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Avatar image for co-boss
#51 Posted by Co-Boss (433 posts) - - Show Bio

Man, I wish more Cavs don't come from deep arguments from other threads bc people just keep on insulting each other when they start the cav. Very little honor and respect in some recent Cavs.

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#52 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@ruthlesskiller said:

@batmanplusjay:

Yeah. I feel that I can confidently say this isn't what I or anybody else was expecting. For the sake of not repeating myself several times, I will be tackling the major claims you are making for each section. This is to mostly preserve my sanity and that of the audience.

To the best of your limited knowledge, Sasuke < Toneri < KCM Sage Mode Naruto. The fact you think you contain any level of sanity is impressive on its own.

Chakra Absorption:

I don't have any proof but this should be common sense. Even if that doesn't convince you, it's still a fact that sasuke will have all his chakra absorbed in a few seconds by either one of these jutsu.

Then don't talk to me about this until you have proof. I'm tired of you and your shitty assumptions, thinking you can combat irrefutable facts with assumptions and logic that don't even make sense, yet you have the audacity to talk like you're speaking "facts".

Naruto was not in base form the second time he had his chakra absorbed, And he wasn't caught off guard, he was looking at toneri and before he knew what happened, toneri was absorbing his chakra. Also, you assume that sasuke will not act like Naruto and try to block LRE(the only one thrown), when he doesn't even know what it is and what it does.

He won't act like Naruto did because he isn't Naruto. So you're telling me your entire argument based around Sasuke maybe getting hit by this attack is the very low possibility of Sasuke trying to combat/tank it? Sasuke won't do that, he has too many options to choose something so direct.

Puppet reincarnation doesn't depend on speed(It is held in the user's hand and is long range), LRE is slow but sasuke doesn't know what it is and as such is as likely to tank it as he is to dodge it.

So you're making a hypothetical situation for Sasuke losing that might not even happen. And like I said, Sasuke has plenty of options when faced with that attack, therefore the likelihood of him choosing to tank it further lessens.

(EDIT) You can't prove a point by a bunch of "maybe this maybe that", you need proof. And you don't got that. I proved sasuke has multiple counters for this attack, you can't disregard it because you think there's a small chance of him blocking it anyway. That's not fact, it's speculation.

As for amenotejikara, sasuke does not use the jutsu that way. He only teleports himself, his allies, and his jutsu. Why? Because of strategy.

He uses it however he sees fit. He has teleported his enemies before(when he teleported Madara inbetween him and Naruto and attempted to seal him with Naruto's magnetic rasengan) and he will have no issue doing it again. And what you're telling me is you have no definitive reasons for why Toneri's slow attacks will actually hit Sasuke, only that you hope that Sasuke will stand there and combat it rather than dodge it. So your entire foundation is on a small possibility rather than facts, like the fact that Sasuke would horribly blitz Toneri or the fact that a simple teleport + chidori would get the job done?

Sasuke teleporting toneri's chakra draining jutsu, when he doesn't know what they do is OOC for him. Also, sasuke has never teleported an enemy's jutsu to hit the enemy. More OOC'ness from what my opponent is suggesting.

Whether Sasuke does or doesn't know what a jutsu does is irrelevant to whether he'll teleport/dodge it. He does what he feels the situation calls for.

And as far as Sasuke not using his rinnegan to hit the enemy with their own jutsu..

He teleports Momoshiki into his own jutsu
He teleports Momoshiki into his own jutsu

Also, toneri controls the jutsu with his thoughts and chooses who he wants the jutsu to absorb chakra from. It's not going to absorb his chakra because he doesn't want it to.

Proof.

Gravity manipulation:

His gravity manipulation will destroy sasuke's susanoo, flying or not.

So he'll do something to Sasuke that he couldn't even do to a weakened Naruto? Talk about out of character. But I supposed whether OOC is relevant just depends on whether it's convenient for you or not.

Oh and I want to see proof of his gravity manipulation destroying anything on the level of Sasuke's Susano'o.

He can use it like shinra tensei to push the the susano'o away and damage it like pain did to konoha and the gama trio and toneri's did to Naruto during his wedding,

Which did absolutely nothing to base Naruto. Lmao. It won't effect a Susnao'o(let alone Sasuke himself) if it couldn't do anything but push a base Naruto.

he can bombard the purple construct with rocks like he was doing to Naruto and his golem(controlled by him and using his power) was doing to the kurama construct.

Oh so the Perfect Susano'o that goes toe to toe with Naruto's Kurama avatar and destroys entire meteors will be taken down by rocks it can easily tank and destroy? Ok.

Toneri can also use it like a chibaku tensei and cover the susano'o in millions of tons of rock. This is all assuming sasuke even enters susano'.

Who'd have known Perfect Susnao'o was rock level. And not only does Susano'o counter this ridiculously weak attack, a simple almighty push would handle it.

Sensing:

Toneri fought Naruto for one hour, that's enough of a counter for this.

Toneri fought a KCM Sage Mode Naruto for one hour. Which is a garbage feat for someone who is going to fight Sasuke. Honestly I refuse to believe you're this incompetent.

I'm beginning to doubt if you continued watching the series after the war arc. First of all, not all otsutsuki have TSB's, secondly chakra rods are things rinnegan users can produce, and lastly, kaguya has six paths senjutsu. She is the juubi and being the juubi jinchuuriki grants you six paths senjutsu.

What I stated there was pure speculation on things I already stated I vaguely remember and haven't watched in years, I never said it was a fact or that it should be taken as such. But Toneri getting bodied by a KCM Sage Mode Naruto suggests 1 of 2 things;

  • Naruto is just far stronger than what a SPSM could grant
  • Toneri doesn't have SPSM

Whichever one you choose to go with doesn't matter to me, because the end result is the same, Sasuke is stronger than Toneri.

Sasuke only hit Naruto once in that fight.

Ikr. That's why they both left the fight beaten to shit and missing arms, because Sasuke got off 1 lucky attack. You just can't help but make as much sense as a 5 year old trying to talk about politics.

While Naruto was catching a fireball and naruto could still react to sasuke. If not for that fireball, sasuke wouldn't be able to touch Naruto.

Naruto turning around, gasping, then getting karate chopped by a chidori into the lake isn't even close to reacting. And it doesn't take away from the fact that Sasuke can and has gone toe to toe with Naruto in his Bijuu SPSM for hours, Toneri went toe to toe with KCM Sage Mode for an hour and lost horribly.

Honestly, what part of this do you not understand:

Bijuu SPSM Naruto >>>>>>>>>>>>>> KCM Sage Mode(Or BSM, not that it matters) Naruto

KCM Sage Mode(Or BSM, not that it matters) Naruto >>>>>>>>>>> Toneri

And Sasuke is </= Bijuu SPSM Naruto.

Why is that so hard to grasp? Toneri lost to a weaker form of Naruto that Sasuke would've bodied. That alone crushes your case. What you need to do is try your hardest to back up the claim you once made that "Sasuke isn't even base Naruto level"(which you can't) to at least try to make sense of Sasuke somehow by some miracle being weaker than KCM Sage Mode Naruto.

Gudodama(Truth-Seeking Balls):

Naruto and sasuke are allies, therefore Naruto has no reason to use the disintegrating effect of the truth seeker orbs on sasuke,

This is like the 4th Naruto rule you tried to create with absolutely no proof to back it up. Literally moments after being granted six paths chakra and the rinnegan by Hagoromo, Sasuke is seen picking up the chakra rods that pinned edo Tobirama, and Tobirama questioned why he was able to do it without being affected.

Gaining the six paths chakra gave him immunity from being negatively affected by certain things like chakra rods and obviously TSB since he touches those with no consequence as well.
Gaining the six paths chakra gave him immunity from being negatively affected by certain things like chakra rods and obviously TSB since he touches those with no consequence as well.

So I'll ask that you once again prove the source of your bs.

And yes they can be turned on and off, like toneri when he creates a cage for hinata and she is not disintegrated, or obito when he uses the orbs to heal himself.

He manifested it with his chakra to create a bird cage, which is probably why Hinata wasn't affected. And as for Obito healing himself proves nothing except that the orbs can be used to heal the user.

Then look at the image before you jump into conclusions. That is a data book statement supported by the manga.

This proves nothing except that Naruto and Sasuke are far past what SPSM could grant Toneri.

How, when I've just proven that six paths chakra doesn't give you immunity to truth seeker orbs? Ignoring that, what feats does the susano'o have to get past the defense of toneri's TSB?

You haven't proven it. You simply said it, then I disproved it.

Speed/reflexes/reactions:

Sasuke has only ever fought SPSM Naruto once, and a huge majority of the fight was off them in their chakra avatars. The only combat interaction they had was the fireball, where naruto reacted to sasuke's ameno.

Getting hit means you reacted now? And SPSM Naruto was in his Kurama Avatar, which Sasuke literally went blow for blow with. That's literally the same as going toe to toe with Bijuu SPSM, except on a larger scale.

And you are doing the same thing as me except worse, giving SPSM naruto feats to sasuke and justifying that by saying they fight regularly, when they've only fought once, and that fight was mostly in chakra avatars.

Nothing I'm doing is anything like what you're doing, let alone worse. And chakra avatars or not is irrelevant since it's still SPSM being utilized in the chakra avatar, I swear you got the brain power of a skeleton.

Naruto used BSM(with rikudo amp).

KCM Sage Mode, as the novel says, Naruto is in Kurama Chakra Mode and he just added sage mode on top of that. And you keep bringing up that he has a six paths amp like it's relevant. It doesn't change anything since you don't even know how much it increases his stats. With or without the amp Toneri would've gotten bodied by a much weaker Naruto form. You have the constant tendency to bring up irrelevant things and use assumptions and guesses as "valid arguments" because you lack any form of proof to back your statements up.

It is BSM. The slitted pupils and bagua trigram say so. And he's using SPS, evidenced by him flying. You are wrong again.

You didn't prove he was in BSM in the movie, all you proved is that during the war Naruto combined Bijuu mode with Sage mode. But here, it's evident that instead of combining Sage Mode with bijuu mode like he did during the war, Naruto instead combines it with KCM mode since the novel explicitly states he's in KCM. Toad Sage Mode can obviously be combined with Naruto's chakra modes. So whether Naruto is in KCM or Bijuu mode when he combines Toad Sage Mode to it, the "+" sign will still pop up in his eyes since both Bijuu mode and KCM have the vertical slit and toad sage mode adds the horizontal.

So, as the novel states and the movie shows , Naruto was in KCM sage mode. I don't care for your speculation and assumptions, look at the facts put in front of you.

Dude, you haven't provided feats. All you've done is say a bunch of things that have been proven wrong. And it is enough to say that toneri can react to sasuke, especially since sasuke hasn't fought SPSM Naruto more than once, and that was in a chakra avatar for the most part.

I proved everything I ever said. All the arguments you make are based on assumptions and logic more garbage than your debating skills. You constantly claim Sasuke can't go toe to toe with Naruto's SPSM and keep suggesting Sasuke's even weaker than KCM Sage Mode Naruto, but everything that happened in Naruto and Sasuke's last battle and novel scans like this;

No Caption Provided

further contradicts the claims you come up with based off of nothing.

CQC:

Tneri hit Naruto with GWRE, this alone proves this entire point wrong. Watch the video for goodness sake, they were hitting themselves several times in that fight.

He didn't hit Naruto with GWRE. He missed the first time, then got blocked the second.

Toneri went toe to toe with BSM Naruto, who was amped by rikudo chakra. And he was flying, evidence of six paths senjutsu. So again, you are wrong.

He went toe to toe with KCM Sage Mode, as I proved. Naruto flying is just evidence that SPSM has base form amps, like the mastery of all 5 chakra natures, yin/yang, and flying. In your piss poor attempt to try and debunk me, you contradicted yourself since Naruto can't be in BSM while having six paths senjutsu activated at the same time like you're implying.

This is false. Naruto came out of the ground and tried to punch toneri, and toneri dodged it before the rasengan, so no blitz there. An as I've said, watch the video, Naruto and toneri's were hitting each other.

Naruto didn't try to punch Toneri. He came up with his fist out of the ground as a diversion for the rasengan, since if his punch had landed, the rasengan wouldn't have. Therefore Toneri got blitzed. Naruto and Toneri weren't hitting each other, you need to take your own advice and watch the fight for yourself because Toneri never tagged Naruto once that entire fight. And you can't prove he did.

This is untrue, like I've shown.

You mean Toneri missing his GWRE? Lmao

This is absurd, this is like saying that just because Thor has more and better feats than Loki, it doesn't mean Loki is "significantly" weaker than Thor. Feats exist for a reason.

Except the feats between Naruto and Sasuke are relatively close. Thor's and Loki's are a decent distance apart. These situations obviously aren't the same, and I'm tired of explaining the absolute most basic shit to you. But I'll say it again; just because someone has better feats, doesn't mean they're significantly stronger than someone else since, like Naruto and Sasuke, there are feats where one is better than the other by a small gap.

I never meant that. And this is irrelevant, if you can't provide feats for sasuke, just say so. Don't make statements with no basis to stand on.

The irony. Good lord the irony.

Destructive Capacity:

True. LRE uses the victim's chakra, so perhaps the explosion caused by sasuke's Toneri's own chakra will be smaller when Sasuke hit him with his own attack since he has less than Naruto.

Fixed it.

Based on what feats?

Base Hinata, shikamaru and Sai were all in the middle of it and came out just fine.

A lot of statements and no feats to back them up.

I've provided too many feats to back up my claims. You just love your assumptions.

Durability:

No, those rasengans were all naruto's power alone. Sasuke only created the majestic armor susano'o, which only gave Naruto durability and a sword.

Again, the rasengans didn't break it. Sasuke's Susnao'o sword assisting Naruto's Kurama did. The rasengans at best weakened it.
Again, the rasengans didn't break it. Sasuke's Susnao'o sword assisting Naruto's Kurama did. The rasengans at best weakened it.

As I've shown and you refused to acknowledge; a chakra avatar is simply not a significant portion of kurama's reserves.

And as I've shown you, it's still a nerf nonetheless. Calling it 100% when it obviously isn't 100% when a poriton of it is manifesting a Kurama avatar elsewhere, and calling it BSM when I've also proved it's KCM Sage Mode are two signs of your incompetence getting the better of you. I've acknowledged it doesn't take half his chakra, but it is a nerf nonetheless.

It's still the same as saying that guy's final step evening elephant punching juudara's body through the TSB is what broke it. In both cases, both attacks, imparted force on the enemies body, giving it enough momentum to break the highly durable TSB shield. So moot point from you.

Toneri got bruised by a rasengan he had barely blocked, he won't survive a chidori that pierces his chest by a much faster opponent like Sasuke.

Toneri is only as fast as a nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto(But let's just say 100% KCM Sage Mode). Sasuke is able to react to and tag Momoshiki multiple times throughout his fight with him, and Momoshiki is who could go toe to toe against SPSM Naruto:

A nerfed Sasuke has the upper hand in a brief exchange with Momoshiki
A nerfed Sasuke has the upper hand in a brief exchange with Momoshiki

Can effortlessly blind-side Momoshiki, who is leagues above Toneri.
Can effortlessly blind-side Momoshiki, who is leagues above Toneri.

Toneri, by feats, wouldn't have been able to tag fused Momoshiki or keep up with him. Momoshiki is leagues ahead of a KCM Sage Mode Naruto, and that version of Naruto was the highest Toneri could go against.

If Sasuke can effortlessly blindside and get the upper hand on Momoshiki, he would have no issue blitzing and utterly bodying Toneri.

His chidori was equal to naruto's rasengan and guy's final step evening elephant, Toneri tanks it easily.

Toneri is a glass cannon. He got one shotted by a much weaker version of Naruto, and Sasuke's DC is far beyond what KCM Sage Mode Naruto could dish out.

That's not how attack collisions in Naruto work. This is easily proven by Naruto and sasuke's final clash at the VoTE in shippuden, where they both lost their arms. So toneri took direct damage and came out unscathed.

That's exactly how it works. From it being a collision, he's not feeling the full impact. The same reason why Naruto and Sasuke could clash Jutsu like the Indra Arrow he shot and Naruto's 3-headed Kurama double rasenshuriken and not immediately die from the impact. He's experiencing the after effect and from the looks of it in the movie, the after effect doesn't do much.

That proves nothing. What stops him from simply recreating that chakra mode instantly, Like he does when toneri absorbs his chakra again?

This was a misunderstanding. You're right on this particular point.

He didn't dodge it. If he did, why didn't he punch toneri while the latter was cutting the moon? why did he jump out of the crater made by the split moon? Better yet, why don't you prove he dodged it?

Because we didn't see him get hit, he came out of the split with clones prepared like he intended on using them as diversions, and he sustained literally no damage after he shot the beam. Common sense would tell anyone with a brain he dodged it. And he didn't do those other things because he didn't want to. Same reason why at the beginning of the movie Naruto chases Toneri's puppet in base form to save Hinata instead of going KCM off the bat and ending the movie in 15 seconds. Because he wanted to.

No. That's not how it works, sasuke has far lesser chakra than Naruto so he doesn't have the power to do so, and his techniques aren't as destructive as naruto's. So provide feats.

They both are capable of attacks on this scale, and there is a reason they're rivals. He has less DC than Naruto. Not
They both are capable of attacks on this scale, and there is a reason they're rivals. He has less DC than Naruto. Not "far" less.

All you do is exaggerate the truth and lie. Sasuke's weaker than Naruto, so you take it upon yourself to go the extra mile "He's not even base Naruto level" or imply he isn't even KCM Sage Mode Naruto level. Naruto gave 9 Shinobi allies rasengan to hit Juubito's TSB with and you took it upon yourself to say those 9 Rasengan on their own broke it. The bs is real with you.

Which is just a statement. There are different ways of interpreting statements. We don't know if shikamaru was referring to the both of them together,

But according to you, NaRuT0 CaN Bu5T ThE m0oN, so why would he say they both could do something that Naruto could supposedly do on his own?

or if he's talking individually, how long it will take for sasuke to do it, how he would do it, etc.

Not only does that quote say they can destroy the continent, it also implies the very thing you keep refusing to acknowledge. Naruto and Sasuke are close in power. How long someone can do something is irrelevant since it's common sense they could do it in a very short period of time, or even instantly. It'll be nonsensical to try and say they can destroy the continent and then say "Oh nah, give them about a year and they'll have it done". And how he goes about it is irrelevant, the point is he could do it.

Prove it's BS(not that you can) or shut up.

I might use some of that salt and sprinkle it on my fries.

Simple scaling? The kind that goes: sasuke< Naruto, and Naruto's > toneri, so therefore sasuke beats toneri just like that? That's dumb.

I said simple scaling, not borderline autistic scaling.

You haven't proven anything since the beginning of your counter.

Says the guy who starts off his counter with "I dont have proof but..". Lmao, pretty much useless at gathering facts aren't you?

In no way are sasuke and naruto equal at all. Sasuke is far below Naruto. And toneri is above sasuke by feats.

Yeah I forgot Toneri can throw rocks at PS and shoot slow chakra absorbing balls. Why didn't I think of that.

That punch is moon level, nothing to debate.

It isn't. It just stopped a beam that was potent enough to slice a hollow moon. Doesn't make it moon level.

Proved this wrong.

Nah you proved that it wasn't 50% since not every Kurama avatar is -50% of Kurama's chakra. The nerfed KCM Sage Mode argument still stands, and you can't debunk shit.

Counters and Debunks of common arguments used against Toneri:

No, it doesn't. Bring proof that it does or shut up.Flying has only ever been done by Naruto using six paths senjutsu. The last is just one example.

Prove that it does. Keep your 5th grade temper tantrums because I don't care for them. Flying only shown being being used in SPSM =/= Flying can only be used in SPSM. Upon acquiring SPSM we know Naruto got flight as well, and Naruto has been in SPSM for the rest of the war so obviously he flew in SPSM. This doesn't confirm not prove that he can only fly in SPSM or needs SPSM activated to fly. The Last, a canon movie Kishimoto himself wrote, confirms Naruto can fly while not in SPSM since we see him flying in KCM Sage Mode. Literally all the facts contradict your assumptions, which honestly I'm getting sick and tired of seeing.

Right now all the factual proof contradicts you, which leaves you to prove that he does need SPSM activated to fly, but you can't prove it. So save the bs for something else and don't talk to me about this unless you got facts to back you up.

It is relevant because having the chakra of all tailed beasts is one way of gaining six paths senjutsu. The proof of this is in shikamaru shinden.

It's one way of getting SPSM, not the only way. Obviously Naruto acquired SPSM by different means when he met Hagoromo's spirit when he died. And having all the tailed beast's chakra is irrelevant since flying doesn't need SPSM activated to be used. Therefore yet again your assumption is proven to amount to shit.

Hagoromo only granted Naruto the yang seal and six paths chakra. Hagoromo didn't grant him SPSM like that.

Good lord. Do you hear yourself? Upon being resurrected after meeting with Hagoromo he literally is already in SPSM then go goes on to blitz Madara in SPSM:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Naruto becoming the gathering place of all the jinchuriki didn't happen until just before the fight with Sasuke after they beat Kaguya and Naruto obviously had SPSM way before that. Since he revived by Hagoromo. Naruto wasn't only given a seal.

It was in no way a nerf, just accept it.

It's a nerf. Just not a 50% nerf. You can't be this dense.

More proof this guy didn't watch the fucking video, talk less of the movie. The energy vessel was destroyed, and when toneri awakened his tenseigan, he started moving the moon all by himself.

This proves nothing, you don't know how much energy is being used to move the moon.

It's the truth, whether you accept it or not.

It's about as much of a lie as the next assumption you make. And that's a big ass lie.

That's not your only problem.

It kind of is when my opponent thinks Naruto can be in SPSM and KCM Sage Mode at the same time.

Conclusion:

Both don't depend on speed.

It does. He literally shot it at Naruto you goof. Lmao

He's just as likely to try and block LRE(the only one that is thrown) since he has no idea what it does.

He'll dodge it to blitz Toneri.

Same as above.

Not even close, it lessens his chances of outright blocking it.

Which won't work as explained above.

It'll work as I proved.

Which he doesn't do in character.

What does this even mean? That he won't utilize his almighty push to deflect attacks? That is literally the primary use of almighty push.

Sasuke's gravity manipulation is also weaker by feats. So toneri will resist it just fine.

It's not weaker. Last I checked Toneri threw rocks at Naruto and missed all of them. Sasuke put all 9 tailed beasts in a catastrophic planetary devastation at the same time, and even put fused Momoshiki in one.

Proven this wrong.

No, you didn't.

It was a fully powered BSM(with rikudo amp) Naruto. And it had Six paths senjutsu. So you're wrong

Everything is wrong with these sentences. Let alone you thinking Naruto can mix SPSM with KCM Sage Mode like a dumbass. Lmao, I mean come on now, I assume you're better than that.

Proven this wrong. The physical gap is not as wide as you think it is, toneri is just as fast if not faster than sasuke.

Got bodied by a KCM Sage Mode Naruto. Wouldn't have happened to Sasuke.

Sasuke's destructive output isn't enough to harm toneri as I've shown, and your scaling is faulty as hell.

One of your horrible counters to Sasuke's Susano'o was Toneri can throw rocks. This is the kind of man you're trying to put against Sasuke. Lmao

Susano'o cage has no senjutsu to not get erased, and switch teleporting will put him in contact with the orbs directly, so he dies anyway.

Sasuke is immune to TSB.

Proven this wrong as well.

Except you didn't since Toneri literally gets one shotted by said Naruto.

How the battle goes down:

My opponent has not provided any feats for sasuke.

I've provided more meaningful feats than you. You can't go two sentences without assuming some shit.

He has made a lot of statements which have been proven untrue.

The only one you proved untrue was Kurama's avatar taking up 50% of Kurama's chakra. Meanwhile I proved you wrong on multiple fronts, you conceded that Naruto wasn't in SPSM, then tried to backtrack and come up with this mess "He was in 100% BSM with rikudou chakra with six paths senjutsu".

He admits he doesn't know much about the series, yet he's still cock sure about his opinion.

I said I hadn't watched the movie in a couple years. Incompetence getting the better of you strikes again.

He outright lies several times and ignores facts in favor of his own opinion.

Never lied, sure as hell didn't assume as much as you if at all, and I got facts to back up my claims. You disregarded a novel statement with "we dont know how long or what kind of jutsu?" like either of those factors matter. Your desperation is showing.

And I'll say this again;

Why you already lost the debate:

To compare Sasuke, a man who combats Naruto's strongest forms(SPSM, Bijuu SPSM, Kurama avatar, etc) to Toneri, a man who got bodied and one shotted by one of Naruto's weaker forms(KCM Sage Mode) you're implying that Sasuke isn't even KCM Sage Mode Naruto level. Which is wrong at every possible angle you try to look at it because canonically he can factually compete with Naruto and go blow for blow with full powered Naruto. Toneri objectively cannot.

So to imply Sasuke < Toneri < KCM Sage Mode Naruto, you're completely disregarding and ignoring facts and constantly making assumptions as baseless as a construction site. And because of this, you already lost.

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#53 Posted by Hope_w (2835 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not trying to be insulting to anyone involved but I'd suggest just closing this as soon as possible.

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#54 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@co-boss said:

Man, I wish more Cavs don't come from deep arguments from other threads bc people just keep on insulting each other when they start the cav. Very little honor and respect in some recent Cavs.

I tried to keep it civil, then he responded like somebody killed his pet goldfish.

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#55 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w: What's the rush, two posts left.

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#56 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#57 Edited by Hope_w (2835 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: A CaV is a debate in good taste, it's practically a tradition of the battles boards that honestly involves an unspoken rule of professionalism during such. This debate is quite clearly delving into the opposite of that realm.

I'm all for aiming to prove someone wrong, however if you're both going to waste so much time on your respective posts why clutter it with insults and unneeded foul language? Some people actually look to these matchups to learn something about said characters. Basically ruins the sport in it tbh.

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#58 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w: I tried to keep it civil. He told me to get rid of my first post that was from our last thread because it was sprinkled with subtle insults and he wanted to keep that out of the debate as it might waver people's opinions due to our behavior. So I did, I deleted the post and let him do the opener. But after my response he wanted to go back to square one. He brought all this onto himself.

I'm still willing to stop the needless insults if he is.

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#59 Posted by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio

In Closing

Due to the fact that I have already given all the feats for my character and my opponent has refused to provide feats(that aren't taken out of context) for his character, and has even refused to drop some arguments after I pointed out flaws, I will counter his arguments for the last time in my finisher.

Counters To your arguments:

Toneri fought a weaker Naruto than sasuke

My opponent says sasuke fought SPSM, Kurama Avatar and Asura avatar(not even gonna address this since sasuke was heavily amped there) and toneri fought the much weaker KCSM

KCM Sage Mode Naruto(But let's just say 100% KCM Sage Mode)

Well no. First of all, KCM doesn't have vertical slits or thick whiskers at all:

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Only BM does:

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This means that it was BSM. So enough with this KCM nonsense. Then there's also the fact that the KCM you're talking of and the KCM the novel is talking of are two different things. The terms KCM and BSM are just fanterms thrown around for easy discussion. The novel is talking of this:

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I know you're still gonna be stubborn about this. According to the databook, Kurama mode exists because naruto and Kurama have an emotional bond and he can use The Tailed-Beast Bomb and The Tailed Beast Transformation, Jutsu's that were used by naruto in the last(The kurama avatar and the tailed beast bomb). In order for you to prove naruto used only KCSM, explain:

  • What happened to the emotional bond with naruto and kurama? Without it, Kurama Sage Mode(BSM) isn't possible
  • If you can't explain that, tell us why the incomplete KCM(without slits and whiskers) was used That's impossible but you have more brain power than a skeleton, so I'm sure you will find a way.
  • Why naruto's clone can use Kurama Sage mode(or BSM), but not naruto himself?

Moving on; there is no real difference between BSM and SPSM. They both have:

  • Six paths Chakra
  • All 9 bijuu's chakra(for those of you saying this boost's naruto)
  • Senjutsu, which all give you:

Six paths senjutsu(Not SPSM, which is different from six paths senjutsu)

There's also the fact that saying Toneri was beaten by a Naruto that was using "only BSM" would imply that Naruto was holding back, which is straight up asinine when you take the following into consideration:

  • Toneri was holding Hinata as a hostage and ripped Hanabi's eyes out.
  • Toneri oneshotted Naruto once and would have done it again if Hinata didn't save him after she awakened Hamura's chakra.
  • Toneri's endgoal was to slam the entire moon into earth wiping out all of humanity.
  • Naruto knew all this, yet decided to use a weaker(so it seems) form against him anyway.

Saying Naruto was holding back with so much at stake is nonsense and also ignores all the feats Naruto and Toneri have in the movie that eclipse nearly everything shown prior. Furthermore kishimoto does not give a damn about what form is used or how it looks like and he kept changing it constantly, how does anyone know he actually bothered with how he looks to determine how powerful he should be?

Who REALLY believes that they looked at Naruto and said

  • Well this RSM Naruto's power level is 10 million, and we have this BSM Naruto and his level power is 10 thousand...
  • we have this Toneri's guy power level around 9 thousand, welp, we will have him face BSM Naruto, because RM is overkill"

if you believe they were actually thinking that way, then suit yourself...

So either BSM naruto in the last is equal to SPSM, or the form used in TL is SPSM.

Sasuke is more or less equal with SPSM naruto

This is not true at all. Naruto in every single way has better feats than sasuke. In every situation, naruto outperforms sasuke, even after meeting hagoromo. The fight with kaguya proves this over and over again.

SPSM Naruto had no trouble reacting to sasuke's teleblitz or susano'o arrows:

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SPSM Naruto was not harmed at all from sasuke's chidori(as strong as the susano'o chidori, because susano'o doesn't increase the power of sasuke's jutsu) hitting him point blank in that same scan.

SPSM Naruto held back most of the fight and sasuke even says he's not serious:

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My point is, sasuke is in no way equivalent to SPSM naruto. So my opponent should stop trying to equate the two and provide feats for sasuke. My opponent using this fight as evidence that sasuke is equal to naruto is not valid in anyway whatsoever.

Toneri is only as fast as a nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto(But let's just say 100% KCM Sage Mode).

It's BSM. And it might as well be SPSM either way.

Sasuke is able to react to and tag Momoshiki multiple times throughout his fight with him, and Momoshiki is who could go toe to toe against SPSM Naruto:

A nerfed Sasuke has the upper hand in a brief exchange with Momoshiki
A nerfed Sasuke has the upper hand in a brief exchange with Momoshiki
Can effortlessly blind-side Momoshiki, who is leagues above Toneri.
Can effortlessly blind-side Momoshiki, who is leagues above Toneri.

Toneri, by feats, wouldn't have been able to tag fused Momoshiki or keep up with him. Momoshiki is leagues ahead of a KCM Sage Mode Naruto, and that version of Naruto was the highest Toneri could go against.

If Sasuke can effortlessly blindside and get the upper hand on Momoshiki, he would have no issue blitzing and utterly bodying Toneri.

In case this isn't enough to convince you,and you're thinking of boruto ep 65, the fight with momoshiki is not a good example because Momoshiki wasn't fighting sasuke alone. Naruto was there as well and even if you want to say it's not enough, you have to take into account momoshiki was reacting to sasuke easily thrice and could have killed him at least twice.

When he had sasuke dead to rights, he didn't kill the latter during the transformed rasenshuriken scene, and opted for chains instead of a chakra rod to the face.

The second time was with sasuke switching places with a transformed boruto, momoshiki reacted to him again easily as well as the kunai thrown.

Third time was with sasuke switching the chidori and destroying momoshiki's rinnegan. Momoshiki, despite being in pain, was still able to curbstomp sasuke physically in battle after that and disable him. He could have also killed him with a chakra rod, he already stabbed sasuke in his arms, what stops him from going for the head?

And before you say "they were nerfed, they lost half their chakra", I'll like to remind you that the only nerf that applies here is in the form of stamina(that is, how long they could fight before exhaustion), since chakra is equivalent to stamina:

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This means, the only nerf they had was in the form of a time limit on how long they could fight.

So no, In no way is sasuke equal to Naruto or momoshiki at all. Ergo, he is not toneri's superior, talkless of his equal.

Sasuke is immune to TSB because he touched chakra rods and Naruto can fly because of six paths chakra not because of six paths senjutsu.

Both of these are not true at all. I have provided proof that shows this is not true, my opponent hasn't provided anything to contradict my proof, yet my opponent keeps on saying that I have no point.

I'll tackle this for the last time as well.

Chakra rods=/=TSB

Chakra rods are weapons created by nagato, obito, momoshiki, and madara. The first thing I want to say is that these things can be created by people without six paths chakra or six paths senjutsu. Like pain, madara pre juubi jin:

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The reason why Tobirama is surprised sasuke can touch them is because sasuke has become strong enough to touch a chakra rod without being paralysed. The paralysis was something that affected hashirama until it decayed, due to madara being defeated:

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This alone is enough to destroy your argument since TSB's need six paths senjutsu to manifest at all:

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Also look at the effects on victims for Christ's sake:

TSB's permanently negated Edo minato's regeneration to the point he went back to the afterlife armless:

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while tobirama was healed completely in a few chapters:

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So sasuke still has absolutely no way of bypassing Toneri's TSB's because he has no senjutsu. That's the simple truth.

About naruto being able to fly because SPSM amps his base form and he doesn't need six paths senjutsu to fly. You've disregarded my point that naruto only flies when using six paths senjutsu, and you use the last as proof for it.

Depending on what theory or way you think six paths senjutsu can be gained, every reader will agree that rikudo chakra and/or chakra of all bijuu plus nature energy will give you six paths senjutsu. Naruto met all these requirements in the last, so there is no other conclusion to come to than naruto using six paths senjutsu.

Naruto had most of his chakra gone fighting the golem.

Both me and you the reader thought this one had been killed, but like phoenixman, it keeps coming back to life. Unlike that guy, It keeps getting weaker each post. My opponent says that the nerf is not 50%, but it's still a nerf:

It's a nerf. Just not a 50% nerf. You can't be this dense.

The reason he knows this:

If it wasn't most of it, Naruto would've been able to easily make at least 2 or 3 Kurama avatars w/o the shadow clone technique if he was overwhelmed.

Well Naruto has been shown to create 3 Kurama avatars, with only half of kurama's chakra, while heavily drained from days of fighting:

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Again, a Kurama avatar is simply not a significant portion of naruto or kurama's reserves. And your reasoning is so full of holes, it can used as a fishing net.

I could also just as easily say Toneri was also nerfed moving the moon for One hour, but my opponent says we don't know how much energy it takes to move the moon:

This proves nothing, you don't know how much energy is being used to move the moon.

Quite the hypocrisy you see, especially since we know that it takes much less energy to create and sustain the Kurama avatar, yet he says it's a significant nerf regardless.

I'll answer both questions. To move the moon, you would have to overcome it's inertia, which is directly proportional to it's mass, and as we all know the moon is pretty massive. So exactly 9.1 exatons.

The Kurama avatar...is just not a significant portion of naruto or kurama's reserves, go back to my first post. I've explained this several times. Half bijuu sage mode Naruto was creating chakra avatars left and right.

And on top of this, using my opponent's logic, Sasuke was the one who fought a weakened naruto. Naruto had been fighting nonstop for days with Kage and god level opponents, sharing his chakra with clones and tens of thousands of shinobi. If my opponent wants to say naruto was refreshed by receiving the other half of kurama and gaining SPSM(which is more or less the same thing as rikudo senjutsu BM), he will still have to concede that yin kurama had shared his chakra powering two BM users and sharing chakra with tens of thousands of shinobi as well and naruto was further nerfed from his fight with kaguya, where he spent chakra on clones that were destroyed and such. So he was nerfed as well, 50% or not. Whatever excuse you want to come up with for sasuke must be applied to toneri, since they fought the same opponent who had the same nerf.

Then again, the only imaginary nerf is in the form of stamina, since that is what chakra is made of:

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This means, that even if naruto was nerfed significantly(he was not), the only effect it had was a reduction in the time he could continue fighting.

The moon is hollow

He said it here:

It isn't. It just stopped a beam that was potent enough to slice a hollow moon. Doesn't make it moon level.

On the surface of it all, this looks like a valid argument. After all, the moon is hollow, and as such GWRE is not that powerful...or is it?

The first thing I would like to point out to you is that Nobody knows how hollow the moon is. Anybody telling you it's completely hollow is just wasting their time and yours. Why is this so? Well, let's see. We have:

  • A single clan, of unknown size
  • The single clan needs to make it so they can live there
  • Terraformed moon of unknown lengths
  • A sea of unknown lengths
  • A land of unknown lengths
  • A single city of unknown size shown on screen
  • and an artificial sun placed in an unknown spot, which is assumed in the center

And now the clan needs the entirety of the moon just to live there, so therefore the entire moon needs to be hollow according to @batmanplusjay I'm guessing. Big hole in that idea. The moon was a SP Chibaku Tensei where the body of the Ten Tails was sealed.

Hamura took the clan to the moon after he and hagoromo sealed the juubi, so to prove the entire moon was hollow, my opponent will have to explain why Hamura would undo the seal. And Then work his way around that would be plot hole of Madara being stated to break the seal 980+ years later....

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If that wasn't enough, you then have Shikamaru stating to Naruto that the place inside the moon is warped, thus the islands "looked" like they were floating. Even if California was warped the same way, the human eye wouldn't be able to see that far. The human eye can at best see 48km away(on a flat earth, not on a curved surface like the one naruto and co. are on).

Then on top of that, the Otsutsuki clan was what, maybe a few hundred thousand strong like per island (3 known islands), me being generous to you.

Hamura literally took only a handful of Otsutsuki with him on the moon and the rest took refuge on Earth and became the hyuga's. Why would such a small remaining clan need the entirety of the moon to make a home when we only see ONE goddamn city, one sea of unknown length, a forest, and a piece of deserted area of unknown length throughout the whole movie.

Even if we assume the hollowed out portion is 400km in diameter(that's more than 10 percent of the moon's diameter), we get 502,655 km^2. That's enough space for 7,389,013.8 Otsutsuki, using the average worldwide population density(14.7 per km squared). I'd like to remind you that we see only one city, and at this number of people, we no longer use clan to name them. That's a nation.

How much mass is gone from this hollowed out portion? Multiplying the volume of a 400km sphere(33,510,321km^3) with the density of the moon(3340kg/m^3), we get 1.12*10^20kg, what percent is this? 0.15% of the moon.

The hollowness of the moon couldn't have been that much, and it being hollow, in no way reduces the power of GWRE.

Naruto is much faster than toneri and his jutsu's.

This is by far the argument with the most generous application of mental gymnastics. Just look at it:

Naruto didn't try to punch Toneri.

How do you know this? And if naruto was so much faster than toneri, why didn't the punch connect either way? Are you implying naruto purposely slowed himself down? Why?

He came up with his fist out of the ground as a diversion for the rasengan, since if his punch had landed, the rasengan wouldn't have.

Or he could have created the rasengan because the punch didn't land. Again; according to you, naruto is much faster than toneri, so why go through all the trouble of deceiving toneri with the idea of a punch when he could just straight up hit him with the rasengan anyway?

Therefore Toneri got blitzed.

Again, how was he blitzed when he reacted to everything comfortably? Yes, the rasengan is included, he put his hands to block a direct hit like you admit:

Please do explain why.

Naruto and Toneri weren't hitting each other, you need to take your own advice and watch the fight for yourself because Toneri never tagged Naruto once that entire fight. And you can't prove he did.

Sure, toneri and naruto were not hitting each other. Okay, If they weren't hitting each other and naruto is so much faster, stronger and more powerful than toneri, how come the fight lasted an hour? Somehow, naruto and toneri had to basically be on the same level for the fight to even last that long.

Because we didn't see him get hit,

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You sure about that? Naruto's facial expression and the whole scene itself strongly suggest he was hit. Do you have anything official explicitly telling us he wasn't hit?

he came out of the split with clones prepared like he intended on using them as diversions,

Let me get this straight.

  • Naruto jumped towards toneri when the latter had already created GWRE
  • He dodged the beam, then decided to follow it anyway into the split rather than take advantage of his much greater speed and punch toneri or rasengan his face,
  • toneri didn't see this happen because he was so much slower than naruto,
  • naruto didn't stay far away from toneri to achieve the same thing, by being hit while he was on the ground.
  • He didn't create clones before GWRE to cause a diversion anyway.
  • He didn't end the fight earlier

It's not like naruto is slower than toneri (my opponent has made this painfully clear this is what he thinks), It's not like naruto needs time to create clones, he does that instantly:

It's not like naruto isn't aware THE EARTH IS IN DANGER. In fact, batmanplusjay is right and we should forget all these very important holes in his conclusion. Let's also disregard the much simpler conclusion that naruto was simply too slow to dodge GWRE, because clearly, only someone with the brain power of a skeleton(or a brain the size of a seed) can come up with this conclusion.

and he sustained literally no damage after he shot the beam.

You: Naruto is much more durable than toneri's weak jutsu, even base hinata survived it.

You again: Naruto dodged GWRE because he sustained no damage from it(not because he's more durable), implying toneri can harm naruto.

So which is it?

Common sense would tell anyone with a brain he dodged it.

Oh, he did dodge it if you ignore all the holes in that idea.

And he didn't do those other things because he didn't want to.

My god. Forget those inconsistencies people. Batmanplusjay has wowed us with the answer to all those questions. Naruto doesn't care that the world is in danger, he doesn't give a shit about his superior speed and everything else, he doesn't care that he can just blitz toneri and end the fight in one minute. No, supposedly:

  • He fights the much weaker Toneri for an hour, when he doesn't need to
  • He prolongs the risk to earth
  • He randomly decided to jump into GWRE's split(or he anticipated all the way from the beginning) because he wanted to. How does this make sense to you?

Same reason why at the beginning of the movie Naruto chases Toneri's puppet in base form to save Hinata instead of going KCM off the bat and ending the movie in 15 seconds.

Moon would still be plunging towards earth, chakra cannon could have been destroyed by the same tenseigan vessel moving the moo(yes, it can used as a weapon), toneri would still have kidnapped hanabi and caused the movie to happen anyway, so and so forth. And why would naruto use a transformation so strong on a kidnapper?

Because he wanted to.

Someone with more brain power than a skeleton came up with this as a legit answer.

Now that I've pretty much done my best to kill his major arguments for good, let's get back to the main debate and finish this up.

Chakra Absorption.

Then don't talk to me about this until you have proof. I'm tired of you and your shitty assumptions, thinking you can combat irrefutable facts with assumptions and logic that don't even make sense, yet you have the audacity to talk like you're speaking "facts".

Your point is that we don't know if puppet reincarnation or LRE will absorb sasuke's chakra any faster than naruto's. I will admit I have no proof of this. But what is your point anyway? That toneri's rate of absorption is inversely proportional to one's chakra amount? The fact is, If those two jutsu's hit sasuke, his chakra will be gone in seconds.

Sasuke won't do that, he has too many options to choose something so direct.

Now your next point is if sasuke will dodge/teleport away from the jutsu's instead of blocking them. Well, him blocking the attack is in character for him 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,

Sasuke dodges much less frequently than he blocks. I hope you the readers understand this.

And lastly, you want proof Toneri control's his jutsu with just thoughts. One would think, that toneri commanding the jutsu to either absorb chakra or turn it into a bomb or the fact that most jutsu in this series rely on thought would be enough evidence. Well, when he used puppet reincarnation on naruto, he specifically aimed for naruto and no one else. Everybody else was fine while naruto was in pain from having all his chakra get absorbed.

Gravity manipulation

Oh and I want to see proof of his gravity manipulation destroying anything on the level of Sasuke's Susano'o.

The proof you require for toneri's deva path being able to crush sasuke's susano'o comes from the fact it can overcome the moon's inertia(directly proportional to it's mass) and move it continuously for a long time. The energy required to do this far exceeds the energy required to destroy sasuke's susano'o. According to this subreddit and wikipedia, the energy required to move the moon out of orbit is 3.8 x 10^28 joules or 9.1 exatons. The chibaku tensei toneri was moving had previously stopped moving after the tenseigan vessel was destroyed. Toneri did this, and then he proceeded to push the moon towards earth continously for one hour. This is casually moon level.

Sasuke's susano'o durability is at best country level, which means it gets crushed easily.

As for it not harming base naruto when he used it on the latter, that can easily be explained by toneri not being serious at all. As far as he was concerned, everything was going according to plan, so he could afford to be lax.

And not only does Susano'o counter this ridiculously weak attack, a simple almighty push would handle it.

Susano'o cannot counter toneri's gravity manipulation and sasuke has no feats on toneri's level with Almighty push. He has no feats to suggest that.

Sensing

There isn't anything significant here for me to counter. This entire section consists solely of arguments I've countered.

Gudodamas:

As I've pointed out above, touching a chakra rod, doesn't mean you can touch a TSB. Sasuke's jutsu still can't withstand the nullification effect of the TSB's, as is his body.

Speed/Reflexes/Reactions:

Well no. A kurama avatar is slower than the real naruto, It's huge and as such, it's movements can be seen coming from a mile away.

CQC:

He didn't hit Naruto with GWRE. He missed the first time, then got blocked the second.

If toneri didn't hit Naruto the first time, why did naruto come out of the hole GWRE made? It can't be to make clones, those are instant:

This gif shows you are simply wrong:

you contradicted yourself since Naruto can't be in BSM while having six paths senjutsu activated at the same time like you're implying.

Naruto in SPSM:

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Naruto then activating BM on top of SPSM:

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You are wrong.

Naruto didn't try to punch Toneri. He came up with his fist out of the ground as a diversion for the rasengan, since if his punch had landed, the rasengan wouldn't have.

How do you know that's what naruto intended? There's nothing to imply this and it is subject to interpretation. It's more likely that the rasengan was created because the punch failed to connect.

Therefore Toneri got blitzed.

If it was so easy to blitz toneri according to you, one would wonder why the fight lasted as long as it did. According to you in fact:

  • Naruto knows the earth is in danger
  • Naruto decides not to use his most powerful mode or at least six paths senjutsu
  • Despite being in a weaker form and being so fast toneri never touches him, they fight for an hour.
  • Because he wanted to you say.

Naruto and Toneri weren't hitting each other, you need to take your own advice and watch the fight for yourself because Toneri never tagged Naruto once that entire fight.

That's for the readers to decide, not you. I don't know why you think your word matters so much.

And you can't prove he did.

I don't need to, there is a video I posted for everyone to watch of the two hitting each other several times.

And why don't you also explain why If naruto was faster than toneri and he was much more powerful, the fight lasted for an hour?

Also, there's the fact that in terms of CQC, BSM naruto would destroy sasuke, not to talk of ninjutsu.

Destructive Capacity:

Base Hinata, shikamaru and Sai were all in the middle of it and came out just fine.

That's true, they were in the eye of the tornado, which is the safest part of a tornado in RL. Toneri likely knew this since he still wanted to marry hinata but wanted to get her away from naruto. At long range, sasuke may survive, but that's if he's not hit by the wing column directly.

If you want to say it wasn't as calm as a RL tornado, well RL tornadoes don't destroy huge chunks of kilometres of rock.

Durability:

Again, the rasengans didn't break it. Sasuke's Susnao'o sword assisting Naruto's Kurama did. The rasengans at best weakened it.

This is not true at all. When we see the susano'o sword next to the shield, we see the shield had already been broken, so the sword did nothing to the shield. If the sword touched and damaged the shield, we would see the sword pierce it, and there would be a hole in the shield, not have the thing look like it was hit by an explosion which was what the Osama rasengan caused.

Also, what are you trying to prove here? Toneri's TSB took at the very least country level force without a scratch, something sasuke caps out at based on his feats. To make things worse, sasuke has no senjutsu, making the whole effort worthless.

Toneri got bruised by a rasengan he had barely blocked, he won't survive a chidori that pierces his chest by a much faster opponent like Sasuke.

Base Rasengan>>base Chidori, the series makes this clear very early:

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At best enton chidori is equal to rasengan:

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The fact that rasengan can do something doesn't mean chidori can as well. And no, that rasengan is not weaker than chidori. It's made up of the same six paths chakra, has senjutsu boosting it and has the ninetails chakra as a further boost. At the very least, it's slightly stronger than the chidori.

That's exactly how it works. From it being a collision, he's not feeling the full impact.

Bull.

The same reason why Naruto and Sasuke could clash Jutsu like the Indra Arrow he shot and Naruto's 3-headed Kurama double rasenshuriken and not immediately die from the impact.

They were in amped chakra avatars that were destroyed. They didn't die from the impact because they were protected from it:

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Making things worse for your fanfic, they were in the collision's sphere of effect/destruction:

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Sphere's created by weaker jutsu have been shown to completely vaporize everything within their confines:

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So they didn't tank some "after-effect". The same thing happened with naruto and Toneri, they were engulfed in their jutsu collision sphere/cylinder.

He's experiencing the after effect and from the looks of it in the movie, the after effect doesn't do much.

Nonsense as I've proven above. The explosion is way above the moon's surface, so nothing is hit and destroyed. Just like Indra's arrow and bijuurasenshuriken collision explosion.

Because we didn't see him get hit,

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I'll leave this Gif to the audience to decide.

And he didn't do those other things because he didn't want to.

Sorry, I just have to repeat this. Again, for some reason only batmanplusjay understands, naruto is prolonging toneri's defeat, putting the earth in more danger by the second, not taking advantage of his supposedly superior speed and acting like an idiot, when he can end this easily.

So let's put what you are saying down in bite size chunks:

  • Naruto saw Toneri prepare GWRE
  • He flew towards toneri for...some reason
  • Toneri swings the beam on naruto
  • Naruto dodges the beam, then instantly decides to follow it into the hole it makes.
  • Toneri doesn't notice this at all, because well... he's so damn slow according to you.
  • Naruto does all this because he wants to

Or, we use Occam's razor to come to the simplest and likeliest conclusion:

  • Naruto saw Toneri prepare GWRE
  • He flies towards him to attack him
  • Toneri swings the jutsu and naruto is too slow to react to it.

My opponent's conclusion is supported by nothing. The novelization and movie do not imply this in the slightest, and as you've seen above, the gif plainly makes it clear naruto was hit.

Because he wanted to.

This is the best reason you can come up with? Why would naruto do something so stupid? Using Occam's razor as above, the only thing that makes sense is for naruto to have been hit by GWRE.

So in conclusion

The naruto that toneri fought was stronger than the one that sasuke fought based on feats. saying SPSM naruto should be stronger means nothing when sasuke wasn't evenm a threat to him in that form.

The Naruto that fought toneri was not nerfed in anyway at all. If my opponent still wants to claim that naruto was nerfed, he has to accept that sasuke fought an even more nerfed naruto. Whatever excuse he brings to explain this must also be applied to toneri as well.

Sasuke is not on naruto's level at all.

Sasuke cannot interact with the TSB's since he has no senjutsu. Him touching chakra rods(which are not the same thing and were created by a madara who didn't have Six paths senjutsu and touching an ally's TSB(meaning he turned off the disintegration effect) are not enough proof.

Sasuke is more likely to try and block toneri's jutsu than teleport away.

Sasuke's jutsu have no feats on the level required to harm toneri. Statements are just not enough.

Toneri takes this fight mid difficulty.

Comicvine is known as a site that takes feats over statements and it should apply here. Statements say that sasuke and naruto are equal, feats say they aren't.

Statements say toneri fought only BSM naruto. Analysis of feats say it doesn't matter and the abilities used in the fight say they are mostly the same thing.

Statements say naruto is faster than toneri, dodged GWRE and did a whole lot of stuff for an hour:

Common sense and the video I posted shows they are equal.

Avatar image for ruthlesskiller
#60 Posted by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio
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#61 Posted by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: @reaverlation: @ourmanuel: @streak619:

@ruthlesskiller: Lmao, so you tell me to delete a post for having subtle insults, then right after my civilised post, you go back to passive aggressive insults and lies? You can dish it but won't take it? Am I gonna have to shit on you again?

Anyway, give me a couple days and I'll cook you.

I never actually saw this. I'm really sorry for any perceived insults. I wasn't going for that.

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#62 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@ruthlesskiller:

This isn't a full response, obviously, this is just something I wanna say before my official response:

It's like you don't process anything I put in front of you. Literally nothing. I have shown definitive evidence factually countering anything you said(like Naruto not using SPSM, Sasuke being able to easily counter a slow attack, and countless others) and you still like to act like I brought nothing to the table.

You truly are one of a kind. Anyway, I'll respond in a few days.

Avatar image for batmanplusjay
#63 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@ruthlesskiller said:

In Closing

Due to the fact that I have already given all the feats for my character and my opponent has refused to provide feats(that aren't taken out of context) for his character, and has even refused to drop some arguments after I pointed out flaws, I will counter his arguments for the last time in my finisher.

Like I said earlier, you deny blatant facts I put in your face. Ignore the feats I show you. And you base your arguments off of "what if" and baseless assumptions, like assuming Sasuke is "much weaker" than Naruto just because Naruto has slightly better feats. They both fought side by side in the war and fought against each other almost as equals. Naruto wouldn't have won the war without Sasuke and vice versa. But you'll ignore that too, because "naruto has bettr feets so he's WAAAAAAAAAAY strngr then Sasuke".

Toneri fought a weaker Naruto than sasuke

My opponent says sasuke fought SPSM, Kurama Avatar and Asura avatar(not even gonna address this since sasuke was heavily amped there) and toneri fought the much weaker KCSM

Sasuke didn't become amped until half way through the fight. He and Naruto had already swapped hands for several pages before he used the Bijuu chakra.

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And this isn't even all the pages up to Sasuke's power up. I reached the URL cap before I could post them all. There's still more pages showing Sasuke going toe to toe with Bijuu SPSM Naruto before he levels up. They are relatively equal, doesn't matter how much you try to downplay Sasuke, the facts are there.

Well no. First of all, KCM doesn't have vertical slits or thick whiskers at all:

Only BM does:

This means that it was BSM. So enough with this KCM nonsense.

Congratulations, you proved a point that got you literally nowhere. It's still a significantly weaker form that Sasuke is above. Lmao. Regardless if he was in KCM, Bijuu mode, or BSM, it doesn't take away from the fact Toneri got bodied by a much weaker form of Naruto that Sasuke would body.

I know you're still gonna be stubborn about this.

Nah. Lmao unlike you, I can admit when I'm wrong on something.

What happened to the emotional bond with naruto and kurama? Without it, Kurama Sage Mode(BSM) isn't possible

If you can't explain that, tell us why the incomplete KCM(without slits and whiskers) was used That's impossible but you have more brain power than a skeleton, so I'm sure you will find a way.

Why naruto's clone can use Kurama Sage mode(or BSM), but not naruto himself?

Although I already admitted he was in Bijuu Sage Mode, I just wanna say this is a garbage way of going about your point. If I'd decided to be stubborn, there's easy answers to all 3 of those questions.

Moving on; there is no real difference between BSM and SPSM.

Are you high? Are you saying Naruto fought Madara and Kaguya in BSM? Since there isn't a difference according to you, Naruto with just BSM gave Kaguya the business.

Or are you insinuating that The Last BSM Naruto = Eos SPSM Naruto? If so, let's talk about the fact that Eos SPSM Naruto fought much stronger enemies than The Last BSM Naruto. Like Six Paths Madara, Kaguya, and Sasuke. The Last BSM Naruto took an hour to beat someone far weaker than everyone I just mentioned, including Sasuke.

They both have:

Six paths Chakra

Six Paths Sage Mode =/= Six Paths Chakra, nor is it on the level or anywhere close to the level of SPSM. Otherwise you're implying Sasuke is running around with SPSM too. Which honestly would only hurt your point. Six Paths Chakra is in Naruto's chakra network now, even in his base form, but don't think for a second it makes the difference between The Last BSM and Eos Bijuu SPSM Naruto.

I'd love to ask for proof of(yet again) your assumptions and broken logic, but this is the last post.

All 9 bijuu's chakra(for those of you saying this boost's naruto)

He only has a piece of their chakra, with the full 9 tails. And again, having their chakra doesn't automatically mean Naruto is now locked in SPSM and can fly and do whatever like you claimed. That's not how it works. SPSM is a mode that can be activated and deactivated at will, saying that by having all 9 of the bijuu's chakra means Naruto is always in SPSM is like saying since Naruto has the 9 tails he always has KCM activated. It's ridiculous and it shows how delusional you are.

Senjutsu

Toad Sage Mode gives an extremely weaker version of senjutsu. The gap between Toad Sage Mode and SPSM is so far apart they shouldn't even be in the same sentence.

which all give you:

Six paths senjutsu(Not SPSM, which is different from six paths senjutsu)

LOLLL so you created an entirely new mode? You just used the most broken logic I've seen on this site and literally created a new mode as an "attempt" to try and excuse the absolutely bs claim that "SPSM and BSM is the same". Here's your logic:

> Hmm.... so Naruto has Six Paths Chakra.....

> And Naruto also has Toad Sage Mode......

> ..... So if he uses TSM since he has Six Paths Chakra now, it must be "SIX PATHS SENJUTSU"!

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Now, obviously, that's not how it works. It's still only considered Sage Mode if post-war Naruto goes into Sage Mode or BSM. Same way we don't see a base form post-war Naruto and go "That's base form six paths Naruto". It's literally a non-existent term, and logic, you just made up. The amp Six Paths Chakra gives you is a miniscule one. Which is evident since we see Naruto chase ninjas while in base form and barely saves Hinata from her kidnapper. Now had he been in SPSM, it obviously would've been over before anyone knew it started.

The fact you use shit like this, your assumptions, and your god awful logic and imagination to argue with, shows you have nothing to support any claims you make.

There's also the fact that saying Toneri was beaten by a Naruto that was using "only BSM" would imply that Naruto was holding back, which is straight up asinine when you take the following into consideration:

I don't care for your feelings or your headcanon. The facts show Naruto in BSM. He was holding back. The same way he held back in the beginning of the movie when chasing Hinata's kidnappers in base form rather than going Sage Mode or SPSM and ending it instantly.

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Toneri was holding Hinata as a hostage and ripped Hanabi's eyes out.

Toneri oneshotted Naruto once and would have done it again if Hinata didn't save him after she awakened Hamura's chakra.

Toneri's endgoal was to slam the entire moon into earth wiping out all of humanity.

Naruto knew all this, yet decided to use a weaker(so it seems) form against him anyway.

Know why? Because Naruto is a fictional character who has no thought process or any form reasoning(meaning Naruto isn't real, I'm not bashing his character). People are writing his character. The writers of the movie couldn't have it end in the beginning in the first 15 seconds so they made Naruto hold back for the entire movie. Naruto did hold back the entire time, I don't care for your head canon or what you think. The facts are in front of you, it's not your job to question it, you need to accept them.

Saying Naruto was holding back with so much at stake is nonsense and also ignores all the feats Naruto and Toneri have in the movie that eclipse nearly everything shown prior.

Refer to what I said above.

Furthermore kishimoto does not give a damn about what form is used or how it looks like and he kept changing it constantly, how does anyone know he actually bothered with how he looks to determine how powerful he should be?

More assumptions, hunches, and guesses, no facts. You just don't learn your lesson do you? But let's entertain this for a second. Kishimoto does care what form he uses, otherwise he wouldn't have gone out of his way to add the sage mode pigmentations around the eyes. The only thing that changes in Naruto's forms is the cloak's look. Bijuu mode changes several times, which makes sense since it's just a cloak of chakra. Chakra can be controlled and manipulated to look however the user wants it to look. Same way you just proved the distinction between KCM and Bijuu mode with the eyes. He knows which forms he wants Naruto to use and which he doesn't. Other than Naruto's Bijuu mode cloaks, everything else stays the same.

It's not your job to question the facts. It's your job to accept them.

Who REALLY believes that they looked at Naruto and said

Well this RSM Naruto's power level is 10 million, and we have this BSM Naruto and his level power is 10 thousand...

we have this Toneri's guy power level around 9 thousand, welp, we will have him face BSM Naruto, because RM is overkill"

if you believe they were actually thinking that way, then suit yourself...

Or.... you're just overhyping Toneri. Before the movie we knew absolutely nothing about the guy, he wasn't a thing. You act like you have a bunch of his past feats that would prove he's above a BSM Naruto, you don't. You're only assuming shit because it's all you can do. You're exaggerating and wanking everything he can do based off of one showing of a guy we don't know that much about getting his butt kicked by BSM. Right now, Toneri's best feat is going toe to toe with Bijuu Sage Mode. Which is an absolutely garbage feat when trying to pit him again Sasuke.

So either BSM naruto in the last is equal to SPSM, or the form used in TL is SPSM.

Neither. Toneri is just a weak villain. You need to accept that, especially when you have absolutely nothing but garbage assumptions as your foundation to these claims.

Sasuke is more or less equal with SPSM naruto

This is not true at all. Naruto in every single way has better feats than sasuke. In every situation, naruto outperforms sasuke, even after meeting hagoromo. The fight with kaguya proves this over and over again.

Already debunked this. And like I said earlier, having better feats than someone doesn't put them far above them. I don't care if Naruto was better than Sasuke in literally any stat you could think of, the fact is Sasuke isn't far behind at all. Sasuke has feats that could rival Naruto's. Like SPSM Naruto getting blocked by Six Paths one-rinnegan Madara, and Sasuke effortlessly cutting him in half;

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Naruto had failed to punch a Madara that just got Evening Elephant'd by 8th gate Might Guy, and Sasuke blitzed a Madara that had plenty of time to recover and had absorbed the Divine Tree.

SPSM Naruto had no trouble reacting to sasuke's teleblitz or susano'o arrows:

Naruto GOT HIT by that chidori. Why do you keep saying he reacted to something that connected with him and sent him flying into the lake? If someone were to punch you in your face, would you consider that "reacting"? No. Same here.

Not to mention, you keep flip flopping. One moment you're trying to justify why Sasuke did teleblitz him with your headcanon, saying "If sasuke hadn't used the fireball he wouldnt have hit Naruto". And the next minute you're trying to deny he hit Naruto.

You also flip flopped on Naruto being in BSM instead of SPSM. You admitted "naw he was in BSM my mistake", then a post later you're trying to say he's in BSM and SPSM at the same time? And now in this post you acknowledge SPSM and BSM are two different forms, but since that would obviously destroy your entire point(which honestly, you already did a great job of destroying your own points), you created an entirely new mode and tried to say BSM and SPSM is the same.

You're not even digging yourself into a deeper hole with a shovel, you're power drilling and got the whole construction crew helping you dig yourself into a grand canyon. Honest you couldn't have shitted on yourself any worse than you just did. Your contradictions are amazing.

SPSM Naruto was not harmed at all from sasuke's chidori(as strong as the susano'o chidori, because susano'o doesn't increase the power of sasuke's jutsu) hitting him point blank in that same scan.

Yet again another contradiction. First you claim Naruto reacted, now "Naruto wasnt harmed tho". Anyway, it wouldn't matter. Sasuke kept up and blitzed SPSM Naruto over a long period of time, a feat Mr. I-get-oneshotted-by-weak-forms obviously cannot accomplish.

SPSM Naruto held back most of the fight and sasuke even says he's not serious:

He says Naruto is fighting defensively, this doesn't prove anything other than Naruto isn't fighting offensively. Sasuke was still able to go toe to toe with SPSM Naruto for HOURS on end and teleblitz him. The holding back SPSM Naruto did in his fight with Sasuke, and the disrespectful amount of holding back BSM Naruto did against Toneri are on two completely different levels. Naruto fought Sasuke in one of his strongest forms and fought defensively, Naruto fought Toneri in a weaker form entirely.

My point is, sasuke is in no way equivalent to SPSM naruto.

I know that your point is backed up by assumptions. And your point is wrong, always has been.

So my opponent should stop trying to equate the two and provide feats for sasuke. My opponent using this fight as evidence that sasuke is equal to naruto is not valid in anyway whatsoever.

I provided plenty of feats that you still haven't debunked. You need to stop assuming and lying.

It's BSM. And it might as well be SPSM either way.

> "Sasuke isn't even base Naruto level"

> "BSM and SPSM is the same"

> "He was in six paths senjutsu, a completely new form I just made up but idc im desperate"

You're on a roll aren't you?

In case this isn't enough to convince you,and you're thinking of boruto ep 65, the fight with momoshiki is not a good example because Momoshiki wasn't fighting sasuke alone. Naruto was there as well and even if you want to say it's not enough, you have to take into account momoshiki was reacting to sasuke easily thrice and could have killed him at least twice.

Doesn't matter whether Momoshiki was fighting Sasuke alone or not, in that brief exchange he did, and he got bested by Sasuke. And I could say the same for Sasuke "easily" reacting to Momoshiki. Not to mention, the Sasuke shown here couldn't even use jutsu and had been nerfed to shit teleporting a handful of people to the dimension and extremely low on chakra.

This feat is valid. You didn't even try to debunk it, you just tried to come up with 1009 excuses for why Momoshiki got bested by a nerfed Sasuke.

When he had sasuke dead to rights, he didn't kill the latter during the transformed rasenshuriken scene, and opted for chains instead of a chakra rod to the face.

Sasuke would've reacted to that the same way he reacted to them at the end of the fight.

The second time was with sasuke switching places with a transformed boruto, momoshiki reacted to him again easily as well as the kunai thrown.

Sasuke getting hit was planned so Boruto could land the vanishing massive rasengan. And Momoshiki still got hit by Sasuke's chidori anyway.

Third time was with sasuke switching the chidori and destroying momoshiki's rinnegan. Momoshiki, despite being in pain, was still able to curbstomp sasuke physically in battle after that and disable him.

Again, it was planned to land the rasengan.

He could have also killed him with a chakra rod, he already stabbed sasuke in his arms, what stops him from going for the head?

This logic applies to any time someone lands a hit at all in a fight. The same moment I showed Sasuke blind siding and kicking Momoshiki, Sasuke could've chidori'd and cut his head off. The same moment I showed Sasuke getting the upper hand against Momoshiki in a brief exchange, I could easily say the same with stabbing Momoshiki with a chidori rather than kicking him.

Argue with facts next time you CaV someone, not your assumptions or half-assed hypotheticals.

And before you say "they were nerfed, they lost half their chakra", I'll like to remind you that the only nerf that applies here is in the form of stamina(that is, how long they could fight before exhaustion), since chakra is equivalent to stamina

They also couldn't use jutsu. Which is a massive nerf against someone who's farting snakes, chakra chains, golems and explosive blasts.

This means, the only nerf they had was in the form of a time limit on how long they could fight.

And when low on stamina, you don't perform as well either. Same way a runner can't start a race at low stamina thinking they'd perform the same way at full stamina.

So no, In no way is sasuke equal to Naruto or momoshiki at all. Ergo, he is not toneri's superior, talkless of his equal.

He is relatively equal to Naruto, and he's stronger than Momoshiki. Superior isn't a long enough word to describe how superior he is to Toneri, and you still haven't proved anything.

Sasuke is immune to TSB because he touched chakra rods and Naruto can fly because of six paths chakra not because of six paths senjutsu.

Both of these are not true at all. I have provided proof that shows this is not true, my opponent hasn't provided anything to contradict my proof, yet my opponent keeps on saying that I have no point.

They are true and you haven't proved anything.

I'll tackle this for the last time as well.

You didn't tackle it last time either. You barely tapped it.

Chakra rods=/=TSB

Never said they were. I just showed you that upon being granted six paths chakra, Sasuke was able to touch the chakra rods without being affected, and this same phenomenon happened with the TSB. Ergo, he can touch TSB without being affected.

This is much more reasonable than your "they can choose who touches it!" bullshit. You constantly give people powers and abilities they don't have. TSB disintegrating people have never been shown to be able to be controlled.

Chakra rods are weapons created by nagato, obito, momoshiki, and madara. The first thing I want to say is that these things can be created by people without six paths chakra or six paths senjutsu. Like pain, madara pre juubi jin:

I know what chakra rods are.

The reason why Tobirama is surprised sasuke can touch them is because sasuke has become strong enough to touch a chakra rod without being paralysed. The paralysis was something that affected hashirama until it decayed, due to madara being defeated:

Know why he was able to negate the effects of touching it? Because he acquired Six Paths chakra.

This alone is enough to destroy your argument since TSB's need six paths senjutsu to manifest at all:

But wait, which six paths senjutsu are you talking about? The BSM "Six Paths Senjutsu thats somehow different than SPSM"? Or the actual SPSM?

Lmao ok, I'ma stop clowning. Anyway, this doesn't prove anything. It just proves that SPSM is needed to manifest it. It's you who's going the extra mile and assuming SPSM is the only thing that can touch TSB.

TSB's permanently negated Edo minato's regeneration to the point he went back to the afterlife armless:

Did Edo Minato have Six Paths Chakra like Sasuke? Nah, don't think so.

while tobirama was healed completely in a few chapters:

I never claimed TSB and chakra rods are the same.

So sasuke still has absolutely no way of bypassing Toneri's TSB's because he has no senjutsu. That's the simple truth.

You didn't prove anything. You wasted time trying to prove chakra rods and TSB are different. You never even touched on why Sasuke is able to touch TSB as he was shown, because your only explanation for that is to give SPSM users new moves they never had before like being able to choose who touches the TSB.

About naruto being able to fly because SPSM amps his base form and he doesn't need six paths senjutsu to fly. You've disregarded my point that naruto only flies when using six paths senjutsu, and you use the last as proof for it.

I didn't disregard it. Naruto cannot use six paths senjutsu without actually going into SPSM. Naruto was not in SPSM, and he was flying. Therefore it is confirmed flying is a base form amp that does not require SPSM to be activated in order to fly. Those are the facts.

Depending on what theory or way you think six paths senjutsu can be gained, every reader will agree that rikudo chakra and/or chakra of all bijuu plus nature energy will give you six paths senjutsu.

But SPSM needs to be ACTIVATED. In the fight with Toneri, SPSM was NOT ACTIVATED. Therefore if Naruto needs SPSM in order to fly like you claim, he needs to have it ACTIVATED but since it wasn't ACTIVATED when he flew, it proves flying doesn't need SPSM ACTIVATED in order to be used.

Got me?

Naruto met all these requirements in the last, so there is no other conclusion to come to than naruto using six paths senjutsu.

Naruto passing the requirements to acquire the mode doesn't mean anything.

What's next? Naruto being able to use Frog Kumite without activating sage mode just because he met the requirements to acquire sage mode?

Naruto had most of his chakra gone fighting the golem.

Didn't say that. I said he had chakra gone.

Both me and you the reader thought this one had been killed, but like phoenixman, it keeps coming back to life. Unlike that guy, It keeps getting weaker each post. My opponent says that the nerf is not 50%, but it's still a nerf:

Lmao please, I wonder what power you'll give him next. Naruto has an ability where he can somehow use chakra and not use it at the same time? Or maybe by the grace of god the sage of six paths came back and gave him a third Kurama? What fantasy ghost stories will you tell me this time?

And this is why:

If it wasn't most of it, Naruto would've been able to easily make at least 2 or 3 Kurama avatars w/o the shadow clone technique if he was overwhelmed.

And now you're lying and misleading the readers. The quote above the one here showed me saying "It's a nerf, just not a 50% nerf". and I conceded that it takes up a lot of his chakra since he did indeed create multiple Kurama avatars even while low on chakra. But you clearly ignored this, then you go all the way back to my first post and find a quote that shows me arguing that "most" his chakra had been used up. You went back and reopened a closed case even though I already admitted that manifesting a Kurama avatar doesn't take most his chakra in my second post. You're deliberately lying and misleading readers. On top of the lying, your assumptions, garbage hypothetical situations, delusion and refusal to face facts is exactly what makes you a garbage debater.

Quite the hypocrisy you see, especially since we know that it takes much less energy to create and sustain the Kurama avatar, yet he says it's a significant nerf regardless.

Further proving my point of your lies. So everything below, I'm ignoring, since you're arguing shit that was settled a while ago. In your attempt to look smart, you just proved you're the exact opposite.

The moon is hollow

The hollowness of the moon couldn't have been that much, and it being hollow, in no way reduces the power of GWRE.

I'm not about to pretend like I knew of anything you were talking about above with the calculations, and I don't care to fact check. But let's just assume your statement above is right, that the moon being hollow doesn't reduce the power of the GWRE. Blocking a moon level attack doesn't make the thing that's blocking it as strong as said attack.

And the point still stands that Sasuke is still factually relatively equal to Naruto since he could go toe to toe with him in his stronger forms. Thus by basic scaling, even if he doesn't have the feats showing he has moon level attacks, there's statements from Shikamaru himself and the current Kage stating He and Naruto could both destroy the continent(implying he and Naruto are close in power) and the fact that he and Naruto are relatively equal(as I proved and you keep failing to disprove) proves he has attacks that are definitely on the level. Especially considering he effortlessly destroyed a piece of the moon a squad of 6 gate users failed to destroy.

So honestly, whether the moon is hollow or not doesn't matter, I shouldn't have even brought it up because this is a battle mismatch by a large margin in Sasuke's favor.

Naruto is much faster than toneri and his jutsu's.

How do you know this? And if naruto was so much faster than toneri, why didn't the punch connect either way? Are you implying naruto purposely slowed himself down? Why?

1) I know it for reasons I already stated. 2) The punch didn't connect either way because of self control, just because he's moving fast doesn't mean he can't intentionally miss. 3) No, I'm saying he didn't try to punch Toneri, he wanted to land the rasengan. As I just said. 4) Obviously because if the punch landed, it'd have sent Toneri flying and the rasengan he had in his hand would have been utterly pointless.

Or he could have created the rasengan because the punch didn't land. Again; according to you, naruto is much faster than toneri, so why go through all the trouble of deceiving toneri with the idea of a punch when he could just straight up hit him with the rasengan anyway?

Except he didn't just create that rasengan. He came out of the ground with it. That punch was a diversion tactic, it's evident when Toneri come out of the ground staring at Naruto's fist as it moves past him, completely unaware of the rasengan in front of him the last second. It's called knowing how to fight, and diversion tactics are extremely common in Naruto and are used in almost every fight in Naruto. Like when Sasuke used that fireball as a diversion tactic to blitz Naruto, like when Naruto uses clones to deceive people, like when Naruto used the rasenshuriken as a diversion to close the distance on the raikage, Naruto's fight with Pain, the list goes on.

He didn't just outright hit Toneri with the rasengan because for starters he was in BSM, a form that Toneri can can go toe to toe with(despite still being weaker than it). And diversions help make attacks more guaranteed rather than just blatantly using the attack.

Again, how was he blitzed when he reacted to everything comfortably? Yes, the rasengan is included, he put his hands to block a direct hit like you admit.

He is slower than BSM since he couldn't ever tag BSM Naruto that entire fight, yet Naruto one shotted him and tagged him with the rasengan he barely blocked and still took damage from. He did react to that rasengan, but he was clearly taken off guard and barely got the block off as he decided to block it and took damage rather than dodge it. BSM Naruto isn't much faster than Toneri, but he is faster than him.

As it shows, you have the tendency to exaggerate things. Even when I never said Naruto was "waaY' faster than Toneri, that's how you took it. And now you made this meaningless "Naruto is much faster than toneri" category despite me not saying it.

Sure, toneri and naruto were not hitting each other. Okay, If they weren't hitting each other and naruto is so much faster, stronger and more powerful than toneri, how come the fight lasted an hour? Somehow, naruto and toneri had to basically be on the same level for the fight to even last that long.

Putting words into my mouth. No wonder you made this meaningless category complaining over some shit I never said. Lmao I literally said in my last post:

"Toneri is only as fast as a nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto(But let's just say 100% KCM Sage Mode"

Which now I've conceded it's BSM, but a nerfed BSM(which wouldn't change anything whether it was nerfed or not). Point is that's the exact opposite of me saying he's "waay faster" than Toneri and you're putting words in my mouth and lying, again.

You sure about that? Naruto's facial expression and the whole scene itself strongly suggest he was hit. Do you have anything official explicitly telling us he wasn't hit?

He took 0 damage. BSM wouldn't have brushed off an attack like that with no bruises as if Toneri shot a toothpick at him. And I know you're trying to copy me and do this whole "show me official facts" thing since I have to say it to you a lot, but this is one of those moments where you use your brain to figure it out since there obviously isn't factual proof telling us it's one or the other. And since your logic is based off a facial expression, and mine is based off whether or not Naruto was damaged and that he had clones prepared to used against Toneri, I believe my assumption is the more credible one.

Naruto jumped towards toneri when the latter had already created GWRE

He dodged the beam, then decided to follow it anyway into the split rather than take advantage of his much greater speed and punch toneri or rasengan his face,

Mocking someone doesn't work when you're the laughing stock. Lmao

toneri didn't see this happen because he was so much slower than naruto,

Or because there's a moon-long beam in front of his face, goofy?

naruto didn't stay far away from toneri to achieve the same thing, by being hit while he was on the ground.

Except he never got hit.

He didn't create clones before GWRE to cause a diversion anyway.

He obviously created the clones when he hid in the split, or created them as he was going down there.

He didn't end the fight earlier

Ik. He should've just went SPSM and called it a day.

It's not like naruto is slower than toneri (my opponent has made this painfully clear this is what he thinks), It's not like naruto needs time to create clones, he does that instantly:

Creating clones takes a simple hand sign. And Toneri's motion when slicing that beam was slow af. Lmao

It's not like naruto isn't aware THE EARTH IS IN DANGER. In fact, batmanplusjay is right and we should forget all these very important holes in his conclusion. Let's also disregard the much simpler conclusion that naruto was simply too slow to dodge GWRE, because clearly, only someone with the brain power of a skeleton(or a brain the size of a seed) can come up with this conclusion.

Lmao, what's your point? That because the earth is in danger, Naruto got hit?

You: Naruto is much more durable than toneri's weak jutsu, even base hinata survived it.

I said this when talking about this garbage jutsu you tried saying could destroy a perfect Susano'o like you had the IQ of a brick:

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And I made this abundantly clear when I said it as well that I was referring to this move. You just feel like lying, exaggerating and debating lazily, y'know, the same ol same ol.

You again: Naruto dodged GWRE because he sustained no damage from it(not because he's more durable), implying toneri can harm naruto.

Wanna argue BSM Naruto can tank moon level attacks with absolutely no problems whatsoever, but Perfect Susano'o can't tank a fake tornado that Hinata was fine in? Be by guest.

So which is it?

The third option:

You're a clown, and you're not even a funny one.

My god. Forget those inconsistencies people. Batmanplusjay has wowed us with the answer to all those questions. Naruto doesn't care that the world is in danger, he doesn't give a shit about his superior speed and everything else, he doesn't care that he can just blitz toneri and end the fight in one minute. No, supposedly:

No, apparently Naruto doesn't care. If he did he'd have went SPSM and ended the fight way before it got as bad as it did. Like I told you earlier, I don't care for your reasoning and garbage logic. Just face facts.

He fights the much weaker Toneri for an hour, when he doesn't need to

Exactly.

He prolongs the risk to earth

Yup.

He randomly decided to jump into GWRE's split(or he anticipated all the way from the beginning) because he wanted to. How does this make sense to you?

It doesn't. But that's what the movie shows. It's much more rational to believe he dodged that attack and came out the split with diversions, than to give BSM Naruto feats that you can't back up for shit saying he effortlessly got hit by and tanked a moon splitting attack. If he could tank the GWRE so easily, why would Naruto bother exiting BSM and putting the chakra into his fist when Toneri shot the GWRE at him the second time before one shotting him?

Moon would still be plunging towards earth, chakra cannon could have been destroyed by the same tenseigan vessel moving the moo(yes, it can used as a weapon), toneri would still have kidnapped hanabi and caused the movie to happen anyway, so and so forth. And why would naruto use a transformation so strong on a kidnapper?

1) Naruto wasn't aware of that, no one was, that was established later. So like I said, the same reason he decided to chase Hinata in base form instead of powering up and saving her in a fraction of the time is the same reason why he didn't just blind side Toneri when he dodged the beam.

2) Because they might get away and kill Hinata? Here you go flip flopping again. First you were knees deep in the argument that Naruto was going all out and using his strongest form because people were in danger, but now all of a sudden when one of his best friends is being kidnapped, it's "lol why would he do so much for just a kidnapper? lolol". You'll say anything to try and get out of a situation, regardless if it completely contradicts your whole point.

Bro, honestly, you're annoying to debate against. Just as bad, if not worse that TheOriginalOne. I swear yall must be twin brothers or something.

Someone with more brain power than a skeleton came up with this as a legit answer.

Because it is a legit answer.

Now that I've pretty much done my best to kill his major arguments for good, let's get back to the main debate and finish this up.

You tried.. but...

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Chakra Absorption.

Your point is that we don't know if puppet reincarnation or LRE will absorb sasuke's chakra any faster than naruto's. I will admit I have no proof of this. But what is your point anyway? That toneri's rate of absorption is inversely proportional to one's chakra amount? The fact is, If those two jutsu's hit sasuke, his chakra will be gone in seconds.

You did the exact thing I told you not to do. If you dont got proof, stop talking to me about it.

Now your next point is if sasuke will dodge/teleport away from the jutsu's instead of blocking them. Well, him blocking the attack is in character for him 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,

Sasuke dodges much less frequently than he blocks. I hope you the readers understand this.

My god I really wish this debate were longer so I could see you try and prove that goofy shit. Lmao

And lastly, you want proof Toneri control's his jutsu with just thoughts. One would think, that toneri commanding the jutsu to either absorb chakra or turn it into a bomb or the fact that most jutsu in this series rely on thought would be enough evidence.

Or that wish his chakra coated on it, he can do special things with it. TSB has never, ever been shown or stated to do any of the things he does with his. And "most jutsu in this series rely on thought"? What? Why do you say shit you know you can't prove? Why do you do this to yourself?

And this isn't proof. It's speculation. You are utterly useless at gathering information or making claims that make sense

Well, when he used puppet reincarnation on naruto, he specifically aimed for naruto and no one else. Everybody else was fine while naruto was in pain from having all his chakra get absorbed.

Why is this relevant to why you think he controls his jutsu with his mind?

Gravity manipulation

He uses his hands to control gravity. Not his mind. When he pushed Naruto, threw rocks at him, when he made that torpedo, all jutsu from his hands.

The proof you require for toneri's deva path being able to crush sasuke's susano'o comes from the fact it can overcome the moon's inertia(directly proportional to it's mass) and move it continuously for a long time.

But again, Hinata, Sai, and Sakura were in that attack just fine. Not to mention, Toneri doesn't have a deva path. He doesn't have a rinnegan, he simply has jutsu similar to some of the rinnegan's abilities. And just because he's controlling the moon, does not mean any of his gravity manipulation jutsu will affect a PS. Especially since it didn't do much to base Naruto.

The energy required to do this far exceeds the energy required to destroy sasuke's susano'o.

This doesn't mean Toneri moving the moon on his own and using SWRE are at all related. Another assumption.

According to this subreddit and wikipedia, the energy required to move the moon out of orbit is 3.8 x 10^28 joules or 9.1 exatons. The chibaku tensei toneri was moving had previously stopped moving after the tenseigan vessel was destroyed. Toneri did this, and then he proceeded to push the moon towards earth continously for one hour. This is casually moon level.

Meaningless, doesn't help your argument at all.

Sasuke's susano'o durability is at best country level, which means it gets crushed easily.

My god.. how many assumptions...

As for it not harming base naruto when he used it on the latter, that can easily be explained by toneri not being serious at all. As far as he was concerned, everything was going according to plan, so he could afford to be lax.

Or that him moving the moon, and his jutsu he uses in fights aren't related. He's clearly using another force to do it, otherwise he'd have apparently ended BSM Naruto with a move that can destroy a PS.

Susano'o cannot counter toneri's gravity manipulation and sasuke has no feats on toneri's level with Almighty push. He has no feats to suggest that.

A chibaku tensei from a much weaker character destroyed the leaf village. Sasuke, on his first day of acquiring the rinnegan, put all 9 tailed beasts in a catastrophic planetary devastation. Not only that, Toneri's weaker than Sasuke. So everything here is irrelevant. Lmao.

Sensing

As I've pointed out above, touching a chakra rod, doesn't mean you can touch a TSB. Sasuke's jutsu still can't withstand the nullification effect of the TSB's, as is his body.

You didn't point out anything except that TSB and chakra rods are different. Which is common sense, as I never said or even implied they were the same.

Well no. A kurama avatar is slower than the real naruto, It's huge and as such, it's movements can be seen coming from a mile away.

It's just as fast as the real Naruto. Being bigger doesn't make it slower. A SPSM Naruto in more agile and quicker(quick and fast aren't the same), but not faster than a SPSM Kurama Avatar Naruto. The top speed is the same.

Naruto in SPSM:

Naruto then activating BM on top of SPSM:

You are wrong.

Yeah, you sure would've proved me wrong if I actually said Naruto couldn't combine BM with SPSM. Too bad I didn't.

How do you know that's what naruto intended? There's nothing to imply this and it is subject to interpretation. It's more likely that the rasengan was created because the punch failed to connect.

Except it isn't. Diversions are basic tactics used throughout Naruto in almost every fight you see.

If it was so easy to blitz toneri according to you, one would wonder why the fight lasted as long as it did.

Because Naruto wasn't fighting seriously.

According to you in fact:

Naruto knows the earth is in danger

Naruto decides not to use his most powerful mode or at least six paths senjutsu

Despite being in a weaker form and being so fast toneri never touches him, they fight for an hour.

Because he wanted to you say.

Yup. Got any reason as to why Naruto didn't power up and instantly save Hinata from the ninja at the beginning of the movie? Got a reason why he didn't use SPSM in the fight against Toneri? Got any reason why when chasing Toneri to save Hinata, he stayed in base form on Sai's birds instead of powering up and flying? No, you don't. The simple answer is because he wanted to. Or better yet, the writers wanted to.

That's for the readers to decide, not you. I don't know why you think your word matters so much.

Coming from the "I can't prove shit but I sure got some assumptions and baseless claims and flip flopping up my sleeve!" guy? And it's not up for the readers to decide, Toneri factually never landed a single blow. And you can't prove he did.

I don't need to, there is a video I posted for everyone to watch of the two hitting each other several times.

No no, don't play games. You do need to prove it. We don't live in a world where you partake in shit and don't follow the rules. In a debate, you back up your claims with facts. Not assumptions and half-assed debating like you've been doing this entire time. The video doesn't show Toneri landing a single punch or any hits at all. He got bodied.

And why don't you also explain why If naruto was faster than toneri and he was much more powerful, the fight lasted for an hour?

I'm sure I would be happy to explain that if I had ever actually said it.

Also, there's the fact that in terms of CQC, BSM naruto would destroy sasuke, not to talk of ninjutsu.

BSM Naruto would get bodied by Sasuke. Lmao. You're a piece of work. Honestly.

That's true, they were in the eye of the tornado, which is the safest part of a tornado in RL. Toneri likely knew this since he still wanted to marry hinata but wanted to get her away from naruto. At long range, sasuke may survive, but that's if he's not hit by the wing column directly.

Doesn't matter which part lands on his Susano'o. It won't affect the Susano'o. It's too weak. You can't prove it's strong enough to damage it.

If you want to say it wasn't as calm as a RL tornado, well RL tornadoes don't destroy huge chunks of kilometres of rock.

It's rock. That move is rock level. It's garbage, it wouldn't stand a chance against a PS that dwarfs meteors.

Durability:

This is not true at all. When we see the susano'o sword next to the shield, we see the shield had already been broken, so the sword did nothing to the shield.

The shield wasn't broken. It was intact. The sword literally broke it.

If the sword touched and damaged the shield, we would see the sword pierce it, and there would be a hole in the shield, not have the thing look like it was hit by an explosion which was what the Osama rasengan caused.

The shield snapped in half because a Susano'o sword went through it. There wouldn't be a "hole". The TSB isn't made of butter. Tf

Also, what are you trying to prove here? Toneri's TSB took at the very least country level force without a scratch, something sasuke caps out at based on his feats. To make things worse, sasuke has no senjutsu, making the whole effort worthless.

13 Oodama BSM Rasengan = country level? Someone should've warned you crack was bad before you tried it. And Sasuke doesn't need senjutsu to body Toneri. Toneri is trash. Lmao.

Base Rasengan>>base Chidori, the series makes this clear very early:

No, it was established that chidori is a piercing jutsu. That's why it didn't destroy the entire water tank like Naruto's did. But it did but a mean hole through it. And it's established rasengan = chidori many times in the series.

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They always canceled each other out. So idk what bs you talking again, but keep it out of this debate that's already pretty much over.

Bull.

No, that's common sense. Ffs, are you seriously gonna try and say that indirect attacks has the SAME potency as direct attacks?

So if I were to throw a grenade at your feet, you're telling me the guy in the next room over will feel the exact same impact of that grenade as you did?

They were in amped chakra avatars that were destroyed. They didn't die from the impact because they were protected from it:

I'm not talking about from the fall. I'm talking about from the attacks colliding and them dying on the spot in the sky. The reason they didn't die on the spot is because they only felt the after effect. Had Sasuke felt the full force of Naruto's double rasenshuriken, or if Naruto felt the full force of Sasuke's Indra's arrow, they would have died on the spot without question. The only reason they barely got out alive is because they felt indirect impact.

Making things worse for your fanfic, they were in the collision's sphere of effect/destruction:

Sphere's created by weaker jutsu have been shown to completely vaporize everything within their confines:

Just because surrounding areas were affected, doesn't mean those same areas felt the full effect of the attack.

So they didn't tank some "after-effect". The same thing happened with naruto and Toneri, they were engulfed in their jutsu collision sphere/cylinder.

There was no cylinder.

Nonsense as I've proven above. The explosion is way above the moon's surface, so nothing is hit and destroyed. Just like Indra's arrow and bijuurasenshuriken collision explosion.

You didn't prove shit. And Indra arrow and Bijuu double rasenshuriken collision destroyed PLENTY of surrounding lands.

I'll leave this Gif to the audience to decide.

You mean the exact same gif I posted, that doesn't prove your point at all? Not a smart move.

Sorry, I just have to repeat this. Again, for some reason only batmanplusjay understands, naruto is prolonging toneri's defeat, putting the earth in more danger by the second, not taking advantage of his supposedly superior speed and acting like an idiot, when he can end this easily.

Any other reason why he isn't in SPSM, or didn't power up any of the other times it would've been ideal to? Lmao.

So let's put what you are saying down in bite size chunks:

Naruto saw Toneri prepare GWRE

He flew towards toneri for...some reason

Toneri swings the beam on naruto

Naruto dodges the beam, then instantly decides to follow it into the hole it makes.

Toneri doesn't notice this at all, because well... he's so damn slow according to you.

Naruto does all this because he wants to

You're so much of an idiot in your attempt to exaggerate the situation, you couldn't even tell it properly. Whether or not Toneri is slow has nothing to do with him noticing Naruto go into the split.

Or, we use Occam's razor to come to the simplest and likeliest conclusion:

Naruto saw Toneri prepare GWRE

He flies towards him to attack him

Toneri swings the jutsu and naruto is too slow to react to it.

You mean the conclusion that BSM casually tanks moon level attacks even a PS from adult Sasuke can't? Lmao, I retract my statement, you're not a clown that's not even funny. You're hilarious.

My opponent's conclusion is supported by nothing. The novelization and movie do not imply this in the slightest, and as you've seen above, the gif plainly makes it clear naruto was hit.

Beg for their approval all you want, facts show he wasn't hit.

This is the best reason you can come up with? Why would naruto do something so stupid? Using Occam's razor as above, the only thing that makes sense is for naruto to have been hit by GWRE.

It's funny how you have every bullshit excuse in the world like "its a lowly kidnapper why would he power up even though he's kidnapping his future wife and might kill her?" for every other moment I could mention in the movie when Naruto should've powered up but didn't, but you seem to think "because he wanted to" is "idiotic"?

Ourmanuel wasn't playing when he said any CaV with you involved is definitely an interesting one.

The naruto that toneri fought was stronger than the one that sasuke fought based on feats. saying SPSM naruto should be stronger means nothing when sasuke wasn't evenm a threat to him in that form.

The Naruto that fought toneri was not nerfed in anyway at all. If my opponent still wants to claim that naruto was nerfed, he has to accept that sasuke fought an even more nerfed naruto. Whatever excuse he brings to explain this must also be applied to toneri as well.

Sasuke is not on naruto's level at all.

Sasuke cannot interact with the TSB's since he has no senjutsu. Him touching chakra rods(which are not the same thing and were created by a madara who didn't have Six paths senjutsu and touching an ally's TSB(meaning he turned off the disintegration effect) are not enough proof.

Sasuke is more likely to try and block toneri's jutsu than teleport away.

Sasuke's jutsu have no feats on the level required to harm toneri. Statements are just not enough.

Toneri takes this fight mid difficulty.

Comicvine is known as a site that takes feats over statements and it should apply here. Statements say that sasuke and naruto are equal, feats say they aren't.

Statements say toneri fought only BSM naruto. Analysis of feats say it doesn't matter and the abilities used in the fight say they are mostly the same thing.

Statements say naruto is faster than toneri, dodged GWRE and did a whole lot of stuff for an hour:

Common sense and the video I posted shows they are equal.

I'm not going to waste my time replying to any of this half-assed crap a penguin could counter in its sleep. I'll leave it to the audience to witness your extreme amounts of ignorance.

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#64 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#65 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

Ignore that little "chakra absorption" line randomly in my post. It's there and I can't edit the post for some reason.

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#66 Edited by deactivated-5c9011bc9c6e9 (616 posts) - - Show Bio

The passive aggressiveness and insults were entertaining

I'll vote for BatmanPlusJay I think his arguments were better

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#67 Posted by deactivated-5c531dce659a2 (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

Can I vote?

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#68 Posted by Co-Boss (433 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm gonna reread the points and vote in a bit, this cav was riddled with aggression so I'm gonna try to keep that out of the vote

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#69 Edited by Co-Boss (433 posts) - - Show Bio

@ruthlesskiller @batmanplusjay actually remove me from the vote, this cav was awful. Batmanplusjays opener was awful, then ruthless's rebuttals were awful and then you both just went to insults and saying the same things in multiple parts with not attempts of actually creatinf a good battle scenario without just insulting each other. Both of you please refrain from caving again

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#70 Edited by reaverlation (25834 posts) - - Show Bio

If I were to choose, I'd choose @ruthlesskiller since he actually seemed to make a decent case for Toneri.

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#71 Posted by ourmanuel (10502 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol, there’s some salt here.

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#72 Edited by Co-Boss (433 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: Im just trying to read through some good Cavs, and man this one was anything but that. It was fun though

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#73 Edited by ourmanuel (10502 posts) - - Show Bio

@co-boss: yeah,I wasn’t referring to you, I was referring to all the passive aggression in their posts lmao

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#74 Posted by deactivated-5c531dce659a2 (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for Ruthless his argument was bit better, and I saw no good counters for GWRE.

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#75 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@vummax: The CaV is done, and your vote sticks. But explain to me how I didn't counter GWRE, I'm genuinely wondering, cause I'm pretty sure I destroyed that argument.

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#76 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: I tried to keep it civilized and keep our bad blood from the earlier thread in that thread, but sometimes shit just don't go the way you want it amirite?

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#77 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@co-boss: I mean with your barely 200 posts, how many CaVs have you had? A quarter of your post count better be just CaVs if you here to criticize and try and tell people they can't CaV no more cause you didn't like it. You better be the grandfather of the founder of CaVs if you talking shit with that post count. Lmao

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#78 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation: His arguments would've been solid had he not picked a Sasuke that's better and much stronger than toneri in every way, shape, and possible form.

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#79 Edited by Co-Boss (433 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: lol there it is, man you can't get mad because your opener wasn't good. I haven't done a cav but I don't need that or a high post to tell you that. If you felt the cav was going down hill you should have either bounced or not do it all. I fully support that Sasuke would be to the winner just can't vote for this one. Also yes, you two should never cav each other again it does not end well at all

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#80 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@co-boss: I know my opener wasn't good, don't matter if it was or wasn't good. And I understand this CaV is bad. The only reason I replied to you was cause you overreacted like we personally attacked you or something. lmao

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#81 Posted by Co-Boss (433 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: I'm just letting you know that this cav was bad, so take it how you will

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#82 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

We need a couple more votes in.

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#83 Posted by great_black_star (3332 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm disappointed

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#84 Posted by ourmanuel (10502 posts) - - Show Bio

We all are tbh

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#85 Posted by JOVIOLMA (5573 posts) - - Show Bio
@smokak said:

The passive aggressiveness and insults were entertaining

I'll vote for BatmanPlusJay I think his arguments were better

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#86 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#87 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

Idk how people can say he won. He literally gave Naruto 2 Six Paths Sage Modes and tried saying bijuu sage mode = SPSM, without even trying to back those claims up. Lmao maybe in my next CaV, I'll create something out of nowhere and get a couple voters too

No disrespect to the voters tho

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#88 Posted by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio