CAV: The Sentry Vs Goku(VOTING OPEN!!!)

@uberhikari: In character and in nature goku wants to fight his opponents at their best. Beating them before they can do anything is not in character for him at all.

@deathhero61: Tell that to Recoome and several other fighters he's speedblitz.

@uberhikari: Nah it was when he was taking his weights from Kami off. He said something about not being as fast as he wanted to be. Then either Krillin or Tien said " Goku moves at the speed of light, yet he thinks he's slow."

Edit: It was Yamcha that said it, I can't find any scans on it, or on the fight for that matter, but I'll keep looking. Here is a link though. http://www.watchcartoononline.com/dragonball-episode-140-english-dubbed

It's at 10:17.

But like I said it was probably a hyperbole.

@redmonkeyssj4 said:

Oh that. That was a dub error. It wasn't in the original manga or Japanese anime.

@deathhero61:

Uh no, not at all. Goku only lets the opponent power up to their fullest if he is confident in the outcome. If you're not powerful enough to contend, you get blitzed.

What exactly did I say so wrong? I mean considering you said Goku never speedblitzes even though I posted numerous instances of him doing so, I can't help but feel like you didn't even read more than a few lines...

ummmm goku is a star buster?

The fact that it took krillin a few days at low hypersonic speeds to travel a planet apparently making goku light speed?(there is so many things to think about such as how far krillin traveled and what he was doing while he was traveling, and how far was goku's resting place from frieza's location.)

Goku's punches being multi-planet busters despite no shockwaves or hints of the punch being so not being shown? (how was vegeta able to catch such a punch? and if so how come the earth around them wasn't being destroyed? There is no way he would be able to contain the shockwave, and im pretty sure goku punched his opponents before with a full power punch by yet the planet wasn't destroyed......)

Calling an energy based attack a supernova?

Want more examples?

You lost this debate because you relied heavily on speculation and powerscaling. Your opponent relied on facts and shown feats.

And you did not even counter his statements of molecule/matter manipulation or his versatility with his other abilities. Your ending statement was just a way of getting the debate over with(it seemed like your heart wasn't in it as soon as you read his closing statement.)

I'll admit you debated great but you didn't really beat your opponent....

@deathhero61:

That was only due to them being so far down goku's level. Sentry being below goku's level is ridiculous, especially with the feats shown here.

And Sentry has nothing on Goku Combat Speed wise, and don't bring up travel speed feats to defend this because that's an irrelevant argument.

Goku would soon find out in battle that Sentry is not a speedy opponent if he couldn't read Sentry's Ki to begin with. Therefore, Sentry gets blitzed.

@deathhero61: The point is, regardless goku speedblitzes.

@redmonkeyssj4: you mean how the flash speedblitzes goku? Teehee!

*runs away*

From start to finish this was undeniably and undoubtedly one of the greatest Challenge a Viner matches, I have ever read and enjoyed!!!!! Both debaters brought forth a level of skill that easily hold variety in how compellingly deep the arguments actually were in the defending of their respective characters, however there are a few concerns that I must address. One of them being I wished the debate went on longer and got more into the more smaller as well as finer details because I was enjoying it that much being the beholder and reader that is being engrossed with such a grand experience also a personal factor that I would of made sure was within the content of my arguments in regards to nickzambuto respectfully debating for Goku I would of included information from the handbooks and character profiles so there would be a balanced level of credibility in the aspect of research especially since Goku is a manga/anime character and not a comic book one. That`s the only real issue I had for that side of things, I think there should of been more references and inputs that directly originated from the source material rather than just the videos also with SSJG not being highlighted does hurt or hinder the stances for Goku in terms of King Stranglehold da first debating for the Sentry I think he shouldn`t of used feats that stemmed from Death Seed Sentry and the fact that he used quite a number of them illustrates the point of my idea its the fact that those specific feats don`t even correlate with the Sentry (the original`s) character, the characterization is totally different its very speculative or hypothetical at best rather than factual and assured that a stable-minded Sentry would be able to accomplish the same. Also I feel as though Sentry`s combat speed wasn`t proven enough to the point where its arguable that he would get blitzed or not, I believe Goku would easily blitz him especially in a random encounter with telepathy being the only saving force but there are feats if studied, analyzed, researched and sought enough that show that Goku and many of the other DBZ characters do in fact have telepathic abilities of their own and I`m not even sure if the Sentry would even use telepathy with morals on especially being stable minded as well as having more of a rationality. Another small problem for me is the fact that many key things were not specified within the OP such as what feats would be allowed for Goku in regards to the anime movies and OVAs since he`s a very broad character it brings confusion, but overall I want to say this debate was a stalemate because both sides managed to convince and convert me to their arguments one way or the other but for the sake of how the points were measured as well as how the more realistic arguments were structured together I would have to give it to @nickzambuto by a slight margin but in terms of who I think would win in a straight-up fight, I think Goku would defeat or even curbstomp Sentry due to his combative speed and combative intellect he would be able to sense Sentry`s energy, easily exploit it and then adapt according to the advantages of the battlefield surrounding him as well as the will to fight that is within him as ki is an internal force as much as it is an external one. I don`t think telepathy overall is a seal deal in every instance of fighting since there are many variables that surround the ability itself and the Sentry doesn`t have in my opinion a quantifiable amount of feats especially with morals to suggest he would fall back on it, he`s a very close quarters fighter himself also SSJG Goku has shown to being able to absorb energy like when he absorbed Bills` supernova attack so the ability to absorb energy is not exclusive to the Sentry. Also, I think Nick should of factored in SSJG Goku into the debate since he could of drew from a lot of unique and handy feats also for the fact that Akira confirmed within an interview that ki energy itself deals with the principles of the mind which is fighting spirit this was solidified as being fact throughout an official interview that comes from the DBZ Super Exciting Guide Book which also if I`m not mistaken talks about Goku lifting 40 tons and what it actually means.

Also on a side-note Goku and many of the more powerful DB characters are definitely as well as easily light speed and beyond considering the consistency of their speed levels hypersonic speeds were already being breached as well as reached during Dragon Ball and Goku has in many instances dodged, reacted to and replicated light speed attacks as he can also follow-up as much as combat at light speeds due to Instant Transmission which is teleportation at its finest and Goku during Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods along with Bills has shown to being able to move at light speed which was shown during their fight within the city, as the people could not even see a thing, not even a mere blur they were moving way passed to what the eye could see and during the Cell games the cameras that were built to trace light speed movement couldn`t even trace a spec of what Cell and Goku were doing to further this as fact Vegeta within Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods during his training in base form was dodging actual lasers from all angles. Also in regards to Bills only being a solar system and star buster that is not true he is easily a galaxy buster as confirmed by Piccolo and Whis his master officially confirmed that an angry Bills would be able to destroy solar systems without even trying which means he wouldn`t need to reach his full capacity of ki, Cell already was a solar system buster during Dragon Ball Z.

Also Goku not being able to lift 40 tons is a massive misconception for many reasons but that`s a discussion for another day and lifting strength does not equal striking strength which Goku easily has over the Sentry in SSJ2 form being at SSJG form will only make it quicker to take Sentry out in close combat but I`ll leave a portion of information for the 40 tons specifically that directly comes from the handbook.

146;s worth pointing out that it basically says the reason Goku’s weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it much harder. Goku’s never shown using Bukujutsu during any of his gravity training on Kaio’s or in the spaceship (at least not in the manga, that I can remember). It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit. Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book’s interview.

Q. What's the trick to winning battles [in the DB world]?

A. Toriyama says it all comes down to 'ki', the size of it and the ability to control it. He says it includes several forms: genki, yuuki & shouki (energy, bravery & true character). You can only train your muscles to a certain point, it's 'ki' that carries you beyond that and what helped Goku come closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

@neongamewave:

Good info. I didn't know about all that. Learn something new everyday.

Thanks and I agree:)

@neongamewave:

Just some clarification:

King Stranglehold da first debating for the Sentry I think he shouldn`t of used feats that stemmed from Death Seed Sentry and the fact that he used quite a number of them illustrates the point of my idea its the fact that those specific feats don`t even correlate with the Sentry (the original`s) character.

No. I didn't use any feats from Deathseed Sentry to try to prove a point in this debate. It was quite the opposite, I tried to actually AVOID using Deathseed Sentry.

The one with Sentry stating he regenerated from atom to atom was actually priorto the deathseed. In which Deathseed Sentry stated to Thor that before he became the Deathseed he was regenerating over and over again in the sun. That was to showcast the many of Sentrys insane regeneration. Again prior to the Deathseed.

The one with telepathy was to showcast that Sentry CAN use telepathy offensively. Regular Sentry already has telepathy and has used it offensively once, but I wanted to show that it is not taboo for him to use it offensively and that he has used it recently. Again telepathy is actually apart of his abilities. And I also shown regular Sentry using it offensively against Super Adaptoid.

The third one was Deathseed Sentry using Molecule Manipulation to create sand people. I posted those because Nick stated that Sentry only used Molecule Manipulation only once in his career when he fought Molecule Man. Not only did I show him Sentry using matter manipulation prior to Dark Avengers/Siege, I also shown him Deathseed Sentry using it. He said he wanted to know if Sentry recently has used it. I shown him Deathseed Sentry using his MM powers. Why? Because MM is actually APART of his abilities. You see I wasn't using Deathseed Sentry for this debate, I was showing that Sentrys past abilities are still being used by Deathseed Sentry since some questioned if Sentry even still had those abilities. Deathseed Sentry is not even a completely different version of Sentry he is just a Sentry amped up with the Deathseed and Rick the current writer of Uncanny Avengers confirmed that. Deathseed Sentry still displayed his old abilities, but I didn't use him because Deathseed Sentry is amped up by the Apocalypse twins. If I was using Deathseed Sentry for this debate, I would have brought up Deathseed Sentry handly beating Thor who is a high herald character or Deathseed Sentry speed blitzing Thor with high speed he has not shown. Regular Sentry has SHOWN telepathy and Molecule Manipulation. To reiterate I only posted THREE scans of Deathseed Sentry which was only to show that those abilties that regular Sentry had is still being used by the Deathseed Sentry which is what Nick wanted me to show, especially with Molecule Manipulation.

So yes they do correlate.

the characterization is totally different its very speculative or hypothetical at best rather than factual and assured that a stable-minded Sentry would be able to accomplish the same.

How is it speculative or hypothetical when Sentry has SHOWNMolecule Manipulation, and using telepathy offensively PRIORto the Deathseed. No offense, but I think you didn't read why I posted the Deathseed Sentry scans in the first place. Again it was to showcase that he still had those abilities. Especially Molecule Manipulation. And again Deathseed Sentry stating that he was regenerating from an atom in the sun was again prior to the deathseed amp.

Sentry vs Goku's combat speed is debatable. But Sentry has actually been stated to be as fast as light why Goku has not.

And how can Goku sense Sentrys energy when Sentry doesn't even run off of ki...The Z-Fighters sense power levels due to Ki and which Sentry does not have. The only speculative thing I posted was Sentry possibly being able to go intangible and him being able to absorb Goku's ki energy and I even said that I wasn't putting faith into those two arguments because there was enough evidence. And Goku is not going to absorb Sentrys energy because again Sentry does not run of off Ki and that attack with Bills was not a supernova and I explained why it wasn't. But we can agree-disagree on that one because if we argue on that one, I can tell it would turn into a flame war which I really do not want to happen.

@king_stranglehold_da_first: You bring up a lot of great points and I understand where you are coming from but the main reason, I mentioned Death Seed Sentry is because its not comparable in a debate that involves a stable minded Sentry, I`m fully aware of why you factored in that form but its not like it will affect the battle one way or the other that was my point and it doesn`t stand side by side with the characterization or the circumstances of the rules.

I didn`t say Goku would have to, or that he is going to absorb Sentry`s power, my point was that Goku himself can absorb energy and ki is a universal life force so it isn`t an outstretch either way in regards to energy absorption, also Goku can sense many types of energies and I don`t see why he wouldn`t be able to sense The Sentry`s movements as well as bodily composures regardless since he studied this method from the beginning of when he was only a little kid.

In terms of combat speed, me myself being a fan of the Sentry and understanding his character knows for a fact that Goku easily is much faster when it comes to combat also his feats and foundations for those feats prove that he is in fact light speed it doesn`t need to be blatantly stated on panel to make it much more credible or believably confirmed once you know that manga as well as comics are very much different in how they are structured and what they are intended for it would become more reasonably understandable.

@neongamewave:

You bring up a lot of great points and I understand where you are coming from but the main reason, I mentioned Death Seed Sentry is because its not comparable in a debate that involves a stable minded Sentry, I`m fully aware of why you factored in that form but its not like it will affect the battle one way or the other that was my point and it doesn`t stand side by side with the characterization or the circumstances of the rules.

Now I get what you're saying. And I may have miss read you and my bad. But a stable minded Sentry would use telepathy. Just saying. He used it against Super Adaptoid.

And thanks.

I didn`t say Goku would have to, or that he is going to absorb Sentry`s power, my point was that Goku himself can absorb energy and ki is a universal life force so it isn`t an outstretch either way in regards to energy absorption, also Goku can sense many types of energies and I don`t see why he wouldn`t be able to sense The Sentry`s movements as well as bodily composure regardless since he studied this method when he was only a little kid.

Just curious. What energies has Goku sensed besides ki? Again just curious.

In terms of combat speed, me myself being a fan of the Sentry and understanding his character knows for a fact that Goku easily is much faster when it comes to combat also his feats and foundations for those feats prove that he is in fact light speed it doesn`t need to be blatantly stated on panel to make it much more credible or believably confirmed once you know that manga as well as comics are very much different in how they are structured and what they are intended for it would become more reasonably understandable.

Interesting post. But me to me personally I think Sentry can hand with Goku when it comes to combat speed. Its just that writers most of the time havent shown him using his combat speed. We already know he is extremely fast. This scan is non canon and so I did not want to post it. Here is what Sentry using his combat speed may look like in my opinion.

Again its non canon. But I believe Sentry is capable of it since he already has amazing speed.

@neongamewave:

Interesting. But I'm not going to try and debate against Goku since the debate is over and I'll look like a douche still arguing why Sentry would beat Goku even when the debate is over. :P :P :P

Just wanted to clear somethings. .

But interesting scans.

@deathhero61 I really don't want to be mean, but I seriously doubt you actually read without skimming, and if you did, you clearly didn't pay much attention.

ummmm goku is a star buster?

I mentioned that once because it apparently happened in Dragon Ball Online, which is canon.

The fact that it took krillin a few days at low hypersonic speeds to travel a planet apparently making goku light speed?(there is so many things to think about such as how far krillin traveled and what he was doing while he was traveling, and how far was goku's resting place from frieza's location.)

If you read my posts, Krillin traveled halfway across Namek to reach Elder Guru. Likewise, Goku traveled halfway across the planet to meet Freeza. We know exactly how far they both traveled because it was stated.

Goku's punches being multi-planet busters despite no shockwaves or hints of the punch being so not being shown? (how was vegeta able to catch such a punch? and if so how come the earth around them wasn't being destroyed? There is no way he would be able to contain the shockwave, and im pretty sure goku punched his opponents before with a full power punch by yet the planet wasn't destroyed......)

How come Sentry and Thor's punches never destroy the planet? A completely ridiculous claim. Fact is Goku DID destroy a planet with his bare hands in Battle Of Gods when he punches through King Kai's planet, which has 10 times Earth's density.

Calling an energy based attack a supernova?

Looked like a super nova to me.

Want more examples?

You lost this debate because you relied heavily on speculation and powerscaling. Your opponent relied on facts and shown feats.

I only power scaled a handful of times to give context at the end of my posts. Honestly if you didn't notice the ridiculous amount of scans I posted then... you didn't read.

@neongamewave said:

There's that stupid scan. I swear I couldn't find it anywhere.

Thanks a lot for the vote and all your thoughts. This is my very first time using Goku in a CAV match, there was a lot more I could have done (should have brought out the BotGs King Kai planet busting feat at the beginning to back-up my argument about punching through Freeza's durability, and I also could have countered Sentry's telepathy with Goku's ki and emotion sensing abilities, plus a lot more) but that comes with practice.

I'm curious, where was it stated that the Cell games cameras were designed to track light speed movement? I have NEVER heard that before.

@nickzambuto said:

@neongamewave said:

There's that stupid scan. I swear I couldn't find it anywhere.

Thanks a lot for the vote and all your thoughts. This is my very first time using Goku in a CAV match, there was a lot more I could have done (should have brought out the BotGs King Kai planet busting feat at the beginning to back-up my argument about punching through Freeza's durability, and I also could have countered Sentry's telepathy with Goku's ki and emotion sensing abilities, plus a lot more) but that comes with practice.

I'm curious, where was it stated that the Cell games cameras were designed to track light speed movement? I have NEVER heard that before.

Your welcome and you did an admirable job in showcasing Goku`s abilities as well as capabilities :) I have plans of my own in terms of using Goku in a Challenge a Viner debate, I want to showcase how powerful he truly is without the need for power-scaling (although it would factor in somewhere). Good question, I believe in one of the panels it was referenced that the cameras were designed to track light itself with the help of the lens, also I think it goes back to the early tournaments of Dragon Ball during when Goku was a little kid and he was moving so fast that they couldn`t even track him with their cameras so for the future they had to have hi-tech equipment made in order to have him tracked.

Gallery

These feats are from Roshi and Krillin but the impressive aspect is the fact that Goku becomes many times faster than both of them during his earliest and most weakest years, these scans highlight crazy speeds.

Many people are going to say I'm "low balling". But the speed feat by Krillin and Jackie Chan(Roshi) is really not that impressive as it looks, its actually a very low end DB feat and there are much better ones, heck much better ones posted by Nick in this debate. I would explain in detail why it is low end, but I am trying to avoid starting a big flame war. Just pointing that out. For those who want to here why I say so, just PM me.

Again there are much better speed feats in DBZ than that one.

Not to be pestering but the scans are actually really impressive and your point strengthens my post because I was trying to illustrate the fact that Goku even in his days as a kid has been able to surpass speeds that would be considered supersonic-hypersonic in range also the ways in how these feats are performed are very casual which means its without exertion or just the characters simply being overwhelmed by their own extent in the boundaries that they can outperform regardless if its low end or not my point still stands its the fact that even low end feats can be quantified as memorable and impressive ones it only gets better from that point there on. I wouldn`t mind discussing this through P.M though :)

If you read my posts, Krillin traveled halfway across Namek to reach Elder Guru. Likewise, Goku traveled halfway across the planet to meet Freeza. We know exactly how far they both traveled because it was stated.

Halfway across namek? half away across the planet? isn't that practically the same thing? the planet is called planet namek. So i can assume that krillin flew basically the same distance but slower. Halfway is a way of saying that the distance is pretty damn far, the feat itself is not even quantifiable.

How come Sentry and Thor's punches never destroy the planet? A completely ridiculous claim. Fact is Goku DID destroy a planet with his bare hands in Battle Of Gods when he punches through King Kai's planet, which has 10 times Earth's density.

I'm not sure if i recall correctly but weren't they on earth most of those times? which would lead to thor holding back? and also doesn't sentry's powers vary on his mental state? and if i recall correctly doesn't sentry tends to hold back allot or he cannot use his full powers due to him forgetting about them in the first place? And king kai's planet is not even close to the size of earth, so that feat is not enough to prove that he can bust a planet as large as earth with his punches, and based on your powerscaling with mecha freeza that planet should be dust considering that goku blocked planet busting slashes with his index finger in SSJ1 form. Like your opponent said durability does not equal density. and density does not equal weight. So the kai busting feat is no different from goku punching his enemies into walls or mountains and what not.

King stated several times that physical doesn't equal non-physical. Just because frieza apparently tanked planet busters doesn't mean goku's punches wouldn't hurt him. For example monkey d. luffy. IIRC he tanked a island splitting blow. Yet an explosion from caesar still hurt him(take note, although his body is immune to physical blows that doesn't change the fact thats actually a durability feat for his rubber body)

I only power scaled a handful of times to give context at the end of my posts. Honestly if you didn't notice the ridiculous amount of scans I posted then... you didn't read.

That post was irrelevant, you clearly said you were going to post all those feats before you went back to counter his points. Which really didn't matter since he countered those feats as well by saying that all the people goku speed blitzed were small time, and honestly goku knew it as soon as he laid eyes on them.

@deathhero61: I really can't continue this. You seem incapable of grasping the most simple of concepts. I'll try and explain one more time.

Goku and Krillin flew the SAME DISTANCE. That's my entire point. However it took Krillin four days to do it, whereas Goku did it instantly. We know how fast Krillin is, so we can use that to gauge Namek's size, and doing that tells us that traveling across it in one second is faster than the speed of light.

Your point about Goku's punches not causing planet-destroying shockwaves is ridiculous. When a karate instructor punches through wooden blocks, that doesn't send out a massive shockwave that destroys all wooden blocks in the area...

King Kai's planet was 10 times as dense as Earth. Go back to second grade and learn what density is.

How can you possibly rationalize disregarding Freeza's feat of surviving a planet blowing up while cut in half, on the basis that it's "not physical"? Are you kidding me? What the hell is it then? Mental? Sigh.

i can show you a anime character only flying at mach 24 from tokyo japan to the amazon river to pick up a fish then fly back in only a few seconds. Your point?

The shockwaves created by a fictional character's punches is due to their striking strength or physical strength. For example. The video below

It should be marked at 1:34

Another example is the fight between Superman and General zod. Superman and General zod were trading blows and the intensity of those blows destroyed a planet IIRC.

a more simple example is this

How can you possibly rationalize disregarding Freeza's feat of surviving a planet blowing up while cut in half, on the basis that it's "not physical"? Are you kidding me? What the hell is it then? Mental? Sigh.

What i mean by that is tangible or non-tangible attacks not physical or non-physical sorry if i confused and P.O'D you. an explosion is not exactly tangible......

Are you saying that goku's punches are exactly like an explosion? that they have the same shape and form of an explosion? the same exact feel? same exact heat and everything?

@beware_my_power: I mean like how Flash speed blitz everyone.

@neongamewave: I read your big post, and

1. Paragraphs. Please, paragraphs.
2. "Other side of the world" is a vague term.
3. Cell is by no means a solar system buster. Buu's greatest feat later was only small star level, and he's far stronger.
4. I'm going to reserve my judgement on Bills' power. The sub of Battle of Gods was pretty painful.
5. If Bukujutsu is just flight, he did that all of the time in gravity training.

I'm not saying Sentry wins, since he has some pretty severe disadvantages, I just had some problems with your argument.

I'd also like to say to nobody in particular that DBZ striking force is vastly below their ki blasts, and as a result their physical durability is also likely lower.

1. ?

2. How so, you haven`t explained why you have only stated what you believe to be true its actually shown in the manga and indicated throughout the context of the story itself that alone holds more value in weight than your argument.

3. He actually is for the simple fact that Akira confirmed it throughout his handbooks many times via the different official and indisputable sources of reference also power scaling works comfortably fine as well so the foundation is there. Overall there are many facts as well as factors that point Cell towards the tier of Solar System power, Buu is stronger but he`s not smarter or more rational. The difference between the two is that Cell knew his power and his actual output he`s a super efficient AI that can measure energy which is why he concentrated his blast exactly knowing what it could do when dispersed, Buu went around just terrorizing planets for the sake of it before diminishing them to nothingness and he was very ballistic in the way that he had it done although it was more of a transitional movement. Super Buuhan has easily shown the power to not only affect but ultimately destroy the universe itself he was harnessing his ki energy into a precise source that allowed him to rip apart reality and Kid Buu with just a mere scream can puncture holes throughout reality itself without no need to exert so ki blasts can easily do the same with the right input and with the right instilled instinct.

4. Fair enough but my point still stands regardless.

5. What makes it impressive is that the style itself is meant to be a very tricky and challenging method to manage yet Goku succeeded and we do not know the actual time frames in which he emerged when dealing with the specifics of his training we don`t know how long he was participating in the levels of the training or how long it actually took also gravity itself is a lot more heavy as it is overwhelming being on a Grand Kai`s Planet, also many forget the fact that Goku is already wearing weights on his body similar to how Rock Lee from Naruto wears his weights.

I understand.

@web_flotsam:

You can keep denying Cell isn't a Solar-System Buster as much as you like because all that you and everybody else can say on the claim is that is was hyperbole without any specific evidence provided to back up your claim.

I've already been over why it isn't hyperbole in a CAV before and i've used an entire article dedicated as to why it wasn't hyperbole:

Is Cell a Solar System Buster?

im going with sentry. i feel the argument for his molecule power, telepathy, strength and regeneration from a atom was not countered enough and he seem more powerful then goku. on gokus side there was too much powerscaling and speculation like eye lasers being photons or big energy ball being nova. before i this debate i didnt known much about sentry and hated the character but now he looks powerful. good thread but going with sentry.

Dude, YOU'RE Kakarot88 on ScrewAttack? Mate I read your "Death Battle erred in Goku vs Superman blog" when I joined ScrewAttack temporarily and whilst I didn't agree with all of it, it was by far the best case for Goku ever presented IMO. Wow this makes debating you on our own CAV all the more of an honour given what you've come up with for Goku's side of the argument.

@lvenger:

Uh, dude I ain't Kakarot88 (as much as i'd like to be). Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I simply meant that I explained why Cell is a Solar-System Buster on another CAV (the Thor VS Goku one) and used Kakarot's "Is Cell a Solar-System Buster?" blog link to elaborate my case.

Apologies for the misconception mate, haha.

OH I see now. I got confused with you citing the blog Kakarot88 did as well as you saying you based a whole blog around that topic. That's why I got confused now. My bad but you've already proven to be on that level with that Thor vs Goku CAV and all that.

@pope052: I looked over the blog and there were a few things I disagreed with. First, the line about Buu destroying the earth "ten times over" was anime only, and would put him at weaker than Freeza considering he destroyed a planet that size with ease. Also, the talk of power focusing was pretty pointless, since it was clearly while they were firing, not after the blast explodes. Also, the movies are non canon, and they actually do change the characters' powers pretty thoroughly, like Goku's being stronger than Freeza when using kaiokenx20 and being able to absorb a spirit bomb. Really, the only good point was the part talking about the guides, and if those are official, Cell most likely can destroy much of the solar system, although I still doubt he could destroy the sun with the rest of it considering Buu shows weaker attack strength at full charge.

'Twas a good debate, but I'm going to have to go with @king_stranglehold_da_first.

I felt his arguments had a little more weight to his case. Nick did great as well, though.

My vote goes to king_stranglehold_da_first. In my opinion I believe he presented a more convincing argument for his character winning than his opponent did for their character.

@lvenger: Not trying to drag up an argument or anything, but what were the parts that you did agree with and what you didn't agree with?

@limpoyzloan: Sentry's Molecular Manipulation being above Molecule Man's was chief among them and accepting statements of hyperbole, figurative speech and unsubstantiated comparisons to House of M level crises were among my problems with the Sentry side of things.

Just some corrections. Because I don't want people to get the wrong idea.

When did I ever state that Sentrys Molecule Manipulation powers were above Molecule Man's? I never stated such thing, I only said he beat Molecule Man after Molecule Man actually killed him many times. Where in my post did I even state that? The only thing I stated was that BOTH Sentry's and Molecule Man's Molecule Manipulation are above Buu's transmutation powers as seen in DBZ. As for the House of M thing, I used that(and even said it) because many people regarded the whole situation with Molecule Man PIS yet right "after" it was stated twice that an outbursts from Sentry could trigger something "similar" to House of M and "remake" worlds. Again this was after his fight with Molecule Man which it was stated twice, and why can't he "remake" worlds? Since he actually has Molecule Manipulation powers, but we haven't seen him use it to its fullest. But anyways if I was trying to compare him with House of M Wanda I would have stated that Sentry can affect the omniverse or even universe which he has not done and I doubt he can do until we see otherwise. As for statements. I even stated they were mere statements but were to connect the dots to the Molecule Man fight because many people regarded it as PIS. I just showed that before and after the Molecule Man fight that Sentry was stated many times to be around the level when he fought Molecule Man, but the other point I was making was that we've never seen a stable Sentry using his full potential and his own handbook states he has "potentially" limitless powers when stable. So thats why I used certain statements. They were just to connect the dots to Molecule Man fight really, since again people regard it as PIS and also because we've never seen a fully stable Sentry using his full potential.

As for hyperbole I could have easily used when Sentry stalemated Galactus twice but I didn't.

@king_stranglehold_da_first: I really don't want to start another line of debate in this thread but trust me when I say that I strongly disagree with several of your assertions for very strong, reliable reasons and that I still regard the Molecule Man fight as PIS writing from Bendis.

For one you already misinterpreted one my argument by saying I said Sentrys MM powers were above Molecule Mans. If you think his fight with Molecule Man is PIS then okay but how does that even deflate my argument? When it happened.

No I never misinterpreted your argument, you still proposed that Sentry beat MM fairly after being killed twice. And because Molecule Man has shown universal level feats of molecular manipulation before yet Bendis nerfs Owen massively and makes him job in that one instance to make Sentry seem important and powerful and set the scene for his fall from grace. There, clear Plot Induced Stupidity on Bendis' part in the power levels between the two characters which deflates your argument because it isn't a reliable or trustworthy feat in the slightest.

Very good arguement but my vote goes to @nickzambuto

@lvenger:

No I never misinterpreted your argument,

Yes you did. You stated:

"Sentry's Molecular Manipulation being above Molecule Man's was chief among them"

I asked you when did I state such things?

you still proposed that Sentry beat MM fairly after being killed twice.

Um...Sentry DID beat Molecule Man fairly. Sentry was only able to come back due to being "immortal" which was shown even BEFORE he fought Molecule Man. Sentry being killed by Molecule Man twice obviously shows Sentrys MM powers were not above his.

And because Molecule Man has shown universal level feats of molecular manipulation before yet Bendis nerfs Owen massively and makes him job in that one instance to make Sentry seem important and powerful and set the scene for his fall from grace. There, clear Plot Induced Stupidity on Bendis' part in the power levels between the two characters which deflates your argument because it isn't a reliable or trustworthy feat in the slightest.

Yet before Owen killed Sentry twice and all the Avengers, affected a whole city and made a versions of Beyonder and Dormmamu. And straight after the fight it was stated twice that he can potentially do something similar to what Wanda did with House of M. And again even before his fight with Molecule Man it was stated he was a threat to the Earth and even universe. Yeah there just statements, but they hint something about how powerful Sentry is. As in fall from grace, if your talking about Siege, Bob wanted to die. I don't get whats PIS about his fight with Molecue Man when before it was stated multiple times that he was potentially on that level or how it deflates my arguments.

Also back to Siege. In the What If(its actually canon but another reality) Void killed everyone on Earth and went straight to the cosmos. The Watcher of that reality went and told the Watcher of the 616 reality about if Osborb would have won. Another hint.

Both did an awsome job. But I have to go with Nick for this debate. IMO he proved that Goku could beat Sentry without going SSJG. I didnt remember seeing any scans of Sentry fighting hypersonic characters. Nick gave good evidence that Goku was at least hypersonic when Goku was a teen. Goku is many times faster in the Namek Saga than he was in Dragonball. And In DBZ, if you cant keep up with your opponent then the battle is over.

nick zambito... I like the way he quickly should what he had to counter and didn't get irritated at all. like I would have...