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#1 Edited by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman - (@lvenger)

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VS

Jirou - (@emperorthanos)

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Rules

  • Random Encounter.
  • In character but fighting to win by whatever means necessary.
  • Pre Flashpoint Wonder Woman, Manga/Anime Toriko Feats.
  • Standard Gear.
  • Standard Elimination Rules - Victory by Death, KO, or Incap. No BFR.
  • Fight takes place on abandoned indestructible planet. Combatants start 50 feet away from each other.
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Challenge a Viner Rules:

  • For your vote to be counted it must not be based off the character, only the debater. Reasoning is appreciated =)
  • Regular posting, or making comments is perfectly fine. However, you are not permitted to interfere in the debate, post scans, nor start any separate debates with another user.
  • If you must correct either of us on a point or ask us a question regarding the debate, it would be appreciated if you would ask us in a P.M.
  • As always, may the best debater win.

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#2 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos I went ahead and made the thread, is there anything you want to add?

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#3 Posted by deactivated-5b60e98a8eb99 (11593 posts) - - Show Bio

Heh.

Tag

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#4 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Oh ok. Umm I guess making the battlefield indestructible would be good.

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#5 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Good point, let me just change the location to indestructible Earth. Also, would you mind if I went first? I can get a post up tomorrow morning, I'm even thinking I can get one up tonight if you don't mind?

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#6 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:I don't mind at all. You can post first.

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#8 Posted by deactivated-5b60e98a8eb99 (11593 posts) - - Show Bio

why tf is diana beating on an old man :(

She has experience.
She has experience.

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#9 Edited by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos:

Here’s my opener for Wonder Woman in this debate, hope we can make this an interesting one mate! :)

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Backstory

Diana was sculpted from clay by Queen Hippolyta of the Amazons who desired a daughter to raise and love as her own on the woman only Paradise Island. She prayed to the gods to grant her request and so the clay baby was brought to life. Diana was also given gifts from the gods themselves and was raised by the Amazons of Themyscira in intellect, culture and combat training. Diana’s blissful life on Themyscira was changed when US Air Force pilot Steve Trevor became the first man to crash land on Paradise Island. It was Diana who won the contest to be the champion to escort Trevor back to Man’s World and who would be the Amazonian ambassador to Man’s World. Armed in royal Amazonian armour with the Bracelets of Submission and the Lasso of Truth, Diana made herself known to Man’s World as Wonder Woman, one of the planet’s greatest and most powerful champions.

Or if that's too many words, these two pages will summarise Diana's origins and powers in a more compact way.

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Powers, Abilities & Gear

  • · Superhuman Strength
  • · Superhuman Durability
  • · Superhuman Speed
  • · Superhuman Agility & Reflexes
  • · Flight
  • · Healing Factor
  • · Animal Empathy
  • · Enhanced Senses
  • · Master Hand to Hand Combatant
  • · Weapons Master
  • · Bracelets of Submission
  • · Lasso of Truth

Strength/Striking Power

Although I’ve been hearing big things about how strong Jirou is, Wonder Woman is certainly no slouch in this department. Her raw physicals are bound to outstrip what Jirou has done. She’s tossed the Philosopher’s stone to the sun at FTL speeds (The Brave and the Bold #7)

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She’s picked up a giant alien tank and used it like a baseball bat to smash another one.

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She stopped a massive meteorite falling in midair with her strength (JLA/Titans#3)

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Even her moon and Earth pulling assisted feats are still a measure of her strength to her own credit but I’ll only discuss those if needs be. Needless to say, it's safe to assume she can physically overpower Jirou if they grappled it out.

Striking power is what’s needed to hurt an opponent though and Wonder Woman is more than capable of hurting Jirou with her blows. She swiftly overpowered Captain Nazi in a couple blows and the previous issue stated Nazi had gotten stronger than he had been before. Prior to this, Nazi had stalemated Black Adam into a double knockout on both sides so it’s a short but swift demonstration of why WW is not to be messed with (Wonder Woman #14-15,)

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She beats down Hercules, the same Hercules who can give Superman a bloody nose with an elbow (Wonder Woman Annual #1)

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Which supports the several statements where Wonder Woman is referred to as stronger than Hercules.

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And she one shotted a giant elemental snake god (Mayan I think) (Wonder Woman #40)

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Although strength isn’t the sole way Wonder Woman wins her fights, she can trade blows with the best of them in the DCU as I shall continue to show.

Durability

Since Jirou doesn’t use piercing weapons, Wonder Woman’s durability should be able to stack up to the blunt force and energy attacks you told me about Jirou in brief detail. She tanked a blow from Genocide, essentially WW’s own personal Doomsday that shredded an entire street city block from the force of her impact (Wonder Woman #32)

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She withstood blows from the giant Briareos, I mean look at that thing it’s massive (Wonder Woman #213)

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She shrugged off a punch from Power Girl that sent her from Washington DC to Canada (Wonder Woman #41)

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And she casually brushed off a Russian Intercontinental RS-24 Thermonuclear warhead whilst thinking about how almost ‘lovely’ the explosion was.

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According to MilitaryToday.com, it can carry at least 6 warheads each with a 100-300 kT yield each. Not too shabby for energy projection durability, and Diana’s durability is increased by her Bracers. I have no idea about the extent of Jirou’s durability obviously though so we’ll need to see who is the more durable based on the evidence.

Speed/Reflexes

Speed and reflexes for sure is one area I’m confident Diana will have a clear advantage as the debate goes on. Although Diana doesn’t blitz her foes as many times as Superman does, speed blitzing is a consistent tactic for her to use in character.

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  • · Blitzes OMACs leaving a crater and sending many flying into the air.
  • Blitzes Achilles.
  • Blitzes a group of mind controlled heroes.
  • Blitzes Genocide

So this is enough to show Diana’s speed blitzes are clearly in character and pack a wallop too. Obviously for characters of this power level, bullet and laser level feats will be child’s play and Diana has a reputation for blocking bullets with ease.

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  • Deflects bullets whilst blinded (Wonder Woman #215)
  • Stops a bullet fired at point blank range (Wonder Woman #6)
  • Casually blocks laser blasts.

Basic stuff I know, I still want to keep cards to my chest for now. But I submit that Diana’s most impressive reflex feats will enable her to make the most of an opportunity in a fight and will make the difference between victory or defeat in this battle.

Initial Considerations

I still need to sample what Jirou is capable of according to you but from our pre match discussions, Wonder Woman and Jirou should be decently matched opponents. Jirou probably has an edge in striking power if what you say is true but Diana should have the edge in raw strength, speed, and tactical thinking to say the least. She’s a warrior born and the finest fighter Themyscira has to offer. To quote Black Canary “You know why I like to watch you fight? It’s because so many heavy hitters, they just use their strength. That’s all they need. There’s no technique. No style.” In contrast, Wonder Woman is a heavy hitter powerhouse with years of combat training and has used her training in the heat of battle against the most dangerous and powerful beings in the DCU. Her mixture of strength, speed, skill, strategic thinking and use of gear in combat will enable her to overwhelm, outmanoeuver and incapacitate Jirou if she cannot overpower him with brute force or speed blitzing, both of which are also possible routes for victory.

I’ll save fighting skill, tactics and gear for the next post. For now, here are some handbook entries on Diana’s Bracelets of Submission and Lasso of Truth so you can understand the basics.

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Essentially the Bracers are made from Zeus’ Aegis shield and can deflect any force sent against them whilst the lasso is forged from the Girdle of Hestia and is the focus of Diana’s power from Hestia. Anyone bound by the lasso is sworn to tell only the truth and it is virtually indestructible same as the bracelets. Even a bloodlusted Superman can’t break out of it so Jirou won’t be going anywhere either.

Your turn @emperorthanos

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#10 Posted by Warlockmage (9387 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V (maybe i should have taken you up, would have been fun)

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#11 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: nice opener. I should be able to get a post in by Friday.

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#12 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio
Yeah this is the same guy. Not so friendly looking anymore is he.
Yeah this is the same guy. Not so friendly looking anymore is he.

Bio

Jiro is a legendary Gourmet Hunter who is well known as the Knocking Master in the Gourmet Age. Despite his elderly appearance, he is one of the strongest individuals in the world and was one of the three disciples of the legendary and revered "Gourmet God" Acacia. Despite technically being retired, he still, on occasions, went to hunt for ingredients for his own pleasure and like many other well known individuals, he sought the holy and phantasmal ingredient known as GOD.

Before he gained the title of Knocking Master and even before he trained with Acacia, Jiro held a more sinister title, the Rampaging Beast. He gained the title long before Acacia took him under his tutelage as Jiro was raised as a wild and brutal individual by one of the Eight Kings, the Wolf King Guinness.

Courtesy of the Toriko.wikia.com

Powers and Abilities

Now Jirou doesn't have a lot of showings, due to his immense power he only ends up fighting when the main Heroes aren't strong enough to fend of for themselves. However here are the gist of his abilities

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Speed
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Damage Negation
  • Transformation(His power was sealed by Acacia, he has to transform to be able to use it fully.)
  • Appetite energy blast.

Strength

Jirou's strength is probably his greatest asset. His raw power is incredible. His best feat is when he used grand knocking on the world.

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So here Jirou uses his grand knocking technique on the planet Earth. Through his knocking he is able to nearly stop the rotation of the entire planet of Toriko. Now what makes this very impressive is the fact that the Earth in Toriko is far larger than the real Earth. According to the Nitro Kaka the planet currently is around 659 times larger than before.

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Now as your can see she say the Earth is around 659 times bigger than before( I know I said Jupiter but now that I think about it, this is a lot bigger than Jupiter, sorry if this is a major problem going forward in this debate). Now when she said this, it had been a couple of years after Jirou used grand knocking. And since the Earth was continuously growing over a period of several million years, a couple of years isn't much of a difference. It is possible that this is exaggerated however it does show that the planet is quite a bit bigger than regular earth

Speed

Speed wise, Jirou doesn't have many feats and chances are Diana is faster, but for now I won't go to indpeth here and based of what you have shown so far I will post why he should be able to keep up with Diana during this fight.

Here Toriko, someone far weaker than Jirou right now was able to catch bullets with ease.

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Now this is pre time skip Toriko I believe and Jirou is even more powerful that post time skip.

However bullet timing means nothing at this level of power. A more relevant feat is when Gaoh, a beats that was invading the human world, was able to dodge lasers from satellites.

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These Lasers where fired forms satellites and reached the earth almost instantly

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Now Gaoh is a limb of the four beast, a creature that Jirou helped beat as a kid. Gaoh has a capture level of 127 and was able to do this. Jirou is considered on the same level as the 8 beats kings. The only recorded capture level for the Beats kings is the one recorded from a restrained Bambina, who had a capture level of 6000. Which should prove that Jirou is far faster than Gaoh.

Durability

Jirou is extremely durable, he was able to tank most of the hits thrown at him by the Blue Nitro during their battle. However should an attack be too much for him to deal with, Jirou is able to negate through the use of damage knocking.

Here he tanks some hit from the Blue Nitro

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During his fight with the Blue Nitro he tanked several of their hits. Which they believed should have been enough to knock his head off. The blue nitro are creatures that have been around for Million years after invading planet Earth. They are extremely powerful creatures that only the toughest of humans were able to match.

However if the attacks are too strong Jirou is able to use Damage Knocking

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Here Jirou uses damage knocking to negate the damage he takes from one of the Blue Nitro's attack. As you can see the Blue Nitro states that the attack was strong enough to rock the planet's mantle(which as proven before is 659 times the size of Earth). Meaning he is able to negate extremely powerful attacks through his damage knocking technique.

Initial Considerations

So based of your opener and my knowledge of what New 52 Diana can do(I know pre 52 is stronger).

  • Jirou should have the greater striking strength of the two of them considering his feats take place on a planet far bigger than Earth.
  • This should also mean that she won't be able to overcome him with Brute force alone.
  • Speed wise Jirou is capable of avoiding any bull rushes and reacting to Diana easily.
  • As for skill, Jirou is actually over 500 years old. He was raised by Guinness, one of the 8 beast kings(the strongest beasts on the planet) and was taught by Acacia. Over those 500 years he has been fighting beasts since he was a child.
  • As such he has a lot of combat experience, however most of it is against beasts and not people.
  • This is also why most of his equipment is catered to killing or caputing beasts so in that regard Diana has the upper hand however I would still need to see more of what the Lasso can do in combat.

@lvenger ok here is my opener. There are probably some grammatical errors here and there, so sorry about that.

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#14 Edited by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61@queen_marceline tagging you two because I thought you might be interested. Sorry if you aren't.

Definitely tag me for this. I haven't seen Lvenger debate in forever and i wanna see how he handles toriko characters.

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#16 Edited by makhai (3389 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#17 Posted by MysticMedivh (32250 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by deactivated-5a2b0053414c5 (8165 posts) - - Show Bio

Sure, you can tag me for this

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#19 Posted by NighThunder (7725 posts) - - Show Bio

It looks to me like A certain character here is in a different weight class than another one.

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#20 Posted by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#21 Posted by Jestersmiles (9826 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#22 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

It looks to me like A certain character here is in a different weight class than another one.

I'll bite. Who is stronger? If it's Jirou, then I'm sure Lvenger has something up his sleeve as I did tell him about the Planet being a lot bigger, plus WW has fough against people above her weightclass in the past. If it's Diana well then I will try something or the other to make this interesting.

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#23 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

It looks to me like A certain character here is in a different weight class than another one.

I have another way of arguing for victory but there's one loophole I will check in my rebuttal to see how EmperorThanos replies to it. If not, there's more than one way to skin a cat. That is if you're referring to me.

@emperorthanos Solid opener, I see what I've been told about Jirou's striking power is turning out to be true. It'll take longer for my next reply to be up due to essays but I plan to post it at some point next week, hopefully earlier in the week.

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#24 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Thanks and no problem. The next two weeks are busy for me anyway, so I will only be able to get a post up after that.

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#25 Edited by HitTheAssasin (8500 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#26 Posted by micah007123 (10836 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#27 Posted by NighThunder (7725 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:
@nighthunder said:

It looks to me like A certain character here is in a different weight class than another one.

I have another way of arguing for victory but there's one loophole I will check in my rebuttal to see how EmperorThanos replies to it. If not, there's more than one way to skin a cat. That is if you're referring to me.

@emperorthanos Solid opener, I see what I've been told about Jirou's striking power is turning out to be true. It'll take longer for my next reply to be up due to essays but I plan to post it at some point next week, hopefully earlier in the week.

Looking forward to it :p Lvenger debates are always great reads lol

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#28 Posted by termiteone4ever (12987 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting

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#29 Posted by Vertigo- (17846 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please and thanks!

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#30 Edited by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos:

Counters-Round 1

Strength

Jirou's strength is probably his greatest asset. His raw power is incredible. His best feat is when he used grand knocking on the world.

So here Jirou uses his grand knocking technique on the planet Earth.

Well I see what you said and what I was told about Jirou’s striking power was true, that is an unquestionably planetary feat of striking power and an impressive one at that. Even with my unfamiliarity with Toriko and manga in general, I wasn’t expecting something like this. However, I can still think of two counterpoints for this incredible feat. One, the Grand Knocking technique only stopped the rotation of the world for nearly an instant and there’s no reason to believe it affected those in the air, which is where Wonder Woman can be when Jirou uses Grand Knocking. Secondly, it did take a moment for Jirou to prepare this move and even if Wonder Woman doesn’t know what Jirou is doing, that instant can allow Wonder Woman to attack Jirou whilst he’s preparing his best move due to her superior speed, reflexes and tactical thinking.

Now as your can see she say the Earth is around 659 times bigger than before( I know I said Jupiter but now that I think about it, this is a lot bigger than Jupiter, sorry if this is a major problem going forward in this debate). Now when she said this, it had been a couple of years after Jirou used grand knocking. And since the Earth was continuously growing over a period of several million years, a couple of years isn't much of a difference. It is possible that this is exaggerated however it does show that the planet is quite a bit bigger than regular earth

So your argument is that it was at least Jupiter sized when Jirou performed his Grand Knocking and in this scan, it is directly confirmed that Toriko Earth is 659 times larger than the regular Earth? I’m still uncertain about whether this is exaggeration since I haven’t seen what the size of Toriko Earth looks like in context of our Earth or another planet, but even if it is an exaggeration, it's definitely a superior feat of raw striking power. Though I have demonstrated Wonder Woman's physical strength advantage, Jirou holds the striking power edge where it counts with that feat. So there’s no competition over who hits harder. Nonetheless, since I wish to check something about Damage Knocking, I’ll elaborate on Diana’s striking power with the intent of showing how it might still be able to tax Jirou’s Damage Knocking.

She overpowered Dark Mary Marvel, who was capable of easily beating Donna Troy and Kyle Rayner (w/ green ring) Yet here Diana blocks and overpowers Dark Mary into submission forcing Mary to infect Wonder Woman with the Morticoccous bacteria (Final Crisis #2)

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She beat Achilles in direct combat and was the first person to draw blood from him. For the record, Achilles’ own feats include one shotting the Eradicator, stalemating Geo-Force in a fight that ruined half a city and survived a few blows from a Doomsday clone so he’s no pushover by any means (Wonder Woman #36)

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She’s cracked and broken the constructs of an experienced Green Lantern, both with her own fists and by wrapping her lasso around her fist. Granted, it’s not as impressive as affecting the constructs of one of the human Lanterns like Hal or John or even Guy because they have feats, but it’s still a solid showing (Wonder Woman #19)

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And we can’t forget the obligatory bloodlusted Superman showings. These are from the Circe controlled Superman fight where Diana draws blood from, winds and knocks Superman away (Wonder Woman vol 2 #175)

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Although Diana can compensate in other ways for the very noticeable gap between her and Jirou’s striking power, her raw power is not to be taken likely even when compared to Jirou’s monumental blows.

Speed

However bullet timing means nothing at this level of power. A more relevant feat is when Gaoh, a beats that was invading the human world, was able to dodge lasers from satellites.

These Lasers where fired forms satellites and reached the earth almost instantly

Now Gaoh is a limb of the four beast, a creature that Jirou helped beat as a kid. Gaoh has a capture level of 127 and was able to do this. Jirou is considered on the same level as the 8 beats kings. The only recorded capture level for the Beats kings is the one recorded from a restrained Bambina, who had a capture level of 6000. Which should prove that Jirou is far faster than Gaoh.

The first scan is fine even if it is ABC logic since it follows the power creep of the Toriko universe. However, with this one, I’m unclear as to what exactly you’re trying to say. The obvious part is that Jirou can react to the same lasers Gaou dodged but it is kind of pointless to bring up a feat performed by a creature Jirou captured when it’s unknown whether speed was a factor in Jirou’s capture of this ‘Four Beast.’ Still, if it’s laser feats we're discussing, Wonder Woman has consistently reacted and blocked Superman’s heat vision in battle.

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  • Blocks multiple heat vision blasts.
  • Blocks rapid fire heat vision from Amazo.
  • Blocks a bloodlusted Superman’s heat vision.
  • Blocks a surprise heat vision blast Superman used to hit two duplicate Supergirls.

Given that Superman has also fired his heat vision at satellites rather instantaneously and shot high luminosity beams at the moon, it’s clear his heat vision can be fired at a rapid pace too, yet Wonder Woman can react to it no problem.

In any case, there’s more speed feats on offer. Diana has outraced and reacted to the sonic scream of Silver Swan, demonstrating hypersonic reactions and speed in this example.

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She’s also blitzed a White Martian into orbit in a matter of moments. It's an impressive speed feat since another White Martian was able to have a fight with Wally West circling the world many times in the time it took a vase to fall to the ground so Diana blitzing this White Martian is all the more impressive.

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And she’s fast enough to sneak up on Superman (Wonder Woman #219)

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Even without some of Wonder Woman's best speed feats, this evidence only widens the speed gap between Jirou and Wonder Woman. Though it won’t be a case of Diana blitzing a far slower and sluggish opponent (voters and readers can see Nighthunder vs IshmaelStrix’s Wonder Woman vs Thor CAV, it’s a terrific read), any advantage in physical stats is something fighters of our character’s level will take advantage of. And the speed edge will be a constant advantage for Diana due to how she employs its versatile uses in combat. Wonder Woman regularly opens up her battles with speed blitzes and consistently applies her evasiveness in battle to avoid attacks too. Against how hard Jirou can hit, Diana can and will utilise her speed for hit and run attacks to wear Jirou down or to avoid/interrupt his more powerful Knocking techniques. I have yet to see how Jirou can compensate in the speed department.

Durability

Jirou is extremely durable, he was able to tank most of the hits thrown at him by the Blue Nitro during their battle. However should an attack be too much for him to deal with, Jirou is able to negate through the use of damage knocking.

So Jirou can use Knocking to mitigate any damage he receives too, wonderful. If you can solidify your claim that this technique can stand up to Diana’s brute force, I guess that would solidify durability in your advantages as well, albeit perhaps to a lesser degree than the striking power gap.

During his fight with the Blue Nitro he tanked several of their hits. Which they believed should have been enough to knock his head off. The blue nitro are creatures that have been around for Million years after invading planet Earth. They are extremely powerful creatures that only the toughest of humans were able to match.

If I had only seen these scans alone and not the ones below, this wouldn’t look so impressive on the grounds that the Blue Nitro are millions of years old and therefore super tough. Diana has withstood blows from gods, monsters and aliens alike among many of which are considered the toughest and most powerful beings in the DCU too. But she's also withstood massive impacts, like when Diana pulled down a Khund airship from space crash landing it on a planet only to smile it off. (JLA: Heaven’s Ladder)

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She’s withstood multiple blows from OMAC Prime, an android with all the powers of the Justice League International, and only suffered from minor scratches at best by the end.

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In the event that you might bring up how easily Wonder Woman got KOed here, Wonder Woman had been altered by some reality manipulation where her history wasn’t the same so her powers and abilities aren’t at the level of the regular Pre Flashpoint Wonder Woman at her peak.

And she withstood attacks from a mind controlled Wally West (JLA Classified #17)

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Though durability may end up going to Jirou, I do not believe this is as big a gap as striking power was.

However if the attacks are too strong Jirou is able to use Damage Knocking

Here Jirou uses damage knocking to negate the damage he takes from one of the Blue Nitro's attack. As you can see the Blue Nitro states that the attack was strong enough to rock the planet's mantle(which as proven before is 659 times the size of Earth). Meaning he is able to negate extremely powerful attacks through his damage knocking technique.

Quite a useful technique for Jirou I see, but I have a query here. I was researching in a short Jirou respect thread to make up for my total unfamiliarity with this character and at one point, it stated that this technique, along with another one, takes a toll on Jirou’s body. Wouldn’t that mean that Jirou’s damage knocking might be able to be taxed if Wonder Woman punched or blitzed Jirou hard enough? I just need to question that in relation to Diana's best striking feats (which will be shown next) before knowing whether Wonder Woman's other means of winning will be the way to go.

Regarding your Initial Considerations

  • Jirou should have the greater striking strength of the two of them considering his feats take place on a planet far bigger than Earth.

That I can agree on, Wonder Woman’s striking feats are not enough to compete with Jirou’s in the way that her physical peer and superior Superman’s striking feats would match up to Jirou’s. However, that does not mean Diana’s striking power won’t be enough to harm Jirou even with the Damage Knocking, unless you can provide evidence of Jirou’s Damage Knocking protecting Jirou from greater harm than Wonder Woman can inflict? There are also other ways for Wonder Woman to win this fight that she's often used.

  • Speed wise Jirou is capable of avoiding any bull rushes and reacting to Diana easily.

I’ll need to see more evidence of Jirou’s speed before assessing whether he won’t be overwhelmed by Wonder Woman’s superior speed and reflexes. Moreover, her combat speed is not just the result of being blessed with Hermes’ speed, her reactions are ingrained in her muscle memory from applying her rigorous Amazonian combat training in conjunction with her own speed. It comes from this scan where Diana discusses this very thing (Justice League of America vol 2 #27)

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  • As for skill, Jirou is actually over 500 years old. He was raised by Guinness, one of the 8 beast kings(the strongest beasts on the planet) and was taught by Acacia. Over those 500 years he has been fighting beasts since he was a child.
  • As such he has a lot of combat experience, however most of it is against beasts and not people.

I was wondering what Jirou’s skill would be like, so I see his training is geared towards beast hunting rather than fighting human opponents. Wonder Woman’s training has been applied against both men and monsters, and although she does not have the years of experience Jirou has, she’s fought many monsters and men alike in her two decades of experience as Wonder Woman. She’ll be able to analyse Jirou effectively in the middle of combat even though they’ve just met. Like how she assesses Achilles somehow knowing how not to get hit in a blow for blow fight and switches to wrestling to throw his fighting style off (Wonder Woman vol 3 #31)

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It’s a simple example and may not be fancy Eastern kung fu or esoteric sounding names for martial arts moves but it’s an effective example all the same. Just as she analysed what Achilles was doing, so too will she be able to see that Jirou is using some form of pressure point fighting, even without any knowledge or understanding of Jirou’s knocking style. Tactical analysis FTW. Wonder Woman’s skill has made up for an equally strong/stronger opponent or number disadvantage on many occasions, the former against Power Girl and the latter against a group of Nazi grunts who had been physically enhanced to her strength level with the Captain Nazi serum.

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So Diana’s superior skill feats should allow her to fend off the physically superior Jirou whilst she finds a way to win.

The Lasso:

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  • This is also why most of his equipment is catered to killing or caputing beasts so in that regard Diana has the upper hand however I would still need to see more of what the Lasso can do in combat.

Of course, I'll explain the basics of the effectiveness of the lasso in combat and how it can incap Jirou. Many times the lasso has been Wonder Woman’s key to victory over brute force. I’ll save further explanation about how exactly the lasso works for later, but essentially the lasso has practically no limit to its length or strength. It can restrain a bloodlusted Superman and the God of War Ares himself.

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So once Diana gets the lasso bound around Jirou, he’s not breaking out. Even if he could, the way in which the lasso works will stop Jirou from trying to continue to fight.

Conclusion

  • Although striking power and durability go to Jirou, Wonder Woman has superior speed, reflexes, skill and gear to counter this.
  • Even if she can’t overcome Jirou with brute force alone, the lasso allows Diana a sure-fire way of winning by incapacitation.
  • Diana’s skill is more applicable against humanoids and she’s also shown great skill against monsters if Jirou turns out to have a monstrous beast form you’re hiding as a trump card.
  • Diana’s gear is better suited to combating human sized opponents even though her lasso can expand to any size, its indestructibility will be too much for Jirou to break is too when more powerful beings than him have failed to do so.
  • Though Jirou is definitely a raw power fighter here, Wonder Woman is the more versatile fighter. She can mix strength, speed, skill, tactics and her gear to make an effective strategy against Jirou.

Your turn @emperorthanos

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#31 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: hey so I'm going to busy this week and next week becuae of finals. So I will only be able to post by Saturday the 14th. Is that ok.

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#32 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Yeah that's fine, I can't reply until next Wednesday anyway.

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#34 Edited by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio
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Rebuttals

Striking

Well I see what you said and what I was told about Jirou’s striking power was true, that is an unquestionably planetary feat of striking power and an impressive one at that. Even with my unfamiliarity with Toriko and manga in general, I wasn’t expecting something like this. However, I can still think of two counterpoints for this incredible feat. One, the Grand Knocking technique only stopped the rotation of the world for nearly an instant and there’s no reason to believe it affected those in the air, which is where Wonder Woman can be when Jirou uses Grand Knocking. Secondly, it did take a moment for Jirou to prepare this move and even if Wonder Woman doesn’t know what Jirou is doing, that instant can allow Wonder Woman to attack Jirou whilst he’s preparing his best move due to her superior speed, reflexes and tactical thinking.

ok about grand knocking, Jirou doesn't nesscarily have to use on the planet itself and at 100% of his power released, Jirou can do it pretty much instantly.

During his fight with Neo, a monster that ate a supernova, Jirou tried to use damage knocking on him.

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Over here you can see Jirou using damage knocking on Neo himself. And he does it pretty much instantly as well. Now as you can see Neo ate the attack somehow, but Neo has eaten dying star as well so it that doesn't make it any less impressive. The point being that Jirou could use the attack directly on Diana instead of on Earth d he can do it almost instantly when using 100% of his power, as when he did it before, he was still sealed.

Also Jirou has another variation of knocking known as big bang knocking that he has used directly on his opponents however it isn't much different from grand knocking in terms of power.

So your argument is that it was at least Jupiter sized when Jirou performed his Grand Knocking and in this scan, it is directly confirmed that Toriko Earth is 659 times larger than the regular Earth? I’m still uncertain about whether this is exaggeration since I haven’t seen what the size of Toriko Earth looks like in context of our Earth or another planet, but even if it is an exaggeration, it's definitely a superior feat of raw striking power. Though I have demonstrated Wonder Woman's physical strength advantage, Jirou holds the striking power edge where it counts with that feat. So there’s no competition over who hits harder. Nonetheless, since I wish to check something about Damage Knocking, I’ll elaborate on Diana’s striking power with the intent of showing how it might still be able to tax Jirou’s Damage Knocking.

No what I want to say that Jirou used planet knocking on Earth a couple of years before it was stated that the Earth had grown to be 659 times larger than before. This is the same planet Earth that is constantly growing over a period of a million years so when Jirou performed that feat the earth was smaller, However since the only a couple of years passed the size of the Earth would not have grown too much.

Although Diana can compensate in other ways for the very noticeable gap between her and Jirou’s striking power, her raw power is not to be taken likely even when compared to Jirou’s monumental blows.

Fair enough. But I think we have both come to the conclusion that Jirou has the advantage in this area of the battle. I will get into the extent of his damage knocking abilities in the durability sections.

Speed

The first scan is fine even if it is ABC logic since it follows the power creep of the Toriko universe. However, with this one, I’m unclear as to what exactly you’re trying to say. The obvious part is that Jirou can react to the same lasers Gaou dodged but it is kind of pointless to bring up a feat performed by a creature Jirou captured when it’s unknown whether speed was a factor in Jirou’s capture of this ‘Four Beast.’ Still, if it’s laser feats we're discussing, Wonder Woman has consistently reacted and blocked Superman’s heat vision in battle.

Thats fair enough but what there is also the point where Jirou is considered a beasts himself on the level of the 8 beasts kings. As can be seen in these two scans

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  • Now in the first scan, we see that Jirou is considered to be a being as powerful as the 8 kings.
  • And in the second scan, Guinness who is one of the 8 kings recalls the time he fought Jirou. Now Guinness actuall raised Jiriou when he was a boy which is why Jirou is able to use his abilities.

Both these scans are here to prove that Jirou is a beast on the level of the 8 kings. Now lets see how fast the 8 kings are.

First we are going to look at Bambina, the problem child of the 8 kings

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Here he dodges Coco's mold spears that all move at close to light speed. And Babina is able to to move fast enough to dodge every single one of them. This would put Babimina at lightspeed or close to it as he is able to dodge all of them.

Now the argument could be made that Bambina the only fast one amongst the 8 kings. But I don't believe that this is true.

Toriko during his second fight with Babina was at least able perceive his movement and dodge his attacks

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As you can see here, Toriko manages to dodge Bambina's tail swing that reaches the space in an instant. So while Toriko is probably not as fast as Bambina he is certainly comparable. And despite this Toriko and even the other 4HK are still not yet on the same level as Acacia's diciples which means that Jirou is still faster than him. And on top of the fact that Jirou is comparable to the 8 beast kings. I would say that Jirou is close to the speed of light.

Even without some of Wonder Woman's best speed feats, this evidence only widens the speed gap between Jirou and Wonder Woman. Though it won’t be a case of Diana blitzing a far slower and sluggish opponent (voters and readers can see Nighthunder vs IshmaelStrix’s Wonder Woman vs Thor CAV, it’s a terrific read), any advantage in physical stats is something fighters of our character’s level will take advantage of. And the speed edge will be a constant advantage for Diana due to how she employs its versatile uses in combat. Wonder Woman regularly opens up her battles with speed blitzes and consistently applies her evasiveness in battle to avoid attacks too. Against how hard Jirou can hit, Diana can and will utilise her speed for hit and run attacks to wear Jirou down or to avoid/interrupt his more powerful Knocking techniques. I have yet to see how Jirou can compensate in the speed department.

Now I admit that Wonder Woman is faster, but based on what I have shown, I feel Jirou has enough speed to compensate and avoid being blitz from the start of this fight.

Durability

So Jirou can use Knocking to mitigate any damage he receives too, wonderful. If you can solidify your claim that this technique can stand up to Diana’s brute force, I guess that would solidify durability in your advantages as well, albeit perhaps to a lesser degree than the striking power gap.

Yeah, his knocking abilities are extremely versatile. I will show you why he should be able to use damage knocking on all of Diana's physical attacks

Though durability may end up going to Jirou, I do not believe this is as big a gap as striking power was.

To be honest, they are probably even in terms of durability with Jirou only being superior through damage knocking.

Quite a useful technique for Jirou I see, but I have a query here. I was researching in a short Jirou respect thread to make up for my total unfamiliarity with this character and at one point, it stated that this technique, along with another one, takes a toll on Jirou’s body. Wouldn’t that mean that Jirou’s damage knocking might be able to be taxed if Wonder Woman punched or blitzed Jirou hard enough? I just need to question that in relation to Diana's best striking feats (which will be shown next) before knowing whether Wonder Woman's other means of winning will be the way to go.

OK so I will explain damage knocking. When Jirou receives an attacks, he uses damage knocking to stop the attack. Which means that he has still been hit by the attack but the attack has been stopped before he can feel it's effects. This means that if someone were to undo the damage knocking, he would feel the attacks again. Thats what it meant by taking a toll because should someone undo the damage knocking on Jirou he would feel every single attack he has ever used the technique on at once. And Spoilers for any Toriko fans who haven't caught up, that's how Jirou ends up dying.

During his fight with Neo/Acacia, the damage knocking is all undone. (you can also read Acacia's explanation of Damage Knocking)

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Now here you can see that all the damage knocking is undone by Acacia and so Jirou dies. Now how does this help my argument, well first of all Acacia was the one who though Jirou everything about knocking(seen in the first scan) which is why he was able to undo it. Diana doesn't know anything about knocking so she won't be able to undo the damage. Secondly you can see that Acacia's say that Jirou has used damage kncoking on countless number of planet busting attacks. Which makes sense because Jirou only uses damage knocking on planetary attacks such as the mantle shot beucase other attacks aren't powerful enough to hurt. This would mean that Jirou can use damage knocking on planetary(his planet) attacks. Which should prove that he can do it against Diana as many times as needed.

Other points

I was wondering what Jirou’s skill would be like, so I see his training is geared towards beast hunting rather than fighting human opponents. Wonder Woman’s training has been applied against both men and monsters, and although she does not have the years of experience Jirou has, she’s fought many monsters and men alike in her two decades of experience as Wonder Woman. She’ll be able to analyse Jirou effectively in the middle of combat even though they’ve just met. Like how she assesses Achilles somehow knowing how not to get hit in a blow for blow fight and switches to wrestling to throw his fighting style off (Wonder Woman vol 3 #31)

However I must sys the beats he has hunted aren't just wild animals. Some of them are actually pretty smart creatures that have their own figthing style. However that Jirou isn't going to study his opponent and does kind of behave like a wild animal when he fights. But I'm interesting in seeing how big of a difference that is because she doesn't really have a way of harming him due to damage knocking.

Of course, I'll explain the basics of the effectiveness of the lasso in combat and how it can incap Jirou. Many times the lasso has been Wonder Woman’s key to victory over brute force. I’ll save further explanation about how exactly the lasso works for later, but essentially the lasso has practically no limit to its length or strength. It can restrain a bloodlusted Superman and the God of War Ares himself.

hmm ok, so this is interesting, it does seem to be pretty powerfu seeing how it stopped superman however whether superman is strong than Jirou is debatable. But yeah I would like to know what you meant by the way it works.? Is not just an extremely strong rope or is there something else behind it aside from it's truth telling properties. I wold also like to know if this is Diana's go to method when starting a fight because I feel she is far more likely to go into a head on brawl against Jirou as she has no knowledge on him. Which would invariable lead to her demise.

Additional info

I do believe that I mentioned Jirou energy based capabilities during our discussion in the CaV. So I thought I would bring it up now. So hee really only has one attack which he learnt from Guinness. Which is the Guinness punch.(Yup his only technique that is a form of Knocking)

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Here he uses the Guinness punch against Joa. If you notice in the first scan, the old lady makes like a circle or a road for the punch to follow. This is because the attack could end up destroying to planet if it hit it. This is attack is also pretty fast and even if Diana could dodge, Jirou could use it at close range as a punch.

Conclusion

  • I agree with you that Jirou has superior stricking and durability whilst Diana has the the better speed, skill and gear
  • However I do feel Jirou has just about enough speed to ensure that Diana can't blitz him.
  • Moreover her speed and skill won't help her too much if she can't hurt since he can basically use.
  • Also while, Diana is durable, Jirou's striking is extremely powerful and I believe is enough to overcome her durability after multiple strikes. Especially since he can use damage knocking directly on here instead of on the Earth and on top of that he can use the Guinness punch as well if he needs to.
  • Diana's lasso of truth is tricky, however I don't think it is her a go to attack (unless of course you can prove it) and she is far more likely to go into a head on brawl as she doesn't know her opponent's abilities.

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#35 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: here got my post up earlier than expected.

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#36 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: I'll have a reply up by tomorrow if that's OK, just celebrating the end of my university degree today.

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#37 Posted by GhostRavage (14945 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Forgot to congratulate you mate, welcome to the professional world. :)

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#38 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: Thanks mate, I'm sure it'll be even more stressful from here onwards :P

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#39 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: yeah that's fine. And congratulations.

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#40 Edited by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio
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2nd Round of Counters

Striking

During his fight with Neo, a monster that ate a supernova, Jirou tried to use damage knocking on him.

Over here you can see Jirou using damage knocking on Neo himself. And he does it pretty much instantly as well. Now as you can see Neo ate the attack somehow, but Neo has eaten dying star as well so it that doesn't make it any less impressive. The point being that Jirou could use the attack directly on Diana instead of on Earth d he can do it almost instantly when using 100% of his power, as when he did it before, he was still sealed.

Decent reply to my first counter point about aerial avoidance of Jirou's planetary spanning Grand Knocking. But he has to make direct contact with Diana first to apply the effects of Grand Knocking. And considering her ability to fly which Jirou does not possess and her speed, there are still ways Wonder Woman can avoid being on the receiving end of that potent Grand Knocking. Were Jirou able to hit her with Grand Knocking though, I can still show Diana being able to block them by raising her bracelets in time, which not only block physical attacks along with ranged weapons, but also generate a small energy shield which protects Diana from harm, as demonstrated here (further info and evidence of the bracelet's defensive properties will be provided towards the end of my post)

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So Diana has both evasive and defensive options for countering the raw power of Jirou's Grand Knocking.

No what I want to say that Jirou used planet knocking on Earth a couple of years before it was stated that the Earth had grown to be 659 times larger than before. This is the same planet Earth that is constantly growing over a period of a million years so when Jirou performed that feat the earth was smaller, However since the only a couple of years passed the size of the Earth would not have grown too much.

It's still notable context about the nature of Jirou's original Grand Knocking feat I believe since the Earth will have grown to a bigger size than it was before. But you bring up some fair points that I won't flat out deny.

Moving on, your further explanation of Jirou's Damage Knocking is certainly a well rounded defence, it would seem Wonder Woman probably won't be able to overtax Jirou's Grand Knocking by brute strength in the way other powerhouses like Superman or Thor would. Nonetheless, I still feel obliged to show the best of Wonder Woman's striking and why Jirou will at least need to use Damage Knocking to nullify the injuries he'd otherwise sustain from Wonder Woman.

From the more well known Superman vs Wonder Woman fight at the end of the Sacrifice story, Wonder Woman causes much clearer damage to a bloodlusted Superman than in Wonder Woman #175 by barely holding back, knocking him to the ground, causing craters in the ground and leaving Superman holding his ribs in pain (Wonder Woman #219)

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She held her own against the alien Konvikt whilst Superman worked with Batman to develop a gas capable of knocking him out and succeeded in winding him with a gut punch. Considering that Konvikt had defeated John Stewart, Firestorm, Wally West along with the rest of the Justice League and withstood blows from Superman that, by his own admission, were hard enough to shatter small planets, I'd say that's an impressive feat of raw strength (Trinity #5)

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Lastly, Diana has punched Batman w/Superman's powers from a low Earth orbit to the moon (Superman/Batman #56)

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The distance from the Earth to the Moon is approximately 238,855 miles/384,000 km and although Batman was already in low orbit when Wonder Woman hit him, that only shaves about a couple hundred miles off the distance at best.

Fair enough. But I think we have both come to the conclusion that Jirou has the advantage in this area of the battle. I will get into the extent of his damage knocking abilities in the durability sections.

We have I suppose. But being a close second behind Superman in strength and striking power, Diana is at least going to force Jirou to use Damage Knocking if she hits him with her best shots as I believe it's safe to say her most impressive strikes are much more powerful than what you have shown Jirou to tank without using Damage Knocking.

Speed

  • Now in the first scan, we see that Jirou is considered to be a being as powerful as the 8 kings.
  • And in the second scan, Guinness who is one of the 8 kings recalls the time he fought Jirou. Now Guinness actuall raised Jiriou when he was a boy which is why Jirou is able to use his abilities.
  • But as powerful as which of the Beast Kings though? Isn't there some kind of hierarchy for each of the Beast Kings.
  • Interesting to hear that, but I remain slightly sceptical that this gives him full access to being on Guinness' level, including speed which is the subject of discussion for this section

First we are going to look at Bambina, the problem child of the 8 kings

Here he dodges Coco's mold spears that all move at close to light speed. And Babina is able to to move fast enough to dodge every single one of them. This would put Babimina at lightspeed or close to it as he is able to dodge all of them.

Now the argument could be made that Bambina the only fast one amongst the 8 kings. But I don't believe that this is true.

That argument can be made from the way I see your Bambina evidence. Although it undoubtedly shows how fast Bambina is, and I am somewhat familiar from a few of threads I've seen on the battle boards, that logic does not apply exclusively to all of the Beast Kings IMO. One such reason that can be given is that Bambina was depicted as exhibiting those great speed feats and Jirou has not fought this particular beast king in a test of speed or other contest. Moreover, if it's light speed feats that are to be compared, Wonder Woman has an exclusive one to her that is a doozy of a lightspeed feat.

Toriko during his second fight with Babina was at least able perceive his movement and dodge his attacks

As you can see here, Toriko manages to dodge Bambina's tail swing that reaches the space in an instant. So while Toriko is probably not as fast as Bambina he is certainly comparable. And despite this Toriko and even the other 4HK are still not yet on the same level as Acacia's diciples which means that Jirou is still faster than him. And on top of the fact that Jirou is comparable to the 8 beast kings. I would say that Jirou is close to the speed of light.

There is an explicit mention on the page which indicates Toriko might have gotten lucky in dodging Bambina's swing. I wouldn't dispute the obvious gap between the 4HK and Acacia's disciples within the Toriko verse, but to put it in Toriko power terms, Wonder Woman has defeated beings on the Heavenly King's level and held her own against foes at least as powerful as Acacia's disciples. And when it comes to her speed, and especially reflexes, there are several which clearly put her above lightspeed.

For instance, Wonder Woman was fast enough to get the lasso around Amazo before he finished saying 'me' and tied the rope around his body before Roy Harper could blink (Justice League of America #6)

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Jirou would need to be on his extreme guard to avoid letting himself be tied up at superspeed like this. She was fast enough to deflect a missile at Cheetah's exact location before she could dodge it, and Cheetah had had her speed boosted by Zoom during the Pre Infinite Crisis period (Wonder Woman #29)

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And she did that without the lasso, which has enabled her to tag someone even faster than Barbara Minerva. Diana's best reaction feats are those that make her one of the few Justice Leaguers to consistently tag (even if it wouldn't be all the time and an absolute all out) Wally West, someone much faster than the speed of light with the reactions to match.

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  • Scan 1: Tags an in character Wally during a training session fight by sensing the shifts in air currents due to her being blind. I use it as the lowest base to work up from.
  • Scans 2-3: Tags a mind controlled Wally West by recognising the pattern of his blitzes and reacting accordingly. I've made sure to include the previous scan where Diana notices the starfish pattern of Wally's attacks, instead of just the tagging Wally page, but I maintain Diana did require the necessary reaction time to land her hit on him.
  • Scan 3 - Lassos an out of control Wally who'd lost control of his speed with her lasso.

Even Superman hasn't consistently reacted to Wally in the way Wonder Woman has, so that trumps Bambina and the Beast King's speed examples.

Now I admit that Wonder Woman is faster, but based on what I have shown, I feel Jirou has enough speed to compensate and avoid being blitz from the start of this fight.

It depends since neither character is aware of what the other can do but even if that were the case, I've more than compensated by showing Diana has the greater speed and reflexes to make the winning opportunities count.

Durability

To be honest, they are probably even in terms of durability with Jirou only being superior through damage knocking.

I would agree with that but I do feel it's a case of Diana having several more impressive durability feats due to her not having a Damage Knocking ability. She's tanked a punch from a Kryptonian powered Batman that sent her from the moon back to Earth, and I've already cited the approx. distance between us and the moon.

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She's taken hits from the Hawaiian Goddess Pele, who "punched harder than Kal" according to Diana. Obviously statements alone should be questioned and queried as is my debating policy, but this is in conjunction with a direct showing, and is backed up by Diana having fought a mind controlled/all out Superman several times so the statement itself can be backed up (Wonder Woman #35)

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Furthermore, Diana's own durability is boosted by her bracelets which can create a forcefield enabling her to withstand attacks that might be capable of injuring or KOing her. For instance, when Wonder Woman cut open an Imperiex Probe without raising her bracelets, she was KOed and injured by the explosion (where each probe has a portion of the original Imperiex's power, the power of the Big Bang) When she raised her bracelets against another probe explosion, she remained conscious from it.

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Her bracelets are what should help to balance the durability scales more between Jirou's Damage Knocking.

OK so I will explain damage knocking. When Jirou receives an attacks, he uses damage knocking to stop the attack. Which means that he has still been hit by the attack but the attack has been stopped before he can feel it's effects. This means that if someone were to undo the damage knocking, he would feel the attacks again. Thats what it meant by taking a toll because should someone undo the damage knocking on Jirou he would feel every single attack he has ever used the technique on at once. And Spoilers for any Toriko fans who haven't caught up, that's how Jirou ends up dying.

Thank you for the explanation on Damage Knocking and for being willing to go into spoiler territory, hopefully the Toriko reader voters are caught up. I understand the workings of it loud and clear if it's as if you described.

Now here you can see that all the damage knocking is undone by Acacia and so Jirou dies. Now how does this help my argument, well first of all Acacia was the one who though Jirou everything about knocking(seen in the first scan) which is why he was able to undo it. Diana doesn't know anything about knocking so she won't be able to undo the damage. Secondly you can see that Acacia's say that Jirou has used damage kncoking on countless number of planet busting attacks. Which makes sense because Jirou only uses damage knocking on planetary attacks such as the mantle shot beucase other attacks aren't powerful enough to hurt. This would mean that Jirou can use damage knocking on planetary(his planet) attacks. Which should prove that he can do it against Diana as many times as needed.

Well on the one hand I can't dispute your explanation of how Damage Knocking works, Wonder Woman can't overpower it without knowledge of the art of Knocking. However, on the countless planet busting attacks point, it might be argued that not all of Jirou's uses of Damage Knocking were on planet busting attacks, but on a great number of lesser attacks which adds up to the countless planet busting statement Acacia makes in your scans. Although Jirou can use it against Diana as much as he needs to, there is still a loophole Wonder Woman could exploit without knowing about how Damage Knocking works. I had previously inquired with DeathHero61 about how Damage Knocking works and he kindly provided me with the scans you've shown here, though obviously you would need to cite them anyway to prove your side of the debate lol. Anyway, the main points of interest are when Jirou has been blitzed before fighting those Blue Nitro guys you cited and when Acacia stated Jirou wouldn't be able to use Damage Knocking in time to reverse what he'd done.

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I know I'm kind of going back on what I said in the striking section but based on what happened in the Toriko manga itself, there's still the argument that Diana can speedblitz Jirou before he can activate Damage Knocking, not just with a bullrush but with a multi-hit blitz like this.

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Considering the White Martian and Cheetah blitzes, there's a sufficient amount of evidence to support my claim. But if you counter this one too and prove Diana can't KO Jirou, I have thought of a way that she can kill him and bypass the Damage Knocking.

Skill/Lasso

However I must sys the beats he has hunted aren't just wild animals. Some of them are actually pretty smart creatures that have their own figthing style. However that Jirou isn't going to study his opponent and does kind of behave like a wild animal when he fights. But I'm interesting in seeing how big of a difference that is because she doesn't really have a way of harming him due to damage knocking.

I believe there to be a noticeable difference between the two due to the more well rounded and broader training Diana received from the Amazons. I doubt the Beast Kings could teach Jirou to fight blinded like Diana did against the Gorgon Medusa to protect her from her gaze and to also defeat Medusa via decapitation after literally blinding herself with the venom from one of Medusa's snakes:

Wonder Woman vs Medusa

She stalemated Beowulf whilst totally powerless on her fighting skill alone. Additionally, she won the contest held by the Amazons to return Steve Trevor to Man's World proving herself to be the best fighter amongst the Amazons. And she received training from the martial artist I-Ching,whilst this did happen Pre Crisis, there is a Post Crisis reference to her having received training from I-Ching here. You're free to discount the Pre Crisis scans if you feel they aren't canon, but under I-Ching, Diana learned basically how to be a peak human via martial arts alone along with learning karate, kung fu and judo in months compared to the years it would usually take to learn these fighting arts.

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On this basis, I feel the comparison between the two is of Jirou being a more specific niche kind of fighter whereas Diana has the training and demonstration of skill to be the more well rounded and adaptable fighter who I've already shown using her fighting skills. Which became even more effective when combined with her gear.

hmm ok, so this is interesting, it does seem to be pretty powerfu seeing how it stopped superman however whether superman is strong than Jirou is debatable. But yeah I would like to know what you meant by the way it works.? Is not just an extremely strong rope or is there something else behind it aside from it's truth telling properties. I wold also like to know if this is Diana's go to method when starting a fight because I feel she is far more likely to go into a head on brawl against Jirou as she has no knowledge on him. Which would invariable lead to her demise.

Sensible requests, I shall oblige as such. First though, it's only debatable as to whether Jirou can hit harder than Superman, Superman is physically stronger than Jirou by a landslide. You can't punch your way out of being tied up, you have to break the knot and Superman is completely unable to do that when he's bound by the lasso. Jirou won't have better luck. Addressing your requests, I intended to show the additional properties of the lasso in this section. It's common knowledge that the lasso is virtually unbreakable and forces those bound by it to tell the truth. But a more esoteric property of the lasso is its ability to basically transport whoever's bound by it into a black void of the soul. It can literally connect to the very soul of anyone bound by the lasso to learn the absolute truth about them. An example of what I mean is when Wonder Woman uses her lasso on Captain Nazi to see that his father was a pimp and beat Nazi as a child (Wonder Woman #15)

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If Diana wanted to learn more about Jirou's past and who he is, she can easily learn about his time as the Rampaging Beast (which according to the Toriko wiki he's not very proud of) and try and empaphise with him to convince him to stop fighting. But for some reason if that doesn't work, Wonder Woman can just use the lasso to command him to stop fighting. She used the lasso to command an alien to send a message to her allies (Wonder Woman #44)

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The only exceptions to the lasso's power is beings without a soul or non-sentient creatures like Doomsday. Given that Jirou does have a soul and is sentient, he can't resist the lasso's power. In regards to your second question, Wonder Woman regularly uses the lasso in her fights rather than just brawl it out. Not only can it be used to end the fight, but she can also use the lasso skillfully in combat to great effect. Note the use of her lasso in this fight with some enhanced gorillas where Diana opens combat with lasso in hand, ties the lasso around their hands, uses the lasso to overturn their momentum, ties it around their necks and to fling them around like a shotput.

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I can very well see her using the lasso to tie up Jirou's fists and keep them from landing once she sees how hard he can hit. It's often in Diana's tactical inclination to try and find weaknesses in her opponent's strengths. She's freely used the lasso mid combat in these scans too.

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Wonder Woman has used the lasso against fodder and powerhouse alike so she won't just brawl it out with Jirou, especially not when she realises how hard he hits. Now that it's clear Diana has many judicious uses of her lasso, that makes it even more viable that she can use it to counteract Jirou's Damage Knocking. As Jirou indulges in the Japanese trope of yelling out his attack names whilst performing them, Wonder Woman will clearly catch on from Jirou yelling Damage Knocking that this technique prevents him from being harmed. As such, she has been shown to be willing to use more lethal measures on difficult opponents, and one way Damage Knocking could be bypassed is if Diana uses the lasso to choke or garrote him. It can stop planetary attacks but there isn't enough proof shown that it could stop Diana from snapping his neck.

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When it comes to striking strength, Jirou has the discernible edge but in terms of physical strength, WW is the physical superior and could choke Jirou out or pull hard enough to embed the lasso into Jirou's neck. Diana does not have as strict a code against killing as Superman or Batman, she is willing to take a life to end a battle.

Additional Points

I do believe that I mentioned Jirou energy based capabilities during our discussion in the CaV. So I thought I would bring it up now. So hee really only has one attack which he learnt from Guinness. Which is the Guinness punch.(Yup his only technique that is a form of Knocking)

Here he uses the Guinness punch against Joa. If you notice in the first scan, the old lady makes like a circle or a road for the punch to follow. This is because the attack could end up destroying to planet if it hit it. This is attack is also pretty fast and even if Diana could dodge, Jirou could use it at close range as a punch.

Unlike with Grand Knocking, I don't see this as nearly as dangerous to Diana as you might think. Her bracelets have blocked powerful energy attacks before and I believe she'll be capable of blocking Jirou's Guinness Punch.

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  • Scan 1: Blocks Nekron's dark lightning.
  • Scan 2-3: Shields herself from a Green Lantern construct and Amazo's Green Lantern construct respectively.
  • Scan 4: Deflects Darkseid's Omega Beams
  • Scans 5-6 (right to left) Deflects the Quantum Zealot's energy blasts that were injuring Martian Manhunter.
  • Scan 7: Protects Diana from Imperiex Probe explosion.

Also, you'll see in the Pele scans that Wonder Woman has a ranged attack too. Her bracelets can project 'Aegis lightning' as they're made from the Aegis shield of Zeus and Zeus unlocked the code for that particular power of the bracelets.

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Conclusions

  • Whilst Jirou's superior striking is clear, Wonder Woman's versatile gear provides the suitable counter.
  • Diana has blitzed White Martians, Cheetah, Amazo, snuck up on Superman and has reacted to Wally West, I believe the speed gap will make the difference for Diana's ability to blitz Jirou in this fight.
  • Her speed and skill can allow her to fend off Jirou long enough to either incapacitate him via the lasso or choke him out with it.
  • Although Jirou can hurt WW with his blows and Grand Knocking, he needs to either hit Diana directly or hit her when she doesn't raise her bracelets in time. But the Guinness punch can be easily blocked by the bracelets.
  • Her lasso is indeed tricky and is the key to many of Diana's victories. It's a regular staple of Diana's fighting style and is often the way in which Diana ends her fights. Jirou will be powerless to break the lasso or resist its power. And Damage Knocking might not work against less conventional strategies such as targeting vital areas of the body and breaking them.
  • Thus, Diana doesn't have to KO or kill Jirou, she can win by incapacitation.
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#41 Edited by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos My third post is up, do you want to do one more each after your third post? Or two more before votes?

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#42 Edited by Killerwasp (17475 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Great Cav so far, just a shame you and PrinceAragorn couldn't do a WW vs Naruto Argument, would of been hilarious.

@emperorthanos Doing great so far for not so well known character man keep it up!

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#43 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: I'm very unfamiliar about Naruto and how the Chakra/Sage art abilities work so that would have been a disastrous choice lol. I tend to avoid Naruto debates, even the more inflammatory DBZ threads are easier as I understand DBZ.

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#44 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by dawnone (7265 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn reading this just makes me think how i should really pick up toriko tv4.

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#46 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Sounds fine, will probably be a summary post for the most part.

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#47 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: hey sorry, I haven't posted yet. Been a bit busy. I should have my post up by tonight or tomorrow afternoon.

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#48 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: So I see, that's fine, there's no real time limit with this one anyway.

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#49 Edited by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters

Just going to counters in this post and any final poitns will in be in my last post.

Striking

Decent reply to my first counter point about aerial avoidance of Jirou's planetary spanning Grand Knocking. But he has to make direct contact with Diana first to apply the effects of Grand Knocking. And considering her ability to fly which Jirou does not possess and her speed, there are still ways Wonder Woman can avoid being on the receiving end of that potent Grand Knocking. Were Jirou able to hit her with Grand Knocking though, I can still show Diana being able to block them by raising her bracelets in time, which not only block physical attacks along with ranged weapons, but also generate a small energy shield which protects Diana from harm, as demonstrated here (further info and evidence of the bracelet's defensive properties will be provided towards the end of my post)

While Diana maybe be able to dodge the majority of Jirou's attacks. Jirou doesn't need to tag here too many times to damage her. She has been tagged by people that don't have the better speed feats thatn Jirou such as Ares, Doomsday, First Born.

Here is just one example during the Infinite Crisis #1 I believe where she charges at Mongul and gets knocked away.

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As you can see in this scan, she charges at Mongul and gets knocked away by him pretty easily. Now I am not saying Jirou is on Mongul's level but Jirou is probably superior in terms of striking. But this shows that Wonder Woman can be tagged by slower foes than her. And in a random encounter, it is likely for her to charge into battle that would allow Jirou to get a strike on her.

And yeah it really depends on how strong those Bracelets defensive properties are as I have heard they are unbreakable but that would be an NLF.

It's still notable context about the nature of Jirou's original Grand Knocking feat I believe since the Earth will have grown to a bigger size than it was before. But you bring up some fair points that I won't flat out deny.

Yeah the Earth would have grown. But the size difference between the time Jirou performed and when the Earth size was stated would be very small and so the feats still remains as impressive. Especially since that Jirou was being sealed.

Moving on, your further explanation of Jirou's Damage Knocking is certainly a well rounded defence, it would seem Wonder Woman probably won't be able to overtax Jirou's Grand Knocking by brute strength in the way other powerhouses like Superman or Thor would. Nonetheless, I still feel obliged to show the best of Wonder Woman's striking and why Jirou will at least need to use Damage Knocking to nullify the injuries he'd otherwise sustain from Wonder Woman.

Jirou really only uses damage knocking for attacks that are planetary on his planet eg. the mantle shot that rocked the Earth to it's core. Wonder Woman would need to be using her most powerful attacks to force Jirou to use the technique.

From the more well known Superman vs Wonder Woman fight at the end of the Sacrifice story, Wonder Woman causes much clearer damage to a bloodlusted Superman than in Wonder Woman #175 by barely holding back, knocking him to the ground, causing craters in the ground and leaving Superman holding his ribs in pain (Wonder Woman #219)

I don't really see how this would make Jirou need to use damage Knocking . Superman didn't really seem to hurt, he held his ribs and thats about it. And creating craters isn't that impressive.

The Mantle shot used by NEWS had a much large effect

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As you can see. The attack rocked the earth matnle and created a much large side effect after Jirou used the damage Knocking. Meaning despite the punch being negated those effects still occurred.

She held her own against the alien Konvikt whilst Superman worked with Batman to develop a gas capable of knocking him out and succeeded in winding him with a gut punch. Considering that Konvikt had defeated John Stewart, Firestorm, Wally West along with the rest of the Justice League and withstood blows from Superman that, by his own admission, were hard enough to shatter small planets, I'd say that's an impressive feat of raw strength (Trinity #5)

But in those scans, she did pretty much nothing to him. She knocked him around a little bit while she was stalling for Superman, but Konvict seemingly took no damage from her hits. In the last scan all she did was make him stop holding his breath, so he could take in the gas that was going to make him sleep. Punching someone and doing no damage to them isn't really impressive.

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The distance from the Earth to the Moon is approximately 238,855 miles/384,000 km and although Batman was already in low orbit when Wonder Woman hit him, that only shaves about a couple hundred miles off the distance at best.

I suppose this would force Jirou to use damage knocking. But she was only able to do this by getting a drop on Batman in th first place. And that attack isn't really planetary atleast not on Jirou's scale. So she won't be troubling Jirou too much if that is the best she had.

We have I suppose. But being a close second behind Superman in strength and striking power, Diana is at least going to force Jirou to use Damage Knocking if she hits him with her best shots as I believe it's safe to say her most impressive strikes are much more powerful than what you have shown Jirou to tank without using Damage Knocking.

Fair enough, I am not going to dispute the fact that Jirou would require damage knocking to survive Diana's more powerful strikes. However in a random encounter she won't be using her most powerful attacks right from the start.And she doesn't have the consist striking power to over come his damage knocking.

Speed

  • But as powerful as which of the Beast Kings though? Isn't there some kind of hierarchy for each of the Beast Kings.
  • Interesting to hear that, but I remain slightly sceptical that this gives him full access to being on Guinness' level, including speed which is the subject of discussion for this section
  • Not really any heirachy. They are all just 8 different beasts kings that each rule their own area. They are all on similar level of power and are the strongest beings on the planet. It's because their power is so similar, the gourmet is pretty balanced. So being on similar level as them would suggest they operate on the same power.
  • Maybe but the fact that the Blue Nitro also believe that he is on the the 8 Beast king level should also just reinforce the fact that Jirou should be able to do his "father" can.

That argument can be made from the way I see your Bambina evidence. Although it undoubtedly shows how fast Bambina is, and I am somewhat familiar from a few of threads I've seen on the battle boards, that logic does not apply exclusively to all of the Beast Kings IMO. One such reason that can be given is that Bambina was depicted as exhibiting those great speed feats and Jirou has not fought this particular beast king in a test of speed or other contest. Moreover, if it's light speed feats that are to be compared, Wonder Woman has an exclusive one to her that is a doozy of a lightspeed feat.

That could be true, but Bambina is said to be the "problem child" of the 8 beat kings which could suggest he is one of the weaker ones but there is no proof for that. With that being said we have yet to see to other Beast kings fight as much as Bambina has.

Like I showed earlier, Toriko has managed to dodge Bambina's attack. And during the fight he was still able to perceive all of his movement. However when Toriko fought Guinness he couldn't even see his attacks

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Here you can see Guinness attack Starjun and bring him down. And this was done so fast that even Toriko couldn't see what happened to Starjun, and could only see what happened after. This is only the second 8 beats king we have really seen fight. But it should show that Bambina isn't the only one with speed. As Guinness is extremely fast as well. And Jirou grew up fighting him.

There is an explicit mention on the page which indicates Toriko might have gotten lucky in dodging Bambina's swing. I wouldn't dispute the obvious gap between the 4HK and Acacia's disciples within the Toriko verse, but to put it in Toriko power terms, Wonder Woman has defeated beings on the Heavenly King's level and held her own against foes at least as powerful as Acacia's disciples. And when it comes to her speed, and especially reflexes, there are several which clearly put her above lightspeed.

It is possible that it may have just been luck. However they had been training to deal with Bambina's speed after their first fight with him where he destroyed them in a span of a blink. As such after said training they had now become strong enough to take him on. So I believe they were fast enough to avoid his attacks. And they have still yet to surpass Acacia's disciples.

For instance, Wonder Woman was fast enough to get the lasso around Amazo before he finished saying 'me' and tied the rope around his body before Roy Harper could blink (Justice League of America #6)

Jirou would need to be on his extreme guard to avoid letting himself be tied up at superspeed like this. She was fast enough to deflect a missile at Cheetah's exact location before she could dodge it, and Cheetah had had her speed boosted by Zoom during the Pre Infinite Crisis period (Wonder Woman #29)

The Amazo feat is impressive since he is supposed to have Flash's speed. However faster than a blink isn't anything special and Amazo is fighting multiple people here so the argument could be made that he wasn't focused on her.

I'm not too familiar on Cheetah but if she was tagged by a missile, her speed would not be that impressive.

  • Scan 1: Tags an in character Wally during a training session fight by sensing the shifts in air currents due to her being blind. I use it as the lowest base to work up from.
  • Scans 2-3: Tags a mind controlled Wally West by recognising the pattern of his blitzes and reacting accordingly. I've made sure to include the previous scan where Diana notices the starfish pattern of Wally's attacks, instead of just the tagging Wally page, but I maintain Diana did require the necessary reaction time to land her hit on him.
  • Scan 3 - Lassos an out of control Wally who'd lost control of his speed with her lasso.
  • Well this scan doesn't seem to be a showcase for her speed. It seems to show how she can compensate for the speed difference through her senses.
  • Even in these two scans, It does showcase her fighting ability and how she is able to anticipate Wally's movements. She even says she doesn't need to be fast. Suggesting her speed was in play when she managed to tag him.
  • This is probably the only feat that seem to be light speed. But Flash was just running around, not attacking her in a battle like Jirou would.

Even Superman hasn't consistently reacted to Wally in the way Wonder Woman has, so that trumps Bambina and the Beast King's speed examples

But in these cases it wasn't wonder woman's speed that allowed her to react to Wally but her senses and fighting skill. She stated that she didn't need to be fast if she could anticipate his moves. The fact that she knows Wally and trains with him has allowed her to be able to tag him. With Jirou, she doesn't know anything about him, such as how he moves or what techniques he has. Which will make it more difficult.

It depends since neither character is aware of what the other can do but even if that were the case, I've more than compensated by showing Diana has the greater speed and reflexes to make the winning opportunities count.

Not really that much greater to be honest. Most of her wally west feats where dependent on her skill and senses rather than her speed. The speed gap her isn't big enough to make a major difference in this fight and allow her to overcome Jirou. Ji

Durability

Counters to Wonder Woman's durability

I would agree with that but I do feel it's a case of Diana having several more impressive durability feats due to her not having a Damage Knocking ability. She's tanked a punch from a Kryptonian powered Batman that sent her from the moon back to Earth, and I've already cited the approx. distance between us and the moon.

I have no doubt her durability is great. But it doesn't seem enough to tank a strike from Jirou's grand Knocking. He had enogh power to stop the rotation of a planet around 659 times the size of the Earth(he did this against Neo). That is still more powerful than what batman did to her.

She's taken hits from the Hawaiian Goddess Pele, who "punched harder than Kal" according to Diana. Obviously statements alone should be questioned and queried as is my debating policy, but this is in conjunction with a direct showing, and is backed up by Diana having fought a mind controlled/all out Superman several times so the statement itself can be backed up (Wonder Woman #35)

While that would put her at greater durability than Jirou, I still don't see it being enough to deal with Jirou's striking. Aside from the damage kncoking he also posses Big Bang Knocking.

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Here he uses big bang knocking against a part of Neo. Now as you can see this part of was almost like planet which Jirou realized when his regular Knocking didn't work. He goes on to state that he hadn't faced something like since the 8 beast kings. Then punches the neo in the oribit. You can also see how setsuno tells Jirou to not hit the planet due to how powerful the attack is.

This would mean that despite her great durability Jirou should be able to damage her, and it wouldn't take too many strikes to beat her down.

Furthermore, Diana's own durability is boosted by her bracelets which can create a forcefield enabling her to withstand attacks that might be capable of injuring or KOing her. For instance, when Wonder Woman cut open an Imperiex Probe without raising her bracelets, she was KOed and injured by the explosion (where each probe has a portion of the original Imperiex's power, the power of the Big Bang) When she raised her bracelets against another probe explosion, she remained conscious from it.

So while this is impressive how exactly would you quantify a portion of the big bang? Also she seems in no fighting condition after tanking the attack so even if they do keep her alive, it won't matter if she can no longer fight.

Her bracelets are what should help to balance the durability scales more between Jirou's Damage Knocking.

Maybe but I don't see why Jirou can just hit her some where else? I mean Wonder Woman has been hit several times(as seen by your durability feats). Her Brace don't cover her entire body while Jirou can use damage kncoking no matter where he is hit. So Jirou can still hit her in literally any other part of her body. Like Batman and Pele did in the scans you provided. Or like how I showed Mongul do it.

edit: I just saw that you were using pre-flashpoint WW only

But here is an example of when Doomsday was able to tag her.

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Here she charges at doomsday, and his is able to grab here and then punch her despite her bracelets. Jirou can do the same, as he isn't always going to hit her in the arms. And with Jirou's incredible striking capabilities that would be the end of her.

Well on the one hand I can't dispute your explanation of how Damage Knocking works, Wonder Woman can't overpower it without knowledge of the art of Knocking. However, on the countless planet busting attacks point, it might be argued that not all of Jirou's uses of Damage Knocking were on planet busting attacks, but on a great number of lesser attacks which adds up to the countless planet busting statement Acacia makes in your scans. Although Jirou can use it against Diana as much as he needs to, there is still a loophole Wonder Woman could exploit without knowing about how Damage Knocking works. I had previously inquired with DeathHero61 about how Damage Knocking works and he kindly provided me with the scans you've shown here, though obviously you would need to cite them anyway to prove your side of the debate lol. Anyway, the main points of interest are when Jirou has been blitzed before fighting those Blue Nitro guys you cited and when Acacia stated Jirou wouldn't be able to use Damage Knocking in time to reverse what he'd done.

Yes you could it as a bunch of no planetary attacks adding up to a planetary attack. However it was shown that while fighting the Blue Nitro he was only using the Damage knocking against attack that he wasn't naturally durable enough to tank which are pretty much planetary attacks. That being said he was shown to use it on attacks that are similar if not greater to what Diana is capable off so it wouldn't matter.

I know I'm kind of going back on what I said in the striking section but based on what happened in the Toriko manga itself, there's still the argument that Diana can speedblitz Jirou before he can activate Damage Knocking, not just with a bullrush but with a multi-hit blitz like this.

Maybe but she would need to continuously hit him with strikes above planetary. As Acacia said by releasing the damage knocking. He was basically being hit by countless number of attacks that could destroy the planet. That a whole lot of attacks that Jirou has dealt over 300 years. Diana is not going to be able to hit him that many times consecutively with planetary power before he is able to use damage knocking.

Skill/equipment

On this basis, I feel the comparison between the two is of Jirou being a more specific niche kind of fighter whereas Diana has the training and demonstration of skill to be the more well rounded and adaptable fighter who I've already shown using her fighting skills. Which became even more effective when combined with her gear.

Fair enough, Wonder Woman is a more skilled fighter than Jirou.

If Diana wanted to learn more about Jirou's past and who he is, she can easily learn about his time as the Rampaging Beast (which according to the Toriko wiki he's not very proud of) and try and empaphise with him to convince him to stop fighting. But for some reason if that doesn't work, Wonder Woman can just use the lasso to command him to stop fighting. She used the lasso to command an alien to send a message to her allies (Wonder Woman #44)

It's not that he is not proud of his past. It's just that Acacia's has locked that part of him because he turns into a monster otherwise. But when Jirou does come up against a strong enough opponents he will let his rampaging beast self out again. So that won't really work.

The only exceptions to the lasso's power is beings without a soul or non-sentient creatures like Doomsday. Given that Jirou does have a soul and is sentient, he can't resist the lasso's power. In regards to your second question, Wonder Woman regularly uses the lasso in her fights rather than just brawl it out. Not only can it be used to end the fight, but she can also use the lasso skillfully in combat to great effect. Note the use of her lasso in this fight with some enhanced gorillas where Diana opens combat with lasso in hand, ties the lasso around their hands, uses the lasso to overturn their momentum, ties it around their necks and to fling them around like a shotput.

Yeah but in a random encounter I doubt it would be her first go to weapon. She would really only use it once she realizes how strong Jirou really is. BUt once she does, Jirou would have inflicted significant damage on her.

Wonder Woman has used the lasso against fodder and powerhouse alike so she won't just brawl it out with Jirou, especially not when she realises how hard he hits. Now that it's clear Diana has many judicious uses of her lasso, that makes it even more viable that she can use it to counteract Jirou's Damage Knocking. As Jirou indulges in the Japanese trope of yelling out his attack names whilst performing them, Wonder Woman will clearly catch on from Jirou yelling Damage Knocking that this technique prevents him from being harmed. As such, she has been shown to be willing to use more lethal measures on difficult opponents, and one way Damage Knocking could be bypassed is if Diana uses the lasso to choke or garrote him. It can stop planetary attacks but there isn't enough proof shown that it could stop Diana from snapping his neck.

Oh he isn't yelling the attack name. That attack name is just there bolded for the viewer to know what he is doing. There is reason why the attacks aren't in speech bubbles like everything else he says. But even so, she doesn't know what damage knocking is so why would she know what to do.

As Dianna snapping his neck he wouldn't allow her to get the opportunity to grab his neck to begin with. He would just punch her before she gets the opportunity.

Now on to the Lasso, may not be able to break it but he could avoid being captured by in the first place, based on your speed showings the different isn't that great. And when he sees her throwing a rope he will definitely try to avoid being caught, and he does have the speed to avoid it.

Also, you'll see in the Pele scans that Wonder Woman has a ranged attack too. Her bracelets can project 'Aegis lightning' as they're made from the Aegis shield of Zeus and Zeus unlocked the code for that particular power of the bracelets.

Like I said earlier it would be hard for her to block every attack with the bracelets. Unlike the attacks of Nekron, Darkseid etc. The Attack is far larger.

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Here you can see Jirou use the attack against the Blue Nitro. The Blue Nitro confirm that this attack was going to destroy the planet . Also the attack is enormous, it cover several human sized beings and can be seen from space. This attack will impact her entire body just not those bracelets. A planetary attack of that size would be too much for her.

However Jirou doesn't necessarily have to use it as a blast as he can use it as a pinpointed punch

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Here Jirou fights one of the Blue Nitro and one shots him by just concentrating the Guiness punch and releasing it upon contact with the Nitro. He could do the same to Dianna, by releasing the Guinness punch on impact. That would do some significant damage to her and probably kill her.

And a planetary blast hitting her at such close proximity would be enough to kill her based on what you have shown for her durability.

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#50 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio
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