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#1 Edited by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

Savage Hulk (represented by Thedailybagel)

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New 52 Superman (represented by lowlaville)

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Conditions

- Hulk is bloodlusted

- Morals off for Superman

- KO or incapacitation for the win

Location

No Caption Provided

Settings

Mxy decides to have some fun. He hops over to Marvel and removes all the Asgardians from the plane of existence, then have Hulk and Superman teleported over there and forcibly made to fight against each other. "One of you will win or I will destroy the entire omniverse!" Mxy said, laughing.

They had no choice but to give the fight there all.

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#2 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel It's done mate. You can start if you want, And may the best debater win!

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#3 Edited by Kingant27 (16895 posts) - - Show Bio

I would have done this CAV if I had the time, but oh well; I would like to see how @lowlaville presents New-52 Superman, and how @Thedailybagel can get around the speed advantage.

Tag me for voting please.

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#4 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingant27: No problem. This is my first time debating for Superman in a CAV so looking forward to it!

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#5 Posted by Cregan_Stark (5153 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for voting

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#6 Posted by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh so this is the additional CAV you were talking about? Much more interesting than the other one, tag me for votes please.

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#7 Posted by Kingant27 (16895 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville: It would have been mine as well, but I didn't have the time or it couldn't allow me to upload pics.

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#8 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: will do, man I should have thought about the speed gap...

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#9 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville: would you mind opening? I've got to finish off my post in my other CaV.

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#10 Posted by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: I'll be interested to see what you come up with for the speed argument.

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#11 Edited by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel said:

@lowlaville: would you mind opening? I've got to finish off my post in my other CaV.

Not at all. I guess I'll proceed with the Intro. My intro's are usually brief.

New 52 Superman
New 52 Superman

Name: Kal-El (Clark Kent) aka Superman
Race: Kryptonion

Strength

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- Break Green Lantern constructs with ease.

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- Benchpressing the weight of Earth

Speed

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- Tagged Flash

Durability

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- Took an Omega Beam to the back and survived in one piece.

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- Even Superman's brain tissue is invulnurable.

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#12 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville take your time, I just finished my first post on the other CaV so itll give me some time to finish grabbing scans.

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#13 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I'll probably think of something, hopefully.

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#14 Edited by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by BlueBeetle1 (1331 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy, this going to be a massive stomp. Tag me for voting.

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#16 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by those_eyes (17291 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy, this going to be a massive stomp. Tag me for voting.

ill show you a massive stomp!

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#18 Edited by Easternwind (4590 posts) - - Show Bio
@bluebeetle1 said:

Oh boy, this going to be a massive stomp. Tag me for voting.

I know, Hulk has infinate str d00d!

*trollface*

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#19 Edited by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville: sure thing, sorry I couldn't do it last night, my other CaV took a turn for the worst.

Nice intro by the way.

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#20 Edited by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville: sure thing, sorry I couldn't do it last night, my other CaV took a turn for the worst.

Nice intro by the way.

Don't worry. Waiting for you.

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#21 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville: yup I'm on it now, I was kind of busy this morning but it should be up in no time.

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#22 Posted by BlueBeetle1 (1331 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Edited by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

Introduction

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As im sure your all aware I will be using savage hulk for this CaV, I don't feel there's any need for introductions so im going to get right into hulks strengths.

Strength

This right here is hulks bread and butter but honestly I dont feel its his most important advatage, nonetheless he is sufficiently stronger than superman and heres why:

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Hulk holds the weight of a star on his back (I will elaborate on this later).

"Feel that beast? Thats the weight of a star on your back."

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Hulk draws blood and has an extended fight with hyperion, the same one which survived the collapse of two universes.

Uses his strength to hold to help power dooms machine which held off exitar:

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I figured you'd disagree a little with this one so I took the liberty of placing an extract I took from acidskull and ghostravages context files: hulk thread down below:

A lot of recent feats have tons of controversy surrounding them, but I'm not even sure why this one was questioned, considering that the contents of the issue are pretty much pointed out, but even some hulk fans seemed to think that this was a bit off. Well I'm here to tell you that this feat is just valid as the writer wanted it to be. Look as always, I'll just fast forward to the good stuff. What you need to know that earth is under attack, and they need to hold of a gigantic being called exitar, who's roughly about the same size as the earth itself. But creating a shield strong enough to hold this beast off is tricky, because you need a power source that can actually do the job. So who do they choose? That's right, Hulk.

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Despite being under incredible amount of pain, hulk holds him off for a good long while, but the problem, as I understand, that people seem to have with the scene is that the plan eventually fails, which, reasonably enough, results in the belief that it was Hulks fault( Yeah blame the monster, real mature guys). But the problem with that idea is that THE WRITER as well as the artist show that the reason the shield didn't work wasn't because of Hulk, it was the device itself. I mean, if we even observe how the whole thing went down, doom, Stark, and vision could have given a hand, but they didn't because they obviously believed that that it wouldn't have made a significant difference

. Remender makes it pretty much clear that it was the device that exploded, so the plan going south had NOTHING to do with hulk, I mean, take a look:

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It's pretty much directly shown to you. Hulks power was harnessed to create this massive shield, and he held his end of the bargain, but unfortunately, the device could not hold, so their defenses were ruined. Hell, Vision comments on hulk is doingwonderfully and the next panel shows iron man telling us that they have a fracture,how much clearer can it get?

I think I've made my point.

~TheAcidSkull

I believe this is sufficient evidence but please just ask if you would like more.

Durability

This, in my opinion is hulks ticket to victory. Recently his durability has reached ridiculous levels and that combined with his healing factor should balance out supermans speed advantage (which I will address later in this CaV).

Lets start off with the post I made earlier:

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The order keeps messing up... read from middle, right then left.:

So hulk has the weight of a star on his back which is one hell of a durability feat in its self, but hes also being attacked by proximas spear which as she says has the power "of an all consuming supernova". So thats a star, a supernova AND corvus glaive whose spear can cut through atoms. Eventually after holding out for a prolonged amount of time he succumbed and reverted back to banner. Just to give an example this is what corvus single handedly did to hyperion:

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Its worth noting that hyperion later killed corvus due to captain america having a stroke of luck.

But there's more:

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  • Tanks a weapon that rewrites molecules on a subatomic level
  • Shrugs off heat vision from an evil mind controlled hyperion like nothing

"Rewrites molecules on a subatomic level."

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  • Resists a weapon that ultron use to mold adamantium, just imagine how hot that is.

I will go into more detail (including his healling factor) later into the debate.

Speed

I would like to quickly admit that I know superman vastly outclasses hulk in speed, Im adding this section mainly for consistencies sake (so it'll be pretty short).

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  • blitzes through a group of soldiers.
  • blitzes, again.
  • and again.
  • speed blitzes an ice giant
  • Keeps up with mjolnir
  • blitzes through a wall of absolute zero
  • blitzes proxima and corvus

Again this section is purely for consistency purposes.

Note: allot of these scans are cropped since I couldnt find the whole scans, just ask for the issue numbers if you would like to know more context behind them.

Well that was my intro, now if you wouldn't mind I have a few questions about your intro.

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- Break Green Lantern constructs with ease.

Are there many feats that show how durable green lantern constructs are in the new 52? Its a good feat but I dont know how good.

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- Benchpressing the weight of Earth

Thats a great feat but honestly it isn't up to scratch with allot of things hulk has done, granted I know superman was weakened in the instance. Are there any other superman feats in the new 52 that coincide with superman being that strong?

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- Tagged Flash

To be perfectly honest flash looked like he was joking around in the instance, practically making fun of superman. Clearly he didn't want to be hit but at the same time he wasn't taking things seriously at all.

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- Took an Omega Beam to the back and survived in one piece.

What feats do omega beams have that make that a great durability feat? Besides superman was hurt bad by that, "Survived" was a good word to use.

Yeah im pretty much done now, your turn @lowlaville

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#24 Posted by BlueBeetle1 (1331 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol here comes the stomp. Id answer the questions but ill let the 1 on 1 debate go on.

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#25 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@bluebeetle1: CaV's aren't made for who you think would win, it's who provides the better argument. It's nice to know that you think it's a stomp but the idea is to see who represents their character better, not who you think would win.

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#26 Posted by BlueBeetle1 (1331 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by BlueBeetle1 (1331 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Edited by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel:

Eh. A lot of hyperbole in your arguments. I'll address key points.

Hulk holds the weight of a star on his back (I will elaborate on this later).

Weight of a star? I read hyperbole, from an arrogant villain.

Hulk draws blood and has an extended fight with hyperion, the same one which survived the collapse of two universes.

Eleborate. How exactly did Hyperion survive the collapse? He took the blast or whatever that happened directly? Show me scans and feats. Otherwise, you are making a hollow statement.

Uses his strength to hold to help power dooms machine which held off exitar:

LOL. Hulk would be obliterated by Exitar. Unless you are saying Hulk is universal+ ? Doom makes a machine using Hulk's gamma energy and rage power and that's somehow a strength feat vs Exitar for Hulk? I do hope you are kidding.

So hulk has the weight of a star on his back which is one hell of a durability feat in its self, but hes also being attacked by proximas spear which as she says has the power "of an all consuming supernova". So thats a star, a supernova AND corvus glaive whose spear can cut through atoms. Eventually after holding out for a prolonged amount of time he succumbed and reverted back to banner. Just to give an example this is what corvus single handedly did to hyperion:

I have struck out the hyperboles in your above argument.

Wonder woman had a sword that could cut through atoms. Superman had no trouble grabbing the sword.

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Then again, Superman can take Omega beam and not be obliterated so it comes to surprise that Superman is at least as durable as Hulk is. Diana has a feat with the same sword blinding Darkseid after cutting through his Omega Beam with her bracelet and sword.

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  • Tanks a weapon that rewrites molecules on a subatomic level
  • Shrugs off heat vision from an evil mind controlled hyperion like nothing

- Do you have any feats for this weapon outside of the statement? What was the weapon supposed to do?

- How strong is this heat vision?

  • Resists a weapon that ultron use to mold adamantium, just imagine how hot that is.

Let's assume I have no imagination. Need actual feats.

Superman has taken stronger blasts and survived. A kryptonite bomb. Takes his own heat vision from parasite (5000 degrees). The kryptonite bomb feat is more impressive.

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As far as the speed goes, anyone can practically tell you Superman is faster. Here's him reacting faster than light.

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Now moving on: To answer your Questions.

1. Yes, I will say, the constructs are very powerful. For instance, we have Hal stopping a Tsunami wave with one of his constructs and then ultimately contain the wave.

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The constructs are powerful enough to hold wonder woman.

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2. Superman tossed warwold into the phantom zone (missing the scan where Superman actually handles warworld). But the writer's word suffices to explain the feat. His blows shook the planet and the atmosphere.

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And there's the good doctor saying the measures from previous benchpressing has exceeded.

3. Here are more speed feats.

- Superman can process, compute and memorize in Super Speed, explains why he is so fast. Learns how to operate within seconds after reading what I'm going to assume is thousands of text books on medical science.

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Oh yeah-- Superman isn't just strong and fast, he is a genius as well. Someone who can learn a level of knowledge that takes 10 years in just 5 minutes.

I've presented Superman reacting to light above so I'll stop here for now.

What feats do omega beams have that make that a great durability feat? Besides superman was hurt bad by that, "Survived" was a good word to use.

"survived" was the word I used. XD Omega beam is something that reduces its targets to nothing if not ash. Darkseid is a god, so that's a feat which says ample. At least, considering how bad Hulk got his behind handed to him at the hands of Zeus who did not even use his actual powers, Superman taking the beam in one piece is a lot more impressive. There's only Doomsday and Superman with a history of tanking it. Everyone else, just wasted away.

There's just a slight problem with New 52 for Darkseid. He has no feat besides knocking out Superman twice and facing the entire Justice League while he was at it. At least, none for Omega Beam. Superman has shown to resist damage on a molecular level, even his brain tissue is invulnurable. Thus, the best possible feat for the beam thats been said to obliterate anything on contact is the fact that Superman lived to tell about it.

Moving on, Hulk is at a major disadvantage in this fight because of two things aside from the speed advantage:

- Superman's flight
- Superman's heat vision and Freeze breath.

Superman can assault Hulk with these from a distance or even kill Hulk with one good blow to the head, as Thor almost did. And Thor's best strikes are on the same level as Superman physically.

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All Superman has to do here is.. not hold back. If one does not suffice, Superman has the speed to hit hundreds of times before Hulk can react. That's pretty much over however you look at it.

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#30 Edited by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

All righty, lets begin...

Round 1

Weight of a star? I read hyperbole, from an arrogant villain.

What you read is drastically different from what everyone else read. Proxima had no reason to lie, if anything she was taunting him. The only "hyperbole" there is how heavy the star was. Luckily even the smallest stars make earths weight look like a feather in comparison so it still dwarfs supermans feat.

Eleborate. How exactly did Hyperion survive the collapse? He took the blast or whatever that happened directly? Show me scans and feats. Otherwise, you are making a hollow statement.

By pretty much being in the dead center of it, "technically" it was more of a planetary feat, heres the scan:

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I will cite hulk expert ghostravage and an explanation I took from his CaV against frozen:

The instance where Hyperion seemingly survived unscathed the collapse of a universe doesn't match with the explanation you're trying to give, albeit, the misconception comes from part of the text boxes of the scans of Avengers #4... This is where context comes to play, as explained by Reed, during the Incursion there's a moment of harmony where the 2 Earth's can co-exist within the same universe, moreover, he also states there's 2 possible scenarios that could take place in this moment... Whether the 2 Earths are destroyed, which is what happened to Hyperion, or 1 of them is destroyed and the other occupies the "new" universe that both of them were sharing. So in simple words, Hyperion DID survived the destruction of a >single< universe, not 2.

That said, let's address the notion of Hyperion being way too high to tank such destruction unscathed. The fact that Hyperion was between 2 planets, and not 2 universes, since he was between 2 >Earths<, leaves the feat as a solid planetary feat till that point. Introducing the destruction of the universe would make people think it's universal, but there's no concrete indication that what destroyed that universe was a universe busting force, but rather the fact that 2 Earth's can't exist in the same universe outside the moment of harmony in the Incursion. If anything, the feat doesn't imply he has universal durability but planetary durability at best, which actually matches with his feats later on as well as Hulk's.

That should explain things.

LOL. Hulk would be obliterated by Exitar. Unless you are saying Hulk is universal+ ? Doom makes a machine using Hulk's gamma energy and rage power and that's somehow a strength feat vs Exitar for Hulk? I do hope you are kidding.

Hes holding the two anchors in place which power the forcefield which in turn held off exitar, Dooms forcefileds were never designed to be that big nor take that amount of weight, hence they chose hulk to help. Its pretty much explained to you, on a quantifiable scale it would be a similar weight to earth.

I have struck out the hyperboles in your above argument.

Just because you don't like them doesn't mean you get to ignore them, your basically completely ignoring the writers intentions with the feat and so far you haven't in anyway proven they're just hyperbole. Especially the second part which you failed to even mention.

Wonder woman had a sword that could cut through atoms. Superman had no trouble grabbing the sword.

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Then again, Superman can take Omega beam and not be obliterated so it comes to surprise that Superman is at least as durable as Hulk is. Diana has a feat with the same sword blinding Darkseid after cutting through his Omega Beam with her bracelet and sword.

She wasn't even attacking with it, she was literally just getting ready to charge and your trying to compare it to corvus? He was actively stabbing hulk whereas she was just getting ready to attack with it. Furthermore why didn't you address this feat as hyperbole as well (not that it is)? You cant just nitpick instances that suit your case but decide to dismiss other incredibly "similar" instances that you don't have anything to show for. So far you haven't proven hes half as durable as hulk is, and again, how does diana stabbing darkseid have anything to do with superman grabbing dianas sword? She was actively stabbing darkseid whereas all clark did was hold her sword, no correlation there whatsoever mate.

- Do you have any feats for this weapon outside of the statement? What was the weapon supposed to do?

Thats like asking if a certain pistol has any feats prior to shooting spiderman, its completely irrelevant. And it does what it says on the tin. I will show you the scan again:

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As you can see the scan clearly says the guns real purpose was to rewrite molecules on a subatomic level. Just so your sure heres hulk resisting another gun that screws with molecules:

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  • In the first scan its explained that the gun is supposed to disintegrate molecules and its worth so much that building one would bankrupt a small nation.
  • In the second scan hulk tanks it, waste of money really.

- How strong is this heat vision?

Strong enough to hurt hulk when he isn't very angry (he was being mind controlled, he didn't have a reason to be angry):

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  • Hulk screws up hyperions face.
  • a dose of heat vision (which is what I was referring to).
  • rag-dolling hyperion.
  • Hyperion hits hulk in the face.

let's assume I have no imagination. Need actual feats.

Ultron can no sell mjolnir hits and thors lighting. Even hulk can barely affect him, Ultron used that to mold his body so it would have to be incredibly hot, hotter than new 52 supermans heat vision anyway...

Superman has taken stronger blasts and survived. A kryptonite bomb. Takes his own heat vision from parasite (5000 degrees). The kryptonite bomb feat is more impressive.

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  • The kryptonite bomb is only quantifiable for kryptonians, Ironman might be able to survive something like that, honestly its not a great feat to show off supermans durability purely because its his weakness.
  • You just terminated clarks heat vision advantage. 5000 degrees? Is that it? and clark was hurt by that? regular nukes emit hundreads of thousands to millions of degrees Celsius at ground zero and hulk has taken several of them over the years without so much as a single singe burn. Even the humans torches supernova cant scratch hulk and that's consistently been said to burn at around 1 million degrees. If 500o degrees is all you got then I fail to see how it would so much as tickle hulk.

1. Yes, I will say, the constructs are very powerful. For instance, we have Hal stopping a Tsunami wave with one of his constructs and then ultimately contain the wave.

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Thats less than impressive mate, sure it good in that its what a hero would do, but in terms of showing off power? Not so much.

The constructs are powerful enough to hold wonder woman.

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Wonder woman in the new 52 is nothing compared to what she used to be, another extremely unimpressive feat. Its debatable whether she surpasses freaking aquaman in raw strength. I mean, find ONE scan of diana pulling a solid strength feat greater than this:

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And to be honest that feat isn't even that good.

2. Superman tossed warwold into the phantom zone (missing the scan where Superman actually handles warworld). But the writer's word suffices to explain the feat. His blows shook the planet and the atmosphere.

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  • How big is warworld? It would have to be AT LEAST earthsize for it to be comparable to hulks strength nowadays. By the way Im pretty sure his blows shaking the planet are his absolute best striking feats in the new 52 to date, not something he can easily replicate.

Superman can process, compute and memorize in Super Speed, explains why he is so fast. Learns how to operate within seconds after reading what I'm going to assume is thousands of text books on medical science.

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Oh yeah-- Superman isn't just strong and fast, he is a genius as well. Someone who can learn a level of knowledge that takes 10 years in just 5 minutes.

Thats all well and good but it wont help him here, Show me a speed feat of other people moving in slow motion or him perceiving things incredibly slowly, not just him reading things.

survived" was the word I used.

And I said it was a good word to use.

Omega beam is something that reduces its targets to nothing if not ash.

Prove it, if anything is hyperbole then that is. As far as im aware all hes done with it is seriously injure superman, unless hes used it on someone noteworthy and killed them its impossible to tell how good a feat it was.

Darkseid is a god, so that's a feat which says ample.

Being a "god" means nothing, its just a title and as far as im aware he hasn't done anything "godworthy" in the new 52 yet. I mean storm was seen as a god at one point, are you telling me that she is all powerful as well? Didn't think so, being a god is just a title, nothing more.

At least, considering how bad Hulk got his behind handed to him at the hands of Zeus who did not even use his actual powers,

By feats Zeus would rip darkseids head off, hes constantly said to be odins equal and has a few feats to back that up. Comparing zeus to darkseid is ridiculous IMO. As for zeus beating hulk? I will cite ghostravages and acidskulls context files: hulk thread again (that thread is a lifesaver).

Another popular one, Hulk fighting a Skyfather in Incredible Hulks #622 is definitely something to chew on, however... People tend to overlook some important context about the fight while citing it. They always make it look like Zeus's beat down on Hulk was because he was SO above The Green Scar he made him puke his organs out. While we're going to try and mention some context, we're not trying to imply Hulk could take on a Skyfather, but merely stating the facts on why Hulk went down in such a way.

Hulk's "Reward" while fighting Zeus

First of all, the reason on why Hulk fought Zeus is almost never noted when people refers to this instance, whereas noting it may change the view of it completely. Hulk didn't want to fight Zeus, he was just going to complaint to the one in charge that the Hulks didn't get anything after helping Hercules in Chaos War while everybody else got restored and cured. Moreover, he decided to become a sacrifice and give his family what they deserved...

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So Hulk was actually aiming to be beaten in the first place, so he didn't have the reasons to keep fighting and fighting like he showed during the Chaos War or in Hela's realm or even in the Dark Dimension. He needed to make Zeus mad and show submission at the end to see if his family get what they deserved in exchange of possibly his life.

That said, there are 2 other points to mention in this instance to contextualize it entirely. Say, Hulk seemingly losing his healing factor and Zeus "cheating" while giving down the punishment.

Zeus dampening Hulk's healing factor

This is pretty easy to claim since it was deliberately implied at the end of his fight by Hephaestus when Hulk was chained to a rock Prometheus's style...

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Coincidentally, this analysis came out WAY before the next issue Incredible Hulks #623 in which it was blatantly showed when Hulk was rescued and brought to New Mexico...

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In all fairness, Zeus was actually zapping Hulk's healing factor and strength as the fight progressed by the use of magic, which isn't a bad thing, but in this case, it is and it's some context that SHOULD be noted all the time. Hulk didn't lose that badly because Zeus was that "much" stronger than him, but because his healing factor was being affected which essentially, is what makes Hulk such a pain to deal with.

Covering this part bring us to the next point...

Zeus "Cheating"

This last point is probably the one people ignores the most, and even though it doesn't hold much in the sense of arguing Hulk potentially beating a Skyfather, it does presents some relevancy when referring it to the instance in question.

The punishment delivered by Zeus was supposed to be a simple brawl for a number of reasons. One of them was Hulk taunting him from the start to not use his powerset as he would realistically do...

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He called Zeus a coward when Hera mentioned Zeus potential to deal with Hulk with a thought, Hulk had his reasons to do this and he actually managed, to some degree, make him not use his powers to their fullest for reasons previously stated. Moreover, Zeus himself states he's going to deliver the punishment "by hand" which would imply they are going to brawl.

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To ultimately support the notion of Zeus's explicitly stating that it was going to be a brawl, he actually tells Hulk the fight was going to be on his terms, which logically, would mean a brawl since there's nothing more Hulk could do...

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So what problem to we have with this instance and Zeus's seemingly using magic to dampen Hulk's healing factor?

  • Zeus told Hulk it was going to be on his terms, and i don't recall any instance where Hulk used magic, so by definition it was going to be a simple brawl.
  • Zeus didn't simply "brawl", because he used magic to dampen Hulk's healing factor and zap his strength.
  • The facts stated previously are the reasons Hulk went down so hard.
  • Hulk didn't want to fight Zeus to begin with and let himself get beat that way precisely to save his family.

To conclude, Zeus doesn't have feats to suggest he's up there with the likes of Odin and even Thanos. Moreover Zeus has fought Thor for quite prolonged times in the past which would imply he's not "powerful" to begin with and that he only exploited his magic and Hulk's dependency over his healing factor to deal with him.

~GhostRavage

That should explain it remarkably well.

Superman taking the beam in one piece is a lot more impressive.

By "taking the beam" do you mean getting one shotted?

There's only Doomsday and Superman with a history of tanking it. Everyone else, just wasted away.

We are using new 52 superman so doomsday tanking it is irrelevant. When using a new 52 character stick to new 52 feats.

There's just a slight problem with New 52 for Darkseid. He has no feat besides knocking out Superman twice and facing the entire Justice League while he was at it. At least, none for Omega Beam.

So in short you cant quantify the feat?

Superman has shown to resist damage on a molecular level, even his brain tissue is invulnurable. Thus, the best possible feat for the beam thats been said to obliterate anything on contact is the fact that Superman lived to tell about it.

So clearly the beam doesn't "obliterate" everything it hits since all we have seen it hit is wonder womans sword and superman, both are still in one piece.

- Superman's flight

- Superman's heat vision and Freeze breath.

  • Supermans flight is an advantage gone to waste since he doesn't have any ranged attacks that can affect hulk.
  • I have already proven that supermans heat vision wont be able to tickle hulk and you havent shown a single scan of him using freeze breath or how effective it is.

or even kill Hulk with one good blow to the head, as Thor almost did. And Thor's best strikes are on the same level as Superman physically.

No Caption Provided

That feat is incredibly ambiguous and is dismissed by most serious thor fans. Even people such as lvenger dismiss it entirely. Its not known when it occured, how, why, nothing is known about it. The only time thor seriously injured hulk like that was with a bolt of lighting during hulk annual: 2001 and hulk wasnt exactly ready for it. 1 minute later hulk woke up, attacked thor when hewasnt ready for it and proceeded to knock him out. A horrendous feat to use especially when thor isnt involved in the thread.

Superman has the speed to hit hundreds of times before Hulk can react. That's pretty much over however you look at it.

Prove to me clark consistently fights at those speeds. one scan of him moving at lightspeed due to laze- actually now I have my issues with superman moving at lightspeed. It wasn't stated on panel or anything, just him moving to block a laser of some sort. Street levelers like black panther, spiderman, wolverine, captain america and batman have all dodged lasers at some point or another, shouldnt they be lightspeed as well? Your going to have to do more than that to prove he consistently moves at those speeds.

One aspect of hulk that I haven't got into yet is his healing factor, so I think should quickly do that.

Healing factor

Hulks healing factor is at such a degree that he can heal from being reduced to almost a skeleton in seconds:

No Caption Provided

Or heal back half his head:

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Point is that hes extremely hard to kill when you combine his healing factor with his durability. His overall toughness should IMO allow him to cope with supermans speed difference but not entirely counter it. All he has to do is give supes a round of applause, thunderclaps...

Its entirely in character for hulk to use and depending on how powerful his foe is also depends on how hard he hits them as explained here:

No Caption Provided

The stronger the foe the harder he is going to hit you so that means clark will be feeling some full force thunderclaps. Im going to be lenient with supes and say that the thunderclaps wont do more than stun him for a few moments, more than long enough for hulk to start hitting him. As far as im aware superman doesnt have a notable healing factor so everytime hulk hits him hes going to be feeling it for the rest of the fight, however unlike supes hulk will heal and get stronger everytime he has a moment of respite.

Just to get rid of the "superman can outrun the thunderclaps!" argument, jay garrick is confirmed to be able to run at lightspeed but that didnt stop him from being momentarily stunned by black adams thunderclap:

No Caption Provided

Except hulk hits much harder than that...

To summarize

  • Hulks strength dwarfs supermans so every hit he lands will hurt more than vice versa.
  • Hulk healing factor and durability will allow him to cope with the speed difference and the amount of hits clark will land.
  • Thunderclaps are a viable strategy to stun supes and give hulk a chance to heal whilst delivering permanent damage to superman.
  • Superman lacks the ranged damage output to do anything more than p#ss hulk off.
  • Superman lack the durability to take to many punches from hulk and his lack of a healing factor means every hit hulk lands will count unlike vice versa.
  • Hulk smash!

Sorry if i seem aggressive mate, its just how I naturally am so don't take it the wrong way. (and i get a little competitive sometimes)

By the way how many posts do you want to do before we call for votes?

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#31 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Edited by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: I'm excited. Primarily because I have not gotten into a comic debate in a looooong time!

What you read is drastically different from what everyone else read. Proxima had no reason to lie, if anything she was taunting him. The only "hyperbole" there is how heavy the star was. Luckily even the smallest stars make earths weight look like a feather in comparison so it still dwarfs supermans feat.

So, to summarize, you have nothing to back your statement with. You essentially just failed to provide any evidence to support this Proxima's weapon? (I have no idea what actually happens in the scan) was putting the weight of a star on Hulk's back, or as you say, just how heavy this star was. You failed to provide any evidence that says if the weight was equivalant to that of a star.

  • Hyperbole =/= any feat shown for Superman.

Now, I don't think I need to say this, but I am not looking at this guy (girl's) reasoning as you deduced that she had none to lie about. I'm not contemplating on whether or not it was a lie, I'm asking you, do you have any feat or proof to back the said statement? You just called Hulk as supporting the weight of a star and proceeded to show Superman's inferiority. I just refuse to let it slide by, simple as that. It remains hyperbole unless you can show me it is not.

By pretty much being in the dead center of it, "technically" it was more of a planetary feat, heres the scan

And, here's what shows you don't know what you are talking about. You cited and are using the post of a respected member of the vine. Now I wouldn't mind you doing this in a normal debate, but you get minus points for this stunt. I'm not actually obliged to even read the paragraph or two. I will however comment on the scan you posted.

Hyperion is standing in the middle of what appears to be two planets. According to the statemets (on panel), he held of two planets from colliding into each other, and then the universes collapsed? I don't see any relevancy to this and Hulk vs Hyperion. It's not like the planets were trying to draw blood from Hyperion?

Hes holding the two anchors in place which power the forcefield which in turn held off exitar, Dooms forcefileds were never designed to be that big nor take that amount of weight, hence they chose hulk to help. Its pretty much explained to you, on a quantifiable scale it would be a similar weight to earth.

Quantifiable? Is there anything given off of which to quantify or any statements you forgot to show me? You speculate if not with the weight of Exitar's foot or his powers by comparing them to Hulk.

Just because you don't like them doesn't mean you get to ignore them, your basically completely ignoring the writers intentions with the feat and so far you haven't in anyway proven they're just hyperbole. Especially the second part which you failed to even mention.

First, I have no such personal preference. There is nothing for me to ignore. All your scan had were dialogues; statements- that prove nothing.

You were the one who posted the scans, I call them hyperbole, because they are, with nothing to back them on or with. If you believe they are anything but hyperbole, its your cup-of-tea to prove. I don't know why you are trying to throw your set of hyperbole on my shoulders. XD

She wasn't even attacking with it, she was literally just getting ready to charge and your trying to compare it to corvus? He was actively stabbing hulk whereas she was just getting ready to attack with it. Furthermore why didn't you address this feat as hyperbole as well (not that it is)? You cant just nitpick instances that suit your case but decide to dismiss other incredibly "similar" instances that you don't have anything to show for. So far you haven't proven hes half as durable as hulk is, and again, how does diana stabbing darkseid have anything to do with superman grabbing dianas sword? She was actively stabbing darkseid whereas all clark did was hold her sword, no correlation there whatsoever mate.

Two things you may want to concentrate on here:

- Dark Seid's Omega beam vaporize (in other words molecularize- however you want to term it) it's targets. Superman grabbed Diana's sword, which in turn supports Superman's durability. The fact that the sword pierced through Dark Seid's omega beam, a weapon that can cut through molecules further reinstate Superman's durability.

- How do you define hyperbole? I'm very curious. You have a sword that can cut through atoms.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

NOTE: This is a durability for Superman. He was completely drained of all energy after a huge fight with Diana and still could tank a nuke at point blank.

Do you actually mean to say a sword that can cut through atoms, just.. any sword for the matter, only cuts when you thrust/swing it? Did you try grabbing the blade of a sharp kitchen knife or something? Don't tell me it did not cut you just because you grabbed it! That would be hillarious.

Thats like asking if a certain pistol has any feats prior to shooting spiderman, its completely irrelevant. And it does what it says on the tin. I will show you the scan again:

This is one of the better arguments you had all day. You are right, its irrelevent. And in this case, I am just going to assume its a normal cannon, laser or plasma cannon fire? So why bring in some feat when you can't back it up.

As you can see the scan clearly says the guns real purpose was to rewrite molecules on a subatomic level. Just so your sure heres hulk resisting another gun that screws with molecules:

  • In the first scan its explained that the gun is supposed to disintegrate molecules and its worth so much that building one would bankrupt a small nation.
  • In the second scan hulk tanks it, waste of money really.

I saw the writing on the scan the first time you showed it to me. Does that gun thing have a trial run, a demonstation of it's capabilities otherwise?

Your statement goes like this, just because its written in a box, its actually true? No, I need feats supporting your argument, as I have provided mine. The guns are not impressive.

If a small nation goes bankrupt just making it, I'm also expecting a trial run to see if it actually works. Let me guess... you have nothing.

Strong enough to hurt hulk when he isn't very angry (he was being mind controlled, he didn't have a reason to be angry)

Curious. What is the measure of making hulk groan? lol Planet level? Universe level? I was looking for physical feats of the potency of the lasers as you were bold enough to mention them.

Ultron can no sell mjolnir hits and thors lighting. Even hulk can barely affect him, Ultron used that to mold his body so it would have to be incredibly hot, hotter than new 52 supermans heat vision anyway...

Speculation as far as the heat goes. Nothing of it was mentioned. Believe me, I have tried, they don't give any quantifiable number for molding adamantium.

  • The kryptonite bomb is only quantifiable for kryptonians, Ironman might be able to survive something like that, honestly its not a great feat to show off supermans durability purely because its his weakness.
  • You just terminated clarks heat vision advantage. 5000 degrees? Is that it? and clark was hurt by that? regular nukes emit hundreads of thousands to millions of degrees Celsius at ground zero and hulk has taken severalof them over the years without so much as a single singe burn. Even the humans torches supernova cant scratch hulk and that's consistently been said to burn at around 1 million degrees. If 500o degrees is all you got then I fail to see how it would so much as tickle hulk.

1. I hope you are not joking here... exposure to even a small kryptonite weakens superman. This was a massive bomb that spread across what appears to be a continent.

2. There are a few things I want to say here:

The 5000 degrees statement is essential hyperbole with nothing to back it up with.

Superman was never hurt by his own lasers.

That's big statement being made again. You need showings of the said feats. Otherwise, all I hear are dog barks... (not insulting you in anyway, its a phrase....)

Since this is taking too long and you are practically stalling right now, I'll skip your routine and get to the point with Superman's strength.

Along with MMH, he pushed Brainiac's mothership that was about 5x bigger than Earth, preventing it from slamming into Earth at incredible momentum.

No Caption Provided
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Even if we practically divide the size of Brainiac's ship between the both of them, its still more strength than anything Savage Hulk has shown handling. All you have for an argument is a statement you can't even back up on.

That feat is incredibly ambiguous and is dismissed by most serious thor fans. Even people such as lvenger dismiss it entirely. Its not known when it occured, how, why, nothing is known about it. The only time thor seriously injured hulk like that was with a bolt of lighting during hulk annual: 2001 and hulk wasnt exactly ready for it. 1 minute later hulk woke up, attacked thor when hewasnt ready for it and proceeded to knock him out. A horrendous feat to use especially when thor isnt involved in the thread.

Its a simplistic matter. Hulk got almost killed and one shotted by someone whose physical strength is likely on par with that of Superman. Its clearly shown on scan. Your attempt at dismissal is pretty bad, especially when Thor claims it was a pure physical blow.

Now for durability, here's Superman tanking Black Hole lasers. That only gave him a nose bleed.

No Caption Provided
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You want speed? Here's Superman going from Pluto to Earth in under a second. There are strength and durability feats labelled here. Namely: Superman can "drop kick" moon out of orbit on a bad day and can "resist atomization".

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Starfire (princess Koriand'r)'s ship was docked close to Pluto and Superman was there when Starfire teleported to Earth. That's speed. Hulk is not going anywhere near Superman.

Just to get rid of the "superman can outrun the thunderclaps!" argument, jay garrick is confirmed to be able to run at lightspeed but that didnt stop him from being momentarily stunned by black adams thunderclap:

I don't know what you want to show here honestly. Black Adam is from DC, not Marvel. Jay Garrick whoever that is is from DC as well. This "showing" is clearly not New 52. You have any proof of this "lightspeed thunderclap" argument? Unless you mean black adam is as slow as Hulk. XD Its not going to work.

  • Hulks strength dwarfs supermans so every hit he lands will hurt more than vice versa.
  • Hulk healing factor and durability will allow him to cope with the speed difference and the amount of hits clark will land.
  • Thunderclaps are a viable strategy to stun supes and give hulk a chance to heal whilst delivering permanent damage to superman.
  • Superman lacks the ranged damage output to do anything more than p#ss hulk off.
  • Superman lack the durability to take to many punches from hulk and his lack of a healing factor means every hit hulk lands will count unlike vice versa.
  • Hulk smash!

Point wise:

  • Your "showing" was hyperbole you failed to back up on. Hence, its actually vice versa. Superman's visible strength dwarfs anything Savage Hulk has shown.
  • That's a fallacy. Thor almost killed Hulk in a single shot. Superman is more than capable of ending this in a single blow.
  • Permanent damage? Superman survived Darkseid's Omega Beam (I have no DC feat saying it demolecularizes its target. But there's a lot of pre New 52 feats for Omega Beam), Black Hole bullets and he himself said he can survive a supernova (exploding sun) or a nuclear meltdown.
No Caption Provided
  • This is something that can be explained, but I'm already losing interest, so...
  • Durability? Hah No. He's still more durable than what you have shown me. The hyperbole weight of a star thing? Please. You have to do better than that to convince me.

Sorry if i seem aggressive mate, its just how I naturally am so don't take it the wrong way. (and i get a little competitive sometimes)

By the way how many posts do you want to do before we call for votes?

Haha. Don't worry about it. Where it counts, I'm about as competitive as you. I know you have had bad experience with the other guy, but everythings cool with me so don't worry. lol

You can have a last post and we can go for voting. I'm already at the end of my interest, don't wanna drag this any longer. Except for a point or two, all the cards in my hand has been dealt. But I'd rather not prolonge this, I have to spend energy on my other CAVS too.

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#33 Edited by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville: I'll have my post up in a few hours, it's been a great CaV mate.

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#34 Edited by uugieboogie (13023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@uugieboogie: sure thing mate, how do you think the CaVs been so far?

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#36 Posted by uugieboogie (13023 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: Quite good actually . I want to see how you plan for Hulk to overcome Supes speed & aerial advantage . Hulks got the durability & insane healing favor or but Supes strength feats lately have been insane too as well as Hulk holding up that star . I can't wait to see how this turns out !

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#37 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Edited by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Edited by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

Final round

So, to summarize, you have nothing to back your statement with. You essentially just failed to provide any evidence to support this Proxima's weapon? (I have no idea what actually happens in the scan) was putting the weight of a star on Hulk's back, or as you say, just how heavy this star was. You failed to provide any evidence that says if the weight was equivalant to that of a star.

Theres a difference between what your claiming it is as opposed to what it actually is. Do I have a scientist calculating exactly how much it weighs? No, I don't. What I dohave is the OWNER of the weapon clearly and evidently claiming that the weight of a star is on hulks back, without a hint of sarcasm. Feats aren't judged that way mate and the fact that it managed to hold hulk down further supports the claim. If it helps hulk has pulled a similar feat in marvel team ups annual 2 where he over powers an attraction force greater than that from a neutron star, performing feats of this magnitude are nothing new to him and so far you haven't done anything except claim its "hyperbole" when proxima clearly wasn't exaggerating.

  • Hyperbole =/= any feat shown for Superman

Great statement that I would normally agree with, sadly the feat in question wasn't hyperbole.

Now, I don't think I need to say this, but I am not looking at this guy (girl's) reasoning as you deduced that she had none to lie about. I'm not contemplating on whether or not it was a lie

You cant toss around the term "hyperbole" without looking at the characters reasoning and the way they say something, your tearing away at your own argument here mate.

I'm asking you, do you have any feat or proof to back the said statement?

I have the owner of the weapon who evidently knew its capabilities stating in a serious tone that hulk had the weight of a star on his back, the feat is further reinforced when the star actually managed to keep hulk down (granted he was slowly getting back up). Other than that there isn't anything to use, she was a character introduced in infinity so if anything those statements are accurate untill they are proved wrong. So far all you've said is "its hyperbole!" but then went on to say you didn't look at the characters reasoning and didn't even know what was going on in the scan. Your blowing holes in your own argument, saying something is hyperbole then saying you didn't know what was going on is the same as saying "I hated that book!" when you didn't even read the book. It doesn't work mate....

You just called Hulk as supporting the weight of a star and proceeded to show Superman's inferiority. I just refuse to let it slide by, simple as that. It remains hyperbole unless you can show me it is not.

Other than the hyperbole part that's an exact representation of what I did.

And, here's what shows you don't know what you are talking about. You cited and are using the post of a respected member of the vine. Now I wouldn't mind you doing this in a normal debate, but you get minus points for this stunt. I'm not actually obliged to even read the paragraph or two. I will however comment on the scan you posted.

Sorry mate but that's a terribleexcuse to use, evidently you read the post (don't bother saying you didn't) and im sorry but you cant get out of it that easily, ive seen MANY debates where people cite other users for explanations on things, none of which have been called out. I even went and asked the man himself and he said it was fine and knows numerous high tier debaters who also have done it. you cant use this as an excuse to get out of countering the explanation mate, you get browny points for trying but don't take me for a fool. And the insult was also completely unsupported and unnecessary.

According to the statemets (on panel), he held of two planets from colliding into each other,

Its also shown in the art as well.

and then the universes collapsed? I don't see any relevancy to this and Hulk vs Hyperion. It's not like the planets were trying to draw blood from Hyperion?

that explanation you refused to acknowledge explains all of that, the planet ended up crashing into him and the rest I will leave below, do try to read it this time:

the instance where Hyperion seemingly survived unscathed the collapse of a universe doesn't match with the explanation you're trying to give, albeit, the misconception comes from part of the text boxes of the scans of Avengers #4... This is where context comes to play, as explained by Reed, during the Incursion there's a moment of harmony where the 2 Earth's can co-exist within the same universe, moreover, he also states there's 2 possible scenarios that could take place in this moment... Whether the 2 Earths are destroyed, which is what happened to Hyperion, or 1 of them is destroyed and the other occupies the "new" universe that both of them were sharing. So in simple words, Hyperion DID survived the destruction of a >single< universe, not 2.

That said, let's address the notion of Hyperion being way too high to tank such destruction unscathed. The fact that Hyperion was between 2 planets, and not 2 universes, since he was between 2 >Earths<, leaves the feat as a solid planetary feat till that point. Introducing the destruction of the universe would make people think it's universal, but there's no concrete indication that what destroyed that universe was a universe busting force, but rather the fact that 2 Earth's can't exist in the same universe outside the moment of harmony in the Incursion. If anything, the feat doesn't imply he has universal durability but planetary durability at best, which actually matches with his feats later on as well as Hulk's.

Its all there explained excellently by ghostravage.

Quantifiable? Is there anything given off of which to quantify or any statements you forgot to show me? You speculate if not with the weight of Exitar's foot or his powers by comparing them to Hulk.

I will try to explain this to you, heres the scan again:

No Caption Provided

Hulk is holding twoanchors in place, anchors that supposedly power the machine otherwise hulk wouldn't be holding them. That forcefield was never designed to encompass the entirety of earth so hulk would have to already start pushing the machine past its natural state quite significantly. Hulk is the only thing that allows that to happen. Then exitar puts all his weight on it, so the machine that is already past is natural capacity just had a LOT of weight dumped onto it, the machine has long exceeded its natural capacity that it could withstand so where does all the excess strain go to? Hulk. the weight of earth is a ball park figure but in actual fact its most likely allot more than that.

First, I have no such personal preference. There is nothing for me to ignore. All your scan had were dialogues; statements- that prove nothing.

You chose to ignore proximas statements and treat them as hyperbole (something ive already proven wrong) yet when corvus said something remarkably similar in the exact same situation you chose to treat is as a fact. Why? My guess is that you had that scan of supes holding dianas sword (which coincidentally also cuts through atoms) in mind and thought you could use it against hulk since bruce was hurt and clark was not, despite remarkably different circumstances. Nit-picking to suit your own agenda isn't a great way to go mate.

Superman grabbed Diana's sword,

Grabbing and being stabbed are two vastly different things.

How do you define hyperbole? I'm very curious.

I define it as when people are being metaphorical or exaggerating.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

NOTE: This is a durability for Superman. He was completely drained of all energy after a huge fight with Diana and still could tank a nuke at point blank.

Hyperion was throwing every reserve of energy he had left into to keeping two planets apart, then they crashed into him (pfft, nukes hit hard...) and he didn't suffer any significant injuries , Hulk made him bleed. Whats your point?

Do you actually mean to say a sword that can cut through atoms, just.. any sword for the matter, only cuts when you thrust/swing it?

I expect that someone with amazing durability would be able to hold it without getting cut, hence why hulk wasn't cut until corvus actually stabbed him.

Did you try grabbing the blade of a sharp kitchen knife or something? Don't tell me it did not cut you just because you grabbed it! That would be hillarious.

When I was a kid, yes, all the time. You wanna know the funny thing? It didn't cut me... Try it mate, holding a knife from the bladed part doesn't cut you, at least untill you start squeezing it like a madman , I found that out the hard way...

This is one of the better arguments you had all day. You are right, its irrelevent.

Then why would you ask me the question in the first place?

And in this case, I am just going to assume its a normal cannon, laser or plasma cannon fire?

Take a look at the scan again:

No Caption Provided

In the top right scan the narration clearly says that the arms depot was filled with plasma ammo railguns, emps and dark-matter bazookas, that's literally every weapon you listed. The gun in question was called the sonic assault rifle and had half a page of narration to explain what it is. So no, it wasn't just some "normal cannon or laser" nor was it a regular gun by any means.

So why bring in some feat when you can't back it up.

Did you completely ignore the part where it said the gun was meant to rewrite molecules on a subatomic level?

Curious. What is the measure of making hulk groan? lol Planet level? Universe level?

You call this "groaning"?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

He sent an un-angry hulk flying.

I was looking for physical feats of the potency of the lasers as you were bold enough to mention them.

And I provided you with one.

Speculation as far as the heat goes. Nothing of it was mentioned. Believe me, I have tried, they don't give any quantifiable number for molding adamantium.

You don't need numbers to make an impressive feat mate, thors best shots cant scratch adamantium, neither can hulk. Simple logic would tell you that the heat required to melt adamantium is much greater than anything hulk or thor can produce.

1. I hope you are not joking here... exposure to even a small kryptonite weakens superman. This was a massive bomb that spread across what appears to be a continent.

The problem IS the kryptonite mate, how are you not getting this? Its impossible to quantify for anyone but kryptonians.

The 5000 degrees statement is essential hyperbole with nothing to back it up with.

That guy didn't seem like he was lying, you said yourself that he had an exact copy of clarks heat vision and its max appeared to be 5000 degrees, your just back-tracking now mate and it doesn't look good on you

Since this is taking too long and you are practically stalling right now, I'll skip your routine and get to the point with Superman's strength.

Another completely unsupported and unnecessary jab at me.

Along with MMH, he pushed Brainiac's mothership that was about 5x bigger than Earth, preventing it from slamming into Earth at incredible momentum.

No Caption Provided

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Even if we practically divide the size of Brainiac's ship between the both of them, its still more strength than anything Savage Hulk has shown handling. All you have for an argument is a statement you can't even back up on.

Thats a very good feat although it still doesn't put him on par with hulks two star level lifting feats.

Its a simplistic matter. Hulk got almost killed and one shotted by someone whose physical strength is likely on par with that of Superman. Its clearly shown on scan.

Thor has admittedthat hulk is physically stronger than him, your attempt at abc logic is abysmal mate, especially when using an instance as unreliable as that. I could just pull scans out where hulk virtually knocks out thor, of which there are three (one of which is reliable) whereas thor has two instances of knocking out hulk, one is reliable the other is virtually considered not-cannon, take a guess at which one you posted...

Your attempt at dismissal is pretty bad, especially when Thor claims it was a pure physical blow.

I was referring to hulks annual in 2001 which im pretty sure I already said, its the one reliable instance where thor has knocked out hulk and was written almost 15 years ago, hulks reliable knock out was almost 5 years ago I believe.

You want speed? Here's Superman going from Pluto to Earth in under a second.

combat speed.

There are strength and durability feats labelled here. Namely: Superman can "drop kick" moon out of orbit on a bad day and can "resist atomization"

That is so hypocritical I cant believe it. Lets post the scan so everyone can see:

No Caption Provided

The stuff written in those text boxes are the ABSOLUTE DEFINITION of metaphorical, I cant believe you used that as a "feat".

  • Your "showing" was hyperbole you failed to back up on. Hence, its actually vice versa. Superman's visible strength dwarfs anything Savage Hulk has shown.

You've failed at proving anything is hyperbole so its quite the contrary, Hulks strength and durability dwarfs supermans.

  • That's a fallacy. Thor almost killed Hulk in a single shot. Superman is more than capable of ending this in a single blow.

I've explained the knockout feat so its safe to say your statement is false.

  • Permanent damage? Superman survived Darkseid's Omega Beam (I have no DC feat saying it demolecularizes its target. But there's a lot of pre New 52 feats for Omega Beam), Black Hole bullets and he himself said he can survive a supernova (exploding sun) or a nuclear meltdown.

Pre 52 statements mean nothing in the new 52. and him saying he could survive things is a hollow statement since hes never displayed anything like that (at least with the supernova part).

  • This is something that can be explained, but I'm already losing interest, so...

Nice excuse.

  • Durability? Hah No. He's still more durable than what you have shown me. The hyperbole weight of a star thing? Please. You have to do better than that to convince me.

Ive shown more than enough to prove hulk has superior durability, I cant say the same for you and superman.

To summarize

  • Hulks strength dwarfs supermans so every hit he lands will hurt more than vice versa.
  • Hulk healing factor and durability will allow him to cope with the speed difference and the amount of hits clark will land.
  • Thunderclaps are a viable strategy to stun supes and give hulk a chance to heal whilst delivering permanent damage to superman.
  • Superman lacks the ranged damage output to do anything more than p#ss hulk off.
  • Superman lack the durability to take to many punches from hulk and his lack of a healing factor means every hit hulk lands will count unlike vice versa.
  • Hulk smash!

Thanks for taking part in the CaV with me mate, it means allot and this is my first proper one. Its been a great experience but I believe we are now going to votes.

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#40 Edited by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingant27 @lvenger @cregan_stark @uugieboogie

tagging for votes.

People who Id like to callout

@ghostravage @reaverlation @dondave @highaccuser @serrure @frozen

and itd be much appreciated if @saren or @god_spawn could give a vote as well.

Id love if you guys could critique us or just give reasons for your answers, no holds barred. thanks!

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#41 Posted by reaverlation (25832 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel gets my vote

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#44 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation: thanks for the vote mate, if you don't mind me asking what was the reasoning for your vote? Again sorry to be a nuisance and you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

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#45 Posted by Kingant27 (16895 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville gets my vote, good debating on both sides; but Superman's clear speed advantage gives it to Superman and @lowlaville.

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#46 Edited by reaverlation (25832 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: Though I would defend Superman beating Hulk because that's how I see it,you did much better in defending Hulk and why he's among the top if not #1 physically to others in his class.@lowlaville did well but he could've presented Superman much more proficiently IMO.

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#47 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation: thanks for your reasoning and for the vote mate :).

It's much appreciated.

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#48 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville: @thedailybagel: thanks for the tag... not sure who i would vote for yet. very compelling argument in speed and strength vs pure durability and strength. ill need to reread. the problem is I have a dentist appointment (wish me luck!) so itll be a few hours

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#49 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: man I hate the dentist, good luck and take as long as you need with the vote :).

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#50 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio