Pshh, Yang will just be jealous when she sees how much better Clark pulls off the biker look...
No way, Clark looks like a try hard angsty biker whereas Yang looks like a badass biker babe.
Fair enough, but I think it is important to establish these as a strong baseline. After all, these are casual feats for Clark. They illustrate that Superman is packing a lot of strength even when holding back or going easy.
True perhaps but where Clark can cut loose, Yang has her Semblance to increase her damage output which will make things very painful on Clark even with his tanky durability.
It may seem inconsistent but for someone at street level this really isn't an especially low showing. Your average cruise missile will weigh around a ton and a half or more (according to Wikipedia, I'm no ballistics expert) and he's straight-up lifting it over his head.
That said of the four series that comprised the Truth arc, most of Supes' lowest showings all come from Batman/Superman which seemed to generally portray him at a lower level than the other three series (not without exception, mind you, but in general, particularly when dealing with Vandal Savage). Supes is more consistently shown to be stronger than this.
As for Stargirl's intervention I am pretty confident that it was only to steady his foot. They wouldn't have gone out of the way to point out that the patch of ice on the ground was what was giving him trouble if he wasn't able to lift the bus.
And even besides that you can see on the second panel that Stargirl detached the loop from his foot before he was finished pulling on the bus which wouldn't make sense if she was helping pull the bus herself.
That's what Wikipedia said for me too when I researched it. And struggling to lift a ton and a half is still a lackluster strength feat I would say. Certainly not in the realm of high street tiers like Luke Cage and Spider-Man.
You make a fair point that Batman/Superman was where Superman was portrayed as the weakest overall but it was still written by Greg Pak, who also wrote Action Comics and had been a Superman writer for several years at this point. It might not be the definitive measurement for Superman's level but nor can it be ruled out just because Superman performed poorly against Vandal Savage.
Maybe not but just prior to Superman lifting the school bus, he also struggled to stop an oil truck from falling off a bridge in Superman Annual #3, which was written by all the Superman writers btw.
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There's no Stargirl steadying his foot counter here, we can clearly see Superman unable to stop the momentum of the truck alone and over a dozen people had to help him stop the truck. Granted, an tank truck would weigh more than the bus did and I don't think Yang would have done better, but this is not something a high street tier would be incapable of stopping alone. Superman faced the same struggle lifting trucks and buses as if he were moving planets at this power level, so I still think Yang has a shot at hanging with Clark, especially due to morals as well.
If that was in fact a KO it was the world's shortest one, because Superman got back up almost immediately.
Here is a bit more context for reference.
Superman was pounded in that pile of rubble, Robo-Bats took a moment to fire his sonics, and then Superman immediately asked what he had done. There can't have been more than a few seconds between these panels. So I stand by it being a knock-down, not a KO.
OK then, with this context you've provided, I'll rescind my point about it being a KO for Clark.
Don't forget, in addition to his showings against Aquaman and the sand clone Superman, Clark also overpowered Black Manta
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Aquaman #1o
who himself has given Aquaman a serious fight when Aquaman was not holding back.
I'd say the reason why Black Manta tends to give Aquaman a good fight is mainly due to his gear and weapons being specifically designed to fight and counter Arthur's abilities. Plus, when Aquaman gets serious, he stomps Manta (Aquaman #2)
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Manta being able to give Aquaman a good fight hasn't stopped him getting beaten and stalemated by Deathstroke in the two New 52 fights they've had. I'll only post the second one where they stalemated though (Deathstroke #12)
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Hell Manta was surprised he was hanging with Superman for as long as he was like he didn't think he could last so long against Superman.
There is also Ukur who Clark himself claimed would give him a workout back when he still had all his powers.
Which would normally be impressive but the thing is we never saw Ukur and Clark fight when Superman was at full strength. Given that depowered Clark was able to go toe to toe with him, avoid some of his blows and recover from his hits in moments, Ukur might not be all he's cracked up to be.
He also took several blows from a machine that was draining Wonder Woman's powers.
And even broke that machine's grip using all his strength.
Breaking out of the machine's grip appeared to be more of an adrenaline fuelled moment but that was a solid showing.
And he survived being flung six miles out of Metropolis by Wrath, only getting KO'd by the hit.
Very impressive indeed. But Yang tanked being knocked into the air by Nora Valkyrie for about 100 seconds, which is enough time to reach terminal velocity and after impact she stood back up unharmed (8:37 & 10:15)
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So really Superman's performance against Aquaman isn't all that surprising. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that Aquaman doesn't have to hold back that much not to destroy Clark with his attacks.
I'm not trying to argue that Clark is close to being as strong or durable as Wonder Woman or Aquaman (he's not) but I think these many repeated good showings are proof that Supes has pretty clearly superior raw damage soak to Yang, and it will take an immense amount of damage to do enough to take Clark down.
Obviously and I know this isn't the first time a street leveller has fought a high tier character for a prolonged period of time. However, even if Clark does have superior damage soak to Yang (still need to see something that beats the concrete pillar feat) it doesn't always take Aquaman/Sand Superman level strength to overpower him. One of the overarching features of Truth was how often Superman struggled to defeat enemies he would have no trouble beating normally. Given what Yang's Semblance is, I remain confident that her damage output can reach the necessary levels to overpower Clark's damage soak.
No, I don't think it was a bullrush or a blitz either. If it was that would require close to lightspeed reflexes considering how fast Superman normally is. I did reference Clark getting bullrushed but that was in reference to a different attack and I was using it as a durability feat (he clearly did get bullrushed in that other scan).
That said I still think this is a really impressive speed feat. The sand Superman was chasing him, most likely accelerating. Clark still had the speed to flip around and tag him without being caught.
Exactly, hence my clarification on what you had posted. I'm glad we're understanding each other.
It was also very green in using his powers as Clark noted so it wasn't entirely like Clark was fighting an experienced and full powered version of himself.
Her propulsion is pretty comparable to Superman's leaping in terms of gaining height and distance, I agree, however it seems much less precise. I would like to see her using this technique to do anything close to landing on an airliner in mid-flight.
Well I don't have anything matching that particular leap of Clark's but she did propel herself hundreds of feet into the air whilst shooting a group of Grimm.
Besides Clark doesn't regularly use jet liner level leaps in fights, I certainly didn't see that kind of leaping when he fought the Shadow creature for instance. Since this is a fight and not an Olympic high jump, I think Yang's gauntlet leaps are comparable to Clark's leaping tall buildings in a single bound.
These blows are impressive and flashy, but Clark has tanked blows that created a blast of a similar radius without major problems before.
I'm afraid I don't find those feats nearly as impressive as Yang creating a shockwave all across a dance floor or creating a 50 foot shockwave from clashing with another fighter. The craters are not of a similar radius.
In fact, regular humans infected by Wrath were shown to be potentially strong enough to topple buildings and yet Clark grappled with a number of them.
On the other hand this is impressive.
This is an interesting advantage and will definitely change the course of the fight, however I am quite confident that in the long run it will be not enough to overcome Superman's advantages.
This is one of the crucial factors that decides whether Superman or Yang wins this fight. I on the other hand believe Yang's Semblance is sufficient to overpower Clark's damage soak.
First off I will point out that possibly her most impressive strike, the one that actually shattered the mech, clearly relied on her momentum as much as her strength, as she continuously spun around on the cord and then propelled herself forward with a shotgun blast into that blow.
That said... yeah, no doubt about it, Yang is one scary lady when she gets going. I would say Yang's damage output once she's heavily beefed up on Semblance beats out Clark's striking feats by a good amount.
The problem, and the important (and obvious) qualification to make with this ability is that Yang's increasing power is dependent on her taking damage as she goes on. Her Semblance isn't making her more durable or helping her heal so even as her power increases Clark can continue to do the same damage he has been doing with his attacks.
While Yang has the potential to do very large amounts of damage it still isn't on par with the kinds of incredibly powerful blows Clark has taken in the past. I would argue that Clark can obviously handle attacks of that caliber at least for a reasonable amount of time before going down based on what I have shown for him so far.
More importantly, Yang's inferior durability means that Clark's blows will be having more of an effect on her right from the get-go. By the time Yang has taken the damage to use Semblance and increase her power, she will by necessity have already taken a barrage of wall-smashing, concrete-busting, Black Manta-overpowering punches. How long can she stand up these kinds of attacks when she's already heavily damaged?
On the strike that shattered the mech, it was still the Semblance amp she had received which enabled her to shatter it into pieces. I can agree momentum did play a part in the blow's impact but that doesn't invalidate the physical amp Yang had received.
Indeed, and that is what I'm counting on for Yang taking the victory over Clark, her beefed up Semblance physicals are bound to turn the tide of the fight in her favour if Clark does have the advantage initially.
I expected this point to be brought up and I don't deny it, Yang's Semblance only increases her strength, not her durability. Consequently, that means if Yang's aura does not hold out against Clark's blows, she will deplete it and lose the fight. However, when Clark is taking Yang's much more powerful hits, I don't think his constitution can allow him to continue fighting at full strength after taking Yang's beefed up hits.
I understand where you're coming from with Clark's damage soak showings but your claim is a double edged sword. Truth Superman showed limits to his durability same as with Yang's. He was knocked down by Ukur, wounded by Deadshot's armour piercing rounds, KOed by a hit that sent him 6 miles for 2 hours and beaten by Vandal Savage. I'm not trying to downplay Truth Superman or his good showings, but I do think it is worth pointing out that Superman had limits to his durability and damage soak. Yang's Semblance is the best counter for taxing that durability and I would need sufficient proof that Superman can definitely hold out against Yang's Semblance powered blows.
Yang has tanked a hit that shattered a 4 foot concrete pillar so I would say that indicates she can hold out against Clark's blows. Clark kicking Parasite through a much smaller concrete pillar isn't as impressive as breaking a concrete pillar which was holding up a bridge/highway. Even if you can prove Clark is at that level, Yang's Semblance quickly made her capable of overpowering an opponent that had been ragdolling her previously. Durability might not be an issue if she presses her advantage and overpowers Clark. Also, Yang has recently been retrained by her father in hand to hand fighting and how to fight differently than she had been before.
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Full disclosure, Tai does bring up the drawbacks of Yang's Semblance that you've already mentioned and in some ways I'm giving you ammo to use against me. But it also shows Yang adapting her fighting style and putting her dad's lessons to use. Both Superman and Yang are brawlers essentially but Yang can brawl more skillfully than Clark and she's been trained not to just rely on brute force to win her fights anymore. She can employ grapples and throws in addition to blocking Clark's punches.
It is definitely an advantage to consider, since Clark is a close-ranged fighter, but none of these is really that impressive damage-wise considering the feats we've been throwing around so far. I think saying she "one-shotted" Neon Katt is a little bit of an overstatement, it doesn't look like she even got a KO with that attack. It was a fight in a tournament after all.
I think knocking a giant bird out of the sky is pretty impressive in the grand scheme of things. Plus Yang was able to take down a large group of Grimm with her gauntlets with rapid fire blasts.
As for Neon Katt, the context there is that during the Vytal Festival, the conditions for victory were either knocking opponents out of the ring, or depleting their aura level which was measured during the battle as shown here.
Yang didn't knock Neon Katt out of the ring, she depleted her aura level down so that she could be hurt or killed.
It's also important to note that this environment gives Clark some useful cover to protect from long-ranged attacks.
Clark has proven pretty definitively that he knows how to take advantage of his environment for both offense and defense. The myriad benches, tables and elevated ledges allow for the opportunity to use shielding and cover if Clark finds himself under fire from range (in addition to serving as potential melee options).
It might provide Clark with temporary cover but Yang's shotgun blasts can either destroy that cover or force Clark out from it bringing the fight into melee range where the outcome will be decided as we've both agreed.
Points of Consideration
Clark's durability can keep him in a brawl with Yang at her regular levels but that won't last as the fight progresses. He might be able to shield himself with the environment temporarily but it will only be a momentary respite and won't give him any higher chance or opportunity of defeating Yang. Inevitably the fight will become a melee battle as that is where both our characters excel at fighting. Clark's durability might be tough for Yang to crack at her regular levels but she is not far behind in terms of her Aura's durability based on the concrete pillar feat which she remained conscious from and able to continue fighting. Clark is physically stronger and can use the environment more effectively but Yang has the superior fighting skill which will enable her to block some of Clark's hits and outskill his simplistic brawling tactics. As the fight drags on, Yang's Semblance will kick into action buffing her damage output which is where the result of the battle will be decided. Yang will be able to inflict more damage on Clark than she has taken from him and that will inflict serious damage on Clark despite his damage soaking. Yang has what it takes to hang with Clark anyway but she need only last long enough to get powered up and dish out some powerful hits to knock Clark out in a tough battle.
The last thing Clark sees before losing consciousness.
Your move Amendment, looking forward to your reply.
No way, Clark looks like a try hard angsty biker whereas Yang looks like a badass biker babe.
Oh c'mon now, does this look like the face of a try hard to you?
Action Comics #41
True perhaps but where Clark can cut loose, Yang has her Semblance to increase her damage output which will make things very painful on Clark even with his tanky durability.
Yes I certainly don't deny that Yang will not be starting from her full potential either.
That's what Wikipedia said for me too when I researched it. And struggling to lift a ton and a half is still a lackluster strength feat I would say. Certainly not in the realm of high street tiers like Luke Cage and Spider-Man.
You make a fair point that Batman/Superman was where Superman was portrayed as the weakest overall but it was still written by Greg Pak, who also wrote Action Comics and had been a Superman writer for several years at this point. It might not be the definitive measurement for Superman's level but nor can it be ruled out just because Superman performed poorly against Vandal Savage.
Maybe not but just prior to Superman lifting the school bus, he also struggled to stop an oil truck from falling off a bridge in Superman Annual #3, which was written by all the Superman writers btw.
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There's no Stargirl steadying his foot counter here, we can clearly see Superman unable to stop the momentum of the truck alone and over a dozen people had to help him stop the truck. Granted, an tank truck would weigh more than the bus did and I don't think Yang would have done better, but this is not something a high street tier would be incapable of stopping alone. Superman faced the same struggle lifting trucks and buses as if he were moving planets at this power level, so I still think Yang has a shot at hanging with Clark, especially due to morals as well.
Damn you and your Superman expertise; I never even read Superman Annual 3 lol. Have to say I love the art style though.
Anyway as you mentioned it is important to note that this truck almost certainly weighs more than the school bus so I don't think it necessarily contradicts that feat. Remember, a ton and a half... that's like lifting a small car over his head. I agree that it's something that other street levelers with super strength like Luke Cage or Spiderman could do too but I still think it is unreasonable to suggest that it is an unimpressive feat as far as raw lifting strength goes. And it doesn't change the fact that Clark has shown better striking power than raw lifting strength. Either way I haven't seen strength feats on this level from Yang.
OK then, with this context you've provided, I'll rescind my point about it being a KO for Clark.
Danke schoen.
I'd say the reason why Black Manta tends to give Aquaman a good fight is mainly due to his gear and weapons being specifically designed to fight and counter Arthur's abilities. Plus, when Aquaman gets serious, he stomps Manta (Aquaman #2)
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Manta being able to give Aquaman a good fight hasn't stopped him getting beaten and stalemated by Deathstroke in the two New 52 fights they've had. I'll only post the second one where they stalemated though (Deathstroke #12)
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Hell Manta was surprised he was hanging with Superman for as long as he was like he didn't think he could last so long against Superman.
I don't disagree with you necessarily, and as I mentioned before and did my best to emphasize Clark is not on Aquaman's level. If Black Manta were physically Arthur's complete equal then there's no way Clark could hold his own. However Manta does have the physicals to contend with Aquaman in general, and it is undeniable that he has tanked attacks from and hurt Arthur in the past. Don't forget that Clark himself drew blood from Arthur so I don't think what I'm saying is a stretch.
Batman/Superman #24
And let's be honest here. Deathstroke is skilled enough to be a team buster and constantly uses quick thinking and skill to fight opponents above his paygrade. It is clear from the scans you posted that Manta had the physical advantage in their fight; Deathstroke never even drew blood. He simply contended through superior skill which isn't really applicable to the showdown of pure strength between Clark and Manta.
Manta himself couldn't have had much of a way to gauge Clark's strength in the first place so his personal thoughts don't mean much about that matchup. He was probably just impressed because Clark still has the title of Superman; lots of people said similar things in reference to Truth Clark.
Which would normally be impressive but the thing is we never saw Ukur and Clark fight when Superman was at full strength. Given that depowered Clark was able to go toe to toe with him, avoid some of his blows and recover from his hits in moments, Ukur might not be all he's cracked up to be.
Maybe not, but Clark said what he said based on what he gleaned from his X-ray vision. Even the mere fact that Clark claimed he probably couldn't down Ukur with one punch makes the fact that depowered Clark could contend with him impressive, considering how hard Superman hits at normal strength. It's hard to deny that regular Superman wouldn't (and wouldn't expect to) get a workout from fighting Yang.
Breaking out of the machine's grip appeared to be more of an adrenaline fuelled moment but that was a solid showing.
Okay, call it an "adrenaline-fueled" moment, of course it took every ounce of his strength, but either way it's Clark using his raw strength to overpower the grip of something nearly on Diana's level so it's another of Clark's good performances against strength well above Yang's.
Very impressive indeed. But Yang tanked being knocked into the air by Nora Valkyrie for about 100 seconds, which is enough time to reach terminal velocity and after impact she stood back up unharmed (8:37 & 10:15)
I don't think those are particularly comparable. Clark has fallen from flight altitudes before without any difficulty whatsoever.
Superman/Wonder Woman #22
Not to mention that Yang being in the air for so long is practically a Loony Tunes moment and obviously meant to be a gag at least on some level. You have to consider the fact that it is used as a brick joke after the fight is already over. I would argue that that feat should at least be taken with a grain of salt for that reason- that one blow that knocked Yang through the roof absolutely blows every other attack from that whole fight out of the water by a wide margin if taken completely at face value.
So really Superman's performance against Aquaman isn't all that surprising. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that Aquaman doesn't have to hold back that much not to destroy Clark with his attacks.
I'm not trying to argue that Clark is close to being as strong or durable as Wonder Woman or Aquaman (he's not) but I think these many repeated good showings are proof that Supes has pretty clearly superior raw damage soak to Yang, and it will take an immense amount of damage to do enough to take Clark down.
Obviously and I know this isn't the first time a street leveller has fought a high tier character for a prolonged period of time. However, even if Clark does have superior damage soak to Yang (still need to see something that beats the concrete pillar feat)
...This isn't enough for you?
Superman #46
How about this?
Action Comics #42
Neither of these did anything more than wind him. I'm failing to understand how Clark hasn't demonstrated better damage soak than being knocked through a few concrete pillars.
it doesn't always take Aquaman/Sand Superman level strength to overpower him. One of the overarching features of Truth was how often Superman struggled to defeat enemies he would have no trouble beating normally. Given what Yang's Semblance is, I remain confident that her damage output can reach the necessary levels to overpower Clark's damage soak.
To overpower him, maybe not. But I argue it has been shown pretty consistently that it takes more than what Yang is packing to put him down for the count given his performances against strong opponents. That is of course the major point of contention for this debate. :P
Exactly, hence my clarification on what you had posted. I'm glad we're understanding each other.
It was also very green in using his powers as Clark noted so it wasn't entirely like Clark was fighting an experienced and full powered version of himself.
You're not wrong about that but that doesn't by any means invalidate the sand Superman from being a Superman-level opponent. I mean hell even Clark himself when he was totally green himself could stop trains and break Green Lantern constructs, no doubt he could casually replicate Yang's best feats. And there's no way this thing has as little control over its powers as Clark did back then because it's capable of using the Solar Flare which Clark had only just figured out how to use.
Superman #47
Well I don't have anything matching that particular leap of Clark's but she did propel herself hundreds of feet into the air whilst shooting a group of Grimm.
Besides Clark doesn't regularly use jet liner level leaps in fights, I certainly didn't see that kind of leaping when he fought the Shadow creature for instance. Since this is a fight and not an Olympic high jump, I think Yang's gauntlet leaps are comparable to Clark's leaping tall buildings in a single bound.
Lol yes, I conceded in the last counter that Yang's propulsion is comparable to Clark's leaping altitude-wise. My point was about precision so I stand by Clark's ability being more practical on the grounds that he is more accurate at using it.
I do contend Clark would stomp Yang in the Olympic high jump though. So suck on that.
I'm afraid I don't find those feats nearly as impressive as Yang creating a shockwave all across a dance floor or creating a 50 foot shockwave from clashing with another fighter. The craters are not of a similar radius.
I don't really agree given that the infected cop's blow smashed the asphalt hard enough to kick up dirt all along the road. Even still that's not the only example of Clark taking an attack with a big radius. I mean hell just look at the failed Solar Flare he tanked from sand Superman that I just posted above.
Or this handy-dandy scan.
Superman Annual #3 ( what a helpful resource :3 )
On the other hand this is impressive.
Agreed.
On the strike that shattered the mech, it was still the Semblance amp she had received which enabled her to shatter it into pieces. I can agree momentum did play a part in the blow's impact but that doesn't invalidate the physical amp Yang had received.
No, I don't think it invalidates Yang's physical amp. What I do think it does is contextualize it, because Yang had to build up momentum and launch herself in order to put out a strike of that magnitude. In other words, once Yang becomes amped with semblance it does not mean every blow she is putting out will be on this level.
I expected this point to be brought up and I don't deny it, Yang's Semblance only increases her strength, not her durability. Consequently, that means if Yang's aura does not hold out against Clark's blows, she will deplete it and lose the fight. However, when Clark is taking Yang's much more powerful hits, I don't think his constitution can allow him to continue fighting at full strength after taking Yang's beefed up hits.
I understand where you're coming from with Clark's damage soak showings but your claim is a double edged sword. Truth Superman showed limits to his durability same as with Yang's. He was knocked down by Ukur, wounded by Deadshot's armour piercing rounds, KOed by a hit that sent him 6 miles for 2 hours and beaten by Vandal Savage. I'm not trying to downplay Truth Superman or his good showings, but I do think it is worth pointing out that Superman had limits to his durability and damage soak. Yang's Semblance is the best counter for taxing that durability and I would need sufficient proof that Superman can definitely hold out against Yang's Semblance powered blows.
It's true, the whole focal point of Truth was Clark grappling with his newly-placed limits. And his durability has been pressed before. I am willing to accept that it will be pressed in this fight as well, just not until Yang starts pulling out the stops.
I guess I would summarize my point of Clark holding out against Yang's attacks like this.
A. To address Yang's weaker blows at the start of the fight I would identify Clark's less impressive showings like those against Ukur or a battering ram. Enough to hurt him and piss him off, but even after sustained damage Clark proved it wasn't making him weaker. Even with blows that are a good deal stronger than Yang's regular blows, like the explosion of a gas truck or attacks from Wrath's monsters, Clark was able to put up a long and sustained fight afterward. (Let's contextualize Clark's stand against the police, when he got battering rammed in the face, for instance. At the time he had just gotten out from the fight with the gigantic shadow monster and even mentioned how tired he was. And even still he took the beating from the battering ram and was still hitting incredibly hard.)
B. To address Yang's more powerful blows I would point to Clark's higher showings (sand Superman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman machine). No, Clark did not last super long against any of those but by contrast, any one of those should have striking power that absolutely dwarfs Yang's by a huge margin. And yet none of those were able to keep him from fighting back even with multiple blows. The best any of the three did against him was the Wonder Woman machine which didn't KO him until at least the fourth punch to his face, and this was immediately after Clark had fought Atomic Skull and others. Because Clark was able to sustain multiple hits from these opponents that were putting out much more damage than Yang can I think it is more than reasonable to thus say that Clark can withstand, comparably, significantly more high-end damage from Yang before being KO'd which is consistent with the incredible level of stamina and endurance he has shown against weaker opponents.
Yang has tanked a hit that shattered a 4 foot concrete pillar so I would say that indicates she can hold out against Clark's blows. Clark kicking Parasite through a much smaller concrete pillar isn't as impressive as breaking a concrete pillar which was holding up a bridge/highway. Even if you can prove Clark is at that level, Yang's Semblance quickly made her capable of overpowering an opponent that had been ragdolling her previously. Durability might not be an issue if she presses her advantage and overpowers Clark.
Alright alright alright. I am starting to get concerned that my assertions about Clark's strength are coming off as unsupported. Let me level with ya'll here for a sec.
So here's the thing. Clark's showings are not really of the same variety as Yang's and his fights are a lot less flashy. I am hard pressed to find feats that are directly comparable with Yang's striking power AoE wise simply because Clark does not do as much property damage in his fights and has fewer fights to use for reference. But I feel very strongly that Clark has demonstrated striking power on par with Yang's and I would like to explain that. This is also the reason I am fighting hard on the matter of Black Manta, Ukur and others. I am willing to concede that on paper Yang's striking feats look better.
But look a little closer. Let me start with the punch he threw against Binghamton.
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Action Comics #42, #43
20 feet through the air with one punch. That's the same kind of distance RWBY characters are knocking each other around with using their attacks. And Clark clearly demonstrates that this is a casual level of power for him. He compares Binghamton to paper. He was admittedly angered but he clearly says he didn't think he hit him that hard. He's still trying to hold back his strength putting out a blow like this because he thought that Binghamton was human.
I understand why you compared Clark kicking Parasite through a pillar to Yang getting punched through one, that's because they are visually comparable and easy to analyze. I didn't really mean to imply that Clark's feats against Parasite are on par with Yang's best durability feats though I admit that the reason I included them at all is because of the neat visual comparison.
Clark's best feats are mostly related to scaling and I understand that you probably have hesitancy to legitimize that. But unless you are willing to make the claim that the best Clark can honestly do is kick someone through a small pillar you have to concede that there is some validity to this. Clark's blows have hurt people that by all means should have superior durability to Yang. Which is why I stand by Clark being able to lay a beating on Yang, at least over the course of a fight.
Take Black Manta for instance. No he does not have Aquaman's level of durability, but it is straight up undeniable that he can take more than one blow from Arthur without being defeated. I showed it in my scans in my last counter. You yourself showed it in your scans of Manta being stomped by Aquaman. We know that Manta can at least stand up to a few blows from Arthur. And we also know that Clark is capable of beating Manta to the point of incap with his strikes.
Superman/Wonder Woman #19
So it just makes sense that by doing cumulative damage through sustained blows, Clark can do the kind of damage Aquaman can do with a few of his own. It's not an outlier. It's the explanation for how Clark keeps hurting high level people. Atomic Skull (while seriously lacking in feats in New 52) is pretty much always portrayed as a high tier and yet Clark did damage by punching him. Ukur can allegedly take more than one punch from powered Superman; depowered Clark cannot beat him. However repeated blows from Truth Clark are enough to draw blood and knock him down. With a number of blows Clark can do very heavy damage. This much is consistent. There's no way this kind of damage won't be enough to put the hurt on Yang. Based on what Clark has shown he can do damage-wise I would say it was absurd to suggest that Clark could not, for instance, punch someone through a four-foot concrete pillar.
I understand that this is icky-sounding powerscaling but if we are going to be honest about Clark's striking power we have to address this. If he can beat down people that durable than his striking power simply must be comparable to Yang's.
Okay... rant over, lol. There's no doubt in my mind that you won't totally agree with me on all of this but I felt I had to at least clarify my position for the sake of the voters if nothing else. I don't mean to suggest that you are being disingenuous about Clark either, just that I may not be being clear enough.
So moving on.
Also, Yang has recently been retrained by her father in hand to hand fighting and how to fight differently than she had been before.
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Full disclosure, Tai does bring up the drawbacks of Yang's Semblance that you've already mentioned and in some ways I'm giving you ammo to use against me. But it also shows Yang adapting her fighting style and putting her dad's lessons to use. Both Superman and Yang are brawlers essentially but Yang can brawl more skillfully than Clark and she's been trained not to just rely on brute force to win her fights anymore. She can employ grapples and throws in addition to blocking Clark's punches.
Just an aside, I think your timestamps in the videos you've been posting have been off, I've had to go back and find examples of what you've been talking about. NBD but it was a little confusing at first.
Anyway yeah, I guess you set yourself up for this but I agree with Yang's papa on this one, relying on her semblance doesn't make her invincible. She does have skill on her side though.
I can't deny that Truth Supes is mainly a brawler (lol he did it for money) but even then he has good battle sense. He grappled with sand Supes, realizing he was outmatched in strength, and showed no hesitation blocking attacks from opponents like Crow.
Superman #45
Often he did not need to do much more than throw punches because even in Truth his opponents were usually weaker than him, but I think he is demonstrably capable of more if necessary.
Not to mention, as you no doubt can agree with, Clark has shown himself capable of keeping up with highly skilled opponents in the past back when he still had his powers. He's matched Zod in combat before; hell he fought Zod and Faora at the same time.
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Superman/Wonder Woman #5
Also, damn, I think that arm would make Bucky jealous.
I think knocking a giant bird out of the sky is pretty impressive in the grand scheme of things. Plus Yang was able to take down a large group of Grimm with her gauntlets with rapid fire blasts.
I think it's impressive in terms of range but I would like to see something for those guys that would prove that long ranged blasts can do more than irritate Clark.
As for Neon Katt, the context there is that during the Vytal Festival, the conditions for victory were either knocking opponents out of the ring, or depleting their aura level which was measured during the battle as shown here.
Yang didn't knock Neon Katt out of the ring, she depleted her aura level down so that she could be hurt or killed.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but it can't really have been a one-shot in that case, could it? Considering Neon was apparently already using up aura during the fight.
It might provide Clark with temporary cover but Yang's shotgun blasts can either destroy that cover or force Clark out from it bringing the fight into melee range where the outcome will be decided as we've both agreed.
I don't think Clark would use cover much more than to provide temporary protection before closing in with melee anyway, as he's done in the past, so I can agree with you on that.
Points of Consideration
Clark is less flashy than Yang but he is also much less volatile. He has proven that he can withstand significant amounts of damage and continue to fight and he has also proven that with time he can output more damage than Yang has withstood before. The environment gives him enough of an advantage to properly counter attacks from a range and give him an edge in close quarters, and while Yang's skill advantage is nice Clark has shown in the past that he can handle a skilled opponent. Both Yang and Clark will deliver myriad blows and will definitely both be hurting by the end of it but only one of the two of them has proven that they have what it takes to keep fighting through massive amounts of damage.
As such, Yang is not an unmanageable opponent for Clark and by outlasting and outpacing her, he will prove himself too much for her in the end.
Except Yang of course. She sucks. (Action Comics #43)
I have to say, this is the most fun I've had in a debate in a long time, and you're really making me work hard. You're doing a great job and I'm looking forward to your closer.
@amendment50: Damn I see some of my video timestamps aren't working properly. The timestamp for RWBY Volume 4, Chapter 9 was meant to be 1:26-6:00. I'll just quote the text ad vertabim for my final post so readers can see my point without needing to watch the video.
I'm glad you've been enjoying our debate, this has been a lot of fun for me too. You've put up a strong case for Truth Superman and made it much tougher on me than I thought which was a pleasant surprise.
Lastly, do you have any preference on finishing this CAV by Sunday? It's just that if I post my conclusion on Friday and you can reply to it by Saturday, we can ask for it to be advertised for votes on The Daily Debater as well. Your call though, you might be busy on the weekend.
@lvenger: That's fine if you need the time. I do agree that it would be nice to get advertised for votes in Daily Debater though. Although this CaV did get mentioned in the thread last time.
Oh c'mon now, does this look like the face of a try hard to you?
Pfft yeah it does. And Yang's golden locks>Clark's silly skinhead.
Damn you and your Superman expertise; I never even read Superman Annual 3 lol. Have to say I love the art style though.
Anyway as you mentioned it is important to note that this truck almost certainly weighs more than the school bus so I don't think it necessarily contradicts that feat. Remember, a ton and a half... that's like lifting a small car over his head. I agree that it's something that other street levelers with super strength like Luke Cage or Spiderman could do too but I still think it is unreasonable to suggest that it is an unimpressive feat as far as raw lifting strength goes. And it doesn't change the fact that Clark has shown better striking power than raw lifting strength. Either way I haven't seen strength feats on this level from Yang.
I'm actually surprised I remembered what happened in Superman Annual #3 personally, I've been trying to block the memory of Truth out of my mind but unfortunately this debate brought all those memories back. Luckily I got a good use out of it though. I agree the truck weighing more than the school bus was worth mentioning but it still shows Superman visibly struggling to perform a feat of strength. Struggle was a big part of the Truth & Savage Dawn story arc after all, in many of the scans you've shown, Superman had to put in blood, sweat and tears just to beat foes he would have shrugged off before. It's not unimpressive but it does show clear strain and fatigue on Superman's part which could be detrimental when fighting Yang. I've admitted Yang doesn't have strength feats on par with Clark's but she excels at striking strength like Clark.
I don't disagree with you necessarily, and as I mentioned before and did my best to emphasize Clark is not on Aquaman's level. If Black Manta were physically Arthur's complete equal then there's no way Clark could hold his own. However Manta does have the physicals to contend with Aquaman in general, and it is undeniable that he has tanked attacks from and hurt Arthur in the past. Don't forget that Clark himself drew blood from Arthur so I don't think what I'm saying is a stretch.
Exactly, it's Manta's planning and choice of weaponry and gadgets that gives him the ability to fight Aquaman toe to toe. Manta has tanked attacks from Arthur but by that same token Aquaman has demonstrated the ability to wreck Manta with his fists or trident. I do think it's a stretch for Clark to draw blood from Aquaman though, Arthur is so much stronger than Clark and Yang that Clark drawing blood from him felt off. Personally I consider Truth Superman to be below the likes of Luke Cage and Spider-Man physically and I wouldn't dream of either of them being able to draw blood from Arthur.
And let's be honest here. Deathstroke is skilled enough to be a team buster and constantly uses quick thinking and skill to fight opponents above his paygrade. It is clear from the scans you posted that Manta had the physical advantage in their fight; Deathstroke never even drew blood. He simply contended through superior skill which isn't really applicable to the showdown of pure strength between Clark and Manta.
Deathstroke contending through superior skill and tactics is granted but it is actually applicable to Manta. Manta is a decent fighter, he can kill a guard with just a coin. So Deathstroke wasn't just outfighting a physically superior foe, he was outfighting a skilled opponent who was initially fighting in his turf. Getting back on topic, the relation to Clark is that not only is he fighting a foe who physically stacks up to him, but knows how to fight better too.
Manta himself couldn't have had much of a way to gauge Clark's strength in the first place so his personal thoughts don't mean much about that matchup. He was probably just impressed because Clark still has the title of Superman; lots of people said similar things in reference to Truth Clark.
I think you're forgetting that essentially most of the world not only knew Superman was Clark Kent but that he had also lost most of his powers. These are just 2 examples of Superman's depowered state being public knowledge.
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If the general public is aware of it, a member of a black ops team of supervillains should be obviously aware of his status too. The point of this discussion is how impressive Manta is to understand how impressive it was for Clark to beat him. I see your point that Manta has some good showings against Aquaman but on the other hand we don't know the full extent of his durability when facing other foes.
Maybe not, but Clark said what he said based on what he gleaned from his X-ray vision. Even the mere fact that Clark claimed he probably couldn't down Ukur with one punch makes the fact that depowered Clark could contend with him impressive, considering how hard Superman hits at normal strength. It's hard to deny that regular Superman wouldn't (and wouldn't expect to) get a workout from fighting Yang.
Obviously regular Superman wouldn't break a sweat on Yang but that's not who we're discussing here. Based on Ukur's feats, if he cannot KO a depowered Superman and takes damage from his blows, then he is not Superman level. Otherwise Superman wouldn't be depowered if he was able to take on a foe he thought he would have trouble with at full strength. And that clearly isn't the case. So brawling with Ukur is not so impressive when taken into full consideration.
Okay, call it an "adrenaline-fueled" moment, of course it took every ounce of his strength, but either way it's Clark using his raw strength to overpower the grip of something nearly on Diana's level so it's another of Clark's good performances against strength well above Yang's.
We don't know for certain how much of Diana's energy it had taken. An unquantifiable amount of Diana's power was in that machine and Diana didn't appear any weaker after she was free. She was able to pull dozens of criminals in one hand and Clark, Parasite and Firestorm in the other whilst escaping from an underwater base so she must not have lost all her energy to that power draining machine.
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I don't think those are particularly comparable. Clark has fallen from flight altitudes before without any difficulty whatsoever.
Not to mention that Yang being in the air for so long is practically a Loony Tunes moment and obviously meant to be a gag at least on some level. You have to consider the fact that it is used as a brick joke after the fight is already over. I would argue that that feat should at least be taken with a grain of salt for that reason- that one blow that knocked Yang through the roof absolutely blows every other attack from that whole fight out of the water by a wide margin if taken completely at face value.
Clark's fall from the helicopter doesn't seem particularly comparable to Yang being knocked into the sky and back into Beacon again. But you're right to bring up the comedic aspect, it was basically a punchline of the food fight so that does lessen its validity I will admit. It is a feat for Yang though, hence why I brought it up since she doesn't have a wealth of feats to draw upon.
...This isn't enough for you?
Superman #46
How about this?
Action Comics #42
Neither of these did anything more than wind him. I'm failing to understand how Clark hasn't demonstrated better damage soak than being knocked through a few concrete pillars.
Tanking Sand Superman's punch is a definite outlier for Truth Superman. It would be equally unfair if I used Vandal Savage beating the snot out of Truth Superman, who by feats is weaker than Yang.
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Both of these events happened yet which one is the more accurate representation? The feat where Superman survives a hit from a being with over three quarters of his original power? Or the fight where he gets beaten up by a peak human-low level superhuman? You have to remember consistency is a factor in this debate too, and it has to be said Truth Superman wasn't consistently surviving hits from high tiers.
As for the explosion scan, Clark is riding out the explosion from a distance, it's not as if Clark is tanking the force of the explosion point blank.
To overpower him, maybe not. But I argue it has been shown pretty consistently that it takes more than what Yang is packing to put him down for the count given his performances against strong opponents. That is of course the major point of contention for this debate. :P
In hindsight I should have saved my comparison point for here. Anyway, I wager it doesn't take more than what Yang is consistently capable of dishing out to take Superman out based on what I know of this version of the character.
You're not wrong about that but that doesn't by any means invalidate the sand Superman from being a Superman-level opponent. I mean hell even Clark himself when he was totally green himself could stop trains and break Green Lantern constructs, no doubt he could casually replicate Yang's best feats. And there's no way this thing has as little control over its powers as Clark did back then because it's capable of using the Solar Flare which Clark had only just figured out how to use.
Yes but that was a green New 52 Superman who hadn't lost most of his power to be fair and behaved a lot rougher and more aggressively. Also, the reason why the Sand Superman was using the Solar Flare was because that was how the Quarmers had absorbed Superman's power in the first place. It's incorrect to say Clark had only just figured out how to use it, up until losing his powers completely, I can count about 5 times Superman had used the Solar Flare before losing his powers. Plus he was training to use it with the Justice League in Superman #40.
Lol yes, I conceded in the last counter that Yang's propulsion is comparable to Clark's leaping altitude-wise. My point was about precision so I stand by Clark's ability being more practical on the grounds that he is more accurate at using it.
I do contend Clark would stomp Yang in the Olympic high jump though. So suck on that.
I think I'm starting to understand where you're coming from, do you mean the angle and timing needed to jump onto a moving jet liner mid-flight makes it more precise than what Yang has done?
Clark would embarrass Yang in the Olympic high jump, point conceded. Yang beats him in shot put though.
I don't really agree given that the infected cop's blow smashed the asphalt hard enough to kick up dirt all along the road. Even still that's not the only example of Clark taking an attack with a big radius. I mean hell just look at the failed Solar Flare he tanked from sand Superman that I just posted above.
Or this handy-dandy scan.
Since when was kicking up dirt a qualified of the force of a punch? It's not as if the dirt and air pressure caused any big destruction in One Punch Man style. The Solar Flare from Sand Superman is impressive, although it was not a full powered Solar Flare since a full powered solar flare is supposed to incinerate everything in a quarter mile radius and the radius on the failed Solar Flare looked to be about 50-100 foot radius max.
I see you've co-opted my reference against me, good job. He looks banged up from the collateral effects of that blast though.
No, I don't think it invalidates Yang's physical amp. What I do think it does is contextualize it, because Yang had to build up momentum and launch herself in order to put out a strike of that magnitude. In other words, once Yang becomes amped with semblance it does not mean every blow she is putting out will be on this level.
With Yang's gauntlets being able to propel her rapidly into the air and make her move even quicker, it's a possibility she can build up that momentum to use on Clark. And I really cannot see him shrugging off that kind of blow at all. Still, even if you're correct, Yang can still lay a barrage of blows on Clark like she did against Junior and Mercury Black which successfully overpowered them. Clark would still be taking heavy damage from these attacks.
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He's a much less skilled fighter than Mercury (he was able to contend with Pyrrha Nikos who in turn had just soloed a team of 4 Huntsmen students by herself in a training battle) so he'd struggle to hit her too.
It's true, the whole focal point of Truth was Clark grappling with his newly-placed limits. And his durability has been pressed before. I am willing to accept that it will be pressed in this fight as well, just not until Yang starts pulling out the stops.
I guess I would summarize my point of Clark holding out against Yang's attacks like this.
A. To address Yang's weaker blows at the start of the fight I would identify Clark's less impressive showings like those against Ukur or a battering ram. Enough to hurt him and piss him off, but even after sustained damage Clark proved it wasn't making him weaker. Even with blows that are a good deal stronger than Yang's regular blows, like the explosion of a gas truck or attacks from Wrath's monsters, Clark was able to put up a long and sustained fight afterward. (Let's contextualize Clark's stand against the police, when he got battering rammed in the face, for instance. At the time he had just gotten out from the fight with the gigantic shadow monster and even mentioned how tired he was. And even still he took the beating from the battering ram and was still hitting incredibly hard.)
B. To address Yang's more powerful blows I would point to Clark's higher showings (sand Superman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman machine). No, Clark did not last super long against any of those but by contrast, any one of those should have striking power that absolutely dwarfs Yang's by a huge margin. And yet none of those were able to keep him from fighting back even with multiple blows. The best any of the three did against him was the Wonder Woman machine which didn't KO him until at least the fourth punch to his face, and this was immediately after Clark had fought Atomic Skull and others. Because Clark was able to sustain multiple hits from these opponents that were putting out much more damage than Yang can I think it is more than reasonable to thus say that Clark can withstand, comparably, significantly more high-end damage from Yang before being KO'd which is consistent with the incredible level of stamina and endurance he has shown against weaker opponents.
A) Even Yang's regular blows could ragdoll cars, one shot large Grimm and shatter a wall like it was paper mache. Those should be enough to cause Clark pain despite the things he has tanked. I checked the context of Clark's stand against the police just for my own recollection, not to doubt your word and you were right of course, Clark was tired from fighting the shadow monster already yet he could still fight back. But Yang has also fought Grimm for an entire day in RWBY Volume 2, Chapters 9-10 with barely any sleep and was still able to help in the fight against a Grimm invasion in Chapters 11-12 (that gif of Yang being knocked out of the sky whilst blasting Grimm is of a sleep deprived Yang)
B) Whilst the higher showings Truth Superman has displayed cannot be discounted, they are not above question either. Of course Clark withstanding a single blow from someone on Aquaman or Sand Superman's level is undoubtedly impressive, more often than not, it does not take this kind of force to weaken or overpower Superman. He can lose blood can be drawn from high tech police bats, high calibre armour piercing bullets can pierce his skin and low level superhumans can damage him. It's certainly not all rose petals for Superman at this point, he was battered and bruised to hell and back and there was rarely a point in the story where something didn't cause him pain. Yang's Semblance enables her to take the damage she's received and inflict it back on her foes twice as hard. When Yang's Semblance activates, the tide of battle tends to turn against her opponents. I'm still not convinced Clark has a strong chance of withstanding Yang's high end attacks before he's KOed, his durability and damage soak can only go so far next to Yang's damage output.
So here's the thing. Clark's showings are not really of the same variety as Yang's and his fights are a lot less flashy. I am hard pressed to find feats that are directly comparable with Yang's striking power AoE wise simply because Clark does not do as much property damage in his fights and has fewer fights to use for reference. But I feel very strongly that Clark has demonstrated striking power on par with Yang's and I would like to explain that. This is also the reason I am fighting hard on the matter of Black Manta, Ukur and others. I am willing to concede that on paper Yang's striking feats look better.
The fights in RWBY and the fights during Truth are of a different variety for sure. You have defended your side well though, and at several points you have shown why Clark's striking power is a match for Yang's regular blows. It's just that the Semblance changes the debate on physicals. Yang's feats in that regard don't just look better, they do better damage too IMO.
But look a little closer. Let me start with the punch he threw against Binghamton.
20 feet through the air with one punch. That's the same kind of distance RWBY characters are knocking each other around with using their attacks. And Clark clearly demonstrates that this is a casual level of power for him. He compares Binghamton to paper. He was admittedly angered but he clearly says he didn't think he hit him that hard. He's still trying to hold back his strength putting out a blow like this because he thought that Binghamton was human.
Again a good point, sending someone 20 feet casually is a RWBY equivalent showing for most characters. I do have to note Yang is stronger than many of them due to her Semblance but it's still a good point for what a holding back Superman can casually dish out.
I understand why you compared Clark kicking Parasite through a pillar to Yang getting punched through one, that's because they are visually comparable and easy to analyze. I didn't really mean to imply that Clark's feats against Parasite are on par with Yang's best durability feats though I admit that the reason I included them at all is because of the neat visual comparison.
I did feel I needed to distinguish the differences between those two examples since they involved a similar chain of events but I didn't intend to make a direct correlation between Yang's pillar feat and Clark's feats against Parasite. The visual comparison was what drew me to them though perhaps I should have chosen to compare Yang's best with Clark's best.
Clark's best feats are mostly related to scaling and I understand that you probably have hesitancy to legitimize that. But unless you are willing to make the claim that the best Clark can honestly do is kick someone through a small pillar you have to concede that there is some validity to this. Clark's blows have hurt people that by all means should have superior durability to Yang. Which is why I stand by Clark being able to lay a beating on Yang, at least over the course of a fight.
I do I'm afraid, scaling is not something I'm a big fan of unless there is good enough grounds to justify it. Aren't Clark's feats of busting through steel doors and concrete walls examples of better striking power anyway by feat measurement? Regardless, Clark may have hurt some tough people but I don't believe Clark can KO Yang before she activates her Semblance which is the crux of this fight.
Take Black Manta for instance. No he does not have Aquaman's level of durability, but it is straight up undeniable that he can take more than one blow from Arthur without being defeated. I showed it in my scans in my last counter. You yourself showed it in your scans of Manta being stomped by Aquaman. We know that Manta can at least stand up to a few blows from Arthur. And we also know that Clark is capable of beating Manta to the point of incap with his strikes.
A few blows from a holding back Aquaman though to be fair. Also, we can't determine the extent of his durability outside of his fight with Superman alone. Logically, if Manta loses to Truth Superman, he has no business fighting the vastly more powerful Aquaman. Yet that won't change Manta taking multiple blows from a full powered Aquaman in future comics.
So it just makes sense that by doing cumulative damage through sustained blows, Clark can do the kind of damage Aquaman can do with a few of his own. It's not an outlier. It's the explanation for how Clark keeps hurting high level people. Atomic Skull (while seriously lacking in feats in New 52) is pretty much always portrayed as a high tier and yet Clark did damage by punching him. Ukur can allegedly take more than one punch from powered Superman; depowered Clark cannot beat him. However repeated blows from Truth Clark are enough to draw blood and knock him down. With a number of blows Clark can do very heavy damage. This much is consistent. There's no way this kind of damage won't be enough to put the hurt on Yang. Based on what Clark has shown he can do damage-wise I would say it was absurd to suggest that Clark could not, for instance, punch someone through a four-foot concrete pillar.
Hmm yes and no would be my reply I suppose. Yes in the sense that he did incap Manta with cumulative blows, that cannot be denied. But we also have Clark failing to KO the shadow monsters without using the environment, or being overpowered by Jim Gordon's Bat-Suit armour and failing to KO Wrath to name a few. So whilst I concede Superman does possess the damage output to hurt Yang, this does not mean he has the damage to put her down. Even if Clark can replicate punching Yang through concrete pillar force, this made her strong enough to overpower the Paladin mech. In doing so much damage, this could have Clark the fight.
I understand that this is icky-sounding powerscaling but if we are going to be honest about Clark's striking power we have to address this. If he can beat down people that durable than his striking power simply must be comparable to Yang's.
I do agree we have to be honest about Clark's striking power, hopefully that's been maintained in this debate on both sides.
Just an aside, I think your timestamps in the videos you've been posting have been off, I've had to go back and find examples of what you've been talking about. NBD but it was a little confusing at first.
Anyway yeah, I guess you set yourself up for this but I agree with Yang's papa on this one, relying on her semblance doesn't make her invincible. She does have skill on her side though.
I can see my timestamps have been inaccurate for the video I was citing. I do apologise for that both to you and the voters. I'll quote the relevant quotes from the video ad vertabim below so readers can see exactly what point I'm trying to make without having to watch the video if they don't wish to (3:02-5:35)
Tai: Do you realise that you used your Semblance to win every fight after the qualifiers?
Yang: So what? How is me using my Semblance any different from someone else using theirs?
T: Because not everyone else's is basically a temper tantrum. I'm serious, once you take damage you can dish it back twice as hard but that doesn't make you invincible. It's great when you're in a bind but what happens if you miss? What happens if they're stronger? What then? Now you're just weak and tired.
T: ...You've got to keep your emotions in check. Keep a level head and think before you act. Your Semblance is a great fallback but you can't let yourself rely on it. It won't always save you. Obviously.
T: ...You both act like the easiest way to tackle an obstacle is through it. That strength is all that matters in a fight. But if you just take a look, maybe you see there's a way around as well.
Yang then manages to outskill her dad with a trip and throw maneuver. Hopefully the damn link works properly this time. Fight starts at 5:38 and the flip happens at 6:05.
Tai's a trained huntsman and was still caught off guard by Yang's technique. In contrast, Superman, at least this version, has always been hot headed and aggressive in a fight, same as Yang. The difference is that Yang has her skill to fall back on whereas Superman often let his emotions get the best of him, especially during this period where he'd lost most of his powers. He could be knocked off balance from Yang's superior technique opening him up to attack for instance.
I can't deny that Truth Supes is mainly a brawler (lol he did it for money) but even then he has good battle sense. He grappled with sand Supes, realizing he was outmatched in strength, and showed no hesitation blocking attacks from opponents like Crow.
Often he did not need to do much more than throw punches because even in Truth his opponents were usually weaker than him, but I think he is demonstrably capable of more if necessary.
Not to mention, as you no doubt can agree with, Clark has shown himself capable of keeping up with highly skilled opponents in the past back when he still had his powers. He's matched Zod in combat before; hell he fought Zod and Faora at the same time.
Unfortunately not quite on par with Yang's fighting technique. She's been able to outfight opponents who mainly used a fighting style centred around kicks (which she isn't so good against)
Not to mention, as you no doubt can agree with, Clark has shown himself capable of keeping up with highly skilled opponents in the past back when he still had his powers. He's matched Zod in combat before; hell he fought Zod and Faora at the same time.
There are times where New 52 Superman does show some skill but unfortunately I'm sure you know your example is from the same issue Zod broke Superman's arm and had him at his mercy. I agree with you that this is a bad showing for Clark in advance, I don't think he should have been chumped so easily by Zod. However, the writer's intent at the time was that Clark was powerful but untrained according to Wonder Woman. Feel free to bring up Superman's fight with Wraith, that is a decent showing of skill.
Also, damn, I think that arm would make Bucky jealous.
It's a pretty cool arm for sure. Not enough feats to use yet though, hence why I went with a Pre metal arm Yang.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but it can't really have been a one-shot in that case, could it? Considering Neon was apparently already using up aura during the fight.
My mistake for not making myself clear. My point was Yang's shotgun blast brough Neon Katt's aura level down to zero where she could have been one shotted by an attack. When Yang was tricked into attacking Mercury after their tournament fight had finished, his aura level had been depleted and the crowd thought Yang had broken his leg unprovoked (she didn't really since Mercury has cyborg legs, long story on those)
In Conclusion
We've said our pieces many times over. At this point, I don't think I need to overstate things for the voters. Yang may be more flashy in her fights than Clark but there's substance in there too. She's proven to have the physicals to hang with Clark initially and her Aura is durable enough to keep her in the fight against Clark's hits. Her Ember Celica gauntlets allow her to attack Clark from a range with her firepower that Superman lacks in this fight without heat vision or freeze breath. Yang's superior fighting skill are an excellent complement to her stats enabling her to outskill Clark's simplistic brawling style. As the fight turns into a ballroom blitz with Clark and Yang landing blows upon each other, Yang will resort to her Semblance to overpower Clark at some point in the fight. Despite Clark's tanky durability and damage soak endurance, his resistance won't be able to hold out against Yang's beefed up damage output, resulting in an unconscious Superman.
@amendment50 You can wrap this up now. This has been fun, I don't often partake in street level debates but Yang's powerset was up my alley for debating. And you've been a very challenging opponent, I often needed to deliberate to come up with the right kind of counters for your points. I look forward to seeing how you conclude your side.
Pfft yeah it does. And Yang's golden locks>Clark's silly skinhead.
Bah Clark is a sexy beast and you know it.
Action Comics #46
...Er, wrong picture, hang on.
Superman #46
No wait, I meant... aw, forget it.
I'm actually surprised I remembered what happened in Superman Annual #3 personally, I've been trying to block the memory of Truth out of my mind but unfortunately this debate brought all those memories back.
Hahaha, instead of a CaV we should have just had a debate about whether Truth was good or not.
Luckily I got a good use out of it though. I agree the truck weighing more than the school bus was worth mentioning but it still shows Superman visibly struggling to perform a feat of strength. Struggle was a big part of the Truth & Savage Dawn story arc after all, in many of the scans you've shown, Superman had to put in blood, sweat and tears just to beat foes he would have shrugged off before. It's not unimpressive but it does show clear strain and fatigue on Superman's part which could be detrimental when fighting Yang. I've admitted Yang doesn't have strength feats on par with Clark's but she excels at striking strength like Clark.
Honestly I don't really disagree with anything you've said here. It does demonstrate his weakness but at the same time the feat in and of itself is not a bad showing of raw strength and is still superior to that of Yang.
Exactly, it's Manta's planning and choice of weaponry and gadgets that gives him the ability to fight Aquaman toe to toe. Manta has tanked attacks from Arthur but by that same token Aquaman has demonstrated the ability to wreck Manta with his fists or trident.
Agreed, but requiring multiple blows to get taken down by Aquaman is something Clark and Manta have in common.
I do think it's a stretch for Clark to draw blood from Aquaman though, Arthur is so much stronger than Clark and Yang that Clark drawing blood from him felt off. Personally I consider Truth Superman to be below the likes of Luke Cage and Spider-Man physically and I wouldn't dream of either of them being able to draw blood from Arthur.
You know, I do think that is fair. I would argue that Clark's strength is not that dissimilar from Luke Cage's (unless maybe Bendis is involved) but comparing the two makes sense and I would agree with you that neither of those two would draw blood from Arthur. Could possibly be attributed to the fact that Arthur was holding back against him but more likely than that, I will concede, it's just erroneous.
However I was just using that to justify comparing Manta and Clark physically and I still feel that comparison is fair.
Deathstroke contending through superior skill and tactics is granted but it is actually applicable to Manta. Manta is a decent fighter, he can kill a guard with just a coin. So Deathstroke wasn't just outfighting a physically superior foe, he was outfighting a skilled opponent who was initially fighting in his turf. Getting back on topic, the relation to Clark is that not only is he fighting a foe who physically stacks up to him, but knows how to fight better too.
I think you're forgetting that essentially most of the world not only knew Superman was Clark Kent but that he had also lost most of his powers. These are just 2 examples of Superman's depowered state being public knowledge.
If the general public is aware of it, a member of a black ops team of supervillains should be obviously aware of his status too. The point of this discussion is how impressive Manta is to understand how impressive it was for Clark to beat him. I see your point that Manta has some good showings against Aquaman but on the other hand we don't know the full extent of his durability when facing other foes.
That would be pretty damn hard to forget considering it is the whole reason the arc is called "Truth" in the first place lol. But just because his identity as Clark Kent is out in the open doesn't mean people don't think of him as Superman anymore.
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Superman #44, #46
I interpreted Manta's surprise at holding his own against Superman to be an indication that Clark was even more depowered than he had expected. In the same fight, after blasting Clark, he points out "your recovery time is longer" which indicates that he is learning Clark's limits during that fight.
Anyway, regardless, that's not particularly important. I've made my point about Manta and I think that in comparison to Aquaman it makes an impressive showing for Clark as well.
Obviously regular Superman wouldn't break a sweat on Yang but that's not who we're discussing here. Based on Ukur's feats, if he cannot KO a depowered Superman and takes damage from his blows, then he is not Superman level. Otherwise Superman wouldn't be depowered if he was able to take on a foe he thought he would have trouble with at full strength. And that clearly isn't the case. So brawling with Ukur is not so impressive when taken into full consideration.
I'm definitely not going so far as to suggest Superman would have had trouble beating Ukur at full strength, just the opposite was implied when he said he couldn't KO him with just a punch. Clearly Ukur was at a level well below Superman which is why I don't think depowered Clark taking him on should be surprising. My point is simply that Clark implied Ukur is durable enough to withstand one of his attacks when he was at full strength and that alone makes it impressive that Clark can hurt him and throw down with him.
We don't know for certain how much of Diana's energy it had taken. An unquantifiable amount of Diana's power was in that machine and Diana didn't appear any weaker after she was free. She was able to pull dozens of criminals in one hand and Clark, Parasite and Firestorm in the other whilst escaping from an underwater base so she must not have lost all her energy to that power draining machine.
It's true that she didn't get all of her energy drained but evidence points to it being a fairly sizable amount. Diana did seem to imply that the suit was getting stronger quickly, in-between blows, and by the time Clark broke from the machine's grip he had already been KO'd so a good amount of time has to have passed.
Superman/Wonder Woman #24
After that Diana said Clark only had a few minutes at best until Firestorm got fully drained so clearly he was absorbing a lot of power on a small time frame.
Clark's fall from the helicopter doesn't seem particularly comparable to Yang being knocked into the sky and back into Beacon again. But you're right to bring up the comedic aspect, it was basically a punchline of the food fight so that does lessen its validity I will admit. It is a feat for Yang though, hence why I brought it up since she doesn't have a wealth of feats to draw upon.
Unfortunately we don't know how high the helicopter was in the scan I showed of Clark falling that height so we don't know if he would have hit terminal velocity or not. However I think that scan is more similar to Yang's fall than Clark being launched six miles out of Metropolis which is especially true considering the questionable nature of Yang's feat.
Tanking Sand Superman's punch is a definite outlier for Truth Superman. It would be equally unfair if I used Vandal Savage beating the snot out of Truth Superman, who by feats is weaker than Yang.
Both of these events happened yet which one is the more accurate representation? The feat where Superman survives a hit from a being with over three quarters of his original power? Or the fight where he gets beaten up by a peak human-low level superhuman? You have to remember consistency is a factor in this debate too, and it has to be said Truth Superman wasn't consistently surviving hits from high tiers.
Well it is worth noting that Vandal was noted to be stronger than usual and Vandal himself fought Wrath in Action Comics #48 so that statement holds up (I mean hell, Vandal casually punches Clark through a tree even in the scan you showed so obviously he's no creampuff).
Even still, that is a fair objection... however, I feel it is one I have already addressed repeatedly. I have already said that Clark is clearly not on a high tier level of physicals in any respect and if it were possible for Clark to go punch for punch with that sand Superman I would be trying to argue Yang would not even be able to tickle him based on that difference in stats. So yes strictly speaking that feat is an outlier compared to his overall durability. However it is not an isolated showing and with comparison to Clark's other durability showings against opponents stronger than Yang it illustrates the durability and damage soak Clark possesses that will overwhelm Yang. The importance of consistency is the reason I brought up so many different scans of Clark doing well against stronger opponents- Aquaman, Atomic Skull, the Wonder Woman machine, Ukur, and sand Superman. Obviously not all of those are on the same level but even the weakest of them should be comparable to Yang.
As for the explosion scan, Clark is riding out the explosion from a distance, it's not as if Clark is tanking the force of the explosion point blank.
I object to that.
Action Comics #42
Clark rassled the shadow monster directly into the gas truck while riding on top of it so he was right next to the explosion when it went off.
Yes but that was a green New 52 Superman who hadn't lost most of his power to be fair and behaved a lot rougher and more aggressively. Also, the reason why the Sand Superman was using the Solar Flare was because that was how the Quarmers had absorbed Superman's power in the first place. It's incorrect to say Clark had only just figured out how to use it, up until losing his powers completely, I can count about 5 times Superman had used the Solar Flare before losing his powers. Plus he was training to use it with the Justice League in Superman #40.
He had only learned to use the Solar Flare a few months prior so compared to the amount of time since he was a newbie (which was the point of comparison I was using) he had just figured out how to use it. If the argument is about how good of control the sand Superman had over its powers I think it is more than fair to say it is more comparable to recent Superman than to a green Superman. In goading it to use the Solar Flare Clark compared its behavior to his own recent reliance on the technique which supports what I'm saying.
I think I'm starting to understand where you're coming from, do you mean the angle and timing needed to jump onto a moving jet liner mid-flight makes it more precise than what Yang has done?
Clark would embarrass Yang in the Olympic high jump, point conceded. Yang beats him in shot put though.
Angle and timing as well as reaction speed in the air yes. Meaning that while Yang's propulsion can blast her out of the area the same way Clark can leap she does not have the precise control that he does and cannot necessarily take the fight wherever she wants. Which gives Clark more environmental control.
Since when was kicking up dirt a qualified of the force of a punch? It's not as if the dirt and air pressure caused any big destruction in One Punch Man style. The Solar Flare from Sand Superman is impressive, although it was not a full powered Solar Flare since a full powered solar flare is supposed to incinerate everything in a quarter mile radius and the radius on the failed Solar Flare looked to be about 50-100 foot radius max.
I was really just referring to environmental damage over a wide area but the other scans I referenced are better for that anyway. Of course it was not a fully-fledged Solar Flare (I did refer to it as a "failed Solar Flare", if it was full-powered I probably would have used it initially as a durability feat :P) however it was clearly a wide blast radius.
I see you've co-opted my reference against me, good job. He looks banged up from the collateral effects of that blast though.
A little banged up maybe, in that it took him a second to recover, but not significantly hurt by any means. After taking that blast he would go on to run around saving more people (including doing that school bus feat) without resting first.
With Yang's gauntlets being able to propel her rapidly into the air and make her move even quicker, it's a possibility she can build up that momentum to use on Clark. And I really cannot see him shrugging off that kind of blow at all.
Considering the time and telegraphing of her attack that would be required to pull something like that off Clark would have the opportunity to use his superior aerial mobility to get out of the area before that happened. And I argue that Clark has shown himself capable of, if not shrugging off, at least surviving against a blow of that caliber.
Still, even if you're correct, Yang can still lay a barrage of blows on Clark like she did against Junior and Mercury Black which successfully overpowered them. Clark would still be taking heavy damage from these attacks.
He's a much less skilled fighter than Mercury (he was able to contend with Pyrrha Nikos who in turn had just soloed a team of 4 Huntsmen students by herself in a training battle) so he'd struggle to hit her too.
Mercury may be more skilled but Yang had difficulty contending with him too, and even still I doubt he has anything to prove he has comparable durability to Clark. Even then it still took nine of those semblance powered blows to take him out, and Yang's aura was heavily depleted after that fight as shown by the scoreboard. So a barrage like that would not come without its drawbacks for Yang.
Meanwhile Mercury was not capable of powering through any of those attacks and once Yang got going he was not able to do anything but recoil backwards. I argue Clark at least has the endurance to counterattack which should be able to prevent a totally lethal barrage, and environmental shielding could help him with that too.
A) Even Yang's regular blows could ragdoll cars, one shot large Grimm and shatter a wall like it was paper mache. Those should be enough to cause Clark pain despite the things he has tanked. I checked the context of Clark's stand against the police just for my own recollection, not to doubt your word and you were right of course, Clark was tired from fighting the shadow monster already yet he could still fight back. But Yang has also fought Grimm for an entire day in RWBY Volume 2, Chapters 9-10 with barely any sleep and was still able to help in the fight against a Grimm invasion in Chapters 11-12 (that gif of Yang being knocked out of the sky whilst blasting Grimm is of a sleep deprived Yang)
Being sleep deprived isn't really the same thing as being heavily battle-damaged. This showing may be a good demonstration of Yang's resilience but it doesn't serve as a durabliity/endurance showing the same way Clark's does because it's not really a question of her being able to last in a fight having taken lots of damage.
B) Whilst the higher showings Truth Superman has displayed cannot be discounted, they are not above question either. Of course Clark withstanding a single blow from someone on Aquaman or Sand Superman's level is undoubtedly impressive, more often than not, it does not take this kind of force to weaken or overpower Superman. He can lose blood can be drawn from high tech police bats, high calibre armour piercing bullets can pierce his skin and low level superhumans can damage him. It's certainly not all rose petals for Superman at this point, he was battered and bruised to hell and back and there was rarely a point in the story where something didn't cause him pain. Yang's Semblance enables her to take the damage she's received and inflict it back on her foes twice as hard. When Yang's Semblance activates, the tide of battle tends to turn against her opponents. I'm still not convinced Clark has a strong chance of withstanding Yang's high end attacks before he's KOed, his durability and damage soak can only go so far next to Yang's damage output.
I suppose it comes down to how much ability to soak damage you are willing to accept Clark has. I don't question that Yang can hurt Clark and if they fought in a comic book no doubt there would be plenty of text boxes of him whining about being in pain. But while he has taken damage by
high tech police bats, high calibre armour piercing bullets can pierce his skin and low level superhumans can damage him
all of these things, not one of them KO'd him, and that is my point. I think his higher showings are a demonstration of what it takes to take him down for good, not what it simply takes to damage him, when Clark is going all-out. And because Clark has shown such good endurance and ability to power through damage and pain, he should have the ability to deal with Yang that way. His durability and endurance work together to make him such a tanky fighter.
The fights in RWBY and the fights during Truth are of a different variety for sure. You have defended your side well though, and at several points you have shown why Clark's striking power is a match for Yang's regular blows. It's just that the Semblance changes the debate on physicals. Yang's feats in that regard don't just look better, they do better damage too IMO.
Well on striking power I am basically in agreement with you there. Their regular blows' striking power is close to each other's while semblance gives Yang the (temporary & very risky) ability to hit harder. Which is where Clark's durability comes in.
I did feel I needed to distinguish the differences between those two examples since they involved a similar chain of events but I didn't intend to make a direct correlation between Yang's pillar feat and Clark's feats against Parasite. The visual comparison was what drew me to them though perhaps I should have chosen to compare Yang's best with Clark's best.
So we are in agreement that those two feats are not really all that comparable.
I do I'm afraid, scaling is not something I'm a big fan of unless there is good enough grounds to justify it. Aren't Clark's feats of busting through steel doors and concrete walls examples of better striking power anyway by feat measurement? Regardless, Clark may have hurt some tough people but I don't believe Clark can KO Yang before she activates her Semblance which is the crux of this fight.
I do think those are good feats but it is better to provide showings for Clark that are less casual and hurting opponents with good durability is a good demonstration of that. Because Yang's Semblance does not make her more durable I argue that he does not really need to KO her before she activates her Semblance as it will not take nearly as much to crack her durability or endurance as the reverse.
A few blows from a holding back Aquaman though to be fair.
Very debatable in my opinion. You can hardly say Aquaman is holding back against Manta every time he hits him.
Also, we can't determine the extent of his durability outside of his fight with Superman alone. Logically, if Manta loses to Truth Superman, he has no business fighting the vastly more powerful Aquaman. Yet that won't change Manta taking multiple blows from a full powered Aquaman in future comics.
It is true that inconsistency plays some role as with every comic character but the bottom line is that Manta has showings against Aquaman and was also beaten by Truth Superman, so that has to speak to Clark's ability to dish out damage.
Hmm yes and no would be my reply I suppose. Yes in the sense that he did incap Manta with cumulative blows, that cannot be denied. But we also have Clark failing to KO the shadow monsters without using the environment, or being overpowered by Jim Gordon's Bat-Suit armour and failing to KO Wrath to name a few.
I don't know that I agree that those are low showings. Wrath was honestly packing a lot of power, for instance, with a small amount of her power through Lee, she was capable of toppling buildings as I showed, and Clark fought against her briefly. He did struggle with Gordon Batman but even then that robot suit was damn impressive physically.
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Batman #42
So whilst I concede Superman does possess the damage output to hurt Yang, this does not mean he has the damage to put her down. Even if Clark can replicate punching Yang through concrete pillar force, this made her strong enough to overpower the Paladin mech. In doing so much damage, this could have Clark the fight.
I don't think Yang has shown the durability or endurance to withstand that kind of prolonged damage especially given that her Semblance is depleting her own aura.
I do agree we have to be honest about Clark's striking power, hopefully that's been maintained in this debate on both sides.
I don't think I have been unreasonable about Clark's damage output thus far. I do feel I have demonstrated Clark is powerful enough to seriously threaten Yang with his attacks but I have been careful not to oversell him.
I can see my timestamps have been inaccurate for the video I was citing. I do apologise for that both to you and the voters. I'll quote the relevant quotes from the video ad vertabim below so readers can see exactly what point I'm trying to make without having to watch the video if they don't wish to (3:02-5:35)
It's cool. Youtube is irritating and stupid at times.
Tai: Do you realise that you used your Semblance to win every fight after the qualifiers?
Yang: So what? How is me using my Semblance any different from someone else using theirs?
T: Because not everyone else's is basically a temper tantrum. I'm serious, once you take damage you can dish it back twice as hard but that doesn't make you invincible. It's great when you're in a bind but what happens if you miss? What happens if they're stronger? What then? Now you're just weak and tired.
T: ...You've got to keep your emotions in check. Keep a level head and think before you act. Your Semblance is a great fallback but you can't let yourself rely on it. It won't always save you. Obviously.
T: ...You both act like the easiest way to tackle an obstacle is through it. That strength is all that matters in a fight. But if you just take a look, maybe you see there's a way around as well.
Yang then manages to outskill her dad with a trip and throw maneuver. Hopefully the damn link works properly this time. Fight starts at 5:38 and the flip happens at 6:05.
Tai's a trained huntsman and was still caught off guard by Yang's technique. In contrast, Superman, at least this version, has always been hot headed and aggressive in a fight, same as Yang. The difference is that Yang has her skill to fall back on whereas Superman often let his emotions get the best of him, especially during this period where he'd lost most of his powers. He could be knocked off balance from Yang's superior technique opening him up to attack for instance.
The ball is in Yang's court as far as raw skill is concerned; my point in highlighting Clark's ability to fight against skilled opponents is in demonstrating that such a disadvantage is not usually a big deal for him.
Unfortunately not quite on par with Yang's fighting technique. She's been able to outfight opponents who mainly used a fighting style centred around kicks (which she isn't so good against)
At the same time, judging from their fight, Yang would have been soundly beaten by Mercury if not for her Semblance making her too overwhelmingly strong for him.
And Clark has a lot of raw speed as well that easily allows him to move FTE in bursts so it's not like he can't tag her.
There are times where New 52 Superman does show some skill but unfortunately I'm sure you know your example is from the same issue Zod broke Superman's arm and had him at his mercy. I agree with you that this is a bad showing for Clark in advance, I don't think he should have been chumped so easily by Zod. However, the writer's intent at the time was that Clark was powerful but untrained according to Wonder Woman. Feel free to bring up Superman's fight with Wraith, that is a decent showing of skill.
It's true that Zod was superior and did beat him but Clark did contend against Zod- in the very next issue they fought close to evenly for some time despite Zod's vastly superior skill. And that is despite the fact that Zod and Clark had basically evenly matched stats which is of course not the case here.
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Superman/Wonder Woman #6
Zod and Faora didn't win here until Apollo intervened directly so I think it is a strong showing of skill on Clark's behalf.
But yes, if you insist, there is Wraith as well lol.
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Superman Unchained #8
So I think it is safe to say Yang does not have enough of a skill advantage to overwhelm Clark.
My mistake for not making myself clear. My point was Yang's shotgun blast brough Neon Katt's aura level down to zero where she could have been one shotted by an attack. When Yang was tricked into attacking Mercury after their tournament fight had finished, his aura level had been depleted and the crowd thought Yang had broken his leg unprovoked (she didn't really since Mercury has cyborg legs, long story on those)
Okay, I'm glad you clarified that.
In Conclusion
So likewise, I have made my points for Clark repeatedly so there is not too left much to summarize. Essentially, Yang has not demonstrated the ability to withstand the kind of damage Clark is capable of putting out in a drawn-out fight, but Clark has demonstrated the reverse. While Semblance, which Yang has to take damage to use in the first place, may give her a striking power advantage, it is not too much for Clark to overcome due to his consistently high damage soak and endurance. In addition his strength and resourcefulness with regards to the environment gives him an extra layer of protection against Yang's shotgun blasts, and if she were to take the time to try and build up the momentum using propulsion for an especially hard blow, Clark's own aerial mobility makes that an essentially moot point anyway- not to mention the fact that Clark's ability to move the battlefield can give him access to more cover. Yang does not have enough skill to put her out of Clark's reach as he has demonstrated based on his performances against other skilled opponents. When it comes down to it, blow for blow, Yang does not have what it takes to put out enough damage to KO Clark before the advantage granted to her by her Semblance is used up and Clark overtaxes her with his own powerful blows.
The aftermath of a tough fight.
@lvenger: Okey dokey, that's all. Thankfully I was able to get this done today after all.
Great job! No matter who wins I had a lot of fun with this. Debating a hall-of-famer was definitely a new and difficult experience.
I'll vote for @lvenger. @amendment50 was actually able to do a feat by feat match pretty well, but Lvenger had a better means of victory. Also I feel Yang has the stat advantage, although Clark has showings against powerhouses his own quantifiable feats suggests he shouldn't be more than a dust mite against those opponents which is why I struggle to acknowledge those. They have comparable high ends (getting punched sky high vs grappling with building busting opponents) but Yang looks better on average and flashy does sort of mean more quantifiable. Which, I think the vine mistakes "quantifiable" with "good" a bit much but it seems apt here.
There were a few feats and arguments I disagreed with but that's mainly because of prior knowledge I have which I'm not supposed to acknowledge.
Really great arguments from both sides. But my vote is for @lvenger. I think Clark would put up a great fight and @amendment50 showed some really good feats and arguments. But lvenger showed that Yang has more methods of attack and more long range advantages in the fight. While Truth Superman mainly has brawling feats and close combat. Great debate from both tho!
Lvenger's analysis on the matchup as a whole was spot on, Yang was presented with the better reflexes and combat speed, I mean she regularly keeps up with bullet deflectors and machinegun dodging huntsman and huntresses. Her skill is way beyond Supes in CQC, and using his prior experiences while powered up isn't enough to say otherwise in my opinion, especially considering Superman has other natural abilities to lean on asides from CQC while powered. The semblance is a hard counter to anyone who's in the same area statwise, and @amendment50 could not convince me that Yang wasn't in his ballpark when she clearly was. So realistically speaking in regards to the matchup, this was onesided from the beginning, the people Yang has lost to were those far more skilled than her, not those physically more able, like say Truth Supes. And @lvenger proved that Yang was close to Clark and superior to him in some ways which was enough to prove that Yang would end up being superior.
So let's look at things like this:
Yang is close enough to Clark Statwise in areas that would truly matter in the fight
She has ranged options that based off feats WILL hurt him
In raw H2H she has him outclassed
Her Semblence allows her to deal twice the amount of damage she would already be dealing clark. And as durable as he is, he can still be harmed fairly well by Yang's level of striking.
Lvenger presented Yang perfectly, while Amendment sort of went into a battle where he only had the strength and durability advantage to rely on.
I'll support @amendment50 on this because while I feel like yang was pretty powerful, kudos to @lvenger, and the arguments from both sides were fantastic, I felt like Clark definitely had the stat advantage, and while the speed advantage was gained by yang, it was a slight one, not enough to matter. overall, while yang's semblance was very useful and could have changed my mind, amendment showing me some of this superman's higher showings with Clark and the wonder woman machine, convinced me for him, even though lvenger did debunk them, but I felt like with those in mind, Clark would win.
Overall, a wonderful, civil debate and an entertaining thing to read. top mark to both debaters.
@lvenger has my vote. While Truth superman has strength the real drawback is JRJR's art how drastically vanilla he is compared to Yang. He's only got his strength and like 0.00000000001% of his signature invulnerability, but Yang's semblance was clearly the deciding factor. Her ability to dish out more damage as she takes it basically turn's Clark's strength into a liability. While @amendment50 put up some decent arguments for Clark's durability but I wasn't convinced it would hold out long enough for his raw strength to pull the win. Especially after the armor piercing rounds putting a hurting on him.
Enjoyed this a lot, and I'm going to vote @amendment50 . I was ready to vote @lvenger just from the beginning, but the Truth arguments won me over. Solid debate overall though. Intrigues me to learn more about Yang Xiao Long
I would like to bump this again, most likely a loss for me judging from the numbers so far but still would be nice to get a decent number of votes and get this closed if only to make my bio look nicer lol.
@god_vulcan: You said you were interested, did you ever read through this?
Very nice CaV, both did great in representing their characters. It became clear that TS got the strength advantage, while Yang got the speed advantage. However, I did not see the speed advantage being that big based on the arguments shown, while the strength advantage was quite significant. I'm giving this one to truth Superman. Both sides had great arguments though.
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