CaV: Thor(Kevd4wg) vs Beta Ray Bill(BPIB)

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#1 Posted by Kevd4wg (14282 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor: God of Thunder

Represented by kevd4wg
Represented by kevd4wg
No Caption Provided

Beta Ray Bill: Horse of Thunder

Represented by BlackPantherisB
Represented by BlackPantherisB

Rules

  • Win by Death/KO/Incap
  • Standard Gear
  • Morals Off
  • Starting Distance is 100 feet
  • Battle takes place on an Open Field on an indestructible Planet.
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#2 Posted by Kevd4wg (14282 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Amendment50 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh snap.

T4V

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#4 Posted by blackpantherisb (7602 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: Nice. Who do you want to open?

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#5 Posted by Kevd4wg (14282 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by blackpantherisb (7602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Rac95 (5926 posts) - - Show Bio

That will be epic. TAEP

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#8 Posted by Amcu (17499 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm interested in this. I'd love to be tagged after every post.

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#9 Posted by SupremeGeneration (12960 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:

I'm interested in this. I'd love to be tagged after every post.

The Live Action GOAT debater asking for tags in a comic debate? Wow.

OT: TAEP.

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#10 Posted by Destinyishere (365 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#11 Edited by Amcu (17499 posts) - - Show Bio

@supremegeneration: I think comic debates have always been more interesting to me than live action. More feats to argue with makes it more interesting. The knowledge and skill of the debaters gets tested more extensively IMO. I mainly don't debate comics myself because I don't want to read all of them.

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#12 Posted by skywalker95 (5917 posts) - - Show Bio

This battle is one for the ages.

TAEP.

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#13 Posted by Kevd4wg (14282 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:

@supremegeneration: I think comic debates have always been more interesting to me than live action. More feats to argue with makes it more interesting. The knowledge and skill of the debaters gets tested more extensively IMO. I mainly don't debate comics myself because I don't want to read all of them.

Can't blame you for that. I will say for LA that the accessibility of feats make it easier for good debaters to shine rather then just debaters with extensive knowledge/reading like sometimes can happen with comics.

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#14 Posted by Amcu (17499 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: Yeah. Its very difficult to debate something without extensive knowledge on whatever your debating. Makes it a lot easier for live action where you just have to watch a movie or maybe just a few fight scenes on YouTube.

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#15 Posted by blackspidey2099 (7127 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#16 Posted by TakenStew22 (5881 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V and TAEP.

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#17 Posted by marveld2 (1002 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#18 Posted by darthvaderrocks (2970 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#19 Posted by King-Ragnar (5166 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#20 Edited by blackpantherisb (7602 posts) - - Show Bio

Beta Ray Bill

"I say thee nay!"

Strength

For starters Thor and Bill have been consistently portrayed as physical equals, even in Bill's very first appearance they directly matched each other in strength:

Thor #337 - DOOM!
Thor #337 - DOOM!

When the pair grappled neither could gain a clear advantage, and the two were essentially evenly matched. I'm fairly confident that right off the bat we can agree that these two are physically equal in strength. Now lets move on to striking power, an advantage that I believe Bill holds:

Thor #338 - A Fool and His Hammer...
Thor #338 - A Fool and His Hammer...

Beta Ray Bill and Thor directly match each other in hammerless striking power, KOing each other and producing a shockwave that levels the mountainous area around them. This is certainly an impressive feat, though it's not until Bill gets Stormbreaker that his feats really start to get impressive:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Thor #83 - Ragnarok Part The Fourth

With only a few lightning amped blows Bill was able to completely vaporize Fenris Wolf, turning him into an actual skeleton. This is notable considering that in the previous issue (Thor #82 - Ragnarok Part The Third) Thor was unable to put Fenris down with his hits, and during the same arc in Thor #80 - Ragnarok Part The First Fenris' body was completely unscathed from a multi-mountain busting blast. So overall Bill obliterating him like this is a fairly ridiculous feat.

Silver Surfer #86 - Blood and Thunder, Part 2: Friends & Foes
Silver Surfer #86 - Blood and Thunder, Part 2: Friends & Foes

Here Beta Ray Bill matches Thor's Mjolnir strike with a blow from Stormbreaker, now you might ask how this proves that Beta's striking is superior to Thor's, however this was not normal Thor, this was Thor during the Blood & Thunder arc, who was in Warrior's Madness and was operating way beyond his base levels. Just an issue before in The Mighty Thor #468 - Distant Thunder Thor shattered a planet/planetoid by hitting Bill in the face, and in the same issue Odinson KOed Silver Surfer in only a couple of blows, and he then went on to dominate Thor and Adam Warlock at the same time in Warlock and the Infinity Watch #23 - Blood and Thunder, Part 4: Clash. He was practically a teambuster at this point due to his Warrior's Madness, and yet Bill actually managed to match him in striking power, despite the Thunder God's amp.

Overall, while the two aren't far off from each other in the strength department I contend that Bill has slightly superior striking power, an advantage he will certainly press in this fight.

Durability

This is another category were Bill has a distinct advantage, it's going to be very hard for Thor to actually drop Bill with his blows and lighting, I'll start with his blunt force durability:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Thor #338 - A Fool and His Hammer...

Thor and Bill trade equally powerful blows (their strikes literally directly match each other) and both are KOed, though Bill recovers long before Thor does despite them both tanking a blow of the exact same force. That illustrates a fairly clear picture of their durability. It's undoubtedly close, but Beta has a notable advantage. Keep in mind that Bill actually took an onslaught of blows from Warrior's Madness Thor before being KOed:

The Mighty Thor #468 - Distant Thunder

It takes a Blood and Thunder Warrior's Madness Thor five large blows, one of which destroys the freaking planet/planetoid that they're on, and a direct lightning blast to drop Bill, and the Horse God was holding back/distracted during the whole fight and got back up fighting shortly afterwards. And I've already elaborated on why this version of Thor's striking is so impressive, but if you're still not sold consider the fact that he oneshotted Classic Drax with a single hammer swing in The Mighty Thor #469 - Absolute Power. Ya' know that same Drax who could trade and tank blows that destroy planets from their shockwaves (Iron Man #55 - Beware - Beware - Beware the Blood Brothers!), and rip apart the cores of stars and endure their explosions (Captain Marvel #43 - Destroy! Destroy!). Overall during such a beating is a pretty insane durability feat, and Thor will struggle to replicate the striking power of his Warrior's Madness self. Moving onto how Bill will handle lightning and energy blasts:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1 - The Saga of Beta Ray Bill

In these scans Beta is hit with a blast so powerful that it completely destroys half of an entire planet, yet Bill needs only a couple of seconds to recover before he is fully back in action. Obviously Thor's lightning almost never reaches this level of power, so saying that it will be hard for him to drop Bill with his storms is practically an understatement.

And many of Thor's blows will combine the power of Mjolnir and Thor's lightning, but Beta can handle similar more powerful attacks:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Thanos: The Infinity Revelation

Thanos goes at Bill with pretty much everything he's got, he starts off the an energy charged punch, and then blasts Beta dozens of feet away, Bill then gets back up and continues to fight, Thanos then batters the Horse-God in with 6 energy charged blows before Bill actually gets put down. Needing a total of eight attacks from Thanos to be put down is no mean feat. Silver Surfer was nearly killed in Cosmic Powers Unlimited #1 - Issue #1 by the exact same number of attacks (I'm not claiming that Surfer is less durable than Bill, simply giving a reference of Thanos' power).

Overall I feel that it's going to be very tricky for Thor to actually put Bill down.

Speed

This is undoubtedly the largest advantage that Bill holds in this fights, and it will certainly prove useful in combat with the God of Thunder. I'll start out by just displaying a feat that encapsulates Beta's general speed:

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1 - The Saga of Beta Ray Bill
Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1 - The Saga of Beta Ray Bill

After Galactus fired a blast Beta manages to easily read to it, and displays combat speed by incepting it, overpowering it, and hitting Galactus. Clearly Beta's speed was comparable (if not superior) to the blasts. And what makes this so impressive is that the exact same blast, only a couple pages before, covered a large interplanetary distance in only a couple of panels:

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1 - The Saga of Beta Ray Bill
Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1 - The Saga of Beta Ray Bill

So essentially with blast would be LS/FTL, and yet Bill casually react to, and performed combat operations at comparable speeds to it. This already solidifys Bill and lightspeed+, and he actually does apply it in combat:

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #2 - The Crumbs of Galactus
Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #2 - The Crumbs of Galactus

Using his speed the Horse of Thunder manages to dodges dozens of laser blasts from Scuttlebutt, granted he did eventually get tagged, though it still stands as a speed applications showing none-the-less. And Bill also uses his speed to gain an advantage in combat:

Silver Surfer #86 - Blood and Thunder, Part 2: Friends & Foes
Silver Surfer #86 - Blood and Thunder, Part 2: Friends & Foes

During the Blood and Thunder arc Beta manages to outmaneuver Thor's charge, then hit him before he could get his bearings, dodge another blow, and beat Thor down before he could react. A pretty clear-cut showing of Beta using his superior speed to gain the edge on Thor.

Now I'm not arguing that Bill is going to be blitzing Thor left right and center and Beta certainly doesn't apply his speed like Flash or Superman, but the speed gap is pretty huge, and Bill applies his speed often enough for it to be a relevant factor in CQC, giving Bill yet another combat advantage.

Storms and Versatility

This is probably the one category I'll have to ceed to Thor, though they're not far off from each other. For starters I'll talk about some of Bill's more defensive tactics that he can use Stormbreaker for. For starters he can use his hammer as a shield to protect him from oncoming attacks:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

One: Bill uses his hammer to completely block a massive assault from Stardust. (Beta Ray Bill: Godhunter #1 - Godhunter) Two: Beta blocks a massive blast from a Super-Skrull and erects some sort of shield. Granted he was using Mjolnir, but it's pretty well established at this point that Stormbreaker and Mjolnir are equals, so the feat should be applicable here. (Secret Invasion: Thor #2)

This ability could actually be useful in blocking some of Thor's lightning attacks and such.

As for offensive lightning he can channel and call down massive blasts of lightning, just like he did here against Fenris:

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Thor #82 - Ragnarok Part The Third

And this is also a decent feat of power for Bill's lightning since his blast put Fenris on his ass, who was shrugging off Thor's lightning easily in the issue before (Thor #81 - Ragnarok Part The Second). Now let's get into some of the more juicy offensive stuff: the sheer power of Beta's lightnings:

The Thanos Imperative #4 - Part 4
The Thanos Imperative #4 - Part 4

With a fairly casual lightning discharge from Stormbreaker Horse-God skeletonizes Cancerverse Colossus. Obviously obliterating Mid-Tiers in such a fashion is impressive, though Bill has even better showings against High-Tiers:

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1 - The Saga of Beta Ray Bill
Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1 - The Saga of Beta Ray Bill

Bill and Stardust are pretty much well established equals when it comes to energy projection and output, and this is pretty damn impressive given the fact that Stardust has actually managed to heavily stun/temporarily KO Beta himself with single blasts. (Beta Ray Bill: Godhunter #1 - Godhunter)

Conclusion

Really there's not doubt that this will be a close battle. Bill and Thor essentially have the exact same powers, and feat-wise are very close to each other in ability, but overall Beta should win in combat. His strength is equal to Thor's, but his striking power and durability are slightly better, and speed is a category in which Beta holds a pretty massive advantage. Granted Bill doesn't use his speed to dominate his opponents, but he actually uses it fairly often in combat and it does provide hi with a distinct close-quarters advantage. Storms and energy projection are probably the only categories where Thor is actually superior to Beta, but it's certainly not a wide gap, and given the fact that both usually brawl I think it's safe to say that Bill's advantages are slightly more important.

It's certainly a close fight, but in the end Thor will lose to Bill.

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#21 Posted by blackpantherisb (7602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by skywalker95 (5917 posts) - - Show Bio

Fantastic opener.

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#23 Posted by TakenStew22 (5881 posts) - - Show Bio

Good opener.

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#24 Posted by Kevd4wg (14282 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Kevd4wg (14282 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor: God of Thunder

All the power of the storm, from all the world, flows through my veins, and can be summoned by mine hammer at any time, wherever it is. A lightning storm in Japan? Mine. A hurricane off the coast of Barbados? Mine again. A brace of tornadoes in Kansas? Aye...mine. All that might, all that destructive force, mine to command. Channeled and guided through the mystic might of this hammer, guided right at thee!
All the power of the storm, from all the world, flows through my veins, and can be summoned by mine hammer at any time, wherever it is. A lightning storm in Japan? Mine. A hurricane off the coast of Barbados? Mine again. A brace of tornadoes in Kansas? Aye...mine. All that might, all that destructive force, mine to command. Channeled and guided through the mystic might of this hammer, guided right at thee!

An Introduction to Thor Odinson

Bio

He was born to Odin, became an arrogant Jerk, wasn't worthy, became worthy, became part mortal, and then became King of Asgard after Odin died and less then that when Odin came back.

Powers and Abilites

  • Superhuman Physicals
  • Flight
  • Insane Pain Tolerance
  • Weather Manipulation
  • Powerful Lightning
  • Earth Manipulation
  • A really cool hammer

General Overview

I'd like to start by saying that was a great post and got me really excited for this CaV. In terms of each character, I think both have a few advantages. Bill is obviously faster and I'd give him a slight edge in durability, however I'd give Thor a small edge in striking, an advantage with the Destroyer arm, pain tolerance, and most importantly a large advantage in Storms and Lightning.

Physicals

I'm gonna try to get through this quickly because it's the least important to the battle, but I do have some things to say/address.

Strength

For starters Thor and Bill have been consistently portrayed as physical equals, even in Bill's very first appearance they directly matched each other in strength:

While Bill and Thor do hold equal innate strength, since that point Thor had that arm replaced with Uru and later(and even better) it was replaced with the Destroyer. We've already seen this give Thor a strength edge on Bill in The Unworthy Thor #3 where he flew into a beserker rage and was near the point of crushing Bill's throat and killing him while Bill couldn't stop him. Thor did that with the Uru arm, now Thor's packing a Destroyer arm so he's on another level from even that.

When the pair grappled neither could gain a clear advantage, and the two were essentially evenly matched. I'm fairly confident that right off the bat we can agree that these two are physically equal in strength. Now lets move on to striking power, an advantage that I believe Bill holds:

Here I disagree, I do believe Thor holds an advantage in Striking power, particularly when he combines lightning with his striking, so I'll address the scans you've posted.

With only a few lightning amped blows Bill was able to completely vaporize Fenris Wolf, turning him into an actual skeleton. This is notable considering that in the previous issue (Thor #82 - Ragnarok Part The Third) Thor was unable to put Fenris down with his hits, and during the same arc in Thor #80 - Ragnarok Part The First Fenris' body was completely unscathed from a multi-mountain busting blast. So overall Bill obliterating him like this is a fairly ridiculous feat.

Firstly that seemed to come more from his energy then his striking as he hits Fenris a few times with his hammer and not a lot seems to happen, only when he vaporizes Fenris with the energy coming off him does he die. However, very importantly, when Thor was unable to put Fenris down, he didn't have Mjolnir and so was hitting him with his fists, while also in a fight with Loki (Thor vol 2 #81), yet he was able to beat both down enough that they ran away, and we well know that Mjolnir is a massive amp to Thor's striking.

Here Beta Ray Bill matches Thor's Mjolnir strike with a blow from Stormbreaker, now you might ask how this proves that Beta's striking is superior to Thor's, however this was not normal Thor, this was Thor during the Blood & Thunder arc, who was in Warrior's Madness and was operating way beyond his base levels. Just an issue before in The Mighty Thor #468 - Distant Thunder Thor shattered a planet/planetoid by hitting Bill in the face,

Some things real quick, firstly, I don't really trust saying Bill hits harder then Thor by their hammers matching. We've seen that Uru hammers hitting each other have some really special properties(Like Thor and Bill destroying the portal, or the God bomb), so I don't think we can say them clashing equally means their wielders are necessarily the same strength. Plus to me it kinda looks like Bill hit the side of Mjolnir instead of the front where the force would be backed, more like a block then a head on collision.

Also, I think it was pretty clearly an Asteroid Thor was on

Overall, while the two aren't far off from each other in the strength department I contend that Bill has slightly superior striking power, an advantage he will certainly press in this fight.

I kinda have to reverse this. Thor's Destroyer Arm provides him quite the advantage in the strength department(plus Bill hitting Thor there isn't going to do anything). Additionally, I think Thor has a marginal advantage off his combining of lightning with Mjolnir to perform feats like supplying the energy to merge two entire planets in New Avengers #24(1,2).

Durability

Now going into this, I do think that Bill has a minor durability advantage that would even out Thor's minor striking advantage to where both would probably equally struggle to put each other down with hammer throws, but Thor's lightning will help him put down Bill a lot easier.

Thor and Bill trade equally powerful blows (their strikes literally directly match each other) and both are KOed, though Bill recovers long before Thor does despite them both tanking a blow of the exact same force. That illustrates a fairly clear picture of their durability. It's undoubtedly close, but Beta has a notable advantage

I wouldn't use this as an example as it's pretty heavily implied Odin sent them to this planet because it's temperament was more suitable to Bill in order to give Thor a lesson in humility. For example when we see Bill gets back up it's because the heat revived him, and later he himself says he was born in a galactic inferno that the battlefield was similar to, giving him an edge - he even says "in no other realm could I have won the contest," which would imply that in pure H2H Thor is superior(and that's before Destroyer arm and without his edge in weather control). Later Odin has a conversation with Thor where he seems to imply it was indeed a lesson in humility, but says fights in the future could go either way.

So if anything, I would say the context of this encounter actually puts it in favor of Thor

It takes a Blood and Thunder Warrior's Madness Thor five large blows, one of which destroys the freaking planet/planetoid that they're on, and a direct lightning blast to drop Bill, and the Horse God was holding back/distracted during the whole fight and got back up fighting shortly afterwards. And I've already elaborated on why this version of Thor's striking is so impressive, but if you're still not sold consider the fact that he oneshotted Classic Drax with a single hammer swing in The Mighty Thor #469 - Absolute Power.

This is impressive, but I think you're overselling it. For one, Drax was up and fine within a couple of pages, secondly I take basically all showings with stupid Drax with a grain of salt. He was too stupid to tap into his actual strength, do things like brace for hits(which affects his durability), and he's got severe brain damage so it's possible hits to the head would do more to him, so I definitely don't think you can compare his feats in stupid form to his normal form, which you're basing his durability off of.

Ya' know that same Drax who could trade and tank blows that destroy planets from their shockwaves (Iron Man #55 - Beware - Beware - Beware the Blood Brothers!)

That's not what happened, in the comic it flat out says the Planetary explosion weakened him so he could be captured

and rip apart the cores of stars and endure their explosions (Captain Marvel #43 - Destroy! Destroy!).

For one that's his highest end feat, and secondly he only performed this in an insane state of rage over the fact that Thanos is dead, probably comparable to Thor under WM.

So yeah, Thor will have problem putting him down with Striking, but Bill will have problems putting Thor down the same way. However, I don't think Thor have much issue putting Bill down with lightning.

In these scans Beta is hit with a blast so powerful that it completely destroys half of an entire planet,

That's objectively false, it destroys half of the surface of the planet, but the planet itself was not destroyed. It's more like multi continental and not even moon level. Thor has replicated stuff like this pretty easily like in The Unworthy Thor #5 where he sends a giant lightning bolt through a solar system sized ship. Considering the size of that ship, that blast would've had to be planetary AoE in size, bigger then Bill's. Furthermore, it seems that Thor lost his precision with his lightning/storms once he lost Mjolnir so with Mjolnir he can channel that power into a single lightning bolt, like for example the bolts that ripped the skin off of Void in Siege #3 for reference, Void easily shrugged off a going all out hit from Thor just pages earlier.

And many of Thor's blows will combine the power of Mjolnir and Thor's lightning, but Beta can handle similar more powerful attacks: Thanos goes at Bill with pretty much everything he's got

Yeah... no. Thanos was literally treating this as a workout and not an actual fight. Look at how he's lecturing Bill on his strategies during the fight and even says to Warlock that he's just having "a little exercise" to Warlock's fear he would kill Surfer so he clearly wasn't going all out.

Silver Surfer was nearly killed in Cosmic Powers Unlimited #1 - Issue #1 by the exact same number of attacks (I'm not claiming that Surfer is less durable than Bill, simply giving a reference of Thanos' power).

And here Thanos absolutely was going all out for the kill, contrasting from Infinity Revelation. I mean in Beta Ray Bill: Godhunter #2 we saw pretty clearly who was superior of the 2 in terms of physicals

Overall I feel that it's going to be very tricky for Thor to actually put Bill down.

It might be a bit tricky, but I don't think he'll have as much issues with his lightning as Bill will have with his striking.

Speed

Yeah Bill has a speed advantage, but to be fair, he's never really abused his speed in a fight with Thor before, even amped Thor so I'm hesitant as to whether he'll do it here, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he could probably use it a bit. Not that it'll help him much.

This is undoubtedly the largest advantage that Bill holds in this fights, and it will certainly prove useful in combat with the God of Thunder. I'll start out by just displaying a feat that encapsulates Beta's general speed:

Just want to start by saying that's a great speed feat I've never caught before, definitely going to use it the next time I rep Bill, nice catch.

During the Blood and Thunder arc Beta manages to outmaneuver Thor's charge, then hit him before he could get his bearings, dodge another blow, and beat Thor down before he could react. A pretty clear-cut showing of Beta using his superior speed to gain the edge on Thor.

Yeah I don't have a problem with saying Bill would fight like this, however it's important to note that B&T Thor was pretty dumb and not at all using his powers to the fullest, so I don't think it's a fair showing of what would actually happen in this battle.

Fortunately, Thor has answers to speed. For example his far superior Storm manipulation compared to Bill can help counteract his speed. Like in Thor #473 he trapped him and High Evolutionary in a tight and powerful tornado that wouldn't allow Bill to maneuver around and use his speed.

Storms, Lightning, and other Things

This is the area where I think Thor has a huge advantage and will ultimately lead to his victory. Firstly I know that you mentioned Bill using Stormbreaker as a shield, but I have a problem with that. For one, Lightning is far less predictable then an energy blast and a lot less telegraphed, Thor can just think and summon in a lightning blast on Bill like he does to stagger DSS(a lot more powerful then Bill) in Uncanny Avengers #11 and there's no real way for Bill to see it coming and block it.Bill's going to have a hard time blocking that with Stormbreaker, and even if he does it leaves him open to a bullrush from Thor just like he did to DSS.

Bull rushes are another tactic Thor likes to use that gives him an advantage over Bill. Take for example Iron Man/Thor #3 where Thor one-shots an amped Ulik(to the point where he gave Thor serious trouble previously) with a bullrush. That's going to do major damage to Bill and stop him for long enough for Thor to start repeatedly pounding on him like he did to an Alternate future Gladiator in Thor vol 2 #35. When faced with an assault like that where Bill is given no time to recover before being smacked by another blow from Mjolnir that staggers him again, Bill will quickly fall. Especially once lightning is brought in.

And this is also a decent feat of power for Bill's lightning since his blast put Fenris on his ass, who was shrugging off Thor's lightning easily in the issue before (Thor #81 - Ragnarok Part The Second). Now let's get into some of the more juicy offensive stuff: the sheer power of Beta's lightnings:

Thor hit him with a bit of lightning from a broken Mjolnir, if he calls down powerful blasts from the sky we know he can do a lot more then that(like with Void in Siege).

Bill and Stardust are pretty much well established equals when it comes to energy projection and output, and this is pretty damn impressive given the fact that Stardust has actually managed to heavily stun/temporarily KO Beta himself with single blasts. (Beta Ray Bill: Godhunter #1 - Godhunter)

Assuming you are talking about this, I think it's pretty clear that Bill was faking being injured to get in close with Stardust, hence how he immediately grabs her and starts smacking her down onto the planet.

Beyond all that, we know that Thor can summon lightning powerful enough to one-shot himself as can be seen in Heroic Age:Prince of Power #4(1,2) so it's incredibly likely he can one-shot Bill as well, something I don't think Bill can do for him. Which is important because Thor's pain tolerance is simply off the charts. If Bill struggles to one-shot Thor, he's not putting him down easily because even significant injuries mean little to Thor. For example in Thor: God of Thunder #8/9, Young Thor, whose arguably weaker then adult Thor, gets pulled to the future after having recently been tortured(like the night after he escapes) for 17 days by Gorr and then gets tortured, beaten, starved, and forced into hard labor some more and yet he then goes on to have a huge fight in Space with Gorr with literally 0 problems. Oh and he shrugs off a country level explosion in the process.

Or in The Mighty Thor #1-5, Thor has a massive wound in his side yet it does not slow him down for a second in fighting Silver Surfer. This means that quite simply unless Bill can put down Thor easily(which he can't), Thor is going to be fighting at peak performance after basically every hit. While Bill has some good pain tolerance as well, I don't think the same can be said for him.

Finally, I want to talk about Thor's storms which are waay more potent compared to Bill's. Take for instance in Thor vol 5 #11 Thor was flying around upset in the sun and just his angry mood was enough to cause Weather disasters on a planetary scale on Earth. Think about how crazy that is. And in Thor Annual 2001, Thor creates a storm powerful enough to stop a planet busting beam. Think about the sheer power that storm would've had and if Bill could hold up well in that storm, much less abuse his speed edge on Thor and land good hits. Meanwhile Thor can bullrush through it and take Bill out in an onslaught of hits.

Conclusion

Quite simply, I just think Thor is a step above Bill. I'll cede Bill a small(and insignificant) edge in Durability that evens out Thor's edge in Striking and Bill certainly has the advantage in Speed. But while Bill has an advantage in Speed(which he really doesn't abuse that well), Thor is packing far superior lightning, weather manipulation, and strength from his destroyer arm all of which have the power to work on Bill(some even shown directly on panel). Adding onto this is Thor's resolve and fighting ability, his insane pain tolerance, his use of bullrushes and building momentum on opponents.

Now in your post you mention that Thor likes to brawl, but honestly I think that's kind of a misconception. Sure Thor definitely fights in Melee and he's damn good at it, but he does use a lot of lightning as well and quite a bit of Storms, even some skill from time to time. So just simplifying him as a brawler(whereas I kinda think that's where Bill is most effective) is unfair.

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#26 Posted by Kevd4wg (14282 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Edited by Ready_4_Madness (18799 posts) - - Show Bio

Taep

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#28 Posted by TakenStew22 (5881 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice post. Worth the wait.

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#29 Posted by skywalker95 (5917 posts) - - Show Bio

Amazing comeback. Things are definitely getting interesting.

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#30 Posted by Battle123axe (9683 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP. Really good stuff so far.

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#31 Posted by blackpantherisb (7602 posts) - - Show Bio

Round Two

"I... I have the power! The stick was the hammer! And now I... I can feel the power of the demon himself added to my own! Power enough to shake this planet to its foundation!"

Strength

While Bill and Thor do hold equal innate strength, since that point Thor had that arm replaced with Uru and later(and even better) it was replaced with the Destroyer. We've already seen this give Thor a strength edge on Bill in The Unworthy Thor #3 where he flew into a beserker rage and was near the point of crushing Bill's throat and killing him while Bill couldn't stop him. Thor did that with the Uru arm, now Thor's packing a Destroyer arm so he's on another level from even that.

I doubt that the arm had anything to do with Thor overpowering Bill in that instance. Firstly Beta Ray Bill was heavily holding back and was confused as to why Thor was attacking him, and secondly it was expressly stated in those scans that Thor was in Warrior's Madness, which is well established to be a notable amp, so this really doesn't stand as a valid example of Thor's superior strength.

Firstly that seemed to come more from his energy then his striking as he hits Fenris a few times with his hammer and not a lot seems to happen, only when he vaporizes Fenris with the energy coming off him does he die. However, very importantly, when Thor was unable to put Fenris down, he didn't have Mjolnir and so was hitting him with his fists, while also in a fight with Loki (Thor vol 2 #81), yet he was able to beat both down enough that they ran away, and we well know that Mjolnir is a massive amp to Thor's striking.

Well Fenris had tanked a large lightning bolt from Bill moments before Beta started wailing on him, so the feat seems to be an example of Beta using his lightning to boost his striking power, something he regularly does in combat, rather than just a lightning feat. And as for the example you gave of Thor trying to put Fenris down, that wasn't the fight I was referencing. I was talking about this exchange:

Thor #82 - Ragnarok Part The Third

Fenris explicitly tanked multiple blows from an Uru-Hammer wielding Thor during the fight, the instance I was referring to from the issue you're talking about was how Fenris was able to easily tank Thor lightning:

Thor #81 - Ragnarok Part The Second
Thor #81 - Ragnarok Part The Second

As you can see Fenris was hit by Thor's lightning and wasn't slowed down by it, the Thunder God ultimately Captain America needed to intervene. And keep in mind that it was explicitly noted that the Fenris that Beta obliterated was more powerful than the Fenris that appeared in this issue.

Some things real quick, firstly, I don't really trust saying Bill hits harder then Thor by their hammers matching. We've seen that Uru hammers hitting each other have some really special properties(Like Thor and Bill destroying the portal, or the God bomb), so I don't think we can say them clashing equally means their wielders are necessarily the same strength.

If you're referring to Bill and Thor destroying the Star-Dwarfing portal in Thor #340 - Though Hel Should Bar the Way nowhere does it talk about the power of the Hammers amplifying or nullifying each other, Thor pretty much just says that if the two collide and their power combine the Portal will be destroyed. All it is is a ridiculous outlier for both of them. And I'm not sure what you're talking about with the God Bomb instance, but it really seems like you're grasping at straws with this argument. It to my knowledge it has never been stated or even implied that clashing two Uru Hammers together has any specially properties, I suppose you could potentially make the shaky case that it amplifies the users striking power, but even if it did amp both Thor and Bill's striking, they were still evenly matched, so that point wouldn't even be relevant in this context.

Plus to me it kinda looks like Bill hit the side of Mjolnir instead of the front where the force would be backed, more like a block then a head on collision.

Oh come on, the Hammers clearly matched, they just collied side-on instead of head-on, at this point you're argument is just getting silly.

Also, I think it was pretty clearly an Asteroid Thor was on

It definitely couldn't have been just an asteroid, it had to atleast have been a planetoid. It was covered in dozens of mountains/volcanos, and it was rounded which means that it has be to atleast 600 kilometers in diameter:

The Mighty Thor #461 - Friends And Lovers
The Mighty Thor #461 - Friends And Lovers

So it certainly wasn't just a regular old asteroid, it was clearly significantly larger. Likely planetoid-moon Level. Overall you're entire analysis regarding the feat is pretty much bullsh*t.

I kinda have to reverse this. Thor's Destroyer Arm provides him quite the advantage in the strength department(plus Bill hitting Thor there isn't going to do anything).

There's literally no evidence to suggest this.

Additionally, I think Thor has a marginal advantage off his combining of lightning with Mjolnir to perform feats like supplying the energy to merge two entire planets in New Avengers #24(1,2).

Providing enough force to move a planet is undeniably impressive, but it's still a full tier below busting one, which is something that Bill has actually done:

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #3
Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #3

With a single bullrush Beta Ray Bill slams Stardust into a planet hard enough to destroy it, this is obviously more impressive than Thor's planet moving feat. And Beta consistently replicates this level of striking power. Hell, in he same issue only a couple of pages later he completely obliterates Stardust with a lightning-amped strike:

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #3
Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #3

And keep in mind that Stardust is a massive, massive tank. In the same series he tanked a clap from Galactus that KOed Bill himself (Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1 - The Saga of Beta Ray Bill) and just pages before Bill obliterated her endured a planet-busting bull-rush (Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #3), and in the next issue shrugged off being at the core of a planet during its explosion (Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #4 - Asteroth). So overall being able to destroy her in such a fashion should actually be an above planet-busting striking feat.

I'm fairly confident that both of these feats are above anything that Thor has ever done.

This means that quite simply unless Bill can put down Thor easily(which he can't), Thor is going to be fighting at peak performance after basically every hit

I'd actually say that Bill will be able to put Thor down without exerting himself too much. I've already demonstrated that he can bust planets with single blows and obliterate beings more durable than Thor with his hits, but I haven't even gotten to his best feat. Beta was actually able to KO Pre-Annihilation Surfer in only two whopping blows:

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Warlock Chronicles #7 - Blood and Thunder, Part 7:

Granted Beta's initially hit was a cheap-shot, and I doubt that he could've wrecked Surfer in the same fashion if Norrin had been prepared, but the feat is still absurdly impressive. KOing Silver Surfer in so few blows is obscenely impressive no matter the circumstances, and hits like this will do very heavy damage to Thor.

Durability

This is impressive, but I think you're overselling it. For one, Drax was up and fine within a couple of pages, secondly I take basically all showings with stupid Drax with a grain of salt. He was too stupid to tap into his actual strength, do things like brace for hits(which affects his durability), and he's got severe brain damage so it's possible hits to the head would do more to him, so I definitely don't think you can compare his feats in stupid form to his normal form, which you're basing his durability off of.

Once again this really is just grasping at straws. He was pretty stupid, but if you're smart enough to throw a punch you're smart enough to brace for one. And it was never referenced or stated that Drax's brain damage made it harder for him to endure punches to the head, that's just your convenient head-canon. Hell, its not even like Drax's feats got significantly worse after that, he was still a solid herald tier.

That's not what happened, in the comic it flat out says the Planetary explosion weakened him so he could be captured

Right, and my point was that he traded and tanked planet-busting blows. And you're saying that doesn't make sense because the planetary explosion weakened him? What? If anything it proves my point, Drax tanked the hits that destroyed the planet, but ultimately the explosion of the planet weakened him. That's essentially agreeing with my argument, I never said that Drax tanked the Planet exploding in that instance.

For one that's his highest end feat, and secondly he only performed this in an insane state of rage over the fact that Thanos is dead, probably comparable to Thor under WM.

Right, but mostly I was using the feat in a durability context, and being really mad doesn't increase an individuals durability. Also it's not at all like Thor under WM, since WM grants Thor and explicit amp, making it different than when other comic characters are bloodlusted.

So yeah, Thor will have problem putting him down with Striking, but Bill will have problems putting Thor down the same way. However, I don't think Thor have much issue putting Bill down with lightning. For one, Lightning is far less predictable then an energy blast and a lot less telegraphed, Thor can just think and summon in a lightning blast on Bill like he does to stagger DSS(a lot more powerful then Bill) in Uncanny Avengers #11 and there's no real way for Bill to see it coming and block it.Bill's going to have a hard time blocking that with Stormbreaker, and even if he does it leaves him open to a bullrush from Thor just like he did to DSS.

He really didn't stagger DSS though, just made him scream in pain. Also while lightning is unpredictable Bill's speed is fairly incredible, but I'll get into that more in the speed section. And Bill has actually tanked a similar bolt of lightning from Blood and Thunder Thor after already receiving a massive beating:

The Mighty Thor #461 - Friends And Lovers & Silver Surfer #79 - Survivors

As you can see not only does Beta endure an onslaught of blows from Warrior's Madness Thor, but he also gets directly hit by a lightning bolt and gets smacked seemingly into another solar system (BFRing him), and yet when he is next seen he is standing an fully conscious. Given that WM Thor in Blood and Thunder was operating well above base Thor's levels it's safe to assume that Bill will be able to tank multiple lightning bolts from him without being put down.

Beyond all that, we know that Thor can summon lightning powerful enough to one-shot himself as can be seen in Heroic Age:Prince of Power #4(1,2) so it's incredibly likely he can one-shot Bill as well, something I don't think Bill can do for him.

Firstly, Thor charged his lightning bolt for many seconds before unleashing it on Amadeus, a luxury he certainly won't have in this fight, secondly Thor as actually tanked large-scale lightning blasts from himself in the past:

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Iron Man/Thor #2 - God Complex, Part 2

So it's certainly not as though his lighting casually or consistently operates on the level where it can one-shot it's master. And thirdly Bill's energy durability is well above Thor's. He can literally no-sell being at ground-zero of planetary explosions:

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Beta Ray Bill: Godhunter #1 - Godhunter

This alone I believe is enough to put Bill notably above Thor in terms of energy durability, seeing as Beta was seemingly completely unharmed/unaffected by the explosion, but Bill has been at the epicenter of massive blasts that dwarf planets:

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #3
Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #3

As you can see Bill was essentially unaffected by being at the epicenter of a blast that he and Stardust created which was so massive that it dwarfed planets despite being thousands/millions of miles away from them. Thor just doesn't have energy durability feats that stack up with showings of this level, and we've already seen Beta tank lightning bolts from a more powerful Thor than the version being used here. So oneshotting Beta is really out of the question. Will Thor's lighting hurt Bill? Sure. Will

That's objectively false, it destroys half of the surface of the planet, but the planet itself was not destroyed. It's more like multi continental and not even moon level. Thor has replicated stuff like this pretty easily like in The Unworthy Thor #5 where he sends a giant lightning bolt through a solar system sized ship. Considering the size of that ship, that blast would've had to be planetary AoE in size, bigger then Bill's.

Yeah, but it really wouldn't, the bolt was long as hell sure, but we saw that it was only slightly wider than people and had a roughly equal width to a tree trunk. So it's fairly doubtful that it's overall AoE would be anywhere near planet level. Just to give an example the human small intestine is over 26 feet in length, yet due to it's insignificant width it occupies only a small space inside the human body. Overall Beta tanking a blast that obliterated the surface of a planet is far more quantifiably impressive.

Furthermore, it seems that Thor lost his precision with his lightning/storms once he lost Mjolnir so with Mjolnir he can channel that power into a single lightning bolt, like for example the bolts that ripped the skin off of Void in Siege #3 for reference, Void easily shrugged off a going all out hit from Thor just pages earlier.

So you're essentially saying that Thor's lightning is more potent than his hammer strikes? To me it seemed like Thor hit Sentry with his hammer and amped it with his lightning in both instances (though first instance was off-panel).

Yeah... no. Thanos was literally treating this as a workout and not an actual fight. Look at how he's lecturing Bill on his strategies during the fight and even says to Warlock that he's just having "a little exercise" to Warlock's fear he would kill Surfer so he clearly wasn't going all out.

Thanos was referring explicitly to Surfer since he considers Norrin to be a valuable asset. This is not applicable to Bill. In fact, when he was giving Beta a beat down he explicitly said that even if Bill had asked for mercy he wouldn't have granted it.

And here Thanos absolutely was going all out for the kill, contrasting from Infinity Revelation. I mean in Beta Ray Bill: Godhunter #2 we saw pretty clearly who was superior of the 2 in terms of physicals

Yes, Thanos was going for the kill in Cosmic Powers, but I've already debunked the idea that he was holding back against during Infinity Revelation. Also when Bill and Surfer fought in Godhunter Surfer was Post-Annihilation, so he was significantly stronger than than the Surfer that Thanos beat half-to-death, so the Godhunter example doesn't really hold-up. Also I explicitly stated that I wasn't saying that Bill is superior to Surfer, but rather giving a reference of how powerful Thanos' attacks are.

Finally, I want to talk about Thor's storms which are waay more potent compared to Bill's. Take for instance in Thor vol 5 #11 Thor was flying around upset in the sun and just his angry mood was enough to cause Weather disasters on a planetary scale on Earth. Think about how crazy that is. And in Thor Annual 2001, Thor creates a storm powerful enough to stop a planet busting beam. Think about the sheer power that storm would've had and if Bill could hold up well in that storm, much less abuse his speed edge on Thor and land good hits. Meanwhile Thor can bullrush through it and take Bill out in an onslaught of hits. Now in your post you mention that Thor likes to brawl, but honestly I think that's kind of a misconception. Sure Thor definitely fights in Melee and he's damn good at it, but he does use a lot of lightning as well and quite a bit of Storms, even some skill from time to time.

Okay here's the thing, Thor's storms are undoubtedly powerful, but he really almost never ever uses them when fighting a singular foe, sure he uses lightning in the majority of the fights he's in, but storms? Almost never. I'll cite several of his most notable fights, from both the classic and modern era, to prove my point. Here's a list of some of his most famous and significant fights that he didn't use storms offensively in: His fight with Hercules in Journey into Mystery Annual #1, his fight with Hulk in The Defenders #10 - Breakthrough!, his first ever fight with the destroyer in Thor Annual #2 - If Asgard Falls..., his clash with Kurse in Thor #363 - This Kursed Earth...!, his legendary fight against Surter in Thor #353 - Doom II, the epic battle between him and Perrikus in Thor #10 - The Dark Wars, Part One, his multi-issue duel with Mangog and a Thanosii Thor #24 - Tears For the Fallen & Thor #25 - The Final Morning, his clash with Nul and Angrir in Fear Itself #5 - Brawl, the fight between him and Surfer inThe Mighty Thor #4 - The Galactus Seed 4: To Dual Against Galactus, his encounter with Death Seed Sentry in Uncanny Avengers #10 & Uncanny Avengers #11, and arguably his most famous battle (on CV atleast) Thor: God of Thunder #9 - Godbomb: Part Three of Five - Thunder in the Blood.

In none of these instances (which are some of Thor's most notable and recognized fights of all time and span his entire publication history with Mjolnir) did Thor use his storms offensively. The fact of the matter is that Thor almost never uses offensive storms against singular targets when engaged in direct battle. He uses lighting consistently, but really most of the time he just straight up brawls, and while he'll throw in a lightning attack here and there, he mostly uses them to supplement his CQC. There's plenty of other examples that reinforce my point, but I think you get it.

Now lets get into what you brought to the table in terms of Thor's blunt-force damage output.

Bull rushes are another tactic Thor likes to use that gives him an advantage over Bill. Take for example Iron Man/Thor #3 where Thor one-shots an amped Ulik(to the point where he gave Thor serious trouble previously) with a bullrush.

Okay, a couple of things. Firstly Thor is not going to be able to straight up bull-rush Bill since Beta has reacted to and stopped bull-rushes from faster and more powerful characters, such as Silver Surfer:

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Beta Ray Bill: Godhunter #2 - Godhunter, Part Two

So it's doubtful that Thor will be able to land a clean bull-rush unless he manages to stagger Thor beforehand. Also one-shotting that version Ulik is thoroughly unimpressive considering the fact that Iron Man did that same with singular repulsor blasts multiple times in the same series:

Iron Man/Thor #2 - God Complex, Part 2 & Iron Man/Thor #3 - God Complex, Part 3

That's going to do major damage to Bill and stop him

A bull-rush that one-shotted a guy who was one-shotted multiple times in the same series by a (granted high-level) Mid-Tier is going to do major damage to Bill? The same Bill who can no-sell planetary explosions, endure prolonged beatings from Blood & Thunder Thor, and tank an onslaught of attacks from Thanos before going down? Yeah no. Thor's bullrush in that instance was pretty damn unimpressive, and it'll take a hell of a lot more than that to even hurt/stun Bill, lets alone do major damage to him.

for long enough for Thor to start repeatedly pounding on him like he did to an Alternate future Gladiator in Thor vol 2 #35. When faced with an assault like that where Bill is given no time to recover before being smacked by another blow from Mjolnir that staggers him again Bill will quickly fall.

Yeah, but Bill really won't be stunned by a bull-rush of that caliber at all, and he certainly won't be quick to fall to Thor's blows given that the best striking feat you've displayed so far is Thor providing enough energy with a strike to move a planet, which is impressive, but as I have already talked about, it simply isn't on the same level as actually busting a planet, and Bill has actually been slammed by a planet-busting bull-rush and brushed it off:

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #4 - Asteroth

And keep in mind that this was after Bill had already tanked an onslaught of other attacks from Stardust at this point. Thor will have an exceedingly difficult time putting Bill down with his strikes.

Especially once lightning is brought in.

Yeah, but I'm just not sold that Thor will be able to inflict major damage on Bill with lightning bolts. Especially considering how well Bill stood up to Asteroth's energy attacks:

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Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #5 - Omega: The End

Beta was still able to fight despite the fact that Asteroth was channeling her energy directly into him. And keep in mind that Asteroth in the same issue was shown casually manipulating the gravity of a black hole, and in the previous issue was seemingly flaying multiple planets with minimal effort:

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #4 - Asteroth
Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #4 - Asteroth

Obviously being able to endure attacks from a being of this caliber is fairly insane, and I maintain that Thor will struggle to inflict heavy damage on Bill even with his lightning attacks. Frankly, Bill is just a massive brick.

Speed

Yeah Bill has a speed advantage, but to be fair, he's never really abused his speed in a fight with Thor before, even amped Thor

I mean I literally showed a feat of him using his superior speed to outmaneuver an amped Thor during the Blood and Thunder arc in my previous post. And keep in mind that Bill essentially beat Thor right then and there using his superior speed/mobility, and only ended up getting defeated because he was holding back. Hell he's actually done that on multiple occasions:

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The Mighty Thor #461 - Friends And Lovers

Once again Bill dodges an incoming attack from Thor and then beats him down before the Thunder God can do anything about it, hell Beta even disarmed Thor of Mjolnir, the Horse of Thunder had Odinson full at his mercy. Bill then stops and gives Thor an opportunity to yield (which he only did because Thor is his friend, general Bill will beat his opponents until they are dead or halfway there) which is the only reason why Thor manages to regain the upper hand is that Bill was holding back. A pretty clear-cut showing of how Bill can and will use his speed to gain an advantage on Thor in this fight.

so I'm hesitant as to whether he'll do it here, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he could probably use it a bit. Not that it'll help him much.

I'm fairly confident that Beta will use it in some capacity here, especially since he has abused it against more opponents that just Thor, look at this example of him outright speed-blitzing Stardust:

Beta Ray Bill: Godhunter #1 - Godhunter
Beta Ray Bill: Godhunter #1 - Godhunter

And Bill could certainly speed-blitz Thor given that Beta has operated and moved so fast that what was a milli-second in actual time felt like hours to him:

Cosmic Powers #4 - Legacy
Cosmic Powers #4 - Legacy

And this level of speed is closer to the pico-second range than the nano-second range. Now that's not to say that Bill runs around willy-nilly blitzing people at MFTL speeds (he almost never does) but the fact of the matter is that he does use his speed consistently in combat, and he's significantly faster than Thor.

Just want to start by saying that's a great speed feat I've never caught before, definitely going to use it the next time I rep Bill, nice catch.

Thanks.

Yeah I don't have a problem with saying Bill would fight like this, however it's important to note that B&T Thor was pretty dumb and not at all using his powers to the fullest, so I don't think it's a fair showing of what would actually happen in this battle.

Yeah, but this really isn't true at all, Blood and Thunder Thor wasn't fighting stupid at all, and over the course of only a few issues he used pretty much all of the powers he has available to him in combat:

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One, Two, Three, & Four: In the span of a single battle Thor uses a ground-pound AoE attack, a hammer throw, and calls down lighting on his opponent. (The Mighty Thor #461 - Friends And Lovers) Five: Thor shoots a direct lightning bolt out of his hammer. (The Mighty Thor #468 - Distant Thunder) Six: Thor uses his superior strength to gain the advantage over Silver Surfer. (Silver Surfer #86 - Blood and Thunder, Part 2: Friends & Foes) Seven: Warlock notes that Thor is abusing his speed and is faster than he was before. (Warlock and the Infinity Watch #23 - Blood and Thunder, Part 4: Clash) Eight: Thor uses a massive lighting AoE attack on Surfer and Warlock. (Warlock and the Infinity Watch #23 - Blood and Thunder, Part 4: Clash) Nine: The God of Thunder uses a lighting-amped hammer slam to drop Silver Surfer. Warlock and the Infinity Watch #23 - Blood and Thunder, Part 4: Clash)

Quick note to Mods: I was very through in making sure that the section above was in compliance with the scan rules, hence why I edited so much stuff down to single/double panels instead of full scans. Please don't ban me :P

As you can see Thor abused his strength, speed (which was noted to be superior to base Thor's), and energy projection/manipulation consistently during the Blood and Thunder arc, so claiming that he was fighting stupid is just silliness, if anything he was using more of his abilities than he does in character, and his only major fighting style change was that he was significantly more powerful/better (in every category) and vastly more brutal. The examples of Bill outmaneuvering him are perfectly valid and applicable in this fight.

Fortunately, Thor has answers to speed. For example his far superior Storm manipulation compared to Bill can help counteract his speed. Like in Thor #473 he trapped him and High Evolutionary in a tight and powerful tornado that wouldn't allow Bill to maneuver around and use his speed.

I mean most of the time Bill will just use his speed to outmaneuver his opponents in CQC (i.e. the examples I display of Bill using his speed to get the advantage over Thor), and essentially all Thor is doing there is locking himself and High Evolutionary in close quarters, so if anything that'll be an advantage for Bill. Not to mention the fact that Beta has maneuvered and fought effectively in much more high pressure environments:

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Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #5 - Omega: The End

While being literally pulled in by a massive black hole that was pulling in planetary debris Bill is still able to resist it's pull and engage in combat. Quite frankly if Beta can fight while resisting pressure/pull like this I doubt that Thor's tornado will be able to limit his maneuverability much.

Firstly I know that you mentioned Bill using Stormbreaker as a shield, but I have a problem with that. For one, Lightning is far less predictable then an energy blast and a lot less telegraphed, Thor can just think and summon in a lightning blast on Bill like he does to stagger DSS(a lot more powerful then Bill) in Uncanny Avengers #11 and there's no real way for Bill to see it coming and block it

Yeah, Bill will probably struggle to block lightnings that Thor summons down from the skies, but Thor's go to mode of energy projection is just to blast lightning directly out of his hammer, and Bill will be able to easily react to and deflect attacks like these given that they are well telegraphed. And Bill will have no issue reacting to/blocking Thor's lightning considering the fact that he has blocked FTL blasts from Surfer and reacted to his FTL bullrush:

Beta Ray Bill: Godhunter #2 - Godhunter, Part Two
Beta Ray Bill: Godhunter #2 - Godhunter, Part Two

Overall Beta's speed is a very useful asset that can allow him to defend against Thor's attacks as well as overwhelm Thor in CQC, it has proven to be effective against Thor in the past, and it is yet another solid advantage that Bill has in this battle.

Storms and Versatility

This is the area where I think Thor has a huge advantage and will ultimately lead to his victory.

Huge advantage seems strong. In fact, while Thor does have more versatility when it comes to weather manipulation, but in terms of sheer power output, I'd argue that Bill actually has the edge. His showing against Stardust is something that Thor has never really matched in terms of pure energy projection:

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #3

Here Beta and Stardust clash, matching each other in raw energy projection for an extended period of time until Bill eventually overpowered Stardust, with the force of his blast creating an explosion that utterly dwarfed the surrounding planets.

While Thor's storms can reach this level of power they are not nearly as concentrated as Beta's blast, and he very rarely uses his storms in combat. In terms of sheer energy projection power Bill holds a distinct edge over Thor.

Thor hit him with a bit of lightning from a broken Mjolnir, if he calls down powerful blasts from the sky we know he can do a lot more then that(like with Void in Siege).

The power of Thor's lightning isn't affected by Mjolnir, but rather, as you said yourself, Mjolnir helps to control Thor's lighting. And Thor was directly channeling his lighting into Fenris, so Mjolnir being broken really shouldn't matter. And once again it's worth noting that the Fenris that Bill decked/stunned with his lightning was a more powerful version of the Fenris that shrugged off Thor's lightning:

Thor #82 - Ragnarok Part The Third
Thor #82 - Ragnarok Part The Third

So essentially Bill did more damage to a stronger version of Fenris with his lightning attack than Thor did to a weaker version of Fenris with his lightning attack. Overall in their respective encounters against Fenris Beta undoubtedly displays superiority.

because even significant injuries mean little to Thor. For example in Thor: God of Thunder #8/9, Young Thor, whose arguably weaker then adult Thor, gets pulled to the future after having recently been tortured(like the night after he escapes) for 17 days by Gorr and then gets tortured, beaten, starved, and forced into hard labor some more and yet he then goes on to have a huge fight in Space with Gorr with literally 0 problems. Oh and he shrugs off a country level explosion in the process. Or in The Mighty Thor #1-5, Thor has a massive wound in his side yet it does not slow him down for a second in fighting Silver Surfer. This means that quite simply unless Bill can put down Thor easily(which he can't), Thor is going to be fighting at peak performance after basically every hit. While Bill has some good pain tolerance as well, I don't think the same can be said for him.

Thor does have excellent damage soak to be sure, but I'd argue that Beta can withstand worse injuries and continue fighting for longer. Just consider the amount of punishment he took in the span of a couple of hours (or less) from Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #2 - The Crumbs of Galactus -Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #5 - Omega: The End. First he was submerged in a star beginning to go supernova, he was then engulfed in a multi-planetary blast, was then at the epicenter of a planetary explosion, proceeded to tank unfettered attacks from Stardust, then was struck by a planet-busting bullrush, endured the pull of a black hole, and fought through the continued attacks of a being who was casually busting planets moments earlier, and only after all the combat/conflict was finished did he pass out. Thor may have better pure endurance, but due to his solid endurance and absurd durability Beta has much better overall damage soak.

Finally, I want to talk about Thor's storms which are waay more potent compared to Bill's. Take for instance in Thor vol 5 #11 Thor was flying around upset in the sun and just his angry mood was enough to cause Weather disasters on a planetary scale on Earth. Think about how crazy that is. And in Thor Annual 2001, Thor creates a storm powerful enough to stop a planet busting beam

Thor's storms are undeniably more powerful than Bill's, but as I've already been over he almost never uses him in 1v1 combat, and they are far less direct/concentrated than lightning blasts. And while Thor's storms are superior, Bill's aren't far off:

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Annihilators #2 - Dark Sun Rise

With an incredible massive and potent storm the Horse of Thunder managed to completely eclipse a star, preventing any of it's light from touching the planet. Keep in mind that really only things of comparable magnitude to celestial bodies can do the same.

Conclusion

My thoughts on this battle have remained pretty much the same, and it's a solid win for Beta Ray Bill. He has notable superior striking power that should allow him to drop Thor without having to land very many blows, they're roughly equal in terms of pure strength (maybe Thor has a slight edge, but it's not all that relevant here). Really where Bill pulls ahead of Thor is his durability. Both in terms of energy and blunt force Beta is an absolutely massive tank. It'll take Thor far more attacks to put the Horse of Thunder than it will for Bill to pulverize Thor, and Beta will be landing more hits than Thor anyway due to his palpable speed advantage. Weather manipulation is the only category where Thor holds a meaningful advantage, but even then Beta has superior sheer energy projection.

Overall Bill has all the tools he needs to bring Thor down.

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#32 Posted by blackpantherisb (7602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by darthvaderrocks (2970 posts) - - Show Bio

Amazing post. It's kinda insane how many feats Beta Ray Bill got in that Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill arc.

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#34 Posted by blackpantherisb (7602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Edited by TakenStew22 (5881 posts) - - Show Bio

By the blistering beard of the All-father himself! Beta Ray Bill is strong and durable as hell, while also having some good speed feats of his own. Maybe he is slightly superior to Thor.

Great post. I should really go read the saga of BRB and Godhunter storyline. The action and art looks great.

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#36 Posted by Destinyishere (365 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow umm some interesting arguments here...Gonna have alot to say during voting

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#37 Posted by Amcu (17499 posts) - - Show Bio

Really nice posts so far.

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#38 Posted by skywalker95 (5917 posts) - - Show Bio

Great post.

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#39 Posted by Kevd4wg (14282 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2

I'd like to start by saying that was a nice post. You presented some good arguments and feats, but some things I think were a bit of a stretch and I just don't agree with. Additionally, this post I'm willing to go more or less all out with my showings on Thor so this should be interesting.

Thor's Strength

I doubt that the arm had anything to do with Thor overpowering Bill in that instance. Firstly Beta Ray Bill was heavily holding back and was confused as to why Thor was attacking him, and secondly it was expressly stated in those scans that Thor was in Warrior's Madness, which is well established to be a notable amp, so this really doesn't stand as a valid example of Thor's superior strength.

A couple of things here. Was Bill trying not to hurt Thor? Sure. Would that mean he wouldn't put his full strength to stop Thor from choking/literally killing him? No, that doesn't make any sense.

As for Warrior's Madness being well established notable amp. Afaik Warriors Madness has only been mentioned as an amp once, when it was said to amp a warrior's strength 10 fold. Other then the fact that's likely hyperbole, keep in mind this was a throwaway line in a comic that did not feature Warrior's Madness and also said Thor was trying to summon the Warrior's Madness which makes no sense as it's far more established as the "the sin unpardonable" and when Warrior's Madness was first introduced in Thor #166 Thor was disgusted with himself for using it. It also doesn't make any sense because it had been established as something Thor could only bring on in the heat of battle. Other then this one throwaway line, Warrior's Madness has always just been a bloodlusted Asgardians go into as shown in Thor #166, Giant-Size Avengers #3, and Incredible Hulk #440 where Thor actually went into the Warrior's Madness and didn't show or hint or imply an amp in either.

Basically, the only time Warrior's Madness was made to look like an amp(afaik) was in a comic that only had an off-handed reference to it and in that reference also included a lot of information that didn't line up with what we know about Warrior's Madness, whereas other instances of Warrior's Madness have not shown this amp. And remember overpowering and crushing out Bill like this will only get easier with the Destroyer Arm.

Oh and even if it was an amp, with Morals Off and in a battle against a tough opponent, Thor would probably fall into Warrior's Madness anyway.

Well Fenris had tanked a large lightning bolt from Bill moments before Beta started wailing on him, so the feat seems to be an example of Beta using his lightning to boost his striking power, something he regularly does in combat, rather than just a lightning feat. And as for the example you gave of Thor trying to put Fenris down, that wasn't the fight I was referencing. I was talking about this exchange:

Thor had a broken Mjolnir and only hit him twice and threw him in that instance(and yet was casually throwing him around). So I think it's obvious that more hits from Bill while amped by energy would do a lot more damage to Fenris.

If you're referring to Bill and Thor destroying the Star-Dwarfing portal in Thor #340 - Though Hel Should Bar the Way nowhere does it talk about the power of the Hammers amplifying or nullifying each other, Thor pretty much just says that if the two collide and their power combine the Portal will be destroyed. All it is is a ridiculous outlier for both of them. And I'm not sure what you're talking about with the God Bomb instance, but it really seems like you're grasping at straws with this argument. It to my knowledge it has never been stated or even implied that clashing two Uru Hammers together has any specially properties, I suppose you could potentially make the shaky case that it amplifies the users striking power, but even if it did amp both Thor and Bill's striking, they were still evenly matched, so that point wouldn't even be relevant in this context.

So Thor and Bill's hammers collide and we get a huge outlier with it destroying a star level portal, and then in God of Thunder Thor slams to Mjolnirs into each other and is able to absorb universal energy, also a massive outlier. So despite the fact that basically every time Uru hammers collide something special happens, Uru hammers colliding doesn't mean anything?

I mean I'm a little confused at the logic you're arguing here in the first place, are you arguing that Bill can match the strength to one-shot classic drax? Since Thor was struggling to put down Bill(who can't shrug off an actual Supernova like Drax), why not scale it to that? Or why not scale that strike to Thor struggling to put down Surfer? Why take the exact highest feat Thor gets in that arc and scale it to that instead of say... what was happening in the issue that Bill stalemated him.

Oh come on, the Hammers clearly matched, they just collied side-on instead of head-on, at this point you're argument is just getting silly.

It's not silly, Bill hit Thor's hammer on the side, meaning he did not confront the head on strength of Thor from the front of Mjolnir. This explains why Thor got staggered from this and Bill didn't. Thor actually took Bill's hit, but Bill didn't take Thor's.

It definitely couldn't have been just an asteroid, it had to atleast have been a planetoid. It was covered in dozens of mountains/volcanos, and it was rounded which means that it has be to atleast 600 kilometers in diameter:

Dude... you called my argument bullshit and then used this? Come on, I know you're a better debater then this. This is from literally 7 issues before Thor busts the asteroids and you know what happens in that time? Thor travels through space on his boat and then later joins an entire cosmic event(Infinity Crusade) near Earth. This planetoid has absolutely nothing to do with the Asteroid that Thor busted in Thor #468. Hell just look at when we see Thor bust it and it clearly is not that big

There's literally no evidence to suggest this.

Except the fact that the Destroyer is significantly stronger then Thor, so with the Destroyer arm, he'd be stronger. And the fact that the Uru arm gave him a strength boost against Bill so the even better Destroyer arm would logically give him even more of a strength boost.

Providing enough force to move a planet is undeniably impressive, but it's still a full tier below busting one, which is something that Bill has actually done:

Except it's really not. He only planet busted by literally bullrushing across an entire solar system at MFTL speeds with a giant energy trail of like planet level energy. I think Thor could replicate that, I mean I honestly think his feat against Gorr in Thor: God of Thunder #9 where Thor hits hard enough that the shockwaves of his blows cause massive destruction on the planet below him and even country level damage on a moon orbiting the planet far away. While Thor was going all out, I think that's somewhat countered by the fact that the Necrosword was eating him insides out during this, and it's a great endurance feat to go through this pain and damage and keep fighting with no hint of slowing down. While Thor may have caused less damage with more hits in his scenario, his damage was caused by only shockwaves, so just a small part of feed off of the energy he was supplying into Gorr's body. If he hits Bill with that power, I don't think it'll go well for Bill... at all.

With a single bullrush Beta Ray Bill slams Stardust into a planet hard enough to destroy it, this is obviously more impressive than Thor's planet moving feat. And Beta consistently replicates this level of striking power. Hell, in he same issue only a couple of pages later he completely obliterates Stardust with a lightning-amped strike:

The problem with this is that it's not like this was a fresh Stardust. In fact, in this scenario Stardust had just

  1. Taken Bill channeling planetary+ energy through her
  2. Bullrushing her across a solar system into a planet and blowing it up while sticking her staff inside her so she was leaking energy
  3. Then he directly pounded into that staff already in her body with his most powerful hit and she dissipated. Keep in mind this was after she was leaking energy and already on the ground seemingly incapacitated/out of the fight.

So no it's not like this was a planet busting hit on Stardust from Bill or anything. And it even looked like the events prior combined with the hit on Stardust briefly Koed Bill as well and he was literally just taking the shockwaves/feed off of things that hit Stardust directly.

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and in the next issue shrugged off being at the core of a planet during its explosion (Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #4 - Asteroth)

Important note with this. Stardust had formed into a completely different body that was literally no-selling Bill's hits

I'm fairly confident that both of these feats are above anything that Thor has ever done.

On that I have to disagree.

I'd actually say that Bill will be able to put Thor down without exerting himself too much. I've already demonstrated that he can bust planets with single blows and obliterate beings more durable than Thor with his hits,

The planet was busted only with a not particularly combat applicable bullrush and Stardust had already been beaten badly when she was destroyed. Neither of those really apply. And even if they do, strong hits are not enough to take out Thor. Take for instance Uncanny Avengers #11 where Death Seed Sentry bullrushes Thor across a Galaxy in seconds, slams him into a planet, chokes him out(keep in mind this dude lifted a celestial as big/bigger then a planet) and hits him square in the face with a punch that shakes the planet, yet Thor shrugs it off and comes back for more with no real sign of damage. There was seemingly no pain tolerance involved in that situation either so it's just his raw durability.

but I haven't even gotten to his best feat. Beta was actually able to KO Pre-Annihilation Surfer in only two whopping blows:

So let's talk about this feat. Firstly, I think it's a little inconsistent. While Surfer officially got an amp from Annihilation, it seemed to really be in name only(other then in Annihilation). He didn't stomp people he struggled with before and just kinda seemed to be the same power level. Now of course the reason that you would make this distinction is because Post-Annihilation Surfer shrugged off 2 hits from a more bloodlusted Bill and then beat the shit out of him in Beta Ray Bill: Godhunter #2. Personally, I don't think the gap between Pre and Post-Annihilation Surfer is anywhere remotely close to that big(if it exists at all), I think it's just a plain inconsistency(Which I mean, Bill's got some inconsistency with his striking like struggling to put down Rulk and Namor , which I think are low ends, but cancel out his highest ends like 2 shotting Surfer). Plus if you really want to scale with Surfer, Thor's physically stalemated a serious post-annihilation Surfer in The Mighty Thor #5, you know the version who stomped Bill.

Really, I just don't think Bill has what it takes to easily put down Thor. Especially since Thor's pain tolerance/endurance is so off the charts that if you can't put him down in like 3 hits, it's gonna take you like 10. I mentioned Thor's fight with Gorr and Surfer last post, but to just absolutely hammer this in I want to mention Uncanny Avengers #16/17 where Thor stuck his arm in some crazy hot place and it came out looking like this. Thor never once suffered in pain from this, was ready to fight with it in the next issue, and even shrugged off the earth exploding(he was a lot closer then the Moon which got mostly destroyed by it) in the process. All without slowing down in a fight.

Bill's Durability

Once again this really is just grasping at straws. He was pretty stupid, but if you're smart enough to throw a punch you're smart enough to brace for one. And it was never referenced or stated that Drax's brain damage made it harder for him to endure punches to the head, that's just your convenient head-canon. Hell, its not even like Drax's feats got significantly worse after that, he was still a solid herald tier.

They kinda did get significantly worse. Only other feat I can think of Post-Ressurection that's on the level of Pre-Ressurection was in Silver Surfer #98 where he one-shot amped Champion, but otherwise for the most part he was tangling with people like Thor and Hulk(weaker version). And you know, it's pretty hard to brace when you're not on the ground(Thor's taken out Bill that way in Thor #472), once Drax was on the ground Thor noticeably did not one-shot him, hell even once he had the Power Gem(For voters that don't know this was a huuuuge amp that allowed him to even stand up to Thanos) , Drax shrugged off a hit right to the face from him(Thor #470).

Right, and my point was that he traded and tanked planet-busting blows. And you're saying that doesn't make sense because the planetary explosion weakened him? What? If anything it proves my point, Drax tanked the hits that destroyed the planet, but ultimately the explosion of the planet weakened him. That's essentially agreeing with my argument, I never said that Drax tanked the Planet exploding in that instance.

How does it help your argument if Drax got Koed/Weakened(we see him Koed) by the Planet Exploding, which would do less damage then the actual planet busting hits?

Right, but mostly I was using the feat in a durability context, and being really mad doesn't increase an individuals durability. Also it's not at all like Thor under WM, since WM grants Thor and explicit amp, making it different than when other comic characters are bloodlusted.

But a Madness like that would certainly amp pain tolerance. We have no idea how much pain Drax felt from that or how much damage he took, just that he took it and kept moving.

He really didn't stagger DSS though, just made him scream in pain.

Huh? DSS was moving, lightning made him scream out in pain and stop moving till Thor smacked him with a bullrush. That's like a super clear example of staggering.

Also while lightning is unpredictable Bill's speed is fairly incredible, but I'll get into that more in the speed section. And Bill has actually tanked a similar bolt of lightning from Blood and Thunder Thor after already receiving a massive beating:

Your link doesn't go anywhere, but I'd also like to point out that during Blood and Thunder, specifically Silver Surfer vol 3 #86, Thor also easily Koed Bill with lightning to the point where he went from Standing but injured to Koed and Sif had to take him to a "place of healing" and Bill only wakes up 4 issues later in the story. Not great evidence to say he could shrug off lightning bolts

Also a sidenote, it seems you are really heavily relying on Blood and Thunder Thor scaling(which we all know how weird that arc could be scaling wise), but Thor also absolutely stomped Bill every time they fought in Blood and Thunder, even at the start of his madness he shrugged off Bill's best hits and beat the shit out of him. Like you're referencing Thor #461 as a durability feat, but in that issue Thor casually beat the absolute shit out of Bill while shrugging off his hits and we don't see him until a different comic where we see him wimpering after an undisclosed period of time and I'm supposed to think that's a good durability feat? There's literally 0 reason to think when we see in Surfer's comic it's immediately after Thor hit him and not like hours, a day, or even a week later and he's been Koed this whole time. Like as soon as Thor hits Bill with a casual lightning Bolt, Bill only whimpers once, and otherwise doesn't make a single sound the whole comic. He was beat up really bad.

gets smacked seemingly into another solar system

There's literally 0 evidence to support this. The most we get from the place he lands is "Deep Space" which he and Thor fought in Deep Space and "elsewhere", so you are literally arguing Thor hit him into a different solar system off the world elsewhere. Thor could've hit him not even a planet away.

and yet when he is next seen he is standing an fully conscious.

And yet we have literally no idea when this takes place compared to his fight with Thor. He even seems to be standing up like after getting Koed. It could be hours after, or days after.

Given that WM Thor in Blood and Thunder was operating well above base Thor's levels it's safe to assume that Bill will be able to tank multiple lightning bolts from him without being put down.

This was at the very start of B&T Thor's madness(he literally got it the issue before), it got worse as time went on(Like he couldn't put down Drax in Infinity Crusade, but then could in B&T or how he casually put down Bill with lightning later on), so I don't think this Thor was much above normal Thor in this instance honestly and his lightning still immobilized and clearly hurt Bill and allowed Thor to land an incredibly clean hit on the top of his head.

Firstly, Thor charged his lightning bolt for many seconds before unleashing it on Amadeus, a luxury he certainly won't have in this fight, secondly Thor as actually tanked large-scale lightning blasts from himself in the past:

He was having a conversation with Amadeus. Thor doesn't really charge up his lightning bolts, so I'm a little confused by this.

So it's certainly not as though his lighting casually or consistently operates on the level where it can one-shot it's master.

Even in the instance you posted his lightning knocked him on his ass and he struggled to get up for a second. If Bill does that in this battle, that's all Thor needs to land a solid hit on the top of his head like he did in Thor #461 as I posted above and weaken Bill a lot for the rest of the fight, if not just straight up take him out.

And thirdly Bill's energy durability is well above Thor's. He can literally no-sell being at ground-zero of planetary explosions:

Yeah I don't think it is. With as small as Bill's body is, he's taking only a very, very small percentage of the actual planetary explosion. A feat like this is probably country level, which Young Thor has no-sold, and not at all close to Planetary.

This alone I believe is enough to put Bill notably above Thor in terms of energy durability

Nah. Not at all. So remember I've talked about Young Thor and how after taking torture, beatings, and enslavement, he still ignored a country level blast and fought Gorr for an issue. Well in Thor: God of Thunder #11, After being brutally beaten and fighting for quite a long period of Time, Thor goes within the Moon Sized God Bomb and while he's at point blank range Gorr blows it up. Even after all this damage, Thor shrugs off the physical explosion of the god bomb(there was a lot of weird psychic shit coming with it too that was messing up Thor). So Thor is basically at point blank range when a bomb the size of a moon explodes(Think about a Nuke literally the size of a moon) and even much farther away it can one-shot characters who no-sell country level attacks(like ill being the planet when it exploded). That's well above any energy damage output you've posted for Bill so far, and above any durability feat you've posted for him as well.

This alone I believe is enough to put Bill notably above Thor in terms of energy durability, seeing as Beta was seemingly completely unharmed/unaffected by the explosion, but Bill has been at the epicenter of massive blasts that dwarf planets:

Here's the problem. It wasn't exactly an explosion, it was the feed off of that amount of energy that Bill channeled directly through Stardust(that's immediately before BPIB's scan). So Stardust was absolutely taking that level of damage, hence how Bill was able to take her form out later that you said was a standalone feat before, but Bill? Bill was right behind that blast, probably the best place to avoid the brunt of the damage, and he wasn't taking the focal point of that explosion either, he was just taking the energy leaking off what he put into Stardust/the Tornado. Basically while Bill may have been in the range, Stardust was the one tanking all the potency.

and we've already seen Beta tank lightning bolts from a more powerful Thor than the version being used here

I have a problem with this. For one, he didn't tank the lightning blast, secondly it was one lightning blast, thirdly later Thor easily took him out with a lightning blast. But most importantly, lightning became a lot more important to Thor's power set post-Ragnarok. Instead of just using blasts from his hammer like he casually did before, Thor used more lightning. Like how he did this to Void in Siege #4is way above how his lightning acts for the most part pre-Ragnarok and would absolutely one-shot Bill considering he left Void as a skeleton.

Thanos was referring explicitly to Surfer since he considers Norrin to be a valuable asset. This is not applicable to Bill. In fact, when he was giving Beta a beat down he explicitly said that even if Bill had asked for mercy he wouldn't have granted it.

On this I strongly disagree. Notice how Warlock says "In your present state I feared you might needlessly kill Galactus's herald" to which Thanos(eventually) responds "you mistake the desire for a little exercise with unbridled rage," clearly referencing the present state thing of his fight with the Annihilators. And again, if Thanos was bloodlusted he wouldn't mock and lecture Bill like he did.

Also I explicitly stated that I wasn't saying that Bill is superior to Surfer, but rather giving a reference of how powerful Thanos' attacks are.

So what should I take from this then? If you're going to post a feat and then say, this doesn't scale, how should I interpret the feat?

Okay here's the thing, Thor's storms are undoubtedly powerful, but he really almost never ever uses them when fighting a singular foe, sure he uses lightning in the majority of the fights he's in, but storms? Almost never. I'll cite several of his most notable fights, from both the classic and modern era, to prove my point. Here's a list of some of his most famous and significant fights that he didn't use storms offensively in: His fight with Hercules in Journey into Mystery Annual #1, his fight with Hulk in The Defenders #10 - Breakthrough!, his first ever fight with the destroyer in Thor Annual #2 - If Asgard Falls..., his clash with Kurse in Thor #363 - This Kursed Earth...!, his legendary fight against Surter in Thor #353 - Doom II, the epic battle between him and Perrikus in Thor #10 - The Dark Wars, Part One, his multi-issue duel with Mangog and a Thanosii Thor #24 - Tears For the Fallen & Thor #25 - The Final Morning, his clash with Nul and Angrir in Fear Itself #5 - Brawl, the fight between him and Surfer inThe Mighty Thor #4 - The Galactus Seed 4: To Dual Against Galactus, his encounter with Death Seed Sentry in Uncanny Avengers #10 & Uncanny Avengers #11, and arguably his most famous battle (on CV atleast) Thor: God of Thunder #9 - Godbomb: Part Three of Five - Thunder in the Blood.

For a character like Thor even listing this many fights, simply isn't a lot. There are a few good anti feats in here, but a lot of them are either

  1. Indoors(Perrikus)
  2. In Space(Gorr, Galactus, Surfer)
  3. Not in a great place physically(Nul/Angrir)
  4. There'd be no point in doing it(Mangog/Thanos, Surtur)

There are a few good ones here, but that's really not a lot. But for example you mentioned the Destroyer. Thor has used storms against the Destroyer in Thor vol 2 #1, but of course the Destroyer was way too strong. And just from a logical perspective, Thor can't unleash storms all the time because he doesn't want to damage where he's at. Plus, Thor doesn't even need to summon them consciously, just a bad mood can cause storms all across the Earth while he's in the sun(Thor vol 5 #11), and Thor didn't even notice it. So now he's morals off(no worry of hurting people) and pissed off at one opponent, a powerful storm is extremely likely to form.

The fact of the matter is that Thor almost never uses offensive storms against singular targets when engaged in direct battle. He uses lighting consistently, but really most of the time he just straight up brawls, and while he'll throw in a lightning attack here and there, he mostly uses them to supplement his CQC. There's plenty of other examples that reinforce my point, but I think you get it.

Thor's been using his lightning more and more lately. I think you're really underrating how much he'll use it by saying "he'll throw in a lightning attack here and there." Like look at the Void fight in Siege, he overwhelmingly used lightning, but most commonly he combines it with his CQC to pull off devastating combos, like he did against Bill. He hits them with a bolt of lighting to stagger/stun and do some damage and then while they're injured he follows up with incredible hits. He's done this against Bill, DSS, and tried to do it with Thanos, but he obviously shrugged off the lightning.

Okay, a couple of things. Firstly Thor is not going to be able to straight up bull-rush Bill since Beta has reacted to and stopped bull-rushes from faster and more powerful characters, such as Silver Surfer:

He reacted to this bullrush while moving at FTL speeds away from Surfer, from the relative perspective there's no reason to think that Surfer was going all that fast. Hell we even see in the comic, Surfer was only slowly gaining on Bill's ship. Plus, as Thor commonly does, he'd hit Bill with lightning so that he'd be staggered and therefore can't react to the bullrush.

So it's doubtful that Thor will be able to land a clean bull-rush unless he manages to stagger Thor beforehand. Also one-shotting that version Ulik is thoroughly unimpressive considering the fact that Iron Man did that same with singular repulsor blasts multiple times in the same series:

I'm going to assume that you're just not aware Ulik was shown to be fine quickly after both of those blasts and not that you were purposely committing context. Now, re-reading it does look like Ulik wasn't in great shape when Thor koed him, so it's probably not the best example

Fortunately he has better feats, for example in The Mighty Thor #5where he does massive damage to Galactus with a bullrush. Now it's commonly overestimated on the vine how much damage it actually takes to damage Galactus's armor on the vine, but a quick comparison to Bill's hit on Galactus in Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1, we can see that with a bullrush, Thor did a lot more.

Yeah, but Bill really won't be stunned by a bull-rush of that caliber at all, and he certainly won't be quick to fall to Thor's blows given that the best striking feat you've displayed so far is Thor providing enough energy with a strike to move a planet, which is impressive, but as I have already talked about, it simply isn't on the same level as actually busting a planet, and Bill has actually been slammed by a planet-busting bull-rush and brushed it off:

Bill seemed to be briefly koed as shown in the first panel of the scan you posted

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If Bill ever does that in this fight, he's done. As Thor won't give him the chance to recover from a hit. Building momentum like I'm mentioning is a tactic Thor has used before to fight durable opponents(as I'm sure you remember from our last CaV). Take for instance Thor vol 2 #35 where Thor goes ham on Gladiator and starts beating the shit out of him. The point being that Thor hits incredibly hard when he's not holding back, and even if Bill was as durable as you seem to think(I don't think he really is, even if I think he has a small advantage on Thor in this area), he'd still get staggered by Thor's hits, and Thor's going to use that momentary pause on Bill's part after every hit from Thor to just keep hitting him, until he goes down.

Or for another example of combining powers, against the far more powerful Death Seed Sentry in Uncanny Avengers #11, Thor surprises him with a mjolnir throw, hits him with lightning to set him up, and bullrushes him into the planet. DSS had insane durability so he shrugged it off, but on Bill that's going to do a ton of damage

Unfortunately, I doubt that kind of strategy would work on Thor given Thor's incredible pain tolerance.

And keep in mind that this was after Bill had already tanked an onslaught of other attacks from Stardust at this point. Thor will have an exceedingly difficult time putting Bill down with his strikes.

Assuming just hammer strikes: Difficult maybe, extremely difficult. Eh... I mean, Thor's already put Bill down with his fists before(which is equally as valid as B&T), and we all know how big an amp he gets with Mjolnir, especially since he can now use lightning. Plus I think Thor will have a lot less difficulty putting Bill down with lightning, which has operated near this level. For example in Astonishing Thor #3 having sex with another Storm Goddess almost causes the Earth to be destroyed so they stopped and while it was a shared feat, it was also on accident, so Thor can probably do something close with concentrated power.

Beta was still able to fight despite the fact that Asteroth was channeling her energy directly into him. And keep in mind that Asteroth in the same issue was shown casually manipulating the gravity of a black hole, and in the previous issue was seemingly flaying multiple planets with minimal effort:

We learn later in Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #5 that while she was channeling directly into Stardust, she was actually channeling into the Orb that Bill has. You can even see this pretty clearly with the purple lines on Stardust, but not on Bill. When Asteroth actually attacked Bill he was easily Koed and Stardust had to wake him up

Obviously being able to endure attacks from a being of this caliber is fairly insane, and I maintain that Thor will struggle to inflict heavy damage on Bill even with his lightning attacks. Frankly, Bill is just a massive brick.

Yeah I disagree. Between Thor's ability to build momentum and his quite frankly absolutely insane damage output, Thor can put down Bill with some trouble, but not a lot. Thor's lightning has been shown to work on their level before and combined with his striking, I just can't see Bill lasting long.

Speed

I mean I literally showed a feat of him using his superior speed to outmaneuver an amped Thor during the Blood and Thunder arc in my previous post. And keep in mind that Bill essentially beat Thor right then and there using his superior speed/mobility, and only ended up getting defeated because he was holding back. Hell he's actually done that on multiple occasions:

No he hasn't. Neither of those occasions involve Bill using any significant speed advantage on Thor. The first feat was literally just Bill taking advantage of Thor being staggered and hitting Thor repeatedly, something I've argued Thor could(and would) do here. Was some speed involved here? Sure, but the problem is, B&T wasn't as smart as normal Thor, normal Thor could literally just call down lightning and stop that before it starts.

As for the second example, it's literally just Bill hitting Thor 3 times, by your logic Thor abused his speed against Bill later in the fight by dodging his hits and repeatedly beating him without Bill doing anything. Hell, Thor got to the opposite side of the planet they were fighting on and hit him before Bill reacted

which is the only reason why Thor manages to regain the upper hand is that Bill was holding back. A pretty clear-cut showing of how Bill can and will use his speed to gain an advantage on Thor in this fight.

However I don't think that it's a fair showing to say what will happen in this fight. A large part of dealing with speed is battle intelligence, which Thor completely lacked in B&T. Your counter to this was

Yeah, but this really isn't true at all, Blood and Thunder Thor wasn't fighting stupid at all, and over the course of only a few issues he used pretty much all of the powers he has available to him in combat:

but using powers is not at all Battle intelligence. For a reference of actual intelligence look at Thor #488 where Thor is getting choked out by Kurse, someone whose constantly shown as a physical superior to Thor. Thor goes from being chocked out by Kurse, to being in an extremely advantageous position in just 3 panels by fighting smart. This is the kind of Thing Thor very much didn't show in B&T(and doing stuff like literally charging into Bill's attack in the fight you posted), and Bill could use to get into these advantageous position. Like you mentioned Thor using lightning, sure he did, but he wasn't smart enough to use lightning when Bill was pounding on him and it would've easily stopped him like he did on Gorr in Thor: God of Thunder #2. Feat Wise, that attack from Young Thor without mjonlir, one-shot Gorr, who at that point in time was probably around Thor/Bill's level.

One, Two, Three, & Four: In the span of a single battle Thor uses a ground-pound AoE attack, a hammer throw, and calls down lighting on his opponent. (The Mighty Thor #461 - Friends And Lovers)

This is the only time it's remotely arguable Thor fought smart, and he absolutely dominated Bill in this fight at the very start of his madness. And we know that he grew throughout his madness as in Infinity War(later in his madness then this), he was stated as unable to put down Drax the Destroyer in Warlock and the Infinity Watch #21, yet in Blood and Thunder where the same writer was heavily involved Drax later got one-shot. So it seemed the more powerful he got, the dumber he got.

The other instances were literally, he reacted to something, he hit surfer, and he used lightning. Which like, is maybe not even Save Hulk intelligence.

As you can see Thor abused his strength, speed (which was noted to be superior to base Thor's), and energy projection/manipulation consistently during the Blood and Thunder arc, so claiming that he was fighting stupid is just silliness, if anything he was using more of his abilities than he does in character, and his only major fighting style change was that he was significantly more powerful/better (in every category) and vastly more brutal. The examples of Bill outmaneuvering him are perfectly valid and applicable in this fight.

Savage Hulk uses Thunderclaps and Groundpounds, but that doesn't make him as smart as Green Scar. The same thing applies with Thor and B&T Thor. Also Thor didn't really use his speed against Warlock, Warlock was dancing around him, and then Thor eventually reacted to him.

If these are perfectly valid, then we must take into account there other fights where Bill comes across as vastly less impressive. Such as their first fight where Thor koed Bill with his fists(and Bill Thor, but at the same time), Thor didn't use lightning, and Bill seemingly had 0 speed advantage on Thor. Or in the instance I showed from Thor #472 where Bill jumps at Thor and Thor easily smacks him away and down. Thor #472 shows that as soon as Thor leaves his madness, he easily dispatches Bill by using the intelligence he lacked in B&T.

I'm fairly confident that Beta will use it in some capacity here, especially since he has abused it against more opponents that just Thor, look at this example of him outright speed-blitzing Stardust:

And he's never done anything like this before or since. So...

And Bill could certainly speed-blitz Thor given that Beta has operated and moved so fast that what was a milli-second in actual time felt like hours to him:

I gotta be honest, I thought there's no way when you calc it, it's actually that fast, but it really is. Which is unfortunate because it just went from a nice speed feat I had for Surfer, Bill, and Quasar to a massive outlier for all of them because none of them ever show that level of speed consistently. Like Pico-Second speed is flash tier, and Bill's never shown anything near that level again. This would be comparable to the Microsecond feat for Thor in terms of consistency imo

and essentially all Thor is doing there is locking himself and High Evolutionary in close quarters, so if anything that'll be an advantage for Bill

So Bill will more easily maneuver around a character, if there is less ability to maneuver. That makes literally 0 sense. The Tornado isn't just CQC, it's very limiting.

While being literally pulled in by a massive black hole that was pulling in planetary debris Bill is still able to resist it's pull and engage in combat. Quite frankly if Beta can fight while resisting pressure/pull like this I doubt that Thor's tornado will be able to limit his maneuverability much.

He was being held in place by Asteroth who was no-selling his blows. I mean, I guess you could argue this, but this is a really weird feat and I don't really know what you should take from it. At the absolute worst the Tornado is gonna slow him down and allow Thor to hit him and start rolling momentum.

Yeah, Bill will probably struggle to block lightnings that Thor summons down from the skies, but Thor's go to mode of energy projection is just to blast lightning directly out of his hammer,

Thor hasn't done that regularly since before 2005. He overwhelmingly uses sky lightning now. I mean the only major lightning from hammer instance I can think of in like the last 10 years was him embarrassing Kang with it in Avengers vol 4 #1 which honestly is a pretty good feat considering Kang's shields have held up to Thor's Mjolnir strikes pretty well multiple times in the past.

Overall Beta's speed is a very useful asset that can allow him to defend against Thor's attacks as well as overwhelm Thor in CQC, it has proven to be effective against Thor in the past, and it is yet another solid advantage that Bill has in this battle.

If I'm being honest I think Speed is his only really relevant advantage(I do think he has an edge in durability as I've mentioned before), but I don't think he uses it enough or well enough to take out Thor. Especially since big lightning blasts are a really good counter to Bill maneuvering around Thor

Lightning

As you can see Fenris was hit by Thor's lightning and wasn't slowed down by it, the Thunder God ultimately Captain America needed to intervene. And keep in mind that it was explicitly noted that the Fenris that Beta obliterated was more powerful than the Fenris that appeared in this issue.

I really think this is just extremely flimsy evidence to say Bill's lightning hits harder then Thor's. Even ignoring that both Bill and Thor did the same thing to Fenris(stagger him, Bill just also bullrushed on top of him to knock him down, and Fenris was up immediately as seen in the next issue), Thor was using a broken mjolnir, straight up a broken conduit for his lightning.

Meanwhile, Thor also has a long history of having much better feats with his lightning then Bill. For example in the same issue, Thor says he relies too much on mjolnir and takes out Durok with lightning. Now this does hurt Thor as well, but Durok is more powerful then Thor and has fought Surfer so it's still an incredibly powerful feat.

Yeah, but it really wouldn't, the bolt was long as hell sure, but we saw that it was only slightly wider than people and had a roughly equal width to a tree trunk. So it's fairly doubtful that it's overall AoE would be anywhere near planet level. Just to give an example the human small intestine is over 26 feet in length, yet due to it's insignificant width it occupies only a small space inside the human body. Overall Beta tanking a blast that obliterated the surface of a planet is far more quantifiably impressive.

Really dude? It almost seems like you purposely didn't include the next panel where we can clearly see it make a noticeable AoE on the ship

No Caption Provided

Once again that ship is the size of a solar system albeit a small one. An AoE like at the base of that lighting would easily be planetary in size.

So you're essentially saying that Thor's lightning is more potent than his hammer strikes? To me it seemed like Thor hit Sentry with his hammer and amped it with his lightning in both instances (though first instance was off-panel).

Yes absolutely(Though probably only out of the sky, his hammer lightning doesn't seem as good). Particularly since his Ressurection post-ragnarok we've seen his lightning become substantially more powerful and do more damage. And the first time the damage was clearly mainly through the hammer, and I have no idea where you got the second time at all involving a hammer strike, in the second panel you can clearly see Void hit with the lightning and have it ripped open. And as I mentioned, he later reduced Robert to a skeleton when he was void as well.

Versatility

Here Beta and Stardust clash, matching each other in raw energy projection for an extended period of time until Bill eventually overpowered Stardust, with the force of his blast creating an explosion that utterly dwarfed the surrounding planets.

That's not what happened at all. You can clearly see Bill manipulating the energy that Stardust had created over a long period of time, which caused that explosion. Bill was blocking Stardusts blast(we don't see energy coming out of Bill's hammer) and then manipulates all the energy around them back into Stardust causing the explosion. This is a non feat for Bill's energy output.

While Thor's storms can reach this level of power they are not nearly as concentrated as Beta's blast, and he very rarely uses his storms in combat. In terms of sheer energy projection power Bill holds a distinct edge over Thor.

Absolutely not, in no shape or form is that true. The only evidence supporting this is some incredibly sketchy scaling from Fenris and if we interpret the feat above as Bill supplying all the energy despite the fact that he was already manipulating a huge amount of energy that's present.

The power of Thor's lightning isn't affected by Mjolnir, but rather, as you said yourself, Mjolnir helps to control Thor's lighting.

So if Mjolnir is broken, clearly Thor's not going to be able to conduct lightning through it as well...

And Thor was directly channeling his lighting into Fenris, so Mjolnir being broken really shouldn't matter.

To me it seems like he channeled it through Mjolnir, I don't even really see what you're saying here.

So essentially Bill did more damage to a stronger version of Fenris with his lightning attack than Thor did to a weaker version of Fenris with his lightning attack. Overall in their respective encounters against Fenris Beta undoubtedly displays superiority.

Thor, with a broken mjolnir staggered Fenris. Bill with a working Stormbreaker staggered an unquantifiably stronger Fenris and did it while Fenris was not aware of his presence.

I have no idea how the conclusion is that Bill was obviously superior.

Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #2 - The Crumbs of Galactus -Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #5 - Omega: The End. First he was submerged in a star beginning to go supernova,

Which wasn't actually exploding yet and it didn't seem to actually damage Bill(it's a heat resistance feat) so it's not relevant to pain tolerance

he was then engulfed in a multi-planetary blast

As I've gone over, that's not really true

, was then at the epicenter of a planetary explosion

Which briefly koed him after he hit Stardust

, proceeded to tank unfettered attacks from Stardust

Did he now? Because I went back and check, and the only time I could ever find a serious Stardust actually landing hits on Bill(Not distracted/blocked) was this. Just Stardust's energy for a few seconds and he was keeled over in pain. Also worth mentioning he got koed very soon after this by Asteroth

, then was struck by a planet-busting bullrush,

And was seemingly Koed even breifly

endured the pull of a black hole

How impressive is that?

, and fought through the continued attacks of a being who was casually busting planets moments earlier

Who was focused on draining into his Orb

, and only after all the combat/conflict was finished did he pass out.

That's not true. He was passed out in the Supernova, then he passed out again after planet busting, then passed out After Asteroth hit him once, then passed out again when he got planet busted on. I'm assuming you weren't counting the Supernova one because it's at the start, but he clearly wasn't conscious the whole time(even if some of those were brief) so it's really not this great pain tolerance feat.

Thor may have better pure endurance, but due to his solid endurance and absurd durability Beta has much better overall damage soak.

I disagree completely. You want to look at insane tolerance, an inferior Asgardian to Thor(Hemidal) got shot through the heart in Captain Marvel vol 5 #7and just sat back up. Now imagine what Thor can do. Once again, even if Bill has a small edge in pure durability, it doesn't matter because Thor could take twice or three times the damage Bill does from something, and act at peak power, while Bill gets weaker.

With an incredible massive and potent storm the Horse of Thunder managed to completely eclipse a star, preventing any of it's light from touching the planet. Keep in mind that really only things of comparable magnitude to celestial bodies can do the same.

Re-reading it, they were just trying to cut off power to the city where they were fighting their enemies. It says nothing about cutting off the supply to the entire planet, and even if it did that's just range not potency. The moon is a lot smaller then the Earth and a lot smaller then the Sun but can do the same thing easily.

Conclusion

With the exception of Speed and Durability, Thor's still better in every way. Bill's speed advantage is easily mitigated by Thor's intelligence, lightning, and the fact that well, Bill just doesn't use his speed all that well. He's no Superman. Furthermore, Thor's packing extremely potent lightning, enough to cause major problems for Bill and put him down in just a few hits. If Bill gets close, Thor can take his hits as well and certainly damage him with Mjolnir strikes, as we've seen Thor put Bill down before with his fists.

Basically Bill's got

  • Speed - Not that he uses it great
  • Maybe Durability

Thor's got

  • Maybe Striking
  • Way better lightning/energy
  • Way better Storms
  • Seemingly Smarter
  • The Destroyer arm - a whole arm where taking damage doesn't matter and it amps his strength
  • Incredible Pain Tolerance and therefore better damage soak
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#40 Posted by Kevd4wg (14282 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by darthvaderrocks (2970 posts) - - Show Bio

Very solid counter counter

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#42 Posted by TakenStew22 (5881 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice counter. Maybe Thor does have a few tricks up his sleeve.

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#43 Posted by Rac95 (5926 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm learning a lot about both characters here, nice posts

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#44 Posted by skywalker95 (5917 posts) - - Show Bio

Great counter.

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#45 Posted by Underfire47 (274 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V there are many inaccuracies that need to be pointed out on both sides.