CaV | Vegeta (TheWatcherKing) vs Jin Mori (HigherPower) - Open for Votes

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Lilgodperv

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Great job both of you.

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CloudtheMaker

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Nice

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macroo

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The powerscaling on comicvine has reached a new level danm... its is almost like watching youtubers powerscale

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Pandalumina

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now that was pretty good

nice one

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thenamelessone

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This post can be described as a Mad Man's masterful invention.

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EcoBlitz

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#57  Edited By EcoBlitz

@macroo: ikr? Lmao but I think it’s only in CaV’s it gets like this

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nassergrant19

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OrientalWarrior

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Good cav

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mr-yes

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Wow. This is a damn good CAV, amazing work from both of you 👏

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rajjarsalt

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Came for poetry

Stayed for munkee

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higherpower

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#62  Edited By higherpower  Moderator

Round 3

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Power (Skill Unaddressed)

Even universal is inconsequential to Vegeta so for your sake it’s on you to prove you can match up with him, otherwise the disparity is so great being in his very presence could threaten death for you.

One of the many upsides to debating Jin is that I actually never have to prove that he needs to match up with his opponent in power. Jin is a character who is expressly written to become more skilled and unbeatable the weaker he is in comparison to whoever he is fighting. Take a look at this sequence and make sure to read the narration/internal monologues carefully to get the full context.

To give you an idea of just how physically debilitated Mori was in this scene, and to quantify the gaps in stats that his skill can bridge, it took all of his strength to the point he was spurting blood to lift up a large piece of debris that was blocking his path. This was just a few chapters before the raid where he fought those monsters.

There are characters in GoH who are fodder to prime Mori like Hercules, who took over Atlas' divine punishment and lifted an entire constellation of stars with one hand.

The mass of our Sun is 1.9891× 1030 kg (nonillions) and it's a below-average-sized star. Imagine dozens of larger ones compared to a single building on Earth, when you can fit 1 million of Earth inside the Sun already. Sense of scale is hardly emphasized in these discussions. And this isn't the only solar system class feat, Satan and Han Daewi were capable of moving Jupiter at MFTL speed through gravity manipulation and Jin's staff Yeoui has greater mass than that level of force. These are characters who are ants to Mujin as shown in my previous posts. So Mori while hypersonic and sub-building level in strength was sparring with a bar minimum galaxy level, undecillion times FTL character in Mujin through sheer skill. Numerically, that power gap is in the octodecillions (1057) or novemdecillions (1060). It is now your responsibility to prove that UE Vegeta is more powerful than Nirvana Mori by a factor greater than novemdecillion—but the kicker is that the larger you prove the power gap to be, the more unwinnable this fight becomes for you. Ain’t that something?

But wait, there's more! Jin was quite literally seeing Mujin in slow motion. He was countering his attacks, redirecting his strongest skill, and battering him with pure skill because we know he had no energy or force left in his body. Not only was Jin mid-tier but he was literally on his deathbed. Death was knocking and asking if he could come in. And this is Jin without any powers. The difference in power between Jin and Mujin was so great that Jin could literally die in his presence. From a whisper or a graze. This is the same fantasy scenario you envision for Vegeta and Nirvana Mori here ("the disparity is so great his presence could threaten death for you"):

Your entire argument literally already happened to Jin Mori in canon. And we saw how he dealt with it. But wait---there's more again!

Daewi explained that Mujin is a God tier in skill within the verse, which says a lot. So Mori's feat didn't occur against some unskilled brute: it was performed at the highest level against a character more skilled than anyone in DB can ever hope to be. Mujin fought Mori, Daewi, and Mira at the same time (before Mori leveled up in skill as per his progression mechanics).

I wanna take a moment to reference an instance I showed in the "Post-Ragnarok" sub-section of the skill section in my previous post. Daewi used an analogy of a video game character breaking the mechanics of their in-universe gaming system to describe Mori's skill progression.

Ironically these are things you would've known about if you didn't skip that section. Supreme God Mori before his Nirvana ascension was able to combine that obscene level of skill with his prime physical power to create a being with no combat flaws or weaknesses. This proves Daewi's theory and it's why he posits a rhetorical question to Mira---to demonstrate that Mori became a video game-type God character relative to them.

You’ve dug yourself into an impossible hole. You doubled down on having a power advantage which I’m no longer contesting as it plays directly in my favor. There is no recuperation from this argument: the stronger Vegeta is to Jin, the easier time Jin has beating the crap out of him in a fight. Your only options are to 1) argue UE Vegeta is more powerful than Nirvana Mori (the guy operating at 250,000x multiversal here) by an order greater than novemdecillions using objectively quantified numbers and not relying on largely undefined and arbitrary gaps between characters. 2) Engage in a skill debate and argue that Vegeta is more skilled than Jin, which we both know is an area you stand absolutely no chance in so don't even waste my time, or 3) backtrack and argue that Vegeta is actually weaker than Jin, which just amounts to a concession because Jin's skill wouldn’t stop increasing.

For the record, I don't actually believe you have a power advantage. But if it's what you believe and it helps me then hey, why should I stop you? More power to you buddy.

I’m not sure this is a great feat given the manner of Jin Mori’s powerset. It would be one thing if he was solely using sheer force to warp the fabric of the universe on this scale but he has reality warping so how much of this can you really attribute to his raw strength?

Pay closer attention. The technique he used to complete that feat was the Jin Hoechook. I perfectly broke down already in my last post what this technique is, how it works (its relation between strength and skill), and how it evolves with numerous examples. It's his signature Renewal Taekwondo move. Jin performing it as the Supreme God after completing the skill tree and becoming a martial arts God is why it was so powerful in that instance and warped reality on a universal scale. The moral of the story is maybe don't completely skip my skill section next time.

As things are right now you’re banking on limit breaking multipliers and skills to allow him to punch well above his base which we will see if it works.

Hope this has been answered.

There’s no such thing as “nearly infinite” in size, you’re either infinite or you aren’t. Any insanely high number you can think of is still infinitely below infinity. That’s the whole point, and your attempt at asserting GoH’s universes are bigger than DB’s has officially backfired. Because if I desired it I could go by the statements that suggest Dragon Ball’s macrocosm is infinite in size.

Heaven (a planet in otherworld) said to be as big as the universe. Reminder the world of the supreme kai is 1/10th the size of the macrocosm. These are true descriptions of an infinite cosmos, and if we took everything at face value Vegeta would scale multiple infinite times over Jin Mori’s “nearly infinite“ cosmos. But in actuality…. I take this as a way to just describe the universe is very big rather than actually infinite just like the “near infinite“ statement you shown which doesn’t even make sense. But if you do try to see how close to infinite we can get you’ll lose, I suggest you don’t bother with that again.

Especially since “Infinite Zamasu“ was merging with entire timelines, not just a macrocosm which as I said would already be bigger than a singular GoH universe.

I interpreted "nearly infinite" as trending towards infinity, especially since in the raws there are multiple times where the universe is just outright stated to be infinite in the final fight. I already explained Brahman is infinite and Mujin became infinite true to his name after becoming Brahman with Mori similar to Merged Zamasu (which is only possible if the universe is infinite). So in other words, if the Universe 7 macrocosm is infinite in size, then it's the same size as a single GoH universe…

And a single GoH universe has a much more complex cosmology than you think. There are three realms within a GoH universe: A Human Realm, a Sage (Monster) Realm, and a Heavenly/Divine Realm. Then there's an Afterlife (Nirvana) and a Hell (Naraka). I'll use this rebuttal as an opportunity to address your 5D scaling as well.

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There are multiple universes/alternate timelines and dimensions as evidenced by the Monkey Kings (Jaecheondaeseongs) that Mori summoned.

Mori specifically stated that he only summoned the best of the best, which means there are much more timelines and different versions that he could've selected from, increasing the number into a plurality that should be in the dozens. Now the Human Realm and the Monster Realm are just the standard infinite/static universe. But the Heavenly Realm is where things get interesting. When we first see the Heavenly Realm it appears to be a small unassuming planet inside the Sage Realm. But it actually contains a Skyscraper which is a massive 4D structure that holds 10,000 floors and dimensions; the last 7 floors of the tower each being their own universes with their own spacetime! Keep in mind that world and universe are interchangeable words in Korean, Chinese, and Japanese. The last 7 floors are kept by the floor owners who are stated to be the strongest people in their world/universe. They are also known as the "Owners of the World" or "The Masters of the Heavenly Realm".

Gods are capable of fusing realms/universes and divvying them up. We also know this took place after the first War when Sun Wukong attacked so it stands to reason that there are countless other dimensions and space-times that have been merged into the Heavenly Realm.

So in the GoH cosmology, there are dozens of timelines and each one has at least 9 universes plus the afterlife, with at least one in each confirmed to be infinite in size. Nirvana Mori exists outside the scale of the entire cosmological structure in GoH and views these universes and timelines as tangible, 2D fictional objects that he can mess with like an old movie film strip.

The GoH cosmology may not be the biggest one out there, but Jin’s point of view in comparison to an entire reality transcends an entire cardinality of infinities (a set of infinite universes containing a multitude of universes, dimensions, timelines, and realms) which still places him beyond Vegeta’s reach. Unless of course, you want to make the argument that UE Vegeta transcends the conceptual and metafictional confines of the entire Dragon Ball franchise and views Super characters as characters. That would be would be the only equivalent and it's obviously not the case.

I almost don’t know where to begin here. Let’s first start off with what you yourself admit towards the end of your post

And last time I checked nothing in the OP we agreed on allows you to ignore that. Stipulations you yourself set are things like It’s not in character, the stipulations you laid out are these characters are in character, and he didn’t do it when it would’ve been useful in his final fight. So what in the OP says we ignore all of this when YOU claim it’s not in character for him?

This is a simple misunderstanding. Limit removers as a technique are perfectly in character for Mori to use. Here’s a quick album showing all the times he's abused them.

As you can see, after tapping a pressure point on his temple, the skill works by removing your brains' mental blocks on your power and bringing out your full potential in strength. But it has a rebound because the normal body can’t withstand overexerting itself and that force. Jin's superhuman body could shrug off manageable stat amps, and even Hui could go up to 72x. But Jin pushed himself to 250,000x in his match with Satan which basically ruined his body after Mujin sealed his powers and he didn't use them for a while. Upon regaining his powers he didn't shy away from using them again when he needed to in the final fight. So I don't know where you got it from that he didn't use it then...

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You're clearly confused about what the stipulations in the OP mean for the version of Jin you're facing here. Pictured above is Supreme God Mori who is much weaker than Nirvana Mori who's canonically unbounded by any physical restrictions or logic in the verse. The only reason why he didn't use limit removers anyway was because of the rebound damage from using them before. If the OP states that Jin is at full power and fighting to the best of his abilities, then why would that damage carry over or even be applicable/relevant to a formless version that's a conceptual nigh-omnipotent God relative to everything we see in GoH before? Think really hard before you answer.

Even if I allow this you lose the game for multipliers. Goku was a multi solar system level character in SSJ3 in the Buu Saga(which is 4,000-40,000 times base ftr) but SSG, which doesn’t stack on his yellow SSJ forms, made him leap to universal a difference of power well into the quintillion’s even without taking into consideration DB’s larger macrocosm.

The gap gets even larger when you take into account SSB is 50x SSG, SSBE is 20x blue(comparable to KKx20) and UE is comparable to MUI even without taking further damage to increase its power. Which is again something that needs to be pointed out, saiyans are bred for combat constantly evolving and adapting to get stronger and more skilled by fighting so much so they can jump tiers in a fight.

My argument is that Mori would combine limit removers with infinite cloning in the same way that Satan did. Nirvana Mori should be able to make an infinitely spawning amount of clones considering he himself is infinite and Satan who is much weaker made 245 quintillions. Even if we use 245 quintillions as a baseline, all 245 quintillion clones each using 250,000x limit removers (to their multi-universal base power) attacking collectively is 61 quintillion times multiversal. This line of argumentation is directly dependent on your rebuttal to my cloning but I'll address that and your damage absorption in the hax/versatility section.

[...]

I give Vegeta a healthy advantage in power.

The more you prove the power gap to be, the more you prove that Jin destroys him in skill. You'll never see him attack, never strike back, and never avoid a hit.

Hax/Versatility

This is probably going to be a big part of the debate, how Vegeta fairs against Jin Mori’s hax? I think Vegeta can deal with it, within DB it’s shown consistently that when there is a significant power gap you can resist even some of the most potent types of hax.

I'm pretty sure it's never actually stated anywhere in any DB manga, anime, guidebook, or game that a character becomes immune to any and all hax so long as they're stronger than the person who's using it. Because if you knew such a statement existed, you would have posted it. This principle is not an actual, canon law in the DB universe. It's just a popular belief that powerscalers use to embellish what is literally just normal feats of hax resistance. The idea that stronger characters can't be affected by much weaker characters isn't new or groundbreaking---it's present in every medium. But to try and rationalize this as some infallible, blanket rule that protects DB characters from any kind of hax whatsoever is ridiculous, especially when what you're really doing is taking specific feats of specific hax resisted by specific characters and scaling that resistance to every character in your universe so long as you can prove they're generically more "powerful" than characters from different fictional universes. How does that work?! Not to mention there are literally plenty of times in Dragon Ball where hax works on stronger characters and it's incredibly dishonest to pretend otherwise.

Let's think critically for a second. Your logic here is that because character A in universe A resisted hax from fodder (relative to him) in universe A, he can resist a completely different type of hax from character B in universe B as long as you prove to yourself that character B is weaker. This argument assumes that the laws in universe A are the default laws in any cross-universe battle setting, and it also ignores the possibility that character B's combat effectiveness comes from their hax instead of their power. Proving a power advantage to compensate for a hax disadvantage is literally inverting the purpose of hax: hax is something that can compensate for a power disadvantage with a specific ability that requires resistance due to it ignoring conventional durability, the very thing that raw power targets. So it's a very circular and fallacious argument, specifically the composition and division fallacy (and circular reasoning.)

Also, this creates a huge problem without equalizing verse energies. Characters often use energy sources exclusive to their franchise and abide by power systems that follow the rules of their verse. This poses a problem when pitting them against characters from different franchises when you make assertions like this. Verse equivalence should always be taken on a case-by-case basis, and for series like DragonBall we need to analyze how their energy works in comparison to who they're up against. Hax and skill are KING in GoH, and weaker characters with enough tenacity and willpower always have a fighting chance. In DragonBall, ki can be referred to as "latent energy" or "fighting force" and is merely a measure of a person's power. Therefore, if something like Hakai can only be countered by matching the user's Ki power, a sufficiently strong character would be able to withstand it even if they don't utilize spiritual energy because, according to DragonBall logic, their ki would be extremely high in relation to their power. But by the same token, if an ability of a weaker character can kill or incapacitate a stronger foe in an instant, then a similarly powerful enemy in DB would be slain even if they have a much higher amount of ki.

In order to prove that Jin's hax wouldn't work on Vegeta, you need an explicit feat or statement demonstrating that Vegeta can not be affected by any power of any nature by simply being more powerful than the person using it. Hard evidence. Not something resisted by other characters that aren't him or that he doesn't share an identical powerset and genetic makeup with. And not some random ability that wouldn't normally work when used by fodder against a much stronger character anyway, due to their own limitations. More to the point, most of these resistance feats aren't good enough to prevent Jin's powers from working, and you also didn't provide resistance to or counters to some of the more important ones.

1. Shenron confirms it’s beyond his power to kill the saiyans.

2-3. Goku in Ultra Instinct Omen is so much faster than Moro he can ”dodge” his energy being drained.… somehow. In M9 Gohan negs energy draining/paralysis just because he was too strong for it.

4/6. Porunga can’t teleport Goku back to earth against his will(Porunga has casually recreated large planets and restored even Buu saga Goku’s power), but Goku was able to resist being transported back. These wishes don’t require consent at all FTR. And to further my point Arale is a toon force character able to manipulate the laws of reality freely in anyway she wants for a gag(doing stuff like poking the Sun and having it act like a balloon making day time into night and fighting SSB Goku pre ToP). But Beerus is stated by Goku to be immune to her abilities and would casually destroy her if he wanted to

5. Dabura has the ability to turn anyone to stone by spitting on them, Trunks blocks this with his bare hands.

7. Hit’s time stopping didn’t work on Goku in God Mode cause Goku was above his level(this only applies for the manga, anime version hit has different mechanics). Keep in mind Hit’s time manipulation is extremely powerful as I’ll get into later.

8-10. Even though Buu managed to turn Vegito into candy it couldn’t depower him, in fact he was beating Buuhan worse. Let me reiterate, buu completely eradicated Vegito’s DNA and changed his matter into candy but Vegito’s power remained.

11. Freiza takes being hit with a piece of Sidra’s energy of destruction and managed to contain it, this is a move that completely destroys your existence and soul. Goku also gets trapped and betrayed by Frieza, being stuck in such energy for a prolonged amount of time.

12. Vegeta punches through hakai which is destruction itself, he was able to blast through Toppo’s encasing himself in energy of destruction as armor which erased any attack that hits him from existence. This doubles as a good durability for withstanding final explosion a move intended to kill you as you’re detonating all the energy in your body for explosive power.

There are just as many if not more counterexamples of hax working on stronger characters in Dragon Ball. The majority of the hax in DB are ki based, which is the entire reason why you can be strong enough to resist them; You can withstand these hax abilities if you have more ki/are substantially stronger than your opponent. That's where their power derives, it's all the same system. Other verses are not affected by this. But if this were the case, then why does Mafuba even exist? Why's it ever used at all? What made it effective against Zamasu? Hell, why was it even used in the tournament of power? Mafuba is hax that worked on King Piccolo and Future Zamasu once by Future Trunks, and if they hadn't forgotten the right seal it would have worked on Zamasu again. Why is that just ignored? In fact, it literally worked ON Vegeta! Who at this point literally dwarfs universal! The gap between characters like King Piccolo, Frost, Roshi and Vegeta is astronomic. (Did you know Jin has sealing too?)

There are plenty more examples:

  1. Someone as weak as Babidi can mind control people far stronger than Namek saga Frieza like Yakon, Pui Pui, or even characters around Cell tier like Dabura. Ironically, people ignore this and just defer to the feat of Vegeta resisting Babidi's mind control to further the power nullifies hax agenda. But arguing Vegeta resisted it by power is incredibly misleading since Vegeta himself stated "you may take over my body and soul, but not my pride" implying that it's strictly a willpower feat based on his Saiyan pride. Vegeta directly admitting his body is vulnerable tarnishes the argument that it's a resistance feat by sheer power. His pride is what overcame it.
  2. Captain Ginyu's Body Changes - When Ginyu was a frog with sub-human level power he was able to switch bodies with Tagoma with no issue.
  3. Guldo time stop and psychic abilities - On Namek, Gohan and Krillin far outstripped Guldo's level of power to the point that Guldo even admitted that a single attack from them would one shot him. But his time stop was still effective and he even immobilized them with his psychic ability.
  4. Hyssop's absolute Zero - Hyssop froze Vegeta's arm to the bone and forced him to use Super Saiyan to break the ice. You've done me the honor of demonstrating just how powerful Vegeta is or scales to be even in base at all points throughout DBS, so I don't need to elaborate on this. The technique itself unbothered Vegeta, but considering he needed to powerup to break the ice its fair to assume he couldn't otherwise despite being stronger than him in base.
  5. Devilmite beam - The reason why Goku survived it was because his pure heart. This means that even though he was much stronger than Devilman(he literally one-shot him after getting serious) without a pure heart he would have died. Master Roshi's description of the ability lets us know it's a hax that CLEARLY ignores power levels. Honestly, this one ability shuts down the whole "if you're strong enough you can resist any hax" argument by itself.

"It is a force of unimaginable evil, that has destroyed more lives than any war or pestilence combined. Long ago there was a mighty-but-compassionate warrior. His power was beyond measure, yet many foolish upstarts tried to destroy him, in hopes of making a name for themselves. They were all unsuccessful, until one day, the Devilman appeared. Knowing he could not compete against the warrior's strength, the Devilman attacked using his mind. He discovered he could exploit his opponent's negative thoughts, no matter how faint, and convert them into an energy beam of immense power, the Devilmite Beam. It amplified any dark thought, anger, malice, aggression and caused it to expand until his opponent's heart, literally exploded! It was the death of a great hero, and the birth of an even greater evil." - Master Roshi explaining the Devilmite Beam

6. I think the Vegito feat actually works against you. First, Vegito didn't accomplish that through strength, it's a special characteristic unique to him that his power doesn't change even if his shape does. Second, Buu is obviously much weaker than him and the candy beam still succeeded in its function of transmuting him to candy. It didn't depower Vegito, but the matter manipulation itself worked when it shouldn't have based on the logic that stronger characters resist/become immune to hax. He didn't resist turning into candy, turning into candy just didn't slow him down. But if it was a different, more lethal hax than a matter transmutation where your conscience remains, it would have also succeeded in its *function*.

7. When people usually cite Vegito in these hax resistance discussions, it's to reinforce the notion that DB characters can resist the hax of anyone weaker than them. The candy feat is one faulty example, but manga also explicitly contradicts this idea when Vegito needed toform a barrier beforehand to protect himself from Buu's absorption. Vegito was relieved when the barrier protected him from getting absorbed... which means he wouldn't have been able to no-sell Buu's absorption simply by being stronger than him.

8. There are also some examples in Dragon Ball GT like Haze Shenron using his pollution hax to depower and weaken Pan and Goku until they were at his level. Pan was dominating him by herself and Haze Shenron is shown to be one of the physically weakest Shadow Dragons.

9. Eis Shenron was able to freeze Goku's hands and poison his eyes despite being weaker than SSJ4 Goku to the point that he was getting completely stomped even after Goku was blinded.

Your entire argument is not something acknowledged within the verse. It has its merits but it can't be used in cross-universe battles so long as there exists even minor contradictions when it's not even an established law to begin with. It's been referenced in regards to some characters such as Hit, but that was a specified weakness for him and not a general verse thing.

But this isn’t all, one of the best showings I can bring up actually involves a weaker character resisting a stronger person’s hax. The instance is involving the Grand Priest, who is the second strongest being in the Dragon Ball multiverse after Zeno. The GP altered things to disable abilities like flight in the WoV, one can’t even levitate or hover which is a showing of law manipulation/power nullification.

As this wasn’t a blanket “increasing gravity in a given area” but it specifically disable abilities for the fighters as proven with the Supreme Kai and Beerus. And the Grand Priest has the power to casually change the world of void, and yet Jiren who’s basically personified power in this arc was able to ignore this altogether as a result of his power(he spent half of the tournament just floating).

This is such a shameless reach. Law manipulation? Power nullification? Really? You say it's those things instead of what its described to be ("increasing gravity in a given area") because it targeted the fighters and not the Supreme Kai and Beerus... when the Grand Priest specifically said that each fighters gravity is what was adjusted according to their planets?

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The law manipulation in GoH transcends multiple universes and dimensions and is abundantly more explicit. This is straight up space and gravity manipulation. Jiren may have resisted it, but even if it was power nullification and law manipulation, it would just be at the same level as Ultio using Tam to remove the Taboo law. Plus Gods in GoH like Ohkwang have actually resisted power nullification before. Sujin has been able to nullify/negate/seal powers by looking at you since the Sage Realm arc:

Sujin can also control the laws and physics and space and time in an area where she becomes God, but she was barely able to hold off Ohkwang for a minute. Ohkwang wouldn't be able to stand in Supreme God Mori's presence without falling down to worship him.

While Jin Mori has a large pool of abilities Vegeta benefits from the fact that he is much much more powerful, and this has allowed him to resist erasure that warped an endless expansion of nothingness. To put things into perspective Jiren while strong isn’t stronger than any of the 12 angels in DBS, and they’re all fodder to the grand priest. But he was still able to resist the power nullification of the Grand Priest as a result of how strong he is, and Vegeta is stronger than Jiren currently.

Mori has a large pool of abilities that Vegeta himself has absolutely zero feats of resisting in any shape or form, across any of his versions in any piece of Dragon Ball media. So why would this matchup favor you? Because of some made up, inconsistent power/ ki/hax mechanics in DB that would have no bearing without verse equalization anyway? I'm really supposed to sit here and believe that Vegeta can resist all the hundreds of Jin's esoteric hax, because you think he's stronger than him? Plus none of those hax feats are even impressive to begin with, they're literally all things I've already showed Jin doing. Let's take a closer look at the actual hax feats you posted that you scaled your hax resistance to:

  • Shenron admitting the limitations to his power: Shenron can only grant one wish per summoning and can't grant the same wish more than once. He also can't use his powers to kill anyone stronger than his creator, and if his creator dies, he dies as well. Furthermore he cannot resurrect those who have died of natural causes (such as old age or sickness). When resurrecting multiple people, he can't resurrect anyone who has been dead for over a year.
  • Porunga's feat of recreating large planets and restoring Buu saga Goku's power.
  • Arale poking the Sun and turning day to night.
  • Grand Priest warping the World of Void.

These were literally the best hax feats that you scaled the hax resistance too... and Mori accomplished all of these things in a single moment with his Karma manipulation. Bringing dead people back to life, restoring powers, recreating planets/the sun and solar system, warping the infinite universe and purging it of malice are literally all things I've posted that he's done. And that was a weaker version! What am I supposed to be impressed by?

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Clones don’t work on Vegeta, cause FSF can undo it.

As I explained, it tears apart power gained by fusions or absorptions which counters your ability to drain/absorb souls. Literally any power that isn’t innate to your character will be stripped away from you, and apply the opposite principle for countering cloning. He can undo it by forcing cloned bodies back to the original, so this is useless which will be made more clear with other abilities later.

And things get worse with FSF if Jin Mori absorbed the powers of his verse…

…..then it’s subject to being taken from you. Which seems to be the case.

Is there any reason Jin doesn’t reverse causality to prevent any action you take from ever becoming real or occurring in the first place?

Is there any reason Vegeta would even want to do this or be able to do this after Jin removes malice and ill-intent from him and completely remove his powers in the process? How would he fight without the will or motivation and his abilities gone?

Is there any reason Jin doesn’t combine that with his probability manipulation to increase the chances of everything he does to a 100% reality which simultaneously reduces your chances of fighting back to zero?

Is there any reason Jin doesn’t just copy all your powers and forms and use his omnipresence through time to force the concept of death on you before the timeline of your existence began?

Is there any reason someone with complete control over miracles, death, karma, samsara, and reality who also has a laundry list of broken abilities and higher dimensional control over time and space would even be affected by these things when he exists outside the cosmological structure of his own fictional setting?

Is there any reason Jin doesn’t just beat the shit out of you through skill considering you’ll be moving in slow motion like the last guy who was -illions of times stronger and faster than him?

Why do I feel like you’re deliberately undermining all the hax at my disposal by not seriously addressing it and making it seem like you can just brute force your way through this fight when you’re hopelessly outclassed in versatility?

I know that Jin has a lot of powers he can use, considering he has every ability in his verse, and I only posted maybe a tenth of them. But you have not directly shown resistance feats to some of the major abilities he has, which besides reality warping is causality manipulation, concept manipulation (specifically miracles, karma, samsara, death, brahman), and power stealing + copying. The rest of your rebuttals in this section run into a similar problem.

What is the “standard level of a time stop”? These abilities vary, like what is the range? And resisting time manipulation and transcending it aren’t the same thing, think of it like a stick figure being on paper and if you were to draw a circle around them. That would essentially be a wall for them they can’t get around, or even if they could get through one can they get through three more? But for us as 3rd dimensional beings such a thing wouldn’t be an obstacle for us, as we dimensional transcend it altogether.

Same thing applies here, although Hit’s time manipulation has worked on people who are higher dimensional, can create time as he could use his time abilities in a void without time or space, can create a parallel world with his power and Jiren still transcended his time powers altogether.

I don’t see this being much of an issue.

A rather disingenuous question. Standard time stop is your average first use of it, without layering multiple time stops on each other to counter characters with resistance like Mori did. I don't see how the range is relevant at all. It's not an ability whose potency increases with range, time is literally just stopped.

That analogy is terrible. Resisting time stop requires transcending time. You can't differentiate them. If you can move through a moment of stopped time or operate in spaces with no time at all, your existence isn't bound to the space-time axis and your actions aren't dependent on the flow of time. Characters who's actions are dependent on the flow of time cease all function when time is stopped, because it's an aspect of reality that they can only exist as a function of.

Mori triple-layered time stop to incapicate characters that transcended time and resisted two layers of time stop. Not only would Vegeta get frozen but I would argue Hit and Jiren get frozen too, since Mori can just keep stacking it if they adapt.

And? How long did it take them? And aren’t there like millions at least of them? Their individual power doesn’t need to be as high as universal if there are swarms of them. And did they destroy all of the matter in the universe or did they destroy all the space-time that makes up the universe as well? I shouldn’t have to tell you how different those things are, and how often stuff like the latter are done in DBS.

Their power isn't relevant here honestly, I'm just citing them for the time manip scaling.

So let's talk about the biggest fish I haven't friend yet: Hakai and existence erasure.

If Vegeta can resist Hakai, he should be fine here.

Hakai

Not only would Hakai not work on Jin, but Vegeta can't resistance Mori's existence erasure/death manipulation. Mujin resisted existence erasure twice (1, 2) and Mori still forced the concept of death directly onto him despite his persistence. Your feats aren't good enough.

Speed

Are you implying what I shown isn’t evidence of being higher dimensional? Something to remember is we are 3 dimensional beings, it’s beyond our comprehension to actually imagine something that literally transcends us. In fact there isn’t a commonly agreed idea as to what the 5th dimension is unlike how the fourth is agreed to be time, so not every character needs to portray it the same. But yea, being a higher dimensional being means you transcend things like time and space, which I did prove for Vegeta.

Like Jiren is confirmed to transcend time multiple times, and despite Hit being in a pocket space Jiren casually was still able to interact with him. Transcending the 4th dimension is 5th dimensional, and as I shown to you otherworld is a higher plane of existence than the mortal universe.

If it transcends dimensions that can’t be perceived in the mortal world that means this it goes beyond dimensions we already can’t see, like the 4th dimension and if we took it being plural as literal you could assume 6th. Which again lines up with what the screenwriter for the anime(I have anime feats) had stated.

Goku has outright confirmed time isn’t something that exists in otherworld in the original Japanese text, which is why his going SSJ3 drained all the time he had when he was dead.

And this stuff shouldn’t be a surprise, like in this same arc we have Gotenks casually busting out of the HTC by screaming. A dimension that has been sometimes referred to as the dimension of time.

So as I said already, Goku was going to destroy a realm that is at least 5th dimensional in his fight with Beerus. Vegeta should have no problem interacting with Jin Mori at all. Hell if we were taking things at face value MUI Goku/Jiren are said to transcend the gods, who are from such higher planes I shown.

I mean if transcending time is your only benchmark for being 5th dimensional then that's fine, it just means Jin is 6th or 7th dimensional because he's imperceptible to characters that do that. Nirvana has one-way interactions with the rest of creation, and Gods in GoH (really all inhabitants of the 7 Heavenly Realms) are 5D by your standards due to existing outside of time and space conventions.

This has me scratching my head. Cause I obviously made it clear that this feat isn’t the best feat in the speed section, so I have no idea why you targeted it specifically.

Because it's the only one you've posted besides moving faster than teleportation which Jin's clone has already done.

I don’t actually believe your calc would be correct to begin with as it’s not ki leaving a universe, it’s ki traveling outside of the physical universe and into the center of a much larger one than ours. But anyway, even ignoring the time skips and buffs, as I said Goku was matching Hit’s time skipping with sheer speed. This was even stated by King kai as Goku “forcing his way into the future”, all with his raw speed. Big numbers are cool and all, but ultimately the level of speed Goku operates on can’t be quantified which is why I’m not going to bother with numbers.

That’s why I also mentioned Granola’s having “faster than instant“ techniques, cause if taken at face value add credence to what I’m talking about. And for what it is worth, like I said we agreed on anime/manga feats and the original Z movies are canon to the anime as proven when Garlic Jr has a filler anime arc. Which I bring up because in M6 we see Meta Cooler grabbing Goku mid instant transmission and Goku intercepting Meta Cooler mid instant transmission as a ssj.

So yeah, billions of times faster than Vegeta you are not. You also said your best feat for skill was near your conclusion so I’ll address it here since it has to do with your combat speed

This is it? I like how 1) You didn't even make an attempt to counter omnipresence, which is good because really, what are you supposed to say? I don't blame you. But 2) How is this better than what I posted? So it's ki traveling outside a universe into a larger one... cool. Not sure why that would be faster than the speed of the big bang and expansion of space when we know the timeframe for your feat isn't nearly as small as the inflationary epoch (10−36 seconds.) So as far as quantifiable speed is concerned, Jin has you beat by 3.3 trillion times.

Your next feat is Goku matching Hit's time skipping with sheer speed which is not quantifiable. I don't have any problem with you asserting that you wouldn't lose in speed because of an unquantifiable feat, if what you're trying to do is acknowledge speed as a factor of time and irrelevant to characters who exist outside/beyond it. But immeasurable speed or inaccessible speed or whatever is still clearly inferior to omnipresence... especially a character like Nirvana Mori who is omnipresent through TIME and can exist at any and every point in time simultaneously. He could attack you one-sidedly before this fight even began.

As I shown before UE Vegeta is relative with a current MUI Goku in speed, but why is that impressive? Well we already went through Goku’s skill feat of most notably taking on hit who was many tiers beyond him in stats(he just bullied a SSB Vegeta) while Goku himself was in his base. Managing to predict and keep up with hit who was skipping forward into time, Goku was a near equal to someone massively outstating him and using time manipulation all because of his skills. Yet Whis still exclaims this level of skill/combat speed is too slow, and that they must train for actions without thinking to massively improve their combat abilities.

He is referring to Ultra Instinct, an angelic technique that Gods who have been around longer than the dinosaurs haven’t been able to master.

And while not Ultra Instinct it was remarkably close, Master Roshi(baseline LS/FTL) was able to dodge attacks from Jiren due to it. Let me reiterate with an inferior technique to UI Master Roshi(who is around LS) manages to avoid attacks from Jiren who benefits from the speed scaling I’ve already gone over even when suppressed.

When Goku attains even the imperfect UI in the manga he pretty moved was FTE to Jiren

And with MUI?

Remember that despite Goku’s skill and speed even SSBKKx10 couldn’t even tag Jiren once, but his speed with UI allows him to do the above. And this isn’t even the perfected MUI he attains later, I don’t think Jin is faster than Vegeta at all.

Mori's feats of effective speed through skill easily top MUI. While he was in his depowered mid tier state he was capable of wrecking Dean Ockam with Recoilless who was using future sight to see into the future and copy Jin's skills in advance---while also wearing the suit of armor Jin had in his prime---which comes with a form called speed mode that makes you vastly MFTL.

I think copying someone's skill from the future is just as good if not better than skipping through time. In particular, the Dean feat is much better than the Hit feat because Goku canonically has better stats than Hit while Mori canonically had worse stats than almost everyone he fought that arc up to Mujin. Mori also ripped up the armorsuits despite it having feats of withstanding two planets crashing into each other at MFTL speeds, and he did it through skill. Not to mention Dean stated he couldn't copy Recoilless even though he could copy entire powers and skills and Jin was countering his predictions in the future. Bear in mind this was much before Jin even attempted the skill tree training.

Strategy/Conclusion

I want to make it clear that even though this is my third and final post, this is the first post in which I'm actually quote rebutting your arguments. Most of your counters made against my strategy are repetitive as they're conclusions reached based on the contents of the (very short) debate. So I kind of want to sum up my strategy and conclusion together with an analysis of the debate.

  • Your vision of this fight, your argument for winning, and your two win conditions comes down to "I'm more powerful than you, GG". All you've done in your two posts in regards to making a case for Vegeta winning is scale him vastly beyond universal well into higher end multiversal, and use this to sidestep having to confront Jin's hax using the DB power/hax argument. You also briefly touched on some rather weak versatility and underwhelming skill (comparatively).
  • By doing this however you shortened the complexity of the debate into a few key points that should be easy to follow for everyone. Those points are:
    • Will Vegeta's power nullify all Jin's hax here?
    • Can Jin deal with Vegeta's power advantage?
  • Speed isn't something that matters too much at this tier, but I maintain a firm grip on that category belonging to me if it ever you ever want it to matter. Because quantifiably, you can't produce any shred of evidence matching 3 undecillion times FTL, and for the unquantifiable, you also can't produce any shred of evidence matching omnipresence.
  • Jin's skill substitutes his need for having a power advantage or using stats at all. He has plenty of fights where his skill has allowed him to defeat stronger and faster characters, and physically incapacitate characters when he literally was incapable of generating the strength or force to damage them. So he would be able to deal with Vegeta's power advantage. Jin already outfought a character who was so much stronger than him that he nearly died just from being in his presence, so you can't win that argument.
  • Vegeta's power wouldn't nullify Jin's hax even if I steelman that argument, due to Jin's hax having equal or better feats than the hax that DB characters have resisted when he was in a weaker form. And Jin has hax that can't be resisted like power copying. Copying an ability isn't something you do to someone, is something you add to yourself. So things like Vegeta's damage absorption, depowering, and Hakai would just get copied or stolen and added to Jin's entire verse worth of powers.
  • Vegeta has no counter or feats against conceptual attacks based karma, miracles/probability, death, or time stop that works on characters who transcend time and resist time stop.
  • Vegeta has no counter to true law manipulation, physics manipulation, and the reality warping at Jin's level hasn't been resisted. He has literally zero answer to the Jin Hoechook which just straight up removes your malice and intent to harm me.
  • Mori forced the the concept of death onto a character who resisted existence erasure twice, the second time being the karmic cycle existence erasure that releases you from samsara. Erasing someone that resists hakai is target practice in comparison.
  • I'm still not convinced your dimensionality scaling matches Jin, as his feat is extremely explicit and shows the one-sided, one-way nature of his interactions with everything else that exists. And if you paid attention to my opener where I broke down the Buddhist/Hindu concepts you know Nirvana is imperceptible and completely unreachable to everything else in the world, which GoH demonstrates perfectly. Since transcending time is your only benchmark for being 5D (since time is the fourth dimension as you point out) then Jin is still inaccessible to Vegeta, as he's dimensions above the Gods in GoH that do that already. Keep in mind those faeiries that transcend time are Tathagata's weapons. Tathagata himself was the previous Supreme God, and this is what happened when Jin graced him with his presence before ascending to Nirvana.

Even if Vegeta can perceive Jin, which he can't, then he would just fall down and worship him and lose any ability to actually engage in a fight.

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Once again don’t agree with all the scaling but damn the replies are great! Good job y’all!

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I’ll have to sit down and read this.

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God damn

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@higherpower: Danm... every time i feel this dude is at losing end he comes back with goated respond

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Good cav

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🐼🍿

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I am enjoying this

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#72  Edited By TheWatcherKing

Final chapter on the tale of destruction and rebirth

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Power(Skill was addressed)

First I want to make note of two things for the voters, first thing is when Vulcan and I were setting this debate up he Fervently insisted that he thought Jin was finite universal/multi universal but he wants to try the one up game to argue having a larger cosmology than DB has. Which is fine, I promised in my last post if this is made who can get closer to infinity it’s about automatic loss for him and I’ll be proving that in a minute.

Second, it’s quite funny you say I didn’t address skill but you’re the only one that hasn’t. I talked about your best feat(according to you) meanwhile your absolutely never put forth even the slightest bit of effort to counter my skill feats like Goku adapting to someone who was skipping time and who he had to go SSG to compare power wise. All you’ve done is keep asserting Jin Mori is more skilled and destroys Vegeta because he can fight people far above himself in stats, which I proven Goku and Master Roshi could do and Goku has lost to Vegeta in skill. The irony is palpable, like Hit was able to react to SSBKx10 which as I said before SSG alone allowed Goku to jump from (in base large planet level, SSJ3 was multi solar system level but SSG doesn’t stack on that form) to being able to destroy the macrocosm and nullifying attacks on that scale.

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Large planet level to cancelling attacks that could destroy a cosmological structure not only MASSIVELY DWARFING the universe but dimensionally transcending all the dimensions that exist in the universe and a universe that orbits the macrocosm 1/10th it’s size(which again bigger than the universe). Not only that but Goku was drawing blood from Hit with his strikes in his base form….. but on top of the blatantly mismatched stats hit is SKIPPING TIME.

Hit is a 1,000 year old assassin with a power gap bigger planet to universal, and is blatantly moving forward in time but can’t even keep up with Goku because of his sheer skills. Hit even advancing his time skip can’t manage to tag Goku, both fighting evenly

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And I’ll throw in an extra skill feat, this is one you as an Afro Samurai debater would especially appreciate.

Goku was able to beat Cell in skill who has the collective knowledge and abilities of ALL of the Z fighters when Cell was outnumbering him with clones and Goku conceded cell was stronger than he is. Think about how insane this is, Goku and all of his friends have been training all of their lives to be the best under the heavens (and in the heavens in Goku’s case especially) yet Cell not only has all of Goku’s skills but the skills of all of his friends combined into one body. And to top that off is STRONGER than Goku, and outnumbered Goku. Yet Goku managed to defeat them, and Vegeta called this level of skill basic

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Vegeta scaled to this level of skill (fought evenly in the buu saga) and yet Hit was clowning on a weakened Vegeta and Goku fought Hit nearly evenly despite skipping time and a huge stat disparity. Despite that as shown in my first post, Vegeta has outperformed Goku(seeing through Jiren’s defenses when in SSB but Goku in SSBKKx20 couldn’t tag Jiren while suppressed) and Vegeta beat Goku in DBSSH which is the most recent versions when both in base. Goku also admitted that every time they fight Vegeta finds weaknesses in his fighting that Goku didn’t even know he had(Vegeta says the same, showing Vegeta is>= Goku). Further made clear in the Moro arc when Vegeta mastered a technique Goku couldn’t(Goku mastered UI in less than an hour when GoDs couldn’t after almost 100 million years of existence).

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Vegeta is more skilled than what your argument requires, and keep in mind I only just talked about the skill of Goku without UI. UI allowed Goku to blitz someone who he couldn’t even touch despite his prior level of skill, and allowed someone who is at best LS dodge attacks from someone you stated is so fast they’re faster than characters already clocking in at immeasurable speeds(Master Roshi/Jiren). And this wasn’t true UI, but an imperfect mortal version that follows the same principles but is inferior by a wide margin.

Vegeta shown parity with MUI Goku in UE, and started to outperform him as his EU was evolving. Your feats of skill are just bridging Hyde stat disparities, Goku is bridging stat disparities with people dimensionally transcending him. Make of that what you will…..

The difference in power between Jin and Mujin was so great that Jin could literally die in his presence. From a whisper or a graze. This is the same fantasy scenario you envision for Vegeta and Nirvana Mori here ("the disparity is so great his presence could threaten death for you"):

Being broken from an attack grazing you isn’t the same as literally powering up and one shotting someone, which is what Vegeta did to Toppo in an inferior form to what Vegeta has here. And that link never said anything about a “whisper”.

Your entire argument literally already happened to Jin Mori in canon

One he didn’t win.

You’ve dug yourself into an impossible hole. You doubled down on having a power advantage which I’m no longer contesting as it plays directly in my favor.

Thank you for conceding Jin Mori is weaker than Vegeta even though you walk it back within this same post cause consistency transcends you like Vegeta transcends Jin.

Your only options are to1)argue UE Vegeta is more powerful than Nirvana Mori (the guy operating at 250,000x multiversal here)by an order greater than novemdecillionsusing objectively quantified numbers and not relying on largely undefined and arbitrary gaps between characters

You shot yourself in the foot by trying to make this debate a debate of infinite power as I’ll prove later, the higher you try to go the more you’re playing into my game. Numerical values no longer matter once the debate is about levels of infinity as the disparity is infinite.

Engage in a skill debate and argue that Vegeta is more skilled than Jin, which we both know is an area you stand absolutely no chance in so don't even waste my time

Says who? I never conceded skill favoring Jin, the only one who has conceded arguments is you. And even if you did pretend Jin Mori is more skilled to act like the difference is large is dishonest, when in fact your best skill feats aren’t better than mine. Fighting someone who (according to you) is at a level of immeasurable speeds when only LS is a bigger disparity than anything you can put forth, don’t even try to deny this. Hiding behind large numbers in hopes you can wow the voters won’t change the objective reality you’re faced with.

backtrack and argue that Vegeta is actually weaker than Jin, which just amounts to a concession because Jin's skill wouldn’t stop increasing.

Lol? I couldn’t argue Vegeta is weaker if I tried, and Vegeta’s power and skill won’t stop increasing. And by arguing you’re more skilled than Vegeta exploits the mechanics of the saiyans, as the more they’re on the back foot the more they grow past their opponents.

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Especially when amplified by the fact that Vegeta will absorb any attack you launch at him only making the stat difference even more firmly in my favor.

For the record, I don't actually believe you have a power advantage.

You’ve made it clear multiple times you need stat enhancements to compare, even though Vegeta’s multipliers are much greater so this doesn’t work.

Pay closer attention.The technique he used to complete that feat was the Jin Hoechook. I perfectly broke down already in my last post what this technique is, how it works (its relation between strength and skill), and how it evolves withnumerousexamples. It's his signature Renewal Taekwondo move. Jin performing it as the Supreme God after completing the skill tree and becoming a martial arts God is why it was so powerful in that instance and warped reality on a universal scale. The moral of the story is maybe don't completely skip my skill section next time

I love the snarkiness, however you yourself defined it as

This came afterthe kick that purified the universe and purged it of all malice,which I would consider a universal reality-warping feat tied into his skill/strength

Which is a problem for me. He is a reality warper you argue at universal, and keep in mind this is the baseline of all your universal or above arguments meaning this must be absolutely unquestionable cause without this all of your upscaling suffers.

Just because it’s a technique doesn’t mean he isn’t using his powers like reality warping, which you yourself say it’s a feat for his reality warping in addition to his strength/skill. If it’s a shared feat between those two aspects how can you quantify how much of it is his sheer stats? Reiterating “oh he’s a supreme god” “martial arts god” doesn’t change the problem I have. Like imagine if someone had the ability to destroy a concept with sheer power, and then also gained powers that allow them to alter reality. If they destroy a concept throughout all creation and you attribute it to both how much of it is raw strength? How much of it is his powers?

Honestly can’t this simply be his powers and skills? Where is his raw strength coming into play? This is questionable at its finest and yet you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too, which doesn’t work.

I interpreted "nearly infinite" as trending towards infinity,

That’s still not infinite, in fact that’s a contradiction to infinite if anything.

So in other words, if the Universe 7 macrocosm is infinite in size, then it's the same size as asingleGoH universe…

Lol, except I never said it was the macrocosm that was infinite in size. I said the universe, all the descriptions I gave are for the mortal physical universe…. Which is exactly why I said do yourself a favor and don’t make this an infinity comparison cause you will lose. Otherworld is a meta physical realm which is BIGGER than the universe, as I said literally one planet in otherworld is equal to the previously established infinite universe.

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  • Infinitely expansive [living universe] governed by the kai’s(gods, like Zamasu/Elder Kai/Supreme Kai/King Kai, etc) and they’re in other world.
  • The Universe- endless

And as I shown in my second post it was stated to have infinite galaxies.

But otherworld? An infinite universe is the size as a single planet there

You fumbled in the most amazing way possible, because there are such a thing as higher levels of infinity. Like negative numbers go on infinitely just like regular numbers, but they’re all infinitely below the number 1. Or like how the space between 1 and 2 goes on infinitely (1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc). Meaning the macrocosm as a whole is a much higher level of infinity given an infinite universe can fit within otherworld, and the Supreme Kai world orbits an infinite cosmological structure while being 1/10th of infinity, which still is infinite. While there is still no such thing as nearly infinite, wanna know something? That makes you many infinite times weaker than SSG Goku from the first arc of super

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As ALL OF UNIVERSE 7 was going to be annihilated and turned into an empty void as I proven in my first post. Your need to try to overwhelmingly win every category instead of picking your battles has just meant that playing your game upscales EVERY feat I’ve shown infinitely.

And it gets so much worse….. remember Zamasu? He didn’t fuse with one macrocosm, but the entire timeline which includes at least 12 infinite macrocosms(or 18 if Zeno didn’t delete the original 6 that also existed in that timeline).

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Zamasu was not only everything in a timeline that contained multiple sets of infinite macrocosms(which contain their own levels of infinity inside of them) but was spreading to all other timelines merging with them. Should I bring up how we see the 12 macrocosms near Zeno’s palace and there’s a larger cosmos surrounding his palace?

And in spite of all of what I said, a SUPRESSED Jiren glaring produces more power than anything Supreme Kai has ever seen, who was ground zero for the Zamasu merger.

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Pick your poison Vulcan, you want to argue infinity then Vegeta is several levels of infinity above Jin Mori ….. or you can backtrack and concede that doing this did you no favors in which case you’re still looking at a disparity of power so great Vegeta powering up knocks you out or kills you altogether. Also remember Toppo warped the world of void which transcends all of the macrocosms and is said to be infinite nothingness with his hakai, and yet he couldn’t destroy Vegeta. In fact Jiren’s walking and Goku’s presence shook it, so your best feats are trumped by UIO level characters walking/existing. And SSBE Vegeta by Moro arc>UIO Moro arc Goku>>>ToP UIO Goku.

Either way, this isn’t much of a crossroads.

And asingleGoH universe has a much more complex cosmology than you think.

A single macrocosm has countless dimensions of time littered across the mortal realm(one is on earth, and in the last two arcs we see random planets with their own). There are also realms like the demon realm where the laws of physics resemble magic more than anything, Gogeta and Broly accidently entered a higher realm we had never seen before when they were clashing and it was promptly destroyed as shown in my last post. There are tons of such things that make the macrocosm much more complex than I brought up, and they’re all contained within the mortal realm.

And asingleGoH universe has a much more complex cosmology than you think. There arethree realms within a GoH universe: A Human Realm, a Sage (Monster) Realm, and a Heavenly/Divine Realm. Then there's an Afterlife (Nirvana) and a Hell (Naraka). I'll use this rebuttal as an opportunity to address your 5D scaling as well.

From what I’m seeing and what you’re saying all of these realms exist within an infinite singular GoH universe, which means to me there’s no point talking about how many finite dimensions exist within a single infinite universe. Like I said you could fit multiple GoH universes inside of otherworld which is able to contain Heaven which is as wide as the universe(infinite).

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Mori specifically stated that he only summoned the best of the best, which means there are much more timelines and different versions that he could've selected from, increasing the number into a plurality thatshould be in the dozens.

It doesn’t tell us anything other than there’s more that we didn’t see. But this still brings to a smaller cosmology, cause many sets of infinity are all fitting inside each other in the dragon ball cosmology. Like I wouldn’t be surprised if a dozen heavens or more could fit within Otherworld, and the macrocosm is everything you see above. From otherworld/mortal world/demon realm and the supreme kai world is 1/10th the collective size of those.

Then the timeline could fit 18 of these(zeno erased 6) and Zamasu merged with the timeline, which outside of all those infinite macrocosms can also fit the world of void which is a higher dimensional structure than the macrocosms(which are already stated to be 6th dimensional) and is also infinite. The timeline has all of that, Zamasu was merging with all timelines.

I’m telling you, this levels of infinity game isn’t what you should play with me.

Keep in mind thatworld and universe are interchangeable words in Korean, Chinese, and Japanese

That doesn’t mean they’re as big as the universe, nor can you in any way quantify their size. Words having multiple meanings is not a new thing, and anyway I must call out your translations. Where did you get them from? I downloaded an app for translating images and paid for it, looking at the images you gave gives a significantly different meaning for almost all of them.

1-4. Clearly isn’t talking about the universe being endless

5-6. Says nothing about “infinite heavens”.

I will give you credit one of your scans does say something about being “unending”

But what is? What’s the context? Absolutely nothing I’m seeing implies GoH has an infinite universe, and because I like to be thorough I also had it translated on Reddit and got similar results. Posted in the same order you did

So basically a regular fight between two GoDs would destroy your entire franchise, there’s no evidence of your character scaling to an infinite cosmology at least none that you have shown so far.

A level of power anime Jiren glares away.

, but Jin’spoint of viewin comparison to an entire reality transcends an entire cardinality of infinities

No

Unless of course, you want to make the argument that UE Vegeta transcends the conceptual and metafictional confines of the entire Dragon Ball franchise and views Super charactersas characters

I love how you ignore all of the arguments for the verse being higher dimensional and just focus on Jiren’s transcending time (Hit’s time manipulation has worked on people higher than 4D). You don’t even deny what I said regarding how dimensions higher than 3D are things we can’t comprehend, authors/writers have different ideas as to what being higher dimensional entails. I don’t have to show the same exact things for two characters to be similar, if I’m being blunt Jin Mori decently large fish in an aquarium transcending all of that doesn’t mean anything to Vegeta who I proved isn’t a 3D being.

I have shown

  1. Jiren being stated to transcend time by Vados, Supreme Kai says time is nothing to his strength.
  2. Goku in the first arc of super is going to destroy a realm which transcends dimensions imperceptible to mortals, and a screenwriter suggests it’s 6D.
  3. Another statement aside from those two in my second point says it’s a higher level of reality, Goku states time doesn’t exist there.
  4. Characters are already showing they can tear through the dimension of time by screaming about candy
  5. Vegeta destroys a place where time is created by charging up
  6. Goku black(a kai) unleashes an attack that transcends his own comprehension, when he is one of the gods from a world that transcends dimensions imperceptible to mortals. None of the other Kai’s understand what he did either
  7. The world of void exists outside of all these places and transcends them
  8. Infinite Zamasu merged with all of this, and yet he’s inferior to Jiren looking at the spirit Bomb.

If a screenwriter stated they live in a world that’s 6D, and black does things that transcend the understanding of those gods when a massively inferior Goku (SSG against Beerus) was going to destroy that realm why are you trying to pretend the only thing I shown was Jiren transcending time? I show 7 or 8 different and you focus on the baseline…. Which could scale higher if it works on higher dimensional beings but I digress. All you have is looking down on a very small pitiful world but that means absolutely nothing for characters where they also have evidence for being higher dimensional.

Limit removers as a technique are perfectly in character for Mori to use.

This is not a misunderstanding, this is you walking back your claims when it’s convenient. Note I never claimed it was out of character, nor do I care what you argue regarding it, you said it was out of character when I at that point hadn’t even addressed a single thing you said. At which point you’re needing to debunk your own words

So I don't know where you got it from that he didn't use it then.

He was about to, he didn’t.

You're clearly confused about what the stipulations in the OP mean for the version of Jin you're facing here. Pictured above is Supreme God Mori who is much weaker than Nirvana Mori who's canonically unbounded by any physical restrictions or logic in the verse. The only reason why he didn't use limit removers anyway was because of the rebound damage from using them before. If the OP states that Jin is at full power and fighting to the best of his abilities, then why would that damage carry over or even be applicable/relevant to a formless version that's a conceptual nigh-omnipotent God relative to everything we see in GoH before? Think really hard before you answer

Gaslighting doesn’t work on me, this isn’t me being confused it’s you being stupid. You said it was out of character, as I already screenshotted not me.

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Being “determined to win!!!” or “starting off at their best” doesn’t bypass the stipulation that these characters are still doing what is in character for them. I don’t care if Jin Mori uses it, I never said I had a problem with it. But don’t pretend like I said it was out of character when the clown who said it was you, you said it when you had this version in mind. None of the stipulations posted change this, and as for what you posted I’ll leave that to the voters I didn’t have an opinion one way or another.

My argument is that Mori would combine limit removers with infinite cloning in the same way that Satan did. Nirvana Mori should be able to make an infinitely spawning amount of clones considering he himself is infinite and Satan who is much weaker made 245 quintillions. Even if we use 245 quintillions as a baseline, all 245 quintillion clones each using 250,000x limit removers (to their multi-universal base power) attacking collectivelyis 61 quintillion times multiversal. This line of argumentation is directly dependent on your rebuttal to my cloning but I'll address that and your damage absorption in the hax/versatility section.

That’s not how it works, first off you need to assert they can all be made in an instant when speed been forfeited and you’re banking on being omnipresent (which doesn’t mean much…. Being omnipresent on a 3rd dimensional plane doesn’t mean anything when talking about two beings that dimensionally are similar). And none of the clones would be at this level of stats, unless they pull a black sperm and merge they aren’t collectively anything. And considering you wanted an infinity debate Vegeta is infinitely above a quintillion clones, and nothing stops them all from being hakai’d from existence. Toppo’s Hakai changed an endless void so AoE isn’t a problem

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Plus as I said, clones don’t work on Vegeta.

The more you prove the power gap to be, the more you prove that Jin destroys him in skill. You'll never see him attack, never strike back, and never avoid a hit.

Prove this is the case against someone infinitely stronger, faster, and more durable in a literal sense than anyone in GoH. That’s also just not how it works.

Versatility

I'm pretty sure it's never actually stated anywhere in any DB manga, anime, guidebook, or game that a character becomes immune to any and all hax so long as they're stronger than the person who's using it. Becauseif you knew such a statement existed, you would have posted it.

I like how I say one thing, and you distort it into something else.

Me: it’s consistently shown that when there’s a wide enough power gap the hax will be ignored

Where did I EVER say it was a stated law of the verse? I have literally never seen a bigger offender of the misrepresentation fallacy, what I said is consistently it is shown if there is a big enough power gap hax WILL NOT work. And I listed forms of hax as examples, I’m not saying all hax in existence I gave specific examples the list just happens to not small.

Which is why your response to this is god awful and stupid in every possible way, not only because you include examples where the power gap isn’t very large but some of the moves are explicitly for dealing with stronger opponents which would be an exceptionNOT the norm. I shown 12 instances across DB and you only made a decent response to one, and then not only that but you have the audacity to respond by listing an occurrence from DBGT? This is worse than using Thor nearly killing Thanos in the MCU as a way to say comic Thor can beat IG Thanos if he goes for his head, I can’t put into words how absolutely idiotic bringing up a non canon continuation of Z which is made even more irrelevant by the events of Super. And with that said let’s look at specific examples of what you had to say

DB characters from any kind of hax whatsoever is ridiculous, especially when what you're really doing is taking specific feats of specific hax resisted by specific characters and scaling that resistance to every character in your universe so long as you can prove they're generically more "powerful" than characters fromdifferentfictional universes. How does that work?!

Very simply if it’s consistently shown within one series that a big enough power gap affords you resistance against a large enough variety of hax, then in an instance where there is a large enough power gap you can argue the resistance that you scale to. It’s very simple, if everyone uses the same power source(Ki) and ki allows one to defend against reality warping, time manipulation, existence erasure then if someone is stronger than a character outside of their verse obviously this can still apply.

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Especially if we have multiple characters failing to effect someone specifically being stated to fail due to that power. In the case of Hit we can apply that anyone stronger than Hit would also bypass it inside of DB’s power system, it isn’t that complicated. And we have other forms of hax explicitly not working for that reason, like multiple wish granting dragons with reality warping/causality manipulation which in an of itself is an all encompassing hax(as you yourself stated). Shenron specifically said he couldn’t kill Vegeta for instance with his reality warping at a time when both were in the planetary stage, now Toppo is explicitly not able to destroy Vegeta’s attacks because explicitly “they’re too powerful for him to destroy”.

https://streamable.com/u9prri

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Your logic here is that because character A in universe A resisted hax from fodder (relative to him) in universe A, he can resist a completely different type of hax from character B in universe B as long as you prove to yourself that character B is weaker

No no no, this is false.

I shown a large list of different kinds of hax for a reason to show it’s a trend if someone resists

  • Reality warping
  • Mental stuff
  • Soul destruction
  • Existence erasure
  • time manipulation
  • casualty manipulation
  • Toon force(more specific reality warping)
  • Spatial manipulation
  • Power nullification
  • Law manipulation

Then you have a wide enough variety of hax to say that if ALL of that gets resisted because of purely being stronger, most hax wouldn’t work on you as most hax is going to fall in those categories. Hell, really all hax falls into reality warping and if there is no way that a reality warper can kill someone no matter what because they’re simply too strong then most offensive hax is out of the window right there(Shenron/Porunga).

If you had some super specific type of hax then no I wouldn’t apply that, but even Akira Toriyama has stated in battle the most important things in battle are the size of your ki(how much power you have) and your control over it.

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Ki control is something the characters on earth mastered back in DB, and Vegeta has learned it as well(he currently has better spirit control than Goku). Which can add credence to the idea that above all in DB power> hax cause as I shown in my post Jiren was powerful and negating hax not just cause his Ki was so dense but because of his Ki control.

And Vegeta’s spirit control is far greater than Jiren after the Moro arc as I proven in my very first post.

This argument assumes that the laws in universe A are the default laws in any cross-universe battle setting, and it also ignores the possibility that character B's combat effectiveness comes from their hax instead of their power.

This doesn’t require the rules to be the same if the power system is a defensive energy that has shown protection against a wide range of hax. And I’m only scaling them to the level of resistance I can prove, if someone surpassing that then I won’t argue Vegeta scales to it.

For instance, there’s a wall level character with existence erasure. Vegeta has shown resistance existence erasure on a higher level(Toppo altering the world of void), but while we haven’t seen Jiren resist Hakai we know he’s stronger than a GoD and scales above other characters who have been proven to take existence erasure (Freiza/Goku/Vegeta). So I would say that if the wall level characters feats are on that scale Jiren should be fine, but if this was a multiversal character with better feats than anyone Jiren scales to I would not argue his scaling is enough even if Jiren can be argued stronger than them.

In short, ki has shown it can protect users from hax if they’re sufficiently stronger than the person with hax but I’m only scaling that hax resistance to the level of hax I can prove. If your feats are better than the hax I can prove Vegeta scales to then it doesn’t matter, but the problem for you is you haven’t. Vegeta has resisted existence erasure warping infinite voids, and Toppo’s even created a bunch of stars filling that infinite void.

Proving a power advantage to compensate for a hax disadvantage is literally inverting the purpose of hax: hax is something that can compensate for a power disadvantage with a specific ability that requires resistance due to it ignoring conventional durability, the very thing that raw power targets.

You completely misunderstood me but that all depends on the characters, if I can prove a verse works on the idea that being stronger means hax won’t work on them unless there’s not a huge difference in power then that’s the principle those characters work on. It’s built within DB’s power system as their ki is defensive in nature thus why Gohan can literally ignore his powers being drained when in SSJ2 but when SSJ he gets dropped instance. What changed other than his level of power? Absolutely nothing.

Jiren literally ignored an attack that bypasses durability just like you said…. Why? Cause he’s too strong for it, and ftr Goku has negged it once he powered up in his fight with Jiren, since you are trying to argue resistances are race exclusive for some reason.

Also, this creates a huge problem without equalizing verse energies. Characters often use energy sources exclusive to their franchise and abide by power systems that follow the rules of their verse. This poses a problem when pitting them against characters from different franchises when you make assertions like this. Verse equivalence should always be taken on a case-by-case basis, and for series like DragonBall we need to analyze how their energy works in comparison to who they're up against.

I still don’t think you’re getting it, I’m saying Vegeta benefits off the same resistance feats as others in DB cause their resistance comes from their power. It’s why Jiren ignored the Grand Priest’s disabling flight, cause he was too strong for it. And if Vegeta is stronger than Jiren…. He can do the same. I’m not debating the narrative of one verse against another, though again if Ki allows one to blanketly deal with hax across board even reality warping them the rules GoH works on doesn’t negate that unless you can prove the hax is more potent than what Vegeta can deal with. Which is why I went into detail about how strong the hax is

a sufficiently strong character would be able to withstand it even if they don't utilize spiritual energy because

??? Ki is spiritual energy, it’s literally life force. Which is why Vegeta said what he said to Moro about liberating all the life energy(ki), souls/spirit… they’re one and the same.

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Manipulating ones spiritual energy allows them to resist hax, and everyone in DB uses it.

In order to prove that Jin's hax wouldn't work on Vegeta, you need an explicit feat or statement demonstrating that Vegeta can not be affected by any power of any nature by simply being more powerful than the person using it. Hard evidence. Not something resisted by other characters that aren't him or that he doesn't share an identical powerset and genetic makeup with.

Genetic makeup? Most of the things I shown were by saiyans so what are you talking about? Goku/Gohan are both apart of the same race as Vegeta, some of them were specific feats from Vegeta like shenron. I shown Freiza resisting Hakai, but I also shown it for Goku and Vegeta and Vegeta performed better than base Goku did cause Vegeta is stronger than Goku in a higher form. The only feats that weren’t from a saiyan are Jiren and beerus, Jiren who resisted cause of his power and Vegeta scales over. And Beerus, who both utilize the same powerset (energy of destruction) and also Beerus is weaker than this version of Vegeta(in the anime Vegeta is almost Jiren level and he doesn’t have UE yet). So literally all of your complaints aren’t warranted, and I didn’t blanketly say no matter what form of hax it will always be resisted. Most forms of hax don’t work… and I shown most. Only really specific versions like abilities specifically for dealing with those stronger than you

There are just as many if not more counterexamples of hax working on stronger characters in Dragon Ball.

Quite audacious and wrong, quite frankly across all of all the franchise when there is a substantial difference you will resist the power of someone weaker, I’m not talking about barely being stronger but a significant difference which you ignored cause you lack intelligence. And considering I’ve actually consumed every bit of DB content from the games, movies, manga, anime, and LNs I’m more qualified to say that then someone who poorly skimmed some wiki pages for supposed anti showings.

But if this were the case,then why does Mafuba even exist?

This is specifically for dealing away stronger opponents than yourself at the cost of your life, thus Roshi died after doing it.

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In super because people have much more life force energy they don’t have to die, but that doesn’t negate the whole point of the move is dealing with stronger opponents than yourself. I wonder if you’re smart enough to know what an accidental fallacy is…. And notice how BFR isn’t allowed? Something you asked about

Someone as weak as Babidi can mind control people far stronger than Namek saga Frieza like Yakon, Pui Pui, or even characters around Cell tier like Dabura. Ironically, people ignore this and just defer to the feat of Vegeta resisting Babidi's mind control to further the power nullifies hax agenda. But arguing Vegeta resisted it by power is incredibly misleading since Vegeta himself stated "you may take over my body and soul, but not my pride" implying that it's strictly a willpower feat based on his Saiyan pride. Vegeta directly admitting his body is vulnerable tarnishes the argument that it's a resistance feat by sheer power. His pride is what overcame it.

First off, Babbidi being weaker than Freiza when he has not only shielded attacks from Vegeta’s suicide move but also a blast from Majin Buu?

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This same attack had Majin Vegeta as a SSJ2 in critical condition and had him decide to literally kill himself to try to take down buu, meanwhile Dabura got two shot by a not even serious Buu. So if anything Babbidi’s ki>>> anyone else you mentioned.

And as the scan I posted before says, ki is not just energy that fuels your body it also includes a mental side which allowed him to overpower babiddi

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His pride is apart of why his ki is so strong, in a literal sense it fuels his courage and that allowed him to overpower mind control. I don’t even know how overcoming hax was supposed to be used as an anti feat for resistance against hax? Cause get this…. Vegeta let babiddi in his head to begin with.

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It’s mind boggling what reading a series will tell you, but babiddi never would’ve gotten in Vegeta’s head if Vegeta didn’t let him in even though Vegeta had evil inside him which made him vulnerable. Know why? Cause Vegeta is too strong for him…..

Thank you for yet another example proving my point, on top of the Jiren/Goku instance against hit this makes 14 occurrences inside DB of power overcoming hax. Because Vegeta literally powers up when he resists Babiddi, meaning his amassing more power allowed him to resist

Captain Ginyu's Body Changes - When Ginyu was a frog with sub-human level power he was able to switch bodies with Tagoma with no issue.

This is the most straight up exception in DB, which again the whole point is to get stronger and stronger by finding stronger bodies to inhabit. But if you want we can tally this up alongside my showings and see which one is more numerous. Also it’s kinda hilarious to me that your arguments are stolen from a Reddit character rant page but I won’t hold it against you cause we both know you never read DB.

Guldo time stop and psychic abilities - On Namek, Gohan and Krillin far outstripped Guldo's level of power to the point that Guldo even admitted that a single attack from them would one shot him. But his time stop was still effective and he even immobilized them with his psychic ability.

How are you going to post the entire fight and lie? That’s actually offensive, Guldo never said that. The entire fight can be summed up as Guldo stopping time, them getting closer to him, and since it drains him a lot he freezes them and is about to kill them when Vegeta saves the duo. There’s no statement suggesting they have that much of a power gap over Guldo, and you have to have a substantial power gap to be ignoring hax. They didn’t…. right now you’re just using instances where hax is used and hoping something sticks. The reason recoome comments on their power levels being over 10,000 is cause that’s Guldo’s power level, Gohan had 14K and Krillin 13K. While yes they were stronger that’s not a huge difference in power, but let me ask you something. If I could show you someone resisting this very power because of how strong they were what would you say? Hypothetically speaking….

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…..cause there is a certain Z fighter who admitted their psychic abilities failed because someone was MUCH stronger, not slightly like with Guldo. You just strengthened my argument, cause you think resisting this form of hax with superior power is a valid example

Hyssop's absolute Zero - Hyssop froze Vegeta's arm to the bone and forced him to use Super Saiyan to break the ice. You've done me the honor of demonstrating just how powerful Vegeta is or scales to be even in base at all points throughout DBS, so I don't need to elaborate on this. The technique itself unbothered Vegeta, but considering he needed to powerup to break the ice its fair to assume he couldn't otherwise despite being stronger than him in base

????? What????

What are you doing right now? First, Vegeta literally never fights Hyssop directly until he goes SSJ, where are you getting the idea that base Vegeta was stronger than him? Vegeta quite literally only beats him when he is transformed and never fought him in his base form. Why did you say that?

Also….. does this not prove my point? Once he transformed the gap was big enough to overcome his move which chilled him to the bone and defeated him? How does this prove anything when there’s ZERO EVIDENCE Vegeta is stronger than him in base? Yeah I shown how strong Vegeta is… and in verse people can scale to him. So yeah this guy probably solos Jin Mori too, what’s your point? Imma say the tally is 16-1

The reason why Goku survived it was because his pure heart. This means thateven though he was much stronger than Devilman(he literally one-shot him after getting serious)without a pure heart he would have died. Master Roshi's description of the ability lets us know it's a hax that CLEARLY ignores power levels. Honestly, this one ability shuts down the whole "if you're strong enough you can resist any hax" argument by itself.

No the heck it doesn’t lmao. First off, Master Roshi never claimed it would kill anyone regardless of how strong they are so what the hell are you doing? He described an ability he had never seen first hand, and we as the audience never see it first hand cause it’s only used on Goku who doesn’t meet the qualifications for the move to do anything. You can’t prove it would one shot literally the entire cast of the series as long as they have some evil in them, that’s never been stated or implied. You literally just listed a random power and asserted it would one shot Goku if it worked…..it doesn’t matter if you think it would work the point is this is a meaningless example as it did nothing here. I have no idea why you even posted this, but I assume you’re very desperate again.

First, Vegito didn't accomplish that through strength

This one I’ll give you, I had forgotten about that statement. 16-2

but manga also explicitly contradicts this idea when Vegito needed toform a barrier beforehand to protect himself from Buu's absorption. Vegito was relieved when the barrier protected him from getting absorbed... which means he wouldn't have been able to no-sell Buu's absorption simply by being stronger than him.

This is another nothing point like the devil beam, he simply doesn’t know and why would he take a chance? No one had attempted to intentionally be absorbed at that point, so using a barrier and being glad it worked isn’t a point. They assumed when he dropped the barrier they defused cause of buu but it wasn’t until super we found out about Vegito having a time limit, which just shows how little how little they knew cause for 20 years it was assumed to be because of buu. We don’t have evidence one way or another what would happen

There are also some examples in Dragon Ball GT likeHaze Shenronusing his pollution hax to depower and weaken Pan and Goku until they were at his level. Pan was dominating him by herself and Haze Shenron is shown to be one of the physically weakest Shadow Dragons.

Absolutely, irredeemably pitiful. GT is it’s own Separate canon and I would’ve thought you knew better but clearly you’re not smart enough to know a non canon series that isn’t apart of Super’s continuity has absolutely nothing to do with this debate.

But it is kinda funny, because if I was using feats from GT saiyans have absolutely busted adaptation. Goku can’t be effected by any form of hax or technique if he’s experienced it before. Hell, he doesn’t even have to have experienced it before, he just has to know it exists and it will fail.

https://streamable.com/12u08h

But surely if I used this as a feat you would have an issue right? So why did you think this was okay? At this point you’ve essentially lost all points to your credibility. Like you briefly talk about the games but you realize in the games Goku and cast deal with people who are multiversal reality warpers with larger lists of hax than Jin Mori all cause they’re stronger? But you didn’t bring that up did you? No you picked non canon evidence that benefits you, but if you’re going to look at evidence that is worthless at least look at the whole picture because I promise you I can bring up even more feats for resisting hax as a result of your power than you can even imagine if I ignored what was and wasn’t canon like you do.

Eis Shenron was able to freeze Goku's hands and poison his eyes despite being weaker than SSJ4 Goku to the point that he was getting completely stomped even after Goku was blinded.

Wow, non canon example and you can’t even get it right that Eis doesn’t use poison. He literally just stabbed Goku in his eyes when he wasn’t expecting it.

Your entire argument is not something acknowledged within the verse

I love how you say that but the score is 16-2. I’ve provided 12 examples in my second post, 2 more here and you gave me 3 extra. You gave 2 valid counter points taking away from one of my original 12. How is this not a point that isn’t acknowledged in the verse? I literally posted AT stating above all your power and ki control are what matter most in winning fights, and ki control just is how well you suppress and release said power. He doesn’t say hax, and consistently in the story we have characters no selling hax all because they’re too strong. Hell UIO‘s whole thing is speed, and it was so much faster it dodged draining which really doesn’t even make sense. But this just proves that in dragon ball your power and speed can trump hax, we can make it 17 though with Gas resisting destruction because of being stronger.

This is such a shameless reach. Law manipulation? Power nullification? Really?

Like I said Whis stated abilities like flight are disabled

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You say it's those things instead of what its described to be ("increasing gravity in a given area") because it targeted the fighters and not the Supreme Kai and Beerus... when the Grand Priest specifically said that each fighters gravity is what was adjusted according to their planets?

Dude, earth’s gravity isn’t negating Goku’s ability to fly are you insane? In this same arc he was standing inside a black hole made by another contestant who held her own with Vegeta, and this is while massively weakened.

Vegeta was literally training in 400x Earth’s gravity in the Android saga, Planet Vegeta only has 10x earth’s gravity so even assuming both Goku/Vegeta are under that level of gravity they wouldn’t notice it, and would still be able to fly by your logic.

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idk how you’re going to say I’m wrong but then post proof I’m right

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Though I should point out the anime and manga do their own thing they are both canon, and it’s in the anime where we see Jiren floating. The manga saying “the space was specifically modified so they can’t resist the gravity” shows it wasn’t simply granting them the gravity of their home planet cause no matter what that wouldn’t stop Goku from being able to fly.

It doesn’t even make sense to think that as Grand Priest didn’t know specifically all who would be participating, so how could every contestant instantly have their home worlds gravity if not by a form of law manipulation that “everyone who is a contestant feels the gravity native to them” alongside banning flight? If it was merely great gravity then

  1. There wouldn’t be exceptions to who can and can’t fly
  2. The Grand Priest would have to have prior knowledge about every who would participate and he didn’t
  3. This wouldn’t disable the Z fighters ability to fly at all…. Even Android saga base vegeta trains at 400x darth’s gravity and he is still effortlessly able to fly. And this is pre ssj
  4. The anime, the version where Jiren is floating, specifically says flight is disabled

Honestly just actually watch the Tournament of Power, then your arguments will improve.

The law manipulation in GoHtranscends multiple universes and dimensions and is abundantly more explicit. This is straight up space and gravity manipulation. Jiren may have resisted it, but even if it was power nullification and law manipulation, it would just be at the same level as Ultio using Tam to remove the Taboo law

Broken link, and no. The Grand Priest’s power> anyone in GoH. And the WoV transcends everything in the DB macrocosm including the higher dimensional stuff

Sujin can also control the laws and physicsand space and time in an area where she becomes God, but she wasbarely able to hold off Ohkwang for a minute. Ohkwang wouldn't be able to stand in Supreme God Mori's presencewithout falling down to worship him.

Buuhan was warping space time across the universe so badly that the universe was going to collapse from alternate dimensions falling in, all from his sheer power.

Vegito still beat him down, yet Goku said even fusing wouldn’t allow him to take on Beerus. And after training for months with Whis Goku/Vegeta just barely got to the level they can sense a god right before RoF

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Before this even despite having god ki, neither of them could sense it because it was beyond their comprehension. This is after the macrocosm destruction feats, so hopefully you have dropped the levels of infinity for your sake.

Furthermore he cannot resurrect those who have died of natural causes (such as old age or sickness). When resurrecting multiple people, he can't resurrect anyone who has been dead for over a year.

First one is a limitation imposed by Kami as death is apart of life and shouldn’t be undone, only when it was unnaturally ended should one have the chance for resurrection. And even then they did bring back the creator of the dragon balls who died faster than he would’ve normally cause of stress Freiza gave him lol.

Also Freiza was dead for over a decade and yet RoF(resurrection of Freiza) is a thing.

As for arale she did the sun stuff 30 years ago, she got stronger as evidenced she went from poking the sun and splitting the earth to giving Blue Goku a hard time. And yet her reality warping can’t effect Beerus either because of how he’s too strong for her or cause of energy of destruction. Take your pick, Vegeta has the same powers Beerus does.

And that’s not Porunga’s best feats, the size of a dragon ball correlates To its power according to Champa and the ones on Granola’s planet are smaller than the ones on earth or namek. Yet they made saiyan saga tier fodder jump up to MUI level(multiversal) in the form of Granola/Gas albeit at a price of their lifespan.

Shenron can only grant one wish per summoning and can't grant the same wish more than once

And yet it has, some rules are granted by kami for a reason. it’s not because it’s beyond its power, like how it was beyond its power to kill Vegeta.

These were literally the best hax feats that you scaled the hax resistance too

The grand priest scales to a higher level of infinity and it was beyond effortless, Toppo did the same feat and he’s tiers upon tiers below the GP. Jin Mori doesn’t match him at all.

warping the infinite universe and purging it of malice are literally all things I've posted that he's done. And that was a weaker version! What am I supposed to be impressed by?

Your infinite universe can fit inside my infinite macrocosm with infinite room to spare.

Is there any reason Jin doesn’treverse causalityto prevent any action you take from ever becoming real or occurring in the first place?

We’ve already gone over how reality warping doesn’t counter his FSF(Porunga) and only reality warping directly or indirectly doesn’t work on them cause of their power. You listed a bunch of god awful points as well as blatantly non canon garbage and tried to pass it off for a debunk.

Truth is I’ve produced 17 showings while you have 2 counter examples, basic math says I have over 8x the amount of evidence backing what I said. Ignoring the author stating that power and ki control are more important than anything else in DB.

Is there any reason Vegeta would even want to do this or be able to do this after Jinremoves malice and ill-intent from him and completely remove his powers in the process? How would he fight without the will or motivation and his abilities gone?

No lie I feel like you just keep repeating the same few things and ignore whatever you don’t want to hear, unfortunately I’m fine repeating myself too.

Important to watch-please don’t skip.

Your debunk relied on going off Whis stating the fighters feel the gravity of their native world, but as I proven that’s stupid as gravity alone wouldn’t keep anyone from flying. And if you watch it, the video makes it very clear flight is disabled. The fairness part is so not everyone is blanketly having to feel gravity they’re not used to. Jiren did ignore the rules on flying as did Goku at several points in UI when in combat, so you can’t even claim this is something unique to Jiren(despite literally having nothing special about him beyond his power which got surpassed).

You aren’t Depowering Vegeta, or nerfing him in any way.

Is there any reason Jin doesn’t combine that withhis probability manipulationto increase the chances of everything he does to a 100% reality which simultaneously reduces your chances of fighting back to zero?

It’s funny I asked you to prove it was probability manipulation when it very obviously was saying a very unlikely event happened not that he manipulated probability. And I said probability is just indirect reality warping, you would be better off just reality warping straight up although Vegeta has already resisted and beaten reality warpers. Toppo is one, like I said he created stars that filled the WoV and changed the color of it which is a better feat than anything from Jin Mori.

Is there any reason Jin doesn’t just copy all your powers and forms and use his omnipresence through time to force the concept of death on you before the timeline of your existence began?

You’re trying to frame his hax as this overpowered one sided thing to counter but this is so weird to do. Forcing death on him before his existence began? And I already said Hakai destroys you across all flows of time, death manipulation is a step below that.

Copy it, power copying only really helps to the tier you can use it on. For instance if you’re a wall level character and someone has star level fire manipulation it would be a NLF to say you can jump to star level if you have no feats of such, maybe you can still use the fire manipulation but it would be at a lower level. And it’s not like Vegeta’s abilities would be useful against him, he’s resisted Hakai and FSF wouldn’t work.

Also, did you really ignore my whole point about Vegeta removing your powers? You keep accusing me of not addressing your points but you’ve ignored half of mine, only trying to respond to the things you think you can dominate.

Is there any reason someone withcomplete control over miracles, death, karma, samsara, and reality who also has a laundry list of broken abilities and higher dimensional control over time and space would even be affected by these things when he exists outside the cosmological structure of his own fictional setting?

See it’s very obvious to tell when someone is falling back on status when they don’t have a direct counter to something. “Is there any reason someone beyond time and space can’t have all their powers removed by someone else also beyond time and space?” The answer is no, there isn’t. Stuff the fluff it doesn’t impress anyone.

His cosmological structure is tiny and insignificant, you compared him to Zamasu but Zamasu has an infinitely better feat and even then Goku felt he could deal with him without having hakai(manga exclusive for Goku) he just couldn’t cause he was drained. Stop hiding behind omnipresence, Goku was going to destroy a 6D realm in the first arc of super. Black transcends the comprehension of deities from that realm, and Jiren is above even infinite Zamasu.

Is there any reason Jin doesn’t just beat the shit out of you through skill considering you’ll be moving in slow motion like the last guy who was -illions of times stronger and faster than him?

More skill and infinitely faster

Why do I feel like you’re deliberately undermining all the hax at my disposal by not seriously addressing it and making it seem like you can just brute force your way through this fight when you’re hopelessly outclassed in versatility?

Explaining how Vegeta deals with hax is anything but undermining it sir, if I was doing that I wouldn’t address it at all. In the end Jin Mori has never done 99% of what you shown, he’s a reality warper with skills and clones. But as I shown reality warping(which is all encompassing), time, soul destruction, mental manipulation, spatial attacks, existence erasure, matter manipulation, and many other hax get dealt with on the basis of sheer power. Most of your hax will fall into one of those categories

which besides reality warping is causality manipulation, concept manipulation (specifically miracles, karma, samsara, death, brahman)

This isn’t a tourney, you don’t need to pretend like reality warping isn’t all of those. Reality warping is the manipulation of reality which encompasses all concepts/space/time. And making your list longer to artificially fluff it out changes nothing, yes Vegeta can resist this.

and power stealing + copying.

I already said copying is whatever, it doesn’t change anything. Stealing won’t happen, for reasons I’ve been saying since my second post but you conveniently ignored.

I don't see how the range is relevant at all. It's not an ability whose potency increases with range, time is literally just stopped.

This is such a dumb thing to say, obviously if someone stopped time across the universe you wouldn’t say someone who deals with room level time manipulation is countering right? Greater manipulation of the fabric of space time is a better feat

Fair on the analogy.

Mori triple-layered time stop to incapicate characters that transcended time and resisted two layers of time stop. Not only would Vegeta get frozen but I would argue Hit and Jiren get frozen too, since Mori can just keep stacking it if they adapt.

Vegeta> those two first off, and we already established those fairies are fodder who would die instantly so idk why you’re debating like they wouldn’t be.

And I have no idea why you keep ignoring the statements I gave for higher dimensions in DB, going by the arguments you yourself make and applying them to Vegeta my character upscales just as high or higher than yours.

Let’s do this one last time

  1. I’m DBZ we beings tearing out of the dimension of time over candy
  2. Buuhan was warping the universe(infinite) and going to collapse it.
  3. A realm which transcends everything in the mortal realm stated to be 6th Dimensional was going to be destroyed by SSG Goku
  4. Vegeta powering up destroys the dimension of time on accident
  5. Black slices through reality in a way that is beyond the comprehension of the gods from those higher dimensions
  6. Infinite Zamasu was merging with the entire DBS cosmology including higher levels of infinity.
  7. Hit was able to effect people who scale above Goku black
  8. Jiren transcends IZ, the gods, and Hit’s time manipulation.
  9. Jiren is weaker than Broly
  10. Vegeta surpassed Broly

Vegeta isn’t going down to your time manipulation, Hit benefits from higher dimensional scaling than you can. Simply effecting people who are above time and space isn’t the same as what I’ve been saying, even though you have ignored that.

Not only would Hakai not work on Jin, but Vegeta can't resistance Mori's existence erasure/death manipulation. Mujin resisted existence erasure twice (1, 2) and Mori still forced the concept of death directly onto him despite his persistence. Your feats aren't good enough.

I can’t tell You how annoying it is that you keep ignoring what I say, even when you’re quoting me …. Just so you can have faux superiority by turning it back around. All existence erasure isn’t created equal, I don’t give a damn if he resisted existence erasure a million times you have no feats for its potency on the level I have. And you gave ZERO proof Jin Mori can’t be erased from existence when a SUPERIOR reality warper granted immortality to someone that was still being deleted by Hakai.

You didn’t even say why it won’t work just “it won’t work”. So at this point you’re getting one shot right off the bat and deleted from existence, given Toppo (who is weaker than SSBE Vegeta) could cover an endless expansion with his Hakai there’s no issue with deleting you. And the potency is no issue as again the WoZ transcends the rest of the timeline, and SS brought back nearly a dozen infinite macrocosms(all the ones that were deleted from existence by Zeno) and Vegeta’s >>Goku’s. Even Goku had to move out of the way of Vegeta’s Hakai against Gas.

Mujin resisted existence erasure twice (1,2)

And you can clearly see the second one says his wings rejected his karma, something he doesn’t have when Jin tries to kill him again.

Speed

I mean if transcending time is your only benchmark for being 5th dimensional then that's fine, it just means Jin is 6th or 7th dimensional because he's imperceptible to characters that do that.

I literally laid out a whole ton of arguments, and you pick just one to respond to. Leaving this for the voters as my argument hasn’t changed, but do note he never attempted to debunk any of it. He only kept insisting he’s higher.

Nirvana has one-way interactions with the rest of creation, and Gods in GoH (really all inhabitants of the 7 Heavenly Realms) are 5D by your standards due to existing outside of time and space conventions

A level lower than the Kai’s how wonderful.

Because it's the only one you've posted besides moving faster than teleportationwhich Jin's clone has already done.

Yeah no it was 3 from the very beginning, you just ignored it. Also even if it was the only feat (it wasn’t) I also said in less than an hour base Goku when weakened managed to jump to previously what was blue tier at the end of the ToP. So imagine years and years of training, that’s the buffs the saiyans get.

You didn't even make an attempt to counter omnipresence, which is good because really, what are you supposed to say? I don't blame you

Do you not know how omnipresence works? That would explain why you keep disregarding everything I say about it, existing everywhere on lower planes of existence presents no edge against someone dimensionally similar to you. Transcending time and space is what you’re describing

So it's ki traveling outside a universe into a larger one... cool. Not sure why that would be faster than the speed of the big bang and expansion of space when we know the timeframe for your feat isn't nearly as small as the inflationary epoch (10−36seconds.) So as far as quantifiable speed is concerned, Jin has you beat by 3.3 trillion times.

Your infinity debacle has had larger ramifications than you imagined, traveling outside an infinite cosmos into a larger set of infinity would beat any speed feat you can possibly bring up. Thus, beginning of super Vegeta is faster than you.

Your next feat is Goku matching Hit's time skipping with sheer speed which is not quantifiable.

That was my whole point….

.. especially a character like Nirvana Mori who is omnipresent through TIME and can exist at any and every point in time simultaneously. He could attack you one-sidedly before this fight even began.

That wouldn’t recton Vegeta out of existence or anything even if you did kill him, changes to the past wouldn’t effect Vegeta and I already said Hakai erases across “all flows of time”. If he resisted it then attacking a prior version won’t get rid of the Vegeta before you, if it’s any version from super you would just be making things harder for yourself for no reason.

This would just be a Zamasu situation on a smaller scale, and less powerful. Which Goku was confident he could deal with at FP, and Jiren blatantly scales over. And it’s not like 6D realms weren’t about to be turned into a void by SSG Goku

Conclusion

At this point your need to be absolutely dominant has entirely backfired, Jin Mori doesn’t benefit from an infinite cosmology in any meaningful way. He has a finite multi universal cosmos, meaning effecting one macrocosm> any feats you have put forth in this debate.

  • 17, we have gone over 17 examples in a series that is almost 40 years old proving my point that those that are stronger will be able to resist hax from those weaker than they are. You proposed 2 valid counter examples, otherwise you not only put forth absolutely shitty arguments but blatantly non canon ones from the wrong series. And this is a very blatant example of disabling abilities for the Grand Priest, and yet you tried to argue it’s just manipulating gravity which makes no sense given a weakened Goku could stand in the gravity on the stage on top of a black hole. The gravity of Vegeta’s birth planet is 10x Earth’s gravity…. He’s been flying and casually existing in that his whole childhood before his planet was destroyed this wouldn’t stop him from being able to fly. And I do saw it’s an example of law manipulation(type of reality warping) for only fighters to be experiencing their worlds gravity without prior knowledge for the grand priest on who is participating and since it only works on fighters. Jiren ignoring the Grand Priest’s doing this(alongside UI Goku at some points) shows you won’t be able to nerf or de power Vegeta in any meaningful way. Your best argument for it being possible comes from another series….
  • The fact that I’ve broken down Vegeta’s ability to interact with Jin Mori and you ignore it all shows me you have no counter arguments, you just want to make it seem like you have the superior character. Silent concessions aside Vegeta can easily interact with Jin Mori, and omnipresence on lower planes means absolutely nothing to someone similar or greater than Jin.
  • Your arguments for skill all rely on huge stat disparities, I can do the same thing and better than you.
  • I’ve seen very poor evidence Jin Mori is universal tbh, either his kick warping the universe is a feat only for his reality warping or for his strength. Make it both and the feat is less impressive, beyond that you’re upscaling Jin trillions of times the level he actually operates on.
  • I do actually want to point out 99% of the hax you’re flaunting Jin has never used, you’re just presenting him like a fan fic version while also presenting ZERO counters to Vegeta stripping all of Jin Mori’s hax away with FSF. You didn’t even try to debunk it, which tells me you know Vegeta can just depower Jin Mori cause all of his power comes from others which FSF negates
  • Absolutely no counters to hakai in the slightest. I bring up hakai and you’re like “it won’t work, but Jin has taken down someone who resisted featless existence erasure with wings that he didn’t have when Jin killed him. Vegeta’s resistance isn’t enough“ an inferior version of the hakai was erasing someone who had been granted immortality by a stronger reality warper than Jin Mori. You had two rounds to say something, anything, about your resistance but you didn’t. So I’ll assume you have nothing, and you along with this neutral universe Jin/Vegeta are in are erased from existence.
  • Vegeta still counters cloning, though Jin will strip that too
  • Remember this was me steelmanning your infinite universe deal, if I took it at face value I benefit way more from all this. I said my opinion in my second post being that I think those were just describing the cosmos as very large, but if you play this game you lose.
  • Vegeta is far stronger than Jin Mori can hope to match.
  • Not sure what going back in time will do, it won’t get rid of the Vegeta you’re facing as he’s both above time and has dealt with erasure across all of time. It would just mean you’re dealing with another version of Vegeta on top of one here.
  • We’re in a neutral universe, nothing stops Jin from being deleted alongside this universe.

Even if Vegeta can perceive Jin, which he can't, then he would just fall down and worship him and lose any ability to actually engage in a fight.

Vegeta would never do this, Mujin resisted cause it was in his nature to resist worshipping gods and it seems to be about recognizing you’re inferior power wise which Vegeta isn’t. Along with having more power than Jin can match he carries the pride of a prince

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WastelandMan

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Great job on both sides, I look forward to reading through this when I get a chance.

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defiant_will

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RIP

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Nixtollo

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Great CaV between both participants. A lot of interesting takes.

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CloudtheMaker

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WordsBeyondFic0

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Great argument from both sides.

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TheWatcherKing

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higherpower

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#80  Edited By higherpower  Moderator

Hold off on voting. I’m not gonna be toxic but I just want to clear a few things up

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Pandalumina

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#81  Edited By Pandalumina

👀

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chris2kzombieki

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I feel no matter what happens I know who gets my vote. And I'm not surprised

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rajjarsalt

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Hold off on voting. I’m not gonna be toxic but I just want to clear a few things up

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SagaTheLegend

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Bruh this is truly CV's magnum opus no joke

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ProfessorRespect

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Too long, didn't read

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saboyaba

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mr-yes

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That was quite interesting indeed, and great job to both of you. I’ll reread and give my vote

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Lilgodperv

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Noice

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OrientalWarrior

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Definitely a top tier Cav

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LordTwigo

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Well done both of you

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chris2kzombieki

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Hmm tough one.

Giving it to watcher, I feel as though his rebuttals were always a step ahead.

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TheWatcherKing

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@chris2kzombieki: I appreciate the vote but I think HigherPower would like a little more of an explanation. It doesn’t have to be super long

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chris2kzombieki

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@thewatcherking: I was more convinced by your rebuttals. It felt like every time you made a valid point it either wasn’t probably addressed if it was addressed at all

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Naronu

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I'll try to keep this short and sweet as despite the length of the debate and the multitude of points covered, I only feel a few of them ended up being important to my final decision.

I want to start by saying that representing characters above universal is incredibly difficult, both for the debater and the writer. A large part of debates around those kind of characters then comes down to how clearly the debater and series can explain the character's power and hax as it is not something intuitive like what's found in lower tiers. Which makes the openers more important for setting the stage than in a normal debate. I personally think both debaters did an amazing job with this and that's part of what makes the CaV a great read despite the generally nightmarish topics of beyond infinite scaling, layered tiers of conceptual reality warping hax and hax resistance, and especially the shitshow that is higher dimensionality.

Before the final posts I was leaning towards Mori, but I cannot stress how poor the decision to open up infinite scaling proved to be. What originally could be argued as a manageable disparity between the two which Mori could possibly make up through higher versatility, skill, and his predilection for fighting stronger opponents became quite literally an infinite gulf that could not be spanned by any means. It can perfectly be summed up by this line of Watcher's from his closer:

"Numerical values no longer matter once the debate is about levels of infinity as the disparity is infinite."

In fact I won't even talk about the finite debate, as it was abandoned in the later stages and ultimately had no bearing on my vote. To me Vegeta simply was in an infinitely better position based on the cosmology arguments presented, with the "nearly infinite" statement being the key statement against Mori and GoH's cosmology as something that is near infinite is no closer to infinite than zero is, even if you're working with novemdecillion differences in effective speed. This combined with forced spirit fission which seems almost tailor made to shut down the offensive plan presented for Mori gives Vegeta an infinite advantage. My vote goes to @thewatcherking

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ArgomkII

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#97  Edited By ArgomkII

My vote goes to watcher in terms of who won this debate but personally i think Mori actually wins via transcending all laws which is puts him at bare minimum angel tier

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Nixtollo

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#98  Edited By Nixtollo

My vote goes to @thewatcherking

As said by Naronu above, the decision to use scaling for an infinite cosmology for Mori was a very odd and arbitrary decision from what I had read. For the majority, I believed that Mori had an advantage in speed, skill, and even strength that was presented but those advantages were thrown away in the infinite scaling that was well defined by Watcher to be something broke from the set continuity that the initial two posts had going.

The decision to rather supersede each other's superiorty was an odd decision in my opinion. Rather than explicitly proving each other wrong, it was more like a constant one-upping each other contest. This unfortunately lead to the easily avoidable infinity debate which works for neither of the verses.

This does not mean it wasn't close, if not for the last post, my vote would've gone to the Higherpower due to a lot of arduous scaling to bring Vegeta even close to Mori's level. Both debaters still did a great job in presenting their arguments.

Regardless, my vote has been set.

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macroo

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@naronu: i agree with this.

HP lost the moment he started pushing the powerscale to infinity.

(tryna win Powerscale debate against a verse which is famous for powerscaling 💀💀💀HP comedian)

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SagaTheLegend

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I think HigherPower did a much better job at presenting his arguments for Mori's power level while some of WatcherKing's argument fell flat on the ground, so I vote for him.