• 72 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for comicstooge
#1 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

Location:

No Caption Provided

Scenario:

In the aftermath of a series of Earthquakes all across the world due to one of Dr Doom's schemes, many of the world's cities have been left in ruins. The Punisher has traveled to the city of Iran, tacking down an Iranian gangsta/war criminal who escaped in Los Angeles.

S.H.I.E.L.D, suspecting this criminal to have ties with Dr Doom and to the Earthquakes, sent Hawkeye in bring the man back alive for interrogation. However, by the time Clint found the war criminal, Frank had already dealt with, but not before extracting vital information out of him.

Clint's mission objective has now changed - he has to bring Frank Castle in and find out what he learned. Not wishing to be captured, Punisher flees to a nearby destroyed construction site, but Hawkeye catches up and the fight begins.

Combatants:

No Caption Provided

Armed with:

- The Dark Reign Green laser pistols

- Pump shotgun (non-lethal, rubber rounds)

- Webshooter

- Ant-Man's helmet

- M4 carbine w/ scope (live ammo)

- Combat knife

- Kevlar Vest

- Flash bang grenades

- A revolver (live ammo)

VS

No Caption Provided

Armed with:

- Bow w/ regular arrows

- Standard assortment of trick arrows

- Arrow-claw arm gauntlets

Rules

- Morals on

- Combatants start 100 metres apart

- No prep

- Win via KO, kill or incap

Avatar image for jackjack390
#2 Posted by JackJack390 (1604 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on who gets the first shot in

Avatar image for serrure
#3 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on who gets the first shot in

while not in the title this would be a CaV. meaning 2 people debate and then you decide after we debate for a while.

@comicstooge ill see if i cant get my opener up tonight. ill be somewhat busy tomorrow and Sunday i have a date at around 12 (Central) so we'll probably really start on Sunday afternoon.

Avatar image for i_like_swords
#4 Posted by i_like_swords (26079 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes!

Avatar image for full123
#5 Posted by Full123 (4506 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for votes

Avatar image for serrure
#6 Edited by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

Clint Barton

No Caption Provided

Spatial Awareness

hawkeye posses that special skill that Captain America and Cyclops also have. he can make arrows curve and bounce off of surfaces

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

here he curves arrows perfectly

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

1. he hits banner with arrow, with enough accuracy, so that banner misses the bullet

2. bounces an arrow to hit someone in the back of the head

No Caption Provided

as you can see he shoots 1 arrow to move batroc into the location of the second arrow.

Accuracy

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

he shoots arrows while moving at high speeds

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

he takes out a helicopter with 1 arrow

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

theres no words for how amazing this feat was... he snaps a tree branch causing the squirrel to distract one guy, while the end of the branch distracts the other. its pretty freaking awesome.

Close Combat/ Team Busting

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

here he stomps the thunderbolts (comprised of Atlas, Songbird, Mach-1, Moonstone, and Jolt) pretty awesome right.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8

he beats Captain America. some impressive dodge feats here

Thats all Folks!

Hawkeye is pretty underestimated for some of the feats that he has

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for jackjack390
#7 Posted by JackJack390 (1604 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for comicstooge
#8 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for allstarsuperman
#9 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42637 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for serrure
#10 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: oh sorry

you good bro. no worries. im glad you think this will be close though

Avatar image for life_without_progress
#11 Posted by Life_Without_Progress (23430 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag 4 votes

Avatar image for comicstooge
#12 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1:

No Caption Provided

You've laid down some mighty impressive feats for Clint, but I think Frank can go tit-for-tat in most areas and supersede him in others.

Spatial awareness/senses:

He's killed guys while in complete darkness:

No Caption Provided

Senses Hand ninja tracking him, a fact he'd known all day:

No Caption Provided

He picked up on the fact that Daredevil become aware of his presence:

No Caption Provided

Oh, and ninjas can't sneak up on him:

No Caption Provided

While he mightn't be able to curve projectiles like Clint, his senses are plenty good enough to ensure Clint can't sneak up on him, nor will he be lured into any sort of trap. Not only that, but he's also a master at thinking one step ahead oh his opponent.

Here, he shoots a Mach 2 speedster, by shooting where she was going to be:

No Caption Provided

Accuracy:

Punisher has some exception marksmanship feats of his own. Not quite as good as Hawkeye's, but more than good enough to contend.

Here, he tags with a shotgun Wolverine, despite the fact Logan was actively trying to avoid his gunfire:

No Caption Provided

Shoots off a guy's finger while on a rooftop:

No Caption Provided

Shoots a cable with a pistol, which brings down a sign to stop a car driving away:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Hits Spiderman by anticipating his actions, showing great tactical skill:

No Caption Provided

To match your feat from before, Frank's also used tree branches to topple foes. Expect this guy was Spiderman!

No Caption Provided

In fact, I'd argue Punisher can shoot Clint's arrows right out of the air, in the same manner Bucky did:

No Caption Provided

Why? Well, let's compare them:

Bucky shoots Matt's baton out of the air:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Frank does it too:

No Caption Provided

Fights:

While you're showing against the Thunderbolts were pretty impressive, it's worth noting they were all behaving very unprofessionally and fighting sloppy. The team actually hurt eachother more than they helped eachother, Clint points that fact out:

No Caption Provided

Frank, in comparison, is anything but sloppy.

Here's one of Frank's battles with Wolverine that ends in a stalemate:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

The Cap fight in pretty good, but it's worth noting Rogers was not at all in the mood to fight. Still, it's a solid showing of tactical skill for Clint, using Roger's own strategy against him.

That said though, Cap himself's been impressed by Castle's tactics, even in a non-lethal situation:

No Caption Provided

Still, if you want Punisher soloing a team, how about Mirage's Avengers? Despite being a facsimile of the real thing, Frank does have some very solid feats here:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9

That's everything form me @serrure

Avatar image for keenko
#13 Edited by Keenko (5183 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Oh, man, this is great. Be sure to tag me for votes.

Avatar image for comicstooge
#14 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for comicstooge
#15 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for serrure
#16 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: unfortunately ima be pretty busy today. if i can squeeze it then this will take priority no worries.

Avatar image for comicstooge
#17 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure said:

@comicstooge: unfortunately ima be pretty busy today. if i can squeeze it then this will take priority no worries.

:) Anytime, man.

Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#18 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for comicstooge
#19 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for mickey-mouse
#20 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36323 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for wolverine008
#21 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for comicstooge
#22 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: I'd be honored to be tagged bro:)

Punisher's gonna go ahead and beat Wolverine when he's done here.

Avatar image for lvenger
#23 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Sure thing, if you think I'm qualified to comment.

Avatar image for comicstooge
#24 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge: Sure thing, if you think I'm qualified to comment.

You're my CAV-bro! Of course!

Avatar image for serrure
#25 Edited by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: gonna address some things you said and then we can go on from there

Spatial awareness/senses:

while Punisher does have pretty good senses, he does not posses the "spatial awareness" that allows Cap, Buttclops (Cyke), or Clint to bounce projectiles off of many surfaces and still strike a target..

Clint is also a Tactical Genius, if you look at the fight with the Tunderbolts he uses their own powers against them.

In fact, I'd argue Punisher can shoot Clint's arrows right out of the air, in the same manner Bucky did:

and i'd argue that the first time that happens Clint will get smart

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

either some explosive arrows or gas arrows will be fired. either way hes only gonna get to do it once before it starts biting him in the butt.

No Caption Provided

also in that scan Clint was not firing near as fast as he knows how too. i dont doubt Punishers ability to shoot out some of the arrows but if Clint does this he wont be able to dodge all of them

also Hawkeye has shot stuff out of the air before

No Caption Provided

this feat is actually pretty uber.

Getting Frank out into the opening

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

few hundred arrows should do it?

Return Fire

im under no impression that Frank is just gonna stand there while Hawkeye fires at him, no hes gonna be lightin the place up.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

good news is Hawkeye has already dodged rapid machine gun fire and fired on the move.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

but why hit Frank when he can fire back? no a Taser arrow (that knocked Cap out), or a flash arrow, perhaps one of his Razer arrows, or yes even one of his skittle arrows :) because Skittles DUH!

Hawkeyes advantages

Accuracy

Mobility

Versatility

Training from Captain America (thats always an advantage for anyone)

Reaction Time (hawkeye has shot bullets and caught arrows)

No Caption Provided

plus he was Blind. so its pretty good detection feats)

Franks Advantages (these are all that I can think of but i dont know enough about Frank, im setting you up to prove to me he has more :) )

Durability (but with Hawkeyes trick arrows it wont last long)

Pain tolerance

Bullets move faster than arrows.

The Most Important Thing

No Caption Provided

Hawkeye gets the chicks

No Caption Provided

your move and lets make this one fun no?

Avatar image for comicstooge
#26 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for comicstooge
#27 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for serrure
#28 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for comicstooge
#29 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for serrure
#30 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for serrure
#31 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for comicstooge
#32 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure said:

@comicstooge: is you still alive?

Yeah man, sorry. I'm just super busy with school right now. I'll make my response tomorrow. :)

Actually, I found out today is I work a little harder I'll be eligible for a scholarship

Avatar image for serrure
#33 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure said:

@comicstooge: is you still alive?

Yeah man, sorry. I'm just super busy with school right now. I'll make my response tomorrow. :)

Actually, I found out today is I work a little harder I'll be eligible for a scholarship

then by all means make that your priority and not this. this can always be put on hiatus for a later date. but a scholarship... man that sh!t is important and impressive. keep working for that man it'll make a difference

Avatar image for comicstooge
#34 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure said:

@comicstooge said:

@serrure said:

@comicstooge: is you still alive?

Yeah man, sorry. I'm just super busy with school right now. I'll make my response tomorrow. :)

Actually, I found out today is I work a little harder I'll be eligible for a scholarship

then by all means make that your priority and not this. this can always be put on hiatus for a later date. but a scholarship... man that sh!t is important and impressive. keep working for that man it'll make a difference

I'll have my response up tomorrow. But thanks! :D

Avatar image for comicstooge
#35 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

ROUND 2:

No Caption Provided
@serrure said:

Clint is also a Tactical Genius, if you look at the fight with the Thunderbolts he uses their own powers against them.

Tactical Skill:

If you want tactical skill, how about Punisher duping the Sentry?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12Gallery image 13Gallery image 14Gallery image 15Gallery image 16

He demonstrates impressive thinking on his feet, comping up with away to trick Sentry (utilizing the detonator he'd already used) as well as using the environment against his opponent with the acid tank.

Or how about when Frank embarrassed Iron Man?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

More than that, he's not above using dirty tactics to gain an edge. He shot through himself to take down Deadpool (who's healing factor was on the fritz, but still)

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Gear:

Aright, you've highlighted some of Hawkeye's gear, now let me highlight some of Frank's...

One of the reasons I went with the Ant-Man helmet, was due to this:

No Caption Provided

The helmet can act as a gas-mask/space helmet, so if Frank encounters any of Clint's pesky gas arrows, he'll have a nifty bit of protection.

And if Barton tries to spam arrows at him, Frank could always switch to a the laser pistols:

No Caption Provided

As seen above, they fire bolts of energy that put wide holes through sternums and blow heads off. These babies should be able to disintegrate multiple arrows at a time. Couple that with Frank's accuracy and he should be able to take out any number of arrows that come his way.

For the record, the pistols also seem to have a alternate firing mode in the form of a more precise beam that can stun Daken:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

So it can obviously do a lot more damage than a bullet. If he can get Clint in the leg or arm, it'll hinder him for sure.

Agility:

Hawkeye has some pretty potent explosive arrows, as you demonstrated, however I doubt Hawkeye will actually use them directly on Frank, chiefly because he'd be turning Frank into meaty chunks if he landed a direct hit.

However, that's not to say I don't believe Hawkeye won't use them on the environment or to draw Castle out of cover (Clint's still a clever guy after all).

That said, I believe Castle has the necessary agility to avoid the impact of any explosions that Hawkeye tries to knock him around with.

You'd be surprised how nimble he can be:

Here, he rolls out of the way of Ulik's strike

No Caption Provided

Or how about rolling over Ghost Rider's hell-fire?:

No Caption Provided

To all those who thought Punisher had very little agility, I disagree. Here's a front flip for your troubles:

No Caption Provided

He's even avoided Hood's men. Not bad for a middle aged guy.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

In regards to Hawkeye being faster because he hit a bullet out of the air:

No Caption Provided

Hawkeye clearly shot first. If anything, it was Crossfire who shot his arrow out of the air and not the other way around.

Speed:

Honestly, I'm not so sure about Clint having the edge in speed.

Frank's avoided a strike from Wolverine (who commented how fast he was):

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

Managed to escape a surprise blitz from Sabretooth with most of his throat in-tact:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Reacted fast enough to shank X-23 with the sharpened end of a pool cue:

No Caption Provided

Blocked Captain America's shield:

No Caption Provided

And has dodged a missile from behind:

No Caption Provided

Accuracy:

Those scans of Clint avoided gunfire are nice, but he's not up against some random assassin here, he's up against a guy who can do these sorts of things...

Like shooting Iron Man in the eye:

No Caption Provided

Tagging Spiderman in the chest with a shotgun:

No Caption Provided

And actually shot Spiderman's webshooters off his wrists while swinging off a flagpole:

No Caption Provided

Punisher could very well shoot Hawkeye's bow and take that from the equation. While Hawkeye is obviously more skilled with his weapon than Frank is with his, Castle still has more to fall back on if Clint destroys a weapon or two.

Without Barton's bow, I dare say he'll be easy pickings. He's smart enough and accurate enough to take the bow out of the equation with a well placed bullet.

Pain Tolerance/Endurance:

Clint's taser arrows are certainly a game changer here, but they didn't quite knock out Cap, as you were suggesting. In fact, it only dropped him for a few moments (Clint mentioned he'd be back up in 10 seconds):

No Caption Provided

Still, I think it's at least worth noting that Frank's pain tolerance when it comes to electricity is pretty intense.

Here, he gets doused in water with an electric current running through it and fights through the pain:

No Caption Provided

Gets electrocuted via running water and cattle-prod and breaks out, to slap his captor around:

No Caption Provided

Endures the Widow's bite (a taser attack), followed up by a blast from Iron Man's nonlethal ordnance to the back and then a kick to the face. He was still trying to reach for a Flash-bang grenade before Spidey webbed him:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

All in all, while Frank might get dropped by a direct hit with the taser arrow, a glancing blow or the like is something he can handle just fine.

Hand-to-hand skill:

While you do mention that Clint had some training by Captain America himself, this does not make him better fighter than Castle whatsoever.

After all, Frank knows nerve strikes:

No Caption Provided

He mentioned knowing a number of different styles in these scans alone, including Ahrin Ryu, Chiri-Na and Ninjutsu. While these might just be some fancy words, he demonstrates some pretty good counters, grapples and technical strikes here.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Clint might have some basic moves, but does he really have anything on this? This isn't even getting into Frank's actual showings against skilled combatants. Castle's by no means a top tier martial artist, but he's still damn good.

Alright man, I don't want to overload you here, but that's what I got. @serrure, the ball is in your court.

For the record, Frank gets the ladies too:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

And makes the Spirit of Vengeance cry:

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for serrure
#36 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: damn dude you kick a$$. working on response soon

Avatar image for legacy6364
#37 Posted by LEGACY6364 (7408 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher

Avatar image for legacy6364
#38 Posted by LEGACY6364 (7408 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for serrure
#39 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for legacy6364
#40 Posted by LEGACY6364 (7408 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for iragexcudder
#41 Posted by Iragexcudder (9461 posts) - - Show Bio

This is fetch

Avatar image for comicstooge
#42 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for serrure
#43 Edited by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: last post before votes or no?

If you want tactical skill, how about Punisher duping the Sentry?

c'mon bro we both know that the writing was hardly consistent there... i mean Sentry has heard osborn shouting for help from the other side of the world but he cant hear Punisher breathing from maybe a couple miles away at max... something doesnt add up there man

Or how about when Frank embarrassed Iron Man?

while impressive, that shows forethought and planning. in terms of enacting plans on the go very few can beat Clint Barton.

More than that, he's not above using dirty tactics to gain an edge. He shot through himself to take down Deadpool (who's healing factor was on the fritz, but still)

Clint is hardly a fair fighter but thats ok.

Hawkeye has some pretty potent explosive arrows, as you demonstrated, however I doubt Hawkeye will actually use them directly on Frank, chiefly because he'd be turning Frank into meaty chunks if he landed a direct hit.

However, that's not to say I don't believe Hawkeye won't use them on the environment or to draw Castle out of cover (Clint's still a clever guy after all).

Clint knows Punisher can tank it, also if Frank starts spraying Hawkeye isnt gonna go to extreme lengths to protect him... if Frank is missing an arm or something like that he'll be ok

Hawkeye clearly shot first. If anything, it was Crossfire who shot his arrow out of the air and not the other way around.

actually they fired at the same time... just shows that both were aiming the same... the important thing to note is that the bullet stopped moving... it just stopped.

You'd be surprised how nimble he can be:

Yes im reminded of a certain instance where Hawkeye was able to use those flips to his advantage

No Caption Provided

I found it. if Frank decides to go all agile like hes gonna end up stuck leaving Hawkeye with the fairly easy KO/Incap/Kill Shot. maybe the razer arrow that ive previously shown

Honestly, I'm not so sure about Clint having the edge in speed.

but i am fairly sure about it

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

in his fight with Angel i count 2 times where he dodged rapid fire.

the first time he did it 100% successfully

the second time Hawkeye was much close and still dodged most of them

No Caption Provided

Arrows have been fired before Hawkeye even has the bow and he shot them out of the air

And if Barton tries to spam arrows at him, Frank could always switch to a the laser pistols:

No Caption Provided

hope Frank has a nice grip on that gun, now imagine if that had been the Acid Arrow that Clint was hoping for. gun would have been useless

While you do mention that Clint had some training by Captain America himself, this does not make him better fighter than Castle whatsoever.

of course not... but being trained by Cap has helped Clint enormously

ive shown that he has taken on the Batroc Brigade twice and successfully beat them both times.

Clint's taser arrows are certainly a game changer here, but they didn't quite knock out Cap, as you were suggesting. In fact, it only dropped him for a few moments (Clint mentioned he'd be back up in 10 seconds):

I have a feeling Caps healing factor was considered when Clint said this. regardless 10 seconds is more than enough for Clint to get off another arrow to keep him incaped...

All in all, while Frank might get dropped by a direct hit with the taser arrow, a glancing blow or the like is something he can handle just fine.

no doubt... Frank probably has the best durability of a non-enhanced street leveler period. his pain tolerance is off the charts ludicrous (and i mean that as an impressive compliment, not saying its stupid) but if the taser arrow just glances him it'll give Clint time to set up his putty arrow or razer arrow.

While you do mention that Clint had some training by Captain America himself, this does not make him better fighter than Castle whatsoever.

your right but his showings against the Batroc Brigade, Cap, and US Agent speak for themselves

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10

notice before Clint, idiotically, threw away his bow he was stalemating U.S. Agent.

Cherry on Top

this kind of goes for Tactical Knowledge and Skill but i wanted to post it here

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

he tore through the Dark Avengers pretty quickly. sometimes being stealthy pays off

And makes the Spirit of Vengeance cry:

while thats total kick ass... it has everything to do with Frank not regretting anything (like he said) Deadpool has also done this but to a much more experienced rider Johnny Blaze.

The Main Factor

the main factor is Hawkeyes versatility, and he is grossly underestimated as a street leveler. if his opponents feel like doing acrobatics, he sets them up for a putty arrow, if his opponents pull out a gun he wraps it up, his versatility is what is key here.

Avatar image for comicstooge
#44 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure said:

@comicstooge: last post before votes or no?

If you want tactical skill, how about Punisher duping the Sentry?

c'mon bro we both know that the writing was hardly consistent there... i mean Sentry has heard osborn shouting for help from the other side of the world but he cant hear Punisher breathing from maybe a couple miles away at max... something doesnt add up there man

Or how about when Frank embarrassed Iron Man?

while impressive, that shows forethought and planning. in terms of enacting plans on the go very few can beat Clint Barton.

More than that, he's not above using dirty tactics to gain an edge. He shot through himself to take down Deadpool (who's healing factor was on the fritz, but still)

Clint is hardly a fair fighter but thats ok.

Hawkeye has some pretty potent explosive arrows, as you demonstrated, however I doubt Hawkeye will actually use them directly on Frank, chiefly because he'd be turning Frank into meaty chunks if he landed a direct hit.

However, that's not to say I don't believe Hawkeye won't use them on the environment or to draw Castle out of cover (Clint's still a clever guy after all).

Clint knows Punisher can tank it, also if Frank starts spraying Hawkeye isnt gonna go to extreme lengths to protect him... if Frank is missing an arm or something like that he'll be ok

Hawkeye clearly shot first. If anything, it was Crossfire who shot his arrow out of the air and not the other way around.

actually they fired at the same time... just shows that both were aiming the same... the important thing to note is that the bullet stopped moving... it just stopped.

You'd be surprised how nimble he can be:

Yes im reminded of a certain instance where Hawkeye was able to use those flips to his advantage

No Caption Provided

I found it. if Frank decides to go all agile like hes gonna end up stuck leaving Hawkeye with the fairly easy KO/Incap/Kill Shot. maybe the razer arrow that ive previously shown

Honestly, I'm not so sure about Clint having the edge in speed.

but i am fairly sure about it

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

in his fight with Angel i count 2 times where he dodged rapid fire.

the first time he did it 100% successfully

the second time Hawkeye was much close and still dodged most of them

No Caption Provided

Arrows have been fired before Hawkeye even has the bow and he shot them out of the air

And if Barton tries to spam arrows at him, Frank could always switch to a the laser pistols:

No Caption Provided

hope Frank has a nice grip on that gun, now imagine if that had been the Acid Arrow that Clint was hoping for. gun would have been useless

While you do mention that Clint had some training by Captain America himself, this does not make him better fighter than Castle whatsoever.

of course not... but being trained by Cap has helped Clint enormously

ive shown that he has taken on the Batroc Brigade twice and successfully beat them both times.

Clint's taser arrows are certainly a game changer here, but they didn't quite knock out Cap, as you were suggesting. In fact, it only dropped him for a few moments (Clint mentioned he'd be back up in 10 seconds):

I have a feeling Caps healing factor was considered when Clint said this. regardless 10 seconds is more than enough for Clint to get off another arrow to keep him incaped...

All in all, while Frank might get dropped by a direct hit with the taser arrow, a glancing blow or the like is something he can handle just fine.

no doubt... Frank probably has the best durability of a non-enhanced street leveler period. his pain tolerance is off the charts ludicrous (and i mean that as an impressive compliment, not saying its stupid) but if the taser arrow just glances him it'll give Clint time to set up his putty arrow or razer arrow.

While you do mention that Clint had some training by Captain America himself, this does not make him better fighter than Castle whatsoever.

your right but his showings against the Batroc Brigade, Cap, and US Agent speak for themselves

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10

notice before Clint, idiotically, threw away his bow he was stalemating U.S. Agent.

Cherry on Top

this kind of goes for Tactical Knowledge and Skill but i wanted to post it here

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

he tore through the Dark Avengers pretty quickly. sometimes being stealthy pays off

And makes the Spirit of Vengeance cry:

while thats total kick ass... it has everything to do with Frank not regretting anything (like he said) Deadpool has also done this but to a much more experienced rider Johnny Blaze.

The Main Factor

the main factor is Hawkeyes versatility, and he is grossly underestimated as a street leveler. if his opponents feel like doing acrobatics, he sets them up for a putty arrow, if his opponents pull out a gun he wraps it up, his versatility is what is key here.

Sure, I'll take out one more response and you can counter that, then we'll get to votes?

Avatar image for comicstooge
#45 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

ROUND 3:

No Caption Provided
@serrure said:

c'mon bro we both know that the writing was hardly consistent there... i mean Sentry has heard osborn shouting for help from the other side of the world but he cant hear Punisher breathing from maybe a couple miles away at max... something doesnt add up there man

It was thanks to Sentry's incredible senses Frank actually had lured him to the Battle Van, giving more time to escape via the route that Henry Russo laid out for him. It was a pretty cool sequence that I think is quite plausible.

Stealth

But in any case, Punisher's stealth is pretty damn good, though.

He's snuck around on a bunch of cops.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Remained hidden from Black Panther (despite him without his powers being capable of sense Kraven tracking him) :

No Caption Provided

And he's even snuck up behind Wolverine (someone who's senses far exceed Hawkeye)!

No Caption Provided

If Punisher decided to use stealth on Hawkeye, especially if the fight goes into one of the buildings or under the bridge, it could be a game changer.

Tactical skill:

In regards to the Iron Man showing, Castle only had minutes to plan. And even then, after the explosion, he seemed to be improvising.

In any case, I wouldn't put it past Frank to use his grenades like so:

No Caption Provided

However, these wouldn't be frag grenades obviously, but flashbangs instead. Still, blinding him would be of great benefit to Castle.

Endurance/Durability:

In terms of some of Clint's more exotic arrows such as acid, Frank can handle burning damage pretty well:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

While that's not quite the same acid, Frank's pain tolerance will still serve him well here.

He's been punched through a wall by Anti-Venom and been OK. If Barton's got any concussion based arrows, they won't be of too much use.

No Caption Provided

Chases down an assassin that had him scouted, despite getting his ribs broken and caught in an explosion:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9

Endurance/Skill:

I have a double use for these scans, so I figure I'd highlight them in a single category.

Firstly, this shows of Frank's endurance and willingness to fight dirty. An already heavily injured Castle gets shot through the leg by a lazer, the other leg broken and then has to fight Daken (and he wins, momentarily). It also shows his willingness to fight dirty, given that he ripped Daken's lip off with his teeth:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

Now we get a crazy display of pain tolerance of Frank, here. He gets cut up and keeps going until he's outright decapitated. Crazy stuff.

This also shows how effective Frank can be without a whole lot of gear. Despite having his rifle destroyed and only a knife and a pistol, he gives Daken a very good fight:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Speed:

Hmmm. Fair enough. Clint might have sliiiiiightly superior speed, but the difference is negligible at best.

Frank's dodged gunfire before:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

From shotguns, too:

No Caption Provided

He's even avoided a harpoon while underwater:

No Caption Provided

Dodged chain-gun fire from Stilt-Man:

No Caption Provided

And reacted to a sneak attack from Daredevil:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Gear:

Alright, just to point out some more of Frank's awesome gear:

His knife is titanium. That should be able to cut through Clint's bolas arrows:

No Caption Provided

His webshooter will be pretty useful. He's used it in combat to blind Thor:

No Caption Provided

And can use them for swinging, too.

No Caption Provided

The webs themselves are crazy tough. If Hawkeye gets caught, I don't see how he'll escape:

No Caption Provided

Furthermore, the Ant-Man helmet gives Frank a certain ace in the hole:

He's protected from Clint's sonic arrows. Frank was totally safe from a sonic attack that dropped Mr Hyde.

Not only that, but he'll be able to release a powerful sonic attack himself, in response.

No Caption Provided

Strength:

Beyond that, Castle is also the stronger of the two.

He's casually held a man by the leg over a building highhandedly with no strain:

No Caption Provided

And out's outmuscled the metahuman King Shark:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Manhandled an entire group of shield agents:

No Caption Provided

His hitting power is nothing to laugh at either. He'd busted a large block of ice with his bare fist:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

He's even hurt USAgent with his strikes:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Skill:

To further emphasise how Clint would get creamed in CQC, I'll lay down some showings for Castle against the likes of Black Widow, Daredevil, Moon Knight etc.

Here, he stalemates Black Widow:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Defeated Bullseye:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

Twice:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Stalemated Moon Knight:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

On two separate occasions:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Given Daredevil damn good fights, before losing:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

More than once:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

It's actually a hobby of Frank's:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

With a little bit of gear, he can even stalemate the guy. Notice that kickass head scissor move:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Furthermore, he's stalemated Deadpool:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Essentially, if Castle closes the gap, he'll eat Barton alive. While Clint might get a hit or two in with his arrow-claws (that he used against Angel) Frank's pain tolerance will allow him to take it.

In summary:

In conclusion, Punisher wins for the following reasons:

  • He's a slightly better tactician. Hawkeye might be great at improvising some unique strategy, but Frank's more calculating, cold and efficient nature will serve better in the long run. Hawkeye's strategies are far more general, while Frank specialists in out-thinking and bringing down his fellow man.
  • The speed difference between the two is negligible. While Barton is fractionally faster, it won't impact the fight too much, given Frank's other advantages.
  • What are Castle's other advantages? Well for one, he's got crazy endurance and durability. He can handle a hell of a lot. Clint would have to make him a pin cushion to bring him down and even then, that's still difficult
  • Punisher has a comparable level of accuracy to Hawkeye. Not only that, but bullets are a more effective projectile than arrows. Characters with accuracy feats equal to, if not slightly less than Frank's (such as Bucky) have shot down Clint's arrows.
  • Hawkeye's relying really on one weapon - his bow. If Frank takes that out of the equation via a bullet, the fight's pretty much won.
  • On the reverse, Castle isn't relying on a single weapon here. If he gets some of his weapons destroyed (because lets face it, that's Clint's MO) he can switch to another.
  • Punisher can close the gap via stealth or a flashbang grenade. From there, he'd use his superior strength and skill to bring Clint down.
  • When all else fails, he's still got the Ant-Man helmets sonic attack

Avatar image for wolverine008
#46 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

Avatar image for comicstooge
#47 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

Notice how many scans there were of Punisher chumping Wolverine? :D

Avatar image for serrure
#48 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: sorry this took so long but i sent you that PM yesterday... ill get to work now.

Avatar image for serrure
#49 Edited by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: alright last post before votes

Round 3

No Caption Provided

I know this is a bad spot for Hawkeye but the Artwork... well i mean its beautiful

It was thanks to Sentry's incredible senses Frank actually had lured him to the Battle Van, giving more time to escape via the route that Henry Russo laid out for him. It was a pretty cool sequence that I think is quite plausible.

I think it reminds me too much of when Deathstroke ducked Superman. seemed almost too far fetched for me. however the fact that it did work is more to blame on Sentry being an idiot (as writers have loved to depict him as such) ((freaking Bendis))

If Punisher decided to use stealth on Hawkeye, especially if the fight goes into one of the buildings or under the bridge, it could be a game changer.

Hawkeye caught an arrow while blind, sure he heard where Barney was but that nothing to do with the arrow.

No Caption Provided

and is this collapsing battle field. noise will be made, rocks and debris are everywhere the battlefield itself is a hazard for both opponents and Hawkeye has his eye sight here. if it were Dark i could see that as being a legitimate option but unfortunately its day time and hawkeye can still see.

In regards to the Iron Man showing, Castle only had minutes to plan. And even then, after the explosion, he seemed to be improvising.

again im not denying how impressive it is... theres no doubt about it, but it does lose value after certain people have been able to do something similar.

However, these wouldn't be frag grenades obviously, but flashbangs instead. Still, blinding him would be of great benefit to Castle.

assuming he gets that close to Hawkeye, he better have those already in hand. i still dont know how hes getting that close.

In terms of some of Clint's more exotic arrows such as acid, Frank can handle burning damage pretty well:

Hawkeye would never use those against someone with his morals on, Franks guns and equipment are fair game but on Frank himself he wouldnt do it. The Razor Arrow and the Tazer Arrow are far more likely

I have a double use for these scans, so I figure I'd highlight them in a single category.

i am under no delusion that Hawkeye is even close to the same durability scale as Frank. Punisher is far more durable, I think the word i used was ludicrous. but its still not enough to convince me that he would be able to escape a Razer Arrow for the incap. the Razer arrow not only restricts the movement of limbs but it also digs into the persons flesh

Skill

while Frank is more skilled than Hawkeye in certain ways hes not gonna be more accurate than him... Franks advantage will be if he can disarm Hawkeye (both bow and arrows) and then get up close and personal. the problem is this battle field is in Hawkeye's favor

theres plenty of surfaces for hawkeye to bounce arrows off of and if it comes to who shoots first, you can bet its gonna be Hawkeye

and if it gets to close range and Hawkeye still has his bow and arrows

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

look at the first four scans of the US Agent fight. Hawkeye was, arguably dominating, looking superior. and US Agent is allot stronger than Frank (hes a 10 tonner), and hes got reflexes on par with Cap.

Hmmm. Fair enough. Clint might have sliiiiiightly superior speed, but the difference is negligible at best.

I agree up to a certain point here. its the speed close? absolutely. but does it provide no advantage for hawkeye? im gonna say no. as ive said Hawkeyes greater speed will allow him to shoot first more often than not

Gear:

His knife is titanium. That should be able to cut through Clint's bolas arrows:

absolutely it should. but thats precious time Frank is wasting. cuz you know Hawkeyes gonna have another Arrow knocked and ready to fire as soon as possible after he fires that bola

The webs themselves are crazy tough. If Hawkeye gets caught, I don't see how he'll escape:

well i suppose he could use an acid arrow, he could use an explosive arrow... Clint is very good at escaping bonds that have even held people like Captain Marvel and such

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

correction! Captain Marvel, Sunspot, and Cannonball

He's protected from Clint's sonic arrows. Frank was totally safe from a sonic attack that dropped Mr Hyde.

Not only that, but he'll be able to release a powerful sonic attack himself, in response.

couple things...

1. it seems he had help using that Sonic attack

2. i wonder how well any of that will do against a localized emp

No Caption Provided

ya know how they say theres an app for that? well there really is an arrow for that!

Beyond that, Castle is also the stronger of the two.

no argument here, Castle is stronger.

To further emphasise how Clint would get creamed in CQC, I'll lay down some showings for Castle against the likes of Black Widow, Daredevil, Moon Knight etc.

im gonna disagree here. Bartons H2H showings are solid enough that Frank would have to disarm him of both Bow and Arrow to ,as you put it, "Eat him alive"

Captain America, and the Batroc Brigade could not beat Hawk in CQC with his arrows. but US Agent did the moment Clint threw away his arrows.

Essentially, if Castle closes the gap, he'll eat Barton alive. While Clint might get a hit or two in with his arrow-claws (that he used against Angel) Frank's pain tolerance will allow him to take it.

by closing the gap your gonna make it even easier for Hawkeye to stick him

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

and while Frank is busy dodging

No Caption Provided

boom hes stuck and Hawkeye goes in for the finish

Hawkeyes solid advantages

  • Hawkeye has a solid advantage in versatility
  • Hawkeye has the ability to incap Frank without even doing real damage to him.
  • Stealth isnt an option given the conditions
  • Bartons quicker reflexes will make a difference here, he'll get the first shot.
  • The Putty Arrow is a real threat here.even if Frank does have a way to get out of it, it will take far too much time
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for comicstooge
#50 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: You ready to go to votes, my man?