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#1 Edited by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio

Toneri: (Ruthless)

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Sasuke: (PlusJay)

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Rules:

  • No BFR, win by KO/Incap/death
  • Starting Distance is 150m Apart
  • Composite Toneri(Basically boruto era but with Tenseigan) Current Anime/Manga/Novel Sasuke
  • Standard gear, morals on highly determined to win
  • Vote for the debater not the character, If I or my Opponent suspect foul play, your vote don't count
  • Refrain from giving your opinion until after the CaV is finished, do otherwise and your vote doesn't count
  • Insults by anybody will not be tolerated and your votes won't count if you do so.
  • Takes place on Momoshiki's planet on the shinju tree crater
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#2 Posted by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio

Somebody tag him for me, I'm on mobile. Thanks in advance.

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#3 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio

And what tf does bfr mean

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#5 Posted by Streak619 (7616 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio

I just realized he called me "PlusJay" ffs i need to change my username

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#7 Posted by ourmanuel (11388 posts) - - Show Bio

Lmao, this is happening? I’m so happy I had a hand on this

Tag after every post.

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#8 Posted by Lan_Fan (13274 posts) - - Show Bio

Not interested in the match-up, but 2.... interesting users...

Tag after the openers and for vote.

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#9 Edited by ourmanuel (11388 posts) - - Show Bio
@lan_fan said:

Not interested in the match-up, but 2.... interesting users...

Tag after the openers and for vote.

Lmao

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#10 Posted by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio

@ruthlesskiller: 5, you start it. And feel free to copy/paste your previous arguments from the last thread to here. Those were some really really interesting arguments you tried to use.

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#12 Posted by Streak619 (7616 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: Then 3. I don't remember CaVs being this short

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#15 Posted by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: 3 sounds okay. And I'll post between tomorrow and next week.

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#16 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Grinningf0x (1473 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after every post

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#18 Posted by KingZod (3993 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#19 Edited by deactivated-5c9011bc9c6e9 (616 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#20 Edited by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: If you can post your opener now, go ahead. Mine may take some time

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#22 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

Five posts? Boiiiii if you dont......

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#24 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w: Yeah, I guess it is alot when you think about it.

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#25 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (11151 posts) - - Show Bio

Your brain is the size of an underdeveloped sunflower seed.

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#26 Posted by ourmanuel (11388 posts) - - Show Bio

Your brain is the size of an underdeveloped sunflower seed.

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Any CaV with Ruthless is bound to be fun for all parties involved.

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#27 Edited by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (11151 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio

Toneri Otsutsuki a.k.a Tenseigan King (転生眼の王, Tenseigan no Ō)

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Bio:

Toneri Ōtsutsuki (大筒木トネリ, Ōtsutsuki Toneri) is a descendant of Hamura Ōtsutsuki and the sole survivor of the Ōtsutsuki clan's branch family on the Moon. Toneri was born into the Ōtsutsuki clan's Branch family, leading to his eyes being sealed within the Energy Vessel for the Tenseigan at birth. He was the main antagonist of the movie Naruto: the last, and he is a minor protagonist in Boruto. He is currently frozen for ten thousand years.

Feats

Since most of his feats come from his fight with naruto at the movie's climax, I'll post the video and explain the imressiveness of the feats

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Chakra Absorption

Toneri can use two jutsu's that can easily drain an opponent of their chakra in seconds. Localised Rebirth Explosion:

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And Puppet Cursing Sphere(at 10:23):

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This is important because the opponent he drained in both cases was naruto, someone whose chakra reserves exceed sasuke's. Since Toneri could drain naruto so fast, he's going to have a much easier time absorbing sasuke's chakra..

Gravity manipulation

As soon as the video starts, Toneri begins to move the moon and does so for an hour going by Gaara's request to the raikage. Even after getting defeated by naruto and losing his tenseigan, he is still powerful enough to force the moon towards earth. He also uses the rocks formed from the destruction of the moon's surface to attack naruto(4: 57). His golem can also manipulate gravity as well, using it to repair itself and throw meteors at kurama(3:25). Keep in mind Toneri is doing all of this simultaneously and casually.

Toneri's feats with his gravity manipulation blow sasuke's out of the water. So if they are forced to graviduke it out, toneri will easily overwhelm sasuke.

Sensing

Toneri's Sensing makes his perception and reflexes better than the byakugan eyesight:

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With Six Paths Senjutsu, he has access to better sensing through scaling from naruto who could react to a being that existed in another dimension:

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As well as him using it to improve his reflexes:

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In the Boruto anime, despite being void of sight, Toneri's perception is vast, as he was able to watch the events on Earth unfold all the way from the moon. Episode 15.

This is important because it means he can sense sasuke's presence no matter where he is, and he can predict attacks before they are fired.

Gudodama(Truth-Seeking Balls):

Toneri can manifest Truth-Seeking Balls:

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These balls on their own are superior to dust release, an advanced nature release that turns the enemy to dust by dismantling their atoms:

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Statement that directly calls them superior:

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These balls are also proof that Toneri has six paths senjutsu:

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The Truth-Seeking Orbs are an important part of toneri's arsenal, improving his defense and forming the main part of his offense.

He can infuse his chakra into them, causing the balls to glow green, and he is able to divide them into smaller orbs and launch them as a rapid-fire barrage:

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Sasuke also has no counter to them, i.e. senjutsu.

Speed/reflexes/reactions:

Toneri is one of the fastest characters in the series and from the video, he and Naruto blitzed and bullrushed each other at high speeds around the moon for an hour. Let's get into how fast he is, through scaling with his opponent

In a younger KCM form with no sage or rikudo amps and before he befriends kurama(which boosts his form even more), naruto dodges the fourth raikage point blank:

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The raikage is stated and shown to be as fast and faster than lightning respectively, which in this universe is 3000 times faster than sound at least.

Naruto then surpasses this by befriending kurama, wherein he can move so fast, a lightning timer(kakashi) doesn't realize what's going on:

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Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In the above scans, naruto performs an action in BM before juubito and minato can use their jutsu's, which operate on thought.

1. Juubito Blitzes both Naruto and Sasuke.

2. Before Obito can fully extend his TSB (which operate on thought), before Minato can use Hiraishin (Keep in mind he just used it pointblank against the Raikage as he was less than an inch away from his face for a sneek attack, here) Naruto extended his Chakra arms to him and Sasuke

3. Naruto remembered what Minato said in that short timeframe and acted before Obito could close his hand essentially.

Naruto in Sage mode reacted to the third raikage point blank:

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This is all before his six paths chakra and senjutsu boost, which gives him similar if not greater amps than the aforementioned modes, and all four stack up together in his fight against Toneri, yet toneri is able to fight him evenly for an hour.

This proves toneri can react to sasuke comfortably

CQC:

Toneri fought naruto evenly for 1 hour before getting defeated going by the conversation Gaara has with the raikage. He touched narutomultiple times. And naruto even had trouble tagging him., giving him combat and reaction speed on naruto's level.

This means that naruto spent a long time trying everything he could against Toneri and he failed until the punch that defeated toneri.

This is important because sasuke is generally portrayed as naruto's inferior in all things combat related, so this is a massive advantage in toneri's favor.

Destructive Capacity

Toneri has some of the most destructive feats in the series. One thing to keep in mind is that he does all this with no strain whatsoever.

Here he destroys a part of the moon's surface with Localised Reincarnation Explosion:

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He uses Silver Wheel Reincarnation Explosion to destroy a large part of the moon's surface again, this time the damage done is greater:

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And finally, he cuts the moon in half:

What am I getting at? Sasuke does not have the durability to tank the second attack. The best his susano'o has tanked is the collision between his chidori and a bijuudama, and that resulted in half his susano'o being destroyed:

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His susano'o will get absorbed and used as fuel by LRE, get pulverized by SWRE and it will get cut in half by GWRE.

Durability

The part of my characters abilities that is often downplayed or outright ignored. Well, I'm here to change that.

TSB durability:

Jubito had his lattice shield destroyed by 9 odama rasengan from 50% BM SM Naruto:

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Toneri, on the other hand, just assembled some gudodama into a dome, then it got hit by 13 odama rasengan from 100% BSM Naruto (with a passive rikudo boost I.e six paths chakra boost) and his shield wasn't even scratched:

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Before you guys bring up his tsb being destroyed by one rasengan from the inside, take a look at this:

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This proves two things:

  • The 100% BSM rasengan(with passive six paths chakra boost) that hit toneri and broke through the tsb dome is equal to gai's final step evening elephant(basically, it's on the same level as The last sasuke's chidori, and is consistent with planetary rasengan being equal to SWRE)
  • Toneri only loses a miniscule part of his chakra cloak, thus putting the durability of his chakra cloak at way above what sasuke has been shown to output with his chidori

Main durability:

His chakra cloak can withstand the collision between his SWRE and planetary rasengan(5:36) without taking damage:

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And finally, the punch:

Naruto’s final attack in The Last is basically just a very, very, very strong punch. He focuses the entirety of his 100% BSM chakra(with six paths chakra boost) into a single arm, and uses that arm to block Toneri’s moon cutting beam. Hell, its beyond blocking. He completely negates the thing.

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And then, he proceeds to switch all the energy into his trusty right and delivers the mightiest straight in the entire series.

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This punch should be greater than the moon cutting GWRE, seeing as how the jutsu failed to scratch naruto's chakra cloak and the punch had to be powerful enough to overcome the force the GWRE packed. This is supported by:

Naruto's chakra cloak being absorbed by Toneri after the punch and used to power puppet reincarnation, a jutsu stated to be capable of destroying the world

Toneri not losing his chakra cloak when he uses his techniques. It was established in the manga that characters with chakra modes or cloaks lose their forms if they put too much chakra into a technique

Naruto can initially only form two rasenshuriken in sage mode before he tires out, and needs to re-enter sage mode:

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His limit increases to three in the war arc:

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An attempt to create the bijuudama by his KCM clone fails and he loses his chakra mode:

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Toneri losing a miniscule part of his chakra cloak when hit by naruto's rasengan(which was equal to gai's final step evening elephant), that he immediately replaced, yet lost all his chakra mode when hit by that punch.

So what does this prove? Sasuke has no way of harming toneri based on his best destructive feat, the punch that defeated toneri was moon level in striking power at least, and toneri's cloak is almost if not just as durable as 100% BSM chakra cloak(with rikudo chakra boost), seeing as he was defeated by a punch using all that chakra to amp it up.

Counters and Debunks of common arguments used against Toneri:

This section exists solely for the purpose of... What the title says. Let's get straight to the point

Toneri was defeated by BSM naruto or KCSM naruto

I won't lie this is what actually happened in the movie. Toneri is defeated by naruto in a form that is not SPSM. This causes most people to assume he's weaker than every other god tier. But the thing is, naruto has been shown to use six path senjutsu whenever he flies, so the form he uses had to have some form of six paths senjutsu in it. This is supported by:

  • Naruto still having the tailed beasts chakra within him as stated in shikamaru shinden, and the fact that shukaku himself confirms he is still in contact with naruto and gaara in Boruto ep 48.
  • Naruto having six paths chakra. Combined with senjutsu, it should give you six paths senjutsu as shown with hamura and hagoromo Otsutsuki (pre juubi jin), who had six paths chakra and combined it with senjutsu to get six paths chakra.
  • And by Obito, post juubito form. He was confirmed to have six paths chakra by kakashi, and by absorbing madara's chakra(only shukaku and gyuuki's) he formed a truth seeking orb, which can only be manifested by those with six paths senjutsu.

Naruto was nerfed in another way during his fight with toneri

Another common claim. This one states that naruto sent half of kurama or his chakra to fight the golem, and as such he was even more nerfed during his fight with toneri. Ignoring the implications of thi(half of kurama fought the golem for 1 hour, and at certain points was being overpowered by the golem), I will debunk this reasoning.

First of all, 1 BSM avatar =/= "Half" of Kuramas chakra. Naruto, Pre rikudo amp, with only Half TOTAL of Kurama sealed within him, after fighting for HOURS and handing out a portion of Kuramas and his own chakra to literally 40,000 people(twice!!) he could still produce a new BM avatar out like every 10 minutes(more or less)

I cannot say this enough times; a bijuu mode avatar is not a large portion of kurama's power. Naruto's chakra avatars were damaged and broken multiple times in the war and he just made a new one right after, without any complaint about chakra cost or exhaustion.

When Madara's wood dragon trapped Naruto's bijuu form and Naruto had to abandon it to save Kakashi and Gai from getting hit, it was no problem. He made a shadow clone and that clone summoned a whole new avatar so it could make a combined bijuu dama with gyuki to throw at the Gedo Mazo.

When Obito destroyed his avatar by slamming it into the ground, Naruto immediately stood up and made a new one.

Minato and Yin kurama (Meaning 1 half of Kurama) were powering 2 BM avatars and thousands of chakra cloaks.

BM avatars are NOT a significant portion of Narutos or Kuramas reserves...Period.

And given all that, Toneri should be spending much more chakra to move the entire moon than Naruto spends on one kyuubi avatar. So, it seems like Toneri was the one with the handicap here.

So what's the point of this section? It proves that naruto wasn't nerfed in any way, It also proves that toneri was at a greater disadvantage moving the moon throughout their fight, which is not going to be present here.

Conclusion:

  • Toneri can drain sasuke of all his chakra in one hit. Any jutsu he(sasuke) uses will also get absorbed and will be used to attack him
  • Toneri has more feats with gravity manipulation and he will overpower sasuke with it, if the battle comes to that.
  • Toneri's sensing and reflexes will allow him to perceive sasuke at any range, and in his blindspots, so amenotejikara will be useless.
  • Toneri is just as fast, if not faster than sasuke.
  • Toneri is just as skilled as sasuke in CQC so there will be no advantage for sasuke there
  • Toneri can kill sasuke in one move based on sasuke's durability feats and toneri's destructive output.
  • Sasuke has no senjutsu to affect toneri's gudodama and his attacks like kirin will not crack them.
  • Toneri is too durable for sasuke to injure based on feats.

How the battle goes down:

Toneri drains him of all his chakra in one move and then uses the jutsu to kill sasuke with an explosion.

Or they have a short fight where toneri counters and blocks all of sasuke's jutsu with his gudodama and toneri finishes him off with a SWRE or GWRE.

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#29 Edited by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio

It's up, for all who want to be tagged.

And, to batman; I really don't see the point of that quote, and as you can see, it's being used to throw insults subtly. It would be wise to delete it as you could make some people change their minds based on your behaviour here.

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#30 Posted by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by ourmanuel (11388 posts) - - Show Bio

This is more fun than I thought.

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#32 Posted by Lan_Fan (13274 posts) - - Show Bio

At least one of you know how make a proper CaV post....

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#33 Posted by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Megafanflash (776 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V. Thank god I found your original feud.

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#35 Posted by Grinningf0x (1473 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah the quote as you’re first post was a mistake

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#36 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (11151 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio

@grinningf0x: 🤷 It's not like I CaV every day. Or every couple months for that matter. I've had a few CaVs and was supposed to have more that just didn't happen. I didn't know a quote as a first mattered.

I just get into arguments with people in threads and most of the time it stays in the thread. Lmao

(Edit) Never opened a CaV either. Just responded.

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#38 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio

It's up, for all who want to be tagged.

And, to batman; I really don't see the point of that quote, and as you can see, it's being used to throw insults subtly. It would be wise to delete it as you could make some people change their minds based on your behaviour here.

I did delete it, I'll respond in a couple days or whenever I'm available

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#39 Posted by Co-Boss (442 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a little late but t4v

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#40 Posted by reaverlation (25868 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice opener! Please tag after every post

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#41 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio

Look, I'm not gonna give an entire breakdown of Sasuke and his arsenal. It's unnecessary, and I don't feel like it. So I'll just be responding to your main points like how I normally would.

@ruthlesskiller said:

Chakra Absorption

This is important because the opponent he drained in both cases was naruto, someone whose chakra reserves exceed sasuke's. Since Toneri could drain naruto so fast, he's going to have a much easier time absorbing sasuke's chakra..

Well, for starters you have to prove it "works easier" or "moves quicker" depending on how much chakra a person has. Secondly, Naruto was in base form both times this happened, first time he thought he could combat it with a rasengan and it obviously failed and the second iirc he thought the fight was over and was caught off guard(correct me if I'm wrong). Thirdly, this is easily avoidable for Sasuke, it's slow, easily react-able, and if worse comes to worse it's nothing Sasuke's switch teleport won't fix as he's been shown to be able to switch teleport even jutsu in his fight with Momoshiki;

Sasuke uses switch teleport with Toneri's chakra draining jutsu and makes it hit Toneri, and at that point Toneri is dead. He's done for.
Sasuke uses switch teleport with Toneri's chakra draining jutsu and makes it hit Toneri, and at that point Toneri is dead. He's done for.

But it wouldn't come to this, seeing as how Toneri struggled against and got bodied by a nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto missing 1/2 Kuraka(Half was in him, the other half fought the Golem, which you can see in that same video you posted I'm sure). The simple fact that Toneri did as terribly as he did against a nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto completely nullifies your entire argument that he could step to Sasuke, someone who could combat Naruto in even his strongest forms. And we clearly see Naruto in his KCM Sage Mode in the fight from the movie along with indisputable proof from the novel as well;

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As stated, Naruto was in
As stated, Naruto was in "Kurama Chakra Mode, KCM". Not Six Paths Sage Mode. This alone destroys any point you can try to make since if Toneri can't even keep up with KCM Sage Mode Naruto(a nerfed one at that), as shown he canonically can't, then there's absolutely no way he will go head to head with anyone who can casually combat SPSM Naruto.

Sasuke is a "Naruto" God tier. Toneri is at best a Naruto high tier. Not a Naruto God Tier. Therefore in comparison to any god tier like Sasuke, he is fodder. There is nothing Toneri can do that Sasuke can't effortlessly counter. Toneri just can't keep up with Sasuke, same way he got blitzed by Naruto.

Gravity Manipulation

As soon as the video starts, Toneri begins to move the moon and does so for an hour going by Gaara's request to the raikage. Even after getting defeated by naruto and losing his tenseigan, he is still powerful enough to force the moon towards earth. He also uses the rocks formed from the destruction of the moon's surface to attack naruto(4: 57). His golem can also manipulate gravity as well, using it to repair itself and throw meteors at kurama(3:25). Keep in mind Toneri is doing all of this simultaneously and casually.

Toneri's feats with his gravity manipulation blow sasuke's out of the water. So if they are forced to graviduke it out, toneri will easily overwhelm sasuke.

His gravity manipulation won't stop Sasuke from either flying in his Susano'o, which is an automatic stomp at that point, or teleporting himself with one of Toneri's TSB and hitting him with a mean chidori. Kind of like the one that destroyed half a meteor. And Toneri won't overwhelm someone who he's significantly slower than. It would be a shame if Sasuke used planetary devastation on him and blew the meteor up. An easy one shot. Kirin and chidori is also a one shot unless Toneri uses his TSB to block it.

Sensing

Toneri's Sensing makes his perception and reflexes better than the byakugan eyesight:

With Six Paths Senjutsu, he has access to better sensing through scaling from naruto who could react to a being that existed in another dimension

As well as him using it to improve his reflexes:

In the Boruto anime, despite being void of sight, Toneri's perception is vast, as he was able to watch the events on Earth unfold all the way from the moon. Episode 15.

The fact that Toneri supposedly has access to all these abilities and powers, but none of it helped him in the slightest in his encounter with Naruto makes me question if he has SPSM at all. It is illogical to believe he has SPSM but yet see him get bodied as bad as he did in his fight against an extremely nerfed Naruto since SPSM is no joke. Toneri acquired the Tenseigan through byakugan and as far as we know, all Otsutsuki have TSB and chakra rods with Momoshiki and Kaguya being prime examples, which doesn't necessarily mean Toneri has SPSM since neither Kaguya or Momoshiki has SPSM, and would explain why he lost so horribly against nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto.

In the Boruto anime, episode 53, where Toneri shows up and fights Urashiki Otsutsuki(I believe his name is) and he got yet again one shotted.

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Meanwhile Gaara and another kage(forgot his name) gave Urashiki a run for his money. Granted, Urashiki was holding back for the sake of buying time, but it's being shown time and time again that Toneri is simply a low tier Otsutsuki who got one shotted by both a nerfed Naruto and Urashiki.

A severely nerfed SPSM Naruto and Sasuke(missing most of their chakra, coupled with the fact they couldn't use jutsu) could casually combat a fused Momoshiki, and Toneri is severely weaker than Momoshiki by feats. So by scaling, and, well, common sense, Toneri can't keep up with Sasuke on any level since he's so much stronger than him. Which actually makes sense as to why he got bodied by a nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto.

This is important because it means he can sense sasuke's presence no matter where he is, and he can predict attacks before they are fired.

It's also unimportant because Toneri couldn't manage to tag Naruto in one of his weakest forms while nerfed. He got utterly bodied by Naruto(or at best held his own against Naruto) when Naruto was essentially at his worst. So how well does his "sensing" really work for him? Not to mention, Sasuke fights on par with SPSM Naruto who >>>>> Toneri and has SPSM precog as well. Sasuke manages to hit Naruto in their fight plenty of times despite the precog and despite Naruto's obvious superior physique than Toneri.

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So he would have absolutely no issue tagging Toneri.

Gudodama(Truth-Seeking Balls):

These balls on their own are superior to dust release, an advanced nature release that turns the enemy to dust by dismantling their atoms:

Statement that directly calls them superior:

Irrelevant. Sasuke has Six Paths chakra, that gives him the ability to come into contact with TSB and come out just fine. Like when Naruto gave Sasuke a TSB to fly on in the fight against Kaguya:

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These balls are also proof that Toneri has six paths senjutsu:

False. It's speculation; though I couldn't see the image you posted under this statement since rn I'm using hotspot wifi and basically my whole computer is moving in slow motion and nothing is loading unless I wait like 5 mins. You won't believe how long it took for me to wait for a simple gif to load just so I could insert it here in the gif format.

The Truth-Seeking Orbs are an important part of toneri's arsenal, improving his defense and forming the main part of his offense.

Easily countered by a Susano'o.

He can infuse his chakra into them, causing the balls to glow green, and he is able to divide them into smaller orbs and launch them as a rapid-fire barrage:

Sasuke also has no counter to them, i.e. senjutsu.

Again, Susano'o if things get bad(which they won't). Or his own speed to dodge them, like nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto has shown to be able to effortlessly do.

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Speed/reflexes/reactions:

Toneri is one of the fastest characters in the series and from the video, he and Naruto blitzed and bullrushed each other at high speeds around the moon for an hour. Let's get into how fast he is, through scaling with his opponent

LOL. He went toe to toe with a nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto for an hour.

In a younger KCM form with no sage or rikudo amps and before he befriends kurama(which boosts his form even more), naruto dodges the fourth raikage point blank:

The raikage is stated and shown to be as fast and faster than lightning respectively, which in this universe is 3000 times faster than sound at least.

Tbh, the Raikage's speed is a low bar to set for any high/god tier Naruto character. And can I see proof for this; "which in this universe is 3000 times faster than sound at least."?

Naruto then surpasses this by befriending kurama, wherein he can move so fast, a lightning timer(kakashi) doesn't realize what's going on:

Timing lightning is slow bro. Kakashi is a mid tier.

In the above scans, naruto performs an action in BM before juubito and minato can use their jutsu's, which operate on thought.

1. Juubito Blitzes both Naruto and Sasuke.

2. Before Obito can fully extend his TSB (which operate on thought), before Minato can use Hiraishin (Keep in mind he just used it pointblank against the Raikage as he was less than an inch away from his face for a sneek attack, here) Naruto extended his Chakra arms to him and Sasuke

3. Naruto remembered what Minato said in that short timeframe and acted before Obito could close his hand essentially.

Quick-thinking in tense situations such as this happens all the time in Naruto. Like when Naruto was able to perceive that Sasuke's sharingan deactivated and uppercutted him all while Sasuke was in the process of striking Naruto with a chidori. Anyway, I don't see how this proves your point.

Naruto in Sage mode reacted to the third raikage point blank:

This is all before his six paths chakra and senjutsu boost, which gives him similar if not greater amps than the aforementioned modes, and all four stack up together in his fight against Toneri, yet toneri is able to fight him evenly for an hour.

You showed a bunch of speed feats from Naruto's weaker forms against much weaker opponents than anyone SPSM went up against, and you think that's enough to say Toneri > Sasuke who combats Naruto's SPSM regularly? As shown/proven in their fight, Toneri is at best KCM Sage Mode Naruto level. The fact he went blow for blow with Naruto in that form for so long shows it. Had Naruto kicked it up a notch with Bijuu Sage Mode, SPSM or Bijuu SPSM, Toneri would've been done for long ago.

This proves toneri can react to sasuke comfortably

No it doesn't. Lmao, like I said, you showed a bunch of speed feats from Naruto's weaker forms against much weaker opponents than anyone SPSM went up against(or even bijuu sage mode), and you think that's enough to say Toneri > Sasuke who combats Naruto's SPSM regularly?

CQC:

Toneri fought naruto evenly for 1 hour before getting defeated going by the conversation Gaara has with the raikage. He touched narutomultiple times. And naruto even had trouble tagging him., giving him combat and reaction speed on naruto's level.

  1. He never touched Naruto, not once that entire fight. The only time he came close to inflicting any damage to Naruto that entire fight was when he destroyed clones that were meant to be simple diversions so Naruto could close the distance on Toneri
  2. Toneri went toe to toe with KCM Sage Mode Naruto. This alone, like I've already said many times, destroys everything you said.
  3. Naruto tagged Toneri a couple times; when he came out the ground and blitzed toneri with a rasengan, and when he one shotted him at the end. Toneri failed to tag Naruto at all.

This means that naruto spent a long time trying everything he could against Toneri and he failed until the punch that defeated toneri.

Naw he never hit Naruto that entire fight, literally.

This is important because sasuke is generally portrayed as naruto's inferior in all things combat related, so this is a massive advantage in toneri's favor.

No it isn't. Since, for the last time I will explain this to you, just because Naruto is stronger and has better feats than Sasuke, that does not mean Sasuke is "significantly" weaker than Naruto. They are still relatively equal, but you for whatever reason choose to believe that Sasuke is, and I quote, "not even base Naruto level". You said that in our last thread before we decided to CaV and it still stuns me to this day.

The difference between a Naruto vs Sasuke and a Naruto vs Toneri is simple:

  • Naruto >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toneri
  • Naruto >/= Sasuke.
  • Naruto no diffs Toneri if he goes anywhere above KCM Sage Mode Naruto.
  • Naruto beats Sasuke extremely high diff if he's going all out even in SPSM.

Destructive Capacity

Toneri has some of the most destructive feats in the series. One thing to keep in mind is that he does all this with no strain whatsoever.

Here he destroys a part of the moon's surface with Localised Reincarnation Explosion:

Naruto's chakra destroyed part of the moon. Toneri didn't do it. Sure, Toneri caused it to happen but that wasn't Toneri's DC.

He uses Silver Wheel Reincarnation Explosion to destroy a large part of the moon's surface again, this time the damage done is greater:

And finally, he cuts the moon in half:

What am I getting at? Sasuke does not have the durability to tank the second attack. The best his susano'o has tanked is the collision between his chidori and a bijuudama, and that resulted in half his susano'o being destroyed:

The second attack is wind ffs, and Sasuke's Susano'o is without a doubt enough to tank it.

His susano'o will get absorbed and used as fuel by LRE, get pulverized by SWRE and it will get cut in half by GWRE.

No, no, and no. Since Sasuke won't allow any of these things to happen to him. Toneri is slow and weak. He is literally inferior to Sasuke in every possible aspect. Sasuke wouldn't even need to use Susano'o unless Toneri brings out the Golem.

Durability:

Jubito had his lattice shield destroyed by 9 odama rasengan from 50% BM SM Naruto:

In literally the same scan you posted it shows Naruto and Sasuke combining their powers and drawing from it to perform that feat.

Toneri, on the other hand, just assembled some gudodama into a dome, then it got hit by 13 odama rasengan from 100% BSM Naruto (with a passive rikudo boost I.e six paths chakra boost) and his shield wasn't even scratched:

Naruto wasn't 100%. He had half of Kurama out of him fighting the golem. That's why he's nerfed to shit, losing 1/2 of Kurama's power is beyond significant. And you finally admit Naruto's not fighting in SPSM, you're still wrong since he's fighting in KCM Sage Mode, but at least you know it isn't SPSM. Which yet again is still mind boggling why you think someone who can barely keep up with a 50% KCM Sage Mode Naruto would stand a chance against a guy who rivals Naruto's strongest forms.

This proves two things:

The 100% BSM rasengan(with passive six paths chakra boost) that hit toneri and broke through the tsb dome is equal to gai's final step evening elephant(basically, it's on the same level as The last sasuke's chidori, and is consistent with planetary rasengan being equal to SWRE)

Absolutely not. Naruto's rasengan didn't burst through the TSB. Naruto's rasengan blasted Toneri's body through the TSB is what broke it.

Toneri only loses a miniscule part of his chakra cloak, thus putting the durability of his chakra cloak at way above what sasuke has been shown to output with his chidori

His chidori blew half a meteor to pieces without a trace. That alone would demolish Toneri.

His chakra cloak can withstand the collision between his SWRE and planetary rasengan(5:36) without taking damage:

He didn't take direct damage. They cancelled each other out. Lord knows what that planetary rasengan would've done to Toneri if a regular rasengan does this to him;

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Naruto’s final attack in The Last is basically just a very, very, very strong punch. He focuses the entirety of his 100% BSM chakra(with six paths chakra boost) into a single arm, and uses that arm to block Toneri’s moon cutting beam. Hell, its beyond blocking. He completely negates the thing.

Not possible when half the nine tails is out fighting something else. And he didn't focus all the BSM chakra into it since he literally activated BSM right after punching Toneri;

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And then, he proceeds to switch all the energy into his trusty right and delivers the mightiest straight in the entire series.

Yeah, Naruto's strong. We know.

This punch should be greater than the moon cutting GWRE, seeing as how the jutsu failed to scratch naruto's chakra cloak and the punch had to be powerful enough to overcome the force the GWRE packed. This is supported by:

He dodged that first beam. You think he tanked that?

Naruto's chakra cloak being absorbed by Toneri after the punch and used to power puppet reincarnation, a jutsu stated to be capable of destroying the world

Just curious, where do you get these names from? Is it stated in the movie or did you memorize it from the novel?

Toneri not losing his chakra cloak when he uses his techniques. It was established in the manga that characters with chakra modes or cloaks lose their forms if they put too much chakra into a technique

True. But all this would imply is that Toneri can destroy a moon, Naruto >>> Toneri so Naruto can destroy a moon, and Sasuke </= Naruto so by scaling, Sasuke should also be able to destroy the moon despite lacking the feats. But there is this statement;

No Caption Provided

Naruto and Sasuke are literally stated to being able to destroy the continent in Naruto by Shikamaru himself. Which need I remind you, is literally like all of real life's continents combined into one. Naruto's continent is huge. So it isn't far-fetched at all that Naruto and Sasuke could both individually destroy the moon since they are indeed close in power. Meaning Sasuke can use moon-level attacks or at least continent level attacks(which honestly is still far more than enough) to whoop Toneri.

Toneri losing a miniscule part of his chakra cloak when hit by naruto's rasengan(which was equal to gai's final step evening elephant), that he immediately replaced, yet lost all his chakra mode when hit by that punch.

How can there be so much bs in one statement.

So what does this prove? Sasuke has no way of harming toneri based on his best destructive feat,

But from statements from the novels, and honestly even without the novel statements, by simple scaling he would body Toneri. I was just going the extra mile by gathering that novel info to prove Naruto and Sasuke is close in power and that Sasuke at least has continent busting attacks. Which, yet again, doesn't need to be proven since Naruto and Sasuke are relatively equal and Toneri is far below Naruto.

the punch that defeated toneri was moon level in striking power at least, and toneri's cloak is almost if not just as durable as 100% BSM chakra cloak(with rikudo chakra boost), seeing as he was defeated by a punch using all that chakra to amp it up.

Whether than punch was moon level or not is debateable. But again, Naruto wasn't in 100% BSM. He was in 50% KCM Sage Mode.

Counters and Debunks of common arguments used against Toneri:

Toneri was defeated by BSM naruto or KCSM naruto

I won't lie this is what actually happened in the movie. Toneri is defeated by naruto in a form that is not SPSM. This causes most people to assume he's weaker than every other god tier. But the thing is, naruto has been shown to use six path senjutsu whenever he flies, so the form he uses had to have some form of six paths senjutsu in it. This is supported by:

Not really, it's just that SPSM gives base form amps as well like mastery of all 5 chakra natures and yin/yang. Flying just also happened to be on the list.

Naruto still having the tailed beasts chakra within him as stated in shikamaru shinden, and the fact that shukaku himself confirms he is still in contact with naruto and gaara in Boruto ep 48.

Naruto having all the tailed beasts chakra is irrelevant and has nothing to do with SPSM. Iirc Naruto was granted a piece of each of their chakra and became the "resting place" for all of them after he was granted SPSM.

Naruto having six paths chakra. Combined with senjutsu, it should give you six paths senjutsu as shown with hamura and hagoromo Otsutsuki (pre juubi jin), who had six paths chakra and combined it with senjutsu to get six paths chakra.

Hagoromo just granted him SPSM. Naruto didn't have to go through the whole "this mixed with that makes cupcakes!" thing. He was just granted SPSM from the direct source, Hagoromo himself, without the science behind it playing a factor.

And by Obito, post juubito form. He was confirmed to have six paths chakra by kakashi, and by absorbing madara's chakra(only shukaku and gyuuki's) he formed a truth seeking orb, which can only be manifested by those with six paths senjutsu.

I'm not denying that Naruto's six paths chakra amps him even in his base form, so it would naturally amp his KCM Sage Mode as well, but that six paths chakra amp alone isn't anything to think Toneri is capable of competing with Naruto in his strongest forms about. Fact is, Sasuke can compete with Naruto in his strongest forms, meanwhile Toneri cannot. This alone crushes your entire argument and proves Toneri can't beat Sasuke. Period.

Another common claim. This one states that naruto sent half of kurama or his chakra to fight the golem, and as such he was even more nerfed during his fight with toneri. Ignoring the implications of thi(half of kurama fought the golem for 1 hour, and at certain points was being overpowered by the golem), I will debunk this reasoning.

First of all, 1 BSM avatar =/= "Half" of Kuramas chakra.

But definitely most of it. If it wasn't most of it, Naruto would've been able to easily make at least 2 or 3 Kurama avatars w/o the shadow clone technique if he was overwhelmed.

Naruto, Pre rikudo amp, with only Half TOTAL of Kurama sealed within him, after fighting for HOURS and handing out a portion of Kuramas and his own chakra to literally 40,000 people(twice!!) he could still produce a new BM avatar out like every 10 minutes(more or less)

Well obviously it isn't the entirety of Kurama's chakra being used because I don't even know if Kurama could survive having all his chakra being used at once. But like I said, it's still most of it. And as a result, it's still a huge nerf to have so much chakra missing and being used elsewhere.

I cannot say this enough times; a bijuu mode avatar is not a large portion of kurama's power. Naruto's chakra avatars were damaged and broken multiple times in the war and he just made a new one right after, without any complaint about chakra cost or exhaustion.

Because Naruto himself already has a Pacific ocean of chakra. Not to mention, chakra refills over time. Kurama being nothing but chakra, he refills faster with his healing factor and all.

When Madara's wood dragon trapped Naruto's bijuu form and Naruto had to abandon it to save Kakashi and Gai from getting hit, it was no problem. He made a shadow clone and that clone summoned a whole new avatar so it could make a combined bijuu dama with gyuki to throw at the Gedo Mazo.

Even so, that's still chakra he didn't have in his fight against Toneri. So while you proved his nerf wasn't significant, it's still a nerf nonetheless in his weaker form.

And given all that, Toneri should be spending much more chakra to move the entire moon than Naruto spends on one kyuubi avatar. So, it seems like Toneri was the one with the handicap here.

Iirc isn't he using an energy vessel full of byakugan to throw the moon? That wasn't even his own chakra.

So what's the point of this section? It proves that naruto wasn't nerfed in any way,

That's a lie.

It also proves that toneri was at a greater disadvantage moving the moon throughout their fight, which is not going to be present here.

The energy vessel was destroyed, which stopped the moon from moving iirc. I'm saying iirc so much because there's many plot details of that movie and the war arc I don't remember since I hadn't watched either of those in a couple years.

Conclusion:

Toneri can drain sasuke of all his chakra in one hit. Any jutsu he(sasuke) uses will also get absorbed and will be used to attack him

It's too slow, it won't land. After it's shot at Sasuke, Sasuke has plenty of options:

  • Dodge it
  • Teleport away
  • Switch teleport him and Toneri, then almighty pull toneri so he'll be hit with his own attack
  • Almighty push it back at him

Toneri has more feats with gravity manipulation and he will overpower sasuke with it, if the battle comes to that.

Almighty push/pull, planetary devastation, Sasuke's gravity manipulation is more convenient.

Toneri's sensing and reflexes will allow him to perceive sasuke at any range, and in his blindspots, so amenotejikara will be useless.

Absolutely not, since Toneri is slow. He'd be lucky to perceive Sasuke at all in a fight.

Toneri is just as fast, if not faster than sasuke.

Sasuke wouldn't have gotten bodied by a nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto.

Toneri is just as skilled as sasuke in CQC so there will be no advantage for sasuke there

Eh, debateable. But it's irrelevant since the physical gap is too wide. So Sasuke would still body in CQC.

Toneri can kill sasuke in one move based on sasuke's durability feats and toneri's destructive output.

Based on Sasuke's destructive output, and scaling, he'd destroy Toneri.

Sasuke has no senjutsu to affect toneri's gudodama and his attacks like kirin will not crack them.

His goudama would be irrelevant with Susano'o cage to deflect them away or switch teleport to close the distance.

Toneri is too durable for sasuke to injure based on feats.

Not durable enough for a nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto.

How the battle goes down:

Toneri drains him of all his chakra in one move and then uses the jutsu to kill sasuke with an explosion.

Or they have a short fight where toneri counters and blocks all of sasuke's jutsu with his gudodama and toneri finishes him off with a SWRE or GWRE.

Short fight is Toneri gets blitzed in a hundred different ways and chidori'd. Or Sasuke uses Toneri's own attacks against him. Or puts him in a planetary devastation and blow it up. Plenty of ways for Sasuke to leave with the W.

Why you already lost the debate:

To compare Sasuke, a man who combats Naruto's strongest forms(SPSM, Bijuu SPSM, Kurama avatar, etc) to Toneri, a man who got bodied and one shotted by one of Naruto's weaker forms(KCM Sage Mode) you're implying that Sasuke isn't even KCM Sage Mode Naruto level. Which is wrong at every possible angle you try to look at it because canonically he can factually compete with Naruto and go blow for blow with him in his strongest forms. Toneri objectively cannot.

So to imply Sasuke < Toneri < KCM Sage Mode Naruto, you're completely disregarding and ignoring facts. And because of this, you already lost.

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#42 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by reaverlation (25868 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool

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#44 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

Sasuke casually bodies Toneri but it's not being applied properly into an argument.

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#46 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w: Toneri lost to a significantly weaker form of Naruto that sasuke would have casually beaten since he combats Naruto's strongest forms that toneri obviously can't step up to.

Nothing more really needs to be said. Lmao.

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#47 Posted by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay:

Yeah. I feel that I can confidently say this isn't what I or anybody else was expecting. For the sake of not repeating myself several times, I will be tackling the major claims you are making for each section. This is to mostly preserve my sanity and that of the audience.

Counters to Your "Counters"

Chakra Absorption:

Well, for starters you have to prove it "works easier" or "moves quicker" depending on how much chakra a person has

I don't have any proof but this should be common sense. Even if that doesn't convince you, it's still a fact that sasuke will have all his chakra absorbed in a few seconds by either one of these jutsu.

Secondly, Naruto was in base form both times this happened, first time he thought he could combat it with a rasengan and it obviously failed and the second iirc he thought the fight was over and was caught off guard(correct me if I'm wrong).

Naruto was not in base form the second time he had his chakra absorbed, And he wasn't caught off guard, he was looking at toneri and before he knew what happened, toneri was absorbing his chakra. Also, you assume that sasuke will not act like Naruto and try to block LRE(the only one thrown), when he doesn't even know what it is and what it does.

Thirdly, this is easily avoidable for Sasuke, it's slow, easily react-able, and if worse comes to worse it's nothing Sasuke's switch teleport won't fix as he's been shown to be able to switch teleport even jutsu in his fight with Momoshiki

Puppet reincarnation doesn't depend on speed(It is held in the user's hand and is long range), LRE is slow but sasuke doesn't know what it is and as such is as likely to tank it as he is to dodge it. As for amenotejikara, sasuke does not use the jutsu that way. He only teleports himself, his allies, and his jutsu. Why? Because of strategy. Sasuke teleporting toneri's chakra draining jutsu, when he doesn't know what they do is OOC for him. Also, sasuke has never teleported an enemy's jutsu to hit the enemy. More OOC'ness from what my opponent is suggesting.

Also, toneri controls the jutsu with his thoughts and chooses who he wants the jutsu to absorb chakra from. It's not going to absorb his chakra because he doesn't want it to.

Gravity manipulation:

His gravity manipulation won't stop Sasuke from either flying in his Susano'o, which is an automatic stomp at that point,

His gravity manipulation will destroy sasuke's susanoo, flying or not. He can use it like shinra tensei to push the the susano'o away and damage it like pain did to konoha and the gama trio and toneri's did to Naruto during his wedding, he can bombard the purple construct with rocks like he was doing to Naruto and his golem(controlled by him and using his power) was doing to the kurama construct. Toneri can also use it like a chibaku tensei and cover the susano'o in millions of tons of rock. This is all assuming sasuke even enters susano'.

Sensing:

The fact that Toneri supposedly has access to all these abilities and powers, but none of it helped him in the slightest in his encounter with Naruto makes me question if he has SPSM at all.

Toneri fought Naruto for one hour, that's enough of a counter for this.

all Otsutsuki have TSB and chakra rods with Momoshiki and Kaguya being prime examples, which doesn't necessarily mean Toneri has SPSM since neither Kaguya or Momoshiki has SPSM, and would explain why he lost so horribly against nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto.

I'm beginning to doubt if you continued watching the series after the war arc. First of all, not all otsutsuki have TSB's, secondly chakra rods are things rinnegan users can produce, and lastly, kaguya has six paths senjutsu. She is the juubi and being the juubi jinchuuriki grants you six paths senjutsu.

Sasuke manages to hit Naruto in their fight plenty of times despite the precog and despite Naruto's obvious superior physique than Toneri.

Sasuke only hit Naruto once in that fight. While Naruto was catching a fireball and naruto could still react to sasuke. If not for that fireball, sasuke wouldn't be able to touch Naruto.

Gudodama(Truth-Seeking Balls):

Irrelevant. Sasuke has Six Paths chakra, that gives him the ability to come into contact with TSB and come out just fine. Like when Naruto gave Sasuke a TSB to fly on in the fight against Kaguya:

Naruto and sasuke are allies, therefore Naruto has no reason to use the disintegrating effect of the truth seeker orbs on sasuke, so sasuke still has no way to survive direct contact with those things. And yes they can be turned on and off, like toneri when he creates a cage for hinata and she is not disintegrated, or obito when he uses the orbs to heal himself.

False. It's speculation; though I couldn't see the image you posted under this statement

Then look at the image before you jump into conclusions. That is a data book statement supported by the manga.

Easily countered by a Susano'o.

How, when I've just proven that six paths chakra doesn't give you immunity to truth seeker orbs? Ignoring that, what feats does the susano'o have to get past the defense of toneri's TSB?

Speed/reflexes/reactions:

Since you went off topic in the first three quotes, saying things that were obvious to everyone, I'll tackle the main part of your argument:

You showed a bunch of speed feats from Naruto's weaker forms against much weaker opponents than anyone SPSM went up against, and you think that's enough to say Toneri > Sasuke who combats Naruto's SPSM regularly?

Sasuke has only ever fought SPSM Naruto once, and a huge majority of the fight was off them in their chakra avatars. The only combat interaction they had was the fireball, where naruto reacted to sasuke's ameno. And you are doing the same thing as me except worse, giving SPSM naruto feats to sasuke and justifying that by saying they fight regularly, when they've only fought once, and that fight was mostly in chakra avatars.

As shown/proven in their fight, Toneri is at best KCM Sage Mode Naruto level. The fact he went blow for blow with Naruto in that form for so long shows it. Had Naruto kicked it up a notch with Bijuu Sage Mode, SPSM or Bijuu SPSM, Toneri would've been done for long ago.

Naruto used BSM(with rikudo amp). This is KCM:

No Caption Provided

This is BSM:

No Caption Provided

Now look at the form Naruto used in the movie:

No Caption Provided

It is BSM. The slitted pupils and bagua trigram say so. And he's using SPS, evidenced by him flying. You are wrong again.

No it doesn't. Lmao, like I said, you showed a bunch of speed feats from Naruto's weaker forms against much weaker opponents than anyone SPSM went up against(or even bijuu sage mode), and you think that's enough to say Toneri > Sasuke who combats Naruto's SPSM regularly?

Dude, you haven't provided feats. All you've done is say a bunch of things that have been proven wrong. And it is enough to say that toneri can react to sasuke, especially since sasuke hasn't fought SPSM Naruto more than once, and that was in a chakra avatar for the most part.

CQC:

He never touched Naruto, not once that entire fight. The only time he came close to inflicting any damage to Naruto that entire fight was when he destroyed clones that were meant to be simple diversions so Naruto could close the distance on Toneri

Tneri hit Naruto with GWRE, this alone proves this entire point wrong. Watch the video for goodness sake, they were hitting themselves several times in that fight.

Toneri went toe to toe with KCM Sage Mode Naruto. This alone, like I've already said many times, destroys everything you said.

Toneri went toe to toe with BSM Naruto, who was amped by rikudo chakra. And he was flying, evidence of six paths senjutsu. So again, you are wrong.

Naruto tagged Toneri a couple times; when he came out the ground and blitzed toneri with a rasengan, and when he one shotted him at the end. Toneri failed to tag Naruto at all.

This is false. Naruto came out of the ground and tried to punch toneri, and toneri dodged it before the rasengan, so no blitz there. An as I've said, watch the video, Naruto and toneri's were hitting each other.

Naw he never hit Naruto that entire fight, literally.

This is untrue, like I've shown.

No it isn't. Since, for the last time I will explain this to you, just because Naruto is stronger and has better feats than Sasuke, that does not mean Sasuke is "significantly" weaker than Naruto.

This is absurd, this is like saying that just because Thor has more and better feats than Loki, it doesn't mean Loki is "significantly" weaker than Thor. Feats exist for a reason.

They are still relatively equal, but you for whatever reason choose to believe that Sasuke is, and I quote, "not even base Naruto level". You said that in our last thread before we decided to CaV and it still stuns me to this day.

I never meant that. And this is irrelevant, if you can't provide feats for sasuke, just say so. Don't make statements with no basis to stand on.

Destructive Capacity:

Naruto's chakra destroyed part of the moon. Toneri didn't do it. Sure, Toneri caused it to happen but that wasn't Toneri's DC.

True. LRE uses the victim's chakra, so perhaps the explosion caused by sasuke's own chakra will be smaller since he has less than Naruto.

The second attack is wind ffs, and Sasuke's Susano'o is without a doubt enough to tank it.

Based on what feats?

No, no, and no. Since Sasuke won't allow any of these things to happen to him. Toneri is slow and weak. He is literally inferior to Sasuke in every possible aspect. Sasuke wouldn't even need to use Susano'o unless Toneri brings out the Golem.

A lot of statements and no feats to back them up.

Durability:

In literally the same scan you posted it shows Naruto and Sasuke combining their powers and drawing from it to perform that feat.

No, those rasengans were all naruto's power alone. Sasuke only created the majestic armor susano'o, which only gave Naruto durability and a sword.

Naruto wasn't 100%. He had half of Kurama out of him fighting the golem. That's why he's nerfed to shit, losing 1/2 of Kurama's power is beyond significant.

As I've shown and you refused to acknowledge; a chakra avatar is simply not a significant portion of kurama's reserves.

Absolutely not. Naruto's rasengan didn't burst through the TSB. Naruto's rasengan blasted Toneri's body through the TSB is what broke it.

It's still the same as saying that guy's final step evening elephant punching juudara's body through the TSB is what broke it. In both cases, both attacks, imparted force on the enemies body, giving it enough momentum to break the highly durable TSB shield. So moot point from you.

His chidori blew half a meteor to pieces without a trace. That alone would demolish Toneri.

His chidori was equal to naruto's rasengan and guy's final step evening elephant, Toneri tanks it easily.

He didn't take direct damage. They cancelled each other out.

That's not how attack collisions in Naruto work. This is easily proven by Naruto and sasuke's final clash at the VoTE in shippuden, where they both lost their arms. So toneri took direct damage and came out unscathed.

Not possible when half the nine tails is out fighting something else.

As proven by me before, it wasn't half of kurama at all.

And he didn't focus all the BSM chakra into it since he literally activated BSM right after punching Toneri;

That proves nothing. What stops him from simply recreating that chakra mode instantly, Like he does when toneri absorbs his chakra again?

He dodged that first beam. You think he tanked that?

He didn't dodge it. If he did, why didn't he punch toneri while the latter was cutting the moon? why did he jump out of the crater made by the split moon? Better yet, why don't you prove he dodged it?

True. But all this would imply is that Toneri can destroy a moon, Naruto >>> Toneri so Naruto can destroy a moon,

True. By feats, he can.

and Sasuke </= Naruto so by scaling, Sasuke should also be able to destroy the moon despite lacking the feats.

No. That's not how it works, sasuke has far lesser chakra than Naruto so he doesn't have the power to do so, and his techniques aren't as destructive as naruto's. So provide feats.

But there is this statement;

Which is just a statement. There are different ways of interpreting statements. We don't know if shikamaru was referring to the both of them together, or if he's talking individually, how long it will take for sasuke to do it, how he would do it, etc.

How can there be so much bs in one statement.

Prove it's BS(not that you can) or shut up.

But from statements from the novels, and honestly even without the novel statements, by simple scaling he would body Toneri.

Simple scaling? The kind that goes: sasuke< Naruto, and Naruto's > toneri, so therefore sasuke beats toneri just like that? That's dumb.

I was just going the extra mile by gathering that novel info to prove Naruto and Sasuke is close in power and that Sasuke at least has continent busting attacks.

You haven't proven anything since the beginning of your counter.

Which, yet again, doesn't need to be proven since Naruto and Sasuke are relatively equal and Toneri is far below Naruto.

In no way are sasuke and naruto equal at all. Sasuke is far below Naruto. And toneri is above sasuke by feats.

Whether than punch was moon level or not is debateable.

That punch is moon level, nothing to debate.

But again, Naruto wasn't in 100% BSM. He was in 50% KCM Sage Mode.

Proven this wrong.

Counters and Debunks of common arguments used against Toneri:

Not really, it's just that SPSM gives base form amps as well like mastery of all 5 chakra natures and yin/yang. Flying just also happened to be on the list.

No, it doesn't. Bring proof that it does or shut up.Flying has only ever been done by Naruto using six paths senjutsu. The last is just one example.

Naruto having all the tailed beasts chakra is irrelevant and has nothing to do with SPSM. Iirc Naruto was granted a piece of each of their chakra and became the "resting place" for all of them after he was granted SPSM.

It is relevant because having the chakra of all tailed beasts is one way of gaining six paths senjutsu. The proof of this is in shikamaru shinden.

Hagoromo just granted him SPSM. Naruto didn't have to go through the whole "this mixed with that makes cupcakes!" thing. He was just granted SPSM from the direct source, Hagoromo himself, without the science behind it playing a factor.

Hagoromo only granted Naruto the yang seal and six paths chakra. Hagoromo didn't grant him SPSM like that.

But definitely most of it. If it wasn't most of it, Naruto would've been able to easily make at least 2 or 3 Kurama avatars w/o the shadow clone technique if he was overwhelmed. Well obviously it isn't the entirety of Kurama's chakra being used because I don't even know if Kurama could survive having all his chakra being used at once. But like I said, it's still most of it. And as a result, it's still a huge nerf to have so much chakra missing and being used elsewhere.

In no way, have you provided proof for any of this. Your claims are meaningless without proof. A single chakra avatar is in no way a large percentage of naruto's reserves, period.

Because Naruto himself already has a Pacific ocean of chakra. Not to mention, chakra refills over time. Kurama being nothing but chakra, he refills faster with his healing factor and all.

False. Kuramas reserves dont fully replenish back to 100% at any point during the fight with the Juubi, or else he wouldnt tell us he and Naruto were drained when they fight Sasuke. This means that Naruto simply didn't send half his chakra to fight a golem.

Even so, that's still chakra he didn't have in his fight against Toneri. So while you proved his nerf wasn't significant, it's still a nerf nonetheless in his weaker form.

It was in no way a nerf, just accept it.

Iirc isn't he using an energy vessel full of byakugan to throw the moon? That wasn't even his own chakra.

More proof this guy didn't watch the fucking video, talk less of the movie. The energy vessel was destroyed, and when toneri awakened his tenseigan, he started moving the moon all by himself.

That's a lie.

It's the truth, whether you accept it or not.

The energy vessel was destroyed, which stopped the moon from moving iirc. I'm saying iirc so much because there's many plot details of that movie and the war arc I don't remember since I hadn't watched either of those in a couple years.

That's not your only problem.

Conclusion:

It's too slow, it won't land.

Both don't depend on speed.

After it's shot at Sasuke, Sasuke has plenty of options:

Dodge it

He's just as likely to try and block LRE(the only one that is thrown) since he has no idea what it does.

Teleport away

Same as above.

Switch teleport him and Toneri, then almighty pull toneri so he'll be hit with his own attack

Which won't work as explained above.

Almighty push it back at him

Which he doesn't do in character.

Almighty push/pull, planetary devastation, Sasuke's gravity manipulation is more convenient.

Sasuke's gravity manipulation is also weaker by feats. So toneri will resist it just fine.

Absolutely not, since Toneri is slow. He'd be lucky to perceive Sasuke at all in a fight.

Proven this wrong.

Sasuke wouldn't have gotten bodied by a nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto.

It was a fully powered BSM(with rikudo amp) Naruto. And it had Six paths senjutsu. So you're wrong

Eh, debateable. But it's irrelevant since the physical gap is too wide. So Sasuke would still body in CQC.

Proven this wrong. The physical gap is not as wide as you think it is, toneri is just as fast if not faster than sasuke.

Based on Sasuke's destructive output, and scaling, he'd destroy Toneri.

Sasuke's destructive output isn't enough to harm toneri as I've shown, and your scaling is faulty as hell.

His goudama would be irrelevant with Susano'o cage to deflect them away or switch teleport to close the distance.

Susano'o cage has no senjutsu to not get erased, and switch teleporting will put him in contact with the orbs directly, so he dies anyway.

Not durable enough for a nerfed KCM Sage Mode Naruto.

Proven this wrong as well.

How the battle goes down:

Short fight is Toneri gets blitzed in a hundred different ways and chidori'd. Or Sasuke uses Toneri's own attacks against him. Or puts him in a planetary devastation and blow it up. Plenty of ways for Sasuke to leave with the W.

A lot of Statements, with no feats backing them up. Toneri wins mid difficulty. I'd like to remind the readers that:

  • My opponent has not provided any feats for sasuke.
  • He has made a lot of statements which have been proven untrue.
  • He admits he doesn't know much about the series, yet he's still cock sure about his opinion.
  • He outright lies several times and ignores facts in favor of his own opinion.
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#48 Posted by RuthlessKiller (978 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by TheVivas (19446 posts) - - Show Bio

Uhhh

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#50 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4026 posts) - - Show Bio

@ruthlesskiller: Lmao, so you tell me to delete a post for having subtle insults, then right after my civilised post, you go back to passive aggressive insults and lies? You can dish it but won't take it? Am I gonna have to shit on you again?

Anyway, give me a couple days and I'll cook you.