CaV: Toshiro Hitsugaya (RikuYamaha) Vs Estarossa (Menos_Kegare) open for votes

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RikuYamaha

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#1  Edited By RikuYamaha
No Caption Provided

Toshiro Hitsugaya- repped by Me

VS

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Estarossa- repped by Menos_Kegare

Battle rules

EOS Toshiro with access to Adult form.

Pre jikai Estarossa.

Both characters are IC but determined to win.

Win by any means necessary.

Estarossa can access the truth but his own commandment"Love" is restricted.

Restricted Soul crush.

Estarossa can see and interact with Toshiro.

Battle takes place: Britannia

No Caption Provided

CaV Rules

This is a CaV, so please, vote on who made the better argument, not on who you think would win.

Any bias will not be countered in the votes.

Any disrespectful or Mean comments will be Asked to be deleted, if refusal, a Mod will be sent to delete it.

For Votes, say T4V

To be tagged for posts, say TAEP

This is all.

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RikuYamaha

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@Menos_Kegare is this good?

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FullMetalEmprah

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TAEP.

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AnimeFreak1

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TAEP

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Menos_Kegare

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@rikuyamaha: is Toshiro starting in base/shikai/bankai?

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BNinja

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TAEP and T4V.

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RikuYamaha

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Menos_Kegare

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StormShadow_X

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Tag

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johnsmjs36

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TAEP

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UltimateSage

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Teap please

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ThousandSteps

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TAEP, I’m curious to see how a pre jikai Estarossa can be repped against friggin adult Toshiro. GL to both.

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troupemaster

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TAEP

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Menos_Kegare

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#14  Edited By Menos_Kegare

Estarossa, the Demon-Dreaming Angel:

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Strength:

Completely unphased by Ban trying to stop him from stabbing Meliodias, even with Ban sapping some of his strength:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In addition, simply flexing his back was enough to turn Ban into a red mist.

As a reference, Ban and Meliodas simply arm-wrestling was enough to topple Baste Dungeon:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Size of Baste Dungeon.

Is able to smack around and damage Escanor:

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The same Escanor didn't even budge an inch from Galand's attack.(Notice in that last scan's 2nd panel the shockwave by itself cut the tops of hills in the distance):

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As well as the fact Galand has the power to leave large slices in the land that extend for miles:

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Speed:

Intercepts Meliodas' Revenge Counter:

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Meliodas from early on was able to react and deflect lightning:

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The Meliodas that Estarossa intercepted was even faster, completely out-speeding and stomping Galand:

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And again cutting him up without him even being able to see the movement:

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Galand beforehand was able to completely trash Meliodas:

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To further cement this, he's also fought and blocked Escanor:

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Who in turn sliced Galand apart before he could even react:

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Durability:

Scales above Meliodas, who tanked a huge attack from Gloxina:

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As well as taking multiple attacks from Escanor:

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Gets hit with an ARK from Elizabeth, and overpowers it:

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Gets hit and flies straight through an attack from 2 Archangels:

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Keep in mind that just one of them is enough to overpower Galand(who I've already displayed feats for) as well as Deriere:

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Darkness:

Darkness is a unique trait of the Demon Clan the allows them to do a myriad of things.

Such as regeneration:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

As well as flight:

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Initial Thoughts:

Going into this fight, there are a few advantages that I should bring up in the initial post.

The first being Estarossa's signature ability, "Full Counter":

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Essentially, it allows him to reflect physical attacks back at the attacker. Why is this important? Well, seeing as I'm fighting a person known to trade blows with a sword... you get the idea. Point is, coming into CQC for some sword-play is only going to end up with Toshiro hitting himself.

But that's all fine and dandy, right? After all, he still has his zanpakuto's ability for ice manipulation. Sure, that's a way to circumvent Full Counter. However, Estarossa also has Hellfire to help manage that as well:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

In addition, that Hellfire doggo will keep on burning things by itself until there's nothing left to burn - meaning he can just set it loose to do its own thing while he engages Toshiro himself. Of course, I'm not trying to say this would completely negate your ice, this is just to serve as a precautionary buffer to lessen its impact.

To further this, he can then use "Black Out" to nullify your ice-based attacks:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In short, Estarossa should be able to effectively neutralize Hitsugaya's attacks and go in for the kill.

Somewhat credit to @alextheboss for making some scans easier to get ahold of. lol

@rikuyamaha

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Menos_Kegare

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Oh gawd, CV, what have you done to my image formating

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RikuYamaha

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@menos_kegare: weird, i didnt expect it to be up so fast. i'll have mine up in the week.

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RikuYamaha

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"The Youngest Gotei Captain" Captain Hitsugaya Toshiro

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Thoughts before battle.

well, i didn't expect my opponents post to be up so fast. honestly, i thought it would take them a few days before posting but due to this, it caught me off guard.

nevertheless, from what my opponent posted, this shall be a relatively easy battle for me, but enough of my rambling.

lets go into the good stuff!

Things i will be going over.

Things to know

Zanpakuto power/strength.

speed/agility.

durability.

tactical skills.

counters.

conclusion.

Things to know.

well here we go.

Reiryoku: A source of power aligned with the spiritual sensitivity and willpower of the user. Every spiritual being and every Human has a certain amount of Reiryoku. If this amount is higher than a certain degree, it grants the person superhuman abilities.

Reiatsu: The physical force/pressure that a person’s Reiryoku creates when released. A battle between Shinigami is a battle of Reiatsu.

Reishi: Spirit particles, it is the material that makes up souls and spiritual matter. Hueco Mundo, Soul Society, and beings that live in them are entirely made up of Reishi.

Zanpakutō: The main weapon of the Shinigami, the Arrancar, and the Visored and in it's sealed state, it takes the form of a katana. The swords are reflections of the user's power and soul, and sentient beings unto themselves. The Zanpakutō's name is the name of the living spirit which empowers the sword and lends its strength to the user who wields it.

Shikai: The initial release to a Shinigami's Zanpakutō. It is activated by a command while declaring the name of the Zanpakutō Spirit. It changes the shape of the Zanpakutō and/or granting special abilities. Bankai: The ultimate and final release to a Zanpakutō. The difference in power between Shikai and Bankai is generally around 5-10 times more powerful for combat skills and abilities. Even though Bankai is the final stage of a Zanpakutō, it does not mean the Shinigami's growth ends there.

i am now done with this part, lets get into the strength category.

Zanpakuto/Strength

i will be keeping this section sort and simple,because there are a few things i will be going over to simply prove my points, if i feel the need to add more feats, i shall, but i'll be going over the main ones.

now lets get into how Shinigamis and the beings fight in bleach.

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a battle between shinigami is a battle of spirit energy. as Captain Zaraki quotes" When two spiritual forces collide, the weaker of the two absorbs the impact." this is implying that if a opponent is weaker then the other , the force of the attack will recoil like a gun or double edge sword to harm the person inflicting the damage.

now, i'll show why this is important in a moment, but for now, lets get into what Toshiros Zanpakuto is.

Hyorinmaru

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Hyorinmaru is Toshiros Zanpakuto. Hyorinmaru is entirely made of ice and is designed to be a sort of chinese dragon from mythology. even though it has a peaceful look, it is actually a highly dangerous zanpakuto spirit, as at a very young age, he almost passively killed his grandmother because of his unchecked power of Hyorinmaru.

but lets get into what This Zanpakuto can do. its primary ability is too have absolute control over Water and Ice respectively.

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this may seem a bit lackluster at first, until you realize its true power.

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this allows him to perfectly control weather patterns and use them in battle at a whilm.

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at i'll let it be known that this is all happening in his meer shikai form, which is several times weaker then bankai. but nonetheless, it has AMAZING reach. one of the best ranged zanpakutos in my option, as the entire weather pattern change can be used over 7 miles.

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this gives him a undeniable reach advantage in almost any scenario.

but this is even further boosted by his bankai.

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his bankais name is Daiguren Hyorinmaru, which translates to great roaring coldly shining moon, although this is stupid information considering the translation is right in the picture.

now the thing about his bankai is that it really does not change much, as it just boosts his power and speed and the amount of ice and water he can produce.

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this is likely due to inexperience to his bankai, but its still holds massive ground considering the boost the bankai gives.

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this gives him a massive boost in power in bankai.

heck, even the mere act of activating his SHIKAI flash freezes everything within his area of effect.

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but what is special about Toshiros bankai is its ability to regenerate even after being destroyed. this is VERY rarely shown as only komamura is shown to have a bankai to heal itself, as stated by mauri, if a bankai breaks, it stays that way and will never return to its former power.

but Toshiros zanpakuto ignores this rule with its ability to regen anyway.

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but now that i went over the passive concept of his zanpakuto, lets get into his attacks shall we?

he was able to create a Massive city wide column to envelop his opponent.

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he can create several of theses columns to hunt down the opponent and incab them, and then kill them in one blow.

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with theses, he can simply flash freeze the opponent in one shot once it comes in contact with the ice.

he also has the ability to create ice clones.

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hes able to create a clone in such a fast time, not even the resurrection of a third espada could tell the difference between the clones. to even more fool the opponent, toshiro can make the clone to appear to be him and take damage or sub it in if hes in trouble.

he can immediately flash freeze a torrent of water so big, that it could be easily mistaken for a falling lake.

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with this type of power backing him, any frontal assault to toshiro will result into the opponent becoming a ice statue. but even with this, he got way more variations of his ice as hes able to sent several sharp ice shards at the opponent at high speeds.

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now im going to be getting to one of his most useful attacks here, which enables him to cause snow to fall from the sky. this is not normal snow however, when the snow touches something, the resulting effect causes a ice flower to bloom upon contact to a object or enemy. once 100 flowers has settled upon the enemy, they will die.

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with this, combined with his massive intelligence, i believe toshiro will cause it to snow, then as estra looks at it, freezes him in place until the flowers bloom and kill him.

but even after all of theses, he still has a massive array of uses for his zanpakuto. but i'll be going over the most useful ones.

he can shield a entire armada against bazzes flames with only thin layers of ice.

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what makes this feat so impressive is that bazzes flames can directly counter head captain Yamamotos flames of his zanpakuto.

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and as we know from yamamoto, his zanpakuto can burn at temps as hot as 15,000,000 degrees. although it was his shikai he counters, which should be around 5,000,000 degrees. even with this, his ice can block this level of heat in a thin unreformed form.

he can also cause a thick mist of ice to blind and disoriate the opponent so he can set up traps.

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and within theses mist, he can set up cunning traps to trap his opponents in.

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with this, he can easily take down strong enemies with this technique.

and even with a caucal swing in a much weakened form, hes able to flash freeze mayuri to the core, with just the sheer cold of his attack.

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now lets get into his most powerful form....His Adult Form.

within his adult form, he is able to freeze things to absolute zero even without direct contact.

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even if some how a enemy could get close to toshiro, direct contact with him will result into them or the object they hold to become frozen to the very core.

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and a truly dangerous ability of his is four seconds after entering adult form, which allows him to freeze any form of matter, including energy and some abilities.

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with theses type of attacks and forms, it does seem that estarossa can be easily overwhelmed by the sheer power and hax of toshiros abilities.

but enough of rambling about abilities, let get into strength.

Strength.

now im not going to go into much detail in strength as toshiro really revolves around his zanpakuto ability then just pure strength.

but this is the part where the spiritual pressure difference thing comes in, as its gonna play a major role within this win.

as in a battle with a arrancar, he was able to clash with it at 20% of his power because he was restricted from unleashing more then that in fear it would do harm to the human world. within the resulting clash cause a powerful city wide explosion in the air from the clash.

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he is also able to rip off the arm of the arrancar with ease after powering up a bit.

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hes also able to fight on par with harribel, whos vastly superior in strength then the previous espada from 4 and up.

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it is clear that she is superior to first release ulq, who can vape a part of a large island construct with ease. it can be scaled to a island or a VERY large city depending on how you scale it.

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it can also be debated that second form ulq is the same power as the thirds release. with the second release ulq being able to easily cause island level explosions with ease.

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and in his adult form, hes superior to shikai kenpachi. with shikai kenpachi being able to bust a massive meteor.

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this meteor is 1/3 the size of the seireitei, with the seireitei being the size of a country. kenpachi was able to do this with ease but was unable to damage gerards sword.

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this is further supported by the fact that toshiro was able to destroy it with a casual slice.

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and before you go saying that it was frozen before he hit it, the sword was already in full force when gerard swung it, and the moment of contact he froze it. meaning as soon as toshiro took the hit, it was already above kens meteor strike, meaning that adult toshiro is about a small country buster with his adult form and large island in his normal form.

now lets get into speed.

Speed/agility

im not gonna focus much on the speed part as toshiro is clearly faster, and i'll give a few examples as of why.

in the soul society arc, toshiro was able to dodge gins shikai point blank.

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Gin claims that his sword can extend itself up to 13 km (8.1 miles) at 500 times the speed of sound: exactly 171,500 meters (106.6 miles) per second in order to arrive at its full length in under 0.08 seconds, this is easily above the speed of lightning by several times.

hes also able o use shunpo, which enables him to move faster then his own insane movement speed, to appear behind the third before she could turn and react.

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he is also able to easily react to giant Gerard in base form without much effort.

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this gerard is so fast, that he can blitz shinji, byakuya and multiple high level shinigami casually without effort. thoses captains being several times faster then lightning by 40X.

hes also able to blitz and freeze gerard before he can even react to what was going on.

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as i already established, this gerard is able to blitz said captains, which honestly at bare minimum would make him Sub-Relativistic to sub rel+.

this puts him a bit above estarossa .

but lets get into the durability

Durability

this is one of his good suits as toshiro, despite his size and demeanor, is quite able to take Large amounts of damage without much trouble. i will keep this section short as well for convenience and send feats if needed.

hes able to tank a massive cero from the third without much effort. although he did lose one of his ice wings.

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this is impressive due to the third scaling above ulq in first release by in verse scaling.

hes also able to survive having his entire left leg and arm cut off by Aizen.

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hes also able to endure a burner finger to the chest without much effort.

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and as i stated, the finger burns at 5,000,000 degrees, which is highly impressive due to toshiro not being killed instantly by it.

hes also able to endure a burner finger two which caused a massive explosion.

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due to scaling and feats, bazz should be around island level as well, or slightly lower.

hes also able to tank a massive swing from giga giant Gerard without much damage.

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with this, his durability should be equal if not greater then Estarossa.

Tactical skills.

Toshiro is a master tactician as he can figure out high level strategies in the midst of combat. he is one of the smartest tactical masters in the verse, right behind byakuya, Mayuri, aizen and kisuke. but i'll show why that is so.

as soon as he saw the massacre that aizen made, he quickly deducted the time of death due to the blood and the orders they received, tracing it back to aizen and or gin in a few seconds.

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hes also able to gouge Yukio into becoming erratic and prion to slip ups by causing him to panic. he even made yukio go onto a monologue which toshiro was planning for.

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with this, he was single handedly able to cause yukio to shut down his ability by using his own monsters against yukio.

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hes even able in the heat of battle to set up a complicated trap in a few seconds and cause bazz to walk into it, ultimately activating the trap.

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with theses kind of battle and tactical skills, i find it hard for toshiro to lose as he can simply make a plan for estarossa and act accordingly for a easy win.

Counters.

Completely unphased by Ban trying to stop him from stabbing Meliodias, even with Ban sapping some of his strength:

nice feat honestly, but should this be a durability feat, not a strength feat?

In addition, simply flexing his back was enough to turn Ban into a red mist.

while impressive, its really not as ban while immortal is easy to turn into paste.

As a reference, Ban and Meliodas simply arm-wrestling was enough to topple Baste Dungeon:

Size of Baste Dungeon.

pretty nice.

Is able to smack around and damage Escanor:

a weakened escanor from the part of day, plus he didn't really damage him, but made escanor feel slightly inconvence due to being knocked around.

The same Escanor didn't even budge an inch from Galand's attack.(Notice in that last scan's 2nd panel the shockwave by itself cut the tops of hills in the distance):

Very good feat, but still below Toshiro cutting gerards sword.

As well as the fact Galand has the power to leave large slices in the land that extend for miles:

point above.

Speed:

Intercepts Meliodas' Revenge Counter:

is there a set speed for mels RC?

Meliodas from early on was able to react and deflect lightning:

ok? how is that above this?

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Gin claims that his sword can extend itself up to 13 km (8.1 miles) at 500 times the speed of sound: exactly 171,500 meters (106.6 miles) per second in order to arrive at its full length in under 0.08 seconds, this is easily above the speed of lightning by several times.

The Meliodas that Estarossa intercepted was even faster, completely out-speeding and stomping Galand:

cool. but still below gerard blitzing captains several times faster then that and toshiro blitzing said gerard before he could react.

And again cutting him up without him even being able to see the movement:

point above.

Galand beforehand was able to completely trash Meliodas:

might i add a weaker meliodas.

To further cement this, he's also fought and blocked Escanor:

escanor isnt really a speedster as escanor is about the same speed as meliodas, but stronger. idk why blocking a attack from him is good.

Who in turn sliced Galand apart before he could even react:

point above.

Durability:

Scales above Meliodas, who tanked a huge attack from Gloxina:

he scales above him physically. and there isnt really any proof atm from you to say estarossa could tank the same attack.

As well as taking multiple attacks from Escanor:

while massively impressive, most of escanors hits were not really killer intent, and when it was, estraossa had to use darkness to regen.

Gets hit with an ARK from Elizabeth, and overpowers it:

a good feat i'll give you that.

Gets hit and flies straight through an attack from 2 Archangels:

ok.

Keep in mind that just one of them is enough to overpower Galand(who I've already displayed feats for) as well as Deriere:

is there a feat for that for the manga? also what attack potency do you put the arcs?

Darkness:

Darkness is a unique trait of the Demon Clan the allows them to do a myriad of things.

Such as regeneration:

Cool! im not sure that'll stop him from getting flash frozen.

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As well as flight:

all shinigamis can fly so..

Initial Thoughts:

Going into this fight, there are a few advantages that I should bring up in the initial post.

The first being Estarossa's signature ability, "Full Counter":

Essentially, it allows him to reflect physical attacks back at the attacker. Why is this important? Well, seeing as I'm fighting a person known to trade blows with a sword... you get the idea. Point is, coming into CQC for some sword-play is only going to end up with Toshiro hitting himself.

well your right on how the ability works, but toshiro doesn't really always rush into battle swinging his sword around as he uses his ice abilities. at most he will jab at him then find out whats going on, then stick to ice attacks from afar.

But that's all fine and dandy, right? After all, he still has his zanpakuto's ability for ice manipulation. Sure, that's a way to circumvent Full Counter. However, Estarossa also has Hellfire to help manage that as well:

In addition, that Hellfire doggo will keep on burning things by itself until there's nothing left to burn - meaning he can just set it loose to do its own thing while he engages Toshiro himself. Of course, I'm not trying to say this would completely negate your ice, this is just to serve as a precautionary buffer to lessen its impact.

while impressive, i need to know the temp of said fire, cause if its below 5,000,00 or even even to that, its gonna be trapped.

To further this, he can then use "Black Out" to nullify your ice-based attacks:

good thing black out can be overpowered by beings stronger then them, which is where this comes in.

No Caption Provided

a battle between shinigami is a battle of spirit energy. as Captain Zaraki quotes" When two spiritual forces collide, the weaker of the two absorbs the impact." this is implying that if a opponent is weaker then the other , the force of the attack will recoil like a gun or double edge sword to harm the person inflicting the damage.

as i shown in my former posts, toshiro is quite stronger has more energy then estarossa, which could easily help him out in this battle. not to mention that estarossa cant black out 7 miles worth of sky at toshiro's disposal.

In short, Estarossa should be able to effectively neutralize Hitsugaya's attacks and go in for the kill.

point above.

Conclusion

Toshiro is stronger and has the physicals not only to keep up with estarossa, but to overpower him as well.

Toshiro is faster then him by a slight margin.

toshiro has more uses in attacks and can overwhelm him with his techniques.

toshiro can simply use his snow to destroy estarossa before he does anything.

toshiro is way smarter and more tactical that he can come up with plans to deal with anything he throws at him.

Toshiro can simply go adult if he feels threatened and end it in four seconds.

The winner of this shall go to the king of the skys! Toshiro Hitsugaya!

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RikuYamaha

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Menos_Kegare

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Hue hue hue. Cool post, some things I dont agree with, but fun. My post will be up tonight.

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mevbi

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#20  Edited By mevbi

TAEP

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RikuYamaha

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AlexTheBoss

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#22  Edited By AlexTheBoss

Somewhat credit to @alextheboss for making some scans easier to get ahold of. lol

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t4v

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Madrus17

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Madrus17

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TAEP

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Nice posts, two of you!

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Menos_Kegare

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#28  Edited By Menos_Kegare

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Responding to:

Strength/Zanpakuto:

Well, I guess the first things I'll address are things that are wrong, off, or just don't agree with in general.

he can shield a entire armada against bazzes flames with only thin layers of ice.

You're missing a few crucial points for this. Firstly, it wasn't just his ice that made this possible, nor did it "tank" his heat. He made multi-layered barriers with gaps between layers of air to form a vacuum that prevented the heat from fully melting through them all.

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Not only this but this feat, in particular, is something he's stated he's not good at and requires Matsumoto's help.

The rest of his ice was easily melted by Bazz B in every other instance.

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it can also be debated that second form ulq is the same power as the thirds release. with the second release ulq being able to easily cause island level explosions with ease.

It really can't be though, for a few reasons. Firstly, all the Espada are numbered on a general sense of who's stronger. This isn't absolute, and it's clear that various Espada have traits that are superior or different from other members. Secondly, this form of Ulquiorra was never revealed to anyone, including Aizen himself. The Espada ranks have no bearing on this form.

Not only that, but similar feats of sheer scale have only been seen during the Ichigo/Aizen fight and from the stronger Sternritter fights.

kenpachi was able to do this with ease but was unable to damage gerards sword.

This statement is just flat-out wrong. You can see the various nicks on Gerard's blade from clashing with Kenpachi

and before you go saying that it was frozen before he hit it, the sword was already in full force when gerard swung it, and the moment of contact he froze it. meaning as soon as toshiro took the hit, it was already above kens meteor strike, meaning that adult toshiro is about a small country buster with his adult form and large island in his normal form.

I wouldn't go that far. It's quite possible it was frozen before contact, as he displayed capable of when Gerard threw his shield at him.

All we really know is that by the time the blade was sliced, it was already frozen over. Furthermore, this showing goes against every other showing Toshiro has during the fight.

Like trying to intercept Kenpachi, and Kenny said he had to hold back against him.... while still wearing his eyepatch.

Or straight-up smacking him away from the fight.

Or being held by Gerard.

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The point is, nothing outside the one blade slicing suggests Toshiro being anywhere near them in terms of raw power - which supports the fact the blade was already frozen before Toshiro cuts it.

As for the rest of your presented arsenal.

he was able to create a Massive city wide column to envelop his opponent.

That's not really city-wise or massive tbh. Just judging it from the scale of the arrancar's silhouette in the ice, it's around the size of a large building.

he can create several of theses columns to hunt down the opponent and incab them, and then kill them in one blow.

Not really "hunting down the opponent"... Luppi just got careless and got tagged and surrounded because he ignored Toshiro. Even then, it didn't actually kill him.

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now im going to be getting to one of his most useful attacks here, which enables him to cause snow to fall from the sky. this is not normal snow however, when the snow touches something, the resulting effect causes a ice flower to bloom upon contact to a object or enemy. once 100 flowers has settled upon the enemy, they will die.

That's nice and all, but not that big of a threat tbh. While he says that, not many relevant fighters have actually be killed off by his ice. Even with his finishing technique that was used on Halibel, it didn't actually kill her - just more or less kept her... "on ice"... no pun intended... And she was practically fine when Wonderweiss shattered the ice around her.

I see no reason why he couldn't mend or protect himself with darkness and destroy it from the inside.

Furthermore, as I've shown just how much he scales above Galand.... I could clear the range of his finisher with ease.(Below a simple jump escaped Merlin's range of 186 miles.)

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hes also able to fight on par with harribel, whos vastly superior in strength then the previous espada from 4 and up.

This is another point that's not quite true. While Toshiro was fighting her, she almost always had the upper hand and it was an uphill battle for Toshiro until he used his final move which caught her off-guard more than anything else. Hell, she didn't even have a scratch on her by the end of their fight despite Toshiro sustaining a good chunk of damage and exhausting himself.

Not only this but even after being freed from the ice, Halibel was still able to keep fighting him plus 2 of the Vizards helping him in a 3v1.

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Even further, Toshiro didn't even beat her in the end - she has struck down by Aizen. So really, Toshiro =/= Halibel.

Speed:

Gin claims that his sword can extend itself up to 13 km (8.1 miles) at 500 times the speed of sound: exactly 171,500 meters (106.6 miles) per second in order to arrive at its full length in under 0.08 seconds, this is easily above the speed of lightning by several times.

That's about double-ish a bolt of lightning. Still, not out of range. As I showed in my initial post and brought up again in the above Strength post, Galand can clear 186 miles before Merlin can even use her spell on him(the same Merlin who herself is a lightning-timer). And Estarossa stopped a Meliodas who was blitzing that same Galand.

hes also able o use shunpo, which enables him to move faster then his own insane movement speed, to appear behind the third before she could turn and react.

He landed one clean hit on her the entire fight - and she broke out of it.

this gerard is so fast, that he can blitz shinji, byakuya and multiple high level shinigami casually without effort. thoses captains being several times faster then lightning by 40X.

This is just a complete lie. His only real speed-feat is reacting to Kenpachi. Everyone else he fought had context.

Shinji was trying to get to and save Hinamori:

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Hits Hiori as she's firing cero at him while she's providing a distraction for the others to attack:

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He attacked the other Vizards while under cover of their attacks:

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He has not blitz'd anyone, even once.

Durability:

this is impressive due to the third scaling above ulq in first release by in verse scaling.

First of all, that's not the same as Ulquiorra's Cero Oscuras. Halibel's is just a standard cero. If we know anything by this point, is there are a good amount of variants on the cero each with different power and other statistics.

Second, he shielded himself with his wing and the wing shattered as a result. Toshiro himself didn't really get hit by it.

hes also able to survive having his entire left leg and arm cut off by Aizen.

Having your limbs cut off is not a durability feat. That's more of pain tolerance or endurance feat.

hes also able to endure a burner finger two which caused a massive explosion.

That attack from Bazz B left him on death's door. Until he got his bankai back(which fixed his wounds - that's what the ice around his body is there for), he was basically waiting to be killed.

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hes also able to tank a massive swing from giga giant Gerard without much damage.

Okay, now we have something he was directly hit by and didn't kill him. However, it certainly left him in a sorry state where he had to be saved by Byakuya. Good thing his bankai matured afterward though.

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Skill:

i find it hard for toshiro to lose as he can simply make a plan for estarossa and act accordingly for a easy win.

A lot of the instances you posted are just their opponents being careless against basic things.

Counter Counters:

nice feat honestly, but should this be a durability feat, not a strength feat?

Could work for both, honestly.

he scales above him physically. and there isnt really any proof atm from you to say estarossa could tank the same attack.

That statement contradicts itself. You say he scales above him physically, but there's no proof he can't handle an attack Meliodas can at this stage? Estarossa has more raw physical power than Meliodas, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to physically handle an attack Meliodas can.

is there a feat for that for the manga? also what attack potency do you put the arcs?

Yep, I just had the video at the time so it was faster. Here's the manga scans:

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As for their potency, they'd have to be much more than their Omega's since the Commandments tanked them:

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As for Elizabeth, on the panel you can see it smacking him through some mountains. The only other instance of her actually attacking with it was against an early Demon King-Possessed Zeldris:

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a weakened escanor from the part of day, plus he didn't really damage him, but made escanor feel slightly inconvence due to being knocked around.

He wasn't weakened, he had a pretty sizable chunk of his power considering it was near noon at the time. He still smacked him around quite a bit, which is still very impressive since Galand couldn't even budge him.

Very good feat, but still below Toshiro cutting gerards sword.

Already addressed this under Toshiro's strength.

Speed:

ok? how is that above this?

The point was to set a precedent and then build on it, you didn't need to address every instance of the build-up. lol. The gist of that section relating to Meliodas was to show how fast he was before any of his upgrades. Then, display how that speed was child's play to Galand as well as how the Meliodas that Estarossa intercepted was vastly faster than Galand to the point he couldn't even see Meliodas' movements.

cool. but still below gerard blitzing captains several times faster then that and toshiro blitzing said gerard before he could react.

Already addressed this in Toshiro's speed.

escanor isnt really a speedster as escanor is about the same speed as meliodas, but stronger. idk why blocking a attack from him is good.

The point was to establish he's solidly in their speed tier with multiple showings against different people.

Darkness:

Cool! im not sure that'll stop him from getting flash frozen.

The majority of characters that Toshiro has "flash frozen" ended up being fine. Halibel literally wasn't even damaged. Anyway, I see no reason that Estarossa couldn't use his darkness to fix himself up or break out of it seeing as he's been able to rejuvenate himself from destruction on a molecular level:

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all shinigamis can fly so..

Just had to be said, otherwise, a flight vs grounded argument could be made.

while impressive, i need to know the temp of said fire, cause if its below 5,000,00 or even even to that, its gonna be trapped.

Already addressed that Toshiro uses special ice that he's not good and making without help above.

Regardless, Purgatory Flames are capable of burning things otherwise unburnable.

Example here, with fodder Demons raizing the Fairy King Forest which is immune to fire:

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good thing black out can be overpowered by beings stronger then them, which is where this comes in.

As I've shown so far, Toshiro really isn't above him - much less to the point that Toshiro could be unaffected by his abilities.

Furthermore, some things to keep in mind are:

  • Toshiro is cautious by nature. He's not going to go into these big finisher moves from the get-go. He'd most likely try and test his opponent out - especially someone like Estarossa who would have a bizarre energy composition even by Bleach standards.
  • Toshiro's fully matured Bankai takes time to activate, it's not a power he can draw upon immediately. This fight could end long before that chance even arises.

In short:

  • Estarossa should be plenty powerful enough to take Toshiro down.
  • A lot of the statements shown so far are not quite accurate with some being completely false.
  • Toshiro is by no means so fast that this becomes one-sided.

@rikuyamaha

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Menos_Kegare

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Counters! The Captains Move.

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Thoughts before i counter

i would like to note i didnt post alot of feats in my side, so i hope my opener was up to the best of vine if you would say that.

well anyway, there is not much to talk about besides the counters, so lets do this.

Counters- " You lost your focus..."

Well, I guess the first things I'll address are things that are wrong, off, or just don't agree with in general.

he can shield a entire armada against bazzes flames with only thin layers of ice.

You're missing a few crucial points for this. Firstly, it wasn't just his ice that made this possible, nor did it "tank" his heat. He made multi-layered barriers with gaps between layers of air to form a vacuum that prevented the heat from fully melting through them all.

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Not only this but this feat, in particular, is something he's stated he's not good at and requires Matsumoto's help.

while yes he did create many layers of ice, but i said no where it tanked as you implied. and while he needed a bit of her help, this does not change the fact a few moments after he was able to do the same thing in sealing him for a moment.

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The rest of his ice was easily melted by Bazz B in every other instance.

of course it was, but not instantly, as you were implying with the dark flames.

it can also be debated that second form ulq is the same power as the thirds release. with the second release ulq being able to easily cause island level explosions with ease.

It really can't be though, for a few reasons. Firstly, all the Espada are numbered on a general sense of who's stronger. This isn't absolute, and it's clear that various Espada have traits that are superior or different from other members. Secondly, this form of Ulquiorra was never revealed to anyone, including Aizen himself. The Espada ranks have no bearing on this form.

i know his form was never revealed, but going lore wise and by statements, she should be equal to his first form in base, as even similar in power with the sexta, grimmjow was able to fodderize the former without much effort in base. although i will not say its equivalent in strength, it should be noted due to the similarity in power, the higher number should note to be the stronger then the former.

Not only that, but similar feats of sheer scale have only been seen during the Ichigo/Aizen fight and from the stronger Sternritter fights.

i suppose so, but it really does not matter considering toshiro can scale to the highest sterns.

kenpachi was able to do this with ease but was unable to damage gerards sword.

This statement is just flat-out wrong. You can see the various nicks on Gerard's blade from clashing with Kenpachi

i should rephrase that. "was able to cause Heavy damage to Gerards blade" unlike toshiro.

and before you go saying that it was frozen before he hit it, the sword was already in full force when gerard swung it, and the moment of contact he froze it. meaning as soon as toshiro took the hit, it was already above kens meteor strike, meaning that adult toshiro is about a small country buster with his adult form and large island in his normal form.

I wouldn't go that far. It's quite possible it was frozen before contact, as he displayed capable of when Gerard threw his shield at him.

while possible, that's not the case.

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its clearly shown he had to swing and make contact with it before it hit him. because if he froze it before it hit him, it would of been frozen and toshiro would not of had to swing his sword like he does in the pic.

All we really know is that by the time the blade was sliced, it was already frozen over. Furthermore, this showing goes against every other showing Toshiro has during the fight.

point above.

Like trying to intercept Kenpachi, and Kenny said he had to hold back against him.... while still wearing his eyepatch.

Or straight-up smacking him away from the fight.

Or being held by Gerard.

1: because it would be attacking another capt and that would of caused more inconvenience.

2: because ken wanted to fight gerard himself.

3: he still froze his way out of that you know.

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and maybe you forgot, but toshiro was able to slightly parry a full swing from gerard in a weaker form.

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The point is, nothing outside the one blade slicing suggests Toshiro being anywhere near them in terms of raw power - which supports the fact the blade was already frozen before Toshiro cuts it.

points above.

As for the rest of your presented arsenal.

he was able to create a Massive city wide column to envelop his opponent.

That's not really city-wise or massive tbh. Just judging it from the scale of the arrancar's silhouette in the ice, it's around the size of a large building.

i suppose you could say that, either way, it still froze him solid as this isn't really for ap, but more of his showing of his abilities. plus its entirely plausable that he can considering he done much stronger attacks compared to this.

he can create several of theses columns to hunt down the opponent and incab them, and then kill them in one blow.

Not really "hunting down the opponent"... Luppi just got careless and got tagged and surrounded because he ignored Toshiro. Even then, it didn't actually kill him.

the reason for that is the light of the Negación.

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and for the ignoring part, that is wrong. even before he done that move, luppi was going to get serious as with this panel.

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now im going to be getting to one of his most useful attacks here, which enables him to cause snow to fall from the sky. this is not normal snow however, when the snow touches something, the resulting effect causes a ice flower to bloom upon contact to a object or enemy. once 100 flowers has settled upon the enemy, they will die.

That's nice and all, but not that big of a threat tbh. While he says that, not many relevant fighters have actually be killed off by his ice. Even with his finishing technique that was used on Halibel, it didn't actually kill her - just more or less kept her... "on ice"... no pun intended... And she was practically fine when Wonderweiss shattered the ice around her.

I see no reason why he couldn't mend or protect himself with darkness and destroy it from the inside.

the snow is more of a seal for anything as it renders the opponent immobile to cause a sure kill. and the reason why with darkness is because of two simple facts.

A: Toshiro while he is trapped by the snow with his darkness surrounding him can walts up to him and flash freeze him with a swing.

B: simply render him immobile with his ice dragon.

Furthermore, as I've shown just how much he scales above Galand.... I could clear the range of his finisher with ease.(Below a simple jump escaped Merlin's range of 186 miles.)

may i ask why scaling to galand is relevant? he was getting bullied by a base form meliodas in speed.

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hes also able to fight on par with harribel, whos vastly superior in strength then the previous espada from 4 and up.

This is another point that's not quite true. While Toshiro was fighting her, she almost always had the upper hand and it was an uphill battle for Toshiro

it was never a uphill battle for toshiro as you are describing. it was said they were fighting on even ground.

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until he used his final move which caught her off-guard more than anything else. Hell, she didn't even have a scratch on her by the end of their fight despite Toshiro sustaining a good chunk of damage and exhausting himself.

well, mind showing me where toshiro was hurt besides his ice. they both were on the even fight as i shown, even when they done resurrection and bankai. also, she saw the attack coming and failed to counter, hince your conclusion of off guard is folly.

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Not only this but even after being freed from the ice, Halibel was still able to keep fighting him plus 2 of the Vizards helping him in a 3v1.

thinking the vizards are upon the same caliber as toshiro is funny, plus neither toshiro or her took any heavy damage though that fight, so i don't see your point.

Even further, Toshiro didn't even beat her in the end - she has struck down by Aizen. So really, Toshiro =/= Halibel.

that kind of conclusion is folly. estarossa never actually killed mel so Estarossa=/= mel. that kinda logic does not make much sense in hindsight as both toshiro and her were about equal during there battle. not to mention he got DRASTICALLY stronger in the war arc.

Speed:

Gin claims that his sword can extend itself up to 13 km (8.1 miles) at 500 times the speed of sound: exactly 171,500 meters (106.6 miles) per second in order to arrive at its full length in under 0.08 seconds, this is easily above the speed of lightning by several times.

That's about double-ish a bolt of lightning. Still, not out of range. As I showed in my initial post and brought up again in the above Strength post, Galand can clear 186 miles before Merlin can even use her spell on him(the same Merlin who herself is a lightning-timer). And Estarossa stopped a Meliodas who was blitzing that same Galand.

you realize this was SS arc toshiro, not his EOS counterpart. even so, Toshiro scales above that feat several times over.

hes also able o use shunpo, which enables him to move faster then his own insane movement speed, to appear behind the third before she could turn and react.

He landed one clean hit on her the entire fight - and she broke out of it.

reread the fight and my post. they were equal ground, plus shunpo increases the normal movement speed, which is insane as they were fighting on equal terms a while ago.

this gerard is so fast, that he can blitz shinji, byakuya and multiple high level shinigami casually without effort. thoses captains being several times faster then lightning by 40X.

This is just a complete lie. His only real speed-feat is reacting to Kenpachi. Everyone else he fought had context.

Shinji was trying to get to and save Hinamori:

ok? how is having a directive suppose to interfere with speed?

Hits Hiori as she's firing cero at him while she's providing a distraction for the others to attack:

gerard was able to slap away the cero so why bring it up?

He attacked the other Vizards while under cover of their attacks:

that scan is gerard slapping away ken, not the vizords.

He has not blitz'd anyone, even once.

not only is that wrong, but he scales massively above the femritters in terms of speed. as one of the weakest was able to dodge the light of Alw

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he was still able to blitz ken as you said, which ken comes out at a massive sub rel mark, so why would him not blitzing matter when hes already so massively faster?

well anyway, this should be focusing on toshiros speed, which can be equal to byakuya or kenpachi.

Durability:

this is impressive due to the third scaling above ulq in first release by in verse scaling.

he shielded himself with his wing and the wing shattered as a result. Toshiro himself didn't really get hit by it.

true, but it shows the durability of his wings in a much weakened form.

hes also able to survive having his entire left leg and arm cut off by Aizen.

Having your limbs cut off is not a durability feat. That's more of pain tolerance or endurance feat.

quite true. i put it in with the concept of endurance.

hes also able to endure a burner finger two which caused a massive explosion.

That attack from Bazz B left him on death's door. Until he got his bankai back(which fixed his wounds - that's what the ice around his body is there for), he was basically waiting to be killed.

while true, he did not die instantly, which is impressive in itself. also you forgot him taking a burner finger one to the chest. also forgot to add a bit of theses bits, like tanking multiple slashes.

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or surviving the first burner finger.

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hes also able to tank a massive swing from giga giant Gerard without much damage.

Okay, now we have something he was directly hit by and didn't kill him. However, it certainly left him in a sorry state where he had to be saved by Byakuya. Good thing his bankai matured afterward though.

very true, but you forgot the other things i brought up.

Skill:

i find it hard for toshiro to lose as he can simply make a plan for estarossa and act accordingly for a easy win.

A lot of the instances you posted are just their opponents being careless against basic things.

false, i posted proof of why he can. you failed to disprove any of them as shown here and simple said they were careless.

Counter Counters:

nice feat honestly, but should this be a durability feat, not a strength feat?

Could work for both, honestly.

ok.

he scales above him physically. and there isnt really any proof atm from you to say estarossa could tank the same attack.

That statement contradicts itself. You say he scales above him physically, but there's no proof he can't handle an attack Meliodas can at this stage? Estarossa has more raw physical power than Meliodas, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to physically handle an attack Meliodas can.

are there any feats to suggest he can? cause thats what im looking for.

is there a feat for that for the manga? also what attack potency do you put the arcs?

Yep, I just had the video at the time so it was faster. Here's the manga scans:

As for their potency, they'd have to be much more than their Omega's since the Commandments tanked them:

As for Elizabeth, on the panel you can see it smacking him through some mountains. The only other instance of her actually attacking with it was against an early Demon King-Possessed Zeldris:

so all around, it should be about muti mountain in power yeah?

a weakened escanor from the part of day, plus he didn't really damage him, but made escanor feel slightly inconvence due to being knocked around.

He wasn't weakened, he had a pretty sizable chunk of his power considering it was near noon at the time. He still smacked him around quite a bit, which is still very impressive since Galand couldn't even budge him.

yes its impressive, but not as far as you made it out to be.

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as seen, he really wasn't able, even if he did smack him down, cause any meaniful damage to him.

Very good feat, but still below Toshiro cutting gerards sword.

Already addressed this under Toshiro's strength.

already countered it.

Speed:

ok? how is that above this?

The point was to set a precedent and then build on it, you didn't need to address every instance of the build-up. lol. The gist of that section relating to Meliodas was to show how fast he was before any of his upgrades. Then, display how that speed was child's play to Galand as well as how the Meliodas that Estarossa intercepted was vastly faster than Galand to the point he couldn't even see Meliodas' movements.

i see, well my apologies to my head on approach. but it still seems rather slow in comparison.

cool. but still below gerard blitzing captains several times faster then that and toshiro blitzing said gerard before he could react.

Already addressed this in Toshiro's speed.

already countered.

escanor isnt really a speedster as escanor is about the same speed as meliodas, but stronger. idk why blocking a attack from him is good.

The point was to establish he's solidly in their speed tier with multiple showings against different people.

i suppose, but you got to understand on just how fast they are in comparison. toshiro was able to keep up with his other two captains who already are at sub rel speeds.

Darkness:

Cool! im not sure that'll stop him from getting flash frozen.

The majority of characters that Toshiro has "flash frozen" ended up being fine. Halibel literally wasn't even damaged. Anyway, I see no reason that Estarossa couldn't use his darkness to fix himself up or break out of it seeing as he's been able to rejuvenate himself from destruction on a molecular level:

the reason most were fine was because of outside help, which you failed to understand. and the hailbel argument is null considering she also required help. anyway, being able to rejuvenate himself from molecular level isnt gonna do much if it just stops his movements. Also to put into sight is toshiro able to seal abilities as well.

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all shinigamis can fly so..

Just had to be said, otherwise, a flight vs grounded argument could be made.

ok, fair enough.

while impressive, i need to know the temp of said fire, cause if its below 5,000,00 or even even to that, its gonna be trapped.

Already addressed that Toshiro uses special ice that he's not good and making without help above.

already disproved.

Regardless, Purgatory Flames are capable of burning things otherwise unburnable.

Example here, with fodder Demons raizing the Fairy King Forest which is immune to fire:

so very dangerous. ok, i shall retract my statement on sealing his fire with normal means, but in his adult, that is no problem as i shown.

good thing black out can be overpowered by beings stronger then them, which is where this comes in.

As I've shown so far, Toshiro really isn't above him - much less to the point that Toshiro could be unaffected by his abilities.

allready disproved why, and you forgot my other statement of his 7 miles worth of water to use as his weapon. and as i stated, i fail to see how he can black out 7 miles worth of sky.

Furthermore, some things to keep in mind are:

  • Toshiro is cautious by nature. He's not going to go into these big finisher moves from the get-go.

never said he was.

  • He'd most likely try and test his opponent out - especially someone like Estarossa who would have a bizarre energy composition even by Bleach standards.

yes he shall, but you got to understand toshiro allso understands when to go bankai unlike other captains when he feels threatened.

  • Toshiro's fully matured Bankai takes time to activate, it's not a power he can draw upon immediately. This fight could end long before that chance even arises.

very false on the match ending before toshiro uses adult as i proven in my speed and strength arguments and counters. you also forgot several of his abilities to prolong the fight to cause his adult transformation, like his mist, his traps, his snow and his clones.

In short:

  • Estarossa should be plenty powerful enough to take Toshiro down.

disproved false, although they should be very similar in strength in base.

  • A lot of the statements shown so far are not quite accurate with some being completely false.

already shown why the statements make sense and are accurate, along with the things you chose to deem as false.

  • Toshiro is by no means so fast that this becomes one-sided.

Toshiro does hold the speed advantage as i allready proved.

Conclusion

as i original statement stands.

Toshiro is stronger and has the physicals to keep up with estarossa.

Toshiro is faster then him by a slight margin.

toshiro has more uses in attacks and can overwhelm him with his techniques.

toshiro is way smarter and more tactical that he can come up with plans to deal with anything he throws at him.

Toshiro can simply go adult if he feels threatened and end it in four seconds

and as i said, the winner of this match still goes to toshiro.

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@rikuyamaha: lol. Didn't even see the last post, just had page open while at work

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@menos_kegare: i am up to my final counter tbh. you have 1 more counter and a final.

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You work fast Riku 0.0......I'll read the whole thing when I get home lol

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#37  Edited By Menos_Kegare
No Caption Provided

Responses:

while yes he did create many layers of ice, but i said no where it tanked as you implied. and while he needed a bit of her help, this does not change the fact a few moments after he was able to do the same thing in sealing him for a moment.

Fair enough. Sealing him? You mean the ice structure he vaporated in the next scan, which I also posted?

No Caption Provided

As I said, that ice he used to block Bazz B was a special case and not something he's good at by himself.

of course it was, but not instantly, as you were implying with the dark flames.

I never said it was going to completely nullify your ice. If you look at my post again, I said the Hellfire was going to be used as a buffer against you - to weaken your ice and keep moisture levels down.

its clearly shown he had to swing and make contact with it before it hit him. because if he froze it before it hit him, it would of been frozen and toshiro would not of had to swing his sword like he does in the pic.

No, actually it's not. We see the blade swinging down at him, and the next panel shows the sword already frozen and sliced through. We don't see the instance between the two, and other feats imply that Toshiro is not Gerard's physical equal - which supports that he froze the blade before slicing it through.

i know his form was never revealed, but going lore wise and by statements, she should be equal to his first form in base, as even similar in power with the sexta, grimmjow was able to fodderize the former without much effort in base. although i will not say its equivalent in strength, it should be noted due to the similarity in power, the higher number should note to be the stronger then the former.

Good, so we can accept Segunda Etapa is not in the Espada ranks calculations.

Base Grimmjow > Base Luppi. Luppi was just a replacement for the 'Aspect of Death' Grimmjow represented, and a clearly temporary one seeing as Aizen got Orihime and used her to heal him.

Furthermore, that was Luppi directly after the fight with Toshiro - he was injured. Something Aizen stated beforehand.

I could bring in him fighting Grimmjow in CFYOW, but it's difficult to say just how much of a 'boost' he got from Mayuri.

1: because it would be attacking another capt and that would of caused more inconvenience.

2: because ken wanted to fight gerard himself.

3: he still froze his way out of that you know.

Kenpachi directly says he could have killed him, which is believable.

Still easily smacked him away.

He didn't overpower him though, nor did he escape by his own power there. Gerard's hand froze by touching him but still held him in his grip regardless.

and maybe you forgot, but toshiro was able to slightly parry a full swing from gerard in a weaker form.

If you look at that scan again, you see that Toshiro isn't parrying the blade. The blade struck into the building beside him, with the depth of the blade going far below him.

and for the ignoring part, that is wrong. even before he done that move, luppi was going to get serious as with this panel.

This is not wrong. Luppi ignored him and got immobilized by his ice. Toshiro then attacked him. The scan below shows that he had his limbs frozen and rooted in place.

No Caption Provided

the snow is more of a seal for anything as it renders the opponent immobile to cause a sure kill. and the reason why with darkness is because of two simple facts.

A: Toshiro while he is trapped by the snow with his darkness surrounding him can walts up to him and flash freeze him with a swing.

B: simply render him immobile with his ice dragon.

may i ask why scaling to galand is relevant? he was getting bullied by a base form meliodas in speed.

1. If Estarossa is shielding himself with his darkness, you're not actually freezing him. He's still plenty capable of shattering your ice in such a manner.

2. Again, not something he can't handle.

As for Galand, please notice the miles he jumped. The best feat you have it reacting to Gin's sword. The casual jump of Galand dwarfs that

Gin claims that his sword can extend itself up to 13 km (8.1 miles) at 500 times the speed of sound: exactly 171,500 meters (106.6 miles) per second in order to arrive at its full length in under 0.08 seconds, this is easily above the speed of lightning by several times.

That's just under double your best speed feat. What's more, this Galand was still slower than Meliodas and the others who Estarossa can outspeed and/or contend with.

well, mind showing me where toshiro was hurt besides his ice. they both were on the even fight as i shown, even when they done resurrection and bankai. also, she saw the attack coming and failed to counter, hince your conclusion of off guard is folly.

It was not even. She held the upper hand the entire fight, he was more or less on the defensive all fight. Though, looking back, I suppose this was more apparent in the anime rather than the few panels the manga shows.

The second point, you're referring to the wrong section of being off-guard. I meant that the finisher, the Ice Flowers, and their effect is what caught her off guard. Not his shunpo strike.

thinking the vizards are upon the same caliber as toshiro is funny, plus neither toshiro or her took any heavy damage though that fight, so i don't see your point.

I never said they were on the same level as Toshiro. However, they're nothing to laugh at either. The fact she can still combat Toshiro plus 2 more combatants proves she's above Toshiro by himself.

you realize this was SS arc toshiro, not his EOS counterpart. even so, Toshiro scales above that feat several times over.

Except that he really doesn't, and it's still your best quantifiable feat.

ok? how is having a directive suppose to interfere with speed?

Hits Hiori as she's firing cero at him while she's providing a distraction for the others to attack:

gerard was able to slap away the cero so why bring it up?

He attacked the other Vizards while under cover of their attacks:

that scan is gerard slapping away ken, not the vizords.

He was on his belly trying to pull up Hinamori and Gerard comes in to attack him while he's doing that. Do I really need to explain how this isn't a valid speed argument for combat?

She launched a Cero at him while remaining stationary. He hit a literal sitting duck, which was part of her plan, to begin with.

.... I'm sorry, did you click the wrong one and get mixed up? I checked my post again to make sure, but it is the scans of him vs the Vizards.

not only is that wrong, but he scales massively above the femritters in terms of speed. as one of the weakest was able to dodge the light of Alw

Um, proof? They're more hax, and individually have traits that put them above the others. Sure.

Even being faster than the Femritter's isn't that good. Dodging the light of Aschwallen isn't quite quantifiable. Furthermore, the best speed feats they have are lightning timing. Not only this, but their weapon arsenals are actually below the speed of lightning which would imply they don't actively fight at those speeds either.

Referencing Candice's attacks:

Although it is far slower than an actual lightning strike, this arrowhead of reishi still came flying at a rate worthy enough to be called 'lightning speed'.

Bleach, Can't Fear Your Own World

As the only attack she had being legit lightning timing was her Electrocution:

With those brutal words, small bolts of lightning extended into the sky from her raised hand - a genuine lightning strike not entangled in an arrow came rushing down towards Ginjo and the others with a thunderous rumble.

Bleach, Can't Fear Your Own World

Feats that you claim are already below Gin's sword extending.

As a side note, it appears to me people greatly overestimate just how much stronger Sternritter are compared to the Espada/Arrancar. There's actually a much smaller gap than people would like to think once you get down to it.

he was still able to blitz ken as you said, which ken comes out at a massive sub rel mark, so why would him not blitzing matter when hes already so massively faster?

You keep using blitz. These are not blitz. Gerard clashed swords with him at a speed more-or-less equal to him.

Kenpachi also isn't known for his extraordinary speed, with only a few meaningful speed feats in canon.

while true, he did not die instantly, which is impressive in itself. also you forgot him taking a burner finger one to the chest. also forgot to add a bit of theses bits, like tanking multiple slashes.

You're right, he didn't die instantly. However, to say he was still good to go... is far from the truth without plot intervening.

Taking multiple slashes from an arrancar vastly weaker than people here is... not worth talking about tbh. Again, that's just more showings for pain endurance if anything.

But since this is something you keep bringing up, Estarossa can also use his Darkness to corrupt Toshiro:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Albeit Tarmiel/Sariel's Light naturally counters it.

false, i posted proof of why he can. you failed to disprove any of them as shown here and simple said they were careless.

I mean, they really were though. Yukio couldn't notice that Toshiro was leading the monsters he summoned to him? He went off monologing and didn't pay attention to the fight at hand. That is literally him being careless.

so all around, it should be about muti mountain in power yeah?

Elizabeth's? Sounds right.

However, Tarmiel and Sariel launched quite a barrage of them at him. So it's still quite impressive.

the reason most were fine was because of outside help, which you failed to understand. and the hailbel argument is null considering she also required help. anyway, being able to rejuvenate himself from molecular level isnt gonna do much if it just stops his movements. Also to put into sight is toshiro able to seal abilities as well.

Perhaps I worded this badly. Estarossa can use his Darkness as a shield to prevent him from being frozen in the first place. Even further, the only one she didn't break out of was his finisher. I see no reason why Estarossa couldn't break out of any of the others with his raw power.

In addition, he can erupt Hellfire all over himself as well to assist in this countermeasure.

No Caption Provided

Toshiro is only able to 'seal abilities' in a mature form of his bankai that takes time to activate.

very false on the match ending before toshiro uses adult as i proven in my speed and strength arguments and counters. you also forgot several of his abilities to prolong the fight to cause his adult transformation, like his mist, his traps, his snow and his clones.

From what I've seen, it's very likely Estarossa could end the fight before Toshiro has a chance to use his complete Bankai.

As I said previously, Blazehound can be used to dampen your overall ice abilities to make them less effective.

Once more;

  • I should hold the speed advantage.
  • Blazehound will suffice to weaken your ice attacks.
  • Estarossa has the durability and strength to overcome Toshiro.
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I love a quick cav

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I love a quick cav

Ye, we ended up getting it over pretty fast lol. Just closers left I think.

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@menos_kegare: Very nice, i didn't see your post for some reason. i'll have my final post up in a Few hours.

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#42  Edited By RikuYamaha

The Dragons Final Attack.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Thoughts before the final battle.

It was extremely fun CaVing @menos_kegare at this as they were a excellent caving partner. they did Very well in their descriptions and countered neatly. although the counters will be frozen as soon as i Play! >:)

lol, well anyway, it was a pleasure Menos. Glad to have this cav.

Final Counters.

while yes he did create many layers of ice, but i said no where it tanked as you implied. and while he needed a bit of her help, this does not change the fact a few moments after he was able to do the same thing in sealing him for a moment.

Fair enough. Sealing him? You mean the ice structure he vaporated in the next scan, which I also posted?

No Caption Provided

As I said, that ice he used to block Bazz B was a special case and not something he's good at by himself.

Well i did say for a moment anyway. plus bazz did have a little plot armor, but i will not use that as a excuse here. nonetheless, i fail to see how Estarossa could do the same.

-

of course it was, but not instantly, as you were implying with the dark flames.

I never said it was going to completely nullify your ice. If you look at my post again, I said the Hellfire was going to be used as a buffer against you - to weaken your ice and keep moisture levels down.

well i see, sorry upon the sudden outburst but keep the moisture down? i dont think that is going to work considering Toshiros massive Area of water and moisture to pull from.

No Caption Provided

-

its clearly shown he had to swing and make contact with it before it hit him. because if he froze it before it hit him, it would of been frozen and toshiro would not of had to swing his sword like he does in the pic.

No, actually it's not. We see the blade swinging down at him, and the next panel shows the sword already frozen and sliced through. We don't see the instance between the two, and other feats imply that Toshiro is not Gerard's physical equal - which supports that he froze the blade before slicing it through.

that can be interpreted two ways actually. you could say he froze it before it hit him, which is a viable option, but that does not mean the momentum immediately stopped as only the blade froze, not gerards arm. which as newtons first law of motion states and i quote. "Every object in a state of uniform motion will remain in that state of motion unless an external force acts on it." the external force being toshiros blade.

also, i did not say toshiro was on the level of gerard, i was implying he had similar strength to either base or shikai kenpachi in ADULT form.

-

i know his form was never revealed, but going lore wise and by statements, she should be equal to his first form in base, as even similar in power with the sexta, grimmjow was able to fodderize the former without much effort in base. although i will not say its equivalent in strength, it should be noted due to the similarity in power, the higher number should note to be the stronger then the former.

Good, so we can accept Segunda Etapa is not in the Espada ranks calculations.

Base Grimmjow > Base Luppi. Luppi was just a replacement for the 'Aspect of Death' Grimmjow represented, and a clearly temporary one seeing as Aizen got Orihime and used her to heal him.

Furthermore, that was Luppi directly after the fight with Toshiro - he was injured. Something Aizen stated beforehand.

I could bring in him fighting Grimmjow in CFYOW, but it's difficult to say just how much of a 'boost' he got from Mayuri.

i agree on this, so i'll let this argument go.]

-

1: because it would be attacking another capt and that would of caused more inconvenience.

2: because ken wanted to fight gerard himself.

3: he still froze his way out of that you know.

Kenpachi directly says he could have killed him, which is believable.

ken says he can kill anyone, does not really mean he can.

Still easily smacked him away.

they were not even fighting seriously so i dont know why you bring this up.

He didn't overpower him though, nor did he escape by his own power there. Gerard's hand froze by touching him but still held him in his grip regardless.

while true, he was still able to escape due to his ice.

-

and maybe you forgot, but toshiro was able to slightly parry a full swing from gerard in a weaker form.

If you look at that scan again, you see that Toshiro isn't parrying the blade. The blade struck into the building beside him, with the depth of the blade going far below him.

not really, he even says he migrate the damage away from him.

No Caption Provided

-

and for the ignoring part, that is wrong. even before he done that move, luppi was going to get serious as with this panel.

This is not wrong. Luppi ignored him and got immobilized by his ice. Toshiro then attacked him. The scan below shows that he had his limbs frozen and rooted in place.

No Caption Provided

as i shown, he was becoming serious before he done that move.

No Caption Provided

the snow is more of a seal for anything as it renders the opponent immobile to cause a sure kill. and the reason why with darkness is because of two simple facts.

A: Toshiro while he is trapped by the snow with his darkness surrounding him can walts up to him and flash freeze him with a swing.

B: simply render him immobile with his ice dragon.

may i ask why scaling to galand is relevant? he was getting bullied by a base form meliodas in speed.

1. If Estarossa is shielding himself with his darkness, you're not actually freezing him. He's still plenty capable of shattering your ice in such a manner.

how will he shatter the ice?

2. Again, not something he can't handle.

as far as i seen you post, estarossa can not withstand being flash frozen.

As for Galand, please notice the miles he jumped. The best feat you have it reacting to Gin's sword. The casual jump of Galand dwarfs that

best feat? wow, just ignore the gerard and above statements in speed. and jumping a mile in a second isnt really impressive as it maxes out at 1.609 KM/S. below the lightning speed of 320,000,000 ft per second or about 220,000,000 miles per hour.

Gin claims that his sword can extend itself up to 13 km (8.1 miles) at 500 times the speed of sound: exactly 171,500 meters (106.6 miles) per second in order to arrive at its full length in under 0.08 seconds, this is easily above the speed of lightning by several times.

That's just under double your best speed feat. What's more, this Galand was still slower than Meliodas and the others who Estarossa can outspeed and/or contend with.

post above, and Toshiro scales to the other captains in speed, which can be marked out at sub rel.

-

well, mind showing me where toshiro was hurt besides his ice. they both were on the even fight as i shown, even when they done resurrection and bankai. also, she saw the attack coming and failed to counter, hince your conclusion of off guard is folly.

It was not even. She held the upper hand the entire fight

already shown why thats false with facts.

, he was more or less on the defensive all fight. Though, looking back, I suppose this was more apparent in the anime rather than the few panels the manga shows.

the anime drew out the fight, while the manga shown them playing on even ground. i do not see why this is hard to understand.

The second point, you're referring to the wrong section of being off-guard. I meant that the finisher, the Ice Flowers, and their effect is what caught her off guard. Not his shunpo strike.

i shown why that is false as well with this as she saw the flowers coming.

No Caption Provided

thinking the vizards are upon the same caliber as toshiro is funny, plus neither toshiro or her took any heavy damage though that fight, so i don't see your point.

I never said they were on the same level as Toshiro. However, they're nothing to laugh at either. The fact she can still combat Toshiro plus 2 more combatants proves she's above Toshiro by himself.

fighting people below another does not mean shes above toshiro. thats a abc fallacy. its saying since A can beat B, that also means A can beat C. which is wrong due to evidence.

-

you realize this was SS arc toshiro, not his EOS counterpart. even so, Toshiro scales above that feat several times over.

Except that he really doesn't, and it's still your best quantifiable feat.

shown false. posts above disprove you.

-

ok? how is having a directive suppose to interfere with speed?

Hits Hiori as she's firing cero at him while she's providing a distraction for the others to attack:

still dont see how that is suppose to interfere.

-

gerard was able to slap away the cero so why bring it up?

He attacked the other Vizards while under cover of their attacks:

again, why is this brung up when he simply slapped it away.

-

that scan is gerard slapping away ken, not the vizords.

He was on his belly trying to pull up Hinamori and Gerard comes in to attack him while he's doing that. Do I really need to explain how this isn't a valid speed argument for combat?

She launched a Cero at him while remaining stationary. He hit a literal sitting duck, which was part of her plan, to begin with.

he was able to see and casually intercept the cero while said stationary. again, why bring it up.

-

not only is that wrong, but he scales massively above the femritters in terms of speed. as one of the weakest was able to dodge the light of Alw

Um, proof? They're more hax, and individually have traits that put them above the others. Sure.

a much weakened Ken was able to blitz candice a bit in a much weaker form.

No Caption Provided

this is impressive as gerard can keep up with a much more battle ready ken/

No Caption Provided

Even being faster than the Femritter's isn't that good. Dodging the light of Aschwallen isn't quite quantifiable. Furthermore, the best speed feats they have are lightning timing.

very wrong there. they scale massively above that considering they are massive above SS ichigo, who is allready lightning timer.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Not only this, but their weapon arsenals are actually below the speed of lightning which would imply they don't actively fight at those speeds either.

proven false.

Referencing Candice's attacks:

Although it is far slower than an actual lightning strike, this arrowhead of reishi still came flying at a rate worthy enough to be called 'lightning speed'.

Bleach, Can't Fear Your Own World

As the only attack she had being legit lightning timing was her Electrocution:

With those brutal words, small bolts of lightning extended into the sky from her raised hand - a genuine lightning strike not entangled in an arrow came rushing down towards Ginjo and the others with a thunderous rumble.

Bleach, Can't Fear Your Own World

Feats that you claim are already below Gin's sword extending.

already proven this entire section wrong with the SS ichigo lightning speed.

As a side note, it appears to me people greatly overestimate just how much stronger Sternritter are compared to the Espada/Arrancar. There's actually a much smaller gap than people would like to think once you get down to it.

there really isn't...even fodder like giselle can take on three arrancar with normal difficulty.

-

he was still able to blitz ken as you said, which ken comes out at a massive sub rel mark, so why would him not blitzing matter when hes already so massively faster?

You keep using blitz. These are not blitz. Gerard clashed swords with him at a speed more-or-less equal to him.

i really should reword but yeah, they should be equal in speed.

Kenpachi also isn't known for his extraordinary speed, with only a few meaningful speed feats in canon.

although hes not known for his speed doesn't mean he isnt extremely fast. case in point with a weakened ken being able to surprise the fastest femritter.

-

while true, he did not die instantly, which is impressive in itself. also you forgot him taking a burner finger one to the chest. also forgot to add a bit of theses bits, like tanking multiple slashes.

You're right, he didn't die instantly. However, to say he was still good to go... is far from the truth without plot intervening.

true. but its still a good endurance feat.

Taking multiple slashes from an arrancar vastly weaker than people here is... not worth talking about tbh. Again, that's just more showings for pain endurance if anything.

its more of tanking slashes then anything, anyway, hes still able to endure this.

No Caption Provided

But since this is something you keep bringing up, Estarossa can also use his Darkness to corrupt Toshiro:

Albeit Tarmiel/Sariel's Light naturally counters it.

while a plausible idea, he'll have to hit him first, in which the feats i shown is not gonna be possible. and even if he gets close, he will get flash frozen with a swing as i shown, which estarossa has no feats to suggest he could withstand.

No Caption Provided

-

false, i posted proof of why he can. you failed to disprove any of them as shown here and simple said they were careless.

I mean, they really were though. Yukio couldn't notice that Toshiro was leading the monsters he summoned to him? He went off monologing and didn't pay attention to the fight at hand. That is literally him being careless.

and do you know why? cause toshiro was playing mind games with him to cause him to monologue.

-

so all around, it should be about muti mountain in power yeah?

Elizabeth's? Sounds right.

However, Tarmiel and Sariel launched quite a barrage of them at him. So it's still quite impressive.

well thats good, but even muti mountain types swings or attacks can be frozen by toshiro as shown.

No Caption Provided

-

the reason most were fine was because of outside help, which you failed to understand. and the hailbel argument is null considering she also required help. anyway, being able to rejuvenate himself from molecular level isnt gonna do much if it just stops his movements. Also to put into sight is toshiro able to seal abilities as well.

Perhaps I worded this badly. Estarossa can use his Darkness as a shield to prevent him from being frozen in the first place.

may i have feats of his darkness shielding himself from anything like toshiros flash freeze? and as far as i know, his fire and his dark are not the same.

Even further, the only one she didn't break out of was his finisher. I see no reason why Estarossa couldn't break out of any of the others with his raw power.

because of his lack of feats to suggest he could.

-

In addition, he can erupt Hellfire all over himself as well to assist in this countermeasure.

plausible idea, but i doubt he could do that before he gets immediately frozen by a swing.

-

Toshiro is only able to 'seal abilities' in a mature form of his bankai that takes time to activate.

and as i said, he has enough time to do so.

-

very false on the match ending before toshiro uses adult as i proven in my speed and strength arguments and counters. you also forgot several of his abilities to prolong the fight to cause his adult transformation, like his mist, his traps, his snow and his clones.

From what I've seen, it's very likely Estarossa could end the fight before Toshiro has a chance to use his complete Bankai.

his clones can provide assistance to help him, his mist, his traps, his snow and his mist, as i already said will prolong the fight until toshiro can access mature bankai.

As I said previously, Blazehound can be used to dampen your overall ice abilities to make them less effective.

as i allready mentioned, i doubt the blaze can suck up all the moister in a seven mile radius before toshiro can enter adult and one shot.

Once more;

  • I should hold the speed advantage.

already shown false.

  • Blazehound will suffice to weaken your ice attacks.

it may weaken it, but it will not take away the overall effect.

  • Estarossa has the durability and strength to overcome Toshiro.

they are about equal in strength but his durability does not suggest he can tank becoming flash froze to the core.

Final conclusion

Toshiro holds the advantage in speed and technique to keep up with estarossa and freeze him.

Toshiro holds the advantage in attack potency as his overall overwhelming attacks can overwhelm estarossa before going adult.

Toshiro has the means to prolong the fight until he goes adult.

once Adult, in four seconds, Toshiro can simply freeze him with absolute zero and render all of his abilities null.

The true winner of this match up is Toshiro.

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RikuYamaha

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No Caption Provided

For this last post, I won't really address everything in your last counter. At this point, I'd be more or less restating points. So I'll just leave them as it is and let the voters decide for themselves who they think is correct based on the arguments.

That said, I only have a few things to really mention out of it.

not really, he even says he migrate the damage away from him.

That scan was referring to him freezing the portion of the city from falling on the Seireitei.

may i have feats of his darkness shielding himself from anything like toshiros flash freeze? and as far as i know, his fire and his dark are not the same.

I believe I already showed Estarossa using his darkness to shield against Escanor's extreme heat. Cold is just the opposite side of the same spectrum, so I see no reason why it couldn't shield him from your ice.

best feat? wow, just ignore the gerard and above statements in speed. and jumping a mile in a second isnt really impressive as it maxes out at 1.609 KM/S. below the lightning speed of 320,000,000 ft per second or about 220,000,000 miles per hour.

I've already stated that I don't agree with Gerard's speed. That said, you seem to be missing something with this feat. He did not jump a mile in that jump. He cleared 186 miles, which far surpasses Gin's shikai.

And yes, this is his best quantifiable feat - and a feat often brought up to display Ichigo's speed, whose entire bankai is speed-oriented. And this feat was done by him while FKT arc was in it's final stages. Whether you want to say Toshiro improved massively or not isn't up for debate; the levels they sit at haven't changed as drastically as people think. I don't want to bring up new scans, as that's cheap in a final post, but the previous quotes talking about Candice's speed are a good example of this. Whether or not you want to accept it, it's stated that her main attacks aren't lightning speed. People like to talk about Sternritter's fighting captains but fail to mention certain Sternritter's also having trouble or beaten by lieutenants. In all honesty, Sternritter's aren't much better than the Arrancar/Espada.(I actually kind of want to make a thread/blog about this topic tbh)

In addition, the "lightning speed" mention you have for Ichigo is a hyperbole. He has feats that are above that, yes. But those are are a one-off in the SS arc and then legitimate showings at the end of FKT Arc. The fact we have quotes stating that Candice's attacks are far slower than lightning further proves that there are people who are still below lightning speed.

Furthermore, there's very little to indicate Toshiro vastly improved his stats - at least to the point you could scale him to be so massively superior to his SS version. At most, the thing he said he trained/developed most were his zanpakuto's powers - such as trying to better his fighting abilities with little ice or furthering the powers of his bankai.

fighting people below another does not mean shes above toshiro. thats a abc fallacy. its saying since A can beat B, that also means A can beat C. which is wrong due to evidence.

Still, to try and dismiss them is kinda wrong. They're still pretty respectable in strength, being from a group of former Lieutenants and captains and only got stronger with their training and mastery of hollowfication.

In conclusion, Estarossa can take Toshiro out.

  • His speed should be above Toshiro's quantifiable feats.
  • His raw strength should also surpass him, if not at least be equal.
  • Full Counter nullifies any attacks if they come to physical blows.
  • Hellflames can be used to dampen and counter Hitsugaya's ice.
  • Darkness can be used to shield himself should worst come to worst.

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Menos_Kegare

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Wasn't all that close. I'm voting for @menos_kegare for just...having a more solid argument. Both of you presented your side well initially, but when it came to counters, it felt like Menos had more and better counters, and more importantly, could counter the counters to defend Estarossa.

From what was shown, I was convinced Esta has the physical advantage (might even be by a lot) and his fire should protect from Toshiro's ice.

So yeah, winner is Menos.

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Menos_Kegare

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