you're using is Anakin's description of what Yoda and Mace are primarily known for from Anakin's perspective. Yoda is best known for his wisdom, Windu is best known for his power. You've also not realised that quote was Anakin using Yoda and Windu's primary characteristics to praise Obi-Wan Kenobi. And just because Yoda is primarily known for his wisdom does mean he can't kick ass like Windu can.

I never said that this is the proof. I just said exactly what you described - that Mace is known best for his power... which proves my point about him having a warrior mentality, unlike Yoda with his councilor teach-like mentality. This battle is not about who is overall more powerful, but about who is more effective 1 vs 1 fighter. Because this is what Mace Windu and Yoda will be doing in this matchup - they will not lift big objects in competition of "Who has better telekinesis" they will go down in all out fight, using primarly their dueling skills, physical attributes and abilities they have in personal combat. That's why Mace will have plenty of advantages later on in this fight. Because he is a warrior, and the stuff that matters most in this matchup, he just does better.

Because of this difference in their character, they also have a different approach when it comes to combat.

Their difference in character does not automatically mean they have a different approach to combat, but let's see what your logic is:

Ummm... but it translates exactly into that. Yoda spends most of his time teaching in the temple, meditating and helping other jedi make good decisions. Windu spends half of his time doing that, because of his responsibilities as Master of the Order, but the other half he spends on the field, fighting and practicing his personal combat and fight-oriented force abilities. Their difference in character DOES mean they have different approach to combat. Mace does it a lot more, Yoda does it a lot less. And this has it's effects on their skills and abilities. That's my point.

And here comes the second thing I wanted to talk about, which is:

2. Advantages Mace Windu has over Yoda in this matchup:

Like the OP says, this is the Ep 3 version of both characters. So this is a Mace Windu in his prime versus a 800 years old Master Yoda. First advantage I'd like to name here is maybe the most obvious one. But it is very important, has many sides to it, and is probably crucial to this fight. And it is:

(2.1 Mace's physical advantage)

Stature and reach

If you ever tried swordplay, you know that reach is very important. If you have shorter stature, or even if your stature is almost equal, but your opponent simply has slightly longer arms - it proves to be an advantage. Yoda having a lightsaber much shorter then an average one, further underlines this difference. The difference in stature, arm length and general reach is not a nonfactor when it comes to Mace Windu and Yoda, especially since both are so close in skill. Mace Windu can safely stay behind his guard and perform lethal blows without a lot of movement, while Yoda needs to utilize gymnastics and close the distance every time he wants to attack or counterattack. Yoda is a master when it comes to making up for his lack of reach, but it is still a disadvantage, because master Yoda has to simply try a lot harder to accomplish what Windu can while barely moving.

Just because Windu is taller than younger does not mean he has a physical advantage.

Dude, again, it means EXACTLY that. "Being younger" is maybe questionable because of the whole force augmentation thing, but we're talk about it later on... But how is being taller not an advantage in a fight?? :D :D claiming that is just funny to me. As an amateur martial artist who spend years training both h2h combat in different styles, and sword fighting as well - the difference in body size, stature, reach... are ALWAYS big advantages in combat. You can't go around this. Being taller, and having longer arms, means you can attack your enemy while he can't attack you. That's how simple it is. How does it not apply to lightsaber combat? Unless Yoda can use the force to make his size bigger, there's just no way to go around this argument. You don't fight with some invisible power whips in lightsaber duels, you fight with LIGHTSABERS. You need to REACH your opponent to kill him. Which is HARDER to do, when you have a stature of a dwarf. They also use weapons and need reach to strike one another. There is NO DIFFERENCE in this aspect. Similarly with the length of their blades. Try fighting someone with a sword while you have a dagger. I'm not saying it's impossible, especially if you are very skilled, but the point is IT IS an objective advantage to have a longer reach of your weapon. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Mace does have an advantage of reach and stature over Yoda. We can argue about how much these advantages matter, but it doesn't change a fact that they exist.

Yoda's vastly superior Force augmentation based on vastly superior Force abilities based on his feats (which we'll get to later) renders Windu's younger body useless.

Except Windu has superior force augmentation abilities, and I'll gladly prove that. Having superior force abilities in general doesn't mean automatically that ALL of your force powers are better. You can't argue Yoda's force crush is better then Windu's because it's a dark side technique Yoda never used in the series. Similarly, force augmentation is a technique used specifically in a field and that's how Mace has just more time to practice it then Yoda. Mace is an expert in using it and has feats that are far above master Yoda's. So don't jump to conclusions like that. Superior force abilities in general =/= superior ALL force powers automatically. So Windu's younger body will not be rendered useless, to the contrary, the difference only grows because Windu has superior force augmentation feats AND superior natural physicality.

And you can't use a swordplay's logic in this; this is lightsaber combat, not a sword fight that is a battle that's dictated by pure swordfighting skills.

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Jango Fett - disarms, defeats and kills a jedi master purely with his superior fighting skills and natural physicality.

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General Grievous - Fights and defeats 3 jedi masters and kills their 2 jedi padawans all at the same time - only with his superior fighting skills and natural physicality (he also uses his superior reach and stature to his advantage a lot in this fight)

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Boba Fett fought Vader several times and even occasionally defeated him - purely with his tactics, natural physicality and fighting skills.

I hope that's enough evidence for you. You are wrong. I CAN use swordplay logic in this. To the contrary, if you do not use it, it proves you know little of Star Wars.

Lightsaber combat is not dictated only by sword fighting logic, but it is VASTLY determined by it. There are countless examples of non-force sensitives going toe to toe vs force users and even defeating them. Saying fighting skills or sword fighing logic do not matter because of the force is laughable. It's just not true, proof is everywhere.

Sidious is Maul's superior in lightsaber combat, but Maul's still comparable as a duelist, but Sidious would still speed blitz him due to vastly superior speed from vastly superior Force abilities that makes him too fast for Maul to compete with due to Sidious's vastly superior Force augmentation, and Sidious would still outmuscle Maul. Without Force augmentation, Maul would be stronger than Sidious. But with Force augmentation, Sidious can easily handle Maul's strength and Savage's Opress's strength at the same time, and overpowered Maul in a blade lock once Sidious stopped toying with Maul.

Yes, and? I agree with what you said here, but that's Maul vs Emperor we are talking about. Savage is a non factor rookie. But even Maul and Emperor are light years away in power and abilities, there's plenty of proof for that, and their fight is the best example. Palpatine demonstrated he could kill Maul with a gesture before their fight even started. As I proved before, that's completely not the case with Mace and Yoda, who Lucas qualifies as being in the same league, and who have very close and comparable feats. So yeah I agree, but that's not the case here. To the contrary, soon I'll prove Mace can easily beat Yoda in force augmentation.

On the subject of Yoda's use of gymnastics that he used against Dooku (who is much taller than Yoda and used less body movements), Yoda effortlessly humiliated Dooku without breaking a sweat whereas Dooku was exhausted. This is supported by the AOTC Junior Novel:

"Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.

The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.

The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable." - Attack of the Clones Juior Novel.

Tell me... When Yoda has lightsaber battle with Count Dooku that's described as "his lightsaber moved efforetlessly", "he did not even have to step back", "Yoda's lightsaber was unmovable" and wins because Dooku retreats and uses Anakin and Obi-Wan to attract Yoda's attention... Did Yoda try very hard in that victory?

Victory?... You call that victory? Dooku escaped before they finished. Well there's an issue with Novels. First, they are not really describing what actually happened in the movies in many, many cases. Novels are not written by Lucas and do not share the same perspective he had when directing his movies. They are made to sound nicely and poetic, many times at the cost of telling what actually happened. So yeah, this OP from the Novel is very nice, but it also doesn't match the actual fight. There was no point in the fight when Dooku was breathing hard or anything... To the contrary, in the actual fight in the movies, Yoda was the one breathing hard at the end... Because he had to make like 4+ back and front flips to actually reach Dooku, while he could just fling his wrist to reach Yoda. And if you ask me, I prefer to stick with original material coming from Lucas then from side writers, especially when the two seem to tell a different story. Also, claiming Yoda did not have to try hard to fight Dooku is a misunderstanding. Yoda let Dooku escape. He couldn't defeat him effortlessly or stomp him with the force from the start, their battle went down to lightsabers, was prolonged, and didn't end with Yoda disarming Dooku or even clearly getting an upper hand... It just ended with Dooku distracting Yoda and running away because he realized he can not beat him easily, maybe that he can't even beat him at all. - That said, I don't think Dooku could actually beat Yoda. Not even close. But it was not an easy fight, or a force stomp. It was a prolonged lightsaber fight. Yoda let Dooku escape so there's nothing about that duel to make Yoda proud. If anything, it confirms my theory that because Yoda was so long out of the field, he became much weaker in personal combat. When he actually was forced to fight he couldn't easily defeat opponent that is not even close to his level in the force.

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Did he try harder than Dooku because he was shorter than the Sith Lord?

Yes, he did. Like I said it took a flick of wrist for Dooku to land a hit that could kill Yoda if it wasn't blocked. To achieve the same, Yoda had to close the distance by flipping into the air, and then use several other jumps and flips to avoid being counter attacked. So did he try harded? Of course he did. That doesn't mean he was losing, but he did have to use more abilities, more force augmentation, more time and movements to achieve the same as Dooku. So he did try harded.

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Did his use of gymnastics spend a lot of effort than Dooku's lesser use of body movements?

Yes it did. Yoda is a lot more powerful and uses his force augmentation with greater effects, so he was still winning despite that, but obviously it demanded more effort for him to do it.

It that all because he used a lot more effort through the use of gymnastics? It has nothing to do with the fact that he's much better than Dooku? Just a lot more effort on gymnastics, right?

I don't really understand that sentence... I think I made my point, so I'll move on.

Give me a break. Yoda absolutely humiliated and wiped the floor with Dooku,

I never questioned that he is better then Dooku, and that if Dooku hadn't run Yoda wouldn't win. I think Yoda would win. But he let Dooku escape and could not just effortlessly disarm him or force stomp him. So saying that he humiliated and wiped the floor with him is not exactly truth. Windu wiped the floor with Grievous - he force stomped him in a second. Yoda humiliated and wiped the floor with Ventress. He disarmed her with a gesture. But Yoda humiliated and wiped the floor with Dooku? I don't think so. It was a good fight, and Dooku although was losing his ground, did escaped and nearly killed Yoda, althoug he was fighting Anakin, then Obi Wan, and then Anakin again before - although Yoda was rested and fresh. Like I said. Yoda would win without a doubt, but not really a stomp or anything to be proud off.

and all of that was because he was better than him in every way. Stronger, faster, more skilled with a lightsaber, more powerful in the Force, had superior Force augmentation - the whole nine yards.

I think this conclusion is kinda out of thin air. Winning a duel doesn't automatically mean you are better in everything. I agree with most of what you said here but I can't see how is that a conclusion to this fight. Yoda was better in force abilities, because he shrugged everything Dooku threw at him. That's proven. Yoda is more skilled in lightsaber combat, because despite Dooku's superior reach, stature and everything, Yoda was still gaining and upper hand and forced Dooku to flee. This much is proven. The rest of what you said? Speculation.

Constitution and endurance

This brings me to my next point. Characters general constitution and endurance. Mace Windu, being a warrior first and seen numerous times on the field performing incredible physical showings for extended periods of time has a confirmed monstrous constitution. He never seems to be tired, and his ability to support his physicality with the force d. We never saw him make a misstep or fall over after an extended duel. He is extremely fit and like I mentioned - in his physical prime.

While Windu is incredibly impressive in terms of physicality, the idea that he never seems tired and his ability to support his physicality with the Force does not mean he won't get tired against Yoda.

Well if he didn't seem to be tired after fighting the Emperor... who defeated Yoda... then yeah, it actually is a pretty good proof he will not get tired against Yoda. At least it's a good proof he won't get tired FASTER then Yoda - who couldn't even support his body weight with his hand and was falling over in exhaustion after his duel with Palpatine.

Contrary to Yoda, who's age is getting to him, even if people would prefer to think otherwise. The fact is, when comparing Yoda and Mace Windu physically, there's no way to skip some major differences in their endurance. Yoda needs a cane or even a floating chair to support himself when out of combat, and extended combat sequences we've seen him perform were costly to him, as he was visibly getting tired at the end.

Yes, Yoda needs a cane and a floating chair to support himself out of combat - but so do a lot of old people, they do it do avoid inconvinience of old age.

Wait, weren't you just trying to prove a while eariler that Yoda's force augmantation means his age is not a handicap to him? So how does that tie up with him needing a cane ALL THE TIME besides the short moments when he fights? Dude he even took a cane to the Jedi Temple with him when he was fighting Order 66 troops, and there were enemies literally everywhere. That's not just an occasional luxury, he NEEDS it, even when he goes on the freakin battlefield. That's just fact!

Yoda's reliance on a cane happens because he's avoiding the inconvinience of old age. When did Yoda get visible tired at the end of which combat sequence?

How about his fight with Palpatine? He wasn't tired there, hmm?

In his fight against Count Dooku, Yoda's voice changes at the end of the fight, as he is gasping in between his words "fought well you have, my old padawan",

... Which isn't attributed to fatigue. It could easily be attribute to his frame of mind. Yoda is fighting a guy who used to his his Padawan - his companion - his friend.

So... you are suggesting that master Yoda, who is literally a stepping stone to jedi philosophy that teaches to control emotions and never get emotional and to separete emotions from the fight and etc... is getting EMOTIONAL in the fight with his old student? To the point when his voice breaks? XD Hahaha :D Ok bro, I love your logic and arguments so far, but you gotta admit, that's... like... just stupid, sorry, can't find another word. That's a million times less likely then just admitting he got "a little" tired after front and back flipping like crazy the entire fight to close and gain distance, making up for short stature.

This Padawan has turned to the Dark Side and Yoda is fighting this corrupted Padawan - so it's more likely that Yoda is emotionally distressed (but in a subtle context) than just being tired.

Like I said above, that's just silly compared to much more obvious explanation.

The AOTC Junior Novel depicts Yoda was being sad by Dooku's turn to the Dark Side:

"Plans of conquest,Yoda thought sadly. But a Jedi seeks not power. Truly, Dooku had left the path of the Jedi Order. He felt Dooku gathering power, and he bowed his head in shock and sorrow as he sensed the true source of the Count’s increased ability." - Attack of the Clones Junior Novel.

How does "thinking something sadly" translates to having your voice break from sorrow in mid-fight? For the last time, it makes no sens for Yoda - a perfect teacher who instructs other jedis how to control emotions at all times - to suddenly have an emotional breakdown in a fight. Him being tired after an intense duel is an OBVIOUS explanation.

Also, this isn't a Movies only dicussion, which leads to your next point:

and after a fight, we see him immediately summon his cane back to him to support himself, suggesting he can not support himself with the force for very long periods without getting troubled (again, contrary to Windu).

Yoda absolutely wasn't tired against Dooku at all. The AOTC Junior Novel outright describes Yoda's physical state as the opposite of what you described - so you are just speculation. Let's read the text from the Junior Novel again:

"Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.

The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.

The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable." - Attack of the Clones Juior Novel.

It describes Yoda as "his lightsaber moved efforetlessly", "he did not even have to step back", "Yoda's lightsaber was unmovable" ... All these descriptions contradicts your theory that Yoda was tired. So no, Yoda was not tired at all.

Ok I've already said what I think about saying Novels > Original material made by Lucas. If you do not agree with that, I'd like to know why exactly. This isn't movies only discussion, obviously, but when there's two different examples of the same event, a material made originally by the author of star wars- G. Lucas HAS to take the first place. Yoda DID summon his cane immediately after his fight against Dooku. He did looked tired and was gasping at the end of the fight. A Novel author may describe entire thing beautifully in very different perspective, but that can't be put above what actually happened and called "speculation". I can't agree with that.

Similarly when fighting against Palpatine, master Yoda grows tired to the point when he can not support physically his own weight with his hand and falls to his defeat. We even see him fall over when making a dodge in the "chair throwing" sequence.

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No - Yoda's defeat at the hands of Sidious did not happen because of fatigue.

Wow, I usually don't use that kinda words as an argument but I just have to tell you man... BULLSHIT!

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So Yoda did not get tired against Sidious? He didn't fall over when he was jumping around? He didn't fell to his defeat after being tossed by force lightning into cliff hanging situation? IT ALL HAPPENED, what is your argument against these FACTS? Let me guess, a some Novel OP, right?

It happened because Sidious was outright better than him:

"Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: That he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... Just - didn't - have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi - The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him." - Revenge of the Sith Novel.

Tell me, what do you think the Novel means when it describes Yoda in that context? I'll answer it for you: It means that Yoda's defeat happened because he couldn't defeat Darth Sidious. He did not possess the power in the Force to defeat Sidious. He did not possess the will power to defeat Sidious. He did not have a millennium of time to learn how to adapt to the ROT Sith

... I knew it xD

Dude, for the last time, movies > novels when the two speak about the same thing we can't just say movies are nonfactors and novels it's actually what happens. That's just bullshit, I will stand my ground here, because this is getting too far. You are using an alternative sources to undermine absolute facts and feats that are stepping stones in this argument. And this is just wrong.

The OP you bring up doesn't make any damn sens too. Yoda and Palpatine were both blown away by the Tutaminis/Lightning explosion. It was pure luck that Palpatine remained in the seat and Yoda fell down. If Palpatine fell down and Yoda remained in his place, the fight would've turned out completely differently. If Yoda had the strength to get back up from his cliff hanging position he could return to the fight and still win, but he was tired and fell. Yoda being incapable of defeating Sith of the current age is bullshit, he literally defeated Dooku the Sith Lord of this age, and Maul, the earlier Sith Lord was defeated by a rookie Obi Wan. I'm sorry, but Novels really can't be treated to be above everything in an argument, they can't be used as the only affixing to your point of view, especially not above what actually happened in the movies. George Lucas himself, again, says that Yoda COULD compete with the Emperor. He CONFIRMED that. He lost, yeah, but not because of some "can't handle the sith of this age" novel babbling. Please, use actual feats if you want to defend Yoda. I will not respect your quotes from writing sources if you use them exclusively to undermine feats from canon movie material, and if you do not present any other arguments.

Don't tell me that Yoda lost because he was tired - he lost because he wasn't strong enough to defeat Sidious, both combatively speaking and mentally.

I never said Yoda lost because he was tired. You completely twisted my word. I said he GOT tired. Which is a fact. The fact he got tired, proves that he CAN get tired in a serious fight. Let's just leave the subject on why he lost. I don't think we'll agree on that anyway. The point is - he DID got tired. His force augmentation has it's limits and his age matters. That's my point.

The verdict is - an extended duel against Mace Windu would surely tire Yoda down, and there is no reason to believe it would be short, when against Count Dooku Yoda could not achieve a swift victory.

He did not have a swift victory because he did not fight at full capacity due to his unwillingless to hurt Dooku as suggested when Yoda shows affection for Dooku twice:

"Always catch you will I, when you fall," Yoda said. "I swore it." - Yoda: Dark Rendezvious

Here's the other time:

"No game. Wasteful, this war is. Even you agree. Sent you the candle, did I: You know there can be coming home for you. Know this, both of us do, and if come back to the Temple you wish, I will take you there." - Yoda: Dark Rendezvious

What do you think Yoda means when he says "Always catch you will I, when you call", "I swore it", "Know this, both of us do, and if come back to the Temple you wish, I will take you there" when he meets Dooku again?

I'll answer it for you:

It means that Yoda is willing to take in a person who recieves the majority of the blame for the clone war - a war that has absolutely ravaged the republic, has led to the slaughter of hundreds of Jedi, a person who has himself slain scores of Jedi, a person who has fallen in line and apprentice to one of the most powerful Dark Lords of the Sith ever, a person who has utterly wrecked the peace in the galaxy - but despite all this... Yoda is willing to take such a person... Take such an abomination of the Jedi back to the temple.

... and that means he can't swiftly defeat him with force stomp or by disarming him...? Or in any other way...? I... really can't see your point here bro, sorry.

This is especially compelling when you realise Yoda is contradicting his own beliefs - a belief that once someone falls down to the Dark Side, there is no redemption for him, but that belief is suddenly forgotten.

It means Yoda is willing to take in a person who has:

  • Recieved the majority of the blame for the Clone Wars - a war that has absolutely ravaged the Republic.
  • Been responsible for the massacre of hundreds of Jedi.
  • Fallen in league and become an apprentice to one of the most cunning and evil Dark Lords of the Sith ever.
  • Shattered the peace of the Galaxy.
  • Spread destruction through out the entire Galaxy.
  • Disgraced the Jedi order.

Despite all that... Yoda is still willing to accept and take in an absolutel abomination of the the Jedi back to the Jedi Order which even some of the Jedi themselves are reluctant to accept. This is especially compelling when you realise that Yoda is also going against one of his own beliefs - a belief that when someone turns to the Dark Side... There is no way back or any chance of redemption. Remember what Yoda says in Episode V? Well, here you go:

Yoda: If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will!

Source - The Empire Strikes Back.

Yoda literally contradicts one of his own iconic beliefs and quotes by trying to convince Dooku to return to the Jedi Order even after Episode II. Why?

Because Yoda cares about Dooku. Fighting Dooku is the last thing Yoda wants to do, and fighting at full capacity sure isn't something Yoda really intends on doing.

Sorry, still don't get your point. Caring about Dooku is obvious. You didn't need to make an essay about Yoda taking blame and contradicting his beliefs or anything like that to make that point. He is his padawan. That's enough to understand the connection betwen the two. And it doesn't change a single thing in the verdic. WHY didn't Yoda want to fight at his full capacity? He cared about him, so what? Wouldn't he want even more to defeat him swiftly and take him back to jedi order? This is not making any sens, sorry. It's hardly a proof for anything, and it doesn't change the fact that Yoda failed to capture Dooku when he had a chance, and the fact that he cared about Dooku proves further that he should be trying even harded to do it at all costs.

If all of this doesn't scream "YODA DOES NOT WANT TO HURT DOOKU!!"or "YODA ISN'T FIGHTING AT FULL CAPACITY!!",then I really don't know what does. So in conclusion to this, the idea that Yoda would be tired in a fight with Windu because he did not achieve a swift victory against Dooku is absolutely illogical.

It's not. None of what you said screams "Yoda isn't fighting at full capacity". the "Yoda doesn't want to hurt Dooku" is obvious without all the things you said. But going easy is a speculation without any logical argument. You yourself quoted a novel when it says Yoda used the "full power of the true force" to withstand Dooku and make his saber unmovable. So... did he use the full power or was he going easy? Your own arguments begin to collapse here, because you just ground your arguments in very shallow and unstable reasoning. Obi Wan clearly cares for Anakin even more then Yoda for Dooku. But saying that in their final fight Obi Wan was going easy against Anakin is completely unreasonable. Obviously he was fighting as hard as he could. And he did end up hurting him too, although he didn't want to, and even asked Anakin "DON'T TRY IT" when he saw Anakin is about to make an opening he can exploit. But none of that proves Obi Wan is going easy, obviously he did not. Like I said, you kinda... wasted a lot of effort putting together an argument that is just not there. Yoda cares about Dooku. So he should want to end the fight even more swiftly, disabling him with the force, or disarming him before anyone gets hurt. But he did not. Why? Because he could not. The fight was hard-fought and Yoda was tired at the end. End of story.

Against tired Yoda, Windu may be able to utilize his reach advantage and other advantages even more, exploiting any opening his weakened opponent may reveal.

Windu's superior height is meaningless - Dooku (who is roughly equal to Mace and extremely fit for his old age) had the same height "advantage" against Yoda... And it did not allow him tire Yoda.

I already said enough about that above. Clearly, height advantage DOES matter. It doesn't mean that you will win if you are taller all the times. Again, you kinda twist my arguments to discard them easier. A height advantage of Mace over Yoda is a fact. It doesn't mean he will win because of that, but it is an advantage, and Windu will use it. When many of advantages like this one are gathered, verdict becomes clear.

Mace isn't going to tire Yoda, ever.

Well, since Lucas confirmed Mace and Palpatine are in the same league, and Yoda was dead tired after his fight against Palpatine - yes he can tire Yoda, and he will. For more arguments, look above, but I really think I exploited this subject, so let's move on.

Physical strength:

Here talking about actual physical strength without taking a force-supported feats would be laughable.

True.

;)

Obviously Mace Windu is many times stronger then Yoda, just because of the massive difference in their muscle weight. I think nobody has any doubts, that if even for a single second master Yoda would clash his lightsaber with Windu without supporting himself with the force, Mace Windu would momentarily disarm him. There's the "obvious" that. So we are going to talk about feats of physical strength they can achieve specifically while supporting themselves with the force. Mace Windu has many very impressive feats of physical strenght. One of my favorite being his ability to punch holes in a super battle droid with his bare hands.

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I do not believe Yoda has any strength feat to top that.

Sigh... First of all, the fact that Windu looks much stronger than Yoda, is taller than Yoda and has delivered punches that have smashed super battle droids does not mean he's got a strenght advantage.

Yoda's feat of being able to not get stomped by Sidious in lightsaber clashes is more impressive. Why? Because Sidious has demonstrated enough strength to handle the combined strength of Darth Maul and Savage Opress in lightsaber clashes and stomp a blood lusted TCW Maul in a blade lock.

... Um... when did Savage or Maul punch a hole in a super battle droids like in paper, or did anything even close to that strength? This argument is also very indirect. Yoda can clash blades against Emperor. Okay... But Mace Windu can too, and he can even disarm him. These kinda feats can go on forever - someone fought with this guy so he can also beat this guy - is an indirect argument that can go on forever all the way to jedi younglings. I can prove it and it's quite funny. Look. Emperor who has in your opinion strongest force augmentation fought Yoda and could clash sabers with him... who fought Dooku and could clash sabers with him, who fought Anakin and could clash sabers with him... who fought jedi younglings. Heck, on the security video we see some younglings could actually trade blows with Anakin and clash sabers with him too! So does that mean some jedi younglings can force augment same as Palpatine??? :D :D

Dude, obviously not. Indirect arguments lead nowhere. Please use ACTUAL feats of Yoda's strength if you want to prove his strength. Not him fighting some other person, who fought some other person etc.

I don't see Windu replicating any of that.

Actually Windu has even more impressive strength feats then that, so I'll just say it right now to show you Yoda really doesn't stand a chance in this category. He can outmuscle gigantic Gundark, who is basically a building tall 20 tons of muscle monster. Yeah... Sorry, Yoda is not even close to Mace Windu in strength feats. By any logic.

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The only time Windu has done anything remotely comparable was when he had a lightsaber battle with Sidious and had several lightsaber clashes, and this only happened because of Windu's use of Vaapad which only works against Dark Siders.

Hmmm... well and here I thought you actually read novels. Well, Vaapad does not work better against Dark Siders. That's a common misconception. It channels the darkness that is inside MACE WINDU and turns it into a weapon. Not inside of his enemies. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light." Mace Windu

So yeah, Mace fought the Emperor with the same effectiveness he can fight with Yoda. Sorry.

Yoda isn't a Dark Sider, so Windu's not going to do anything to Yoda.

Yup, it will ;) And Yoda still aint beating these battle droids and gundark feats.

However, it is also possible to determine that Mace Windu is superior, based on their similar encounters with Palpatine. When struck by a sudden lighting strike from close range - performed by the same person, Palpatine - both Yoda and Mace Windu are seen taking a defensive stance, but while Mace Windu can rather casually hold his ground, stepping back and defending against surely an immense amount of physical pressure on pushing his blade - Yoda gets pushed back and disarmed on instant, incapable of physically performing the same feat.

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I believe there is no reason to think the verdict here would be difference. Mace Windu can support his physical body with the force to a greater extend then master Yoda, and this also will prove to be an advantage.

This comparism doesn't work because Yoda was unarmed and didn't even have a lightsaber to block Sidious's Lightning, whereas Windu did. I don't need to make a long paragraph to respond to your long paragraph. I'm getting the feeling that this is going to happen again...

I dont think you've seen the gif xD Please if they don't load, just open them in another brower window to know what I'm talking about. Yoda had the lightsaber. And my argument is valid.

I believe there is no reason to think the verdict here would be difference. Mace Windu can support his physical body with the force to a greater extend then master Yoda, and this also will prove to be an advantage.

No he can't. Yoda is factually more powerful than Mace:

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a great warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

Source: Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."

Source: web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."

Source: https://youtu.be/5m2yIAxeBHA?t=329

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."

Source: https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=908

That's just for lightsaber combat. He's got numerous more quotes for being more powerful than Mace in the Force:

Despite his diminutive size and frailty, Yoda’s incomparable ability to summon the power of the Force enabled him to greatly enhance his agility and speed.

Source: Star Wars Fact Files

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Yoda was the oldest and most powerful Jedi in the order.

Source: Sith Wars

Meet Yoda. He is the most powerful Jedi.

Source: Blast Off!

Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi.

Source: The Legendary Yoda

That was why Mace was on the Jedi Council. That was why, except for Yoda, Obi-Wan thought him the most powerful Jedi he'd ever known.

Source: Jedi Quest: The False Peace

Credit goes to ShootingNova for the quotes:

And none of the quotes prove Yoda is physically superior to Windu. All the quotes only speak about Yoda's generally superior position as a jedi in the lore, which I already explained in the begging, that doesn't necessarily mean Yoda would win in a fight specifically aginst Windu. He is a more powerful jedi, but Mace is a better warrior, and that's why he will win a fight between the two. Also we are talking about physical strength here, so why do you return to that argument? Just admit Windu is physically stronger dude. I can see you really have no arguments in this matter, you are running in circles or pointing the argument completely elsewhere. Windu has tremendous strength feats. Yoda barely has any, and the ones you pointed out are indirect.

Reflexes and speed:

When in combat, we've seen both Mace Windu and master Yoda fodderizing even rapid blaster fire from many directions with their speed and reflexes, especially in the clone wars cartoon. So how do we determine who has a superior reflexes and speed? Again - talking about force amped speed only. Both were seen also utilizing their force speed to a degreee that allowed them to blitz enemies on the battlefield. Sadle, when it comes to their top tier feats, like fighting powerful Sith Lords and other "boss" characters, there's little to compare when it comes to reflexes. I did manage to find one good example to prove that Mace Windu is somewhat superior though. When you look at the GIF above, you'll see Mace Windu block a sudden burst of force lightning coming from Sidious. Surely, it required not just strength to withstand the blast behind the guard, but also reflexes to actually block it, when you're suddenly blasted right in your face from close range, and with electricity at that - that moves almost instantaneously even compared to a blaster. Not to mention, it was the first time Mace Windu saw Sidious using force lightning, so he couldn't really expect it. Yoda approached the same kind of blast as well, but with much worse effects. The first time around, when he also wasn't expecting it, Sidious blasted him across the room (and from much bigger distance too!), completely bypassing his reflexes, although master Yoda surely was expecting to be attacked by him. So although their difference here is probably not very big, I still think that unless proven otherwise - Mace Windu is slightly superior in his reflexes and speed, and that's obviously an advantage in a fight.

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This concludes my physical comparison between the two. I do believe Mace Windu is, objectively speaking, physically a superior to master Yoda - force amped or not - in every possible way. Now, to move to another aspect of Mace Windu's advantages over master Yoda.

Yoda only got blasted by Palpatine's Lightning to greater effect because he wasn't given a chance to defend himself.

Dude, Yoda literally entered Palpatines office, knowing he is about to fight him. He didn't have a chance to defend himself? What the hell are you talking about? HE invaded Palpatine. He should be on top of his fingers, ready to be attacked by the most powerful Sith Lord in existance at any moment!

Windu had a lightsaber that he used to block Palpatine's Lightning. Yoda did not have a lightsaber,

So Yoda can't block a lightning without a lightsaber? Of course he can. He could also simply grab his lightsaber and block the lightning if he was fast enough. Again, Palpatine blasted him from MUCH BIGGER distance then against Windu. Windu was literally blasted right in the face. And still he had time to cover himself with the lightsaber. And he wasn't already in blocking position - he was just fast enough to block it. Yoda wasn't, although he was struck at much bigger distance and Palpatine even basically warned him about the attack - he said "now you will experience full power of the dark side" - then he slowly lifted his fingers, pointed them at Yoda, and then he fired. That's... yeah plenty of time for Yoda to react. Especially compared to Windu who had Palpatine right in front of him. Dude this argument is valid. It really hurts me that you are unable to admit a valid argument on my side, but you'd rather just jump to completely silly reasoning to find any word against mine. The truth is, Windu has superior reflexes to Yoda, and this is a valid proof.

he wasn't even in a fighting pose, Windu already his blade pointed at Palpatine.

Yeah, and he had to change it to blocking position. Similarly, Yoda had to change his non-fighting pose to fighting pose, grabbing lightsaber or blocking with Tutaminis. - but he didn't make it in time, and Mace could. Point taken.

(2.2 Dueling and fighting skills)

Most jedi/sith battles in Star Wars - unless a very dramatic difference in power is present - go down to lightsaber duels. This is why fighting skills are a very crucial element of this matchup. Many people would base their opinion about the verdict of this versus on the fact that Master Yoda is - without a doubt - a superior force user. I disagree. While Master Yoda has a deeper understanding and connection to the force then Mace Windu, his fights against high level opponents ALWAYS went down to lightsaber combat. This is why this part of the debate is very crucial. Because whoever wins this, most likely wins the matchup as well.

This is an all out fight, not just a duelling only. Yoda is more skilled than Mace in terms of lightsaber combat as being confirmed as a level 9 whereas Mace is only a level 8 that is border line level 9 fighter:

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."

Source: https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=908

If you pay attention to the quote, Gillard is talking about duelling, not the Force. And you've admitted that Yoda is more powerful, so comparing them as Force users would be pointless.

Dude you are quoting a stunt coordinator. Listen to the whole quote. He actually says Anakin by this logic is on the level of Yoda. And you agree with that? Yoda and Anakin are both at level 9 of lightsaber combat? That's just ridiculous. He is talking about him setting rules to coordinate the stuns of actors. So he is basically just saying, how complicated he is going to make their sword fighting on screen. He is not talking about a power level or anything like that, that's just a misconception of the quote. And... This is also just a stunt coordinator, he is as far from a source that we should use to compare characters as it can get. Lucas confirmed both Yoda and Mace are in the same league. He made Windu win against the Emperor in a sword duel, and he made Obi Wan win against Anakin. Yoda said directly to Obi Wan - strong enough to fight this Lord Sidous you are not. This puts this logic completely upside down. Obi Wan is level 8 and Anakin levle 9, but Obi Wan wins? And Yoda is in the same league as Anakin, but somehow Obi Wan, his superior is said to be not qualified to fight Sidious WTF I mean you have to see it dude, this scaling that this stuntman presented is basically his technical point of view, not a power scale. This argument is completely undependable.

Both master Yoda and Master Windu have mastered all VI forms of lightsaber combat, so there's really little to compare here. However, Mace Windu also mastered his own, signature style called Vaapad - form VII. It is described as very agressive and unpredictable style, that also allowes Mace Windu to create his ultimate weapon - it's turning his inborn darkess into his own light side power.

"I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light."―Mace Windu

Using a highly unpredictable and aggressive style against master Yoda, who will get tired quicker, does not know this style himself and is also vulnerable to it because of his naturally defensive posture (short stature forced)... might be just the little detail Mace Windu needs to win in a duel with Yoda. Again, it's probably not a big advantage, but it still is an advantage when it comes to mastery of the lightsaber forms, and when comparing two high tier masters - a details usually matter the most.

That's cool... I guess.

But here's a hole in your argument: Yoda does know what Vaapad is:

"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen." - Shatterpoint.

He describes it as a powerful Form, the deadlist of all, but dangerous... Do you still think Yoda doesn't know what it is?

I said he can't perform it. He said in your own quote, that only one student - Mace Windu - has mastered it. So Yoda does not know it in the meaning that he can't perform it. That's the advantage for Windu I meant. They both know all the styles, but Mace has one style Yoda doesn't have, which is an advantage. That's all there is to it.

Dueling feats:

There are many very impressive feats in Mace's corner here. Surprisingly - much more by sheer numbers then in Yoda's corner too. He easily won duels against incredibly powerful opponents, capable of fodderizing other jedi masters at many occasions. This alone is a testament to his strength and experience in this category.

That's impressive, but it's been stated that Yoda’s lightsaber skills made him a match for anyone in combat:

"Although it was extremely rare for Yoda to use a lightsabre in combat, when there was no alternative, he was a match for anyone." - Star Wars Fact Files

Cool. I never said Yoda is not in Mace's league in dueling. I think it's true. I think they are very close, but Windu is better, and feats will prove my words.

His "ez" victory against Jango Fett. Best bounty hunter in the galaxy, known for killing jedi masters with his bare hands in the past...

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Jango has only used his bare hands to kill Padawans, not masters. Mace had trouble defeating Jango.

Check again. He actually has a feat of defeating a jedi master on a field in comics.

Him one-shotting Grievous in his prime (TCW Grievous has feats like fighting 6 jedi at the same time and winning, 3 council masters included)

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That's a Force feat, not a duelling feat.

True. But I'm talking about dueling feats in general here, with or without using the force in it. I talked about lightsaber combat above. Here I present all-out abilties.

fending off mother Talzin, known to be equal or even a superior in power to Darth Sidious

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Windu's fight against Talzin was inconclusive and nothing suggests Talzin is equal or superior to Sidious in duelling. While an argument could be made that she is Sidious's near equal, that's irrelevant. Talzin easily got beaten by Sidious in a duelling only contest while using Dooku's body, as Sidious notes that she possesses none of Dooku's skills.

Again true, but Talzin also used her force powers in that fight and Mace didn't have any problems to counter or dodge her attacks. Which is an incredible dueling feat, since mother Talzin has her own feats like fodderizing Dooku with her power completely one-shotting him and taking over his body - or blocking comined power of Dooku and Sidious with her own power. Since you quote Son of Dathomir here, I think you know this very well.

Making Count Dooku run for his life, using droids for distraction.

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He didn't make Dooku run for his life. Dooku wasn't in the mood to fight Windu because he was concerned about Grievous, so he prioritized that over fighting Mace.

Ok please dude, use some basic logic. You are telling me Dooku didn't have time to kill a grand general of republican army? That he had something better to do then THAT? That's a silly excuse. Dooku escaped a solo fight against Windu. Although he even had his droids to help him. There's only one reason why. And he said why. He said "You won't kill me, not today". He escaped because he didn't want to die. Plain and simple. Stop seaking for a counterargument in a simple feats.

And many others.

Which doesn't make him better than Yoda.

More dueling feats is just more dueling feats. There's nothing more to it, he just has more feats in his corner.

Yoda is factually more skilled than Mace as confirmed by Nick Gillard.

I already proved word of this stuntman means absolutely nothing and is completely falling apart when you try to compare it to what actually happens in star wars.

However, feat I'd like to focus on is the one which we can use to actually compare these two. And that is Mace's/Yoda's duels with Sidious. We've seen them both fight the most powerful and skilled Sith Lord in the history of Star Wars Universe - Darth Sidious in his prime.

Sidious was absolutely not in his Prime, he reached his Prime in DE:

"His Force skills have increased significantly in the six years since he was last seen in Return of the Jedi." - Dark Empire Sourcebook.

And ROTJ Sidious has also been confirmed to be stronger than ROTS by multiple Sources IIRC, but I can't find them.

... Umm right. So a Sidious that blitzed 3 jedi masters in less then 10 seconds is LESS powerful then Sidious who was basically lift up from the ground and thrown down the shaft like a junk bag by a handicapped Vader with an arm cut off, electrocuted breathing device and exhausted after fight with Luke... Sorry, I can't agree with that. More powerful in the force MAYBE. But in dueling skills and physical prime? Not even close. Also that's not the point. Let's just say they fought Sidious as he was in the same time period. That's enough to make the point I wanted to make.

And both were clearly holding their ground. However, Mace Windu emerged victorious from the lightsaber duel part of his fight against Sidious - while we have no idea how the same fight went down in Yoda's case, because the fight cuts in the middle of their lightsaber combat and then skips right into their force combat.

Question: Why have you arrived to the conclusion that Windu emerged victorious in his lightsaber duel with Darth Sidious? All he did was disarm him,

Yeah, that's called a win in a lightsaber combat. You get disarmed in a fight and pinned against the wall - you lose. :P

and that only happened because Sidious allowed Windu to do that.

Ohhh boy. Are we in for the debate. You are one of those people who believe Sidious LET Windu deform his face and hold a lightsaber an inch for his throat... just to get an apprentice? That's.. gonna be rough, but I am going to prove you wrong.

Sidious clearly threw the fight because Anakin literally arrives at the exact same scene mere seconds later.

So you believe Sidious would lay HIS LIFE in the hands of Anakin, who is not even yet fully converted to dark side? Who do you think Sidious is, mother teresa?

Are you under the impression Windu defeated Sidious because George Lucas supposedly said so from the ROTS Commentary?

There are many sources that say directly that Windu defeated Sidious, and that it was Lucas's intention. Commentary is just one of them.

I'm afraid you're wrong because here's how George Lucas talked about the scene by saying this:

George Lucas: Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later.

Source - Revenge of the Sith Commentary.

If you paid attention to the context of the Commentary when he states that Mace overpowered the Emperor, Lucas was described that scene as how an audience member perceives the scene - how it looks from an audience interpretation. It wasn't a confirmation of whether Mace actually won.

You have no proof, it's your speculation. Lucas says "sequence starts with Mace overpowering Palpatine". Lucas is just telling about the scene as it goes on. If what actually happened was "Sidious let Mace overpower him" why doesn't George say it that way? This is a very shallow, and definitely under argumented conclusion.

And even if it was, it doesn't contradict the idea that Sidious allowed Mace to win.

Yes it does. If Mace overpowered Sidious, like Lucas, says, then he overpowered him. So... he won. What's really that hard to understand here? Why build up second imaginary meaning to the scene? Prequels were not exactly known for being very deep in their screenplay. What you see is what you get. Building a secret theory here that is really silly.

So in the context of the quote Windu supporters keep using, Lucas was describing the scene on what appears to be happening, not on whether Mace actually won.

He never says he is describing what appears to be happening. He was describing a scene, to later explain what did he add to it. Again, it's your speculation without any affixing and justification. I can just as well build my theory around anything else like that, I can say Dooku let Yoda win because he was his own master and he let him win. Obviously it's not true, but it has just as many proof as your argument on Windu/Palpatine fight.

An argument can be made, that Yoda most likely won the trade there, and that Palpatine withdrawn to gain more distance to utilize his force abilities. However, this is still a speculation, and not a feat.

I'm not going to say that Yoda won, but we do know for a fact that Yoda matched Darth Sidious in terms of lightsaber skill, meaning that they fought as equals until Yoda eventually lost:

"Sidious battles with passion and fury, only to be matched every blow by Yoda's calm, measured skill." - Star Wars: Beware of the Sith

While for Windu, there are no Sources that remotely support the idea that he actually matched Sidious, and when I say match Sidious - I mean fighting as an equal to a Sidious that is absolutely fighting at full capacity with no plans of throwing the fight.

No sources that support that? Okay you just brought up one of them. And there's much more, you'll see.

An argument can be also made (and was made many, many times in this forum) that Mace's lightsaber feat against Sidious also had another side to it, and that Sidious let Mace Windu take the upper hand to some unknown extent, knowing that Anakin would come to save him and that it would help in turning him into Vader. However, that's also a speculation, not a fact.

It's speculation that is supported and/or suggested by the Revenge of the Sith Novelisation and Pablo Hidalgo.

And George Lucas says otherwise... Oh boy, here we go again, what is actually more valid, what novelist say, or what lucas say? I hope you already know the asnwer.

But I will not through that because not only writing it would be time consuming, not only is it not the topic we're discussing, but there's a much quicker and easier way of doing it by citing Ian McDiarmid confirmation:

Question: Ian my wife is your biggest fan in the Universe and for years we've had an argument about whether or not you threw the fight with Mace Windu or did he beat you?

Ian McDiarmid: I mean uh... Of course he didn't beat me (laughs). Yeah, Sam Jackson beat me? Yeah to a pulp really!

Source - Ian McDiarmid Tales from the Dark Side Panel - Star Wars Celebration 2017 Orlando.

Although Ian was laughing while he responded to that question, that doesn't automatically mean he was joking. The Sidious vs Windu fight is a very controversial debate that's been raging on for more than a freaking decade, if any Star Wars authority was asked that question, they would likely be quite nervous and kind of laugh because they know it's controversial.

Well for one he COULD be joking... and secondly, when there are direct quotes form Lucas confirming Windu can compete with him, then I don't think it matters when Ian says it's funny to think Jackson can beat him. It's really irrelevant. Bringing up a joke intended quote from an actor against a word of the writer is meaningless.

The argument from the other side can be made here as well - that Sidious could not know for sure if Anakin would turn (or just if he was fast enough) to save him from Mace Windu's execution.

Considering the fact that he literally got disarmed seconds before Anakin arrived, I'd say it's pretty obvious that he knew Anakin was going to turn up.

And he would bet a life on it? That's just ridiculous. Windu WAS going to kill him. How did he know Anakin will make the decision in time? There's no proof. To the contrary, even speculating that seems funny. Emperor had his whole plan put together perfectly. And suddenly, he throws everything on the edge of the knife just to get another apprentice? Later on he seeks to replace Vader anyway. So what's with all the theory that he just throws everything, including his entire plan and life just to turn Anakin over. It makes NO SENS. It severs only the purpose to take away Mace's best feat. And that's just sad, that you bring it up.

And in that case, he surely wouldn't risk his career, plans and put even his life on tip of Mace's Windu's sword just to gain an apprentice... whom he'd later want to replace anyway. So the argument goes both ways, and I don't think it's the place to argue about that.

Sidious wasn't at any risk at all.

Yeah, having a lightsaber at your throat is no risk at all. get out dude.

Sith don't gamble on their well being for something like that.

My point exactly.

And Sidious did not plan on replacing Anakin because Anakin had a very high Force potential that would be very useful for the Dark Side.

He was looking forward to replacing Vader with Luke.

George Lucas also confirmed, that Mace Windu is capable of dueling Sidious on even ground. "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," - George Lucas.

Windu can only compete with Sidious in the context that Windu is amped

Amped... by what? The hell are you talking about. Lucas doesn't bring up amp in any way in that quote. He says HE CAN COMPETE WITH HIM. Which means, saying he just fodderized him and lost on purpose makes no sens. Better handle the truth, because that's the only way this whole thing makes any sens.

which is heavily implied in the Revenge of the Sith Novel

ohhhh... again a novelist knows better then freakin Lucas. Give me a break already.

due to the sudden realisation that the Republic (which Windu loves) has fallen under control over the Sith who also happened to be controlling the Clone Wars (which killed off a lot of Windu's Jedi companions):

that's an amp...? You mean EMOTIONAL amp? Wouldn't that weaken a jedi? Especially a jedi like Windu who needs to control his emotion perfectly in order for Vaapad to work? Makes no sens.

"Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.

Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."

For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.

He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.

And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.

Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.

He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.

They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—

That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—

All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—

Has all been for nothing.

Because it was all done to save the Republic.

Which was already gone.

Which had already fallen.

The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.

Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire,weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways.He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source." - Revenge of the Sith Novel.

And what makes this even more compelling is that Lucas has actually reviewed the ROTS Novel and edited it. In fact,he literally went over it word by word and trimmed a lot of EU references. Here's a direct confirmation from the Author of the Novel:

Question: What were Mr. Lucas's line-edits like? Was he a tough editor?

Matthew Stover: Not tough so much as exceedingly detailed, though I suspect he would have been very tough indeed if I hadn't been quite so scrupulously faithful to the spirit of his story. I mean, he literally went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections. As I mentioned earlier, he trimmed a number of the EU references -- especially ones that harkened back to some of the older material that I'm guessing he'd rather not re-avow as part of Official Continuity, if you see what I mean. There was only one cut -- actually a series of cuts, of a continuing metaphor of which I had been particularly proud -- that surprised me (and, in fact, upset me; I don't mind telling you that this was the first time in my career that I've thrown an actual Full-Blown Diva Hissy-Fit, in a conference call with LucasBooks, howling that they go back and tell Mr. Lucas that "He just can't do this to My Book!"). The funny thing was that after I had calmed down -- and survived the migraine I'd given myself -- I realized that not only was Mr. Lucas right and I was wrong (in the sense that making this series of cuts tightened the book and cleaned up the thematic arc), but that doing it his way also brought into much clearer focus a powerful moral point... and I found I had been arguing against something I actually really agreed with. Oh, it was embarrassing!

Source - Matthew Stover interviewed

So yes, Stover's depiction on Windu's fight with Sidious is approved by Lucas himself, so yes I can definitely conlude that Mace Windu can only compete with Darth Sidious in the circumstances of being amped by his love for the Republic.

No, it does not. Lucas checked the Novel read it first and agreed for it's release, obviosuly, he approves on almost everything that brings new content to the lore. that doesn't change the fact that he said Mace Windu is capable of taking on Sidious, and he did not say it while talking about amp - hell, he said it BEFORE Novel was ever written.

And remember this: Windu was amped by his love for the Rebulic after Kolar, Tiin and Fisto were killed by Sidious, which leads me to my next point: When Sidious killed all 3 of those Jedi in Windu's presence, Windu didn't realise they were killed when it happened:

"Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade." - The Complete Visual Dictionary.

At this point, it's quite obvious that Windu can only compete with Sidious under specific circumstances, unlike Yoda - who is on the same level as Sidious.

There is no specific about this circumstances. Windu fought for republic that he loves - alright. So what, he won a fight becuase... he got emotional? For the last time - Jedi are WEAKER if they lose control over their emotions. The fact how much Windu was sad or angry during fight with Sidious means NOTHING because jedi fighting style is completely separete from emotions and you know it. Amp is nonexistent, and even the Novelist doesn't say anything about it. He just makes the whole thing dramatic. He never says that it's suddenly a source of power for Windu. Becasue it doesn't happen. Deal with it.

The fact is - Mace Windu has defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel on screen, and it's an actual feat, even stated in his wiki page to be authentic and his most impressive one.

Windu's wiki page is Non Canon.

Lol. I suppose you know better.

Yoda did not.

Yoda lost after a very hard fought battle, whereas Mace never defeated Sidious at all.

Sigh.... yes he did. I don't care what do you think the motivations, emotions or even circumstances of the lose of Sidious were. The fact is, he LOST. There are circumstances to EVERY fight. But it happened, and it's a feat that puts Mace above Yoda in dueling feats.

And it is a dueling feat advantage in Mace Windu's corner. Summarizing, Mace Windu is a superior to Yoda in dueling feats - both in their numbers and -even if slightly- in their quality, comparing their top feats.

No he isn't. Windu never defeated Sidious,

yes he did. it happened, watch a movie again.

Windu never managed to compete with Sidious without any amplification,

yes he did. emotions are nonfactors in jedi fights, if anything, they make them weaker.

Windu was never stated to actually match Sidious,

yes he was, Lucas confirmed that.

Windu has failed to stomp combatants that Sidious has such as Darth Maul.

You're talking about Son of Dathomir? Windu literally has one screenshot of him clashing sword with Maul, and then the fight immediately breaks. So we can hardly talk about a fight there. Obviously Windu would stomp Maul effortlessly.

Point taken! :)

That concludes my analysis about their fighting skills and dueling abilities. When comparing the two we can clearly see they are in the same league, as they are both capable of similar high tier feats. However, slight differences show, that Mace Windu has a final edge in this category as well. His knowledge on exclusive forms of combat, his numerous dueling feats and his final confrontation against the ulatimate villain all prove that he is one step ahead of Yoda when it comes to fighting.

We'll have to disagree on this.

Last thing I will mention here is:

(2.3 Force abilities)_

There is no doubt, that overall prowess of Yoda is above Windu's. Yoda's connection with the force is deeper then anyone within the order. However Mace's understanding of the force should not be fodderized as well. I will try to prove here, that although Yoda is a superior force user, Mace Windu - because of his unique and specific power set and approach to using the force in combat - is capable of holding his own against master Yoda, even find an edge here and there.

No, Windu would get destroyed by Yoda in terms of Force abilities.

We'll see.

Application of the force in single combat:

Master Windu is seen utilizing the force in single combat on almost every occasion possible. Sometimes he even uses the force to stop the duel before it begins (his fight vs Grievous) Master Yoda on the other hand utilizes his force abilities to great magnitudes when on a battlefield - we've seen him destroy entire space crafts and battalions of droids with just his force abilities in TCW cartoon. I doubt Mace Windu is capable of repeating his feats (he also has impressive battle feats in TCW... just not that impressive I guess), at least not on such scale and with such ease. But when facing a single, powerful opponent, it's clear that Master Windu has a more direct approach then Master Yoda - who uses his force abilities mainly for his defenses or to counterattack. He takes little to no actual offensive approaches with the force in his duels. The difference in the approach between the two leads to a conclusion that Mace Windu would use his powers more often and more effectively compared to Yoda, simply because he is used to doing it in the middle of battle, and it's more in character for him. Below examples of Mace Windu winning his fights, by force-stomping his opponents.

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Great, Windu has successfully used the Force to stomp Quinlan Vos and Sora Bulq... Who are absolute fodder in comparism to Yoda. And Yoda has definitely offensively used the Force:

Yoda slams 2 Royal Guards in the wall with enough force to knock them out:

You call that a dueling feat?

Source - Revenge of the Sith.

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Yoda unleashes a Force push that sends Sidious flying across the room:

Source - Revenge of the Sith.

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So yeah, Yoda does use the Force offensively, Windu isn't the only guy who does it - and Yoda will definitely dominate Windu through the use of the Force.

That's why I said he RARELY uses it, because I know of this scene. But the two times he used the force against Palpatine in their duel are also the only two times he ever uses the force in all of his duels I know about. And both were actually a counterattacks to Palpatine attacking him with the force first. So... yeah that is pretty rarely.I think you are missing my point here.

Most likely Yoda would be capable of defending against anything Windu is capable of throwing at him - so maybe it's exactly an "edge". But I think it is important to note this, because it is an important character trait, and it makes the difference in the way they will use their abilities in a battle.

Yoda isn't just going to use the Force defensively, he's also going to dodge them by moving out of the way, and I've already proven that Yoda uses the Force offensively, so your logic is wrong.

Well, actually you only proved Yoda used the force offensively ONCE in a duel, and it's the only time he does it. You hardly disprove me here, because all I wanted to prove is that Mace does it much more often and it's more in character for him. Also even the one time Yoda did use force offensively against Palpatine was NOT strictly while they were fighting. It was before they started to fight, during their initial conversation. They exchanged a blow from force abilties each, and then started to fight. And Yoda did not use force offensively during their entire fight. He once COUNTERattacked with a chair that Palpatine threw at him. So yeah, it does prove my point, you proved nothing. Yoda barely uses the force in duels, and when he does, it's usually defensively, to the contrary with Mace.

Unique powers that can give a character the edge:

Finally, Yoda and Mace both have different signature or as some call them favorite force powers. Their more well known powers like telepathy, telekinesis, force push are on a similar, very high level, and I really believe Mace Windu - although he is not as impressive as Master Yoda and definitely doesn't have an advantage here - can still hold his ground in this area.

No, he won't...

Well see.

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Example of Master Windu's powerful force push that shatters entire squad of droids to pieces - even destroyers. Feat easily comparable to Yoda's achievements with force push.

No it isn't. Here are exampls of Yoda's Force feats that vastly outlcass Windu's:

I gave an example of force push, not telekinesis... I hope you are going to also give me force push feat.

Master Yoda uses telekinesis to cause an avalanche that wipes out several Chameleon Droids:

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Master Yoda telekinetically lifts dozens of Destroyer Droids and holds them in the path of Separatist starfighters:

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Master Yoda uses telekinesis to lift massive pieces of the Ilum Jedi Temple:

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Master Yoda telekinetically forces droid transports back into their landing craft and the pushes it back:

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While telekinetically pushing a Separatist landing craft, Yoda uses the Force to grab another one and slam it into the former craft, destroying both of them:

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Credit goes to Aurbere for the GIFs and descriptions.

Yup there we go again with you bro. Not a single force push. You redirect a conversation into a place that suits you. I'm not talking about telekinesis here, I'm talking about force push specifically. I already said I agree Yoda is better in telekinesis.

However the main focus here I'd like to go to the powers unique to the characters like Yoda and Mace Windu. This is where I see Mace Windu getting an edge in this category.

Mace Windu is known for his unique ability called Shatterpoint, which is a force power that allows him to use the force with absurd precision and find a weak spot in anyone and anything when it occurs. Because of this ability he can use his other force powers to his fullest potential, always in the way they need to be used to achieve desired effects. Mace Windu's concentration on the force in the middle of the battle is also legendary. I think this and his ability to use Shatterpoint makes him incredibly dangerous force user and in a completely different way then Yoda. While Yoda is a great Telepath and can defend himself against energy attacks such as force lightning with Tutaminis, these powers are more or less uselss against Mace Windu and do not really counter him in any way. But Shatterpoint and Maces battle concentration will definitely help Mace Windu in his fight against Yoda.

Windu's Shatterpoint is definitely an impressive Force ability, but he has never demonstrated any Shatterpoint feats that are impressive enough for it to be a significant factor against Yoda.

If he used Shatterpoint against Sidious effectively in a duel, then there is absolutely nothing that states he can't use it effectively against Yoda.

And considering how Mace is hopelessly outclassed by Yoda in TK, Yoda's vastly superior TK would definitely be a factor.

Like they were against Dooku? Seriously, I already proved Yoda almost use force offensively in duels. So "definitely would be a factor" well you would have to prove it. So far Yoda only used telekinesis in duels to defend against other opponents who tried to throw rocks, chairs and other things at him. So your argument is invalid, it has no basis.

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Mace Windu using Shatterpoint is able to burst a droid to original pieces and use them as bullets.

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Mace Windu's concentration on the force is so high, he can completely ignore an army of droids shooting at him as he thinks of a plan.

Army of Super battle Droids are not comparable to Yoda;

I never said that they are.

you can't make the assumption that Windu's use of Shatterpoint against those Droids does not mean he actually has an edge against Yoda in the Force.

No, but he can also use it against Sidious, as stated in your favorite Novel, he did use it to disarm Sidious and win the duel. So he can also use it against Yoda. This was just an example.

In conclusion, I really believe that although Yoda is a more powerful force user, Mace Windu can still hold his own in this category, reason being:

1. Most impressive Yoda's feats are accomplished outside of direct combat - for example on a large battlefield - and with extended concentration time available to him. When it comes to personal combat and duels their force feats are far more equal.

No they aren't. Some of Yoda's TK feats in OCW are accomplished during direct combat without any extended concentration time.

In a duel? Which one? Oh, that's right, NONE of them :D

2. Mace Windu has the advantage because of his battle concentration and shatterpoint, that may help him close the gap in power between him and Yoda, defending better against his force assaults, as he can sens and see them coming even before they happen.

What the hell is "battle concentration"? Have you confused it with battle meditation or did you make it up? Battle meditation and Shatterpoint isn't going to work against a powerhouse like Yoda.

Battle concentration is not a term used in any wiki or a novel, I use it present the way Windu stays constantly concentrated no matter what happens. He is never distracted, he is always in control. If you really read the Novels you talk so much about here, try Shatterpoint and you'll get the idea. Also just because Yoda is a powerhouse, doesn't mean that Windu's traits won't help him. To the contrary, I'm using the characters specific strong sides to show you that he surprasses Yoda force-wise in some areas because he has more feats.

3. Mace Windu can even get an edge in this category, if he uses Shatterpoint when Yoda is already tired with battle. Worn off Yoda will eventually make an opening, and Mace Windu will immediately exploit it.

Shatterpoint's not going to work because Yoda is not going to get tired.

I already proved you wrong.

Well, that's it for now ;) In conclusion:

- Mace Windu has many minor and major advantages when it comes to his physical feats and capabilities.

- Mace Windu has a decent advantage when it comes to fighting skills and dueling feats.

- Mace Windu is not as powerful in the force as Master Yoda, but he can hold his ground against him when it comes to using force in duels as their feats are more comparable there; and he can even use his signature Shatterpoint ability that Yoda doesn't have to gain an upper hand at some point.

Because of these reasons, Mace Windu takes the win in my opinion. Peace!

Here's my conclusion:

  • Yoda is factually more skilled as repeatedly confirmed by several Star Wars Sources.
  • Yoda is factually more powerful as repeatedly confirmed by several Star Wars Sources.
  • Yoda has vastly superior Force feats.
  • Yoda has been confirmed as matching Sidious in lightsaber combat; Mace has not.
  • Yoda did not need to be amped to compete with Sidious.
  • Yoda's old age has never had been a significant disadvantage by giving him any stamina problems

I proved all of that to be wrong in my response.

Summary: Yoda stomps hard, kind of like this:

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Or perhaps worse :)

Well, I really was looking up to your response, and you did a great job, definitely put a lot of effort into it. Thanks for your effort, and the hard work! Sadly, Windu still will wins this matchup! Hard fight to be sure. But he IS a superior duelist, based on his feats and advantages in fighting style. He is physically superior and has better stamina, again, going by feats and logic. He even has force powers that Yoda doesn't have like shatterpoint and crush to gain an upper hand in force duel. Contrary to Yoda, who barely uses his force abilites for offence at all! So he CAN win and he WILL win! This party is OVER, man! :D

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ViperSixteen

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@thoromdil: I'll need a few days to respond to your entire post.

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ComicGirl21

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t4v! Love the argument so far :) Thoromdil's post gave me a new perspective on Mace... he has a LOT more feats then I actually thought. :O

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@thoromdil:

hey I think you'll find this video interesting, it's a pretty popular (250+k views )versus video on Yoda and Windu. You and Reti4 share a lot of points there, the winner in the versus is also Windu. Very interesting video he brings a lot of powerful feats on Windu! :D And I love your debate too!

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Thoromdil

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@turr: nice video. Thanks :)