>>>>>>>>>> Deadpool and Wolverine (YNCG/Wolverine08) vs. Ult. Cap and Miles Morales (CadenceV2/laflux) <<<<<<<<<<
Rules
- Morals on and in character.
- Start 30 feet apart.
- Standard equipment.
- Standard elimination rules.
Setting
CaV: YNCG/Wolverine08 vs. CadenceV2/laflux
@deathstroke19 said:
Crap... If I was mobile i would post the "dis gonna be good" gif.... Stupid ipad.
Here:
@dondave said:
Ult Cap looks fat
And I agree, haha.
@zijuun said:
@deathstroke19 said:
Crap... If I was mobile i would post the "dis gonna be good" gif.... Stupid ipad.
Here:
you guys suck, I was gonna post it
Let's get this started shall we? Now, who should Deadpool take on? Shall Wade fight Ultimate Steve Rogers, the Sentinel of Liberty, or should he test his chances against the new 1610 Spider-Man, Miles Morales?
Sounds good to me. I'll try and keep my opener short.
Team Chemistry
Chemistry is "growth, then decay, then transformation". Sorry, had to put a Breaking Bad reference here. *cough* Moving on. Sure, Ultimate Cap and Miles Morales have worked together extensively before, and seem to work along just fine, but it doesn't compare with the personal history and chemistry that Logan and Wade have. Not only are the two closer because of what they have gone through, but they've also worked as a team on multiple instances. On the surface it might seem as all Wade does is annoy Wolverine, and while that may be true, it doesn't stop there. Deadpool and Wolverine have run into each other as friends and foes more times than I can count and know each other pretty well to an extent where its applicable in combat. Remender's UNCANNY X-FORCE is an excellent example of where Deadpool not only cooperates extremely well with Wolverine, but also as a team with the likes of Psylocke, Fantomex, and Archangel. Captain America may be a great leader, but these two are on a familiar ground that not even Ultimate or 616 Cap's leadership can compare to.
Versus Miles Morales
Miles Morales, as far as I'm aware, isn't that skilled. Sure, Spider-Woman remarked that he was a natural fighter, but it pales in comparison to what Deadpool has done in his career, even with bad writing. Jessica isn't exactly a top-tier fighter either, especially considering SHIELD training is weak enough to enable Cape Killers to get wrecked by Punisher. I also should remind you Frank himself was almost killed by Deadpool three times in a single issue, one wherein Wade was beating him to death. But what about Miles' physical enhancements and advantages over Deadpool? What about his webbing? His Venom Sting? Well there's two things about that. One, is that Morales' morals will hinder his abilities greatly, whereas Deadpool flat-out kills, maims, and without WIS/PIS, doesn't hold back. Second, Miles is very inexperienced compared to the extensive history of Wolverine, Deadpool, or even Ultimate Captain America. He's blatantly ignored his Spider-Sense before on multiple occasions IIRC, which have led to negative consequences. Time and time again, skill has overcome great odds, whether mental or physical. Take Gorgon wrecking both Elektra and Wolverine for example. Tomi's skill and incredible speed enabled him to overcome near-impossible odds. Keep in mind Wade is also an enhanced human due to his healing factor, therefore increasing his strength, stamina, and more. Heck, Deadpool has taken on enemies where he is severely outmatched in terms of physical stats. The merc has held back Juggernaut, stalemated Kraven the Hunter (who has went toe-to-toe with Spider-Man), fought Killmonger, who has regularly defeated Black Panther in combat, to a standstill, and even managed to keep back Age of Apocalypse Blob and Age of Apocalypse Iceman. I seriously doubt Miles would be able to replicate some of the feats Deadpool has achieved. Morales has speed over Wade? Please. Deadpool has been able to hold his own against Ajax, who had enhanced strength and super-speed/agility, and outright killed a Whizzer clone created by Arnim Zola. Now, the clone does not have definitive or quantifiable feats, but it can be assumed than he was able to go at the same speeds as the original, if not greater. Nonetheless, he is going at incredibly high speeds, and yet Wade is able to effortlessly one-shot him, while taking down different opponents, dodging attacks from various angles, and goofing off.
The Venom Sting that Miles has works only when he gets close enough to physically touch his combatant in order for it to work, and I do not see that happening with Deadpool's enhanced stats and skill. At least not without consequences anyways. There's also to note that Deadpool's advanced healing factor would have the potential to negate the effects, and if not, allow him to heal quickly enough so that we don't lose.
Versus Ultimate Captain America
Looks like Bucky also got the short end of the bullet there too. Speaking of Bucky, where's his mentor, the one and only Captain America? Dimension Z? Nah. He's down on the floor defeated with bullet holes and claw slashes across his body. Ouch! But why you say? Deadpool has trouble with regular Captain America, so why would he be able to take 1610 Rogers, who is the definite superior to 616 Rogers? Well that is absolute hogwash I tell you! Sure, Cap has his super-soldier serum that gives him vast physical enhancements, but Deadpool's healing factor also ups his body to levels on par with said enhancements. Add in Wade's superior pain tolerance and healing factor and it practically renders any questionable bodily advantages irrelevant. I've also given examples of how Deadpool can go toe-to-toe with opponents with greater stats above anyways. If you want scans I'll give 'em. Moving on, 1610 Captain America is more brutal, yes, but that's still not something that would automatically put him above Deadpool, nor is it something that would automatically grant him victory over Wade. Nothing, I mean nothing Ultimate Cap has done impresses me when I use Wilson as a comparative base. Ultimate Cap is significantly more brutal? Still nothing compared to Deadpool's combat mentality. Ultimate Cap has taken on Ultimate Hulk and managed to take him down? Deadpool has held back 616 Hulk, who, although wasn't 100% at the time, is still significantly more powerful than his 1610 counterpart in DEADPOOL #4.
Gallery
From the looks of it, Wade actually managed to snatch a win by out-smarting Hulk. There was minor interference but it's nothing enough to refute this feat. Ultimate Cap is rocking 5-10 ton strength? As you can see above, in Scan 5-6, Wade tanks a hit from an enraged Hulk. Nerfed or not, that's still more impressive than anything Steve can dish out here. On top of that, Deadpool has endured punches from She-Hulk and giant-size Pym relatively unscathed in DEADPOOL #44, and was still able to fight Killmonger right after. In fact, he held his own against the Avengers roster at that time too. Again, if you want scans just ask and I'll post 'em. Cap has his all-mighty shield that has proven time and time again to slice through even tanks? That's great, but not even Ultimate Cap regularly throws his shield at speeds high enough to outright slice a person in half. He's more brutal sure, but not that gruesome. Sure, he's killed Kleiser by chopping him in half and decapitated some Nazi Mutants before, but Cap seemed to have a personal grudge against the mentioned examples. He hasn't attempted to simply kill many of his opponents in the manner that manner consistently, and even if he does, I doubt Deadpool would be hit by it. It's not like he doesn't have experience dealing with Cap's shield.
Wade certainly has what it takes to Capture the shield. Eh? Get it? Shield? Captain America? Capture? Eh...yeah alright I'll just continue. Unlike firearms, if Deadpool or Wolverine catch the shield, Captain America's offense and defense will be taken away, crippling his team severely. Now, I know you guys are going to pull up the fact that Ultimate Cap's strength and looser morals would effectively enable him to curb-stomp Deadpool without much problems, but that isn't the case. In DEADPOOL #25, yours truly faced off against a bloodlusted Captain America that was possessed by The Destroyer, a being that took the free will of the beings on an entire planet. Wade does have extra gear, but all it really is is extra armor and a helmet that is resistant against telepathy. The fact that Steve is bloodlusted and out for the kill also negates any enhancements. On top of that, Deadpool held his own against the Tiamat for an extended period of time in DEADPOOL #23, whereas in DEADPOOL #25, Captain America inside a giant mech was absolutely wrecked by Tiamat. Steve himself remarked that Deadpool was "insane enough to attack that thing one-on-one".
Gallery
Straight-up saving the planet right there. Another thing I want to address is that from what I have seen, Deadpool has superior raw skill over Captain America, 616 or Ultimate. The only times 1610 Cap has won over 1610 Logan were with prep and/or special circumstances. In fact, a fresh 616 Cap was dropped extremely easily by Wolverine despite the latter having a burned out healing factor. Let's look at Deadpool's track record against Wolverine shall we? Scans will be provided if asked.
- In WOLVERINE #88, Deadpool takes on Wolverine in one-to-one combat and manages to edge a victory over him. It is to note that Logan's healing factor is not 100% here.
- In WOLVERINE Annual '99, Wolverine gets the drop on Deadpool and gets the upper hand, but Deadpool quickly turns the tide and takes the advantage before the battle is interrupted.
- In WOLVERINE #154, Deadpool and Wolverine engage in brutal combat, with neither taking a significant lead until Wade swiftly takes out Logan with specially designed darts.
- In WOLVERINE #155, both Wade and Logan have an extremely brief melee encounter, but Wilson still appears to gain the upper hand.
- In DEADPOOL #27, Wade punches Kitty to provoke Logan. Suffering from hallucinations, Deadpool takes on a near-bloodlusted Bone Claw Wolverine and stalemates him. It isn't until Wade stops fighting that Logan gets the upper hand.
Now I don't want to brag, but that's a huge improvement from winning against 1610 Wolverine in only special circumstances and getting dropped by a weakened Wolverine. Still not convinced? Deadpool has stalemated 616 Captain America in a brutal close quarters encounter, fought Iron Fist to a standstill, absolutely humiliated Taskmaster while handcuffed, temporarily trumped Iron Fist, Cap, Falcon, and Hercules in three seconds, nearly ended Punisher's life numerous times, stomped Shatterstar, and faced off against Killmonger. Deadpool's also sporting a vastly more versatile inventory here. He's got his dual katanas and conventional firearms backed up with his bottomless satchel for back-up ammunition and other weapons he may need to use. If we want to take into account the extreme capabilities of the satchel, it displayed in DEADPOOL TEAM-UP #889 against Gorilla-Man, that it was capable of pulling out tanks and rocket launchers out of nowhere. Extra ammunition, firearms, and explosives should be no problem for Wade to obtain. Cap's shield also doesn't cover every inch of his body, and without comic book protection to prevent him from getting killed, Deadpool certainly has the accuracy to tag Steve. Yeah, he's not Deadshot or Bullseye by any means, but he has defeated the latter on more than one fight. Wade is perfectly capable of tagging Ult. Cap, whereas Deadpool's healing factor makes getting tagged not much of a problem. And that's if Wade gets tagged without the essence of PIS/WIS here.
Gallery
That obstacle course was intended for Deadpool inside a battle mech suit. The same one that amped Cap to incredible levels to enable him to face off against Tiamat. And yet, without the assistance of the suit, still breezes through the course with absolute ease. Heck, I'd like to see Miles do something like that. All of the feats I've shown you are Deadpool goofing off. I intended to use a serious Deadpool, but wagered that even a semi-serious Wade would be able to pull off a win. @wolverine08 hasn't even covered what Wolverine can do yet. The way I see it, Deadpool will start yapping and start a fight between him and Logan with Miles and Cap. However, they're also going to end the fight, and it's going to look a little something like this.
Your move.
Got my gif posted and this thread bookmarked in my folder. This should be a very good debate between some excellent debaters with an interesting match up. I wonder how you guys will pair off.
Bane's ready to get this show on the road!
TEAMWORK:
Teamwork, an often vastly underrated aspect of a battle that can shift an the advantage from one side to another in the blink of the eye. Bad chemistry can take away the numerous advantages a team holds. In short, teamwork will be a pretty big factor in this fight. Now, my boy @yourneighborhoodcomicgeek already expounded on this facet of our team’s advantage, but I will talk about this just a little more. Wolverine and Deadpool are in no way lacking in this department here. They have had extensive time working with each other with their lives at risk during Rick Remender’s Uncanny X-Force run. Wade was willing to accept being a soldier taking orders from Wolverine and the two have a great amount of trust between each other. Wade has even shown extreme fear for Wolverine’s life during the run. While Wade and James have some great teamwork going on, I’d argue that Ultimate Captain America and Miles are not doing so hot in that department in comparison to Team Insane Healing Factors. Miles and Steve’s relationship is a hard nosed as%hole to Miles who has just been trying to live up to his legacy as the next Spider-Man, and just be an awesome hero. Steve’s stubborn and capricious attitude will not be very helpful here considering that he is bringing a relative greenhorn against two of Marvel’s deadliest street levelers, and needs to help him adjust to confronting foes of such a high level of skill.. In short, Wolverine and Deadpool’s great synergy is going to be a nice factor in here helping them walk away with the victory.
Look at an example of that comaraderie!
VERSUS MILES MORALES:
Miles Morales, the Ultimate Universe’s new official Web Head. While Miles is indeed a fairly decent combatant brimming with potential, there a few critical factors that would let Wolverine take him for a very strong majority if push came to shove. The first of these is an important factor often forgotten in battles, experience. Wolverine absolutely blows Miles to kingdom come when they are compared in this category. Whereas Miles is a relative greenhorn in the world of combat, Wolverine thrives at home in the madness known as combat. He’s been doing for about 125 years as a soldier in the Canadian Army, a black ops member, a samurai, as a X-Men, and much more. Miles isn’t too hot in this category when compared to Wolverine. He’s extremely new to his game. He hasn’t fully mastered his unique power set, has often blatantly ignored his Spider Sense (Something Scarlet Spider has called the ultimate edge), has only web spammed once through his career despite how much easier it would make things and tried to do melee combat with his opponents (Things are going to end very, very badly in melee combat for Miles against either Wolverine or Deadpool) , and makes your typical newbie mistakes. Deadpool himself is new slouch to combat with his numerous years as a top tie mercenary. Wolverine’s experience also grants an edge in that he has dealt with people power sets similar to Miles (And far better proficiency at using said powers), and done himself proud. In his first encounter with Spider-Man in Spider-Man versus Wolverine #1, Wolverine had an incredible fight with Spider-Man. Throughout the fight, Wolverine managed to use his speed to move fast enough to make Spider-Man (A person with confirmed Mach Speed) think he could possibly be faster than him, and when Peter decided to stop holding back and completely unload his fists into Wolverine’ face, James just simply smiled off Peter’s attempt to drop him. The fight ultimately ended up inconclusively/stalemate. Wolverine has gone on to have a few more skirmishes with spider-Man, and worked with Spider-Man extensively in the first volume of New Avengers. Even looking at things recently, Wolverine had a little skirmish with Kaine (Spider-Man’s physically superior clone) who needed to assassinate him for the Assassins Guild in Scarlet Spider #17.. Now, Kaine’s friend Arcaley was able to warn the X-Men about their predicament, so the fight was staged, but it is still an impressive performance on Wolverine’s part. He managed to almost disembowel Kaine with his combat speed, and when Kaine tried to punch Wolverine out for the win, the stupidly strong 30-35 toner nearly broke his right hand in his attempt. Point is, Wolverine has a pretty good history of dealing with Spiders, and will understand how to approach this situation from the start when Miles starts showing off his powers. Miles on the other hand? He’s literally never dealt with someone with the power set, or prodigious top tier skill Wolverine possesses. Wolverine holds in another advantage in that he has shown superior combat speed than Miles in situations like in Spider-Man versus Wolverine #1. Now, I know with all these disadvantages Miles is at, you’re going to be relying on his infamous ability, the Venom Sting, to justify the Venom sting. Firstly, with Wolverine’s superior combat speed, he’ll be able to avoid Miles getting a solid hit. Secondly, James has been able to tank energy attacks (Which is what the Venom Blast). So while Miles taking out Wolverine via Venom Sting isn’t completely useless, between Wolverine’s superior combat speed, ludicrous skill advantage, and famous durability, Miles getting a Venom Sting without getting dropped hard isn’t looking very good in the slightest.
In regards to the energy attacks Wolverine has tanked, here is a pretty good example. Not saying that Wolverine is 100% incapable of being taken out the via the venom sting, but I firmly believe Logan has what it takes to tank a good amount of stings, and get in close to beat Miles quite handily in hand to hand combat.
With Deadpool noted to even have a better healing factor than Wolverine himself, I am pretty sure YNCG can bring some examples of Deadpool resisting energy attacks.
In short, I feel that Miles extreme lack of experience and overall combat aptitude, along with his utter lack of skill is going to make him pretty easy picking for either of the veteran Wolverine or Deadpool.
VERSUS ULTIMATE CAPTAIN AMERICA:
Ultimate Captain America, the Ultimate Universe’s own sentinel of liberty. He has gained fame and infamy around comic book debating websites for his own looser moral code and noticeably superior physicals in comparison to 616 Captain America. While a worthy foe indeed, Ultimate Captain America also has disadvantages that will allow Wolverine to beat him. First off, I address fighting skill. I firmly believe Wolverine is holding a distinct fighting skill edge over Ultimate skill. In terms of raw technical skill, I think Wolverine has pulled off superior things in like stating knowing how to incapacitate every living thing that “Walks, flies, or slithers in this big ole universe.” He backed it up too when he went on to incapacitate the 50+ tonner Strontian Kid Gladiator. Secondly, I feel Wolverine has had better training in comparison to Ultimate Steve, and better expoundation on his specific areas of martial art prowess. Now I know that Ultimate Steve was thoroughly trained to be a highly skilled fighting scene by the military, but let’s take a look at Wolverine’s training history? He’s mastered 18 forms of Kung Fu under Master Po, he learned kenjutsu, aikido, buijuitsu, and more under the level 7/7 fighter Ogun, he has trained under the Hand Leader stick (The man who trained Daredevil, one of the Marvel Universe’s best fighters), he learned more Kung Fu from Shang Chi, he’s been extensively trained by the military just like Cap, and he has multiple bios noting that he has mastered every martial art known to man, and is a confirmed 7/7 talent. Ultimate Steve simply doesn’t match up in terms of training quality IMO. He essentially has everything he has training wise, and a little more.
Training is all good, but you got to back it up with feats. Let’s look at Wolverine’s plethora of skill feats, shall we? He has managed to beat Iron Fist in a sparring match in New Avengers both were holding back, he beat 616 Captain America (Someone who has mastered every martial art known to man, has beaten some of Marvel’s finest fighters, has been called the finest warrior by Kang the Conqueror) handily in Origins despite having a severely nerfed healing factor, and Steve being fresh, he’s managed to gain the upperhand on Daredevil in a fight, he’s beaten the ridiculously talented swordsman Silver Samurai twice, he beat Mister X (A ludicrous skilled fighter who has on panel confirmation of knowing every martial known to man and alien ones, and had low level telepathy that allows him to predict opponent’s attacks) when he went into a feral state and relied purely on instinct and skill, he’s beaten Captain America’s extremely adept sidekick Winter Soldier silly while handcuffed, he has destroyed his son Daken on two occasions (In the first one, a Wolverine holding back managed to rip out Daken’s claws, and beat him handily. On the second one, a Wolverine who had finally been pushed to the point of letting loose, went on to obliterate and kill Daken.), finished Shang Chi in three pages, and more. James is arguably the most skilled man walking Marvel Earth today. Wolverine’s skill is going to end up lessening some of Ultimate Cap’s advantages.
Now, looking at physicals, Ultimate Cap is a completely different beast than 616 Steve. He is clearly superhuman who is about a 8-9 toner and is rocking a decent healing factor that lets him heal broken bones in days and gunshot wounds in hours. While I concede Ultimate Steve is superior in strength, Wolverine is no slouch strength wise himself. He is a confirmed 2 ton low level superhuman who has nonchalantly thrown 1,600 lb. dumpsters with one hand, knocked out a 2,000 lb. bear with two punches, knocked out the 15 tonner Apocalyspe Caliban, when they got into a fist fight, he’s knocked out Roguehouse in a bar fight, uses trees as baseball bats, punches through steel, etc. Something that I feel bridges the physical strength gap, is Wolverine’s ridiculous superhuman speed. He has made Spider-Man think he was faster than him with it, he’s dodged bullets after they have been fired, he covers 30 foot distances so fast that it looks like he didn’t move at all, he’s moved fast enough to kill ninja without them evening noticing that he just killed them, he’s dodged Cyclops optic blasts while weakened, dodged rockets, started ten feet from a Nuke with his finger on a rocket launcher and kicked it away before the rocket left the launcher all while weakened, etc.
Ultimate Captain America has a more diverse set of standard equipment than 616 Steve from what I have seen which includes grenades, etc., but it won’t really do much here. The grenades will be soaked with Logan’s extremely consistent history soaking much worse explosions/heat, and his guns will be soaked as well. The biggest piece of equipment that Ultimate Steve will be bringing here is his shield, and that sadly will not be enough. All that shield brings is blunt force, and blunt force soaking is Wolverine’s bread and butter to say the least. Sure, he has a few low showings like anyone who has been in 10,000+ comics, but looking at his consistent feats, Ultimate Steve isn’t bringing enough blunt force to drop James. He’s regularly soaked 616 Steve’s shield bashes which have KO’d metahumans, the 30-35 toner Scarlet Spider recently almost broke his hand when he tried to slug out Wolverine for the win, tanked punches from Spider-Man, Caliban, and many more superhumanns. Wolverine is in contrast if bringing a far superior damage output into this fight with his adamantium claws. Even with Ultinate Cap's decent healing factor, I really don't see him holding up well after getting stabbed and slashed a few times. Really, the way I see this fight going down, once James starts utilizing his skill, he's going to get around that shield and start going for dismemberment of limbs. Ultimate Cap can put up a decent effort against Wolverine, but not enough to pull his team to victory.
Just to back up some of the references to the moments I noted throughout my post against Ultimate Cap, here are some scans:
CONCLUSION:
To finish off my opener, I think my Team is bringing several critical advantages to this fight that should let us walk away with the majority when it's all said and done. We have the better team chemistry and have been working together extensively for a longer time than your team has been able to. This will allow for us to work more fluidly and be a more potent combination that your team can hope to be. We also bring the experience edge and do not have the burden of having a relative greenhorn in our ranks who is still adjusting to this type of environment. We're going to be moving quick, hard, and with devastating efficiency to get the job done. I also feel that my team has provided some solid reasons for us being able to drop anyone on your squad if needs. Doesn't matter who we go against, we can handle this.
Well, that's my opener, now it's time for you guys to give us your best shot if you think you can :D
Alright, first off I would like to apologize for not getting the battle done on time. I spent the whole of Sunday traveliing home for christmas and didn't get home till late. But with that out of the way, lets get started on the Battle of Hand.
@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek you made some good points here, and I look forward to looking at them.
Team Chemistry
Chemistry is "growth, then decay, then transformation". Sorry, had to put a Breaking Bad reference here. *cough* Moving on. Sure, Ultimate Cap and Miles Morales have worked together extensively before, and seem to work along just fine, but it doesn't compare with the personal history and chemistry that Logan and Wade have. Not only are the two closer because of what they have gone through, but they've also worked as a team on multiple instances. On the surface it might seem as all Wade does is annoy Wolverine, and while that may be true, it doesn't stop there. Deadpool and Wolverine have run into each other as friends and foes more times than I can count and know each other pretty well to an extent where its applicable in combat. Remender's UNCANNY X-FORCE is an excellent example of where Deadpool not only cooperates extremely well with Wolverine, but also as a team with the likes of Psylocke, Fantomex, and Archangel. Captain America may be a great leader, but these two are on a familiar ground that not even Ultimate or 616 Cap's leadership can compare to.
You make a good point here about Wolverine and Wade. The first point to make here is "Bah, how can Wade and Logan work together when they been at eachothers throats before", and indeed, that was my first thought when I thought of Team synergy. But the thing is that people do not realyn need to be on good- or even platonic terms when working together, which is something Logan has done in the past. He's worked with people like Kaine, Daken and Cyclops (recently IIRC), all who he has problems with in the past - Kaine with invading his home, Daken and thier tumotulous relationship (he even kne Daken was going to betray him in the end, but still followed through) and Cyclops (given Schiscm and AvX).
When you combine that with the fact that they have worked together positively as you have mentioned, then they will make an efective unit, espicially considering that they are good enough to go it alone independently and that thier bouts with one another enable them to know the limits of one another and what they can take.
What I do believe though, is that Deadpool and Wolverine will probably see eachother as equals. In the case of Miles and Steve, Steve is the very clear leader among the two. This means any order given by Ult Cap is likely to followed duely, and with little hesistation- Steve intially barred Miles from working as a Superhero, and only allowed him in, when he helped him take down Ult Rhino. I can't see such a arrangement taking place between Wade and Logan in character, at least not without some verbal bickering. Furthermore, Miles following orders from Ult Cap isn't really a bad thing, as the guy is a Tatical genuis.
Gallery
Of Course, this is not to slant the tactics that Wolverine can bring into the battle, I believe anaylsis of his brain has compared his neural activity as conducting a chess match against a supercomputer, while simultaneuosly completing a Olympic grade Gymnastic routine. And Wade may act foolish in battle, but he has a wealth of experience and combat, which I'll be more than happy to give the nod in regards to Miles on such matters. Overall, between the greater overall combat experience of the 616 team, and the tighter mentor- pupil relationship between the Ultimates, I think any advantage obtained by either team via chemistry is too narrow to be a determining factor in victory.
(Thumbs up for the Breaking Bad reference).
Versus Miles Morales
Miles Morales, as far as I'm aware, isn't that skilled. Sure, Spider-Woman remarked that he was a natural fighter, but it pales in comparison to what Deadpool has done in his career, even with bad writing. Jessica isn't exactly a top-tier fighter either, especially considering SHIELD training is weak enough to enable Cape Killers to get wrecked by Punisher. I also should remind you Frank himself was almost killed by Deadpool three times in a single issue, one wherein Wade was beating him to death.
It would be fairly foolhardy to compare Wade's and Miles H2H fighting skill, or even Wade and Jessica's, and say they are equal. Still, WhileShield training may not compare so well to the moves that established Street-Level martial artist bust out on a daily basis, but when combined with people with enhanced stats and physical attributes its a help. Characters with greater stats often throw down with more skilled, weaker characters and come out on top, and when combined with just a little bit of training, such characters combat can improve drasticially. We are all aware of how much of a fighter 616 Peter became with some only short term training from Shang-Chi, who is a quite a bit away from being the best fighter in the MU.
This is why the Punisher reference is a bit off IMO. First off the Cape Killers don't have powers,- so they don't have that instant boost in stats that Jess has. Secondly- with no disrepect to Frank Castle, he would lose handly to anyone of these characters in a Random encounter, so making reference to him isn't that helpful.That being said, this is a battle of skill/ equipment versus physicals, which bring me nicely to your next few points....
But what about Miles' physical enhancements and advantages over Deadpool? What about his webbing? His Venom Sting? Well there's two things about that. One, is that Morales' morals will hinder his abilities greatly, whereas Deadpool flat-out kills, maims, and without WIS/PIS, doesn't hold back.
Morales Morals? LOL (for the alliteration). Well first off, you are right that Miles indeed has Morales, but I think I disagree on the extent it will hold back his Morals. First off, the Venom strike perfectly compliments Miles fighting style, and enables him to neutralize a target while not only taxing himself the least, but also (in most cases) causing the least possible harm to neutralize a target. If Miles is in a fight, its very likely he will use it.
This was Miles first Major supervillian fight, against Ultimate Electro, to boot.
End of the second major fight against Ultimate Omega Red.
Point is, that these Villians were out for Miles Blood. In the first first, Ult Electro was convinved that Miles was the recently deceased Peter Parker- because Miles was wearing Peter Parker's suit, and he wasn't happy. As you can see directly above, Omega Red stated that he intended to rip Miles into four equal pieces. So villians acting with intentions to kill Miles isn't exactly new. Furthermore, I doubt Deadpool will be acting under completely deadly intentions to Miles as well. Deadpool has somewhat of a soft spot for minors.
http://fuckyesdeadpool.tumblr.com/post/28086203551/deadpools-weakness-for-children
Now is that to say that Deadpool is gonna sit their and wait to be defeated. No. Espicially not with Ult Cap America looking to kick him in the balls :p. I don't think he's going to be looking to maim, kill and slaughter with the comedic glee that he does to other foes.
He's blatantly ignored his Spider-Sense before on multiple occasions IIRC, which have led to negative consequences. Time and time again, skill has overcome great odds, whether mental or physical. Take Gorgon wrecking both Elektra and Wolverine for example. Tomi's skill and incredible speed enabled him to overcome near-impossible odds.
Miles is not as versed with his Spider-Sense as say Peter (616 and 1610), but I do feel your under-estimating his proficiency with it. Miles not using the Spider-Sense refers to two instances. The first instance is when he first dresses up as Spider-Man, and encounters the attentions of a p!ssed of Jessica (Ult Spider-Woman). At this point in time, Miles was only just coming to grips with his powers- he even thought he was getting cancer at the time.
This was very early in Miles Career, and only 4 issues into his comicbook. The second point most likely points to his fight with Ult Giant Woman, where he knew he was in Danger, i.e he was being chased by her, and his Spider-Sense was still firing.
Gallery
(Thanks for the scans @cadencev2 - I don't know how you have the patience to upload all of this >:) )
I'd probably compare Miles Spider-Sense now to how Peter's (616's) was early in his career. In that it was helpful, but not the Low Grade Telepathy (Words of Iron Fist), intragrated aid to a mystical fighting style that Peter posssessed before sucumbing to Doctor Octopus in dying wish.
Concerning Gorgon vs Wolverine in that Battle, I really struggle to see what major odd Gorgon overcame in terms to win. I know Wolverine said that trying to match Gorgon in terms of skill was pointless, but it was also qualified by the statemate "He's taken out elektra, an assasin". What chances do I have" IIRC. Needless to say Wolverine > Elektra in combat skill. This isn't to say that Tomi isn't extremely skilled, but the guy Strength equivical/greater to Wolverine, Eqivucal healing, Combat Telepathy and crazy speed (i.e cutting off the hands of a speedster-slingshot, before they even know what's going on). Say we had Gorgon take on Wolverine and another "Super Street-Leveler", like Iron Fist or one that isn't known for thier skill, like Kaine, Lizard or Venom, then he would had a much harder time of things. What I'm trying to say is Gorgon stomped Wolverine and Elektra because of both his powers and skill, rather than just the later. Wolverine even stated that Gorgon had "Powers coming out of the Wazoo", or words to that effect.
Keep in mind Wade is also an enhanced human due to his healing factor, therefore increasing his strength, stamina, and more. Heck, Deadpool has taken on enemies where he is severely outmatched in terms of physical stats. The merc has held back Juggernaut, stalemated Kraven the Hunter (who has went toe-to-toe with Spider-Man), fought Killmonger, who has regularly defeated Black Panther in combat, to a standstill, and even managed to keep back Age of Apocalypse Blob and Age of Apocalypse Iceman. I seriously doubt Miles would be able to replicate some of the feats Deadpool has achieved. Morales has speed over Wade? Please. Deadpool has been able to hold his own against Ajax, who had enhanced strength and super-speed/agility, and outright killed a Whizzer clone created by Arnim Zola. Now, the clone does not have definitive or quantifiable feats, but it can be assumed than he was able to go at the same speeds as the original, if not greater. Nonetheless, he is going at incredibly high speeds, and yet Wade is able to effortlessly one-shot him, while taking down different opponents, dodging attacks from various angles, and goofing off.
I honestly didn't know that Wade had enhanced strength, until K4tzm4n mentioned it in his Battle of week thread where Wade took on Batman. I'd assumed it was part of his original powereset, but then was written out of continuity (such is the reliability of wikia's :P). Still, its a fair bet to say Miles even at his young age, is considerably stronger.
Gallery
Keep in mind that Ult Cap knocked out Ult Giant, and he is around a 10 tonner at Max. I honestly don't think Miles is as strong as that, but I will jugde from his age when compared to Peter, that he is at somewhere above 5 tonnes.
The merc has held back Juggernaut, stalemated Kraven the Hunter (who has went toe-to-toe with Spider-Man), fought Killmonger, who has regularly defeated Black Panther in combat, to a standstill, and even managed to keep back Age of Apocalypse Blob and Age of Apocalypse Iceman. I seriously doubt Miles would be able to replicate some of the feats Deadpool has achieved. Morales has speed over Wade? Please. Deadpool has been able to hold his own against Ajax, who had enhanced strength and super-speed/agility, and outright killed a Whizzer clone created by Arnim Zola. Now, the clone does not have definitive or quantifiable feats, but it can be assumed than he was able to go at the same speeds as the original, if not greater. Nonetheless, he is going at incredibly high speeds, and yet Wade is able to effortlessly one-shot him, while taking down different opponents, dodging attacks from various angles, and goofing off.
There are alot of high end feats here, which is fine, but also some ABC Logic, which can be a bit tricky. First off, any street-leveler being anything more than a pothole to Marko smells suspect to me. But back to the ABC Logic.Kraven, indeed ,has done well against Peter (and Kaine) in the past- but these are characters that Slade has on panel struggled with before. Spider-Man has effortlessly defeated Wade before (Granted it he was mad and blamed Wade on a crime he didn't commit) but it still happened. Killimonger, as far as I'm aware hasn't consistently beaten T'Challa. The one time I recall that happening is when the two had been fighting for an extended period of time, and Panther got distracted (@jashro44 could probably clear that up, to see who is right).
Different characters have different attributes which enable them to handle different characters in different situations. I could very well respond by saying Miles in his first fight defeated Ult Electro, who was giving Spider-Woman, Nick Fury and Ult Iron Man trouble, the latter of which, when written properly, could probably solo both your, and my team.
Deadpool could have an edge in combat speed, but in aviodence and Movement Speed, I give the nod to Miles. He can web-sling, and he can stick to walls, which allow him and other spider-type characters to fight in a more 3-Dimensional manner. The use of webbing would likely slow down Wade too, and has done so in the past, from 616 Peter
Deadpool does escape in the next scan, via Rocket Propelled boots, but that was due to Prep.........
Miles has the ability to do likewise.
Even if Deadpool blows his way out of that, it gives Miles time to take the fight elsewhere, before Wade can enter the fray again.
The Venom Sting that Miles has works only when he gets close enough to physically touch his combatant in order for it to work, and I do not see that happening with Deadpool's enhanced stats and skill. At least not without consequences anyways. There's also to note that Deadpool's advanced healing factor would have the potential to negate the effects, and if not, allow him to heal quickly enough so that we don't lose.
First off, The Venom Blast can be Omnidirectional, and doesn't have to directly touch someone in order to work. Miles killed Prowler (accidently), by touching his suit which exploded and then killed him. He K.O'ed Peter Parker by the Venom stinging the Webbing surronding him (though he was enraged). That being said, he is more likely to touch someone, in order to strike them, hence why his so often utilizes invisibility in combat. And unlikely Wolverine, Wade doesn't have enhanced senses to warm him of such covert tactics.
It not to far to assume Miles Webs up Wade, Stings him a couple of times to K.O or him or simply knocks him out (which I believe he's capable of). If we assume that Wade uses explosives to free himself of webbing, it leaves Wolverine alone to be double teamed for the time being, while Wade puts himself back together again.
Now of course, this is a 2v2 CaV, so I'm going to hand over to @cadencev2 to tackle your points concerning Ultimate Captain America.
@wolverine08 said:
The one time I recall that happening is when the two had been fighting for an extended period of time, and Panther got distracted (@jashro44 could probably clear that up, to see who is right).
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you are referring to Black Panther's fight against Killmonger in issue 20 of Christopher Priest's Black Panther run. Killmonger had studied T'Challa's fighting style and was physically enhanced at the time. They fought for 13 hours (With one hour breaks in between each fight), and towards the end, T'Challa was starting to get the upperhand on Killmonger until he got distracted by his friend appearing at the fight with a helicopter, and Killmonger seized the opportunity to defeat T'Challa. I'm having a hard time recalling their other fights right now, but I'm sure Jash will clear things up.
Yea Killmonger has the advantage of knowing how black panther fights, I don't think killmonger is as skilled as black panther. Its also worth noting that the fight between deadpool and killmonger took place before killmongers upgrade in priests run. Granted even before his upgrade killmonger seemed to be stronger then black panther.
Here are there other fights (before killmongers upgrade)
Gallery
Gallery
@laflux said:
You make a good point here about Wolverine and Wade. The first point to make here is "Bah, how can Wade and Logan work together when they been at eachothers throats before", and indeed, that was my first thought when I thought of Team synergy. But the thing is that people do not realyn need to be on good- or even platonic terms when working together, which is something Logan has done in the past. He's worked with people like Kaine, Daken and Cyclops (recently IIRC), all who he has problems with in the past - Kaine with invading his home, Daken and thier tumotulous relationship (he even kne Daken was going to betray him in the end, but still followed through) and Cyclops (given Schiscm and AvX).
When you combine that with the fact that they have worked together positively as you have mentioned, then they will make an efective unit, espicially considering that they are good enough to go it alone independently and that thier bouts with one another enable them to know the limits of one another and what they can take.
Sure, people do not have to be on perfect terms when they work together, but it certainly helps. Again, team chemistry can really effect teamwork as a whole. For example, although Kaine and Wolverine had their differences, they still had a mutual respect for one another. Daken and Wolverine? Well, Logan himself has wondered what it would have been like if he had been there for his son. Cyclops is another person he has an extensive history working with thanks to the X-Men. There have been conflicts yes, but the fact remains: a long history can go far. I doubt Wolverine would work with, say, Sauron, unless they are in a very dire situation. With Miles and Ult. Steve, they don't have the respect that Wolverine and Deadpool have, and it isn't out of character for Miles to disobey some of Cap's direct orders. With Wolverine and Deadpool, they work together seamlessly despite Wade's character, as seen in Remender's UNCANNY X-FORCE a multitude of times. In fact, the most shining moment that I can recall of how close Deadpool and Wolverine are is in DEADPOOL #61. To make a long story short, Deadpool is killed, and the news quickly spreads to his friends and foe alike. In the mentioned issue, Deadpool is a spirit and witnesses his own funeral. Guess who is in charge of operating the funeral? None other than Wolverine himself. A bit of a spoiler, but Sabretooth plays a huge role in Wade's death, and this single page speaks thousands of words IMO.
It's a powerful, completely silent issue. Really speaks for itself when you try and compare Miles and Cap's relationship to Deadpool and Wolverine's. It simply doesn't compare.
What I do believe though, is that Deadpool and Wolverine will probably see eachother as equals. In the case of Miles and Steve, Steve is the very clear leader among the two. This means any order given by Ult Cap is likely to followed duely, and with little hesistation- Steve intially barred Miles from working as a Superhero, and only allowed him in, when he helped him take down Ult Rhino. I can't see such a arrangement taking place between Wade and Logan in character, at least not without some verbal bickering. Furthermore, Miles following orders from Ult Cap isn't really a bad thing, as the guy is a Tatical genuis.
Gallery
I don't see how Deadpool and Wolverine seeing each other as equals is a bad thing? If anything that is an advantage to my team. Your duo won't know who to strike first, who's the leader, etc. etc. In fact, if anything, it'll make it more clear for either Wolverine or Deadpool to take out Captain America first and cripple the source of the strategic and tactical commands. Meanwhile, Deadpool and Wolverine, as you say, can command independently and cooperatively, with absolute ease. Who's to say Ult.Cap even has the time or concentration to direct Miles? I can assure you if he's fighting against Wolverine he'll have his hands full, and with Deadpool, his bantering alone would be enough to distract Rogers. With Wolverine and Deadpool as equals, they are capable of not only guiding each other, warning each other, giving tips, direction, and more as equally leveled partners, but do not have to rely on each other by any means. Think of it as Batman and Green Arrow and Batman and Robin. Bruce and Ollie are perfectly capable of trading information in-combat, but also acting on their own. Robin however, lacks the leadership to act at normal efficiency solo. Oh, and Wade will joke around, but he won't defy orders or fail to acknowledge important information Logan tells him. Heck, in UNCANNY X-FORCE #2, Archangel, whom Wade has practically no history or bond with that I'm aware of, orders Deadpool to hold back War. Without hesitation or resistance, Deadpool does so.
There's also another factor that your team isn't accounting for when it comes to team chemistry: Deadpool's chaos. Wolverine knows this all too well (Cable too probably). This is a key factor in breaking up your teams communication. Utilizing Wade's personality and bottomless satchel, Deadpool could wreck havoc among the battlefield. This is something that no matter how much of a strategic/tactical genius you are, you cannot effectively counter. And guess what? He doesn't have to rely on Wolverine in order to use it. Not even Taskmaster, who has analyzed and studied almost every street-leveler from Punisher, Elektra, Daredevil, to Spider-Man and Wolverine himself, can adequately predict Wade's advances. Oh, and I just want to add that Deadpool is extremely intelligent despite what people think. Just because he acts stupid, doesn't mean he is.
Of Course, this is not to slant the tactics that Wolverine can bring into the battle, I believe anaylsis of his brain has compared his neural activity as conducting a chess match against a supercomputer, while simultaneuosly completing a Olympic grade Gymnastic routine. And Wade may act foolish in battle, but he has a wealth of experience and combat, which I'll be more than happy to give the nod in regards to Miles on such matters. Overall, between the greater overall combat experience of the 616 team, and the tighter mentor- pupil relationship between the Ultimates, I think any advantage obtained by either team via chemistry is too narrow to be a determining factor in victory.
(Thumbs up for the Breaking Bad reference).
I do think that teamwork has enabled people and groups of people to overcome great odds before. Take 616 Captain America as a, ironic, but good example. He's been outnumbered tons of times, but because of his close relationship with his troops, they have pushed against the flow of the world itself. While Captain America is very experienced and famous for his strategic/tactical prowess, I don't see it overcoming the close bond that Deadpool and Wolverine how. This is not to mention that Wolverine has led the X-Men numerous times, and was the leader of the X-Force. 1610 Cap also doesn't seem all too impressive in terms of leadership, and also hasn't displayed much of it with just one companion with him. Same with 616 Cap, his shining moments of glory in that regard are always in teams, whether it be the Avengers or his close pack of soldiers. I've never seen 616, let alone 1610 Steve give any impressive commands with one, or even two other allies present.
It would be fairly foolhardy to compare Wade's and Miles H2H fighting skill, or even Wade and Jessica's, and say they are equal. Still, WhileShield training may not compare so well to the moves that established Street-Level martial artist bust out on a daily basis, but when combined with people with enhanced stats and physical attributes its a help. Characters with greater stats often throw down with more skilled, weaker characters and come out on top, and when combined with just a little bit of training, such characters combat can improve drasticially. We are all aware of how much of a fighter 616 Peter became with some only short term training from Shang-Chi, who is a quite a bit away from being the best fighter in the MU.
Good thing Deadpool has fought someone with insanely high hand-to-hand combat skill and a plethora of unique abilities and enhancements right? Meet Wolverine, although I'm sure my bud @wolverine08 has already introduced him to you guys. In DEADPOOL #27, Wade is suffering from hallucinations from his fight with The Destroyer, so Doctor Bong (yeah, that's his real name) suggests that Deadpool fights a hero in order to get rid of them. So Deadpool punches Kitty in order to provoke Wolverine, and of course, Logan rushes at Wade, enraged, and Deadpool fights him to a standstill. This is Bone Claw Wolverine, but you have to acknowledge that Deadpool is suffering from hallucinations, and is goofing off quite a lot; a bit more than usual. It isn't until Deadpool stops fighting that Wolverine gets the upper hand. Now I hate to use ABC Logic, but Wolverine is not only more experienced than Miles, but he's deadlier, more skilled, faster from what I've seen, and has a healing factor.
Gallery
Shang-Chi may not be the greatest hand-to-hand combatant, but at least he is notable. SHIELD Training is nowhere near anything that Shang-Chi can dish out simply because he is a named character. Nick Fury himself stated back in Jim Steranko's run that three or four Hydra goons were equal to that of a SHIELD Agent. That may have been impressive back then, but now that you assess their standards and feats compared to Shang-Chi, they're three ballparks away from his league.
This is why the Punisher reference is a bit off IMO. First off the Cape Killers don't have powers,- so they don't have that instant boost in stats that Jess has. Secondly- with no disrepect to Frank Castle, he would lose handly to anyone of these characters in a Random encounter, so making reference to him isn't that helpful.That being said, this is a battle of skill/ equipment versus physicals, which bring me nicely to your next few points....
Cape Killers don't have powers, but from what I remember, they were specially trained and designed to take down powered characters. Frank himself stated that SHIELD Agents where weakly trained in the modern-age compared to how they were trained years ago. That only strengthens Nick Fury's analogy that I mentioned previously. Jessica has a stat boost, but her core training isn't going to help much if it's not notably impressive and/or significant in her fights. Punisher would get wrecked by any of the combatants here, but again, that only strengthens my point. If Frank can already wreck SHIELD Agents and isn't that impressive, what does that say for Jessica's training? The 1610 SHIELD Agents don't even have an extensive history either, and have next to no backing. I really don't think her stating that Miles is a natural should be weighted so heavily if she herself isn't exactly formidable.
Morales Morals? LOL (for the alliteration). Well first off, you are right that Miles indeed has Morales, but I think I disagree on the extent it will hold back his Morals. First off, the Venom strike perfectly compliments Miles fighting style, and enables him to neutralize a target while not only taxing himself the least, but also (in most cases) causing the least possible harm to neutralize a target. If Miles is in a fight, its very likely he will use it.
This was Miles first Major supervillian fight, against Ultimate Electro, to boot.
End of the second major fight against Ultimate Omega Red.
That is pretty impressive. However, at the end of the day, lethal force only helps in a battle. Non-lethal means have never done well against Wolverine or Deadpool considering how powerful their healing factors are. On top of that, it seems that people who have high durability can shrug off some of the Venom Stings. Also, Electro and Omega Red are nowhere near as skilled or formidable as Deadpool. In fact, Deadpool was able to give tons of trouble for Daken, Blob, and Omega Black, who has a similar power-set to Omega Red alone without his healing factor. Electrical attacks (which I'm assuming what the Venom Sting is), have never fared well against Wade either. Storm's lightning failed to even faze Deadpool, and the only recent example I can remember of a similar attack working is in Duggan's recent run when Butler's minions tazed Wade and it somehow worked. That's outright WIS on Duggan's part though, or it was because the minions had studied Deadpool for years and somehow made a stun gun specifically designed to take out Wade. Deadpool has consistently been able to keep up with the likes of Wolverine, who is arguably faster than Morales. However, in his fights with him, he often does not get tagged often, so I am finding it hard to see Miles, who is arguably not as fast as Logan, and isn't nearly as skilled, will tag Deadpool. On top of that, Miles doesn't always resort to using the Venom Sting either, and may or may not use it on a normal human (or so it appears with Wilson). Even if Deadpool gets paralyzed, he's not going out without a bang.
Let's just say it isn't out of character for Wade to leave a surprise present in a situation where he's "pinned" down. Miles shouldn't take a majority over Deadpool IMO, and even if he does, he won't be in any condition to fight Wolverine. On top of all of this, it isn't impossible that Deadpool could drop Miles in one hit with his solar plexus technique either.
Deadpool, when he's not jobbing and written right, is a deadly opponent.
Point is, that these Villians were out for Miles Blood. In the first first, Ult Electro was convinved that Miles was the recently deceased Peter Parker- because Miles was wearing Peter Parker's suit, and he wasn't happy. As you can see directly above, Omega Red stated that he intended to rip Miles into four equal pieces. So villians acting with intentions to kill Miles isn't exactly new. Furthermore, I doubt Deadpool will be acting under completely deadly intentions to Miles as well. Deadpool has somewhat of a soft spot for minors.
http://fuckyesdeadpool.tumblr.com/post/28086203551/deadpools-weakness-for-children
Now is that to say that Deadpool is gonna sit their and wait to be defeated. No. Espicially not with Ult Cap America looking to kick him in the balls :p. I don't think he's going to be looking to maim, kill and slaughter with the comedic glee that he does to other foes.
Again, none of those guys are anywhere near as skilled as Deadpool or Logan. There is a chance that Deadpool wouldn't be able to tell that Miles is a mere teenager though, since Ultimate Electro mistook him for the older Ultimate Peter Parker. However, for the most part, I do agree that Deadpool wouldn't attempt to outright kill Miles if he did recognize he was a teenager. That doesn't mean he wouldn't use deadly force though. Wade could still fight with the same proficiency non-lethally, and could still injure Miles significantly without killing him. I'm perfectly aware that Deadpool has a strict policy when it comes to kids. I've read every single one of those examples save for the more modern ones. However, Pool-Boy/Kid Deadpool is an absolutely horrific example. First of all, Deadpool did NOT want him as his sidekick, and even insisted that he leaves. Furthermore, Deadpool himself said that he wanted to get him out of his life as soon as possible. Heck, Pool-Boy has tried to kill Deadpool multiple times, even trying to rig explosives in the former's home and blowing it up. The only reason Wade even considered taking care of him was because he didn't carry through a mission correctly and got his father killed. My point is that Deadpool is more of a threat to Miles than Miles is a threat to Deadpool.
Miles is not as versed with his Spider-Sense as say Peter (616 and 1610), but I do feel your under-estimating his proficiency with it. Miles not using the Spider-Sense refers to two instances. The first instance is when he first dresses up as Spider-Man, and encounters the attentions of a p!ssed of Jessica (Ult Spider-Woman). At this point in time, Miles was only just coming to grips with his powers- he even thought he was getting cancer at the time.
Fair point, however, I don't see that it is impossible for this situation to be recreated in this fight. Miles is staring down at Wolverine, who is one of the deadliest Marvel street-levelers, with three protruding, sharp adamantium claws, and Deadpool, a deadly mercenary who, just by looking at him, can easily be seen that he is packing tons of firepower. The adamantium claws alone would probably make Morales feel very uneasy, and could mess up his Spider-Sense. You've also got multiple opponents here, with Wade and Logan with arguably better teamwork. Wolverine could interfere in the fight suddenly, since I do see Logan dropping 1610 Captain America, and Miles would fail to see it coming. Toss in Deadpool's formidable skill, huge arsenal, and distracting banter, and someone that is inexperienced with his powers (even now) could be having a rough time.
This was very early in Miles Career, and only 4 issues into his comicbook. The second point most likely points to his fight with Ult Giant Woman, where he knew he was in Danger, i.e he was being chased by her, and his Spider-Sense was still firing.
Gallery
(Thanks for the scans @cadencev2 - I don't know how you have the patience to upload all of this >:) )
I'd probably compare Miles Spider-Sense now to how Peter's (616's) was early in his career. In that it was helpful, but not the Low Grade Telepathy (Words of Iron Fist), intragrated aid to a mystical fighting style that Peter posssessed before sucumbing to Doctor Octopus in dying wish.
That is definitely going to be in favor of my team. Even Miles Morales more into his career cannot utilize his Spider-Sense to its standard potential. First of all, the entire battle Miles is going to be constantly in danger. Whether it be Deadpool having a chance to take down Miles, or Wolverine finishing up with Cap and helping Wade as said up top, Miles Spider-Sense isn't honed enough to effectively counter everything. Another thing, if Miles somehow does finish Wade, he'll most likely do it with a Venom Sting, which is non-lethal. Deadpool's healing factor would be powerful enough to have him resume consciousness in a very short period of time, and ambush Miles from behind. I'm not sure how long it took for Omega Red to recover, but he has a healing factor too. Granted it is not remotely in Wade's league since, IIRC, Red still suffers from carbonadium poisoning every now and then. Morales, assuming that his Spider-Sense is ringing only because he's fighting Wolverine, would have a high chance of ignoring it, therefore allowing Wade to knockout the new Spider-Man. The same can be said vice-versa with Wolverine's potent healing factor. Since you said that Miles' Spider-Sense is roughly equal to that of early Peter's I do think this reinforces my argument even more. Punisher in his first debut and technically featless at the time, was able to give 616 Spidey tons of trouble. Deadpool, who is superior to Frank in almost every area, should be able to drop Miles, or at least dish out enough for Wolverine to finish him up.
Concerning Gorgon vs Wolverine in that Battle, I really struggle to see what major odd Gorgon overcame in terms to win. I know Wolverine said that trying to match Gorgon in terms of skill was pointless, but it was also qualified by the statemate "He's taken out elektra, an assasin". What chances do I have" IIRC. Needless to say Wolverine > Elektra in combat skill. This isn't to say that Tomi isn't extremely skilled, but the guy Strength equivical/greater to Wolverine, Eqivucal healing, Combat Telepathy and crazy speed (i.e cutting off the hands of a speedster-slingshot, before they even know what's going on). Say we had Gorgon take on Wolverine and another "Super Street-Leveler", like Iron Fist or one that isn't known for thier skill, like Kaine, Lizard or Venom, then he would had a much harder time of things. What I'm trying to say is Gorgon stomped Wolverine and Elektra because of both his powers and skill, rather than just the later. Wolverine even stated that Gorgon had "Powers coming out of the Wazoo", or words to that effect.
Wolverine said "Took down Elektra, dumb-ass. World's greatest ninja. What chance do you have?". Tomi was seen to be only a tad stronger than Wolverine, but his healing wasn't as good as Logan's, simply his sheer will-power and durability was very high. His combat telepathy was questionable as a factor in the fight, since it didn't seem to he was using it, rather utilizing his superior speed. Speed in my opinion, also has to do with skill. You have to hone it, just like the sprinters in Olympic events. Deadpool is sporting enhanced strength, reflexes, and speed here too. Elektra is fairly formidable in my opinion, so you shouldn't rule her out. If you're not satisfied with this analogy however, which is perfectly understandable, I'll use another. Punisher held his own for an extended period of time against Daken in DARK REIGN because of his skill, pain tolerance, and equipment. Granted a tad of PIS was involved, Punisher was able to hold his own against someone with superior strength, speed, durability, and a healing factor. Heck, some say Daken is already more skilled than Punisher in that regard anyways. But despite this, Castle was able to give one hell of a fight before going down. I mean, if Ultimate Deadpool can give Ultimate Peter and members of the Ult. X-Men trouble (ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #93-94), 616 Wade, who is infinitely more impressive, should be able to at least be able to hold off Miles long enough for Wolverine to defeat Cap.
Gallery
There is a lot of chaos, but Ultimate Deadpool seems to be able to soak up Ultimate Peter's hits just fine, and, although there is a lot of chaos in this fight, he does manage to pin down Peter and had a chance to kill him. This shows that Peter, despite having a more honed Spider-Sense than Miles, can still be taken down by Deadpool, or at least be distracted by chaos enough so that Wade had a chance to take him down. With Wolverine, Cap, and Wilson's unpredictability, Miles has a huge chance of being taken out here.
I honestly didn't know that Wade had enhanced strength, until K4tzm4n mentioned it in his Battle of week thread where Wade took on Batman. I'd assumed it was part of his original powereset, but then was written out of continuity (such is the reliability of wikia's :P). Still, its a fair bet to say Miles even at his young age, is considerably stronger.
Gallery
Keep in mind that Ult Cap knocked out Ult Giant, and he is around a 10 tonner at Max. I honestly don't think Miles is as strong as that, but I will jugde from his age when compared to Peter, that he is at somewhere above 5 tonnes.
Eh. That's all impressive but I don't think strength, at least to this degree, is a relevant factor. 5-10 tons if nothing for Deadpool to tank, and he's consistently shown it too. Road trip!
- In DEADPOOL/DEATH ANNUAL 1998, Wade (pre-Deadpool) gets his stomach crushed, is still able to talk and joke around, and heals the injury with little problem(s).
- In DEADPOOL #44, She-Hulk punches Deadpool multiple times right in the face, and yet Wade is still conscious and relatively fine. He gets up and fights Killmonger right after. It is also important to note that Deadpool took a hit from Pym too.
Gallery
- In DEADPOOL #66, Deadpool shrugs off multiple punches from Rhino, gets thrown over a considerable distance, and is completely fine.
Gallery
- In DEADPOOL #3 (MARVEL NOW!), Zombie Presidents with super-strength crush Deadpool in a car, stab him in the back, and toss him in high speeds, impacting a building. Of course, Wade is fine and still conscious. A dumpster thrown at Deadpool would be no problem.
Gallery
Blunt force is nigh-impossible to knock out Deadpool with.
There are alot of high end feats here, which is fine, but also some ABC Logic, which can be a bit tricky. First off, any street-leveler being anything more than a pothole to Marko smells suspect to me. But back to the ABC Logic.Kraven, indeed ,has done well against Peter (and Kaine) in the past- but these are characters that Slade has on panel struggled with before. Spider-Man has effortlessly defeated Wade before (Granted it he was mad and blamed Wade on a crime he didn't commit) but it still happened. Killimonger, as far as I'm aware hasn't consistently beaten T'Challa. The one time I recall that happening is when the two had been fighting for an extended period of time, and Panther got distracted (@jashro44 could probably clear that up, to see who is right).
Deadpool is intelligent and skilled enough to give Juggernaut trouble. He's out-smarted him on two separate occasions, and in one avoided him for a brief time before Black Tom interfered.
- In DEADPOOL - THE CIRCLE CHASE #2, Deadpool avoids some rubble produced by Marko's punches, and starts to irritate him. Black Tom interferes from behind.
Gallery
- In DEADPOOL - THE CIRCLE CHASE #2, Deadpool comes back and confronts Jugg and Tom in an airplane. Out-smarting them, he tricks Juggernaut into saving Black Tom.
Gallery
- In DEADPOOL LIMITED SERIES #4, Wade constantly avoids Juggernaut with some help from Siryn, while outsmarting Peyer and defeats Black Tom. Shows how environmentally aware Wade is, and also how cunning he is.
Gallery
An enraged Spider-Man would take down anyone in this battle in my opinion, so I don't see how the point holds. Miles isn't nearly as skilled or experienced as Peter, and he has no reason to be angry by any means here. Keep in mind that while Deadpool was fighting Kraven, he was also simultaneously trying to save Osborne. Wolverine08 and jashro44 have already established that Killmonger has a very good track record against Black Panther, defeating him in almost every encounter. When Wade fought him, he was even more enhanced than usual, so it's an extremely impressive feat for Wade.
Different characters have different attributes which enable them to handle different characters in different situations. I could very well respond by saying Miles in his first fight defeated Ult Electro, who was giving Spider-Woman, Nick Fury and Ult Iron Man trouble, the latter of which, when written properly, could probably solo both your, and my team.
I concur, and Deadpool, in this situation has the traits/attributes needed in order to defeat Miles Morales. He has experience, skill, mentality, and equipment needed to defeat him. For experience, he's been around since the early 90's, and while that may not seem like a long time, it's still considerably more lengthy than the time Miles and Ult.Cap have been around. For skill, this is a guy who has stalemated nearly every top-tier street-leveler there is, each with their own unique plethora of abilities and extensive history. For mentality, not only can he distract and diminish the inexperienced Spider's performance, but he also has a looser moral set. For equipment, I don't need to say anything. Daredevil himself said that a small army only barely out-gun Wade.
Now, when you put skill, experience, good mentality, and equipment together, you have a deadly combination capable of taking on nearly any opponent.
Deadpool could have an edge in combat speed, but in aviodence and Movement Speed, I give the nod to Miles. He can web-sling, and he can stick to walls, which allow him and other spider-type characters to fight in a more 3-Dimensional manner. The use of webbing would likely slow down Wade too, and has done so in the past, from 616 Peter
Deadpool does escape in the next scan, via Rocket Propelled boots, but that was due to Prep.........
I firmly believe that Deadpool's agility should enable him to keep up with Miles despite his Spider-Powers. For one, the obstacle course that I posted in my opener was designed for a mech of speed that was greater than even Captain America's, and yet Deadpool breezed through it nonchalantly. I don't see Miles replicating that feat so easily, if at all. Webbing? There are multiple factors to that as well. First of all, there is a fair amount of cover in the battlefield, so Deadpool, utilizing the combat speed that you said was superior to Miles', would be able to avoid them. Another thing is that Deadpool could simply slice the webs to prevent them from actually hitting him. Wolverine has done it a number of times, even against Kaine, who is superior to 616 Peter in statistics, and has naturally produced webbing. Wilson's katanas, who have sliced through high-powered mechs, should have no problem cutting through webbing. You should also recognize that Deadpool has defeated the "best swordsman in five continents" (DEADPOOL LIMITED SERIES #1) , and stalemated Bloodwraith and Black Knight in swordsmanship (AVENGERS #366). In regards to the chance that webbing does hit Deadpool as seen above, you should consider that Deadpool has his bottomless satchel and blades to cut the webbing.
Miles has the ability to do likewise.
Even if Deadpool blows his way out of that, it gives Miles time to take the fight elsewhere, before Wade can enter the fray again.
Again, I'm fairly confident that Deadpool has the capability to simply slice the webbing like his partner Wolverine has shown countless times, so it shouldn't be a major game-changer. Those soldiers are mere fodder and I haven't seen the webbing taken down notable opponents before. Miles usually resorts to Venom Sting, which I have already debunked as a costly at best method of confronting the Merc with a Mouth. I also highly doubt that if Miles somehow does incapacitate Wade, that it would be in a period of time before Wolverine is done with Ult. Cap. Wolverine is more superior hand-to-hand combatant, deadlier, more durable, and has almost every advantage over Ult.Cap. Chances are, Miles is facing off against Wolverine solo, and he definitely isn't winning that with his injuries sustained from his scuffle with Wade. If Morales somehow miraculously manages to best Logan in a 1v1 encounter, Deadpool would have healed by then and is perfectly capable of taking down the Spider. Simply put, by the time you take down one, the other is already back up. Two healers is not a good situation to face off against. It doesn't help that Miles uses non-lethal means either.
First off, The Venom Blast can be Omnidirectional, and doesn't have to directly touch someone in order to work. Miles killed Prowler (accidently), by touching his suit which exploded and then killed him. He K.O'ed Peter Parker by the Venom stinging the Webbing surronding him (though he was enraged). That being said, he is more likely to touch someone, in order to strike them, hence why his so often utilizes invisibility in combat. And unlikely Wolverine, Wade doesn't have enhanced senses to warm him of such covert tactics.
It not to far to assume Miles Webs up Wade, Stings him a couple of times to K.O or him or simply knocks him out (which I believe he's capable of). If we assume that Wade uses explosives to free himself of webbing, it leaves Wolverine alone to be double teamed for the time being, while Wade puts himself back together again.
Now of course, this is a 2v2 CaV, so I'm going to hand over to @cadencev2 to tackle your points concerning Ultimate Captain America.
It may be omnidirectional, but it still has a very short radius/area of effect, plus Miles is unlikely to use that method of the Venom Blast. He has consistently attempted to get in close in order to utilize this attack, and that will be his downfall. Deadpool may not have enhanced senses, but he's perfectly capable without them. Miles also doesn't usually cloak in-combat, an suffers from CIS just like Kaine (Scarlet Spider). In most fights against notable characters, they do not utilize their abilities to their utmost potential and/or capabilities. Deadpool has recognized that someone was in his home simply by Blind Al's scent, and similarly knew for weeks that Copycat was posing as Titania and in another example, four different women by like methods. Deadpool has only been ambushed a handful of times, and usually was able to react to them. It isn't too far to assume that Miles would attempt to web or Venom Sting Deadpool, but it is too far to assume that it would be effective like you're suggesting. Deadpool has the speed and skill required to simply slice up the webs in a similar fashion that Logan has, or to avoid being stung long enough to potentially injure Miles or buy time for Wolverine. Knocking Deadpool out is NOT an option, even if you argue the fact that 5 tons of head trauma should do the trick. He's already braved through She-Hulks punches straight to his head while remaining conscious, and shrugged off Rhino's punches with little problems. The only recent instance where a Spider-Family character successfully knocked out Wade was in DEADPOOL #10 (MARVEL NOW!), when SpOck punched Deadpool and knocked him out. However, Deadpool was not expecting the attack since they were working together, and Peter's body has strength in the upper 20 ton range. Otto, while he does hold back since his Scorpion incident, unleashes a lot more damage output than Miles or Peter for that matter. 5-10 tons is not nearly enough to knock-out Deadpool. Wolverine being double-teamed is assuming that Ult.Cap can win, or even hold his own for the time needed against Logan. Oh, and explosives shouldn't injure Deadpool too much to a degree where it takes him a long time to recover.
Gallery
That's from DEADPOOL #45, and the explosives were set by the gifted Taskmaster and Wizard. Now, that was when Loki cursed Wade's face to look exactly like Thom Cruz (parody of Tom Cruise), and his head and face were practically invincible. However, that doesn't account for his body's protection. In the second scan I posted Wade suggests that his body may also be invincible, but I highly doubt that since Wade took on an entire army previously in order to rid of his face, but there wasn't a single scratch on it. His body though, was covered in injuries and his costume was shredded. Even if you want to discredit this feat, there are countless other examples that I can pull up that back up the claim of explosives not being able to instantly take Wade out of the game; even temporarily.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll most likely have to counter Ultimate Captain America too.
Log in to comment