• 82 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#1 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles of IDW comics represented by @tparks

No Caption Provided

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles of Mirage comics represented by me.

Battle in a stretch of street of New York at night.

Death or KO.

Both are told the other is a evil doppelganger.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#2 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for killerwasp
#3 Posted by Killerwasp (17284 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#4 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: We dont talk about! It was a match a year ago that never finish at all.

Avatar image for tparks
#5 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Nice! And just a thought before I forget to mention it, Donny will not have his upgraded Staff on the IDW team.

Avatar image for batman3000
#6 Posted by Batman3000 (5652 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v pleaseu

Avatar image for killerwasp
#7 Posted by Killerwasp (17284 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#8 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: OLD VS NEW!!!!

Loading Video...

Loading Video...

Hell Yeah!

Avatar image for tparks
#9 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Lol. I'll take the Partners in Kryme song any day.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#10 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Alright lets open up with the distinct here.

Mirage Turtles, the very first iteration of the entire TMNT ever. The original comic that started it. Still one of the greatest and best iterations of the group as well IMO. Back in the day when they all red bandannas, only told apart by their personalities and weapons.

No Caption Provided

Unlike your turtles, this band was focuse more on the way of the ninja in body, mind, and spirit. By this they not only use ninjitsu to fight or stealth, but unlike your turtles, Mirage ones embrace the philosophy of killing. Raphael and leonardo kill with no qaulms at all. Donny kills when he has too. Mikey being the only one who restrains from murder, but that is just him.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Another major factor of my team is highly train in more than weapon fighting arts. They train their minds to resist powerful telepaths with their ninjitsu training.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

They have mastered blind fighting on a high level.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

What I am trying to show is they have IMO way better grasp on their training, which makes sense in that their story as you said has pretty much played out. By the end of their arcs, which sadly never finished, they were operating as individuals on threats that previously take group effort.

Once this debate really gets gong, we can compare stats and foes they faced, but I will open with the best advantage the Mirage TMNT have in the fact these guys are more ninjas the the current IDW Turtles.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#11 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: That new track has a sick beat still.

Loading Video...

Just like this one. TMNT movies make good songs, I really do like them all.

Avatar image for allstarsuperman
#12 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43006 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice

Avatar image for tparks
#13 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz:

I'll admit that the originals can never be replaced, and like you said, had a longer chance to grow then the IDW turtles. However, the IDW turtles have come a long ways in the past two years. They've just recently reached the biggest milestone of the series that I will be spoiling at great length in this CaV, so consider this a warning in advance to everyone reading this. I think that the growth the turtle's have shown is something to make them elite ninja worthy of carrying on the legacy Mirage started, and I think just might be enough to get the win here.

IDW Turtles

No Caption Provided

The Mirage do have advantages like having a (nearly) completed series, and like I've admitted as you pointed out in your first post (great opener by the way), it does make sense that they would be less of students of Splinter, but masters in their own rights. I might counter this by saying that the IDW characters have reached this level now, and that they are just now starting to explore the Turtles as masters themselves.

All of the Turtes, besides Mikey, are now leaders of the Foot Clan. Lieutenants to Master Splinter, who is the new ruler of the Foot. Splinter trusts his sons to train and lead the foot clan into battle, and have them grow as the master ninjas they were originally meant to be centuries ago when the IDW turtles story really begins, and before Shredder corrupts the Foot Clan to become an army of evil.

Mikey would also be a leader of this new regime as well, but he disagrees with his family becoming an army designed to be a lethal force, since Mikey is also very against killing in the IDW universe as well, and is doing his own thing in the series right now.

Anyways, Leonardo has certainly reached the levels of any top tier street leveler. Splinter has entrusted Leonardo to teach the army of foot soldiers as he sees fit.

No Caption Provided

Leo is again the Chunin of the Foot Clan and is teaching how to use several martial arts styles at the same time, and to always note what style the enemy is using. He has them training to never mimic the enemies style, and if the enemy changes styles, then the Foot Ninja must also change styles and stay a step ahead, and never become predictable.

This is not the type of martial arts knowledge of an amateur. This is the knowledge of a master martial artist, which Leo has more then shown he is capable of in recent issues, and I will go further upon in upcoming posts.

Now here's a subject that is turning into a gray area at IDW that you brought up:

Unlike your turtles, this band was focuse more on the way of the ninja in body, mind, and spirit. By this they not only use ninjitsu to fight or stealth, but unlike your turtles, Mirage ones embrace the philosophy of killing. Raphael and leonardo kill with no qaulms at all. Donny kills when he has too. Mikey being the only one who restrains from murder, but that is just him.

The IDW turtles are certainly not ruthless killers, but I'm not sure if their morals are strict anymore. Just look at Splinter's new lessons as compared to the old lessons from early issues as he lectures an assassin of the Foot Clan for thinking that the Foot Clan is weak without Shredder's outward displays of violence.

No Caption Provided

"Oh, Foolish and impatient child. Your role is the same - only much more circumspect than under Shredder's reign. His use of violence to satisfy personal ambitions needlessly exposed the clan... Something I will not allow. There are those who would usurp our authority and a time for deadly force will most certainly come. Until then, we must remain discreet in out actions. But when we have no other alternative, we will strike our enemies as true ninja should. With heart.... ...and deadly consequence."

That's not that kind of talk that sounds like they are not willing to kill anymore. They prefer to not kill, as it helps them to remain in the shadows, but like Splinter says, if anyone was to try and threaten the authority of the Foot Clan then they will strike as true ninja, with deadly consequence.

I do believe the turtles will kill if they feel their brothers are threatened by the Mirage turtles who do use lethal force. The Mirage turtles use of lethal force just might be what pushes the IDW turtles into their own use of lethal force to protect each other. At least Raphael and Leonardo will not hesitate, as Leo has intentionally killed, and Raph has tried without interference from Splinter.

Here's Leo while confronted with Wilbur Whatley after being imprisoned by him:

No Caption Provided

If you know your lovecraftian lore, then you'll recognize that is the character from the Dunwich Horror. So to me, this isn't really the evidence needed, but it does show that Leo has no problem killing a being of pure evil like this one.

He does however do this when him and his brothers fight Slash:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Leo does try to talk Slash down, since Slash is innocent, and just was a victim of mutations that caused him to rage out, but Leo is not willing to let Slash hurt his brothers anymore. When Slash goes back into a rage and attacks, Leo ends him by stabbing him through the only vulnerable spot on his body through the shoulder between his back and front shell and into his torso. Leo did intentionally kill Slash. Slash ends up being one tough turtle though, and washes out to sea but survives this, but that doesn't change the fact that Leo intentionally used a lethal attack when his brothers were in danger.

What really makes this interesting, is that Slash was even another mutated turtle, even wearing a mask just like them. The Mirage boys, if they do decide to use lethal force on his brothers, are likely to expect this in return from Leo, who has shown that he is willing to do this, even to another mutant turtle.

That's not all though, Leo has even tried to kill Shredder while in a time travel adventure:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Leo was able to defeat second generation Shredder (I'll go more into that in a later post), and had him set up for the killing blow. The only thing that stopped him was Raph, of all people. It's not that Raph didn't want to see Shredder dead, he even said he wouldn't stop Leo if he chose to kill Shredder, there was just a lot of negative repercussions that could have happened from this act in time. For one thing, Krang would have likely destroyed all life on Earth. Leo still struggled with this decision, which shows how much he really wanted to kill there when he's weighing options of having the satisfaction of killing Shredder vs having the ENTIRE WORLD DEAD. Lol.

As for Raph:

No Caption Provided

Raph, in order to protect Casey from his drunken abusive father, since Casey was not willing to fight back, was brutally beating up the weak man, and was just about to kill him before Splinter stops Raph. While Splinter does change his stance on killing later, his lesson here wasn't so much about not killing, because he approved of Raph protecting Casey,who is considered a family member. Splinter was mostly teaching Raph that he fights with too much anger. Heck, Splinter hold a sai to Casey's dad's throat for the better part of two issues, he's not exactly quick to teach forgiveness to his enemies.

Raph, in order to protect Casey who he views as a brother, went to kill a nearly defenseless (at least at this point in the series, more on that later) drunk. I have no doubt he would kill anyone who would try to use lethal force against any of his brothers if the Mirage do attempt lethal force, and show the skill that they could pull off a lethal attack.

I'm going to cut this short here since my PC's acting a little buggy. I'll address much more later, and would really like to get into some of the differences in physicals and skills between the two families and their villains, and later devote at least some of this to the teamwork the IDW turtles have displayed. Looking forward to your next post.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#14 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks:

No Caption Provided

Mikey would also be a leader of this new regime as well, but he disagrees with his family becoming an army designed to be a lethal force, since Mikey is also very against killing in the IDW universe as well, and is doing his own thing in the series right now.

Oh Mikey, that pu$$y lol.

Anyways, Leonardo has certainly reached the levels of any top tier street leveler. Splinter has entrusted Leonardo to teach the army of foot soldiers as he sees fit.

Leo is again the Chunin of the Foot Clan and is teaching how to use several martial arts styles at the same time, and to always note what style the enemy is using. He has them training to never mimic the enemies style, and if the enemy changes styles, then the Foot Ninja must also change styles and stay a step ahead, and never become predictable.

This is not the type of martial arts knowledge of an amateur. This is the knowledge of a master martial artist, which Leo has more then shown he is capable of in recent issues, and I will go further upon in upcoming posts.

Interesting. As you know the canon of Mirage kinda branches off with Image (Vol 3) and Back to the Creators Hands (Vol 4). It interesting and grey area as many said the events of Vol3 never finish, thus never lead to Vol4, but they are in canon labeled Vol 3 and Vol 4. Furthermore the original creators help put together the fan made comics of the last two unfinish issues of Vol 3, which is cool as it they help in the effort to merge the canon of Vol 3 seamlessly into Vol 4.

Now that is out of the way, I will using feats from Vol 3 since it is part of the mirage name, backed by the creators themselves, and canonically labeled Vol 3 to Vol 4. In Vol 3, with Shredder dead, Raphael himself leads the Foot clan, and trains them as well. Though its fair to day that in Mirage comics Raph and Leo are always portrayed as near equals till Vol 4 when Leo truly reaches past Master Splinter, and goes on to battle in the Battle Nexus which is the nexus of the Multiverse of the best warriors, and Leo proves to be high ranking their.

Either way you get what I am putting out here. Matching up what IDW Leo has done by showing the top accomplishments of Mirage Raph and Leo.

Now here's a subject that is turning into a gray area at IDW that you brought up:

The IDW turtles are certainly not ruthless killers, but I'm not sure if their morals are strict anymore. Just look at Splinter's new lessons as compared to the old lessons from early issues as he lectures an assassin of the Foot Clan for thinking that the Foot Clan is weak without Shredder's outward displays of violence.

"Oh, Foolish and impatient child. Your role is the same - only much more circumspect than under Shredder's reign. His use of violence to satisfy personal ambitions needlessly exposed the clan... Something I will not allow. There are those who would usurp our authority and a time for deadly force will most certainly come. Until then, we must remain discreet in out actions. But when we have no other alternative, we will strike our enemies as true ninja should. With heart.... ...and deadly consequence."

That's not that kind of talk that sounds like they are not willing to kill anymore. They prefer to not kill, as it helps them to remain in the shadows, but like Splinter says, if anyone was to try and threaten the authority of the Foot Clan then they will strike as true ninja, with deadly consequence.

I do believe the turtles will kill if they feel their brothers are threatened by the Mirage turtles who do use lethal force. The Mirage turtles use of lethal force just might be what pushes the IDW turtles into their own use of lethal force to protect each other. At least Raphael and Leonardo will not hesitate, as Leo has intentionally killed, and Raph has tried without interference from Splinter.

Here's Leo while confronted with Wilbur Whatley after being imprisoned by him:

If you know your lovecraftian lore, then you'll recognize that is the character from the Dunwich Horror. So to me, this isn't really the evidence needed, but it does show that Leo has no problem killing a being of pure evil like this one.

He does however do this when him and his brothers fight Slash:

Leo does try to talk Slash down, since Slash is innocent, and just was a victim of mutations that caused him to rage out, but Leo is not willing to let Slash hurt his brothers anymore. When Slash goes back into a rage and attacks, Leo ends him by stabbing him through the only vulnerable spot on his body through the shoulder between his back and front shell and into his torso. Leo did intentionally kill Slash. Slash ends up being one tough turtle though, and washes out to sea but survives this, but that doesn't change the fact that Leo intentionally used a lethal attack when his brothers were in danger.

What really makes this interesting, is that Slash was even another mutated turtle, even wearing a mask just like them. The Mirage boys, if they do decide to use lethal force on his brothers, are likely to expect this in return from Leo, who has shown that he is willing to do this, even to another mutant turtle.

That's not all though, Leo has even tried to kill Shredder while in a time travel adventure:

Leo was able to defeat second generation Shredder (I'll go more into that in a later post), and had him set up for the killing blow. The only thing that stopped him was Raph, of all people. It's not that Raph didn't want to see Shredder dead, he even said he wouldn't stop Leo if he chose to kill Shredder, there was just a lot of negative repercussions that could have happened from this act in time. For one thing, Krang would have likely destroyed all life on Earth. Leo still struggled with this decision, which shows how much he really wanted to kill there when he's weighing options of having the satisfaction of killing Shredder vs having the ENTIRE WORLD DEAD. Lol.

As for Raph:

Raph, in order to protect Casey from his drunken abusive father, since Casey was not willing to fight back, was brutally beating up the weak man, and was just about to kill him before Splinter stops Raph. While Splinter does change his stance on killing later, his lesson here wasn't so much about not killing, because he approved of Raph protecting Casey,who is considered a family member. Splinter was mostly teaching Raph that he fights with too much anger. Heck, Splinter hold a sai to Casey's dad's throat for the better part of two issues, he's not exactly quick to teach forgiveness to his enemies.

Raph, in order to protect Casey who he views as a brother, went to kill a nearly defenseless (at least at this point in the series, more on that later) drunk. I have no doubt he would kill anyone who would try to use lethal force against any of his brothers if the Mirage do attempt lethal force, and show the skill that they could pull off a lethal attack.

All those show the ability to kill if it needs be, but when it comes to ruthlessness, our characters are in different ball parks. Sure you showed many good examples of extreme circumstances to kill, but even Splinter says not to kill unless you must. That is the key difference. Mirage Turtles simply kill. Prefer it actually and IMO better at it. Even Leo manage to fail to kill Slash, even if he is tough, he did not die with the intent to kill him. Mirage Turtles killed bulldozer tough Triceratons causally, and super mutant beings with insane durability on the first try. Like any skill practice, killing blows is all to easy for Mirage turtles.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Like so. In fact, unlike your turtles, the Mirage ones were train from the get go since issue #1 to kill their foes, and the first mark was killing Shredder.

No Caption Provided

In fact my TMNT are willing to use guns to murder foes!

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10

There is many comics of them picking up a gun, or blaster, and wasting foes. Humans or monsters. Donatello himself murdered Dr. Baxton in cold blood straight up.

No Caption Provided

He got all the info he could from him after holding him prisoner, and then wasted him! So in short, while IDW Raph and Leo may be willing to kill in circumstances, the Mirage Turtles, besides Mickey, will kill from the get go. They will kill from the get go, and more to it, they will be batter at it from the ease it comes to them.

I'm going to cut this short here since my PC's acting a little buggy. I'll address much more later, and would really like to get into some of the differences in physicals and skills between the two families and their villains, and later devote at least some of this to the teamwork the IDW turtles have displayed. Looking forward to your next post.

Yeah, I suppose I should kick of the physicals. When talking about the physicals, I like to say the Turtles are all roughly in the same range. Some have shown to be better fighters than others, but all shown roughly the same stats.

Agility

Lets just get this out of the way, all the turtles are agile. Able to fight and run along impossible conditions.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1) Leo from a cross leg position springs up and over a fleeing ninja.

2) Raph preforms acrobatics on a snow covered arched roof.

3) Mickey shows off insane agility on a anti grave device filled with floating polls.

4) All four brothers climbing, swinging, flipping, and running across ropes to get around.

When it comes to agility, neither side is getting a edge. Though I am showing the feats off anyway for examples of why. Now lets talk speed! Who is the fastest of the two groups? Who can blitz who? neither I wager, but regardless what feats you may have, I am confident they will only merely match these below.

Speed

First some stand alone feats for the Turtles, starting with Mickey.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

1) Mickey with the typical blaster dodging.

2) A good feat here has Donny state that Mickey moved so fast, that he could not even see him make the attack.

Donny own speed feats are not lacking either.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

1) Somersaults through the bullets.

2) Dodges Utrom fire which are backed by targeting tech.

Raph as the most imposing of the group has speed to match as well.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

1) After exclaiming the speed of the attack, he counters it fine. Spiders striking speed is very quick, and larger size would be as quick at the least.

2) Dodges massive Utrom fire.

3-4) Dodges the laser fire of Donny who tried to ambush him in laser tag lol.

5) Jumps so fast in front of this foe, the foe claims he did not even see him move.

Leo of course as the leader is no slow poke.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

1-2) Various gunfire dodging.

2-4) A great feat involving dodging the combine gunfire, and arrow attacks of two battle nexus warriors. Only the best warriors of the multi realities can fight at battle nexus, so they are good shots. Leo not only dodges and weaves between their combine assault, but he counter attacks as well with range.

5) Utrom fire being dodged.

6) Leo is shown making several attacks to this rat monsters one punch.

5) Swinging the sword so fast to leave 3 after images.

Here is some good feats of all four brothers in speed.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

1) All four Turtles dodge point blank gun fire after the shots are fired.

2-3) In this battle, a undead pharaoh uses TK to whip up blades and sharp objects in a whirlwind of blurring speeds. The Turtles react, block, and dodge the maelstrom of high speed projectiles, with only Leo getting hit in the arm by a arrow early on.

In short, when it comes to speed, I do not see either side having a advantage over the other, and these feats should cement that. In facts all stats should roughly match up, and this goes for the next category, strength.

Strength

Mikey, probably the weakest of the group, and admits to be the one not to train as seriously has great strength.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1) Strap to a table by clothing binds which he rips apart easy.

2) Strap to a operating table with leather straps, tears them easy, and while injured to boot.

3) Break the punching bag, an smashes with punches through the thick barn wall.

4) Catches a solid stone boulder thrown at him, and hurls it back easy.

Donny s the brains, but shows great strength.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

1) Both his brothers Raph and Mikey were bothering him, with one arm and swinging the nunchucks, he sends both turtles flying the other direction.

2) Grabs Carnage who melds with stone, and drags him through the wall, leaving behind the trail that tore apart the stone wall.

Raph as expected is the strongest by showings of overpowering his own brothers time and again, and has a few single feats to his name.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1) Overpowers Leo in a grapple match, and throws him through multiple 2x4s into a splintering mess.

2) Smashes a Werewolf's head so hard t dent a armored truck.

3) Pushes down a large brick Chimney onto Baxter Stockman.

4) Plows through the stone walls of a pyramid,

Leo actually has the most stand alone feats and as usual shows excellent strength.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1) Leo walks a old school steel fridge stocked with food into another room.

2) Leo in a weaken state form toxins manages to kick in half a telephone pole thick support beam.

3) Leo shoulders through a stone laid wall.

4) Future Leo shows strength to cut Carnage in half, a solid stone being who the early TMNTs could barely harm at all.

I know your going to bust out feats as well, but I am pretty confident nothing will over shadow some of the stand alone strength feats of the Mirage Turtles. Like the IDW ones, they are every bit above peak human in strength. They are also incredible in the Durability department. These turtles have above peak human stats, combine with the natural armor of their shells which as bullet proof, and can stop dead attack that even steel armor would not be able to.

Durability

Donny showings of durability are pretty good.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

1-2) Dony gets battered by a Shredder Elite, broken leg, and thrown of the building several floors to the ground. Get back in the fight to save Karai.

3) Tanks a blow that slams Donny into a vehicle, decimating the van, but leaving himself no worse for wear.

Raph as again one the seen toughest of the bunch has his fair share of feats.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1) Smashed into the stone wall, cratering it, but is fine.

2-3) Raph free falls several stories, busts through the movie theater's roof, continues falling, and hits the ground hard. Gets back up to fight on.

4) Stabbed with ninja stars, and arrows, dozens of cuts, but just another day of him living the good life.

Leo like Raph shows great durability feats.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

1-2) The decripid future Leo breaks the brick wall behind him, but otherwise shows to be fine.

3) Leo showing massive pain tolerance in a battle that got him injured up with arrows and stars.

4) Raph and Leo tank a explosive blast fine.

5) Leo is blasted of a high pillar, and then hit with another fire blast, yet remains fine.

Mickey actually has no stand alone feats that comes to mind, but its ok as there is two battles I like to post to show off how durable the turtles are, and how strong they must be to fight the odds they do. Think of these as proof of the strength and durability factors in play against foes with even higher strength and durability. Some instances that come to mind are the fame Triceratons. These Triceratops Aliens are all about unending war, and live to fight. To gauge these beings, let me post a little on their strength and durability. They are again highly train soldiers, and this example below is a good showcase of their power and stats. Keep in mind though, this Triceraton below was left on earth, and the air of our planet gives them massive cancer, as well east away their brains. This Triceraton was nowhere a 100%, and was already dying.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

1) Smashes his foot through the many feet of rock and concrete in the sewers.

2) Holds up a foot thick steel platform, easily 10 feet in circumference, and lowers it slowly to the ground.

3-5) Shows that while close to death, still shrugs off bullets and sword attacks, and simply keeps chugging on after the fire power laid into it by the foot.

How do the turtles stack against these power houses?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

When paired one on one in their earliest fights of their careers, the TMNT did well against the empires 4 best warriors in a gladiator match. Tanking attacks, and blocking blows. Manhandling the empires best at their own game.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Donny alone takes down several of them with just his staff, including their above average leader.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Even Mikey who admits being in bad shape at the time accomplishes winning against a Triceraton black ops. What makes the feat better is this Triceraton black ops group train in martial arts heavily after seeing what the TMNT done, and this is decades of honing their own form of Martial Arts to match the Turtles. Mickey in bad shape still casually defeats them.

Anyway, the point is with durability and strength to match these more powerful brutes show just how high they are, more than matching your own IMO. The skill is what firmly pushes them past the IDW turtles. Skill and looser morals.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for tparks
#15 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz:

Might be a little bit before I get to this since my next couple of days will be busy to try and write this post, and I will be out of town this weekend. It will definitely happen though, even if I'm move at non-mutant turtle speed on getting this next post up.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#16 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for tparks
#17 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz:

No Caption Provided

I agree physicals are close, but I have to give at least a slight edge to IDW in some areas, and maybe even a higher edge when it comes to blunt force durability. So in the words of Olivia Newton John:

No Caption Provided

Physicals

Strength

No Caption Provided

For the most part, I would say strength is pretty close. Mirage appears to be respectable metahumans, and IDW is consistently right at their levels. The difference is, IDW has the capabilities of going beyond these levels when pushed to extremes.

Let's compare the high ends:

Most of the high end stuff shown so far has been things like smashing through brick and wooden walls, throwing the turtles around, and cutting through durable characters. The IDW turtles have those feats in spades, but I don't think I've ever seen the Mirage turtles do anything like this:

No Caption Provided

One of the turtles threw a human with enough force to shatter a second story window, and then travel fast enough to tag shredder who was about 20 feet away. Judging from the art, it didn't look like that foot soldier was slowing down any time soon either, if not for hitting Shredder.

What makes this even more impressive IMO, is just how high up the window was he was thrown through too. It wasn't like he was just thrown straight, it was also thrown high enough to do that. The page here doesn't do the building's height justice because of the angle of the bottom panel, but look at the early pages when the turtle's are outside of the building.

No Caption Provided

Just look at the foot soldier on the ground. Even if we only assume that guy is only 5' tall, which is a very short assumption, it's still easy enough to scale the building as 20-25' high at the second story window.

What's even more impressive too is that the window was reinforced with metal supports, that were broken and bent when he was thrown through. Just look at the first scan, and you can see the edges of the window show where the metal bent and then broke.

Taking into account that the human had to be thrown 20-25' into the air, through glass reinforced with metal cross bars, then across another 20' and hitting Shredder without slowing down, it's really not an over-exaggeration to say that's a 10 ton feat. In real life, it would take a lot more then 10 tons to do something like that, so I really think I'm taking a low end here and calling that a 10 ton comic book feat. This kind of strength is closer to early eras of Spider-Man then it is to a peak human.

That's still not even one of their best strength feats though. This next feat is probably their best strength feat:

No Caption Provided

This feat is insane. It easily establishes them as pretty high end strength for a street leveler. I honestly think I'm taking a low end here calling the statue 50 tons. Just look at how small the turtles are next to it:

No Caption Provided

To be honest, it's probably closer to 100 tons then it is 50, but let's call it 50 for the sake of how high end of a feat that is to keep from it being that high end of a feat.

What is also impressive, is that only three turtles were pushing that 50 tons. Leo was on the ground fending off the tentacles of Nub Shiggurath (Yes the turtles have defeated an Old god from the Cthuhlu universe).

I know pushing strength is different the lifting, but take a look at where the turtles are on that statue. They have to shimmy up the wall, but they only go about 10 feet up, and that statue is probably over 200' tall scaling off the turtles. If they were at the top and pushing, then leverage would be with them. Since they were pushing at the bottom, it was working against them. Trying to push from under the center of gravity on something like that would make that feat a very high super human feat for a street leveler.

Comparing what they are capable of, I'd give a strong favorite to the IDW boys for strength.

Now let's look at speed comparisons, because this is another area where I think IDW has it, at least based on feats:

Speed

No Caption Provided

Some of the best we have from Mirage are bullet/laser dodging. These are all impressive, but I think deflecting is something that shows more speed with reaction times, and the IDW turtles have shown they are capable of doing this:

No Caption Provided

Leo deflects a laser, and Mikey can spin his nunchucks so fast, that they become a shield in front of him, and deflect two simultaneous laser blasts.

Mikey is also capable of just timing and not spinning, as seen here:

No Caption Provided

Mikey can slap lasers out of the air with his nunchucks, and in this case, two right after one another.

Raph has shown he is very capable as well:

No Caption Provided

The only character from IDW who has not deflected laser blasts is Donny, but that's probably due to his weapon being wooden, and not really capable of deflecting without destroying it. We have seen some cool stuff from him though, like popping his head into his shell before it can be tagged by a laser:

No Caption Provided

I could fill pages with laser dodging feats of all of the turtles, but I can get into that stuff during individual battles. The ninjas of the IDW universe, generally look upon guns as "coward's weapons", since basically everyone down to even the lowliest characters are casual bullet timers.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Those are just a couple of nameless Foot Soldiers deflecting bullets casually. If that's what fodder ninjas are capable of, it's not hard to imagine that the 4 turtles who continually stomp these guys are significantly faster.

The turtles haven't just deflected fire from random no-namers though. They can deflect arrows from Karai:

No Caption Provided

Karai has some serious skill with a bow. Besides the turtles and Splinter, she snipes everyone she fires at, even from a mile away:

No Caption Provided

There she is just putting fear into her target, showing that she can snipe his tea cup from a mile away. How do I know it's a mile away, look at this next page:

No Caption Provided

She fires three arrows all just inches behind the last one, and all striking her target in the back of the neck, indicating that she fires at an incredible rate, and you can see how far away she is from this page too:

No Caption Provided

Look how far away that crane is. That's easily a mile IMO. Her Silhouette is almost too small to even see, yet she can fire three back to back arrows all within the tiniest fraction of a second from the last one and all hit in the exact same location as the last arrow, on a target that is running. That is very superhuman levels of marksmanship, even when compared to some of the greats of comicbook marksmen.

It's generally agreed that characters with better marksmanship abilities are normally better at shooting bullet timers, yet the turtles have no issues with Karai and her arrows, even when she fires 6 of them at the same time. The speed Leo would have had to have been moving his swords is top tier speed to deflect that many at the same time. Raph used his shell and turned before the arrows hit him as a way to block them, not as cool as Leo, but just as effective and also requiring some speedy movement.

Here's another notable feat of their abilities to dodge lasers, and it's one most might not expect from a TMNT book:

No Caption Provided

That's right, they've dodged the streams of proton packs of the Ghost Busters! This might not seem like you're normal comic book feat, but when you look at what the Ghost Busters have done, they are actually pretty great marksman, with some powerful weapons. They've come a long ways from not being able to tag Slimer in their first outing. I've been a long time reader of Ghost Buster comics as well, and IDW has continued to show them as great at what they do. What's also something to consider, is that IDW Ghost Busters' canon includes both the movies and video games, which have the Ghost Busters take on some challenges that would be too much for a lot of comic book characters. So this is a pretty great feat of their speed/reaction times IMO.

And Winston's a former Marine, so it's no surprise he's got some skills with his proton pack.

Just look at the difference between their first Slimer fight when they were rookies, to when Peter is able to easily snipe Slimer charging him:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Slime does slip away in that scene, but don't take that as a flaw in Venkman's skill with a Proton Pack. This was part of the story line. Egon actually noticed a change in the PKE readings of Ghosts that eventually explains this, but I won't go too far into that, I'll just post this small scan to show this:

No Caption Provided

Egon - "It actually pulled free from the streams?

Venkman - "Yep."

Egon - "That shouldn't be possible. But this morning's PKE reading suggest a change to the fundamental nature of-"

Probably not necessary to show that, but I wanted to make sure the context of that feat was shown.

Here's Egon sniping a Terror Bear (similar to the Terror Dog statues from the first movie) possessing a golden bear statue in the head with a Boson Dart:

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

As you can see, it's at a distance much further then the turtles were when they fired on them, and Egon landed a head shot with it.

Here's Ray and Venkman being ambushed by possessed carnival prizes:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

They are diving through the air similar to what the turtles did to avoid being shot, yet they are tagging them in the air, and Ray is having fun with it even. They are then attacked by a giant monkey statue, dodge it, and then blast it to pieces.

Here's Winston and Egon being stampeded by a possessed carousel. Winston, being the former marine, has some quick reaction times and gets Egon out of the way, and they both turn and fire with headshots:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Another scan of Winston shooting with one hand and tagging a flying possessed carnival prize in mid air:

No Caption Provided

Winston again showing great accuracy. Egon and Ray are sniping more possessed toys, and almost have a boulder slammed on their heads from behind them. Winston with some quick accurate shooting, is able to shoot over Ray's shoulder, right next to his head without hitting him, and land a head shot on the attacker. That's some very nice shooting:

No Caption Provided

Winston again, tagging a possessed Vankman in midflight, moving fast enough to create after-images:

No Caption Provided

That's very similar to how the turtles were moving, yet they were able to dodge the lasers.

Here's Ray showing off awesome shooting when trapped in the Old West:

No Caption Provided

While not a proton pack feat, I think it's pretty impressive that he can pick up a tomahawk and show this kind of accuracy. It kind of shows how much of a natural he is with ranged weaponry. He then goes on to do this though:

No Caption Provided

He takes down 6 cowboy ghosts all before they can fire back at him with a single shot of his makeshift proton pack. He even takes on an entire army of ghosts while shooting accurately, and even dodges some bullets of his own:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Ok, so maybe I went a little overboard with Ghost Buster scans, but it's not like everyday I get to post my Ghost Buster stuff in the battle forums, so I took advantage of this. :)

Still though, I think it does show that they are better then average marksman, yet the turtles were still casually dodging them.

Back on track to the turtles though. I'll be posting more speed stuff through out this entire CaV, but let's move on to Durability:

Durability

No Caption Provided

The IDW turtles can take some punishment and keep on going. I'm tempted to just show this throughout the battles I post, because it will be seen often in some of my favorite battles of theirs such as against Slash (an easy 50 tonner), and Bebop and Rocksteady (who make Slash seem weak in comparison).

Just to show that they can take some serious punishment, here they are being mauled by a gigantic horde of mousers:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

That's a lot of scans, but I wanted to show just how many of these things were attacking. You can see, that they maul them, explode the entire ceiling (which is a lot above them considering this is in a sewer) over their heads to rain down on them, and just force them into a long grueling battle against thousands of mousers, yet they come through fine. These things were even designed to eat IED's, so the fact that their skin is resistant to their bites is very impressive:

No Caption Provided

What also makes this impressive is that these things are tough enough to be bullet proof, yet they could barely hurt the turtles, and the turtles smashed them to pieces with ease:

No Caption Provided

So I know this isn't a lot to go on for durability, specially when this is one of the biggest strong suits of the IDW turtles, but I am going to intentionally leave this as is for now, as there will be plenty seen in the next posts where I go into battles. I also know I still haven't shown off a ton of skill showings yet to counter your claim of Mirage being the more skilled version, but I think I can also show this in the coming posts where I go into some of their favorite battles. For now, I think I gave a pretty good impression that the IDW turtles are without a doubt superhuman, and one of the most powerful versions of the turtles ever seen. It only makes sense IMO, the IDW turtles are influenced and draw parts of every other series the turtles have ever been in, so it would make sense that it would take the strengths of every other version as well. More on this next time....

Can't wait to see what you've got for me next!

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#18 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks:

No Caption Provided

Alright, I honestly feel this is the near end of the comparison debate. We covered skills, morals, and now physicals. So lets see what counters i have for you, and finish this up.

I agree physicals are close, but I have to give at least a slight edge to IDW in some areas, and maybe even a higher edge when it comes to blunt force durability. So in the words of Olivia Newton John:

We shall see. :)

Strength

For the most part, I would say strength is pretty close. Mirage appears to be respectable metahumans, and IDW is consistently right at their levels. The difference is, IDW has the capabilities of going beyond these levels when pushed to extremes.

Let's compare the high ends:

Lets compare.

Most of the high end stuff shown so far has been things like smashing through brick and wooden walls, throwing the turtles around, and cutting through durable characters. The IDW turtles have those feats in spades, but I don't think I've ever seen the Mirage turtles do anything like this:

One of the turtles threw a human with enough force to shatter a second story window, and then travel fast enough to tag shredder who was about 20 feet away. Judging from the art, it didn't look like that foot soldier was slowing down any time soon either, if not for hitting Shredder.

Just look at the foot soldier on the ground. Even if we only assume that guy is only 5' tall, which is a very short assumption, it's still easy enough to scale the building as 20-25' high at the second story window.

What's even more impressive too is that the window was reinforced with metal supports, that were broken and bent when he was thrown through. Just look at the first scan, and you can see the edges of the window show where the metal bent and then broke.

Taking into account that the human had to be thrown 20-25' into the air, through glass reinforced with metal cross bars, then across another 20' and hitting Shredder without slowing down, it's really not an over-exaggeration to say that's a 10 ton feat. In real life, it would take a lot more then 10 tons to do something like that, so I really think I'm taking a low end here and calling that a 10 ton comic book feat. This kind of strength is closer to early eras of Spider-Man then it is to a peak human.

I really think this is not that impressive. Not to me anyway. Throwing 120 pounds at such speeds is real good, but some of the high ends of Mirage clearly beat this. Raph with his denting solid steel armor vehicle slamming the face of a werewolf, or Leo smashing through the walls of a Pyramid is easily above this by alot. Heck cutting someone in half like Carnage is above this, as well dragging Carnage through stone is above this by alot.

That's still not even one of their best strength feats though. This next feat is probably their best strength feat:

This feat is insane. It easily establishes them as pretty high end strength for a street leveler. I honestly think I'm taking a low end here calling the statue 50 tons. Just look at how small the turtles are next to it:

To be honest, it's probably closer to 100 tons then it is 50, but let's call it 50 for the sake of how high end of a feat that is to keep from it being that high end of a feat.

What is also impressive, is that only three turtles were pushing that 50 tons. Leo was on the ground fending off the tentacles of Nub Shiggurath (Yes the turtles have defeated an Old god from the Cthuhlu universe).

I know pushing strength is different the lifting, but take a look at where the turtles are on that statue. They have to shimmy up the wall, but they only go about 10 feet up, and that statue is probably over 200' tall scaling off the turtles. If they were at the top and pushing, then leverage would be with them. Since they were pushing at the bottom, it was working against them. Trying to push from under the center of gravity on something like that would make that feat a very high super human feat for a street leveler.

Comparing what they are capable of, I'd give a strong favorite to the IDW boys for strength.

That is a great feat for three turtles using leverage at the same time to tip a off balance design statue. I find the Mirage feat of just Raph with no leverage knocking down a 30 foot brick chimney by himself better. The Brick weighs alot mate, I lay it time to time in my job, and its all held by concrete mix. So your talking easy 5 to 10 tons with no leverage forced down. Best part is the brick is rooted and held to the building, not a loose object held in place by gravity alone.

Anyway its impressive, but not beating the single feats of Mirage on high end. Just matching at best.

Speed

Some of the best we have from Mirage are bullet/laser dodging. These are all impressive, but I think deflecting is something that shows more speed with reaction times, and the IDW turtles have shown they are capable of doing this:

Leo deflects a laser, and Mikey can spin his nunchucks so fast, that they become a shield in front of him, and deflect two simultaneous laser blasts.

Mikey is also capable of just timing and not spinning, as seen here:

Mikey can slap lasers out of the air with his nunchucks, and in this case, two right after one another.

Raph has shown he is very capable as well:

The only character from IDW who has not deflected laser blasts is Donny, but that's probably due to his weapon being wooden, and not really capable of deflecting without destroying it. We have seen some cool stuff from him though, like popping his head into his shell before it can be tagged by a laser:

All thats good, but nothing that is not aim dodging or reaction anymore than what mirage done. By Mirage art they are interweaving between the blasts at the same time, same for bullets. While they never deflected the attacks its nothing they could not due since Leo alone was dodging laser fire and arrow fire from two gladiators of the Battle Nexus at the same time, and threw his sword down the Gun barrel from accuracy alone while dodging all these attacks.

All in all deflection is cool use of the weapons, but nothing faster in speed really.However, I do feel I can top this speed feat easy. Behold the Foot magic empowered super speed ninjas.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9

In this one off, these three ninjas were granted easy super sonic plus speed. Faster than bullets actually. Faster than can be seen, with reaction time to match. Scan 7 shows they see the world in slow motion, able to count the individual drops of water from a fire main! That is how fast they are in combat speed and reaction. They blitz Splinter initially faster than he could perceive them. While they get the better of the turtles in most of the fight, things to take away are thus. As fast as they can react and move, Leo, Raph, and Donny all get counters and hits on them. Thats is damn good speed with skill. Another thing to take away is these ninjas are hitting with the fore of a heavy bullet caliber in the size of a fist. Ouch, but the turtles tank it mostly. Good durability.

IMO this is better than simply predicting a shot from a laser gun, and deflecting it. Im not seeing a speed advantage here.

I could fill pages with laser dodging feats of all of the turtles, but I can get into that stuff during individual battles. The ninjas of the IDW universe, generally look upon guns as "coward's weapons", since basically everyone down to even the lowliest characters are casual bullet timers.

Those are just a couple of nameless Foot Soldiers deflecting bullets casually. If that's what fodder ninjas are capable of, it's not hard to imagine that the 4 turtles who continually stomp these guys are significantly faster.

Pretty much same for my characters. While Foot are very skilled, more so than Mirage Foot, they are nothing above Shredder Elite Foot Ninjas who re so skilled that they rival Shredder himself, and capable of taking a Mirage Turtle in one on one fine.

The Elite were the branch off from the Foot early on in the TMNT comics. Shredder as you know died early in the original comics, coming back through resurection spells every now and then. the Elite were the Foot that Shredder taught and train himself, and were a league from the main Foot Clan that were operating under Kurai's command How good was this branch off to the average Foot?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Here a single Elite takes down a whole Foot army sent to take the Elite down.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10

Here again, the Foot is using their guns, missile launchers to fight off Alien mechs in the city. Turtles get involve and get overwhelmed by both sides. A single Shredder Elite again shows up, and deals with the foot, and the mechs with ease. Saving the turtles actually.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Here we see Raph alone take on a single Elite, and nearly die.

I can show more of the Elite, but I think the message is clear. While the IDW Foot are better than Mirage average Foot, the Shredder Elite Foot clan is way above both parties. Just comparing dicks now though :).

The turtles haven't just deflected fire from random no-namers though. They can deflect arrows from Karai:

Karai has some serious skill with a bow. Besides the turtles and Splinter, she snipes everyone she fires at, even from a mile away:

There she is just putting fear into her target, showing that she can snipe his tea cup from a mile away. How do I know it's a mile away, look at this next page:

She fires three arrows all just inches behind the last one, and all striking her target in the back of the neck, indicating that she fires at an incredible rate, and you can see how far away she is from this page too:

Look how far away that crane is. That's easily a mile IMO. Her Silhouette is almost too small to even see, yet she can fire three back to back arrows all within the tiniest fraction of a second from the last one and all hit in the exact same location as the last arrow, on a target that is running. That is very superhuman levels of marksmanship, even when compared to some of the greats of comicbook marksmen.

It's generally agreed that characters with better marksmanship abilities are normally better at shooting bullet timers, yet the turtles have no issues with Karai and her arrows, even when she fires 6 of them at the same time. The speed Leo would have had to have been moving his swords is top tier speed to deflect that many at the same time. Raph used his shell and turned before the arrows hit him as a way to block them, not as cool as Leo, but just as effective and also requiring some speedy movement.

Well to be fair, the Arrows are only at speeds of 300 FPS. While she is a good shot, she is not Deadshot or Bullseye my friend. By that I mean her aim is no compensating the 300 FPS arrows she is using.

Here's another notable feat of their abilities to dodge lasers, and it's one most might not expect from a TMNT book:

That's right, they've dodged the streams of proton packs of the Ghost Busters! This might not seem like you're normal comic book feat, but when you look at what the Ghost Busters have done, they are actually pretty great marksman, with some powerful weapons. They've come a long ways from not being able to tag Slimer in their first outing. I've been a long time reader of Ghost Buster comics as well, and IDW has continued to show them as great at what they do. What's also something to consider, is that IDW Ghost Busters' canon includes both the movies and video games, which have the Ghost Busters take on some challenges that would be too much for a lot of comic book characters. So this is a pretty great feat of their speed/reaction times IMO.

And Winston's a former Marine, so it's no surprise he's got some skills with his proton pack.

Just look at the difference between their first Slimer fight when they were rookies, to when Peter is able to easily snipe Slimer charging him:

Slime does slip away in that scene, but don't take that as a flaw in Venkman's skill with a Proton Pack. This was part of the story line. Egon actually noticed a change in the PKE readings of Ghosts that eventually explains this, but I won't go too far into that, I'll just post this small scan to show this:

Egon - "It actually pulled free from the streams?

Venkman - "Yep."

Egon - "That shouldn't be possible. But this morning's PKE reading suggest a change to the fundamental nature of-"

Probably not necessary to show that, but I wanted to make sure the context of that feat was shown.

Here's Egon sniping a Terror Bear (similar to the Terror Dog statues from the first movie) possessing a golden bear statue in the head with a Boson Dart:

As you can see, it's at a distance much further then the turtles were when they fired on them, and Egon landed a head shot with it.

Here's Ray and Venkman being ambushed by possessed carnival prizes:

They are diving through the air similar to what the turtles did to avoid being shot, yet they are tagging them in the air, and Ray is having fun with it even. They are then attacked by a giant monkey statue, dodge it, and then blast it to pieces.

Here's Winston and Egon being stampeded by a possessed carousel. Winston, being the former marine, has some quick reaction times and gets Egon out of the way, and they both turn and fire with headshots:

Another scan of Winston shooting with one hand and tagging a flying possessed carnival prize in mid air:

Winston again showing great accuracy. Egon and Ray are sniping more possessed toys, and almost have a boulder slammed on their heads from behind them. Winston with some quick accurate shooting, is able to shoot over Ray's shoulder, right next to his head without hitting him, and land a head shot on the attacker. That's some very nice shooting:

Winston again, tagging a possessed Vankman in midflight, moving fast enough to create after-images:

That's very similar to how the turtles were moving, yet they were able to dodge the lasers.

Here's Ray showing off awesome shooting when trapped in the Old West:

While not a proton pack feat, I think it's pretty impressive that he can pick up a tomahawk and show this kind of accuracy. It kind of shows how much of a natural he is with ranged weaponry. He then goes on to do this though:

He takes down 6 cowboy ghosts all before they can fire back at him with a single shot of his makeshift proton pack. He even takes on an entire army of ghosts while shooting accurately, and even dodges some bullets of his own:

Ok, so maybe I went a little overboard with Ghost Buster scans, but it's not like everyday I get to post my Ghost Buster stuff in the battle forums, so I took advantage of this. :)

Still though, I think it does show that they are better then average marksman, yet the turtles were still casually dodging them.

Interesting GB feats lol. Im not sure if this is better than dodging the tech and targeting abilities of oots, and such, but good to see some GB feats :) I can think of a better feat over all for crossover.

In this cross over called Turtles Forever, the 2003 Turtles, one of the widley accepted top 3 strongest versions of Turtles, and they team up with the 90s Cartoon turtles. In this massive crossover, they make their way to the source world, the original Turtle world, the Mirage comics.

Loading Video...

As seen in 44:08, the Mirage Turtles effortlessly defeat the combine turtle forces. Taking them out before they can mount a counter or defense, and 2003 Leo nearly died against Mirage Leo. This episode takes place in the first comic of mirage as well, as Shredder was still alive! This is Mirage TMNT at their rookiest, and they decimated the more far along 90s and 2003 TMNT at the same time.

Now thats a crossover showing speed and skill over their counterparts ;)

Durability

The IDW turtles can take some punishment and keep on going. I'm tempted to just show this throughout the battles I post, because it will be seen often in some of my favorite battles of theirs such as against Slash (an easy 50 tonner), and Bebop and Rocksteady (who make Slash seem weak in comparison).

I think your Beebop and Rocksteady is tough, but not tougher than what Mirage faced time to time my man. I already went into detail of the Triceratons, as powerful as any real world triceratops Dino, and how the Turtles take them down fine. Here is a few other foes as well that match or surpass Beebop and Rocksteady in power house side of things.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Donny alone fought a 30 foot solid clay golem which is easily building wrecking. Tanking hard hitting blows, while dancing on its body, wailing on it.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11

Baxter Stockman himself made a super mech body for himself that tanks the incredible damage shown above, and strong enough to bring down entire city streets. The Turtles are stun tanking his best blows, but they also tank missiles blasts before that. Right after Stockman goes off the building, they all recover fine and ready to chase him down.

While both of these guys are comparable to Beebop and Rocksteady in OMG WTF stats here is a one up.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Perfect Carnage. This reoccurring villain is a true super powered being. He is a rck demon like looking foe with the power to phase into earth like materials. Whats more he can absorb the sum power of a earth made object into himself. Think absorbing man but a benefit of phasing, way more skill in martial arts, and limited to earth materials like stone, steel, or concrete. This guy brings down whole buildings and monasteries, and absorb much of the sum energy of New York's metropolis to fight the energy being Radical. Radical gets beaten, and the TMNT have to save her. They take this guy on at his best, tanking blows from him, and getting counters in. A worthy feat of any Beebop or Rocksteady encounter. Whats better is the fact this is the Turtles when they first started, super early comics. Later end comics shows that a older Leonardo alone was able to beat Carnage by himself.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Leo is tanking blows like nothing, and he is at a older age her, after this guy one offs Radical easy unlike he could before. Which again is the huge gap in capability between IDW right now and end game Mirage. In the last comics of Mirage, the TMNT are not even a group or team, but rather individual masters on Splinter level, or surpassing him like Leo has.

I can show more feats of Shredder return as a large shark like monster, thats freaking scary, and the mutated Shredder clones all fighting, and more. But in terms of durability and strength, there is nothing IDW has done that outshines in this category of foes that the Mirage have not dealt with my friend. So when looking at the feats as whole and comparison, I see nothing really standing out for either team in stats. At all.

Just to show that they can take some serious punishment, here they are being mauled by a gigantic horde of mousers:

That's a lot of scans, but I wanted to show just how many of these things were attacking. You can see, that they maul them, explode the entire ceiling (which is a lot above them considering this is in a sewer) over their heads to rain down on them, and just force them into a long grueling battle against thousands of mousers, yet they come through fine. These things were even designed to eat IED's, so the fact that their skin is resistant to their bites is very impressive:

What also makes this impressive is that these things are tough enough to be bullet proof, yet they could barely hurt the turtles, and the turtles smashed them to pieces with ease:

Mausers are good, but nothing my TMNT have not dealt with.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

In Mirage, the Mauser is stated able to bite through stone, concrete, and even thick steel bank vaults! If they can bit through that material with no damage, bullets are not harming Mirage Mausers either. Yet, just like your TMNT, Mirage one broke and cut these things apart as well. hell they even had C4 Explosives go off next to them in a tunnel, and took some of the falling earth on them. Still fighting the Mauser army on while Donatello shut them down. In fact South Park describes best my feeling on your IDW feat to my Mirage one.

Loading Video...

I feel IDw is taking alot from Mirage, and that is what makes IDW cool, but Mirage still did it first.

In response to the durability of the shells and such when compared to Mausers, I can match that myself.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This Aztech warrior is a tech altered human of a far future who battles in the Battle Nexus for Multiverse top warriors. His weapon is a special sword that manages to damage Leo's seemingly impervious Kitanas. Even breaking them after a few strikes. With all his strength for the killing blow, he could not penetrate the Turtles own shell, something Karia remark on with awe. Damn good feat.

So I know this isn't a lot to go on for durability, specially when this is one of the biggest strong suits of the IDW turtles, but I am going to intentionally leave this as is for now, as there will be plenty seen in the next posts where I go into battles. I also know I still haven't shown off a ton of skill showings yet to counter your claim of Mirage being the more skilled version, but I think I can also show this in the coming posts where I go into some of their favorite battles.

Have at it, I posted some context already for Mirage. I know you will post some to match, but I am sure nothing will surpass. More so in the skill side of things.

For now, I think I gave a pretty good impression that the IDW turtles are without a doubt superhuman, and one of the most powerful versions of the turtles ever seen. It only makes sense IMO, the IDW turtles are influenced and draw parts of every other series the turtles have ever been in, so it would make sense that it would take the strengths of every other version as well. More on this next time....

While true they take away from other versions, one thing must be considered. The Mirage Turtles were wacky ass Loony Tunes Shit! What do I mean by this? The comics originally were satire and serious mix of Super Hero comics of the 80s and forward. Crazy, crazy, crazy shit happen in the Mirage Turtle comics that IDW comics will not touch at all mate. Also unlike the more moral bound IDW Turtles that are sold with the more moral bound versions in mind, the originals were 80s mind set. Maim, kill, maim, and pee on the dead when your done lol. The Cartoon of the 90s DRASTICALLY change the lore of TMNT in terms of identity and good morals that IDW role with. Still, my Mirage guys are some of the craziest shit you read TMNT in ever. This is a canon story of Donatello meeting Jack Kirby, and through his magic pencil breaks the fourth wall to fight Kirby's alien monster army!

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

This happen! IDW TMNT will never go through the crazy, no limits madness that the Mirage TMNT been through over 20 years of publishing.

Also all the other versions still borrow HEAVILY from the Mirage comics, like I showed with the Mausers. Another thing to note is Mirage Comics been around for 20 years my friend. 80s up to mid 2000s. That is a comic run of OMG WTF! They have tons of feats and ideas borrowed from 80s, 90s, and 2000s. Still the originals with a comic run that I hop IDW can match, but seriously doubt it. No Version of TMNT comes close. So with that said, Mirage comics have more going for them IMO while IDW is overall a good read of serious ninja action. Mirage had serious moments, joke moments, and total WTH am I reading craziness moments lol.

So again, what is the end result? Stats are comparable, but in the end the biggest factor is that Mirage Turtles have simply been through more shit, and are all Masters by themselves unlike the IDW versions. The Mirage Versions went from barely able to deal with Perfect Carnage to Leo soloing him over time. That is the level your guys have not measured up to at all yet. They are behind in experience and skill. Always will be IMo as the Mirage had serious and insane comic arcs, compared to the more balance IDW, and Mirage have 20 years of stories to pull from. Mirage also have lesser morals to killing and maiming, which spells further doom for IDW versions. In the end, it be a god fight, but IDW will lose.

No Caption Provided

Go ahead and go all out with your last post mate, I am ready to wrap this up :). major points been hit, and Im ready to get this for votes. Post some good feats.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#20 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for tparks
#21 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Ya. I've written some of a post, but it might take a few days to get it completely done, since I haven't had time to sit and type very much at one time. Haven't forgotten though. :)

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#22 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Ya. I've written some of a post, but it might take a few days to get it completely done, since I haven't had time to sit and type very much at one time. Haven't forgotten though. :)

Awsome

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#23 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for tparks
#24 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Still haven't forgotten. You know in my first post, where I said my laptop was acting buggy? Well the hard drive died on me a few days after. I've got an old work computer I never gave back to them, and I've been typing a response on that, but after saving 20 or so scans at one time, it starts bogging down, so my last post is taking forever. I will eventually finish it, but I was planning on making the last post quite a bit longer then the first two.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#25 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: You poor man. You go to the nearest Best Buy, and steal yourself a decent PC late at night like a respectable person. Till then mate, looking forward to it.

Avatar image for tparks
#26 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: That's a lot better idea then I had. I was going to rob a bank, and then buy a laptop.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#27 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@sirfizzwhizz: That's a lot better idea then I had. I was going to rob a bank, and then buy a laptop.

Just cut the middle man out :)

Avatar image for soup95
#28 Posted by Soup95 (277 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please, haven't gotten to reading it all quiet yet but this is very cool so far

Avatar image for cadencev2
#29 Posted by cadencev2 (696 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for tparks
#30 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I know, I know. I suck. My computer just sucks and it gets frustrating writing it. I might sneak into my work's office and use a nice computer after hours this weekend. :D

Avatar image for cadencev2
#31 Posted by cadencev2 (696 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@cadencev2: I know, I know. I suck. My computer just sucks and it gets frustrating writing it. I might sneak into my work's office and use a nice computer after hours this weekend. :D

Now that is making your job work for you! Steal, I mean borrow some pens while your at it. lol

Avatar image for cadencev2
#32 Posted by cadencev2 (696 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for tparks
#33 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Good news, I've got a ton done on this post tonight since the job I was heading to tonight got cancelled. Bad news, this last post is going to be longer then I normally like to write, but there is a lot I want to put into this last post. I won't have it done tonight, but I am making a lot of progress now at least.

Avatar image for allstarsuperman
#34 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43006 posts) - - Show Bio

Sweet. Haven't read all this yet.....this is pretty huge.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#35 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: So..... one last post? Just one?

Avatar image for cosmicallyaware1
#37 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

dayum

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#38 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Jeez Tparks, that is a lot of text lol. I mean, your not going to die on me tomorrow are ya? This is like a last statement.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#39 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: BUUUUMP!

Almost done unlike our first CAV.

Avatar image for tparks
#40 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: So this isn't working all as one post, and I'm going to try to do it in 2 separate posts.

Part 1 of 2

@cadencev2: FINALLY DONE!!! It took slightly longer then I would have liked, but here it is.

I plan on making this a long post, since I feel like I've only scratched the surface of what IDW is capable of. I usually don't type this long of posts, but with only one left to squeeze in a lot more of what I want to say, it's going to probably be the longest post I've ever written in a CaV.

Anyways, let's get into it.

No Caption Provided

I think one of the most important part of the IDW turtles, is the amazing supporting characters. Each character is deserving of their own comics themselves, and IDW realizes this, so a lot of what goes into the pages of each issue is devoted to these characters.

How does this factor into this CaV? Well, the turtles have faced basically every character in their universe at this point, so it's nice to see that it's not just the villain of the month they are taking down, but a character who is an elite combatant in their own rights. I'm going to break down each character I think is notable to this CaV, and then show how the turtles fared against them, and then compare how that relates to how they would do against the Mirage boys.

Let's look at the...

IDW Rogues Gallery

No Caption Provided

So I'll start off small, with a very skilled mutant who is a new creation to the IDW universe known as Alopex:

Alopex

No Caption Provided

Alopex was the first mutant for the Foot Clan created by Shredder. Before I get too far, I'll give a quick break down on Ooze mutations, since I know some people have asked me why some characters are so much more powerful then other mutants, when they are all mutated from the same Ooze. There are four types of mutations of Ooze in the IDW universe.

  1. Normal humans turned superhuman like Hun, who is a normal human infused with Utrom Ooze to enhance his body to superhuman levels.
  2. Normal humans mutated with animals like Bebop and Rocksteady who were at one time normal humans, then infused with Ooze and animal genetics to transform them into massively superhuman mutants with properties of the animal chosen to mix with the ooze.
  3. The third isn't really a mutation, but a regenerative property of the Ooze. This has been used to heal Casey's dad from a crippling disease, allow Krang to keep his race of Utroms in suspended animation for thousands of years, allow Krang himself to live for thousands (if not millions based on what we know of him) of years, and to let Shredder live for hundreds of years, and even resurrect from the grave.
  4. The fourth, is like the turtles and Splinter, who were normal animals, infused with Ooze to create mutants out of the animal that develop humanoid characteristics, with superhuman physicals. Alopex, is this type of mutant.

As the first mutant Shredder created, he wanted to use an animal that is perfect for creating a master ninja assassin.

No Caption Provided

"You know, it was my idea to use foxes. Crafty, so fast, perfect hunters. I hold them in high esteem. And look how you turned out, just incredible. You actually drew blood.:

This is a quote from Shredder when he goaded her into taking a strike at him, which I will go into later. You can see through Shredder's logic, that a Fox would make a perfect ninja assassin. So let's look at what she can do:

No Caption Provided
  • Alopex's claws are sharp enough to dig into the side of a brick wall to stop her descent when Raph throws her off the roof of a building.
  • She shows some impressive agility back-flipping off the wall, planting off the other wall, and finally landing safely on the ground.
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  • Here Alopex infiltrates a meeting where a few members of the Foot Clan were betraying the clan, she is able to use her body to break through huge window.
  • Before she even lands in the building, one of her opponents reaches for his gun, Alopex is quick enough to disarm him and use his own gun against him.
  • She then one-shots the last opponent

She doesn't stop with taking out her targets though, as the foot soldiers who were here were betraying the clan, she uses them as training for the one day she will face the turtles head on. She gives them the turtles weapons, a staff, two swords, two nunchucks, and two sais. She then blindfolds herself, forcing herself to rely on her other senses to kill the attackers who have the weapons of her enemies.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

She easily dispatches each attacker, visualizing the turtles as she does so.

She is even so skilled, that Leo has selected her as her partner to demonstrate new fighting styles with to the Foot Clan he now trains as Chunin:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

I talked about this a little in my earlier posts, but here she is sparring with Leo, then helping him explain the importance of never using the same style of martial arts, when your opponent switches styles. They are showing that if your opponent switches styles, then they are trying to counter the style being used, so the Foot Soldiers need to know multiple martial arts styles to change between in mid fight to always have a leg up on their opponents. Demonstrating and teaching this concept shows some high level mastery of martial arts.

Her and Leo demonstrate this skill and mastery of tactics immediately after this sparring session, when they are ambushed by Street Phantoms. Street Phantoms have the same powers as Kitty Pryde. They can become intangible at will, and make themselves nearly impossible to defeat. Leo and Alopex use some impressive tactics to defeat these opponents though:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

She does have some very impressive skill, and Shredder wanted to test this, and her devotion to the foot clan, as he brought her to her old home in Alaska when she was still just a normal wolf, to show that her new family is the Foot, and destroyed her old family. She lashes out at Shredder because of this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Now this fight is a clear cut win for Shredder, there is no denying it, it does show off her skill. She manages to not only strike Shredder, but land a slash that draws blood for him. Shredder is amazed and pleased. He expected her to lash out, and was not sure if she had the skill to actually prove her worth to the foot. The fact that she managed to touch him at all solidified his choice in selecting her to become her assassin, as there are very few who can actually manage to lay a hand on Shredder in hand to hand combat.

She's more then just ninja skill though, she even has the superhuman physicals that come with mutation.

Like this scan for example:

No Caption Provided

She tackles Raph through a metal door, blowing the thing right off of it's hinges. The hinges don't just break though, the door itself bends in on itself from where she drove Raph through it. She then throws Raph a good twenty feat through the air. She has some serious strength, specially when considering she is one of the weakest opponents as far as strength goes that the turtles face. It just goes to show how strong all of the turtles opponents are. Anyways, back to Alopex.

She has the striking strength to one-shot Foot Clan assassins:

No Caption Provided
  • A single kick KO's an assassin

One might dismiss ko'ing a foot clan soldier, since they are typically fodder, but the assassin class of Foot Soldier is by no means fodder. They stand toe to toe with the turtles, and even give Splinter a decent fight. They are the very elite of the Foot Clan who have excelled beyond all other ninjas, and are used by Shredder to carry out assassinations on the most dangerous enemies of the Foot, like he tried to do here against the turtles.

She has more then just strength though, she has shown some impressive speed:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • After being shot with an arrow, and beaten down by Shredder, she manages to outrun the van the turtles used to escape to North Hampton, and hang on to the van the entire way to North Hampton.

Her she is again, chasing down another speeding vehicle:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  • She outruns the speeding van, makes a huge leap, and crashes through the window to attack the fleeing turtles.
  • She is then tagged by Raph, collides with the road at full speed, and shows no signs of damage, as she gets back up and is just yelling since her enemies have escaped.

That last feat showed some decent durability with her colliding with the road from a speeding vehicle, but she has much more impressive durability then even that:

No Caption Provided
  • Her and Raph were tossed by Rocksteady, who is massively superhuman, a very long distance and on top of a building. Both her and Raph upon landing show no signs of being hurt, and even comment on the awkwardness of being so close since they tend to be a little flirty together.

Now I've seen some people try and low ball that feat since they hit a pigeon coop, and that would soften their blow. That is pretty ridiculous IMO, considering that chicken wire and 3/4" thick wood is going to soften the blow when thrown with such force. I could collapse that chicken pen myself by just kicking it, and I'm by no means a superhuman. Those two would have ripped through that pen like wet paper, which is how the art shows it as well.

So, that's a whole lot on Alopex for a Turtle vs Turtle debate, but I think it's necessary to show what I'm going to show next, of her fights against individual turtles. It's not like a Marvel or DC character where I can just say something like Cap beat Wolverine, and that has merit because everyone knows Wolverine is impressive, I think I need to show how impressive Alopex is, because saying Raph beat Alopex doesn't mean much, unless you actually see that beating Alopex would require a great deal of talent as a combatant.

So here are the battles of her against the turtles:

Alopex vs Raph

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6
  • Raph dodges 8 throwing stars at the same time
  • Tanks a shot in the stomach but shows no sign of slowing down
  • blocks her razor sharp claws
  • This first fight ends with no clear winner, because Alopex escapes

Alopex vs Raph: Round 2

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  • This is Raph's second fight with Alopex where he is able to KO her pretty easily
  • Raph also tanks her claws that can penetrate a brick wall, but Raph shows no damage

Alopex vs Leo

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Alopex attacks Leo from behind, but he easily puts her down.

Alopex vs Donny

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Not much of a battle. Donny pretty much just uses his staff to take her off her feet by jamming it into her chest.
  • The impressive part of this feat is that Donny was fighting multiple ninjas at the same time when this happened.

So Alopex, is a master in several forms of martial arts, is capable of switching styles based on what her opponent shows her, has superhuman level physicals, and specifically trained to fight the turtles. She even got to the point where she could fight four attackers all using the turtles weapons at the same time, and she did this while blindfolded.

Even with all of this going for her, each time she has tried to face a turtle one on one in a real battle, she gets put down rather quickly.

Now, I know the Mirage boys could all take her on one on one as well based on feats, but let's say she trained specifically for the style of fighting the Mirage Turtles use, could they still win one on one? Maybe, probably, but it is hard to say for sure, since I don't recall ever seeing anything where an assassin was trained specifically for the turtles, by Shredder, who has thousands of years of experience himself. The skill that would be needed to defeat an opponent completely geared for the IDW turtles like this is very high end. The fact that they do it so easily makes this even more impressive. Furthermore, all of these fights with Alopex were early in the series, when they aren't even half the fighters they are currently in the series.

Let's move on to another skilled villain of the turtles, one who was first created in none other then the Mirage comics.

Karai

No Caption Provided

Oroku Karai is a direct descendant of Shredder, and the one responsible for returning the Foot Clan to a Clan of deadly ninjas to be unparalleled by any other fighting force on the planet. While Shredder was bathing in Ooze for 300 years, the Foot Clan slowly degraded to nothing but white collar crime, and the ninja way was all but gone. Karai found the old secrets of the Foot Clan, trained to become a master martial artist of the Foot style, then seized control of the clan, and brought back it's militant strength. She has since invented her own style of martial arts, and besides Splinter, no other character holds as much respect in Shredder's eyes as her. She is also an amazing archer, as shown previously capable of shooting targets as small as a tea cup from a mile away.

I already went into her archery stuff in a previous post, and showed how the turtles are capable of deflecting her archery, so I will focus on other parts of her character and how the turtles have fared against her.

The scans here describe her rise as a warrior, starting from a very young age, going from a normal girl, to a master martial artist, to the leader of the most powerful clan in the world:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

She begins training herself. She gets to the point where she can shatter 4x4 posts with jump kicks. She shows such skill, that Shredder projects himself across the Astral Plane to seek her out, and help guide her in the rise of the Foot Clan. He comments on how her skill is remarkable granted that she has had no formal training.

Here she is training, and earns the respect of Shredder with her display of skill, as he notices the subtleties in her adaptation of the Foot Style.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Here she is again, showing off her skill by taking on multiple Foot Soldiers at the same time to display her skill to Shredder:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Karai shows off some impressive skill in this. Sure, it's just fodder Foot Soldiers, but she is showing off a high level of skill none the less. Even Shredder is highly impressed with her skill. He goes on to teach her a lesson that she is still no where near his level of skill and that she no longer is the leader of the Foot now that he is back, but he immediately afterwards comments on her abilities after beating her. I'll show the lesson Shredder teaches later in this thread, but for now, here's Shredder's view of Karai's skills.

No Caption Provided

"Despite your insolence, you are a capable warrior Karai, a ninja of the highest order. On that, we agree."

Shredder, one of the most skilled characters in comics, considers Karai to be a ninja of the highest order. That holds some merit since it's coming from a very credible source on all things martial arts. The guy has been practicing them for thousands of years.

She shows off the skill she has when sent on a mission from Shredder to infiltrate the heavily guarded Burnow Island and steel Ooze. This island is guarded by Krang, who has a very strong military presence to protect his race's survival from thieves like Karai. She is quite a bit more skilled of a ninja then he expected though:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

She breaks out of free fall from a plane at the very last second before hitting the ground. Her skills as a ninja allow her to break in, leave a trail of unconscious and dead bodies, and vanish without ever having anyone put up any resistance that could possibly stop her.

She has managed to gain a one on one victory with Mondo Gecko, who is a pretty speedy, and while unorthodox fighter, has been proving to be very effective in every fight he's been in so far:

No Caption Provided

The only reason he managed to survive, was because of Splinter's timely interference. If not for that, he would have been cut down, and she beat him rather easily.

She then goes on to square off with Splinter, who does hold back because he is trying to convince her to reclaim control of the Foot Clan, and lead it in a different direction the Shredder, but it's still impressive none the less.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

She has the strength to cut her opponents swords in half with her own sword:

No Caption Provided

Karai has even managed to gain one of the only wins ever against Bebop and Rocksteady.

No Caption Provided

Now, no other character but her is really capable of doing what she did, since Bebop and Rocksteady fear her, mostly for comedic purposes. Still, she showed the ability to put down Rocksteady with a kick (which is amazing in and of itself), quickly grab an ammo magazine, shove it in his mouth to prop it open, draw her sword, and shove it down his throat, all before he could react. Rocksteady has reacted to a lot of speedy characters too, so this is a very impressive showing from Karai, even though Rocksteady wouldn't have actually been killed by a single sword anyways.

What's most impressive, is that she managed to beat Dark Leo in a straight up fight:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

She has Dark Leo beaten, but she takes a dive for appearances with Shredder. Shredder would not have liked Karai killing his Chunin out of what would look like jealousy.

Now, Dark Leo did lose here, and it is a great showing for Karai, but don't think that because Dark Leo lost, that Leo would normally lose to her. Leonardo while brain washed by the witch Kitsune and Shredder, struggles against the brain washing. He hesitates briefly, since his brain washing is forcing him to fight with lesser morals, but his real identity fights against these actions. Normal Leo would beat Dark Leo 10/10. This was confirmed when Raph fought Dark Leo, and was beating him:

No Caption Provided

Raph was able to disarm and beat Dark Leo, and even tells him that he'd never be able to get the upper hand on normal Leo one on one.

So let's see how Leo normally does against Karai, when he is functioning at 100%.

Karai vs Leonardo

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Leo manages to parry every attack she throws, flip over her, disarm her, then one-shot KO her with a head butt. He makes his take down of her look easy.

Karai vs Leonardo: Round 2

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

While Leo is in the middle of fighting off a horde of Foot Ninjas, he is attacked by Karai. He deflects her blows, takes a cut to the arm, then turns with the blow and kicks her, putting her down again with a single attack.

So that's two skilled opponents now, that the turtles don't just beat, but do so rather easily. I'm not trying to say either of these characters would necessarily beat the Mirage turtles, but I do think it's very impressive how quickly and easily the turtles can beat these two characters, who are not even written as jobbers, but highly dangerous and skilled martial artists.

Let's get away from martial arts for a moment, and tackle an opponent who is simply a brick-house, and an awesome villain-turned ally of the turtles:

Slash

No Caption Provided

Man, do I love Slash. This gigantic snapping turtle started off as a lab experiment at stockgen labs. He was basically an idiot with almost no intelligence, and had no other desires then hunting down and killing the turltes. He's since become not just intelligent, but highly intelligent, and is not only an ally of the turtles, but one of the more honorable characters in the series, seeing himself as a true super hero. He still rages out and goes beast mode like he did when he was dumb from time to time though, and that's the Slash the turtles fought, and beat! So let's dig in a little to Slash.

First things first. Slash is strong. Like really strong. People see him and his turtle appearance on the battle forums, and assume that he is maybe a little stronger then the turtles since he's bigger, but he's not just a little bit stronger. He's a LOT stronger. He's an honest 50 tonner, as seen in this first set of scans:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

While fighting against Null forces, Slash is slamming all of them so hard, that they are flying straight through solid steel. That's not the most impressive part though, the power he generates from him just fighting, derails the train and sends it flying.

I looked up what an average unloaded train car weighs, and it's anywhere from 30-40 tons. This one has people on it, mutants, and Slash, who weighs at least a ton himself. The amazing part is, he wasn't even trying to lift the train, he was just fighting. The power of his movements were enough to do that, and not just derail the train, send it flying through the air. So I think calling him a 50 tonner, is a low estimate and I'm being fair on that. If he's able to throw a train off it's tracks so easily, without actually lifting it, then that shows some serious combat power, which really is more important then straight lifting power anyways.

Besides that though, he has a lot of your typical super strength brick character feats, like rag dolling hordes of fodder with a single toss, like here where he throws about a dozen armored humans with a single toss with ease:

No Caption Provided

He can rip these surprisingly powerful robots in half with nothing but arm strength:

No Caption Provided

The aftermath of him breaking out of Stockgen shows a scene where he threw a car through the side of a building:

No Caption Provided

He was even capable of one-shotting Captain Tragg, one of Krang's high ranking Rock Soldiers.

No Caption Provided

Captain Tragg is not some mere fodder Rock Soldier. He isn't loaded with feats, but him and another Rock Soldier, General Granitor, were able to give a great fight and pretty much stale mate with Bludgeon and Koya, who are both massively superhuman in their own rights. I'll talk more about those two later, but the fact that Krang KO'd him with a single punch shows serious superhuman striking strength.

Which is backed up by how huge of a whole he can punch in a concrete wall with a single strike:

No Caption Provided

Multiple times:

No Caption Provided

And he can use a telephone poll as a base ball bat with ease:

No Caption Provided

And throw a shipping container all the way across a shipyard to set up a distraction for Sally Pride.

No Caption Provided

And back to striking strength, he puts down Hun, who is very much a superhuman, in a single punch:

No Caption Provided

Just before this, he was taking base ball bat swings to the face and feeling nothing from them. He had baseball bats break on his arms with zero damage. Heck, he was even getting shot by an assault rifle, yet none of that damage was able to even slow down Hun, yet Slash puts him down with a single punch:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

That's not the only time Slash has put down Hun like this though, it's happened twice now.

No Caption Provided

Slash was able to again one-shot Hun, this time by smashing his head through a wall with a lot of strength.

Slash again, fights Hun and saves Mikey from him. This time, he one-shots Hun again with a headbutt, but then just keeps pulverizing his basically lifeless body:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

That's three times now that he's been able to one-shot a very durable superhuman.

Slash is more then just strength though, he is quite the speedster too. Capable of moving fast enough to avoid barrages of bullets (even though he is bullet proof).

No Caption Provided

That was more just running, not real bullet timing, and he does get hit with a few, but like I said, he is bullet proof so a few bullets don't really matter, but he does manage to make himself a hard target, as in that one scene there are 22 bullets fired at him, and only 2 hit him.

He does have extremely fast movement speeds in short burst though, as seen here where he stopped Old Hob from killing one of their hostages:

No Caption Provided

Slash was able to dash around Old Hob, faster then he was able to pull a trigger. That shows some very impressive speed, specially based on him being a brick character that are not normally written so speedy.

He has an even faster speed feat though, and it was to save Mikey from the Rocksteady throwing a car at him:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The car was only 2-3 feet away from colliding with Mikey before Slash moved. You can tell by the bottom scan that shows how close the front wheel of the car is to Mikey's body:

No Caption Provided

Yet Slash was able to dash in front of the car before it hit Mikey. That is some serious speed. At least superhero peak human, borderline above even.

Being a massive superhuman turtle, he is also obviously very durable. You've already seen in the scans of him Knocking out Hun that anytime Hun has punched him, it doesn't do a thing to him, and Hun has some pretty serious strength. He crushes through concrete with his strikes:

No Caption Provided

And here he breaks apart a brick wall, after punching through several Savate Ninjas before hitting the wall:

No Caption Provided

A single punch from him sends Mikey flying, causing the wall to crater behind him:

No Caption Provided

And his Thanos style Pimp Hand is enough to one-shot Old Hob:

No Caption Provided

When he was jumped by the Purple Dragons, he put down each and every one of them with a single attack:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

So when Hun lays a beating on Slash like this:

No Caption Provided

And Slash come out of it just yelling but showing no pain, and one-shots Hun again before pummeling his lifeless body, then you can tell that Slash is a serious tank when it comes to durability.

I've already shown him taking two bullets that just bounce off of him, but it has happened a few times now:

No Caption Provided

He was shot in the face from point blank range without even taking damage.

Slash isn't completely invulnerable though, he does have his limits, and I've already shown them from before when I was commenting on his speed. For him to be KO'd, it required the strongest character in the series to throw an entire car at him.

No Caption Provided

But anyways, Slash has proven capable of one-shotting massively super human characters, and has shown strength in the 50 ton range based off of his train feat, with lesser consistent feats to back up his enormous strength. He's also shown his level of speed is no joke either, so let's see how the turtles did against him in their battle:

Slash vs the Turtles

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

So it's a pretty big fight. It's a great fight though, and worth clicking through. I'll highlight a few scenes from it though, to show what I find it noteworthy about the battle in regards to the turtles.

Take a look at SCAN 6

No Caption Provided

I've shown Slash's durability. He's bullet proof, taken repeated blows from Hun with zero damage, but look here when Mikey gets to really lay into him. It drops Slash for just a second so it's not really a game changer, but it does hurts him. Slash is screaming the word "HURT!" after being hit. Mikey's written as one of the powerhouses of his brothers when it comes to pure physicals, and you can tell why here when he was able to not only put Slash down, but physically hurt him with blunt force damage. The only other character who has hurt Slash with blunt force damage threw a car at him. Now Mikey wasn't able to KO him, but that would be PIS and bad writing if that would have happened so easily. What did happen though, is the writer's showed how powerful Mikey can be when his brothers are in danger. Mikey is usually seen as the weak link, but if his brothers are threatened by some of the Mirage turtles, then they could be facing some punishing attacks coming out of Mikey's corner.

Now take a look at SCAN 11

No Caption Provided

Leo was able to use a triangle hold and choke Slash out, while his brothers pounded on him. It almost works too. Now in the next scan, Slash powers his way out of it, and throws all of the turtles off of him in an explosive attack, but I do still want to point out this scan. This happens after the turtles have been pummeled by Slash. Slash has been delivering powerhouse strikes on them. Remember he was able to derail a train with his punches, and this is the same brute Slash that was doing that. The turtles weren't "tanking" those attacks as in they were struck, and took zero damage from them. They did all manage to stay conscious and fighting, but the pages before Leo tells his brothers to try this strategy of choking out Slash, they were all so severely beaten by Slash, that they had trouble even standing. Even though they could barely even stand though, they all came together as a family, and were able to bring Slash down to the ground. This is a driving theme of the book. No matter how defeated the turtles may look, when they are working together as a family, and when there family is in danger, they find strength to take on an even bigger challenge then they should be able to, and this time it was Slash. Now the Mirage boys are dangerous and deadly, there is no denying that. The IDW boys though, if they see how threatened their brothers lives are, then they kick up their abilities another notch, and are capable of pulling through almost anything. Which we do see here, as Leo even resorted to deadly force in:

SCAN 17

No Caption Provided

This is what happens when one of the IDW turtles see their family in trouble. They become capable of putting down monsters as powerful as Slash. You can see in that page just how much of a beating the turtles had taken too. Now that the fight is over, they are all just lifeless bodies on the floor, but up until this point, they were continuing to give it more then should be physically possible given the punishment that was being laid upon them.

So now we've seen the turtles easily beat 2 very skilled opponents, and now they were put through the ringer, but came out on top against a massively powerful monster like Slash. What's important to note so far though, is that all of these feats have been from when the turtles were barely a shade of the combatants they are currently in the series. When they fought Slash, it was only issue 15 and 16, so it was still very early in the series. This was still around the same time that Splinter was able to solo them to teach them a lesson about getting too used to only fighting one type of enemy. They have advanced so far beyond since then, that they were even selected to be warriors in an inter-dimensional gladiator tournament, where the greatest warriors in the multi-verse throw down to see who is the best. Naturally, the turtle's win:

1st Round

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

2nd Round

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10

First off, if you're wondering why it's black and white, it's because it's an annual. Whenever IDW does an annual, Kevin Eastman does all of the art for it, and they keep it black and white to honor the Mirage comics.

Anyways, not only do they beat every warrior, but they lead a revolt against those that host this brutal tournament.

And just like you've shown with Triceratons, the turtles face one here. The Triceratons are beastly at IDW as well, and the turtles were forced to fight him without their normal weapons. This one was Zog too, a very impressive Triceraton who we see from thousands of years in the past in previous micro-series. They had to use hit and run tactics, and hitting him from all sides, basically they fought him like ninjas.

No Caption Provided

Zog was capable of beating Krang in a one on one fight too, which is no small feat. Krang is massively superhuman, and is on the same playing field in fighting skills as Shredder, as they've been very even matchups for each other, which makes sense as Krang has possibly millions of years of experience.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

He was basically a one man army in the Triceraton rebellion and the near extermination of the Utrom race.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Fodderizing Utroms is no easy feat. Utroms are not written as comedic relief jokes, but dangerous genius war-lords and super soldiers. The turtles have had their chance to face the toughest of all of them too in:

Krang

No Caption Provided

Krang has been around for at the very least 68 million years. It's actually more likely longer then that, as the Utroms were the ones who created Triceratons, and Triceratops were around 68 million years ago. We know his father was an admiral at the time of Triceratons being created as learned in the Turtles in Time Microseries, and we see Krang in his Villain issue, speaking to his father.

While in his youth, Krang was nothing but a spoiled son of an admiral, and later leader of the Utrom army. In an attempt to make himself a more capable warrior and leader, he goes off to war to prove himself. On his very first mission, his ship is put down, and he is stranded in a deadly swamp, without any sort of power armor. Utroms are pretty pathetic warriors without their tech, but Krang shows the making of a deadly genius, and masters his deadly environment.

No Caption Provided

In a swamp full of dangerous aliens, an Utrom is at the bottom of the food chain, but Krang is determined to fight to the top, regardless of his shortcomings.

No Caption Provided

Using nothing but a stick, Krang defends himself from the much larger predator, and lives to fight on. He then sees the swamp as an opportunity to grow stronger:

No Caption Provided

He fights the wildlife, makes tools and traps, and finds strength in himself that he never knew he had.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

He is no longer at the bottom of the food chain after only a few days, but the top. He seeks out the lizard who originally attacked him, and dominates him. He forces the lizard to serve him. Not being content with just survival though, Krang is determined to rule more then just a swamp. With nothing but a sharp stick and his new lizard mount, he continues with his mission, to conquer an entire planet's people on his own.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

He sneaks into the enemies' base, and goes right to their leader, Traxus. He kills the warrior leader, with nothing but his wits and a sharp stick. The soldiers present see this, and some of the warriors see Krang as a new leader with his determination and abilities as a warrior leader. Krang leads a takeover with the few who turn to his side, and successfully conquers his enemy, and brings several of them over to the Utrom army to serve as willing soldiers under his leadership.

No Caption Provided

While I'm not trying to make a case for unarmored Krang, but just showing his warrior abilities as a completely inexperienced rookie. His determination and natural warrior's intellect make him incredibly dangerous, no matter the situation, against almost any opponent. Giving him a massively powerful suit of power armor, and then you're looking at serious threat. Also take into consideration that he has had millions of years of experience, and Krang becomes legitimately one of the most, if not the most dangerous character in the multi-verse.

You've already seen that the strength of his outdated suit was capable of matching a Triceraton in strength, but his newer suit continues with that strength, but also comes with weapons galore.

No Caption Provided

His lasers completely fry his enemies to a crisp:

No Caption Provided

But power and weapons are only as good as the warrior using them. Krang though, is an incredibly skilled warrior. He's even stalemated Shredder on their first go at it.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Krang, thinking he has ended Shredder instantly when negotiations do not go the way he would have liked. Shredder has expected this though, and his armor was only a decoy for an explosive meant to kill Krang.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The explosion was huge, taking out the entire top half of the ship, but Krang steps out with no damage, and proceeds to one-shot Shredder's escape helicopter.

Shredder looks out numbered with no escape, but his two newest mutants, Koya and Bludgeon, ambush Krang and his army.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

When Koya, who has shown to have some of the best combat speed of the series, soars for an attack, Krang deftly side-steps it. He has proven to have very great agility and reaction times in his suit. Bludgeon, who is not as speedy, but is very strong and durable then charges him, but Krang casually swats him aside with a laser blast. Shredder and Krang then face off.

No Caption Provided

When they clash, Krang does show the speed and skill to block Shredder's initial sword slash. The next series of attacks show Krang take an early offensive, and uses his tactics and tech very well.

No Caption Provided

Krang fires, and Shredder dodges, but he dodges right where Krang was expecting and follows up with a backhand that sends Shredder flying. While Shredder is on his heels, Krang doesn't let up and fires 22 missiles all at the same time, and all at Shredder. This should be enough to put any normal human down, but Shredder has a lot more in him then a normal human.

No Caption Provided

Shredder comes out basically with zero damage, which is incredible. Anyways, now Shredder goes on the attack, and using very speedy repeated strikes, until he breaks through Krang's armor, and lodges one of his swords. Shredder then goes on the offensive, and uses his ability to read opponents weaknesses and slashes behind Krang's knees, bringing him to the ground.

No Caption Provided

At this point, Krang goes down, but he also raises his weapons to point blank on Shredder's face. At the same time, Shredder's sword is aimed right at Krang's face, no the power armor face, but his actual Utrom face. They have reached a stalemate. If either attack, then they both will die. Koya however flies in, unwilling to let her master die, and the fight ends with her fleeing with her master.

So from their first fight, we see Krang do exceptionally well against the world's most deadly man. Both of them were at advantages and disadvantages at certain points of the fight, and even when Krang was going down, he wasn't going to go down without taking Shredder with him. It was an excellent fight, and shows off the skill and power both of these war-lords possess.

This was not their only meeting however, they meet on one more occasion, and this next fight has a much more decisive finish.

In this fight, Krang has an upgraded armor again, and he is fighting on his home turf on Burnow Island. He opens up with the first attack:

No Caption Provided

Shredder dodges the massive punch, that shatters the earth upon impact. Shredder draws his sword and presses the attack:

No Caption Provided

Krang has had a sword built into this armor, and he not only defends himself against Shredder, he cuts Shredder's sword clean in half. This is some amazing skill, based on the ridiculous feats Shredder has done with a sword himself. More on Shredder later though.

Krang follows up with a barrage of bullets, which Shredder acrobatically dodges:

No Caption Provided

After Shredder dodges, Krang has to turn his back to him to deal with foot soldiers attacking him from behind. Shredder uses his speed to pick up an axe and sink it into Krang's face shield, but the glass is much more durable this go around, and it does not penetrate. Krang retaliates, and his back hand sends Shredder flying. While he's got Shredder down, he beats his face to a pulp:

No Caption Provided

Krang expects Shredder to stay down, and to his astonishment he gets back up to continue the fight. He is definitely on the losing end at this point of this fight. Krang ends up walking away from the battle here, as he has other concerns, and he is about to destroy all life on Earth besides those that can survive an Utrom atmosphere at this point anyways, so he's not too concerned with the outcome of this fight. Sadly, we don't see the end, but Shredder is definitely hurting here, more then he has from any fight we've ever seen from him at this point in the series. Krang was the first real opponent who had the power and skill to match him, and in this case, even prove to be his better, if only for a short time. So let's see how the turtles do against him.

Krang vs Leonardo and Michelangelo

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10

Now this fight happened somewhat early on in the series as far as how the turtle's skills have progressed. Now that being said, Mikey and Leo do exceptionally well against a foe that should be by far their superior, as he has much more firepower and the skills to stalemate and even prove to be the better then Shredder in a fight. This fight does end with Mikey pretty much dead to rights, and is interrupted by Donny's tech ability to basically take down Krang's army. Still, there is a lot to show off the abilities of Mikey and Leo here, and they do very well for only being half the team against such a powerhouse. I'll highlight a few scans.

Check out SCAN 3

No Caption Provided

While under a massive barrage of fire, Leo weaves his way between lasers, and manages to slice right through Krang's armor, taking off his arm. Even Shredder needed repeated blows with his sword to slice through this version of Krang's armor. He then takes a massive punch from Krang, and is smacked hard enough into the wall to leave a crater behind him. As seen in the fight though, he is right back fighting immediately.

Here's SCAN 8

No Caption Provided

Neither Leo or Mikey's attacks have been doing enough damage, and Krang has been successfully using his weapons to keep them divided. Leo then switches tactics, and gets Mikey to attack as a team. Leo goes high, and Mikey goes low. While Krang's armor holds up, he isn't really able to defend himself. When he retaliates, Leo goes low, and Mikey goes high, constantly moving to present difficult targets, and allow them to stay up close where the turtles can now push the offensive.

After this, a Neutrino gets shot, and Krang shatters a pillar with a punch to separate Leo and Mikey, and that's how he gets Mikey stuck and basically beaten without Leo there to back him up.

Luckily, the turtles do get a chance to face Krang again, and this time Mikey and Leo have Raph with them.

Krang vs Leonardo, Michelangelo, and Raphael

This fight takes place immediately after Krang beats Shredder, so you know this is Krang in top form.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

This fight is much later in the series. The turtles have returned from North Hampton. They have grown from their experiences and advanced in their training. Even without having Donny with them, the three turtles all but stomp Krang in this battle. It is pretty one-sided for the turtles, and this is saying a lot given how well Krang did against Shredder immediately before this fight. You can really see growth in the teamwork and tactics of the turtles. I'll highlight a few pages again.

Here's and example of their flawless teamwork and use of tactics in SCAN 3

No Caption Provided

Krang is about to bring his sword down on Raph, and all three turtles, all in unison, move into action to turn Krang's attack on himself. All of these actions happen at the same time.

  1. Leo slides in front of Raph to catch the sword with his own
  2. Raph vaults over Leo's shoulder and above Krang's weapon to shove his sai into Krang's armor's head
  3. Mikey hits low at the same time as Raph hitting high, each in opposite directions.
  4. The combined force of both turtles, one high, and one low, and in opposite directions puts Krang down hard.

That's some pretty superb team work against an opponent who is more powerful and maybe even more skilled then themselves.

Another example of some awesome teamwork is in SCAN 5

No Caption Provided

While a single kick from any of them would not have been enough force to do any real damage, all three of them kicking in unison, along with Raph's inital attack, and they put Krang down for good. I love this ending to the fight, with their perfectly timed kicks all in a spot that Raph had just made vulnerable. You can really see the evolution of the team at this point in the series, now that they are taking down some of the most powerful characters in their multi-verse when they fight together.

And they really have been taking down some of the most powerful characters in their multi-verse. Early on, they took down Nub-Shiggurath, although he was not at full power. More recently though, they've taken on one of the gods of their universe, and not only was he at full power, but he was amped to an even larger power level. This character is Chi-You.

No Caption Provided

There's not a lot to say of Chi-You before he met the turtles. He is one of a Pantheon of a trio of immortal gods along with Kitsune and the Rat King. They are all siblings, and date back to before history has recorded.

No Caption Provided

They are still pretty shrouded in mystery as they are the driving force behind the current story arc, but these gods have shown pretty extreme levels of powers. When the turtles met Chi-You, it was when they, and him, were transported to the Ghostbusters universe. In the Ghost Busters universe, Chi-You could sense the abundance of paranormal energy in that universe, and was able to absorb this energy to amp himself to become even more powerful.

And what has happened to me? I feel different....changed...more powerful....
And what has happened to me? I feel different....changed...more powerful....

The TMNT/GhostBusters fight this amped god on several occasions, and for the most part, they weren't able to do much to him. He is completely invulnerable to physical damage, as attacks phase right through his body. The turtles all demonstrate the ability to dodge and mostly avoid attacks from him during their fights, and they eventually come up with tech through prep with Donny and the Ghostbusters that allow them to actually fight against ghosts, possessed minions, demons, and gods.

They at one point even need to take down a possessed and amped Casey Jones.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Casey does pretty good against the turtles. You have to remember that they are holding back here, as none of them wanted to hurt Casey. Raph however, knowing Casey better then any of them, does eventually put Casey down and save him.

Anyways, now the turtles are getting ready for the final battle, but so has Chi-You, and he has sent an entire army of demons to attack them.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

The turtles are able to use martial arts along with their new tech to take down the army, and then the only thing left to do is take down Chi-You himself.

The Ghostbusters think that they have it under control, as they have taken down multiple would be world destroying gods at this point, that it's barely even a big deal to them anymore.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Chi-You proves to be more then the normal god that the GB's are used to taking on though, and escapes the trap, possessing Winston in the process right when they think they have him beat.

No Caption Provided

Now the turtle's are fighting the physical embodiment of Chi-You as a giant bull.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

They aren't really physically beating him, but they are able to hang in with him until Mikey can unload mood slime on him to free Winston from the possession, and they can trap him for good. They again show great teamwork in setting up the shot. I like this scan in particular:

No Caption Provided

Raph goes high with a kick made to look like it would push Chi-You into the trap. It's a ninja tactic as Leo explains though:

"We are ninja Chi-You. He was distracting you from the real attack."

Leo was able to use Raph's distraction to push Chi-You into the trap Venkman had set up. It worked perfectly, beating the god before he could react and possess someone else.

continued in next post....

Avatar image for tparks
#41 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

Part 2 of 2

So let's look at just who I have pointed out so far that the turtles have been able to beat.

  • Highly skilled superhuman assassin - Alopex
  • Highly skilled martial artist and archer - Karai
  • Vastly 50 ton superhuman giant speedster beast - Slash
  • The greatest warriors in the entire mult-verse in a Gladiator style tournament
  • Military warlord with millions of years of experience and a very powerful suit of power armor - Krang
  • A god that has been amped beyond his already godly power levels - Chi-You

That's a pretty good set of victories, but there is still one character that needs to be discussed in a TMNT thread, and that of course is the biggest of the big bads, Shredder. I know I've gone a long ways into this, but before I get to Shredder, I would like to briefly touch on his mutant muscle, because the penultimate fight of the first 50 issues leads right off of these 4 characters:

Bebop & Rocksteady; and Koya and Bludgeon

No Caption Provided

Remember in the beginning how I said there are a few types of mutations possible from ooze? Well these are the most powerful versions we've seen so far. Bebop and Rocksteady were two thugs with some talent for violence, turned into the two most powerful characters in the series by combining the ooze with animal DNA, and giving them huge amounts of strength, durability, and an unexplained ability to just not be phased in the slightest by what should be extremely lethal damage.

Koya, I do not believe is one of these mutations. We do know that she was a trained hawk of Shredders before she ever was made a mutation, but because she still goes by the name Koya, I do believe that she is just a mutated hawk, and there is no human mutation involved. She has physicals similar to the turtles because of this, but increased speed due to her flight and bird physiology.

Bludgeon I'm not sure on. He hasn't had a ton of feats or backstory explanation, but he is very much superhuman, going beyond even the turtles by quite a bit, as he can be shot in the mouth at point blank range, and he is still bullet proof from damage like this.

Anyways, here's a little about each of them.

Bebop and Rocksteady

Now both of these two were already capable street fighters. Neither were particularly skilled, but both were tough as nails. They were selected for mutation by proving to be the deadliest of the original test subjects Karai had hand chosen. They had to fight with the other potential candidates and they beat their opponents to unconsciousness with nothing but their fists.

No Caption Provided

Now that they have been mutated, their strength is absolutely massive. The first time they ever really used their new bodies, they were casually joking with a group of ninjas, and Bebop jokingly flipped his finger into a ninja's chin, and it instantly KO'd him. His finger alone, while in a casual joke without putting any of his real strength into it, is enough to one-shot people.

No Caption Provided

When the ninjas get upset about their "joke", Rocksteady jokingly punches one of them in the arm, trying to tell them to "lighten up", and this is what happens:

No Caption Provided

That's Rocksteady trying to playfully punch someone, as in not even cause pain. Just think of what he can do when he is actually trying to use his strength. That's not just one window that ninja flew through either, as in the following scene, you see that the ninja would have had to fly through several walls before making it to that window. We know this, because Rocksteady charges through these walls like they are paper.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

They end up causing so much damage in their fight without even trying, that the building collapses in the process, and while fleeing the scene, they are tossing cars out of the way as if they were weightless.

No Caption Provided

That's not the only building they would destroy this day either. Sick of their apartment, they decide to bring it down...from the inside.

No Caption Provided

This wasn't like the last building, where they destroy so much support that it collapses, this is them instantly busting a building. As soon as they decide to bring it down, they start laughing and we see the building fall. It wasn't a gradual process, but them just being that powerful. This also shows off their extreme durability, as they are laughing about a building falling on their heads, which is par for the course for them, as this is the first of two times this has happened.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

They come out of a building falling directly on their heads with zero damage whatsoever. This is immediately after being shot with a missile:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Shot repeatedly by a gattling gun:

No Caption Provided

Shot by a pistol:

No Caption Provided

Hit repeatedly with nerve strikes and pressure point attacks by Splinter:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And then electrocuted:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

All of that happened immediately before having a building dropped on their faces, and yet it still did not even begin to wear them down as you can see by the last panel in the last scan above. This is like the definition of tanking attacks.The thing is though, even if they would have attempted to run them through with swords, it doesn't even do a lick of good to these two.

No Caption Provided

The damage seen in the scan above did not even phase them. They annihilated a horde of foot soldiers with those weapons inside of them, and they don't even act like it phases them in the slightest.

I could post a lot more from these two, but I think what is shown is enough to show that these are by far the most powerful two characters mentioned in this entire CaV. I want to move on to Bludgeon and Koya though.

Koya and Bludgeon

These two aren't loaded with feats, but what there is from them is quite impressive. Koya is one of the leaders of the Foot Assassins, who I've already mentioned once or twice as being the very elite of the Foot Clan, capable of fighting on an even ground with even the turtles. Koya herself is very skilled, and uses her speed and agility very well in combat.

Her first appearance shows her and a group of Assassins tearing apart the turtles and Splinter. It's important to note here, that the turtles are all pretty banged up and injured from the events of City Fall at this point. Splinter is still even recovering from a broken leg.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Injured or not, the way Koya solo'd Donny and Splinter, shows that she has extreme skill. I'm not saying she could do that to either of these two at 100%, but even a 50% Splinter is a tough combatant, as we've seen him go through a Foot Soldier Gauntlet early in the series, and he is narrating the issue talking about how his body aches to the point it can barely move, yet he still solos an entire horde of Foot Soldiers, a giant Foot Soldier, Alopex, and Karai, and then goes on to give a decent fight to Shredder. So I find this feat still very impressive. I find she gets even more impressive as the fight goes on as well.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Leo shows up, and the tide of the fight instantly swings to the turtles favor. That's just the kind of effect he has on the team. They manage to KO all of the assassins, with some help from Alopex (as seen somewhat in her section above). Leo gives Koya a great fight, regardless of his own injuries. She does end up taking the advantage though, and even manages to solo Leo and Splinter at the same time, getting the advantage shortly on both of them. This shows some very extreme skill. Raph then attacks her, and she again does a good job countering him. It finally takes Mikey hitting her with a motorcycle to the face to drop her, and even then she tanks it pretty well. The only reason she ends up defeated is because Leo holds a sword to her throat, forcing her to admit defeat.

Now obviously, that would never happen to a fully healed team, but this is after the exausting events of City Fall, where they just finished their first battle with Bebop and Rocksteady who delivered some punishment, and all of them were nursing severe injuries. Still though, Koya is no joke.

As for Bludgeon,

He shows some enhanced strength, able to swim with enough power to explode through the hull of a ship and through the deck to surprise Krang's army, while Koya dives from the sky to hit from above.

No Caption Provided

He has the speed to avoid a blast from Krang. I wouldn't call it laser timing, but he does at least get out of the way.

No Caption Provided

Then he was able to tank automatic rifle fire, showing he is bullet proof, while charging through to KO some soldiers.

No Caption Provided

They eventually kill or KO the entirety of Krang's forces on his ship, and are left to deal with just Granitor and Tragg, Krang's two elite Rock Soldiers. Both Koya and Bludgeon show that they can overpower both of them.

No Caption Provided

Bludgeon was even shot in the inside of his mouth, and took zero damage from it. That shows just how superhuman he is. Unfortunately, this is where the fight ends, as the ship begins to sink and the two save Shredder instead of continuing the fight, but they do square off in a later issue.

No Caption Provided

They both again are soloing most of Krang's army, and then square off with Granitor and Tragg again. Most of this fight happens off panel, but you can see that Bludgeon again is overpowering them, and Koya is dodging bullets while charging from the air. This is about the best page of fight unfortunately, but we see at the end of the battle, that the entire foot army has been defeated, but Bludgeon and Koya are both still standing and the only two to make it out and keep fighting.

So let's see how the turtles do against all four of the mutant muscle of the Foot at the same time.

Bebop, Rocksteady, Koya, and Bludgeon vs The Turtles

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8

So it's another pretty huge and epic battle. They had to face not just one, or even two massively superhuman combatants, but all four at the same time. They've never been able to beat any of these characters before, but here when their family is in danger, they pull through and find a way. They're beaten so badly in this fight, that in the middle of it, they are all put down, almost knocked out, but they still find the strength to not only get back in the fight, but win it. There's so much that I could point out from this fight scene like I have been doing in each other section of this post, but since this is one of my favorite fights of the series, I want to let it just speak for it self, and encourage anyone who reads this to actually click through each page, instead of me showing what I like about it.

I really wanted to show this fight too, because it leads right into the turtles last fight with:

Shredder

No Caption Provided

Shredder needs little introduction to the battle forums anymore, but just a brief summary. He's lived three separate lifetimes thanks to re-incarnation. His second lifetime lasted for centuries thanks to Utrom ooze reversing his aging process. It is also what allowed him to resurrect for his third and current lifetime. What's important to note for a battle, is that he has been the single most dangerous being on the planet in every life time, and he has continued to increase his skill at dealing death across the centuries.

I do want to start by saying I do not think Shredder is Super Human. When I first started reading the series, I thought the Ooze he bathed in for 400 years would have had to have granted him some enhanced abilities, but his physicals are that of a peak human. This was explained in the letter columns of one of the issues a few months back, and explained the differences in how the Ooze works. It was said that Shredder was able to become immortal from the ooze and stop his aging and heal from any wounds/sicknesses with it, but it did not grant him physical enhancements outside of this. He is peak human as in Batman standards though, where what he does is nearly impossible by peak human standards in many other fictional universes. The difference is that Shredder has been able to master his fighting abilities for so long, that his strikes are extra painful and hit with perfect precision, and he has shown the ability to read his opponents fighting tendencies and weaknesses in an instant and capitalize on them. For example:

No Caption Provided

"Most warriors follow a certain path, and each path has it's own weaknesses. Discover the weaknesses, strike fast, and you can prevail. Some fight low to the ground, exposing the face to an easy attack. Some only work in close quarters, allowing their opponent to simply step back and strike. Some are formalists, too accustomed to rules and regulations, easily surprised."

Shredder can read his opponents, even when fighting against armies on his own, which surprisingly enough, the first time we ever see Shredder, he is literally fighting an entire army on his own.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
"To kill one man, Ashikaga had sent a legion of warriors."

It took an entire legion of warriors to take on Shredder (who at this time is known as Takeshi Tatsuo in his first life). Even with an entire army against him, he kills each and every soldier completely on his own. This is how IDW set the tone with Shredder, him soloing an army.

Later, when Karai shows a similar feat of being able to take on multiple attackers and exploit their weaknesses, Shredder goes on to prove a lesson to her that she still is not anywhere near his abilities:

No Caption Provided

In seconds, he dismantles all of them with absolute ease.

The only person who could possibly ever match him in combat at IDW, would be himself, but even then, Shredder still wins. Lol.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Shredder actually did face off against a future version of himself while in Hell between his second and third lifetime, and he won.

I'm really tempted to fill this page with a ton of Shredder stuff, but because this post is way longer then I normally write already, I think I am going to cut this section short, only because the turtles have never outright beat Shredder at this point. There is always context to the fights. Now, it's all but implied that Shredder has been cloned by Krang from thousands of years in the past, so there's a pretty good chance that we will see the turtles all face their own Shredders at some point in the future, but it hasn't happened yet.

What has happened though, is that Leonardo has faced Shredder one on one while time traveling into the past.

Shredder vs Leonardo

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8

This is Second Gen Shredder, so he isn't as familiar with superhuman combatants at this point, but it doesn't change the fact that Leo straight up beat Shredder in a one on one fight. There was no outside context, like fighting several powerhouses immediately before, just a straight up fight, and Leo came out on top. The only reason Leo doesn't kill Shredder here, is because Raph convinces him not too, because of the effects it would have on the time stream, and ultimately Krang destroying all life on Earth. Leo knowing this though, was still real close to killing Shredder.

Early on in the series, the turtles did take Shredder on as a team, and they did do pretty good against him.

Shredder vs Turtles: Round 1

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

Now, Shredder holds his own against all four of them for the better part of this entire battle. Towards the very end, when they attack with better team work, they do get a quick advantage on him. This looks like an outright win, but Shredder doesn't really pursue them, which he easily could have. It's not like he was KO'd, he just then noticed the leadership and skill of Leo and the potential he had as a warrior. Shredder then and there he realized he wanted Leo as his Chunin, so he lets them leave for now.

Still though, the turtles do manage to get the advantage on Shredder for a short time, and this was early in the series. Leo shows the ability to lead his brothers so well too, that Shredder sees him as a very valuable warrior that he would sacrifice letting Splinter get away just so he can later add Leo to his army.

The last battle I'm going to show, is the final battle between Shredder and the turtles. Anyone who doesn't want spoilers of issue 50, shouldn't read the next part.

Shredder vs Turtles: Round 2

There will be spoilers in the text after this too!!!

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Shredder does win here, and he does so decidedly. I'm not denying that, but this is Shredder on a level never before seen in the series. Splinter goes on to beat him and even kill him after this, but it required Splinter spending the entire day psychically searching the Astral Plane to discover a weakness in Shredder's abilities. Even after doing this, he still had a very difficult fight with Shredder, when he normally is able to stale mate him as in their previous encounters, so Shredder is clearly fighting better then we've ever seen him. This also takes place immediately after the Turtles were forced to fight Bebop, Rocksteady, Bludgeon, and Koya all at the same time, and in the middle of that fight, they were all close to beaten already, so they aren't going into this fight at 100%.

That being said, they still do show some decent ability. All of them get their shots in on Shredder, and Mikey at the end surprises Shredder with his abilities.

No Caption Provided

Shredder comes back and puts Mikey down after this, but Mikey did put probably the best beating on Shredder then all of his brothers. This is important, because if forced to fight violent fighters like the Mirage turtles, who have exceptional skill, it can force Mikey to drop the care-free attitude, and become one of the most punishing combatants of all of his brothers. His striking power is no joke, and if he is pushed to the point of defending his family, or showing anger, then he becomes a serious powerhouse that would be a top threat in a fight. This is likely to happen in character when facing the Mirage turtles and the way they fight.

That covers a lot of my favorite battles of the turtles, and I do think it shows that the turtles aren't just beating your generic villains. None of the characters they fight are jobbers, and all of them have feats to make them capable of fighting just about any other street level character in other universes, yet the turtles of IDW have been consistently beating them.

Closing

I'm not going to break down every point you brought up, because I don't necessarily disagree with much of it, and I don't think I need to counter everything you said. I'm just going to address your main point of your last post, and what the sort of theme of this thread has been, because I think that's what it all comes down to.

So again, what is the end result? Stats are comparable, but in the end the biggest factor is that Mirage Turtles have simply been through more shit, and are all Masters by themselves unlike the IDW versions. The Mirage Versions went from barely able to deal with Perfect Carnage to Leo soloing him over time. That is the level your guys have not measured up to at all yet. They are behind in experience and skill. Always will be IMo as the Mirage had serious and insane comic arcs, compared to the more balance IDW, and Mirage have 20 years of stories to pull from. Mirage also have lesser morals to killing and maiming, which spells further doom for IDW versions. In the end, it be a god fight, but IDW will lose.

I disagree to this to quite some extent. Have the Mirage turtles really been through much more? I don't really see what they have done that is outside the realm of IDW comics. Both have fought inter-dimensional armies. Both have fought very powerful superhumans. Both have been selected for an inter-dimensional tournament of the best warriors in the multi-verse and won. Both have defeated the Foot Clan even. Both have even shown the ability to fight off telepathic attacks now which was the only thing Mirage had really done that IDW hadn't (I didn't include this in the thread since it wasn't really applicable, but Leo had the mental discipline to fight off TP from the god Rat King). While Mirage has done all of this first, does being the original make them better, just because they did it first? I really don't see a gap in experience and skill between the two. There really isn't anything the Mirage turtles has done that would say they have this step up in skill, when the IDW turtles have a ton to back up that there skill is at least at the same level. Some of the more technical details of the turtles skill has been explained quite well through IDW too, and the same has been done of their enemies. What has been shown isn't any lesser then what was done at Mirage. After all, Kevin Eastman is still writing for IDW, who also wrote Mirage, so it would be strange for him to write the IDW turtles as lesser ninjas now that the series has advanced so far with over 100 issues now when including the micro-series. It's not like they are young un-experienced rookies anymore, they are masters of their own abilities, and it shows in the series.

This was a lot of fun. Sorry this took so long to get my last post up, but I don't get a lot of chances to sit down and type much and I had to remake every one of the scans in this, so I'm glad I could finish it. We can do votes if you want, but either way the votes go, I'm just glad there is one thread where there is a bunch of TMNT info in one spot for the battle forums to use now. :D

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#42 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for tparks
#43 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#44 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Title changed for votes!

This was a lot of fun. Sorry this took so long to get my last post up, but I don't get a lot of chances to sit down and type much and I had to remake every one of the scans in this, so I'm glad I could finish it. We can do votes if you want, but either way the votes go, I'm just glad there is one thread where there is a bunch of TMNT info in one spot for the battle forums to use now. :D

Im glad we finished this one unlike the last one. This been a long time in the making. I think everything TMNT comics relevant can be found here.

Make some call outs. I cannot open to votes till later tonight.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#45 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for allstarsuperman
#46 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43006 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice, I'll read it today

Avatar image for ultimate_knight
#47 Edited by Ultimate_Knight (10933 posts) - - Show Bio

Woah...

If I get the time, I will read this and give my vote.

So it might take awhile, so I am sorry about that.

Avatar image for primez0ne
#48 Posted by Primez0ne (9808 posts) - - Show Bio

I may try reading through this and voting. Just remind me if I take too long.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#49 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

BUUUMP

Avatar image for primez0ne
#50 Posted by Primez0ne (9808 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: @sirfizzwhizz: This was a hard decision. I am not knowledgeable on comics version of the TMNT and have to rely on what's posted here for knowledge. From what I can see here both versions are clearly very close if not even on most stats and both have very impressive skills. I honestly want to say this is a draw. I think that's pretty lame though so I will give my vote to tparks. Although sirfizzwhizz did show some pretty impressive feats for his turtles I think tparks putting in extra effort to show the abilities of IDW's rogue gallery helped me to see in a more detailed way why these villains are so dangerous. That and I think his points about teamwork help to balance out Mirage's ruthlessness.

Good job to both and this could honestly go either way imo.