CaV | Vegeta (TheWatcherKing) vs Jin Mori (HigherPower) - Open for Votes

Journey to the West is an adventure novel inspired by historical events, particularly the quest of the Chinese Buddhist monk Xuanzang (Tang Sanzang) (602-664). It begins by recounting the exploits and misadventures of Sun Wukong, a monkey born from stone who learns the art of Tao/Dao, 72 Earthly Transformations, combat (martial arts), and the secrets of immortality. Wukong's power and wit earned him many names, the most prominent being Qitian Dasheng, or "Great Sage Equal to Heaven." True to his name, his powers exponentially increased until he matched the forces of all the Eastern (Taoist) deities and singlehandedly rivaled the entire Buddhist-Hindu pantheon.

Tang Sanzang is introduced through his early biography and the background of his legendary journey. He was distressed that "the land of the South (China) knows only greed, hedonism, promiscuity, and sins," so Buddha instructed the Bodhisattva Guanyin to search China for someone to take the Buddhist sutras of "transcendence and persuasion for good will" back to the land. The novel then details how Tang became a monk and his pilgrimage by Emperor Taizong, who previously escaped death with the help of an Underworld figure.

The main story finds Tang and his disciples on an epic quest to return Buddhist scriptures from China to India along the Silk Road. They encounter all kinds of demons, evil spirits, monsters, and natural obstacles in the wilderness, such as tall flaming mountains, impossibly wide rivers, a lair of seductive spiders, a kingdom with an all-female population, and more. Tang's adversaries considered him a potential meal since they believed that eating his flesh would grant them immortality. Wukong joined Tang's mission at the behest of Guanyin in order to atone for and restitute his past sins. Namely, rebelling after heaven with the Sun in the prologue, and fighting Buddha Tathagata who trapped/seal him under a mountain with a talisman for 500 years. Of his four disciples, Wukong was the smartest and most belligerent. He is constantly rebuffed for his violence and ultimately could only be controlled by a magic ring that Guanyin placed around his head, which gives him unbearable headaches when Tang Sanzang chants the Ring Tightening Mantra. The novel then takes an episodic "monster of the week" format that usually involves Tang getting captured and having his life threatened while his disciples have to devise cunning, clever (and often violent) ways of rescuing him.

Although some of Tang Sanzang's predicaments are political and involve ordinary human beings, they are more often encounters with various demons, many of whom are earthly manifestations of heavenly beings (whose sins will be negated by eating Tang Sanzang's flesh) or animal spirits with enough Taoist spiritual merit to assume semi-human forms. Throughout the journey, Tang's disciples protect him from various monsters, calamities, or other scenarios. After many years they finally arrive at their destination of the sacred Vulture Peak in India, where Tang Sanzang receives scriptures from the living Buddha. Upon returning to the Tang dynasty, Wukong and Sanzang achieve Buddhahood and transcend to Nirvana. Outside of the modern setting and the unique plot, the lore of GoH is a pretty consistent 1:1 adaptation of Journey to the West. The standard deviation is Mori consuming the flesh of Xuanzang and gaining immortality on their journey before fighting Buddha again. His birth, ascent to power, conflicts with the Jade Emperor, and challenge of Heaven are all accurate interpolations of the old text, which help to contextualize Yongje Park's themes and vision for his own story. Journey to the West has strong spiritual themes that mainly reinforce Buddhist mantras and beliefs, but the story incorporates strong elements of Confucianism, Taoism, Chinese mythology, and Chinese folk religion.

A general understanding of important Buddhist concepts is crucial and relevant to knowing the full extent of Jin Mori as he appears here. At the end of The God of High School, Jin Mori becomes enlightened and attains Buddhahood (like Wukong). But he takes it a step further by becoming the Supreme God in his verse, which endows him with complete control over karma and samsara, and enables him to reach Nirvana. This started when Jin merged with the Saintess Cross and regained his power, which he used to create miracles that resurrected long-dead individuals, and absorbed/drained the energy and powers of anyone touching his Stairway to Heaven, which covered the entire planet.

Gallery

He forcibly altered probability en route to that powerup and made a reality from a 0.00000000000001% chance (1 in 100 trillion) by manipulating miracles generated from the prayers of countless people.

Gallery

Mori continued to transcend after this, but this was the turning point. Miracle manipulation, probability manipulation, karma manipulation, becoming the Supreme God, reaching Nirvana, controlling Samsara the Wheel of Life... just what do any of these terms mean?

==========================================================================================

It all begins with the overlapping beliefs and similarities shared by Hinduism and Buddhism. Hinduism is the older religion; as a matter of fact, it is the world's oldest religion according to the consensus of many scholars. It has customs dating back more than 4,000 years and has no individual founder, rather it grew from a wide range of beliefs from diverse settlers in India. Buddhism was founded by Siddartha Guatama (c. 563-483 BC), who was a Hindu. He is considered to be the ninth avatar among the ten avatars of the god Vishnu, in the Vaishnava tradition.

Hinduism is a diverse system of views characterized by a range of doctrines, philosophies, rituals, cosmology systems, pilgrimage sites, and shared texts discussing theology, metaphysics, mythology, Vedic yajna, yoga, and agamic ritual. Prominent themes in Hindu faiths include the four Puruṣārthas, or the purposes of human life, namely dharma (ethics/duties), Artha (prosperity/work), kama (desires/passions), and moksha (liberation/freedom from the passions), as well as karma (action, intent, and consequences) and Saṃsāra (cycle of death and rebirth). Hinduism and Buddhism share the laws of Karma, Dharma, and Moksha and believe in Saṃsāra, the cycle of rebirth. Hinduism and Buddhism also acknowledge the existence of several hells and heavens (or higher and lower worlds). Nirvana is the Hindu/Buddhist concept of enlightenment achieved when the karmic cycle is broken and karma and craving are extinguished.

The historical Buddha Siddhartha Gautama created the concept of nirvana in the sixth century BCE. Although Buddhism has its roots in Hindu philosophy, it takes an unconventional approach to spiritual development and rejects several of Hinduism's basic principles. The belief in nirvana is a prime example of this philosophical change. Buddhism notably disavows fundamental Hindu doctrines such as atman (self or soul), Brahman (a single, everlasting, universal source of everything), and the idea that there is a creator god (Ishvara). Buddhism, on the other hand, preaches not-self (anatman) and emphasizes dependency as the main metaphysical dogma. Along with other Hindu literature, Buddhism opposes the Vedas' scriptural authority as well as the Vedic doctrines on ritual, caste, and sacrifice.

Nirvana, which means "snuffing out" in Sanskrit, refers to the termination of cravings and karma, the forces generated by a person's actions that tie them to the cycle of rebirth (samsara). A prominent Buddhist principle is an anatman, which opposes the Hindu notion of a permanent, essential self (the atman, or soul), that is one with ultimate reality. In Hinduism, the term "Brahma" refers to the highest universal principle and the supreme reality of the cosmos. It is the tangible, effective, formal, and ultimate cause of everything that exists according to the main Hindu philosophical traditions. The all-pervading, infinite, eternal truth, consciousness, and happiness is the immutable cause of all changes. Brahman as a metaphysical concept encapsulates the binding unity behind the diversity of all that exists in the universe. Buddhism employs a candle metaphor to illustrate the transfer of karma because there is no self to which it may attach: just as an old candle (one's dying body) starts to peter out, its flame (karma) ignites the wick of a second candle (an infant's body). Karma can thus be transferred without becoming attached to a self. A person enters nirvana when they have attained enlightenment and have let go of their ignorant attachment to erroneous ideals, which puts an end to karma and frees them from the cycle of rebirth.

Although followers of the Mahayana school of Buddhism take the bodhisattva oath to delay nirvana until all sentient beings have attained enlightenment, Theravada Buddhism divides nirvana into two stages: the awakening of the arhat (enlightened being) and parinirvana (the exit from samsara upon death). The concept of nirvana has influenced Hinduism and is found in the 700 verse Bhagavad Gita, where Krishna uses the term brahama nirvana to describe the state of liberation in which karma is eliminated and one has attained union with Brahman (ultimate reality), despite the fact that nirvana marks a significant break from Buddhism's Hindu roots. In layman's terms, achieving Nirvana grants a unique brand of immortality and an acausal state of existence that's unreachable and imperceptible to any other concept or being, which is important to understand for Jin Mori (and Sun Wukong).

@macroo: @laterate: @kurt_saulenne: @oreoghoul: @quantubeyond: @naronu: @thenamelessone: @defiant_will: @darkdementor101: @turnwaiter: @pandalumina: @sauce_god31: @great_darkness: @hittheassasin: @supremegeneration: @chris2kzombieki: @cloudthemaker: @maalik: @crapser: @lordtwigo: @ben2004: @rogue_prince: @nixtollo: @nassergrant19: @wordsbeyondfic0: @wordsbeyondfic0: @estrelladeleon: @uncannyrewind: @mantraxsp: @ecoblitz: @cosmicemperor:

Before we can get into feats its important to know the scope of the worlds being discussed. In Dragon Ball it’s shown the “universe“ the main cast are from is a macrocosm much bigger than our own universe.

This is an illustration of Universe 7 which shows one part of reality is mortal/physical universe, then there’s the heavenly realm(afterlife), and this diagram doesn’t show it but there’s the Supreme Kai world which orbits the macrocosm and is 1/10th the size of the macrocosm. So any terms involving effecting the universe are actually a bigger cosmological structure than one like in the real world.

And also in any given timeline there are twelve macrocosms in total, which is why the one Vegeta is from is called Universe 7(U7).

While Vegeta is a prideful person it’s not without reason, it’s demonstrated that powerhouses even early on are capable of power in excess of universal.

Gallery

1-2. We have Beerus and SSG Goku clashing in the first Arc of Super where the shockwaves travel throughout the macrocosm reaching the Supreme Kai’s world. And was said to destroy the universe by the characters and narrator, turning everything into an empty void.

3-5. We have 3 instances of Beerus and champa threatening not just to destruction of the universe regarding U7 but also destruction of U6 it’s twin macrocosm.

What’s important to note is Goku/Vegeta absorbed the god level power of SSG into their base, making it their own. Goku didn’t even notice he powered down, and then have transformations they earned latter time stack on top that base(in Vegeta’s case SSB/SSBE/UE).

So the level of power Goku shown was his base by the beginning of the second arc, where we see Vegeta is able to fight him evenly as Vegeta has done the same. For a while Vegeta was actually stronger cause he started training with Whis first

Gallery

Later we see Jiren, who’s power is consistently regarded as surpassing the GoDs even in his most suppressed states.

Gallery

1. Whis talks about how there is a mortal who even a GoD can’t defeat, and confirms it. A god that is stronger than Beerus mind you.

2. Guide confirms Jiren is stronger than the gods

3. Guide suggests that Omen Goku is stronger than Beerus(possibly). Omen being an imperfect version of UI

4. MUI transcends the gods.

5-6. Out of order but shows Gods of destruction consider the level of a Post Black Arc(many years of training Goku has had after his fight with Beerus where the latter was holding back but still threatening the universe), Goku and Toppo on the level of the gods In only SSG. Jiren literally has more power in his finger than Goku does in SSG within his entire body.

I need you to understand that Jiren walking was shaking the world of void(UI Omen Goku also shakes it)a void of infinite nothingness. That his glaring at the spirit bomb while massively suppressed was impressing the Supreme Kai so much that he’s simply considered the strongest they’ve faced and the supreme kai was around in the prior arc when Zamasu merged with reality(becoming the concept of justice and order itself) and not only spread throughout the future timeline but was bleeding into the Present timeline and would’ve kept going if not for Zeno.

Gallery

When Jiren actually does finally gather his full power just the action of charging up threatens to crush the pride troopers alongside Belmond (the GoD stronger than Beerus). Let me reiterate, a group of above universal beings are in danger of being killed just being in the vicinity of another character gathering their power for an attack against someone else. And it’s no exaggeration, we see his mere aura blocking the attacks of SSBE Vegeta, SSBKKX20 Goku, and 17 all at once and his powering up not only cancels out their attacks but one shots them all(this was before the scene I shown you, meaning he was still holding back here). Just to add a bit of context to this, Vegeta beat down GoD Toppo in SSBE who altered the entire world of void, not only changing the color of it but seemingly filling it with stars. Which again, the world of void had nothing in it not even time or space.

And as shown when Goku attained MUI he nullified Jiren’s blast with a finger flick and dismantled Jiren.

Vegeta scales insanely over this, UE Vegeta was presented as on par with a Perfected UI Goku far beyond how he was in the ToP cause of his training with a literal angel the arc prior.

Gallery

Hell, even before he attains this the arc before its established the difference between Vegeta/Goku without UE/UI was his spirit and body being in sync which we know massively improves the power of someone seen with Vegeta when he completes his training polishing his soul.

Gallery

Gallery

At Vegeta’s strongest he’s leaps and bounds stronger than even LB Jiren, with or without UE. We will get into the specifics of the power UE provides in the next section though.

Last thing I will touch on here is dimensionality. You told me you believe Jin is 5D? Vegeta is at bare minimum that level, we’ve seen beings like Jiren outright transcend time itself as stated by Vados, and Vegeta has casually destroyed the entire lookout while in the HTC which isn’t even counted as part of this universe by simply powering up to SSB(and he destroys a place that was stated to not just contain all of time but that its created there).

Gallery

I also shown in the cosmology section that the afterlife is a much higher plane of existence than the mortal realm, something Goku and Beerus were going to destroy in the first arc of Super(something base Vegeta from the next arc scales above). Potentially 6th given the wording was transcending dimensions(plural) imperceptible to mortals but I digress, that shouldn’t be an issue here.

You brought up how Jin absorbed the power of the earth as apart of his amp to reach the state he’s in right now? Well Vegeta has an answer to that in the form of forced spirit fission. This move tears apart things that combined via fusing, draining or absorption.

All the power Moro amassed by draining beings across the universe were separated from him cause of this and returned to where they were taken, Piccolo also permanently combined bodies with Nail/Kami the latter of whom he was originally one with to begin with. But Vegeta can undo it all, even the reality warping wish from Porunga that granted Moro his full power was undone

Gallery

A basic trait of the saiyans is to adapt and grow in battle, this goes for fighting styles/tactics as well as physically adapt to certain abilities and getting stronger. In regards to the mental side, there’s many examples of it but the best is Goku’s fight with the time skipper named hit. Goku adapts to his fighting style in base form and is able to fight him evenly, despite the fact that he’s a combatant able to clown SSB Vegeta(weakened) and fight SSBK when Goku decides to go all out. Goku also just ignores illusions from Moro that previously fooled his senses because “Moro used it before”.

Gallery

And don’t think that Goku outperforms Vegeta in this, as I shown before they’re evenly matched. Vegeta has outperformed Goku before in seeing weakpoints in Jiren’s fighting style and tagging him when even SSBKKX20 Goku couldn’t tag Jiren(Vegeta was in SSB). Goku didnt tag Jiren in his suppressed state till he reached Omen UI, but Vegeta did in a massively inferior form. They also had a drawn out fight in the latest movie (both staying in base form), a fight Vegeta won. It’s actually when a saiyan is on the back foot in a fight when they will grow the most to overcome what they’re faced with, noted by the Angel Whis this is especially true for Vegeta.

As for the physicals? Vegeta went from well below Granola(way weaker than MUI Goku who got one tapped) to capable of fighting competitively after a brief bit of fighting. UE enhances this further as damage is fuel that makes him stronger, allowing him to damage Gas someone tiers beyond him.

Gallery

I should note that even the first time he used it the aura he gave off was so strong none of Granola’s attacks could penatrate it. And the boost UE gives only gets bigger the more damage he takes AND the more his heart burns from remembering his own pride/ego.

Vegeta also has GoD techniques showing he can make all of his standard energy blasts utilize energy of destruction and can perform the hakai.

Gallery

Something to keep in mind is Vegeta actually mastered destruction techniques while Goku didn’t (he admitted this himself) yet he was successfully erasing Zamasu’s got immortality granted to him by the Super Dragon Balls.

We had already talked about how potent Zamasu is cause of his immortality but remember even Zeno says the SDBs can do anything and we see it bring Back all the macrocosms deleted by the Omni Kings.

Gallery

1. No wish is beyond Shenlong’s power, stated by The Grand Priest second only to Zeno himself.
2. The smaller dragon balls have limits cause they’re only a small piece of the original dragon
3. No limit to the wishes it grants
4. Can wish for anything with these orbs
5. The Omni Kings(Zeno) state the dragon can do anything
6. Grant anything
7. Brings back every universe that was deleted by the Omni Kings, which was all of them but U7. Reminder The Omni King can effortlessly erase anything in the cosmology of DB, including the cosmology in it’s entirety. Yet it was able to undo the erasure of two Zeno’s.

So Vegeta’s being further along with his destruction abilities shows the potency of his erasure.

We already went through the cosmology of the universe but let’s take one more look at it.

As seen above the Supreme Kai world orbits around the macrocosm, which is relevant as Goku gathered energy from the Z fighters in the Buu saga while he was on the Supreme Kai world when the Z fighters were on the Earth. This happened near instantly, despite Goku being outside of the physical universe at this point.

Gallery

And the Supreme Kai’s world itself is 1/10th the size of the macrocosm which is far larger than the universe and we know it’s physically traveling to Goku

To be traveling at such speeds is obviously and irrefutably MFTL to an insane degree. And this is from the Buu saga, where literally everything in it is absolutely garbage to even the first chapter of Super. In super we see Goku matching Hit’s skipping forward in time with sheer speed….somehow…until Hit managed to improve it further.

And as nonsensical as it sounds, Granola has the capability for “faster than instant” moves.

Gallery

Which just shows how the power creep went up to 11 for super.

This section will be divided into two parts: Pre-Ragnarok skill and Post-Ragnarok skill.

Pre-Ragnarok

The original plot of GoH (before it fully interpolated the story of Journey to the West) was that of high school-aged prodigies entering a global martial arts tournament under the pretense that the winner would be granted one wish. The contest was actually a cover for a nefarious organization to find "the key", or a person that would help them unlock the taboo that Gods placed on humans in order for humanity to wage war against the Gods.

This leads us to the main fighting styles in the story: Martial Arts and Charyeok. Charyeok (Borrowed Power) is when a human makes a contract with a supernatural or divine being such as Gods or Monsters in order to access and use their power as their own. Jin Mori exclusively relied on martial arts for the first two seasons because he could not use borrowed power, as he (shocker) was a God himself. But this allowed him to hone his skill, which he was already so supremely talented in, that by the time he awakened his God powers he was able to combine it with his skill to emerge in a league of his own. We saw this occur again post-Ragnarok but to a greater extent.

Jin practices a martial art known as Renewal Taekwondo, which was invented by his grandfather Taejin Jin. The story goes like this: Back in the 1960s, thirty-eight armed North Korean espionage agents infiltrated South Korea. All but one of them was shot dead, and the sole survivor was captured alive by the South Korean government. The South Korean government then took a great interest in the captive's power, so they brought 50 highly trained martial art masters to fight him in consecutive 1v1 matches. What was the result?

It was revealed that the captive North Korean agent was a practitioner of ITF Taekwondo, one branch of the Taekwondo art shared by the Koreas. He was capable of completely decimating 50 martial art masters effortlessly. Here is the full scene supporting my explanation, with the added bonus of showing that ITF Taekwondo was born after North Korea used Russian technology to analyze 5000-year-old Chinese Kung Fu (and various other martial arts) before finding the strengths of these various arts and combine them to create the ultimate technique.

Gallery

So ITF Taekwondo is literally a technologically engineered ability made from a mixture of some of the oldest and most powerful martial arts ever created, and its potency was proven when a single man slaughtered 50 trained martial art masters like it was just another Tuesday.

Now that you know how dangerous ITF is, let's take a look at Renewal. After being defeated by ITF, the South Korean president laid an ordinance to find a counter to it. So ITF was thoroughly analyzed, had its weak points completely erased, and was ingrained with new skills like stealth/presence-masking, and boom, Renewal Taekwondo was born.

Gallery

Furthermore, Jin is not limited to using Renewal Taekwondo. It is his foundation, but he has a unique ability to perfectly copy any skill or martial art he sees after seeing it only once.

This has allowed him to practice multiple styles and incorporate the principles of different martial arts into his own, which he used to refine his mastery in Renewal after newer weaknesses were discovered throughout the GoH tournament. The first style he picked up was Full-Contact Karate from his friend Daewi, which he acquired during their fight in the regional tournament finals (the GoH tournament had three stages, the regionals, the nationals, and the World Tournament). This fight serves as a stellar example of Jin's entry-level combat adaptability, a trait that seems to be a staple in all action-series protagonists, but one that compliments Jin perhaps more than others when taking into consideration the flawlessly constructed material he's working with in Renewal and its applications. Below Baek Seungchul explains Daewi's signature attack in Full Contact Karate, The Wave of the Blue Dragon, and how Mori managed to counter it:

Gallery

It was a three-staged attack setup to execute air-flow manipulation as a finishing move, with each stage being disguised as a conventional attack that Mori countered at every turn. This is despite the maneuver itself being purposed to deprive the opponent of the ability to counter by targeting and disturbing combat fundamentals such as physical balance and attack pattern. The fight didn't end there, however. Daewi is very skilled himself and used Jin's counter move to his Wave (Jin Hoechook) as his own counter to said move. He turned Jin's skill against him and used its force to break Jin's defenses after the intensity of the fight increased.

Gallery

Gallery

Despite the full force of the shock wave and the redirected air pressure of the actual Wave of the Blue Dragon (amplified by the Jin Hwechook) being transferred directly into Jin's body, he was able to recoup in that same moment and counter Daewi's counter to his counter. He upgraded the Jin Hwechook and created a new variant that was a combination of both trump cards and countermoves used between Daewi and Jin himself, called the Kick of the Blue Dragon.

Gallery

He essentially merged all three stages of the Blue Dragon technique into one singular motion, which is insanely impressive considering it required extensive setup and preliminary movements to disturb the airflow (in a specific manner) within a localized area to execute the shock wave. And Jin's shock wave was much more powerful seeing how it obliterated the stage with a crater several times larger and deeper than Daewi's on the opposite side. This feat serves as a great example of Renewal's flexibility as a martial art, and how it constantly evolves, copies its opponents' techniques, and surpasses them mid-battle. Even when actual Renewal moves are turned against Jin!

The aspect of combining multiple physical movements into one singular motion is an important recurring trait in Renewal techniques that are emphasized when Jin starts practicing Recoilless after Ragnarok (which focuses on the concept of "no-wasted movements"). We see this Pre-Ragnarok in one of Jin's signature techniques, the 3-stage Hoechook (or 3rd Stance Hwechook).

He kicks the opponent three times in quick succession to the point the momentum of the kicks combines from different directions to multiply the force internally. But the level of skill required to perform this maneuver sees Jin complete these strikes against characters that match him in speed, demonstrating the validity of the aggregated movements. Such as versus Manduk, Ardun, and Ohkwang.

Gallery

Gallery

There are many individual techniques in Renewal that exploit this, too many to list. But as mentioned earlier, Jin is not limited to Renewal. After copying Full Contact Karate and other styles seen during the regional tournament, Mori acquired the Bongchim Na style acupuncture skill during the one month between the regionals and national competition. He read through a book while everyone else was training and gained the ability to detect weak spots in a person's body just by looking at them. Mira was skeptical of this and put it to the test, and Mori failed to detect weak points in either Taek or Ilpyo, who we will talk about next.

Jin's fights with Ilpyo and Taek come after a long gauntlet of individual battles in the national tournament, which he fought under debilitating conditions. The tournament made participants wear wristbands that assign them health points as indications of their durability. When your HP reaches zero it means you've suffered normally fatal conditions if it weren't for their nanomachine's life support. When Jin had only 12 HP left, he was able to decimate Lee Marin. A single tap of his finger using a Bongchim pressure point visibly ruptured all of Marin's internal organs and wiped out his HP. This is made more impressive by the fact that one of the contestants on Marin's team was illegally interfering with the match and using his sonic-frequency-manipulation power to induce vertigo in Mori, blurring his vision and causing him to bleed from his eardrum, disorienting him.

Gallery

Jin faced that contestant next, Mundae Myeong, who ramped up his sonic powers and threatened to shake Jin's brain until it explodes. Mori was completely unfazed by this however and rushed him with a barrage of punches. He then capped off the mismatch by palming Mundae's head and performing his sonic ability directly into his mind, showing that Mori copied it on the fly during the match.

Gallery

This is one of the things that makes Jin so lethal. His copying and fusing of attacks into his own create a constant evolution during the fight that is really impossible to adapt to. But this is a story we've all seen before in skill, especially you who's represented characters like Garou, whose entire skillset is predicated on this. What sets Jin apart is evident in the new few fights. In the next match against Hanseong Nah, Jin's pressure points are rendered useless by his full body armor charyeok. So he just destroys him relentlessly with Renewal techniques. As the fight continues it's juxtaposed with Jin's previous fight with the leader of the group, who was ranked much higher than Jin in terms of levels. This was a vicious, brutal beatdown that showcases Jin's array of attacks and his agility, but the real skill takeaway comes from the evolution of his recently invented Blue Dragon Kick, where he introduces the Double Blue Dragon. Increasing the range and layering the effect of the shock wave is no small feat when still restricting its execution to a singular motion.

Jin's next test was against Ilpyo and his team, who Ilpyo trained specifically to target Renewal Taekwondo and exploit its perceived flaws/weak points. The members of his team faced Jin without the intention of winning, rather their goal in these fights was to attack him and concentrate the force of their attacks on pivotal joints to incapacitate functions in his body, weakening Jin before he had to face Ilpyo (who was on his level).

Gallery

Seungah did the better job at this, opening the fight with a technique that Ilpyo predicted she'd only have two opportunities to use in the whole fight. This was the Taekkyon Palm Strike, which has a similar effect to the sonic frequency that Mundae used, but far more concussive.

Gallery

In addition, Seungah repeatedly struck his leg with a low kick while grabbing his pants to make sure he couldn't escape. The cumulative damage was enough to worsen his balance and destabilize his kicking accuracy entirely. So Jin responded by allowing her to strike him (whereas he normally wouldn't be touched) and locating her that way before shaking her brain with the air pressure of a fast low kick.

Gallery

When Jin fought Ilpyo he broke down the three weaknesses of Renewal, all of which Jin accounted for within the match. The strategy was something Mira noticed. 1) It's vulnerable in close combat, 2) its attack points are limited, and 3) it places a heavy amount of stress on the body. Ilpyo toyed with him at the beginning of the fight, predicting all his attacks and neutralizing his every move:

Gallery

So Mori simply switched it up and used other martial arts he copied, including Mira's Wolgwang bare-handed swordsmanship, Daewi's Full Contact Karate, and Ilpyo's own Ssamu Taekkyon that he was currently using.

Gallery

And just like that, Mori turned the tables. Then we get a beautiful demonstration of how he solved all the weak points of Renewal Taekwondo.

Gallery

Gallery

The fight was later revealed to be Ilpyo training him as a sort of litmus test to see how far Jin's skill had come. And Mori passed with flying colors. The airflow manipulation from the Hwechook was most impressive as Jin's Hwechook absorbed and empowered itself from the turbulence of Ilpyo's Reverse Hwechook, which literally copied and previously neutralized his. So copying Mori's skill and using it against him serves as a springboard for him to improve his techniques, and he's repeatedly proven that the opposite isn't true.

Fast forward to the World Tournament stage, Mori is trapped in another dimension and his clone Mori Hui is taking his place. Hui expanded Jin's skills in numerous ways, particularly with acupuncture and his staff, Yeoui, as Jin received it only after reawakening his memories and powers (in which we had a story arc that didn't focus on the growth or development of his martial arts, which is why I skipped the Sage Realm saga). Hui retained knowledge of Jin's skills and picked up on others like Kusanagi Swordsmanship while also mixing Mira and Daewi's styles in true Jin fashion.

Gallery

This instance of him recounting the Jin Hwechook is a good example of him demonstrating his fundamentals.

Gallery

Right after this Hui has a pretty stellar feat of reading and intercepting Manduk's instant teleportation, which I struggled to categorize for a while, but then subscribed to it being the start of nonsensical skill showings in GoH.

Gallery

After all, that was the purpose of his growth, honing his skills seen after the fight with Dante.

Gallery

The evolution continues in the Dante fight when Mori Hui started combining existing Renewal techniques and inventing new ones, including his own signature moves in the Mori Hui gift package while using Limit Removers/Jeabingchim x48. He followed it up with joint attacks alongside Mira and Daewi launching the Blue Dragon Kick and his own variation Kicking Imoogi.

Gallery

By the time the actual tournament matches get started, we see the immense progress Hui made in a short time in his stint standing in for Mori. His own personal training on top of lessons from Hallyang Seo, a weapons master and member of The Six, allowed him to switch adeptly between barehanded practices and Pumba Verse techniques that made optimal use of Yeoui.

Gallery

I'm going to round out this section with Hui's fight against Samuel Rosinante. This was his big skill fight before Ragnarok. Although referring to it as a skill fight is slightly dubious, as this stage of the GoH tournament featured many contestants leaning heavily on their Borrowed Powers. Rosinante is incredibly strong and durable physically due to his Charyeok also being his ancestor, Hercules. After bringing out Yeoui, Hui was able to overwhelm him with an array of moves and his complete gift package (which is a technique that uses an assortment of styles like Bongchim Blood Vessel points x Renewal strikes).

Gallery

After powering up, Rosinante was strong enough to stop Yeoui from expanding only with his grip and he became immune to Bongchim's pressure points thanks to his lion's skin. Hui was also working against the Orochi (Hydra's) venom that coated the tip of Hercules' arrow, which depowered him momentarily and left him wide open to a devastating club strike. And yet he persisted; Hui immediately counterattacked with a Pumba Verse technique modeled after the Renewal Taekwondo Guard-Breaker from a laid position on the ground. He followed it up with a blistering combo of agility using both kicks (the emphasized striking point of Renewal Taekwondo) as well as staff techniques with Yeoui, recalling advice from Hallyang that informed him of the compatibility of kicking and staff strikes and how they both use centrifugal force from the ground. Lastly, Hui tells us that "when the staff, feet, and unrestricted transformation are all added together, it allows 'kaleidoscope attacks'", essentially meaning that he can attack from any position at any angle and deceive his opponent with complicated and well-times maneuvers. Linked the sequence below:

• https://imgur.com/a/89CZc4C

The finishing strike was about what you'd expect.

Gallery

Post-Ragnarok

During Ragnarok, Mori's powers were sealed by the main antagonist and he essentially also had to go into Witness Protection. His identity, appearance, and all of his stats/power changed or disappeared. For several hundred chapters, we see him go through multiple training arcs and fights in an attempt to regain hisformer levels of power through skill exclusively. And yes, this is meant literally.

Gallery

Jin's Monkey King/God mode power was that of a low skyfather; in line with Sun Wukong's legend, Mori had a galactic measuring rod, ate divine immortality peaches/pellets, and literally erased his name from the Book of Death. He waged a war against Heaven and all the Gods by himself and won. He was capable of easily destroying planets, dispersing stars, zipping across solar systems, and more.

Gallery

His entire goal was to become skilled enough that he could reach a level where he was capable of fighting the main villain without relying on his powers, stats, or weapons. This means everything you think it means.

This was the subsection that initially delayed my post for over a week, and it was getting quite long so I decided to whittle it down and focus on the main attraction, Recoilless Renewal. There are simply too many skill feats to be posted in the way I did in the last section, but posting the best ones won't be as impressive without the context of the level of combat they're already operating at. At the end of the day, the question you want to know the answer to is this:

Gallery

I'll include a quick example of a Recoilless technique. All of these moves inherently have the ability to bend space and ignore/shatter a time dilation field that slows down objects, meaning Jin's Recoilless kicks even before regaining his power or training could transcend/surpass time and space:

Gallery

I'll get into the specifics of that as the debate unfolds. I have feats I want to include as part of my strategy and counters later in the debate.

You raised the bar enough that only Jin's best feats are relevant to compete here. Posting anything other than universal would be a waste of time at this point. I already mentioned that Jin "became the world" even before his Nirvana ascension (world means universe) when he was fighting Mujin. This demonstrates that they became one with the universe through Brahman.

Gallery

This came after the kick that purified the universe and purged it of all malice, which I would consider a universal reality-warping feat tied into his skill/strength. GoH universes are also static universes nearly infinite in size at this point in the story (making it automatically bigger than your macrocosm).

Once Jin ascends to Nirvana, he oversees all creation, which is multi-universal in this context (as GoH has at least a dozen universes/alt-dimensions, more on that later). He became a true God, free from and unbounded by the laws of nature.

After this, it's just a matter of up-scaling, where I think a have a numerical edge thanks to Jin's skill. He has a technique called limit removers (Jeabongchim) where he can multiply his strength and speed 250,000x over. Beyond that, in terms of power, Jin would scale to Satan's ability to combine cloning and Jeabongchim. So he should be able to clone himself infinitely and make at least 245 quintillion clones that are each 250,000x multiversal. So all of your multipliers and upscaling may still not match the combined might of an army of Jin at full strength. I'll refrain from making bold statements because I know Dragon Ball gets pretty crazy with multipliers, and your upscaling was massive already. But I'm confident that infinitely repeating clones with 250,000x multiverse-level power are at worst matching you. (The minimum multiverse attack power would be 245 quintillions multiplied by 250k as a baseline. That's a big number).

Speed

Speed is irrelevant because post-Nirvana Jin is omnipresent through space and time (past, present, & future) across multiple timelines and dimensions thanks to Brahman and Nirvana. And the true implications of a 5D being seem to have been lost in translation somewhere because the counterexample you posted for Vegeta isn't equivalent. Building off of the previous statement when Xuanzang told Jin that he oversees all of creation from Nirvana, we are given a practical demonstration of what this entails. Surrounding him are these golden tablets each containing a timeline of events. Jin is able to hold these events and manipulate them from a 3rd person's omniscient perspective and insert his presence into them. Keep in mind this would extend through all creation, so all universes.

Gallery

The specific moment he interacted with and inserted his presence upon is a reference to a previous scene in the story. This foreshadowed Jin reaching Nirvana unbeknownst to readers at the time, and it further proves that Jin is one with the universe and lies outside of all creation where he can appear in any location at any point in time.

Gallery

Xuanzang, one of only two other people to reach Nirvana in the canon, had a similar encounter with Jin exactly like this during his battle with Satan after Jin broke the loop of binding. Jin realized that she had been protecting him since his birth in stone, which proves that beings with a Nirvana vantage point can interact with and be present in past events (and ignore the paradoxical implications).

Xuanzang herself confirmed this when she said she had been watching all of Jin's deeds. And this is a reminder that Sun Wukong is an immortal that existed long before Xuanzang was even born. But once she ascended to Nirvana, she could see and manipulate his entire timeline. And as I said this is not limited to the past, it applies to the future as well; even Mujin (who never reached Nirvana) could see the universe and the future when he was the Supreme God. And Mori would be able to view the future regardless due to Dean's powers.

Gallery

All this being said, I don't want to neglect to post feats of actual attack speed just for the sake of it. But with this, Jin is obviously never losing in that category. Even though Goku gathered energy from an area larger than the physical universe, that still doesn't compare to the speed of Mujin's destroying all 245 quintillion Satan clones across the solar system in seconds. A feat that has been referenced a couple of times now due to its sheer absurdity and applicability to different aspects of a battle once you come to terms with how insane it is. Even my lowballed estimates come out to about 3 undecillion times FTL, which is 3.3 trillion times faster than the initial expansion of the universe during the inflationary epoch (300 sextillion x FTL).

And keep in mind Mori is fast enough to blitz Mujin, and this is base speed without the 250k multiplier from limit removers. So even with your own upscaling from the universal distance feat, Jin is at worst several trillion times faster than you. At best, whatever 3 billion times 250k is (I think 10 quadrillion?).

Don't really know where to start here. Having the powers of an entire verse is... obviously a lot, and I'm typically averse to "hax-listing" but there isn't exactly an alternative. I think it's good to establish some baselines here, and in the next section where I detail my strategy to list specific hax techniques that Mori can use to complement his fighting style and skills.

First I should talk about the nature of Gods. Remember at the beginning of the skill section how I told you that the plot initially revolved around the GoH tournament being a guise for humans to find a key to break a "taboo" placed on them by the Gods? You might be wondering what the taboo is and what that means exactly in this context. The Gods didn't want the humans ever rising in power against them, so they conceptually restrained their potential with the taboo. They nerfed the entire human race across time and different universes/dimensions by imposing their law manipulation to create an enslaving contract, which was Mujin's goal to break.

Gallery

Tam (Greed) is one of the creations of Ohkwang, and it is explicitly stated to be a tremendous power that can bend the laws of the natural world (universe). Ultio R used it to overpower conceptual law manipulation.

Gallery

He breaks the taboo/contract and immediately humans start overflowing with power as Sujin notes:

Gallery

Gallery

Mujin after becoming a Supreme God was able to do things like this freely and at will. And Mori is literally one stage above the Gods, a higher dimensional existence.

Gallery

More to Jin's powers, he originally had the ability to clone himself at least 100 times, but now he has gone above and beyond that and can literally open dimension rifts across the multiverse and summon alternate versions to aid him in battle.

Gallery

Keep in mind he did this by overlapping dimensions with sheer and warping space to such a degree through sheer skill (Mujin noted he was using centrifugal force to stop the faerie's attacks, the same centrifugal force I showed you in the section with Hui and Yeoui). Each version of Jin has their own hax that you have to defend against here.

Gallery

Let's start with Jin's time stop. He can layer time stop at least THREE times over. So the faeries who have adaptation and evolution who adapted to resist the time stop were still frozen in time by the higher extradimensional layers. So in order to survive time stop here, you need feats of resisting time stop that freeze characters who resist time stop that can freeze characters who resist the standard level of time stop...

Gallery

Gallery

"Triple time stop of the New World complete" refers to three layers of time stop stacked on top of each other. And this is after the faeries shattered multiple layers of time stop. The fairy colony is not fodder either, they literally wiped out multiple universes... (world means universe).

Gallery

And they don't stop. Mori can also decelerate time and add vibrations to slowed time to temporally disintegrate you even if you have time manip resistance. It doesn't stop there. You can also get casually sucked in and trapped in another dimension.

Gallery

Or Jin can also trap you in stasis fields, a much incapacitating spatial isolation:

Gallery

As you'll see is part of my strategy, Jin can also combine his Moriverse with cloning and Jeabongchim/Limit Removers. To totally overwhelm you with numbers, versatility, adaptability, and force.

Gallery

And there will be clones/versions that have infinite regeneration.

Naturally, Mori will also have soul manipulation on top of time and space manipulation. Okhwang is a much, much weaker God than the Supreme God and he can absorb souls or forcibly transfer his soul into other bodies. He was also capable of absorbing the souls/life force of other humans by just moving his staff and transferring it to the Energy Stones. And he forced the spirit of King Uma out of her host. (She was confirmed to be a soul inhabiting Baek's body).

Then there's TP, probability manipulation, power copying, existence erasure, causality manipulation, reality warping, physics manipulation, law manipulation, and more that I've already posted.

It's really simple.

Mori steals all of Vegeta's powers, not just copies them.

When you copy someone's powers they can still use them, but when you steal them, you lose those abilities while I gain them. I can manipulate probability to ensure this happens even if the odds are low (1/100 trillionth of a chance is nothing). Mujin stole Satan's wings which is a literal plot device, and Satan is also a power copier who copied Mujin's abilities already. So there's nothing you can do to stop this.

Next, Jin summons the Moriverse and we get to work. The Jin's all clone themselves infinitely ala Satan (I'm arguing at least 200 quintillion here) and each uses limit removers to boost their stats. After that, Vegeta gets frozen in a triple or quadruple time stop, meaning he can't resist, adapt, or evolve past it.

All of your attacks and maneuvers are undone through karma and causality manipulation. If you attack me? No, you didn't. You need to prove you could even have the motivation to attack me once Jin purges your existence of malice and the intent to harm.

Jin is infinitely more versatile and has at worse comparable stats. You knew about his omnipresence going into this post and it didn't faze you so I know you must have some sort of counter, but whatever it is shouldn't be blitzing because you can not blitz a character omnipresent through space and time. Jin can step outside the confines of creation and literally insert his presence into a moment before the concept of Vegeta ever existed. How could you reach me when you're not even in the same dimensional plane?

Next, there's Jin's skill. Jin is a martial artist at heart so he'll engage Vegeta at some point in an actual physical contest, but Vegeta would get annihilated in terms of skill. I haven't even posted any of the major Recoilless feats yet. The Dean fight is a feat grail that I'll post in time. I also haven't talked about his weapons (Dragon bones/yeoui/Geonduwoon) because they're a little redundant. But between Jin's versatility and immortality, I don't really see a win condition for you.

You raised the bar enough that only Jin's best feats are relevant to compete here. Posting anything other than universal would be a waste of time at this point. I already mentioned that Jin "became the world" even before his Nirvana ascension (world means universe) when he was fighting Mujin. This demonstrates that they became one with the universe throughBrahman.

Even universal is inconsequential to Vegeta so for your sake it’s on you to prove you can match up with him, otherwise the disparity is so great being in his very presence could threaten death for you.

This came afterthe kick that purified the universe and purged it of all malice,which I would consider a universal reality-warping feat tied into his skill/strength

I’m not sure this is a great feat given the manner of Jin Mori’s powerset. It would be one thing if he was solely using sheer force to warp the fabric of the universe on this scale but he has reality warping so how much of this can you really attribute to his raw strength?

And keep in mind, even if you successfully defend this feat you’re still weaker than SSG Goku from the first arc of super which becomes his base by the second arc… As things are right now you’re banking on limit breaking multipliers and skills to allow him to punch well above his base which we will see if it works.

GoH universes are also static universes nearly infinite in size at this point in the story (making it automatically bigger than your macrocosm).

There’s no such thing as “nearly infinite” in size, you’re either infinite or you aren’t. Any insanely high number you can think of is still infinitely below infinity. That’s the whole point, and your attempt at asserting GoH’s universes are bigger than DB’s has officially backfired. Because if I desired it I could go by the statements that suggest Dragon Ball’s macrocosm is infinite in size.

Gallery

1. ”infinite galaxies”
2. “Infinitely expansive….endless….. innumerable…”
3. Heaven (a planet in otherworld) said to be as big as the universe.
4. Reminder the world of the supreme kai is 1/10th the size of the macrocosm.

These are true descriptions of an infinite cosmos, and if we took everything at face value Vegeta would scale multiple infinite times over Jin Mori’s “nearly infinite“ cosmos. But in actuality…. I take this as a way to just describe the universe is very big rather than actually infinite just like the “near infinite“ statement you shown which doesn’t even make sense. But if you do try to see how close to infinite we can get you’ll lose, I suggest you don’t bother with that again.

Especially since “Infinite Zamasu“ was merging with entire timelines, not just a macrocosm which as I said would already be bigger than a singular GoH universe.

Once Jin ascends to Nirvana, he oversees all creation, which is multi-universal in this context (as GoH has at least a dozen universes/alt-dimensions, more on that later).

A dozen universes in GoH is like one or at most(being insanely charitable) two macrocosms in DB. Honestly more like one, but something that can’t be overlooked is just how much smaller the world Jin mori inhabits compared to Vegeta.

After this, it's just a matter of up-scaling, where I think a have a numerical edge thanks to Jin's skill. He has a technique called limit removers (Jeabongchim) where he canmultiply his strength and speed 250,000x over. Beyond that, in terms of power, Jin would scale toSatan's ability to combine cloning and Jeabongchim. So he should be able toclone himself infinitelyand make at least245 quintillion clonesthat are each 250,000x multiversal.

I almost don’t know where to begin here.

Let’s first start off with what you yourself admit towards the end of your post

And last time I checked nothing in the OP we agreed on allows you to ignore that. Stipulations you yourself set are things like

Combatants are in character but willing to do whatever it takes to win

It’s not in character, the stipulations you laid out are these characters are in character, and he didn’t do it when it would’ve been useful in his final fight. So what in the OP says we ignore all of this when YOU claim it’s not in character for him? Even if I allow this you lose the game for multipliers. Goku was a multi solar system level character in SSJ3 in the Buu Saga(which is 4,000-40,000 times base ftr) but SSG, which doesn’t stack on his yellow SSJ forms, made him leap to universal a difference of power well into the quintillion’s even without taking into consideration DB’s larger macrocosm.

The gap gets even larger when you take into account SSB is 50x SSG, SSBE is 20x blue(comparable to KKx20) and UE is comparable to MUI even without taking further damage to increase its power. Which is again something that needs to be pointed out, saiyans are bred for combat constantly evolving and adapting to get stronger and more skilled by fighting so much so they can jump tiers in a fight.

This is further improved upon by Ultra Ego, which grants him all damage he takes as fuel.

Which allowed him to go from UE Vegeta/MUI Goku both getting handled by Gas to Vegeta alone seriously damaging and scaring Gas. Even if you were lucky enough to scratch Vegeta he would just get stronger. You would need to massively outclass him in power just to start taxing him and overcome his damage absorption, and this is easier said than done cause Vegeta had taken beatings from people stronger than his best forms in his base form and kept fighting.

1. Kid Buu
2. Jiren

Kid buu was terrified from Vegeta despite being the embodiment of negativity and evil, all cause he should’ve been erased from existence altogether but he kept fighting. Vegeta had been fighting a battle royale in the ToP, and had eliminated Toppo before going on to fight Jiren yet again with Goku till he was beaten out of his strongest form. And yet kept getting beat on (impressing Beerus) till he was finally defeated. The whole scene is like 10 minutes of him getting beaten on while weakened but you get the idea, I won’t screen record it all unless you ask.

So imagine how much harder it is to take down Vegeta when he has a form specifically for enhancing his power when taking damage something he didn’t have against those two?

So he should be able toclone himself infinitelyand make at least245 quintillion clonesthat are each 250,000x multiversal

Clones don’t work on Vegeta, cause FSF can undo it.

As I explained, it tears apart power gained by fusions or absorptions which counters your ability to drain/absorb souls. Literally any power that isn’t innate to your character will be stripped away from you, and apply the opposite principl for countering cloning. He can undo it by forcing cloned bodies back to the original, so this is useless which will be made more clear with other abilities later.

This is of course, overlooking in character tactics. Given you’re talking about him scaling off of what satan did

But I'm confident that infinitely repeating clones with 250,000x multiverse-level power are at worst matching you. (The minimum multiverse attack power would be 245 quintillions multiplied by 250k as a baseline. That's a big number).

I already talked about the boosts SSG gave and the higher forms, how SSG made a multi solar system level character jump to being able to nullify attacks that can destroy the macrocosm. And how it got absorbed into his base….

…then they stack higher forms onto that. That’s not all though, there are several time skips in the series before they get to where they are now. Like

• Goku and Vegeta spending 3 years training together in the HTC.
• The events of DBS Broly where it’s confirmed the duo are stronger than ever( this is Post ToP).
• I shown this in my opener but all the training Vegeta did on Yardrat for 2 months that polished his soul gave him a huge power buff. So much so that in SSBE he was stronger than an UIO Goku who spent six months training with Meerus an Angel.

In between every arc and during every arc they’re training and getting stronger. Like it’s absolutely insane but during the ToP they constantly reach new heights of power despite the whole thing being less than 50 minutes. Like Jiren states Goku and Vegeta have sharpened their attacks implying they’re above UI sign as that’s when Goku last fought Jiren. And then towards the end Goku and Freiza fight relatively with 17 in their base form, when 17 has already shown he can fight a SSB Goku right before the ToP(like days before) and even briefly managed to clash with a suppressed Jiren. Unlike anyone else but 18, 17 has infinite energy so no matter how long he fights he still remains at FP and yet by the end of the ToP(48 minutes long) Goku and Freiza are basically on the level of SSB/Golden Freiza was before the ToP started. This is despite at this point being so “weakened“ he could barely turn SSJ, but it just goes to show you how the longer a saiyan fights the stronger they become.

They grow even more the more they’re on the back foot in a fight, like a shown in my opener. And if that’s how much they can grow in less than 1 hour imagine the leaps of power they gain when they do stuff like train for years on end in the time chamber. Hell I talked about how absurd Jiren is but Freiza believed “no one in existence could beat Broly as he was” and this was just Broly as a mere SSJ. He then went FSSJ which forced Gogeta to go SSB to take him on

Gallery

But Goku/Vegeta had surpassed him after that. As Whis states he doesn’t know anyone stronger than they are in the universe

But while Granola could one tap MUI Goku after this point(after his accuracy went down), Granola was so much weaker than Gas his punch couldn’t even make it past Gas’ aura.

Gallery

But as I shown, Vegeta could damage Gas and his Ultra Ego started to evolve even more from the battle.

I want to say one more time the basis of your scaling is a kick that effected the universe and after that it’s upscaling, which is fine. But Vegeta’s showings are much more casual, are above your baseline, and he currently upscales higher. Like his very unlocking SSBE had Toppo flying and he was knocking around a suppressed Jiren.

Gallery

I give Vegeta a healthy advantage in power.

And the true implications of a 5D being seem to have been lost in translation somewhere because the counterexample you posted for Vegeta isn't equivalent.

Are you implying what I shown isn’t evidence of being higher dimensional? Something to remember is we are 3 dimensional beings, it’s beyond our comprehension to actually imagine something that literally transcends us. In fact there isn’t a commonly agreed idea as to what the 5th dimension is unlike how the fourth is agreed to be time, so not every character needs to portray it the same. But yea, being a higher dimensional being means you transcend things like time and space, which I did prove for Vegeta.

Like Jiren is confirmed to transcend time multiple times, and despite Hit being in a pocket space Jiren casually was still able to interact with him. Transcending the 4th dimension is 5th dimensional, and as I shown to you otherworld is a higher plane of existence than the mortal universe.

Gallery

1. Another level of reality
2. Koyama is the screenwriter for the anime and movies(Z movies/anime). And while this is strictly his opinion here when asked he says the world where the gods live is at least 5th dimensional. Which I only bring up cause it lines up with the next statement
3. Transcending dimensions imperceptible from the mortal

If it transcends dimensions that can’t be perceived in the mortal world that means this it goes beyond dimensions we already can’t see, like the 4th dimension and if we took it being plural as literal you could assume 6th. Which again lines up with what the screenwriter for the anime(I have anime feats) had stated.

Goku has outright confirmed time isn’t something that exists in otherworld in the original Japanese text, which is why his going SSJ3 drained all the time he had when he was dead.

And this stuff shouldn’t be a surprise, like in this same arc we have Gotenks casually busting out of the HTC by screaming. A dimension that has been sometimes referred to as the dimension of time.

Gallery

So as I said already, Goku was going to destroy a realm that is at least 5th dimensional in his fight with Beerus. Vegeta should have no problem interacting with Jin Mori at all. Hell if we were taking things at face value MUI Goku/Jiren are said to transcend the gods, who are from such higher planes I shown.

But with this, Jin is obviously never losing in that category. Even though Goku gathered energy from an area larger than the physical universe, that still doesn't compare to the speed of Mujin's destroying all 245 quintillion Satan clones across the solar system in seconds. A feat that has been referenced a couple of times now due to its sheer absurdity and applicability to different aspects of a battle once you come to terms with how insane it is. Even my lowballed estimates come out to about 3 undecillion times FTL, which is 3.3 trillion times faster than the initial expansion of the universe during the inflationary epoch (300 sextillion x FTL).

And keep in mind Mori is fast enough to blitz Mujin, and this is base speed without the 250k multiplier from limit removers. So even with your own upscaling from the universal distance feat, Jin is at worst several trillion times faster than you. At best, whatever 3 billion times 250k is (I think 10 quadrillion?).

This has me scratching my head. Cause I obviously made it clear that this feat isn’t the best feat in the speed section, so I have no idea why you targeted it specifically. I don’t actually believe your calc would be correct to begin with as it’s not ki leaving a universe, it’s ki traveling outside of the physical universe and into the center of a much larger one than ours. But anyway, even ignoring the time skips and buffs, as I said Goku was matching Hit’s time skipping with sheer speed. This was even stated by King kai as Goku “forcing his way into the future”, all with his raw speed. Big numbers are cool and all, but ultimately the level of speed Goku operates on can’t be quantified which is why I’m not going to bother with numbers.

That’s why I also mentioned Granola’s having “faster than instant“ techniques, cause if taken at face value add credence to what I’m talking about. And for what it is worth, like I said we agreed on anime/manga feats and the original Z movies are canon to the anime as proven when Garlic Jr has a filler anime arc. Which I bring up because in M6 we see Meta Cooler grabbing Goku mid instant transmission and Goku intercepting Meta Cooler mid instant transmission as a ssj.

1.

2.

So yeah, billions of times faster than Vegeta you are not. You also said your best feat for skill was near your conclusion so I’ll address it here since it has to do with your combat speed

Mori while hypersonic in speed was able to see Mujin Park in slow motion, outpace him, and deliver multiple strikes that were pushing him, even though the difference in their stats then was measurably at least many decillion times greater than it is between Jin and Vegeta

As I shown before UE Vegeta is relative with a current MUI Goku in speed, but why is that impressive? Well we already went through Goku’s skill feat of most notably taking on hit who was many tiers beyond him in stats(he just bullied a SSB Vegeta) while Goku himself was in his base. Managing to predict and keep up with hit who was skipping forward into time, Goku was a near equal to someone massively outstating him and using time manipulation all because of his skills. Yet Whis still exclaims this level of skill/combat speed is too slow, and that they must train for actions without thinking to massively improve their combat abilities.

He is referring to Ultra Instinct, an angelic technique that Gods who have been around longer than the dinosaurs haven’t been able to master.

And while not Ultra Instinct it was remarkably close, Master Roshi(baseline LS/FTL) was able to dodge attacks from Jiren due to it. Let me reiterate with an inferior technique to UI Master Roshi(who is around LS) manages to avoid attacks from Jiren who benefits from the speed scaling I’ve already gone over even when suppressed.

Gallery

When Goku attains even the imperfect UI in the manga he pretty moved was FTE to Jiren

Gallery

And with MUI?

Remember that despite Goku’s skill and speed even SSBKKx10 couldn’t even tag Jiren once, but his speed with UI allows him to do the above. And this isn’t even the perfected MUI he attains later, I don’t think Jin is faster than Vegeta at all.

This is probably going to be a big part of the debate, how Vegeta fairs against Jin Mori’s hax? I think Vegeta can deal with it, within DB it’s shown consistently that when there is a significant power gap you can resist even some of the most potent types of hax.

Gallery

1. Shenron confirms it’s beyond his power to kill the saiyans.

2-3. Goku in Ultra Instinct Omen is so much faster than Moro he can ”dodge” his energy being drained.… somehow. In M9 Gohan negs energy draining/paralysis just because he was too strong for it.

4/6. Porunga can’t teleport Goku back to earth against his will(Porunga has casually recreated large planets and restored even Buu saga Goku’s power), but Goku was able to resist being transported back. These wishes don’t require consent at all FTR. And to further my point Arale is a toon force character able to manipulate the laws of reality freely in anyway she wants for a gag(doing stuff like poking the Sun and having it act like a balloon making day time into night and fighting SSB Goku pre ToP). But Beerus is stated by Goku to be immune to her abilities and would casually destroy her if he wanted to

5. Dabura has the ability to turn anyone to stone by spitting on them, Trunks blocks this with his bare hands.

7. Hit’s time stopping didn’t work on Goku in God Mode cause Goku was above his level(this only applies for the manga, anime version hit has different mechanics). Keep in mind Hit’s time manipulation is extremely powerful as I’ll get into later.

8-10. Even though Buu managed to turn Vegito into candy it couldn’t depower him, in fact he was beating Buuhan worse. Let me reiterate, buu completely eradicated Vegito’s DNA and changed his matter into candy but Vegito’s power remained.

11. Freiza takes being hit with a piece of Sidra’s energy of destruction and managed to contain it, this is a move that completely destroys your existence and soul. Goku also gets trapped and betrayed by Frieza, being stuck in such energy for a prolonged amount of time.

12. Vegeta punches through hakai which is destruction itself, he was able to blast through Toppo’s encasing himself in energy of destruction as armor which erased any attack that hits him from existence. This doubles as a good durability for withstanding final explosion a move intended to kill you as you’re detonating all the energy in your body for explosive power.

But this isn’t all, one of the best showings I can bring up actually involves a weaker character resisting a stronger person’s hax. The instance is involving the Grand Priest, who is the second strongest being in the Dragon Ball multiverse after Zeno. The GP altered things to disable abilities like flight in the WoV, one can’t even levitate or hover which is a showing of law manipulation/power nullification.

Gallery

As this wasn’t a blanket “increasing gravity in a given area” but it specifically disable abilities for the fighters as proven with the Supreme Kai and Beerus. And the Grand Priest has the power to casually change the world of void, and yet Jiren who’s basically personified power in this arc was able to ignore this altogether as a result of his power(he spent half of the tournament just floating).

Within DB’s power system power transcends all, be it

• Matter manipulation
• Reality warping/causality manipulation
• Time manipulation
• existence erasure
• Soul destruction
• law manipulation
• power nullification
• Mind control

While Jin Mori has a large pool of abilities Vegeta benefits from the fact that he is much much more powerful, and this has allowed him to resist erasure that warped an endless expansion of nothingness. To put things into perspective Jiren while strong isn’t stronger than any of the 12 angels in DBS, and they’re all fodder to the grand priest. But he was still able to resist the power nullification of the Grand Priest as a result of how strong he is, and Vegeta is stronger than Jiren currently.

And things get worse with FSF if Jin Mori absorbed the powers of his verse…

Gallery

…..then it’s subject to being taken from you. Which seems to be the case.

can literally open dimension rifts across the multiverse and summon alternate versions to aid him in battle.

All of which are weaker than this Jin Mori, in fact most of them seem about solar system-galaxy range. Correct me if I missed some universal scaling for them.

Let's start with Jin's time stop. He can layer time stop at least THREE times over.So the faeries who have adaptation and evolutionwho adapted to resist the time stop were still frozen in time by the higher extradimensional layers. So in order to survive time stop here, you need feats of resisting time stop that freeze characters who resist time stop that can freeze characters who resist the standard level of time stop...

"Triple time stop of the New World complete" refers to three layers of time stop stacked on top of each other. And this is after the faeries shattered multiple layers of time stop.

What is the “standard level of a time stop”? These abilities vary, like what is the range? And resisting time manipulation and transcending it aren’t the same thing, think of it like a stick figure being on paper and if you were to draw a circle around them. That would essentially be a wall for them they can’t get around, or even if they could get through one can they get through three more? But for us as 3rd dimensional beings such a thing wouldn’t be an obstacle for us, as we dimensional transcend it altogether.

Same thing applies here, although Hit’s time manipulation has worked on people who are higher dimensional, can create time as he could use his time abilities in a void without time or space, can create a parallel world with his power and Jiren still transcended his time powers altogether.

I don’t see this being much of an issue.

The fairy colony is not fodder either, they literally wiped out multiple universes... (world means universe).

And? How long did it take them? And aren’t there like millions at least of them? Their individual power doesn’t need to be as high as universal if there are swarms of them. And did they destroy all of the matter in the universe or did they destroy all the space-time that makes up the universe as well? I shouldn’t have to tell you how different those things are, and how often stuff like the latter are done in DBS.

Morican also decelerate time and add vibrations to slowed time to temporally disintegrate you even if you have time manip resistance.

Broken link, but anyway DB works on the multiverse theory in that when you travel back in time you create a new universe with that action where things happen differently. Despite this Beerus erased Zamasu in the “present” which is supposed to effect even the future Zamasu ignoring the laws that the multiverse works on and destroying him across all flows of time(Black only still stays around because of the time ring). If Vegeta can resist Hakai, he should be fine here.

You can also get casually sucked in and trapped in another dimension.

No BFR is a stipulation? Also do you want me to repost Vegeta busting out of HTC by powering up? This has happened multiple times in the series, so many times that Mr Popo threatened to ban him. I can also show you Buu tearing through the dimensional barriers of it cause he wanted candy…..

Gallery

…..or black scarring the universe. This moment in particular involved black doing something that is beyond his own comprehension, which is worth noting as Goku black is Zamasu just in an alternate Goku’s body. None of the other Kai’s understood what had happened, who are from the other World/supreme Kai world which are higher planes.

Dimensional stuff mean nothing to dragon ball characters, there is a reason the ToP was in a void without time or space.

Or Jin can also trap you in stasis fields, a much incapacitating spatial isolation:

Transcending time means transcending space, but even powering up would destroy this spatial area.

As you'll see is part of my strategy, Jin can also combine his Moriverse with cloning and Jeabongchim/Limit Removers. To totally overwhelm you with numbers, versatility, adaptability, and force.

Even if you can prove to me they’re universal(which I don’t think you can) they would instantly die being in the same solar system as Vegeta when he powers up.

And there will be clones/versions that have infinite regeneration.

Hakai

Naturally, Mori will also have soul manipulation on top of time and space manipulation. Okhwang is a much, much weaker God than the Supreme God andhe can absorb souls or forcibly transfer his soul into other bodies. He was also capable ofabsorbing the souls/life force of other humans by just moving his staff and transferring it to the Energy Stones.Andhe forced the spirit of King Uma out of her host. (She was confirmed to be a soul inhabiting Baek's body).

Mori steals all of Vegeta's powers, not just copies them.

When you copy someone's powers they can still use them, but when you steal them, you lose those abilities while I gain them

The Grand Priest couldn’t nullify Jiren’s abilities cause his power was so immense, as I proven DB characters are able to nullify even reality warping when the difference in power is substantial. Prove you can steal Vegeta’s powers

I can manipulate probability to ensure this happens even if the odds are low (1/100 trillionth of a chance is nothing).

Based on your scans it looks like they just said what was occurring was extremely unlikely, not that he manipulated events so an extremely unlikely event occurred. I could be wrong, I’m open to you showing that. But luck manipulation is just an indirect application of reality warping, it’s not changing anything if your reality warping can’t deal with Vegeta.

Next, Jin summons the Moriverse and we get to work. The Jin's all clone themselves infinitely ala Satan (I'm arguing at least 200 quintillion here) and each uses limit removers to boost their stats.

It doesn’t matter how many of them there are even ignoring Vegeta has direct counters to abilities like cloning, their power is inconsequential to Vegeta and would die when he powers up.

You need to prove you could even have the motivation to attack me once Jin purges your existence of malice and the intent to harm.

The ball is in your court, I already shown people who can warp an endless realm with a wave of the hand get their hax resisted by someone below Vegeta. Why are you doing better?

Jin is infinitely more versatile and has at worse comparable stats.

1. Doesn’t matter when they will be ignored or be entirely ineffective

2. No

How could you reach me when you're not even in the same dimensional plane?

This isn’t even a discussion at this point, Jin Mori doesn’t dimensionally transcend Vegeta so you can drop this argument and use something else.

Next, there's Jin's skill. Jin is a martial artist at heart so he'll engage Vegeta at some point in an actual physical contest, but Vegeta would get annihilated in terms of skill.

Not only do you need to prove this, but as soon as Jin attacks Vegeta the response he will get in return will be

Jin Mori will just be amping Vegeta with whatever minuscule amount of power he has to offer when he fights Vegeta directly rather than using hax.

But between Jin's versatility and immortality, I don't really see a win condition for you.

You mentioned Jin Mori being deathless and immortal? Well 1 doesn’t matter, with Hakai you don’t even go to the afterlife your existence is completely destroyed. And 2, Goku was erasing MZ who also is immortal granted by the Super Dragon Balls which as I said can do anything according to Zeno and causally restored all the universes Zeno deleted.

The only reason MZ managed to avoid this was cause he used Mai as a shield, and like I said Vegeta is further down the GoD path with actual training with destruction abilities. And truthfully “immortal” is an overblown title in fiction, absolutely no one but a true omnipotent level being is actually unkillable. Prove to me Jin Mori’s able to withstand an existence erasure that was destroying someone who had “immortality” granted by a being with stronger reality warping than Jin Mori possesses.

and the version you're facing specifically is omnipresent.

On the 3rd dimensional plane? While nice they’re on a similar dimensional plane, as I said Vegeta will have no problem interacting with Jin Mori.

Mori while hypersonic in speed was able to see Mujin Park in slow motion, outpace him, and deliver multiple strikes that were pushing him, even though the difference in their stats then was measurably at least many decillion times greater than it is between Jin and Vegeta.

I mean as crazy it is to hear, the disparity would be larger for Master Roshi and Jiren, but his inferior skills were allowing him to dodge around Jiren. Which as I proven UIO is massively better than what Roshi did, and MUI was straight blitzing Jiren in an absurd fashion.