CaV: Tohka Yatogami (TheWatcherKing) Vs Maka Albarn (pics)

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#1  Edited By pics

Fighters

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Battlefield Stipulations

  • In-Character
  • 20 meter starting distance
  • Random Encounter
  • EoS Maka vs Pre-Vol 18 Tohka

CV User Stipulations

  • There will be a total of 3 posts.
  • Opinions are to be left outside until voting is open
  • No Watcher Fan-Club members allowed

Let The Battle Begin In...

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TAEP

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TAEP. Good luck to both.

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TAEP. Here we go.

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Hm, TAEP.

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Let’s go Watcher!!!!

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TheWatcherKing

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#14  Edited By TheWatcherKing

The Lord reigneth

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Bio

Special designation disaster beings that exist in a critical space. This is what describes the existence known as Spirits within DaL.

Spirits are an existence from another dimension which destroy the world upon entering our, triggering what is known as a space quake. The initial phenomenon laid waste to the Eurasian contingent wiping out over 150 million lives, as such units called the AST(Anti Spirit team) were formed with the goal of driving off and/or eliminating spirits. While there are many spirits within the series tohka is unique in that she is one of the only true spirits who were never at one time human.

Now, the version of Tohka I am using is a composite Tohka pre Vol 18, as from that point on Tohka received amps that are likely way too much for Maka(based on the level of power I was told Maka possesses). Given Tohka still has several forms by this point I will break each one of them down for simplicity, so use this as a reference point to what form is what as I go on.

  1. Limit form Tohka is state where Tohka is only manifesting 10% of the power she has access to in her normal form. This only happens when Shidou has sealed a spirits power
  2. Spirit form tohka is her normal state, manifesting a complete astral dress as a result. When not in her limit form this typically the form she will be in
  3. Full form tohka is an amp Tohka received when she absorbed the power of all of the other spirits she had met up to that point.
  4. Inverse Tohka(Tenka) is actually her original state.

While we’re here I may as well go over what a space quake is given it’s integral to the plot of DaL. These are disturbances in Spacetime caused by a spirit traveling between dimensions and are passively created upon a spirit appearing in our world, when they appear it causes an explosion in space which spatially deletes whatever is caught in the area of it.

He had seen the site of spacequakes countless times. It was as though space itself had been eaten out, whatever was there would disappear without a trace.

DaL Vol 3

The size and range of these vary from spirit to spirit, and some can control it and trigger them whenever they want.

Power

“—The calamity that will destroy the world, Spirits.”

Excerpt From

Date A Live - Volume 01 - Dead End Tohka

Spirits are extremely powerful beings originating from another dimension, and not all spirits are created equal so how strong is Tohka specifically? Tenka directly scales to spirits like Mukuro who are stated to be capable of destroying the Earth multiple times.

Mukuro goes onto outright seal the concept of rotation for earth, stopping it from spinning which was going to destroy the planet cementing the threat level of upper class spirits.

Mukuro placed her two hands on <Michael> as she turned its tip——“<Michael>—— <Lock-Segva >!”

Towards the ground——no, she inserted the key towards the Earth and turned it around.

At that moment, with that location as the epicenter, vigorous earthquakes started to propagate through the periphery.

For the people who were standing there, it gave the impression of being near an industry-scale drilling machine.

It was as if the Earth had transformed into some sort of planetary creature that was pulsating.

The tremors began to encompass the nearby surroundings.

“…Tsk!? Wa, what!?

“……W-What’s going on!?”

“Predicament. Is this an earthquake?”

Shidou and the Spirits were stunned by the loud noise ringing their eardrums. Mukuro gave out a gentle smile as she stroked Shidou’s face with her hand.

“No longer…… need thou worry. With this…… none shall pester us.”

“Mukuro……? What did you just do?”

“——To this Earth, <Lock-Segva> hath been cast. Howbeit, a few ticks of the clock seem to be of necessity in the wake of its vastness, albeit in ultimatum, this celestial body shall cease all motion.”

“What?”

Shidou was momentarily stunned as he stumbled on his words. However, Mukuro did not appear to notice Shidou’s expression, her smile becoming more unnerving as she continued to speak.

“Thus, all beings which cumber will perish. Nushi-sama shall with Muku bear company in the cosmos for aye. Hehe…… What eagerness.”

DaL Vol 15

Further proving my point is Nia Honjou, who within her demon king holds the phantom library which is an entire story world. Mukuro is directly put in the same weight class as inversed spirits (which both Tenka and this version of Nia are), alongside the likes of Kurumi who is broken in her own right. Nia is actually among the weakest spirits in the series, which is pretty telling for how strong that makes Tohka

No Caption Provided

Moving on

Defense

The light has manifested as an Astral Dress. An absolute armor that a spirit always wears, that’s it. The thick Reiryoku has formed into glowing clothes.”

Excerpt From

Date A Live - Volume 13 - Nia Creation

An astral dress is a spiritual absolute defense all spirits possess, it has been described as making a spirit invincible and that any physical force humans have can’t even scratch its hem. To deal with such an absolute defense the Anti Spirit Team(AST) uses “magic” to fight off spirits. And even then they are established to not really be able to compete with them.

“How about—a bombardment of attacks using a gun with no magic applied to them."

"…………That would also difficult. Even if by any chance we were able to pass through the barrier, the Spirit still has its AstralDress you know? Using a physical attack which is not covered in magic, we wouldn’t even cause any injury to the Spirit after all."

That is true, what Ryouko said actually does make sense.”

“The Spirits' AstralDress, can only be broken by the magic output released by the Realizer.”

DaL vol 2

“At the same time, Origami heard a small cry from somewhere with her superhearing, a tremendously loud explosion occurred where all the bullets had impacted at once.

Most probably, most of the attacks would be nullified by the AstralDress that was covering the Spirit— even the [Hermit] would most likely come out uninjured not to mention a [Princess] class Spirit.”

DaL vol 2

In essence, even utilizing “magic“ is no promise that your attacks won’t be nullified before the defenses of a spirit. Also for the record that princess class spirit is Tohka, so she scales above spirits like Yoshino.

The astral dress is basically blanket hax resistance providing defenses against

  1. Reality warping
  2. Fate manipulation
  3. Conceptual freezing
  4. Life force draining
  5. Mind control
  6. Death manipulation
  7. Power suppression
  8. Spatial deletion

And more, if you need more scans I’ll provide them but this should be enough to get us started.

Speed

Tohka is indisputably FTL, I don’t care much about speed but you need to be able to match this cause it’s extremely cut and dry.

Mukuro states that unless DEM could follow her at LS they wouldn’t have a chance of following her.

“That's not it; DEM has even more powerful weapons called wizards which are dangerous!”

“Likewise, there exists not something that can triumph over my angel. If I become entrenched in peril, <Michael> will open a gate for me to flee. Or can this D, E, M thou speak of pursue me at the rapidity of even light?”

“That…”

DaL vol 14

Kotori keeps up with Kurumi “who moves so fast even her shadow can’t keep up”

Using a speed that not even her shadow was able to catch up with, Kurumi endlessly continued her attack on Kotori.

"Ah~hahahahahaha! Excellent! Excellent! I expected no less from a Spirit who had materialized her Angel——! It's burning, I'm all fired up!"

DaL vol 4

Tohka in her limited astral form outpaces a blast which is confirmed LS, which is Tohka at 10% of her normal power as a spirit. And her stronger forms are way faster as I will get into in my next post if needed

Shidou!”

“The next instant, his wrist was tightly gripped by a strength that threatened to dislocate his hand, pulling him away.

“Ugah!?”

Shidou couldn't help but yell, before realizing the significance of that action immediately afterwards.

In a flash, the space that Shidou had previously been in was thoroughly permeated by magnified rays of stinging light which emanated from Mukuro.”

“Supposedly, if Shidou was still blithely lost in a daze there, the life that Origami had saved would be pointlessly discarded yet again.

“Are you okay, Shidou?!”

“Ah, yeah, thanks a lot for that, Tohka.”

Shidou cast away the beaded droplets of sweat on his forehead and called out the name of the girl who had dragged him away from imminent danger.

Without a doubt, the one who rescued Shidou from that crisis was Tohka, wearing her limited Astral Dress and brandishing her angel <Sandalphon> in her hand.”

Date a live vol 15

Be it Tohka’s Sandalphon that can slice anything or Yoshino’s Zadikel that is able to intercept anything, they are probably only at around 10% of their original power. No matter how powerful they were when they were Spirits, dealing with Origami at this state can only be considered foolish.

Date a live vol 2

So every form of Tohka is blatantly FTL.

Hax

Tohka/Tenka can both cut concepts, rules, even the boundaries between worlds. Using Nahemah(Tenka’s demon king) Shidou cut the boundaries of his universe and entered into another one.

“Shidou continued as he strengthened his grip on ‹Nahemah›.

(─‹Sandalphon› was originally a sword that cuts through invisible things… rules, concepts, and even the barrier between worlds. Its opposite ‹Nahemah› is the same. However, the kind-hearted Tohka subconsciously sealed that dangerous power. By the way, you were inexperienced and couldn’t master it, human…)”

DaL vol 22

Now I want to call attention to the part that says “Tohka subconsciously sealed this dangerous power” and point out a few things

  1. A lot of Tohka’s feats happen while sandalphon is “sealed”.
  2. I have a comp Tohka(pre Vol 18) so not only is this something I have access to
  3. But Tenka herself had never sealed it away, it’s something she always had access to.

Tohka already had statements for cutting through anything and was slicing through territories without even trying

“No—it was not something that could be called fighting back.

Not one of the attacks that the AST let out with intense spirit reached Tohka.

On the other hand, Tohka's swings, whether a direct hit or even just the shockwave, was easily blowing the wizards away and breaking their formation, as if their territory didn't exist.

It was overwhelmingly one-sided— the march of a king.

Excerpt From

Date A Live - Volume 01 - Dead End Tohka

When Tenka unleashed an attack straight all caught within had their existence destroyed. This isn’t hyperbolic, nor an exaggeration as the LN states.

But, Tohka swung her head to get it off and shouted before raising her giant sword and swung it down.

"<Nahema>----[Paverschlev]!!"

It was in an instant. Shidou's view was covered in darkness.

---a sound that sounded like the sky splitting echoed nearby.

Next off, everything touching the extension of the sword Tohka was swinging, caused one line.

It had reached, the building with one part scrapped off, the ground shown below, the buildings lined up unfolding down there and the mountain visible at the furthest back in view.

And, the Reiryoku wave passed through that line and obliterated every existence in the line.

It was neither a joke nor a metaphor. Everything touching that torrent of black Reiryoku were compressed, pulverized, turned into particles and disappeared into the wind.

It was in an instant. Shidou's view was covered in darkness.

---a sound that sounded like the sky splitting echoed nearby.

Next off, everything touching the extension of the sword Tohka was swinging, caused one line.

It had reached, the building with one part scrapped off, the ground shown below, the buildings lined up unfolding down there and the mountain visible at the furthest back in view.

And, the Reiryoku wave passed through that line and obliterated every existence in the line.

It was neither a joke nor a metaphor. Everything touching that torrent of black Reiryoku were compressed, pulverized, turned into particles and disappeared into the wind.

Date a Live Vol 7

And as the scene I posted shown, not only were Kurumi clones(all equipped with their own astral dress) but bandersnatch units which also have the same magical territories AST has. Which is extremely impressive given how hax resistant astral dresses make a spirit.

The last thing I wanna touch on is Tohka’s full form, this form is one Tohka attained when she absorbed the power of the following spirits

  • Yamai Sisters
  • Miku
  • Kotori
  • Yoshino

I touched on Miku’s sound, however I’ll leave go over one ability from the following spirits.

“In the picture, lying in the park, covered with a school uniform, Shidou was being shown but—that school uniform, suddenly started to burn.”

“It wasn't that it was disappearing because it was created by a Spirit, nor was it because the sun's rays started a fire.

That's because, what was burning was not the uniform.

The uniform burned and fell, revealing the beautifully hallowed body of Shidou.

And then, the crew members of <Fraxinus> once again let out sounds of surprise.

"T-The wound is—"

That's right, the wound. The section that had turned into a gaping hole, was burning.

The embers flared up until Shidou's wound couldn't be seen anymore—then gradually died down.”

“And then after the flames finished licking, there existed Shidou's perfectly restored body.

And then—

"Nn.........hoooooooooottttttttttttttt!?"

Seeing the fire that was still smoldering on his stomach, he jumped up.

Patting his stomach with a flustered look, he extinguished the fire.

"—H-Huh? I'm... why?"

The bridge erupted.

"Wh... C-Commander, what is—”

“Didn't I say so? If Shidou dies once or twice, he can immediately start a new game."

Excerpt From

Date A Live - Volume 01 - Dead End Tohka

Tachibana Koushi

The ability Shidou has to come back to life/regenerate from lethal damage came from Kotori and it’s entirely passive. This is something Tohka would have access to as well as a bit more I can expand on in my next post

Summary

  • Tohka is casually FTL even in her weakest possible state, and obviously scales up in her highest form. Tohka shouldn’t struggle at all with Maka’s speed
  • Tohka scales to planetary
  • Tohka is extremely hax resistant with her astral dress, so unless you can proof Maka’s hax is similarly potent any attempt will be nullified.
  • Tohka can cut concepts, rules, and even the boundaries of the universe. Even when her abilities are sealed she can cut through reality altering defenses
  • I look forward to seeing your post, from what you told me Maka is powerful herself so I’m interested in seeing what she has.
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TheWatcherKing

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#17  Edited By Konohana
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Maka Albarn

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Introduction: Blood & Madness

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Madness is everywhere in this world, down to its foundation, rooted within the very human soul, to the world to the very negative thought of the human subconscious having no end and quite literally infinite. The beginning of this madness starts from the origin of the “Adolla”, a world of perception, where all of humanity's ideas, ideations aka concepts are contained within ahigher dimension of conception that encompasses Law, Truth, Mathematics, Rules, and so on. The Great Cataclysm serves as bringing everyone’s imagination into reality by a merging of the Adolla and Real Universe into oneignited into possibility through the collective human unconscious that all combine to make into despair, fueling to make the Great Cataclysm possible with passivity, apathy, rage, destruction, fear and madness all being key components due to the negative human consciousness wanting death, that is “Despair”. The Adolla is meant to embody humanities despair in more than one way like the literal historical events of humanities despair in its world of imagination which as Shinra says was a world before the Cataclysm that had reality warped the universe exactly like real-life before anyone had any fire powers, but most of all it’s a world that Shinra notes filled his mind with madness when he had traveled in the past

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And immediately blacks out from it for months. This madness that had enveloped the world before still persists where it's a crucial part to humanities collective consciousness and within the Adolla, Despair and Madness are thoughts given form from the combined collective human consciousness which exists and simultaneously doesn’t exist. Meaning that Madness for one isn’t just an aspect of Despair, but also just like Despair is formulated by the collective thoughts from humanity since what Adolla is giving form to is a magnitude of human concepts that make-up humanities vision of despair and madness throughout history and through Soul Eater we see these varying versions of Madness that exist within the human consciousness:

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Madness being the building blocks of everything in the world plus the Adolla having successfully infused with the world aka human ideation and is fundamentally the fragments of the universe’s will making it what it is, all that human ideation resulting in “Despair” and “Madness”, to Madness then replacing Despair after Shinra suppressed it essentially making Madness an amalgamation of several concepts, concepts that do have actual authority to create/embody since that’s what makes the Universe’s will as noted.

Perception, Courage & Hunt

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Soul Perception is the ability to read the soul, when really efficient at it, you can read deeper into the soul picking up personality traits even. Soul Perception ability was developed into identifying the Meisters common enemy, the Witches who would later develop a method to preventing Soul Perception from working (Soul Protect) and thus incapable of sensing them…except a few who have exceptional sensory abilities that render Soul Protect useless. With this exceptional sensory ability, they can sense through Soul Protect but to an even greater extent they can sense the hidden world of madness that normal 6th sense sensory abilities are not aware of. For this very reason, it is why Maka’s soul perception was considered incredibly dangerous to witches but also Kinshin followers, being a threat in revealing the Kinshin just like B.J would have had he not been killed, Maka was next on the list. Maka’s soul perception ability is so advanced, she’s able to pinpoint different locations with range that expands over the entire planet

Soul Eater: Chapter 89
Soul Eater: Chapter 89

And sensory perception that can see past madness mental induced attacks despite other characters like BlackStar using his 6th sense and still being manipulated by madness. Maka’s sensory perception is so immersed that she can directly see the effects given off from madness, but again also hidden madness from the Kinshin which is masked and rooted in with the very world itself completely unnoticed to sensory perception users with a 6th sense and most of all can sense madness wavelengths given off from Arachne from an entirely separate world. Maka makes usage of her soul perception ability to its utmost extent is in combination with her wavelength —>

Meister and Weapon share a spiritual connection through “soul-wavelengths” that amplifies the power of both meister and weapon, which Maka (Meister) and Soul Evans (Weapon) are and share an exceptionally powerful soul-wavelength that is applied in more than one ways but to its greatest extent, in combination with Maka’s soul perception ability and Evans piano within his own soul allows them to apply their wavelength through his "sound" transmitted directly into a person’s soul, either empowering others or through Maka’s “Anti-Demon Wavelength” cutting through the effects of madness. Wavelengths as we know can be applied into a direct attack without the need of just using your weapon

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What makes Maka’s Wavelength exceptional in this is that she doesn’t need to directly touch you for her wavelength to be applied offensively. Playing a melody from within the soul through Evan’s piano acting as a medium expanding Maka’s wavelength, she can directly attack your soul and does it conceptually as well. When it comes to Maka’s wavelength, there’s not a single variation of madness she isn’t capable of canceling or at the very least minimizing, such as Death The Kid’s madness of order which he admits cannot be used for long without Maka there to aid. Her courage acts as a vital countermeasure even from the Kinshin’s, saving BlackStar from being one-shotted from The Kinshin's madness when it was at its strongest. On top of this, Maka and Soul share a substance known as Black Blood, carrying madness within and uses it to amplify the soul, through many battles however Maka and Soul learned to apply this blood in a manner that allows them to directly harmonize with things like madness with the sound of Soul’s piano, blood that can oppose Kinshin’sand negated his attack by causing his black blood to essentially disrupt and collapse through said sound

Soul Eater: Chapter 110

Maka is no exception to the effects of Madness, once being mentally overwhelmed from it but in moments would be able to find her way back through what is defined as courage. Maka weaponizes Madness as a source for her courage, “Madness Of Courage '' basically. In weaponizing courage, Maka was able to nullify the Clown’s madness infusion, taking Maka’s soul into itself and becoming one with her. However this isn’t just generic soul absorption, because Maka is being turned into a clown and morphed to also become the embodiment of contagion madness, the Clown’s function is to absorb everything and the Clown embodying this contagion madness is put into fact by Maka(but also the guidebooks quite literally calling its existence madness itself). The Clown fails to infect Makaso it decides to use absorption even more potent than before to fuse Maka into a clown and fear crushing her only for that to fail, ending in Maka no-selling and slicing its way out of it with the usage of devil-hunt slash, an attack that is beyond her Witch-hunt slashand oneshotting the clown with her even greater resonated attack. Destroying and preventing the Clown from regenerating is a feat of regeneration negation as well

Even transforming into the very concept of Madness itself proving successful for Arachne and thus could not be effected physically…was still slain by a Devil-Hunt-Slash (stronger than before due to Soul bringing out more madness than usual), a slash Maka knew would work as it did on the Clown and heck Maka’s wavelength alone was effecting Arachne’s conceptual form. Maka by this point had showings of resisting conceptual abilities through her own Wavelength/Courage and interacting with conceptual forms w/ Devil-Hunt which later gets even better; The Kinshin had completely no-sold a Devil-Hunt slash that again, put someone like Clown down, obviously that not being enough, Maka amplified herself even more eventually turning her scythe into the piano that draws out her power and fully utilizes her courage to finally affect the Kinshinwith the “Kinshin-Hunt'', a rhythm that is continuous and uses the souls of everyone in the world, resists Kinshin madness effects where its most potent and forcefully was going to break out of the Kinshin’s world of fear had he not further strengthened the exit. For Maka, having to constantly resist a realm of fear where there was nothing but a sea of black blood, known to carry high concentrations of madness which effortlessly took down a user with the same anti-demon wavelength as Maka

Soul Eater: Chapter 87
Soul Eater: Chapter 87

And madness from the Kinshin that ended up engulfing even Crona now absorbing the one who originally absorbed him with tremendous Black Blood that had already incapacitated The Brew and Book Of Eibon, beforehand. The ``Book Of Eibon '' as established is a separate world with a literal reality warper within said world known as the table of contents who is an entity of all knowledge and the Brew being able to absorb all information, making the Black blood incapacitating both very impressive because it very blatantly failed to do so on Maka and Soul.

Power & Speed

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Ever since the end of Fire Force, new lore connecting it to what came after —> Soul Eater would benefit greatly as it changed the previously believed low-tier spectrum it had on the scale-board, now competitive with planet-level if not higher tiers. Due to just how explicit Fire Force feats are, I’ll keep it short in showcasing exactly what tier of power/speed you’d be dealing with

1# (Power)

Arthur Boyle had forged Excalibur into a being with a soul due to his delusions and mix with the Adolla, making up the Excalibur we know to be in Soul Eater in his high-stake battle with Dragon, a being that brings nothing but despair, highlighted to be the reason for the acceleration in the world’s death because of his despair and it is because of his defeat that the Cataclysm was at a temporary halt showcasing that Dragon is the strongest of the White Clad even superior to Faerie who can do things like give mass to mere atoms the ability to even exceed the earth’s with his heat and a battle between both Arthur and Dragon on planet earth is deemed “too small” to even contain their fight. In Arthur’s final moments with Excalibur, he would perform a feat that not only cut through Dragon but the Earth itself

Fire Force: Chapter 272
Fire Force: Chapter 272

Excalibur maintained this power after the recreation of the worlddue to being outside of the planet.

2# (Power)

Benimaru’s entire narrative is centered around being so unquantifiably strong even the uncollective consciousness of humanity cannot imagine his strength and sees him as completely unbeatable, which is what his doppelgänger is and to ensure that he’d kill his real version, he created an attack with the intent of blowing up the very planet, and per visuals a flame attack circling the entire global. In response, the real Benimaru blitzes and oneshots his doppelgänger mocking the fact humanity imagined such a weakling in comparison to him

Fire Force: Chapter 285

And after basically foddering someone capable of turning Earth into a firework show, the events of the Cataclysm and recreation of the world lead to Benimaru becoming even stronger than before because of his exceptionally powerful soul.

3# (Speed)

Very explicitly Shinra is stated to be able to reach faster than light speeds when accelerating and these are speeds Sho was keeping up with based on Shinra moving at lightspeed resulting in the freezing of time allowing him to invade Sho’s Severed Universe which also stops time but getting even faster after deconstructing and reconstructing to materialize back in form from the aftermath of his FTL acceleration, with Sho even commenting on Shinra’s decrease in speed during the fight. Despite Sho’s ridiculous speed though, it’s something that is reactable from characters that just aren’t Shinra, like a very early on Arthur who did get tagged but explicitly is stated to have reacted in time to Sho’s movements likely semi-avoiding a cut that could have been deeper, nonetheless, a speed people like Joker was reacting to and keeping up with. Characters like Arthur who was basically fodder to his EoS version during that time or Joker who isn’t even on the level of the top tiers (Arthur/Dragon, etc) and even being so fodder to his doppelgänger, he’s being called a snail in comparison and during that time there still existed far stronger doppelgängers such as Benimaru’s and we know that result.

The Scaling —> Soul Eater:

The Old Great Ones are seen as the gods of the world, possessed with god-level wavelengths that are all capable of plunging the world into madness. Who sits atop of all this is the Shinigami, Lord Death who was created as an Absolute God of the world and existing as this absolute being is directly translated into his power as the most powerful being. Of course, there is Asura, directly stated to be strongest out of the Great Old One’s by far prior to even becoming the Kinshin, this includes Great Old One’s like Exaclibur. Asura just after being awakened threw hands with Lord Death and Death was completely uncertain if he could even beat Asura without his Death Scythe and he very blatantly couldn’t, Asura showing direct superiority in their brief fight blasting through Death’s defenses and taking a chunk of his face

Soul Eater: Chapter 22

The Kinshin more or less is on the same tier as Death, especially after his time on the moon, where his madness wavelength actively got stronger and Crona absorbing the Kinshin with his black blood which already made him incredibly hard to damage by virtue of being a Kinshin and mixed with Black Blood that heightens the physical capabilities as well. While admittedly, Maka isn’t actually quite on par with the Kinshin, let alone Death, she was still holding her own quite well where the Kinshin failed to not only hax her but one shot with his raw power more than once and keep up with these caliber of fighters. After getting serious about killing Maka, he intended to crush her, DTK and BlackStar however it wasn’t enough to oneshot and with her Black Blood armor, she continued to take more direct attacks from the Kinshin and then did it againtaking the continuous force of Kinshin’s attacks, apart from the pressure-based attacks that are basically unavoidable, Maka could react to Kinshin’s attacks and avoid them in her base state without any Black-Blood enhancements.

Hear Our Rhythm!

To recap what you’re dealing with, I’ll be comparing Tohka’s hax to Maka’s

“Shidou continued as he strengthened his grip on ‹Nahemah›.

(─‹Sandalphon› was originally a sword that cuts through invisible things… rules, concepts, and even the barrier between worlds. Its opposite ‹Nahemah› is the same. However, the kind-hearted Tohka subconsciously sealed that dangerous power. By the way, you were inexperienced and couldn’t master it, human…)”

DaL vol 22

Interacting with other worlds to what would be conceptual or greater (?) in the case of Nahemah is also applicable to Maka regardless. After all, the world of madness is essentially that, a world entirely layered and can’t be interacted with but for Maka who is not only aware of it, combined with the fact she interacts with madness itself from that very world and Arachne framing her existence to be in a place where she can’t be reached, aka the world of madness.

No Caption Provided

And the level of potency we’re dealing with is again, a concept that is an amalgamation of several others such as law, order, mathematics, all human ideation poured within the Adolla and successfully merged with the real world thus Despair and Madness as the two end-results.

And, the Reiryoku wave passed through that line and obliterated every existence in the line.

It was neither a joke nor a metaphor. Everything touching that torrent of black Reiryoku were compressed, pulverized, turned into particles and disappeared into the wind.

Compressed, pulverized and turned into particles? Taking this at face value, this doesn’t seem anything too crazy, at least on the conceptual side given its description alone, however you did mention it being able to get through an astral dress so I’m assuming there’s a greater degree of erasure potency I’m missing here, so more detail on that is necessary, but regardless the reason I mentioned erasure on the conceptual level is because Maka had been fused with the Clown becoming one with its existence, the existence and embodiment of contagion madness itselffailed to maintain the infusion and Maka had completely recreated and destroyed the contagion madness infused within her very being

Soul Eater: Chapter 42
Soul Eater: Chapter 42

As we see, Maka is repairing her former clown infused body, so it’d take a really nutty erasure ability to prevent her from just reforming her existence when drawing onto her courage and there’s the fact her resistance would only increase later on the series, which I can go into detail if you like.

The ability Shidou has to come back to life/regenerate from lethal damage came from Kotori and it’s entirely passive. This is something Tohka would have access to as well as a bit more I can expand on in my next post

I argued Maka being able to counteract the regeneration of a Clown, which has already good resistances so I’m curious how good this revival ability is, as again Maka with Devil-Hunt or higher can conceptually slice you apart on a ridiculous level.

But to continue on the recap

  • In combination with Maka’s wavelength and Soul’s sound, she can conceptually cut her foes and Black Blood that they can also use to directly target your ability to use attacks, as they did against the Kinshin with their own Black Blood and his Black Blood being Crona’s would already make him highly resistant against things like power suppression given its feat, adding on that her sensory abilities allow to directly sense what she’s targeting such as the soul, you’d need to go null to her soul perception otherwise you’re just a direct target to all of this on a planetary scale capable of seeing into other worlds.
  • Kinshin-Hunt is both an offensive and defensive melody manifested from Soul’s piano, granting a far greater resistance increase to Maka’s already busted Anti-Demon Length since we know that a Death Scythe with an Anti-Demon Wavelength like Maka (meaning he too can interact with madness entities and resist it) was utterly drenched in Crona’s mad blood and incapacitated, meanwhile Maka resisted that same mad blood from within the Kinshin for a great duration.
  • With her ability to react to God-Tier fighters and explicitly take attacks from them several times, I don’t think Maka lacks the stats to compete.
  • I figured this debate would come to comparing conceptual abilities but I made note of Maka being able to resist more than that such as Planetary TP, Madness that can mix and tangle with order, Madness+Black Blood that can extend to separate worlds and negate the table of contents, a reality warper and being of all knowledge as well as the brew that absorbs information itself.

With that said, unless Tohka has more going for her conceptual abilities, I do see Maka edging out in that department and her ability to indirectly attack with her wavelength while also canceling abilities temporarily which for Tohka I haven’t seen much resistance against on Maka’s level. That’s just my current thoughts, but I look forward to your next response.

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Very interesting.

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Good Post.

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#25  Edited By TheWatcherKing

Know your limits

No Caption Provided

Reiryoku

Since you went out of your way to explain what madness is and what it entails I shall do the same for Reiyryoku, as this is the spiritual form of energy that powers (or in Tohka’s case forms her) a spirit. Let’s take a look at when spirit of origin was formed

At the same time, the device designed to draw out the circle-the magical furnace began to start up while growling out a low howl.

From the skies, from the earth, from the air.

The energy that resides in every substance in the world turned into dazzling light, swirling and coiling around the surroundings.

-Spirit Formula.

That was the name Elliot had given to this ritual.

Gathering all of the mana present in the world to a single focal point to create a new life.

By incorporating that power, Elliot and the others, who up until now could only tinker with a tiny amount mana through spells and books, could become all power wizards found in fantasy worlds.

"Ike, with this

"Ah. The Spirit will be born in the wake of a new world enveloping this world."

" Voluntary territory. A universal space that should only exist in humanity's imagination is being changed into reality. If the calculations are correct, the space of the Spirit being born is to the extent of covering the entire earth. The scale is enough to be called another world the neighboring world."

Date a live Vol 17

Reiryoku is basically mana that exists In everything in the world, the air/skies/water, ect. Anything that exists has it, which probably seems quite tame. However, it actually goes a step beyond this as seen in Date a Live Mukuro Route, in this Shidou absorbs the world’s mana and reality as a whole reality no longer exists. It totally vanished into nothing

1-4. By absorbing all of the Reiryoku the world/future Mukuro came from no longer exists, all things ceased to be without the existence of Reiryoku.

5. Mukuro’s original world is gone

6. “Irreparable destruction of everything, the worst end.”

What does this tell us? That Reiryoku doesn’t just exist in all things physical within the world, it is very much a spiritual conceptual form of energy that sustains the very reality of the cosmos. All things fade into nothingness without it, which explains why spirit power surpasses the limits of territories which is literally just reality warping.

No Caption Provided

1-2. Beyond the comprehension of humanity that only came into existence because of spirits, it literally is “a space of the users desires”.

So Reiryoku only exists in all things in this world, it is something that serves as the foundation for reality itself. Reality won’t exist if reiryoku doesn’t sustain it, which explains why even territories fall short to the power of the spirits and they’re quite literally just reality warpers.

Which highlights a major difference in madness’ conceptual nature and Reiryoku, madness while being a concept is dependent on physical living beings.

No Caption Provided

Like think about it, could there be a concept of fear without intelligent life to feel such an emotion? If you went out of your way to kill anyone who could feel fear the concept no longer exists, this is not to say that having feats that allow you to directly interact with/alter/destroy fear are any less conceptual but concepts that are dependent upon something are less impressive than something that fuels the very existence of reality and all the concepts that exists in it. This matters as Reiryoku is manifested as a spiritual absolute defense for a spirit

No Caption Provided

It defends a spirit against all manner of physical or spiritual harm, you need to literally be conceptual to a similar level or a reality warper to actually be able to get through the defenses of a spirit and fight them on even footing.

to the world to the very negative thought of the human subconscious havingno end and quite literally infinite.

I think this is a case of infinite used to describe something as vast, or very big rather than quite literally infinite in scale. By that same token the DaL universe is endless

“The Spirit immediately raised her staff at Shido’s head in response, emitting a ray of light.

“Uoohh…?!”

Although his body reacted, it was too late. Rays of golden chromatic light weaved into a single beam and burst forth through Shido’s head and into the endless universe at light speed.

Date A Live - Volume 14

They draw a comparison to the ocean as it‘s abundant, but that’s inherently finite.

and as the very basis for madness itself,it cannot be erased without removing “Order

This is as a result of order and madness being a matter of perspective, if everyone decided a certain viewpoint is mad then to the general populace it is but for someone who naturally thinks that way that’s “order” to them and madness to think otherwise. Likewise order if taken to the extreme can be madness, as a concept these things aren’t the same but have connections. Not to say you disagreed (though you claimed later they‘re one to one) but I did want to say they’re absolutely not the same thing even if those two things are related.

The Kinshin’s madness started to distortorder itselfas the Death Room, a separate space wouldlose its sense of physics

This isn’t a feat, not sure why this is noteworthy given the scan explains that the room(despite being a separate space) is reflects the order seen in the world and is thus MORE sensitive to this sort of thing. It’s like a mirror that shows the state of the world

No Caption Provided

Most of all, the Kinshin’s madness both spiritually and mentally drives the madness to cause others to go insane to the brink of themalmost killing themselves

Don’t leave out the fact that it was completely useless against Black star cause he has shitty sensory abilities and only effected him when they kicked in. Literally not having a good “sixth sense“ was an asset here

and the effects at their strongestis on a planetary scaleto induceFear.

….which was confirmed to be over time and would take over those who were weak of mind or already insane before those that are sane succumbed.

No Caption Provided

But I digress.

Stats

“An existance that could stop Tohka with [The Last SwordHalvanhelev] materialized, doesn't exist in this world.

Excerpt From

Date A Live - Volume 01

Power

I thought we would clear the stats section before the abilities and more direct counters cause it’s a lot more straightforward and I think we can come to an easy consensus that so far Tohka is the superior combatant, at least in this category.

Arthur Boyle had forged Excalibur into a being with a souldue to his delusions and mix with the Adolla, making up the Excalibur we know to be in Soul Eater in his high-stake battle with Dragon, a being that brings nothing but despair, highlighted to be thereason for the acceleration in the world’s death because of his despairandit is because of his defeat that the Cataclysm was at a temporary haltshowcasing that Dragon is the strongest of the White Clad even superior to Faerie who can do things like give mass to mere atoms the ability to evenexceed the earth’swith his heat and a battle between both Arthur and Dragon on planet earthis deemed “too small” to even contain their fight. In Arthur’s final moments with Excalibur, he would perform a feat that not only cut through Dragon but the Earth itself

As I understand it, earth is too small to fight on(this could mean that the planet itself could be destroyed, be it over the course of a battle or in a few attacks isn’t clear). And the big feat for this section is slicing the planet? Cool, allow me to keep this simple tohka can do the same thing.

No Caption Provided

Not only is Tohka stated to be able to split the Earth with her sword there’s 2 pieces of context that make this so much better for her.

1. Remember what I said about limited astral dress forms for a spirit? This is a state where they’re only at 10% of their normal power, so tohka at 1/10th of her base form can replicate your biggest feat. This is disregarding that Tohka has two forms superior to her standard form being Inverse(Tenka) and Full Form(when she absorbed the power of other spirits).

2. Tohka sealed away her conceptual cutting at this time, so this isn’t a result of hax. She’s blatantly outmatching your best feat when she is not at her best.

Which this is assuming Maka scales at all, something I will get to in a moment.

Speed

reachfaster than light speedswhen accelerating and these are speeds Showas keeping up withbased on Shinra moving at lightspeed resulting in the freezing of timeallowing him to invade Sho’s Severed Universe which also stops timebut getting even faster after deconstructing and reconstructing to materialize back in form from the aftermath of his FTL acceleration, with Sho even commentingon Shinra’s decrease in speed during the fight.

I want to clarify sho by no means would scale to shinra, Sho is stealing heat from the universe to slow it down while Shinra is moving so fast time is effected atomizing him from the speed he moves. Even before shinra was fast enough to do such a thing Shinra was faster than sho when not slowing down the heat of the world

No Caption Provided

Despite Sho’s ridiculous speed though, it’s something that is reactable from characters that just aren’t Shinra, like a very early on Arthurwho did get taggedbut explicitly is stated to have reacted in timeto Sho’s movementslikely semi-avoiding a cut that could have been deeper, nonetheless, a speed people likeJoker was reacting toand keeping up with. Characters like Arthur who was basically fodder to his EoS version during that time or Joker who isn’t even on the level of the top tiers (Arthur/Dragon, etc) and even being sofodder to his doppelgänger, he’s being called a snailin comparison and during that timethere still existed far stronger doppelgängerssuch as Benimaru’s and we know that result.

The rest of this is worthless inaccurate scaling, Sho absolutely doesn’t scale to Shinra’s FTL speeds at which point this entire scaling chain falls apart. To move FTL in fire force (unless you’re Shinra in his godly form) you break apart atomizing yourself. Sho was slower Shinra even before he could go FTL…. It’s just when he’s slowing down the heat of the universe that he can fight evenly with Shinra. Which means Maka is going to get blitzed, even a 10% Tohka could outpace an attack that moved at LS. The Yamai Sisters could outright statue an attack from Tenka, saving Shidou from it when it was inches away without Tenka even noticing when the Yamai were in their limited astral dress(10% power) forms. Full Form Tohka has the power of the Yamais at their strongest in addition to Miku/Kotori/Yoshino/Tohka herself.

https://imgur.com/a/h2N14gF

So even if you could prove Maka was baseline FTL(as far as I’m concerned you can’t) it wouldn’t be enough to fight on equal footing.

Why maka doesn’t scale

The foundations by which your scaling is built upon is shaky at best and let me say why

The Old Great Ones are seen as the gods of the world, possessed with god-level wavelengths that are all capable of plunging the world into madness. Who sits atop of all this is the Shinigami, Lord Death who was created as anAbsolute God of the worldand existing as this absolute being is directly translated intohis poweras the most powerful being.

I’ll ignore for the sake of argument how your absolute god in your own scans is hyped up for having a soul which can cover a city, alongside the fact that he can’t effect people who are off world by your own admission

No Caption Provided

Excalibur maintained this power after the recreation of the worlddue to being outside of the planet.

-Pics

Neither of which is flattering, the problems actually start when you scale anyone to this “absolute god”.

Of course, there is Asura, directly stated to bestrongest out of the Great Old One’sby far prior to even becoming the Kinshin, this includes Great Old One’s likeExaclibur. Asura just after being awakened threw hands with Lord Death and Death was completely uncertain if he could even beat Asurawithout his Death Scytheand he very blatantly couldn’t, Asura showing direct superiority in their brief fight blasting through Death’s defenses and taking a chunk of his face

The Kinshin more or less is on the same tier as Death, especially after his time on the moon, where his madness wavelength actively got stronger and Crona absorbing the Kinshin with his black blood which alreadymade him incredibly hard to damage by virtue of being a Kinshinand mixed with Black Blood that heightens the physical capabilities as well.

As we find out, he quite literally never has faced Death going all out. He never used power he had access to due to his own morals and ideals

He is described as so powerful because of all the power he holds, but that means what if he decides not to use it all? And like you admitted he didn’t even have his death scythe in the first fight they had. Even Kid doesn’t use the power that he has access to for the same reasons as his dad, it’s quite obvious that the writer had them abstain from using power they had to give them a moral high ground, alongside solidifying Death’s spot as the top dog in the series as he never had to unleash his full power on anyone.

While admittedly, Maka isn’t actually quite on par with the Kinshin, let alone Death

This is where your argument should’ve ended or never really should have been posted, cause if that’s the case what was the point of all this? You posted a bunch of FF feats that Maka quite literally NEVER MEETS, the only bridge between FF scaling and SE is Death himself. Death you can argue is stronger than Beni or Arthur, but by self admission Maka doesn’t scale to him so who cares? Am I supposed to believe the person who thought black star was a monster for catching a tooth from SE’s moon scales anywhere near someone who could one tap planet busters and call them weak?

Give me a reason that Maka won’t get one shot by Tohka cause I’m not seeing it.

fighters.After getting serious about killing Maka, he intended to crush her, DTK and BlackStar

Maka after Kinshin got somewhat serious

No Caption Provided

Even when she gets a buff he is bragging about how he can kill her in numerous different ways, and he tells black star Maka’s holding him back.

And none of the attacks you show have Maka taking these attacks, they’re her getting absolutely wrecked and overpowered sometimes at the same time as multiple other fighters. Maka quite frankly isn’t in the same weight class as Kinshin, and your whole argument is

  1. Death is the strongest
  2. Kinshin totally scales to death(he doesn’t)
  3. Maka can survive a few attacks with massive loads of outside help and get in some attacks while Kinshin is distracted

What makes you think she can do well against Tohka again? Someone who would tank the very attacks that are overpowering her? I’m not even seeing the speed scaling, cause no one really scales to Shinra’s speed not even death does directly.

What will Maka do in a 1v1 against someone who is in the weight class of Kinshin(more accurately above his weight class) with better speed and hax she has quite frankly never tanked before? Cause she has never fought a concept cutter so even if I pretended Tohka and Kinshin were equal in strength Maka would still get bisected(not that Maka tanked his piercing attacks) regardless.

Hax

“——Angel. [Miracles taken form]. A weapon with absolute power that spirits can be proud of.”

Date A Live - Volume 03 - Killer Kurumi

In this section I’ll be going further in-depth about what Tohka can do, I want to point out how Tohka given she has the power of the below spirits in her full form

  • Yoshino(cryokinesis)
  • Yamai Sisters(wind)
  • Miku(sound)
  • Kotori(flames/resurrection)

Would have their abilities, as an Angel‘s abilities are instinctual to the user.

And honestly I have the feeling some of the stuff you brought up has no relevance so if I don’t touch on something that’s why, if you disagree feel free to mention it in your next post and I’ll address it.

Maka’s soul perception ability is so advanced, she’s able to pinpoint different locations with range that expands over the entire planet

While standing still, focusing with Soul’s assistance. Yes soul is standard but this is a relaxed atmosphere not in the midst of battle so I don’t see the relevance, and it’s not like Tohka will be hiding anyway.

And sensory perception that cansee past madness mental induced attacksdespite other characters like BlackStarusing his 6th sense and still being manipulated by madness

He was fooled because of his sixth sense, not despite it. And I don’t see the relevance, a common application of madness in soul eater is illusions while Miku’s sound is more like hearing drugs that force you to love her and do what she says. The ability to see through illusions is irrelevant

https://imgur.com/a/tGeJlEk

And since Maka’s weapon is actually Soul(another person) you need to prove that neither maka or soul are effected by it. Even the slightest thing can throw off someone’s soul wavelength

No Caption Provided

What makes Maka’s Wavelength exceptional in this is that she doesn’t need to directly touch you for her wavelength to be applied offensively.Playing a melody from within the soulthrough Evan’s piano acting as a medium expanding Maka’s wavelength, she can directly attack your soul and does it conceptually as well.

Conceptual based on what? When was this established cause to get through the the astral dress this needs to be confirmed to be similarly conceptual to tohka. However Tohka would have conceptual sound of her own, not just for mental control but also physically restraining people(which has worked on people stronger than Miku).

No Caption Provided

And I want to clarify, if you don’t have the resistance manifesting an Angel wouldn’t be needed tohka could literally just talk and control you.

On top of this, Maka and Soul share a substance known as Black Blood, carryingmadness within and uses it to amplify the soul, through many battles however Maka and Soul learned to apply this blood in a manner that allows them to directlyharmonize with things like madness with the sound of Soul’s piano, blood thatcan oppose Kinshin’sand negated his attack by causing his black blood to essentially disrupt and collapse through said sound

I don’t see this helping much against conceptual cutting, it mostly just enhanced durability/survivability and I don’t see what harmonizing would accomplish here(though that wouldn’t be an option with the astral dress). However I want to ask what counter Maka’s black blood provides against ice manipulation that I’ve already proven freezes territories and is absolute zero?

At this point, she finally realized it. The laser that was shot at Origami was not what it seemed at all. It instantly froze all the way to the ground with a crackling sound.

“This is……”

Freezing everything upon a single touch, a dense ray of absolute zero. There was an impression of having witnessed such power somewhere before.

DaL Vol 4

Can her courage stop Maka from being frozen solid?

However this isn’t just generic soul absorption, because Maka is being turned into a clown and morphed toalso become the embodiment of contagion madness, the Clown’s function isto absorb everythingand the Clownembodying this contagion madness is put into fact by Maka(but also the guidebooksquite literally calling its existence madness itself). The Clown fails toinfect Makaso it decides to use absorption evenmore potentthan before to fuse Maka into a clownand fear crushing

None of this really seems relevant? Like tohka wouldn’t be trying to merge souls, infect Maka’s soul, or anything of the sort. It’s just like your mind is being drugged by her voice, fighting off soul absorption or fusion just isn’t important.

Even transforming into the very concept ofMadness itselfproving successful for Arachne and thuscould not be effected physically…was stillslainby a Devil-Hunt-Slash (stronger than before due to Soul bringing out more madness than usual), a slash Maka knew would workas it did on the Clownand heck Maka’s wavelengthalone was effecting Arachne’s conceptual form.

Bet, let’s compare what maka and Tohka can do.

Maka

1. Can slash and kill Arachne in a conceptual form

2. Kill a clown embodying contagion madness

Tohka

1. Remember the Phantom Library? Yes that one, the one that contains every story ever, including shonen manga and fairy tales. Which means the Phantom Library is able to freely create a world full of all the concepts and characters that exists within those stories, yet none of them had the power to leave save the one with the power of Sandalphon. Story Shidou was able to cut through the dimensional threshold despite being a fictional character to bring the cast into the real world.

The only reason tohka didn’t do this herself is cause she was in her limited astral dress form which allowed the full power of beelzebub to send the spirits to that world without their powers.

2. If you don’t like that unfortunately I have something even crazier, Tohka‘s cutting was too much for a reality warper genie type spirit who exists in a realm where dreams/realities/imagination all intertwined. Ren even called Tohka fearsome as a result of seeing the power of Sandalphon

And I mean, I already shown you that Tohka can cut concepts so why Maka having conceptual interaction feats isn’t special. Let me take this one step further by bringing up Mukuro again, who I’ve already established Tenka directly scales to given they fought to a draw 3x already. I already said how she can lock the concept of motion or even unlock Spacetime…..

No Caption Provided

…. but it’s not an exaggeration to say it can seal or unseal any concept in creation.

“Muku’s <Michael> is an absolute key. Things that are visible or cannot been seen, objects that are tangible or intangible, there is no difference in anything. There is no such thing that <Michael> cannot open without any distinction. ──Even if that gateway is some stubbornly closed off memories.”

Date A Live - Volume 17 - Kurumi Ragnarok

“The power held within Mukuro’s key-shaped angel, <Michael>.

It was an unrivaled angel with the power to literally open and close everything.

Certainty, with <Michael>’s power it may be possible to awakened the memories sealed within himself. Shidou placed his hand against his chest in an effort to suppress the sudden and violent throbbing from his heart.”

Date A Live - Volume 17 - Kurumi Ragnarok

<Michael>. 《Segva -Lock》 is one of its abilities, which seals any target’s power. Shidou had witnessed it in action before when Mukuro locked the <Bandersnatch> units, snatching away their power and rendering them to pieces of scrap.

If her angel could affect even intangible objects, then it could indeed seal Mukuro’s feelings.

DaL Vol 14

“<Michael>──<Segva>!”

Mukuro yelled out while turning her staff.

The Angel of the key <Michael> was extremely powerful. Whether tangible or intangible, anything could be sealed. ──Even if the object was the Spirit of Origin’s Angel <Ain Soph>.”

Date A Live - Volume 18

Supposing that she discovered Shidou's intentions, even his ability to seal spiritual power could very well be, in turn, sealed off like <Haniel>.

The angel capable of sealing all existences of creation faced against the ability capable of sealing a Spirit's power.

Vol 15

Sealing the power of bandersnatch (machines that use “magical” power which in DaL is reality warping), emotions, spacetime, hell it’s blatantly stated to be able to seal all existences in creation. You flexed existential contagion stuff? Mukuro sealed off the existence of the MC making the entire world forget he existed

  1. Shidou is forgotten about
  2. As I said Mukuro sealed off his existence from the world, data about Shidou couldn’t be found in fraxinus’ AI system. Just to drive the point home this isn’t a mental thing, his concept was sealed off.
  3. Haniel is sealed, which is an Angel that Shidou used to copy Michael… which is the conceptual key that locks and unlocks stuff.

As I said before, Mukuro is directly placed in the same class as inverse spirits(Which is what Tenka is) and they fought 3 times without a winner it’s clear they’re in the same tier. Quite frankly nothing you have shown puts Maka’s conceptual interactions above any spirits in all of DaL, they’re pretty basic even with me taking them 100% at face value.

Like Mukuro in her limit astral form as shown above could even seal the spirit of origin’s Ain Soph a being who passively upon being born created the neighboring world a reality that upon its inception was at least the size of earth.

Maka by this point had showings of resisting conceptual abilities through her own Wavelength/Courage

Like what? Or to be exact, which feats does she have that allow her to resist what Tohka specifically has? Cause that’s what I care about

Maka amplified herself even more eventually turning her scythe into the piano that draws out her power and fully utilizesher couragetofinally affect the Kinshinwith the “Kinshin-Hunt'', a rhythm that iscontinuousand uses the soulsof everyone in the world, resistsKinshin madness effects where its mostpotent and forcefullywas going to break out of the Kinshin’s world of fearhad he not further strengthened the exit

Though tohka can deal with any feat Maka has ever accomplished I don’t see the point in bringing up feats where Maka needed tons of outside help, its just Maka and her weapon(soul). Not black star/Kid and whoever else.

Rhythm

Interacting with other worlds to what would be conceptual or greater (?) in the case of Nahemah is also applicable to Maka regardless. After all, theworld of madnessis essentially that, a world entirely layered and can’t be interacted with but for Maka who is not only aware of it, combined with the fact she interacts with madness itself from that very world and Arachne framing her existence to be in a place where she can’t be reached, aka the world of madness

The story feat alone isn’t going to be topped for reasons that should be quite clear. PL created a world with quite possibly attributes like this, as it’s said there’s no limit to the works of literature that may appear in the library and manga is included.

And anyway the fact that she can go to other universes was never her best feat, it was just laying the groundwork for this debate. All spirits can travel between dimensions and teleport btw though not all can do what Tohka can.

And the level of potency we’re dealing with is again, a concept that is an amalgamation of several others such as law, order, mathematics, all human ideation poured within the Adolla and successfullymerged with the real worldthusDespair and Madnessas the two end-results.

Human concepts but Reiryoku as a baseline is above that.

however you did mention it being able to get through an astral dress so I’m assuming there’s a greater degree of erasure potency I’m missing here, so more detail on that is necessary

I mean I’ve listed all the hax that the astral dresses can defend against, even death/fate/reality manipulation. All spirits can survive their own spacequakes(which reminds me, spirits like Miku can trigger them at will so you need to provide feats against spatial erasure). But if you want feats against this specifically that’s fine, a Kurumi clone has a feat just for this.

https://imgur.com/a/TgBl8E2

And the best part is that she didn’t have her astral dress manifested, yet her existence wasn’t consumed. But when Tenka swings her demon king? Every existence caught in the path was destroyed, this is despite clones having astral dresses that protect against

1. Reality warping

2. Fate manipulation

3. Death manipulation

Bandersnatch were caught in the path too, which again have their own territories meaning even warping reality itself can’t save you from it.

but regardless the reason I mentioned erasure on the conceptual level is because Maka had been fused with the Clown becomingone with its existence, theexistence and embodiment of contagion madness itselffailed to maintain the infusion and Maka had completely recreated and destroyed the contagion madness infused within her very being

Corruption is not destruction, you need to prove that one slice from Tohka’s sword won’t destroy Maka’s very existence, Tohka isn’t trying to corrupt your heart she would be ridding your concept from the world.

As we see, Maka is repairing her former clown infused body, so it’d take a really nutty erasure ability to prevent her from just reforming her existence when drawing onto her courage and there’s the fact her resistance would only increase later on the series, which I can go into detail if you like.

It’s not an erasure feat, the clown is trying to change her soul and infect it with madness. If they destroyed the soul what soul would be left to feel madness? This interpretation doesn’t make sense, Kurumi’s clone coming back from CoDT is quite literally what you’re wishing Maka had and it’s not enough to survive in this fight.

I argued Maka being able to counteract the regeneration of a Clown, which has already good resistances so I’m curious how good this revival ability is, as again Maka with Devil-Hunt or higher can conceptually slice you apart on a ridiculous level.

All spirits in DaL are conceptual, and the revival is described as “starting a new game” when killed or incurring a lethal injury. So the injury is treated like it never happened and it happens endlessly as long as you don’t run out of energy, that said I don’t even think Tohka will be incurring a fatal injury given her astral dress defenses. She could also just put up a force field to further shut out attacks.

Planetary TP

Are you referring to the Kinshin? Cause if so that’s not enough, first off his “planetary TP” takes a while to actually cause the world to go mad and Maka near the end of the story got something to specifically help ward off evil which has no barring here.

No Caption Provided

Thoughts

  • I remain unconvinced of Maka’s ability to compete in stats, the scaling there seems a little… hopeful.
  • Maka likely isn’t taking a single slash, while tohka has her astral dress to nullify/negate attacks. I’m not seeing anything that would be too much for tohka
  • Tohka can easily match Maka’s versatility
  • Tohka’s feats seem to be much better at this point, but I’ll leave that for you to prove otherwise.
  • If you can’t though I do not think maka really stands much of a chance in direct conflict
  • You admitted Maka doesn’t scale to death but are still trying to do just that…. As death is the main person that bridges SE and FF in terms of scaling. And even Kinshin scaling to Death’s full power is ridiculous
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