CaV: Ultimate Thor (Kevd4wg) vs MCU Thor (BuildHare)

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buildhare

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#1  Edited By buildhare  Online

Battle of the Thunder Gods!

MCU Thor

Represented by BuildHare
Represented by BuildHare

vs

Ultimate Thor

Represented by Kevd4wg
Represented by Kevd4wg

Rules

  • No prior knowledge
  • Prime MCU Thor, Second Supersuit Ult. Thor
  • Morals on, but believe the other Thor is an evil imposter
  • Ult. Thor has Mjolnir, MCU Thor has Stormbreaker
  • Win by KO, Incap or death

Battlefield

Uninhabited mountain range, start 100 feet apart
Uninhabited mountain range, start 100 feet apart

Challenge A Viner Rules

  • Do not start extra arguments, post unnecessary scans/videos or interfere in the debate itself in any way. If you wish to inform either of us on anything important or correct us on a point, send us a private message.
  • If any of the above is excessively broken, we may request a mod to assist.
  • Your vote should be decided based on the debating quality and abilities of the participants. Not necessarily on the characters they are representing.
  • A reason for your voting choice would be greatly appreciated too.
  • May the best debater win.

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BladeOfFury

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RBT

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#3 RBT  Online

T4v pls

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Viking1205

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T4V

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CT-5555

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ChampionJoe

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T4V (I think that means my vote will count, yes?)

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thanosii

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T4v

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King-Ragnar

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smh tag

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TakenStew22

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#9 TakenStew22  Online

TAEP.

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Lord_God

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Kevd4wg

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@buildhare Do you want to go first, or do you want me to?

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Edgelord91

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Alphamon

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#19 buildhare  Online
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#20  Edited By buildhare  Online

Thor Odinson

No Caption Provided

God of Thunder, Prince of Asgard, The Strongest Avenger yadayada I won't pretend you don't know who he is already.

The Mighty Thor

As an Asgardian his physiology is inherently massively superhuman, but due to his lineage he's pushed far beyond what most of his people can dream of physically.

Strength

As per the mighty part of his name, he's a heckin strong boy;

Loading Video...

...resisting the strength of a huge dragon without real strain. Even better, he's resisted Thanos in a contest of strength after having the absolute shit kicked out of him (albeit inevitably going to lose);

Loading Video...

This is our first example of Thor's fairly linear improvement throughout his superhero career in the MCU, as Thanos has been consistently portrayed as above base Hulk in raw strength alone. Cut back to the Avengers era Thor and he needed two arms just to resist one of Hulks.

Thor did use to have a major issue in the fact that despite his plethora of appearances he somehow managed to garner 0 notable strength feats for his tier;

Loading Video...

...thankfully the one he's got now is pretty outstanding. On Nidivalier he was strong enough to stand tall against force sufficient to move several gigantic rings and break giant chunks of ice. Given they're each several kilometres in length and several are being moved at the same time this is a herculean feat of physical might.

I'm pretty sure we agree MCU Thor is physically stronger though so I'll leave it at that for now.

Durability

Odinson is hard to meaningfully hurt in general, people like Iron Man can't do it even when everything is going in their favor (Amped Suit/Weakened Thor), even when he basically gets a free bull-rush on him;

Loading Video...

...not even on a superficial level. Weakened?, I hear you ask. Yes! The bifrost wasn't operational during the Avengers, as a result Odin had to harness some dark energy to get Thor planet side. This was an elegant process, consisting of Odinson basically getting yeeted through the void straight into the earth;

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  1. Travelling through the Void itself is apparently inherently a painful process. Given Thor's already been exposed to the vaccum of space moving at high speeds (here) and didn't have that kind of visceral reaction it's likely a pocket dimension/wormhole of some kind.
  2. Collides with a mountain range at such speed he can't react, despite being extremely high when he exits whatever he was in.
  3. Thor is momentarily knocked out, with the damage left in his wake visible on the mountain range.

Just to avoid going over the scan limit for this post, here's the exchange between Odin and Thor immediately prior (Thor TDW Prelude #1);

Thor: You speak of Dark Energy. You can harness it?

Odin: Yes, but not without a cost.

Thor: Father, your health--

Odin: To both of us.

Thor: Ah.

As a durability feat alone it's pretty juicey, especially for a significantly worse Thor than the one we've got now, never-mind the fact he goes on to be mostly unphased by anything Iron Man can throw at him straight afterwards. His blunt force durability is pretty great, his resistance to heat and energy makes it look pathetic by comparison;

Loading Video...

The infamous star level Thor rears his head. This can be wanked as hell if misinterpreted, all because of this line;

You're about to take the full force of a star.

...the entire process revolves around melting down the Uru to forge Stormbreaker, full force in this context means all the heat the star can produce, is being harnessed in that beam. Meaning in those minutes Odinson is exposed to the heat of the neutron star he's taking the most heat the core temperatures can produce (apparently somewhere from 1011 to 1012kelvin. Source.), and despite that manages to endure the entire thing and hold it open. He did suffer severe injuries but the heat he was exposed to in the star forge is so absurd there's very few things that can come close to it. It's an insane durability feat across the board, one that means anyone who is using energy or heat based attacks on this version of Thor is basically shit out of luck as it's his best stat.

Speed

Thor the slow is still not that horrible, he's fast on his feet;

No Caption Provided

...and has pretty sharp reflexes;

Deflecting plasma bolts after they've been fired
Deflecting plasma bolts after they've been fired
Able to deflect the Destroyers blasts
Able to deflect the Destroyers blasts

...easily above the Super-Soldier or Ironmen of the MCU, but still not exactly a the Flash. Regardless I'm pretty sure Ult. Thor is far from a speedster so either one of the sons of Odin having a relevant advantage in speed seems unlikely.

Lightning Control and Abilities

No longer limited to merely an extension of his weapon, The Lord of Thunder has got an extreme level of control over his element at this point. It arcs off him constantly when he's in the zone;

No Caption Provided

...even when he's completely busy focusing on something else. Even when he's committed to a big AOE strike he's still constantly doing it, as well as independent lightning bolts in the vicinity

No Caption Provided

Another cool ability he's got nowdays is essentially electrokinesis, allowing him to move beings without actually touching them;

No Caption Provided

...but you want destruction, what good is a variety of uses if they can't do anything? For attack potency with lightning he's always had insane feats, even in his very first fight;

No Caption Provided

It's not done there either, the force of his attack keeps destroying the icy landscape of Jotunheim for miles. It's been argued in that past it just started a chain reaction of already weak ice but this hasn't ever been implied, and in fact is directly contradicted in the screenplay;

No Caption Provided

...and that was one lightning bolt.

Stormbreaker

Basically just a better version of Mjlonir with an axe head as well as the hammer, it's stated to be the greatest weapon of Asgard.

Even with the clearly worse Mjolnir/Thor combo of his first appearance it was capable of augmenting his blows to stupendous levels;

Loading Video...

Video here if it doesn't embed.

...visibly shaking the rainbow bridge, even going as far as shaking the palace itself. The palace size is going to be relevant at several points so for posterity;

No Caption Provided

...it's considerably larger than most if not all of the other mountains on Asgard and is more comparable to a range of smaller ones.

Outside of the obvious advantages of a powerful weapon, he doesn't actually need to be wielding it to be effective with it as he seems to have a high level of control over the path of his weapon;

No Caption Provided

...here leaving Mjolnir to circle constantly through an army of Surturs minions.

As an axe, it can also cut through stuff pretty good, duh;

Loading Video...

...due to that fact a thrown Stormbreaker can be a lot more lethal than Mjolnir, as the very same Thanos also learnt;

Loading Video...

Just shit luck for him in general.

Initial Thoughts

Very little;

  • Thor's extremely strong and durable, near immune to most forms of energy/heat based on the star feat.
  • He's not that slow
  • Thor has a varied array of abilities regarding lightning outside of just spamming bolts
  • Stormbreaker is overpowered in general and Odinson can do a lot with it

...but really, I'll wait to hear about what Ult. Thor can actually do in his supersuit before I make serious judgments, or even begin to dive into skill.

*It's not formatted as nicely now but at least the videos work*

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Lord_God

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Nice

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Void_Reborn

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TakenStew22

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#24 TakenStew22  Online
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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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Oh my... TAEP.

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RajjarsAlt

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#26  Edited By RajjarsAlt

tape

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Cergic

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Good opener.

There is one very nice combat speed feat i hope you point out in his fight with hulk on the heli*

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Kevd4wg

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@buildhare: Nice post, I'm re-reading some rn, but I'll try to get a post up soon

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DarkPsychicLord_Prime

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This should be interesting, T4V

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KryptonianKing88

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Ult Thor can't be that weak

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xzone

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SupremeGeneration

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I'll read but due to obvious bias, won't vote.

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Kevd4wg

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I'll read but due to obvious bias, won't vote.

I know, Thor traumatized you pretty bad. Fortunately there's no Hulk alternative here so you shouldn't have too much bias in voting.

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buildhare

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#34 buildhare  Online
@kevd4wg said:

@buildhare: Nice post, I'm re-reading some rn, but I'll try to get a post up soon

It's been less than a day, where's the post?

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@buildhare said:

@kevd4wg said:

@buildhare: Nice post, I'm re-reading some rn, but I'll try to get a post up soon

It's been less than a day, where's the post?

Baithare

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The Ultimate Thor

No Caption Provided

Introduction

So before actually getting into the battle there's a few things I need to clarify with Ultimate Thor, particularly regarding his power levels as they're somewhat complicated. For this battle, I'm using Thor in his second Super Suit. His first Super Suit was built with the intent to make him the strongest Super Human on the planet(Including the likes of Iron Man) and gave him Superhuman physicals, the ability to fly, 4 dimensional teleportation, and the ability to control weather.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
The Ultimates 2 #4

However, unlike that scan implies, Thor was not actually insane, but rather the actual God of Thunder re-incarnated as a human following Ragnarok. Loki warped Reality to make it seem to everyone that Thor was simply a mental patient, who thought they were reborn as Thor. Thor proved this false when after having his Super Suit taken away, he was given back his true god powers by Odin and easily defeated Loki/his army. The Thor with true God Powers is not being used here and is the version with his most outlandish/highest end feats, which of course are the most shared on CV. With his super suit he does not reach this level. Later on, Thor brings Asgard back to Earth, however the Golden City is targeted and destroyed by the Maker(an evil Reed Richards). This results in Thor losing his godly might and becoming human once again, thus needing a Super Suit. As a result, in Ultimate Comics: Ultimates #3 Tony Stark builds Thor a new suit, significantly stronger than the first - to the point that the first suit is described as simply "adequate."

No Caption Provided

This is the suit Thor is using in this battle and though it does not pack the full power of God Thor, it is still highly formidable and capable of beating MCU Thor in my opinion.

The only issue with using just Super Suit Thor is a bit of a lack of appearances relative to most characters in the Ultimate Universe due to only being in a Supersuit for like half of them. This means I'll have to do a bit more scaling then I generally like, however at the start of the Ultimate Universe, it was an incredibly cohesive vision between a small group of writers(like 2-3). During that point I'll try to stick to the same author for scaling, and past that point(when Loeb comes aboard), I'll absolutely stick to scaling under only one author.

However, one thing I want to make clear is that I do not think this is a mismatch. I did not take this match to prove that Ultimate Thor would stomp MCU Thor or something like that, so if that's the expectation, that's not what you're getting here. I think this match is fairly close with both Thor's having advantages, but that Ultimate Thor takes overall.

Close Quarters Combat

So I'm pretty confident this battle will come down to fighting close. MCU Thor seems to generally prefer fighting like that and Ultimate Thor definitely does, though he's been shown to make distance in the past if need be.

I'm pretty sure we agree MCU Thor is physically stronger though so I'll leave it at that for now.

Yeah, I do think MCU Thor is stronger in terms of lifting strength, I also think lifting strength is absolutely irrelevant to this fight. Ultimate Thor has shown multiple ways of getting out of physicals grapples and encounters with no issue, whether that be through calling Mjolnir on people or by using lightning.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
The Ultimates 2 #5

And that's only assuming that MCU Thor tries to force a contest of strength because Ultimate Thor certainly would not and in close range confrontations would really just opt for hitting MCU Thor with Mjolnir or contesting a conflict of strength with mjolnir.

With CQC, the obvious thing I have to prove is that Ultimate Thor can put down his MCU counterpart. That shouldn't be a problem though seeing as Ultimate Thor has been shown against durable opponents to just hit them until they're down like he did against Ultimate Hulk - cracking and breaking his bones as well as puncturing a lung.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
The Ultimates #5

That type of repeated, brutal assault should prove pretty effective against MCU Thor in the sense of being able to get good hits on him. In terms of having the actual power to put MCU Thor down, I don't imagine that being a problem either. For example, in his second Super Suit when angry and wanting to blow off steam, Thor goes to the largest mountain in the Rocky Mountains and starts hitting it just to blow off steam.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Ultimate Comics Ultimates #18.1

Despite the fact that the damage from Thor's hits are being partially blocked by the mountain, we can still see a huge cloud of dust/ash come out of it and Thor's hits were registering on scales watching for seismic activity - basically meaning he was shaking that area as well. I can't imagine that kind of damage not affecting MCU Thor and combined with the brutal beatdown strategy above, should be able to put him down pretty easily.

In terms of simply taking hits from MCU Thor, blunt-force really shouldn't be a problem at the very least

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
The Ultimates 2 #5

Here Thor is bullrushed into the ground with enough force that the surrounding area gets absolutely destroyed and a dust cloud forms up near the size of a mountain. Despite the fact that Thor got hit with the initial bullrush of this force and was stuck right inbteween the collision and the ground when it hits, he gets up without slowing down at all and with seemingly no damage. That damage feat honestly seems to be kinda pushing it for what MCU Thor can do and in his weaker Super Suit, Ultimate Thor completely shrugged it off.

Overall in CQC, I see Ultimate Thor just coming onto MCU Thor with a beatdown.

Speed

So I basically think Speed will be almost irrelevant in this debate. I say almost for a pretty simple reason, any skill advantage that MCU Thor might have on Ultimate Thor is negated by the fact that Ultimate Thor can react to attacks significantly faster than MCU Thor can throw out. For example, in his fight with the Ultimates(in his weaker suit), Quicksilver sprints at him approaching Mach 1, yet Thor has no problem stopping him in his tracks

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
The Ultimates 2 #5

Even if MCU Thor has a significant skill advantage(which I'm hesitant to say he does, for when you do bring up skill), simply by the nature of being able to react to attacks faster than MCU Thor, while in combat with other people, Ultimate Thor should be able to stop him from pulling off any elaborate maneuvers.

Lightning

Ultimate Thor generally uses his lighting differently than MCU Thor. He tends to not do as many singular powerful blasts, but rather uses his lightning with more precision. However, that in no way means he's lacking in power. Even in the original Ultimates he was capable of unleashing huge blasts of lightning, showing as he took down several flagships of the Chitauri Armada.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
The Ultimates #12

These flagships were absolutely huge, just one was comparable in size to an entire military base, yet Thor took out multiple with ease. That's probably not enough to do any sizable amount of damage to Thor, but it doesn't need to be. As I mentioned, Ultimate Thor uses his lightning pretty strategically. For example, in his first fight against Hulk, he uses his lightning to set up his repeated pounding.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
The Ultimates #5

That's a pretty smart usage of power, and it's not something I've seen from MCU Thor, who seems generally to just prefer straight up brawling or the occasional lightning strike.

General Counters

This is our first example of Thor's fairly linear improvement throughout his superhero career in the MCU, as Thanos has been consistently portrayed as above base Hulk in raw strength alone. Cut back to the Avengers era Thor and he needed two arms just to resist one of Hulks.

I have to disagree with this assessment of linear improvement rather than just being difference of opinion in writers. I mean, in terms of raw strength, Thor got far more outclassed by Hulk in Ragnarok than he did in Avengers.

Loading Video...

And comparatively to other MCU directors, the Russors are neither the most consistent or the ones with the highest opinion of Hulk. Hell they had Giant Man basically outdo all of Hulk's greatest strength feats(Building and Leviathan). Meanwhile they've contradicted multiple statements about whether Thanos is as strong as Hulk or stronger than Hulk. Seems to me it's more directorial inconsistency than actual improvement, which has no real canonical reason for existing.

Odinson is hard to meaningfully hurt in general, people like Iron Man can't do it even when everything is going in their favor (Amped Suit/Weakened Thor), even when he basically gets a free bull-rush on him;

This seems extremely meh power wise. I mean MCU Iron Man has never exactly been the physically strongest, especially at that point in time and the collateral damage wasn't anything notable either.

Weakened? I hear you ask. Yes! The bifrost wasn't operational during the Avengers, as a result Odin had to harness some dark energy to get Thor planet side. This was an elegant process, consisting of Odinson basically getting yeeted through the void straight into the earth;

Beyond the questionable aspect of using tie in comics to affect the movie(though the writer of that tie in comic is also a screenplay writer for many MCU movies so I don't consider it a big deal), we have no idea how much this would weaken Thor or even for how long? Was Thor weakened for 30 minutes? An Hour? 5 days? Was Thor's power just a little bit worse? Cut in Half? Cut in a 1/4th? Was it even a weakening and not just hurting Thor while in the void? The tie in comic provides none of that information and makes the weakening itself pretty hard to use to establish Thor's actual power level.

As for the feat itself, I just don't find it that impressive. You can say it doesn't really count against Thor, but I can hardly call it a feat for Thor's durability when he was literally koed by the impact. That's in no way usable to the fight since... well if Thor's koed, he loses. The void does completely unquantifiable amounts of damage to Thor, and the only quantifiable part where he might've been weakened results in him being Koed. It'd be pretty hard to get more vague.

The infamous star level Thor rears his head. This can be wanked as hell if misinterpreted, all because of this line;

It's certainly impressive, but quite frankly... this was going to kill him. This is his absolute max, and I'm not even saying that Ultimate Thor will take him out with lightning(Though with a little bit of scaling I could certainly argue it), just knock him around and keep him off his toes/allow Ultimate Thor an opening or snap him out of a strength contest. If MCU Thor wants to make Ultimate Thor's lightning irrelevant, he needs to No-Sell it, and I do not see that being the case here.

Regardless I'm pretty sure Ult. Thor is far from a speedster so either one of the sons of Odin having a relevant advantage in speed seems unlikely.

Just off the reacting to Mach 1 Quicksilver while in combat, Ultimate Thor is much faster than MCU, but I've mentioned before that as a Thor, Ultimate Thor doesn't blitz or anything, just don't expect to perform any advanced skill techniques on Ultimate Thor either.

The Lord of Thunder has got an extreme level of control over his element at this point. It arcs off him constantly when he's in the zone;

Unfortunately it's incredibly weak. Thanos completely no-sold the lightning cloak in Endgame

No Caption Provided

And I know Thanos is durable, but Ultimate Thor has no-sold a fight essentially replicating the lightning cloak's feat against the Asgardians where he fought for Electro for an entire issue from the sky and stray bolts were one-shotting Super Soldiers, yet Ultimate Thor came out completely fine.

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Ultimate Six #6/7

So I don't see the lightning cloak being any more effecting.

One thing I want to clear up here though is that I think for a character with as limited appearances as Ultimate Thor, I don't think there should be a difference between energy durability and blunt-force durability(and piercing as well). Ultimate Thor really doesn't have that many showings in his super suit, and the vast majority of his encounters are with physical fighters, but considering he's never shown to be any weaker to energy attack than blunt-force, I don't see any reason to assume he's weaker against them here.

It's not done there either, the force of his attack keeps destroying the icy landscape of Jotunheim for miles. It's been argued in that past it just started a chain reaction of already weak ice but this hasn't ever been implied, and in fact is directly contradicted in the screenplay;

While the original destruction was certainly the shockwave of Thor's strike at first, it clearly moves away from this, as we see it not breaking in a shockwave pattern, with sections of ice falling down that simply doesn't work with a shockwave. Parts of it will even stop collapsing and then start again - that's not how a shockwave works.

And while it does travel a far distance, Jotenheim is made of just a somewhat thin sheet of ice - also confirmed in the script - which makes this feat far less impressive than if it was in a normal location. In fact, the script actually confirms that Jotenheim was falling apart before Thor even got there, which makes the ice collapsing under it's own weight more obvious and makes it seem like Thor was just accelerating something that was already happening far more obvious.

No Caption Provided

...it's considerably larger than most if not all of the other mountains on Asgard and is more comparable to a range of smaller ones.

That's a good feat, but it's worth noting that the palace was shaking to an extremely minor degree. To the point that it's very hard to notice if you aren't looking for it. I don't think it's even really comparable to Thor's feat of being bullrushed into the ground and a near mountain sized cloud of dust coming up.

As an axe, it can also cut through stuff pretty good, duh;

Ultimate Thor's pretty obvious answer to this is just to block it with his own Mjolnir(Thors #2, This is God Thor, it's more just to show it's something he would do). If MCU Thor decides to throw it, he's just disarming himself and allowing for a beatdown from Ultimate Thor.

Furthermore, I'll be interested to see what durability feats you want to scale Thanos to, because I think you could make an argument for Ultimate Thor being more durable and it just not cutting him at all.

There's also the problem of just being able to hit Ultimate Thor with it. This is an issue MCU Thor has had multiple times with piercing weapons like Thanos in Endgame or Hela at the end of Ragnarok.

Conclusion

I've still got more impressive feats and showings up my sleeve, but for now, I think it's clear that Ultimate Thor is above MCU physically and that's basically what this fight is going to come down to.

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defiant_will

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Nice!

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Great!

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eh

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TakenStew22

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#42 TakenStew22  Online

Good stuff.

That dust cloud doesn't really look mountain sized though. Plus they look pretty far away from the actual mountains...

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SupremeGeneration

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@takenstew22: even in spoilers I know you know better than to talk about stuff in the match before voting...

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TakenStew22

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#44 TakenStew22  Online

@takenstew22: even in spoilers I know you know better than to talk about stuff in the match before voting...

I'm not really good at voting anyway, especially when both sides make good points. Which is why I only said TAEP.

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andromeda101

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However, unlike that scan implies, Thor was not actually insane, but rather the actual God of Thunder re-incarnated as a human following Ragnarok. Loki warped Reality to make it seem to everyone that Thor was simply a mental patient, who thought they were reborn as Thor. Thor proved this false when after having his Super Suit taken away, he was given back his true god powers by Odin and easily defeated Loki/his army.

I always disliked this reveal, tbh. I found it far more interesting for him to be a human pretending to a deity, than an actual godlike being. It was a new take on the character, I believe.

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Windshieldwiper

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Kevd4wg

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@andromeda101 said:

However, unlike that scan implies, Thor was not actually insane, but rather the actual God of Thunder re-incarnated as a human following Ragnarok. Loki warped Reality to make it seem to everyone that Thor was simply a mental patient, who thought they were reborn as Thor. Thor proved this false when after having his Super Suit taken away, he was given back his true god powers by Odin and easily defeated Loki/his army.

I always disliked this reveal, tbh. I found it far more interesting for him to be a human pretending to a deity, than an actual godlike being. It was a new take on the character, I believe.

Really? I really liked what Millar and Hitch did with Thor in Ultimates 1 and 2. Thor being a human would've made Millar's Ultimates everything people say they are, but Thor becoming a god at the end of the Ultimates 2 to quote Veshark "was Millar's vindication of the Superhero."

Thor to me is easily the best part of the Ultimates.

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andromeda101

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@kevd4wg said:

Really? I really liked what Millar and Hitch did with Thor in Ultimates 1 and 2. Thor being a human would've made Millar's Ultimates everything people say they are, but Thor becoming a god at the end of the Ultimates 2 to quote Veshark "was Millar's vindication of the Superhero."

Thor to me is easily the best part of the Ultimates.

I find it hard to like it when right after, Hickman just threw everything in the trash cam with the arc of the Children of Tomorrow. Any storylines that could be explored with the revelation that Asgard and its gods were indeed real are over. Like, we never had an opportunity in the Ultimateverse to have a story like Walter Simonson's epic tales involving Asgard fighting against the hellish hordes of Surtur or anything like that. If they were going to waste this magical side of gods, then stick with Thor being a human. It would've been more interesting than what we got.

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Chimeroid

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Tag me for all of this shit., Buildhare really shooting high. Good luck.

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Kevd4wg

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@andromeda101: I guess it just comes down to preference because I think both Millar and Hickman did an excellent job with Asgard/Thor. It's not like Asgard or Mythical Thor was lost instantly it took a good 6 or 7 years, and Thor was never going to get an ongoing in the Ultimate Universe so losing out on potential stories didn't bother me.