King-Stranglehold da first as The Sentry
VS.
nickzambuto as Goku
RULES!
Location:
Battle Music:
King-Stranglehold da first
Alright here I come... >:)
First lets cover whats a stable minded Sentry is. A stable minded Sentry is a Sentry we have rarely have seen besides in the Paul Jenkins two volumes. I don't what to bore you guys, but have to, in order for you to know why Sentry even wins this. Lets start from the nitty gritty...Robert Reynolds(the host) is diagnosed with schizophrenic with generalized anxiety disorder and agoraphobia and that all has a many impact on his powers. To put it in simple words. Bobs mental state is basically like a scale. The more mentally stable Bob, the more powerful the Sentry is and not only that, he as more access to almost all his powers. BUT! The more mentally unstable/ill Bob is, the weaker Sentry is. His mental state is connected to his physical powers.
"When stable he has potential for limitless power....... however if his mental states waves he becomes weaker and easier to defeat."
As you can see from the above it clearly states his mental state plays a huge affect on his powers. Then we have Emma Frost who says this:
She states that his physic powers is what holds his physical powers together. We already know Sentry is weaker when he is mentally unstable, but this Sentry that Goku is fighting is not. This Sentry that Goku is fighting is not only more intelligent than the Sentry during Bendis run but now he gets to use almost all his powers and is extremely powerful. And Goku won't even know how Sentrys powers work in this situation. But this leads us to Sentrys true potential....
Its sad though, because most people don't know how powerful the Sentry is. Some think he is just some flying brink or that he needs the Void to be powerful. BUT! What is a Sentry using his full potential? Well..A Sentry using his full potential is very damn scary Sentry at that. Sentry is like Goku but on steroids!!! Sentry can sense other peoples auras, just like Goku. Sentry can teleport, also just like Goku. Sentry has great energy manipulation, again just like Goku. And the Sentry can unleash planetary level destruction, just like Goku. The Sentry is literally Goku on steroids and is more of a 'god' than this Super Saiyan 'god'. But lets see why Sentry at his full potential is not only dangerous but scary. Lets take a look at his fight with Molecule Man(post retcon), which almost everyone regards as PIS...
Molecule Man kills Sentry twice using his molecule manipulation.
Sentry finally getting the hang of his powers comes back to fight and defeats Molecule Man.
Mind you...That was a mentally unstable Sentry that defeated Molecule Man. People like to say that Molecule Man was depowered, but not does Bendis even mentions if Molecule Man was depowered, but also the fact that Molecule Man had his own version of Beyonder( a cosmic cube capable of creating his own universe pretty similar to 616), Zarathos(powerful demon), Set (an elder god), Mephisto(powerful hellord), and Enchantress. So there is no significant proof that he was depowered. But what we should note is whats said after the fight by Moonstone:
But there's even more that backs that statement by Moonstone:
"...since such an overloard could have easily triggered outbrust to remake the world more openly and give us another House of M to deal with"
That's how scary the Sentry really is. The reason being the Sentry processes limitless untapped power that even Ultron couldn't understand:
I mean...Solar based energy that the Sentry uses should be quite easy to identify and even easier since Ultron is pretty advanced, but it wasn't...Nobody could really calculate Sentrys powers.
Which is why during one of his fights with Void, it was stated he could destroy all life on Earth.
Based off this alone, I think the Sentry outclasses Goku in limitless energy/powers and this is why he beats Goku. The Sentry at his full potential>>>>>>>>Goku at his full potential. Super Saiyan God Goku still wasn't enough to defeat Bill and that form IIRC had a time limit. And not even that, he had to get power from everyone else to even get to that form, which made Goku kinda upset. Now...That alone, what does that tell you? Again this is not only how dangerous the Sentry really is, but why he beats SS God Goku...But I'll safe the rest when the debate REALLY gets heated. ;)
The personality of the Sentry may play a part in this fight. The Sentry during Jenkins, who was a stable minded(thus powerful) Sentry was very heroic and didn't want to really be viewed as a God around people. This does not necessarily mean he was afraid of his powers, but was afraid of the huge responsibilities. He had powers of a god, he was able to heal people and what not, but since he didn't want to be seen as a god, we really didn't see most of his powers. But what we do know about the Sentry is that when there is no one really around he is not afraid to use most his powers. In the fight there appears to be no one around and Super Saiyan God Goku is an EXTREMELY powerful opponent. Much stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku who was able to take on FREAKING KID BUU! Freaking Kid Buu who was going around busting planets. When Sentry see's powerful opponents like Goku and no one is around, he will use all he has because he will have to. Case in point being his fight with the Photon...
When Captain America was teleported out the microverse, thats when the Sentry went all at it against the Photon(before they were holding back, I'll touch base on their fight later).
Now pay close attention at the scan I posted below boys and girls. Do you see what is happening? Do you see what I am seeing? The first small panel shows huge amounts of Sentry's power being visible while he is in a microverse, which is subatomic, as you can judge it by the atoms and the molecules. The second small pannel shows their exact position - the position of the microverse, which is near Iron Man's armor. You see Sentry's golden energy being visible in the real universe, while he and Photon are in the Microverse.
It's basically ...
Universe = Microverse (but in microscopic)...Of course we don't know how huge the microverse exactly was, but through the fact that we can see Sentry's power in the regular universe, while he is in a microverse, is pretty freaking incredible and I know this may sound crazy and I may be labeled a fanboy for saying this, but IMO this puts him far above a planet buster.
Even though the Sentry was BFR'ed by Photon, the Sentry still showed us what he was capable of and why he is so scary. And again there is no people around to danger and Super Saiyan God Goku is extremely powerful. When Sentry fought Hulk, though he was in a weak state due to being mentally unstable during the fight. He said "its finally good to let loose": Why? Because the Hulk that Sentry fought(World War Hulk) was not only one of the strongest Hulk incarnations, but a character Sentry can let lose against because he didn't have to worry about killing the character because that character can give Sentry a fight. Now this is SS God Goku! And IMO I think he is WAAAAAAAAAAAY stronger than World War Hulk and so Sentry will use all his powers to defend himself, because he has to against an opponent like Goku.
I think Goku is severely outclassed here. I don't mean to bass DBZ and trust me I love the show, but DBZ characters don't have much feats that put them above characters like the Sentry. The Sentry is easily above 100 tons. The Sentry has fought against people who easily exceed 100 tons...People like Hulk, Thor, Blue Marvel and many others. I haven't seen any DBZ character that touches them in the strength department. But anyways...I know that a Super Saiyan Goku struggled with 40 tons.
Not trying to low ball Goku, but thats completely nothing for the Sentry and Goku had to go Super Saiyan just for 40 tons. Meanwhile the Sentry can easily lift a cruse ship IIRC are around 160,000 tons:
We havent seen any strength feats by a SS God Goku or any other Z-Fighter that equals to that, but maybe you can correct my ignorane.
Now this is debatable, but I think the Sentry is much faster. Goku has instant transmission. Instant transmission...I don't think is really speed. Goku has to think and concentrate on where he's going for instant transmission to work. By the time in which he has processed the thought. Instant transmission is basically teleporting. Teleportation =/= speed. Nightcrawler is a teleporter and yet the Quicksilver is much faster than Kurt. Again not trying to low ball DBZ again, but I never heard/read anything about them being as fast as light or faster than light. For those who don't know...The Sentry is as fast as light or faster.
^^^^Here is an interview which touches base on the scan by the writer himself:
CBR: What exactly happens with the Sentry and the Void in this scene?
Matt Fraction:
Scott and Emma knew they couldn't beat the Sentry, so they had to distract the Void and for a split second Emma does just that. She keeps it within herself long enough for Bob Reynolds to snap to, realize what's happening, and flee. All they needed to do was to buy that half-a-second for the Sentry to take off and he flies into space as fast as he can. He realizes the best thing he can do is get off the battlefield. He goes off at the speed of light and the Void rushes after him to reconnect so they can be whole again.
Source:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22907
Sentry in Uncanny Avengers speedblitzed Thor so fast that he was bending time and space by going so fast, faster than light. But I don't I'm allowed to use Deathseed Sentry feats in this thread.
But anyways some speed feats by Sentry:
Props a collapsing tower at super speed. So fast that he appears everywhere. Even Ms Marvel is impressed.
Yet another amazing speed feat by Sentry. Sentry gets pissed, and the next thing you know, he's near Saturn. Just look at the less panels. He could have reached Saturn in minutes!!! Also by the time he finishes saying "no" he's already near Saturn. He could have been moving at light speed!
Hears Osborn calling him from the other side of the world and flies there in short notice. Very impressive speed feat...
Catches a Skrull high-powered sniper rifle bullet in mid-air shot by the Punisher!
Appears behind the Punisher in seconds!
He flies to Libya to see if there is any problems and then flies back in seconds!
This is yet another amazing speed feat by the Sentry..The X-Men are involved in a fight with the General and Sentry. The General releases multiple missiles, all headed for different targets. Sentry goes after them. Notice how quickly he deactivates the first ones!
IMO the Sentry>Goku in the speed department.
Super Saiyan God Goku is strong and I am not doubting it. But we have not seen much from him and that form still wasn't enough to defeat Bill, not only that but it has a time limit if I'm not mistaking and Goku had to get to that form by getting power from everyone else, heck even Pan while she was in her mother womb. Sentry on the other hand...Has no limit and the writers intended on making him like that. His original writer intended on making him this damn powerful. I didn't even post most of Sentrys other stuff, the other stuff which he can do and easily win this. Now I do admit that Sentry will have trouble with Gokus martial arts. Sentrys fighting skills are not that good compared to Goku's. BUT Sentry wins this because of raw power and raw power alone. He will overwhelm Goku with it. Like I said Sentry at his full potential>>>>>Goku's at his. The Sentry just has much more diverse set of power, like I said I have not even mentioned some them. Again Goku will give Sentry a good fight but Sentry alone is packing too much power. I was too lazy to post his durability/regeneration, telepathy, energy manipulation and others because I was too lazy. :(
But I will once this debate gets HEATED!
Your turn.
Sentry defeating Molecule Man is impressive, but not exactly applicable against Goku, who's superhuman durability should make molecular rearrangement a little bit trickier for Bob to pull off compared to doing it on a human. It's also worth noting that multiple characters throughout the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z series' have molecule manipulation abilities just like Sentry, most notably Majin Buu. Goku himself is unfortunately not one of those characters, but that's okay, because not only are those abilities consistently countered by ki control, but I'm not exaggerating when I say that single power is Bob's only advantage in this fight.
Strength, speed, durability, stamina, endurance, agility, intelligence, skill, training, power, versatility, instincts, literally EVERY aspect relating to direct combat is held firmly in the Super Saiyan's pocket, and while Sentry is definitely trailing close enough behind to make this fight interesting, in the end, he is simply outmatched against the power of a God.
First and foremost I want to discuss the unmatched, raw strength of a Super Saiyan. It's true that Goku doesn't have many lifting feats - why this is such a problem with debaters I will never know. Most of his feats are combat related, I.E. his striking strength is what's going to knock Sentry's block off. The infamous 40 tons feat has a lot more context than what most will admit. First of all, the gravity on King Kai's planet is 10 times that of Earth's, but Goku did the 40 ton feat on Grand Kai's planet, which had a similar makeup to King Kai's, but was the size of an actual planet. We don't know the exact weight of those arm bands, but what's for sure is that they were a helluva lot more than 40 tons. If you want lifting feats, Goku easily supported a weight equivalent to an entire planet in the mass of this solid cube of Katchin, the hardest metal in the universe.
The fact that the Z Sword couldn't even put a scratch in the cube despite having the power of a Kai means that the block is basically more durable than a planet (since all Kais are planet busters), and therefore has just as much mass as one.
But I digress, Goku isn't trying to pick Sentry up and throw him. He's trying to punch him, and it is in that area where the Saiyan truly excels.
As a mere Super Saiyan 1, he had Freeza puking up blood with a single strike, whereas multiple planetary level blasts didn't faze the tyrant.
Vegets gets emotional and puts all his power into one blast powerful enough to have Piccolo freak out over whether the planet can survive or not. Freeza is just like "LOL lookit ma sokker skillz" (rough translation)
He even survived a Spirit Bomb and came out with scratches, despite Goku taking energy from two moonbusters and a planet buster (Gohan, Krillin, Piccolo), in addition to several actual planets and a star.
As if all that isn't enough, Freeza survived an ACTUAL planet literally exploding on top of him, while cut in half with no ki. It's amazing when you look at all that damage and realize; Namek had nothing to do with it. He was already cut in half before the planet blew, and said explosion added no visible damage at all (Namek was also much bigger than Earth as I'll get into below)
To summarize my point, Super Saiyan Goku's punches and kicks did more damage to Freeza's body, than the explosion of a planet did. This is consistent with the power of a planet busting Kai failing to scratch the cube of Katchin that Goku lifted, just in case you doubted that feat. And we're talking base-Super Saiyan 1 Goku. Super Saiyan God on the other hand is... the power of a God.
160,000 ton cruise ship is impressive. Sentry might win in a weight lifting competition at the beach. But Goku's fists and body are enhanced with ki to explosive levels. Even the Kais say they could destroy Freeza with one punch, and Goku was stronger than all of them without even powering up.
Base Goku can completely destroy villains with multiplanet-level durability in one hit, and Super Saiyan Goku is 50 times stronger, let alone Super Saiyan God. I'll be looking forward to some mad durability feats for Sentry. He'll need it to withstand hits from Kakarot.
Just as with strength, Goku's speed shines in combat. Sentry is a quick little minx, making it all the way to Saturn like that, but I see no reaction time. In fact, it's just the opposite, look at the scans - even HE was surprised to be near Saturn! He had no idea what was happening, Sentry might fly at FTL speeds, but he sure doesn't fight at them. If he did then he wouldn't have gotten his face smashed in by the Hulk.
By comparison, Goku's speed feats are all combat related. You want travel speed? Fine, I'll give you travel speed.
Dude is on the other side of the planet and arrives in the time it took Freeza to reel back his next punch. Keep in mind, it took Krillin four days to fly the same distance before his Guru powerup. Now, Krillin is like, freakin mach 80 or something by this point, but I'll lowball as much as I can and say that he's only hypersonic. Mach 5. That makes Namek over three hundred thousand miles in radius (very roughly 368,640 to be exact). Goku covering that distance in an instant is nearly three times the speed of light. But again, I digress - this is just travel speed. Considering this is Pre-Super Saiyan Goku, I think we can agree that Kakarot and Bob are more or less on par in a race when they're both at their best. But the difference between them is, Goku's combat and reaction speed is the same as his travel.
One of my favorite feats revolves around Freeza.
His most powerful attack, the Death Ball, reached Namek's core in a few seconds. I've already been over Namek's size, so we'll say this attack moves at the speed of light.
Meanwhile, Freeza's fastest attack, the Death Beam, is... well, the scans speak for themselves.
Piccolo even referred to the same attack as "a little light" in terms of speed earlier on, and this was 1% power Freeza. Against Super Saiyan Goku, he was already up to 70%.
Goku could even dodge photon beams in base form during the Android Saga (photons are light). A very underrated instance. Proves without a shadow of doubt that Goku has lightspeed reaction time.
Perhaps my absolute favorite feat though, is when Goku famously outraced Freeza's paralyzing light ball the exact instant it exploded into, well, light.
The best part of all these feats is that they're consistent. We have three instances of Goku in his base form either reacting to or straight up outracing light, two of which happened mere minutes after another, and then Super Saiyan Goku treating light speed as a joke. So that's four FTL reaction time feats from Goku, and one or two FTL travel speed feats from Sentry and then a bunch of supersonic ones. As if Sentry didn't have enough issues hitting this guy, let's not forget Goku is the greatest martial artist in the universe and has extensive training in predicting and anticipating his opponent's moves.
Adult Goku was able to fight Yakon in absolute darkness by sensing his movements via the air currents, a technique he learned decades earlier from Mr. Popo.
But Goku was actually learning how to predict movements as early as meeting Korin.
In terms of absolute technique, Goku is actually somewhat basic compared to Batman, Daredevil, etc. What he excels in is adaptability and instincts. That's what makes him unbeatable. Korin didn't actually teach Goku anything; he gave him a goal and the Saiyan figured it out himself. Tao Pai Pai is the most highly regarded mercenary on the planet, who's skills were so advanced that he could kill a Red Ribbon Army general using just his tongue and stomped Bora in hand to hand effortlessly. But after Korin, this is what Goku had to say to him:
Goku uses these skills consistently throughout the series after learning them. Most impressively is against Piccolo, another master martial artist, but no match for Goku in that area.
If he can read all of Piccolo's techniques than he can read all of Bob's. Skilled fighters in DBZ are able to counter this with precise movements; Popo for example said that Kid Goku made a lot of unnecessary movements that gave away his next attack. Sentry unfortunately does not have such training.
Now, this is where Sentry is pretty much unarguably outmatched. Power is what DBZ is all about, those ki blasts are the one thing haters can never take away from them. That microverse feat from Sentry is neat, but Super Saiyan 3 Goku's power was felt across dimensions.
By comparison, I don't think Sentry has any quantifiable feats that paint him as a planet buster, whereas according to Tien, Goku merely powering up put the Earth in danger.
Here's Freeza destroying a planet with 10 times as much mass as Earth at less than 1% of his full power, and yeah it's powerscaling, but unfortunately Goku doesn't like to go around blasting planets, so it's the best we've got. Anyway, here's the summed up rundown of Goku's destructive power:
Base form: Multiplanet buster (powerscaling from Freeza)
Super Saiyan 1: Possibly solar system buster at the very end of the series (powerscaling from Cell and himself)
Super Saiyan 2: Well beyond Solar System buster (powerscaling from Cell)
Super Saiyan 3: Star buster (feats: destroyed a large star with a Kamehameha in the canon Dragon Ball Online)
Super Saiyan God: Galaxy buster (powerscaling from Bills)
If Bob gets hit with a casual ki blast in base form, it'll be like an atom bomb blowing up in his face. A casual ki blast from a Super Saiyan God will be like a supernova.
I think it's amazing how all but one of the feats I've presented thus far have been from a Super Saiyan 1 or base Goku, and the one that wasn't was just a clip of him powering up, and yet the Saiyan is noticeably more powerful than Reynold's already. Sentry gets a lot of hype because he's supposed to be the strongest on Marvel Earth, but Freeza would probably fill that role too if he were in Marvel, and Freeza is like a fly to the power of the Super Saiyan God.
And so it begins.... >:)
I'll reply to the post after I am done watching Battle of Gods(for the third time). What? You think I dont love DBZ? :P
My blood is boiling right now and I am loving it! Cant wait.
Alright...Here I come.
Sentry defeating Molecule Man is impressive, but not exactly applicable against Goku, who's superhuman durability should make molecular rearrangement a little bit trickier for Bob to pull off compared to doing it on a human. It's also worth noting that multiple characters throughout the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z series' have molecule manipulation abilities just like Sentry, most notably Majin Buu. Goku himself is unfortunately not one of those characters, but that's okay, because not only are those abilities consistently countered by ki control, but I'm not exaggerating when I say that single power is Bob's only advantage in this fight.
Aye...Incorrect. First off... No Molecule Man is not even close to being human(well not anymore IIRC), he's basically a cosmic cube now rom getting his powers from Beyonder. Second off...Molecule Man is at Universal and was able to even able to go up against the Beyonder(of course Post-Retcon Beyonder). During Dark Avengers Molecule man was affecting a whole city with his Molecule Manipulations and killing everyone, including the Sentry. From what I've seen the Sentry is easily more durable than Goku and has far better durability feats that put him above Goku's durability. But I'll touch base on that later. The point is Molecule Man was able to affect and kill someone as durable as the Sentry. The Sentry was only able to come back due to being immortal and having Molecule manipulation of his own. During Sentrys fight with Molecule Man, he was matching him with power and then finally overpowered him with ease. Again this was the same Molecule Man who was wrapping cities and killed the Sentry is far more durable than Goku. Goku's durability doesn't mean swat when Sentry implodes him or slowly dissolves him away.
But again he'll most likely use that as his last defense. You're going to have to prove that Goku or any other Z-Fighter has resisted Molecule Manipulation on the level of Sentry's or Molecule man.
As for Majin Buu...His matter manipulation is not on the level of Sentrys or Molecule Mans. For the most part he has only done transmutation to his enemies and never ripped anyone from pieces or made them explode like Molecule Man and Sentry has down. But a more important thing is Majin Buu's matter manipulation is based solely on magic while Sentrys and Molecule Mans molecule manipulation is not. Heck Buu has never been shown to create life just out of nothing like the Sentry has.
Sentrys molecule manipulation>>>>>>>Buu's matter manipulation.
Not only that...But whenever Buu has used matter manipulation on a Z-Fighter no Z-Fighter has ever shown resistance to it, besides Vegito who was said to be one of the strongest Z-Fighters. Vegito was turned into a jawbreaker which showed he is in fact immune to matter manipulation, even though he was still fighting back as a jawbreaker...But.
1. Goku is not Vegito. And if Vegito can be affected by matter manipulation. Vegito who was said to be far stronger than Goku and Vegito. Then Goku can differently be afected by it. And Sentrys powers is way more scarier. Sentry will do much more than just turn people into candy.
2. Again Sentrys not gonna turn him into candy...He's going to make him explode/implode or slowly dissolve him away.
And no that is not the only power Bob has to even defeat Goku. He has much more under his belt that can give him a quick win, but I'll show you in another post.
Strength, speed, durability, stamina, endurance, agility, intelligence, skill, training, power, versatility, instincts, literally EVERY aspect relating to direct combat is held firmly in the Super Saiyan's pocket, and while Sentry is definitely trailing close enough behind to make this fight interesting, in the end, he is simply outmatched against the power of a God.
I disagree with most except skill and training. But we'll see.
First and foremost I want to discuss the unmatched, raw strength of a Super Saiyan. It's true that Goku doesn't have many lifting feats - why this is such a problem with debaters I will never know. Most of his feats are combat related, I.E. his striking strength is what's going to knock Sentry's block off.
With the lifting feat I was really trying to show how strong Sentry is. But you have a point that striking feats mostly matters. And while DBZ characters do have impressive striking feats, I've never seen any striking feats that compares to what Blue Marvel, Hulk, Thor or any other high herald level in Marvel. I doubt Goku would knock out because he doesn't have the strength to do so. I've never seen Goku knock someone into orbit with one blow. Like Blue Marvel did to the Sentry. That was the only time the Sentry was ever KO'ed but he quickly came back and defeated Blue Marvel. And Blue Marvel is no joke himself. His strength and powers are scary and his quite a beast. Again that was the only time Sentry was KO'd and it was really due to be being sucker punched. Here...I'll post the scans.
As you can see in the second scan, the Sentry stops and talks for a moment and then Blue Marvel sucker punches him into orbit.
Hell...The Sentry even states in the second scan:
"I wont let your pride destroy this planet like mines almost did"
That not only is a reference to what happened in his fight against Hulk, but that he was holding back against Blue Marvel. Because in his fight with Hulk he was going all out. All out that he almost killed everyone. So you will have to prove Goku is a powerhouse like Blue Marvel.
Speaking of World War Hulk...That was not Sentry who was KO'ed by Hulk but Bob who was KO'ed by Bruce when they reverted back to their regular selves. That was not a time when the Sentry himself was KO'ed but the host Bob. And the Sentry even wanted to lose that fight. You you want me to explain, I'll explain in HUGE and I mean HUGE details. But digging deeper into World War Hulk. Hulk is obviously stronger than Goku and has more impressive striking power than Goku. And thats fact. Sentry not only fought one of the strongest incarnations of Hulk, but let Hulk nail on his face repeatedly with blows and yet Sentry was still not KO'ed.
And remember this was one of the strongest incarnations. Prior to World War Hulk, the Hulk had striking feats such as:
Here Hulk literally tears a part Nightmares realm...
Wolverine is sent flying from New York to Boston with a single blow.
^^^I do agree Goku is not Wolverine, but still...
A barrier that "only the shattering sound of Black Bolt's voice can penetrate" is broken through by Savage Hulk's fists...
Here's Hulk punching with enough force to light up a dimension.
Savage Hulk literally punches through a time storm (one that even Kang's time machine cannot penetrate) and rends apart the space-time continuum enough for Kang to travel through.
Again all those instances are PRIOR to the World War Hulk story arc. World War Hulk was stated many time to be on of the strongest Hulk incarnations and yet Sentry was matching him blow for blow. And that was him at his weakest, because he was mentally unstable. He was only knocked out when he reverted back to Bob(host) and Hulk back to Bruce.
So you will have to show if Goku's striking power is on the same level of those two.
The infamous 40 tons feat has a lot more context than what most will admit. First of all, the gravity on King Kai's planet is 10 times that of Earth's, but Goku did the 40 ton feat on Grand Kai's planet, which had a similar makeup to King Kai's, but was the size of an actual planet. We don't know the exact weight of those arm bands, but what's for sure is that they were a helluva lot more than 40 tons. If you want lifting feats, Goku easily supported a weight equivalent to an entire planet in the mass of this solid cube of Katchin, the hardest metal in the universe.
The fact that the Z Sword couldn't even put a scratch in the cube despite having the power of a Kai means that the block is basically more durable than a planet (since all Kais are planet busters), and therefore has just as much mass as one.
1. But in the scan King Kai said 40 tons. But your right about KK planets gravity. But I'm not going to argue since striking feats matter.
2. About the cube...Hardest/durability=/=weight.
3. The Katchin was never stated to be as heavy as a planet in the show or else they would have said so. So far thats speculation if I am reading you right.
4. I'm not to sure about Kais being planet busters, since they never shown to be one. But thats another argument.
5. It would have been more impressive if Goku actually shattered it, instead of lifted it. Since it was stated to be the hardest object in the universe. Their are some people in comics like Superman who have pulled planets, but they never been shown to actually shatter a planet with physical blows.
As a mere Super Saiyan 1, he had Freeza puking up blood with a single strike, whereas multiple planetary level blasts didn't faze the tyrant.
Energy blast=/=physical attacks. Just letting you know that. Thor can take huge blast from people like the Celestials who btw are IMO a bit below Galactus level. Yet in another instance Thor can be outright hurt or even KO'ed by a hard physical hit from the Hulk. Just saying planet busting isn't really a huge feat in Marvel or DC. Because many planet busters attacks can be tanked by people lower than them or can their asses handed to them by people lessor than them.
And I doubt Sentry will be puking up blood when he was dishing it out with World War Hulk, who from what I've seen is physically stronger than Goku. Also the Sentry has never been Ko'ed by energy blasts.
Vegets gets emotional and puts all his power into one blast powerful enough to have Piccolo freak out over whether the planet can survive or not. Freeza is just like "LOL lookit ma sokker skillz" (rough translation)
Impressive I must say. But this is touching base on your argument about Frieza surviving a planet exploding, being cut and the mecha Frieza video...The thing is...Well...Frieza's durability is pretty inconsistent and I mean inconsistent. One minute he is surviving a planet exploding like you stated and then the next he being cut up in many pieces by Future Trunks.
Mind you...They never state if the sword was enhanced. Or one can argue that Trunks Ki enhanced the sword. But still if Frieza can survive a planet exploding than why can't a mecha Frieza survive a mere sword? And again back to planet busting...Again planet busting is really no big deal in DC and Marvel like I said before. BUT...Many high level herald characters in Marvel like Thor, Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, Drax, Morg,etc have all tanked planet busting explosion like a piece of cake. Meanwhile we've never seen Z-Fighters such as Goku do so. Using your logic with Goku making Frieza puke blood. Thor tanked a nova(which is far worse than a planet exploding).
Yet Sentry was able to make Thor bleed with one punch.
See where I am going with this? Surviving exploding or busting a planet means very little in comics, since planet busters can be taken down by lesser people. Heck Binary who I doubt is even Herald level can one shot bust a planet.
During Sentrys fight with the Collector, he was shown to be her superior when she couldnt even take on the Collector, but the Sentry could(I'll get on his fight with the Collector later on).
But based off Sentrys abilities/potential and his recent showings of dominating a high level character like Thor three times in a row. He may be above Herald level and some people on comicvine agree from all the Sentry threads that were going around. That may be speculation, but still planet busting or surviving a planet exploding I doubt the Sentry couldn't replicate based on what we have seen from him. As a for durability. The Sentry annihilates both Goku and Frieza when it comes to nigh invulnerability. I remember hearing Goku saying theres nothing in the universe stronger than the sun. No Z-Fighter/DBZ character has ever survived being in the sun ever. Meanwhile the Sentry not only can get power from the sun but the sun does nothing to him when he goes in and out of it. He's completely unfazed.
That alone should put the Sentry above Goku when it comes to durability.
NOTE: CONTINUING ARGUMENT IN NEXT POST. NOBODY POST UNTIL MY SECOND POST IS POSTED.
Continued:
160,000 ton cruise ship is impressive. Sentry might win in a weight lifting competition at the beach.
I agree. Striking feats are more important. But heres a good one.
Sentry punches a gigantic crater into the ground, which overshadows even the size of the Helicarrier:
Impressive striking feat imo. But this next one is not really a striking feat but it is impressive nonetheless. Here the Sentry overpowers Terrax who is herald level with just one hand.
Heres how the writer describes the instance.
Next he breaks Terrax axe in half!
Terrax axe which SLICES PLANETS IN TWO! Like where it did here.
Yeah thats pretty darn impressive. Not a striking feat but shows how strong the Sentry is.
But Goku's fists and body are enhanced with ki to explosive levels. Even the Kais say they could destroy Freeza with one punch, and Goku was stronger than all of them without even powering up.
Hmmm...Speaking of ki. Goku enhancing his striking power from his ki seems to work similar to the way how Iron Fist enhances his attacks with chi. To me Goku and Iron Fist are very similar, but Goku being stronger.
When Iron Fist enhances his attacks with chi he can destroy, large ships, mechs, speeding electromagnetic trains and even a large helicarrier.
And yet his striking power is still not on the level Sentrys, Hulks or Blue Marvel. Yet his abilities with chi works similar to Goku's abilities with Ki. Of course Goku is obviously stronger. But their abilities work similarly and and we have not seen Goku display the same level of striking power on Hulks or Blue Marvels level. So I doubt Goku would easily kill Sentry with one punch like he can do with Frieza. And like I said again Frieza's durability is VERY INCONSISTENT. Future Trucks who was weaker than Goku sliced Frieza up with his sword. Thats not happening with the Sentry. I can tell you that.
As for mad durability feats from Sentry. Show me ANY and I mean ANY Z-Fighter surviving in a sun and is unharmed/unfazed. :D :D :D
HE was surprised to be near Saturn! He had no idea what was happening, Sentry might fly at FTL speeds, but he sure doesn't fight at them. If he did then he wouldn't have gotten his face smashed in by the Hulk.
Thats because he has having a mental breakdown from the Void. :P
As for Hulk, that wasn't Sentry at his Strongest(stable minded) and he wanted to lose because he was losing control of his powers thats why he let Hulk hit him. Again I'll explain in HUGE repeat HUGE details if you want me to.
Dude is on the other side of the planet and arrives in the time it took Freeza to reel back his next punch. Keep in mind, it took Krillin four days to fly the same distance before his Guru powerup. Now, Krillin is like, freakin mach 80 or something by this point, but I'll lowball as much as I can and say that he's only hypersonic. Mach 5. That makes Namek over three hundred thousand miles in radius (very roughly 368,640 to be exact). Goku covering that distance in an instant is nearly three times the speed of light. But again, I digress - this is just travel speed. Considering this is Pre-Super Saiyan Goku, I think we can agree that Kakarot and Bob are more or less on par in a race when they're both at their best. But the difference between them is, Goku's combat and reaction speed is the same as his travel.
I doubt Sentry couldn't replicate the same thing. But can you show me where its officially stated that Goku is faster than light. Some people say he is, but I have not seen any proof. I don't care it can be from a handbook, statement, or Toriyama. I just want to see where it is official stated.
Also you asked for reaction time, here you go:
Sentry catches a bullet that was fired point blank near a the doctors head.
Sentry saves a bunch of people falling from a collapsing tower.
I do agree that Goku's combat may be a problem. But the Sentry does not have to take down the Sentry using combat. Again he is the more diverse in powersets of the two. He has more ways that doesn't even include death to take down Goku. But his reaction speed is good enough to keep up with Goku combat speed.
His most powerful attack, the Death Ball, reached Namek's core in a few seconds. I've already been over Namek's size, so we'll say this attack moves at the speed of light.
Yeah Goku is not Frieza and he doesnt use the deathball, thats apart of Frieza's abilities. So I don't get the point of posting that video to be honest since Goku doesnt use that attack. And also we don't know if it was going into the core at the speed of light because nothing states it does.
Meanwhile, Freeza's fastest attack, the Death Beam, is... well, the scans speak for themselves.
Impressive speed reaction.
Goku could even dodge photon beams in base form during the Android Saga (photons are light). A very underrated instance. Proves without a shadow of doubt that Goku has lightspeed reaction time.
I'm not sure if the scan is showing lightspeed reactions. I'm pretty sure the Sentry could replicate the same thing.
The best part of all these feats is that they're consistent. We have three instances of Goku in his base form either reacting to or straight up outracing light, two of which happened mere minutes after another, and then Super Saiyan Goku treating light speed as a joke. So that's four FTL reaction time feats from Goku, and one or two FTL travel speed feats from Sentry and then a bunch of supersonic ones. As if Sentry didn't have enough issues hitting this guy, let's not forget Goku is the greatest martial artist in the universe and has extensive training in predicting and anticipating his opponent's moves.
Again where is it specifically stated that Goku is FTL. Because I have not seen anywhere that specifically states that. And are you saying Goku was outracing something that was faster than light? Can I have a can please which specifically states so? :)
And yes Goku outclasses the Sentry in Martial arts/fighting. I would be an idiot to try and argue otherwise. But like I said the Sentry doesn't need H2H to beat Goku since he has other ways. One of them being telepathy. And also Goku really has no way of putting Sentry down, since the Sentry is immortal and he has only been knocked out once by someone who is superior to Goku in strength/striking in every way.
Like I said. The Sentry has many ways to defeat Goku without entering H2H. When he's sees Goku martial arts he wont waste his time and try to end the fight quickly. And with telepathy, the Sentry doesn't even have to kill Goku. Goku has not shown defense against high level telepaths like the Sentry. The Sentrys telepathy has been stated to be above most Earths telepaths and that includes Xavier, which Xavier even admitted. Not only that put its stated many times that the Sentrys mind is very hard to penetrate, but not only that but he was able to get into Hulks mind and Hulks mind has been noted by many telepaths to penetrate due to the Hulks brutish nature but yet the Sentry still was able to get inside his mind.
But thats not the point. The Sentry is a very dangerous telepath. His own powers were used to wipe out everyones memories on Earth. That included Inhumans on the moon and even Omega level mutants.
Sentry did it using his own powers. Not this is a stable minded Sentry using all his powers and now he knows how to use telepathy very effectively. The Sentry can easily mindrape Gokum since Goku has not shown resistance to mindrape on the level that the Sentry can do. But lets look at the Sentry using telepathy offensively.
Here the Sentry mind-rapes someone telepathically / empathically called Super Adaptoid.
Sorry for using Deathseed Sentry, but I want to show more proof that the Sentry can mindrape people offensively since its apart of his abilities. Here he does it to the wasp.
Again this is just another way on how the Sentry can win this and quickly.
Now, this is where Sentry is pretty much unarguably outmatched. Power is what DBZ is all about, those ki blasts are the one thing haters can never take away from them. That microverse feat from Sentry is neat, but Super Saiyan 3 Goku's power was felt across dimensions.
I think I have to show you again just how much raw power the Sentry is packing. :) :)
Goku's powerlevel being felt across dimensions is impressive. But cant the Kai's sense it due to them being connected to Goku? From the scan and video. It seems it was mostly felt on Earth and the other two Kais dimensions. I'm not trying to lowball, just curious.
Anyways back to raw power of the Sentry. Again it was stated twice and even after his fight with Molecule Man that a full energy outburst from the Sentry can remake worlds similar to what happened with Scarlet Witch with the House of M. Remember that...Again thats how scary the Sentry is.
Heck even Dr Strange who has a lot of wisdom stated that the return of the Sentry and the Void could mean the end of the universe.
Also the professor, who created the Super Serum, which gave Sentry his powers, also states that Sentry's powers are limitless; that he is omnipotentand immortal.
Then we have narration says that Sentry is bigger than god and that the power of the universe is his.
I know most of these are just statements/hyperbole, but they point to something and that the Sentry has way too much power for Goku and his power/energy is LIMITLESS, while Goku has NEVER shown to have limitless power since he has shown to have a limit. The Sentry will outlast Goku in this fight. But more importantly...Lets look at the examples on how Sentry has limitless power.
The Absorbing Man who is pretty powerful absorbed the power of many heros including Thor and even Odin who is skyfather and a galaxy buster. When Absorbing Man tries to absorb the Sentry's power. The Sentry not only LETS HIM, but OVERLOADS him.
Absorbing man even recalls that experience.
Again this is the guy who has absorbed powers from Odin as well as power of a cosmic cube. And yet the Sentry overloaded him. Now thats scary. And this is a stable minded Sentry who is powerful which is even more scarier.
It gets even more scarier when you have a unstable Sentry stalemating with the Collective. The Collective who had the power of 50 different mutants and everyone was helpless against including Binary who is a planet buster. Yet when Sentry fought, they stalemated and not only that destroyed a moon in process.
And again mind you. This was a mentally ill Sentry thus weaker Sentry. Before the fight the Sentry was having internal struggles and Cap had to yell at him to get his butt off the bed and fight. But this Sentry that Goku is fighting is not the one that the Collective fought but a more powerful and smarter one who can use all his powers. Goku's going to have to do something quick to put the Sentry down. If not the Sentry can just mindrape him or make him explode by Molecule Manipulation if the fight gets out of hand.
By comparison, I don't think Sentry has any quantifiable feats that paint him as a planet buster, whereas according to Tien, Goku merely powering up put the Earth in danger.
lol...Goku powering up put the Earth in danger? I raise you the Sentry fighting Photon unleashing energies and destroying planets while holding back!
The Sentry in one of his weaker states put all life on Earth in danger when he was fighting Hulk. And you say he is not qualified for planet busting level? O_o
Here's Freeza destroying a planet with 10 times as much mass as Earth at less than 1% of his full power, and yeah it's powerscaling, but unfortunately Goku doesn't like to go around blasting planets, so it's the best we've got. Anyway, here's the summed up rundown of Goku's destructive power:
Base form: Multiplanet buster (powerscaling from Freeza)
Super Saiyan 1: Possibly solar system buster at the very end of the series (powerscaling from Cell and himself)
Super Saiyan 2: Well beyond Solar System buster (powerscaling from Cell)
Super Saiyan 3: Star buster (feats: destroyed a large star with a Kamehameha in the canon Dragon Ball Online)
Super Saiyan God: Galaxy buster (powerscaling from Bills)
Yeah...And theres a problem with that.
1. When has base form Goku been stated or has shown to be a MULTI-planet buster? That is pure speculation.
2. Not only was Goku weaker than Cell(which is why he needed Goku to defeat him), but neither he nor Cell has shown to be a Solar System buster. And I remember Cell saying he was GATHERING energy to destroy the Solar System. If Goku was that powerful he would have survived Cells bomb.
3. There is no proof of that, unless you show me statements, even by the Author of the manga that Super Saiyan 2 are capable Solar System busters. Gohan when he first turned to Super Saiyan 2 never showed that he can bust a solar system or hinted that he can or any other Super Saiyan 2 Saiyans.
4. Classic Drax the Destroyer destroyed a star by physical force by ripping it. And I bet whole heartily that the Sentry is above him based on the Sentrys abilities. Though some might disagree, but we do know that Classic Drax was herald level like Sentry and Thor. Drax always fought evenly with Thor. While Sentry/Void overpowered Thor three times.
5. I wouldn't put to much faith into Bill being a Galaxy buster and I definitely wouldn't Super Saiyan God Goku since he was still no match for Bill.
But anyways onto Bills. The only statement that Bill can destroy a Galaxy is from Whis who states he "When he is pissed he is known for making galaxies disappear instantly" is a hyperbole. Like saying that the Sentry has the power of a million exploding suns or that he is omnipotent. Why?
1. The word instantly. And the fact that Whis was most likely using figure of speech. And also to destroy a galaxy instantly you would not only have to have a large attack, but one shot bust a galaxy like this:
Notice how the Galaxy is completely gone.
2. When he fought Super Saiyan God Goku, he was pissed(since Goku was landing many hits and IIRC Bills was using 70% of his power) and yet no Galaxy disappeared.
But more importantly...The translation was very inaccurate and incorrect. Which is not my opinion but everyone who has seen the movie, especially those who speak Japanese. What Whis really said was Solar System and not Galaxy and many people around the net who speak Japanese like the known DBZ translator herms stated so. Heck this is like what happened with the claim about Broly busting a galaxy, faulty translation.
But anywhere here are examples of the faulty translation.
Then we have this where King Kais planet is stated to be a star...
Bills is a Star buster/Solar System buster at best. I wouldn't put to much hope into Bills being a Galaxy buster, but you do then thats you. As for Super Saiyan God Goku, he has not shown to be on that level, unless you show me that he is.
If Bob gets hit with a casual ki blast in base form, it'll be like an atom bomb blowing up in his face. A casual ki blast from a Super Saiyan God will be like a supernova.
1. lol...The Sentry eats Nuclear explosions for breakfast.
Here the Sentry survives a Nuclear explosion point blank with only his costume being messed up.
Here his Doctor tells Sentry that there is a thermonuclear device implanted in his stomach. Basically, if he tells him a certain word order (the secret to Sentry's origin), the device will blow. Fury activates it, and tells Sentry to get the Doc the hell away from Earth.
Sentry picks up the dock and begins to fly towards the upper atmosphere.
The thermonuclear bomb blows up, and Sentry is not even affected.
2. More speculations. Super Saiyan Goku never hinted he can create a blast such as a supernova, if so show me because I've seen the movie and he did not indicate that he can. Even if Goku can, it would just most likely power the Sentry sense the Sentry gets most of his energy from solar power. Also if he was even harmed. He would reformed since he stated before he became the Deathseed that he can regenerate from even a Atom.
So none of Goku's energy attacks would really work on him. He has better durability feats than Goku being able to survive in a sun, while no Z-Fighters such as Goku has. Also a supernova would most likely kill Goku, since Goku and the other Z-Fighters have hinted that planet busting attacks can kill them.
I'm not going to put to much faith into this argument, but I just want to point this out. Can the Sentry absorb Goku's Ki energy? I'm not sure, but maybe based off his fight with Photon.
The narration states that the Sentry can draw energy from anywhere and everywhere(I believe thats where the power of million exploding suns comes from). Does this include Goku's ki energy? Who knows? The Sentry has limitless power and is a energy manipulator. It has been stated that the Sentry can absorb energy. He even was powerful enough to be able to absorb/contain the cosmic cube.
But who knows? This is an argument that I'm not gonna put much faith into. But remember its been stated that the Sentry can draw energy from anywhere and everywhere. So Goku's ki energy may be one.
All I'm getting from your post is a lot of low balling and misinformation, unfortunately. You're really down playing all of Goku's feats, and the Sentry feats you used to counter are quite clearly not in the same league. I stick by my original assessment, that Goku is stronger, quicker, tougher, smarter, etc, whereas Sentry's only advantages lay in his unique abilities like molecule manipulation and telepathy.
Before I try and counter your points, I'm going to post my actual strategy right here from the get-go. That way things will be more clean, and hopefully it will help everyone understand my reasoning more clearly once I begin explaining. Alright, now in my opinion, it seems pretty obvious to me that there's a large physical difference between Goku and Sentry, with Goku coming out superior in nearly every category. The most glaring difference between the two though, is speed. Sentry's reaction time (or lack thereof) gives me no doubt that Goku can, for all intents and purposes, speedblitz him. That's not out of character for him at all, every time he faces a weaker opponent, they get speedblitzed.
Goku has even blitzed Krillin during the 22 World Martial Arts Tournament. He's blitzed Tambourine and all the other Piccolo children, he's blitzed King Chappa, he's blitzed Android 19, he's blitzed Jeice and Burter at the same time - point is, Goku never holds back his speed. You're either strong enough to keep up, or you're not and this happens.
Sentry unfortunately, falls under the "not" category.
Even if they were of equal speed, Sentry would never lay a finger on Goku when he is known as the greatest martial artist in the universe. I mean I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but how do Batman, Daredevil, Captain America, and most other peak humans fight against foes way outside their weight class? By using technique to divert and parry hits they otherwise can not take. Just because Goku is more powerful than them doesn't mean the same doesn't apply to him.
Goku fights with Kid Buu for an extended period of time at Super Saiyan 2. In terms of raw power, Kid Buu was on par with Super Saiyan 3, making him a whopping TEN TIMES more powerful than Super Saiyan 2, yet Goku battles him on even ground.
Likewise, 10 years later Goku battled Uub in base form. It's true that he would be a lot more powerful at this point, but as you can see by Goku's reaction in the opening of the fight when he tried to block the tribal boys attack, he was still grossly outmatched.
Goku was even able to briefly overwhelm Freeza with his martial arts skill. The two were on par when Freeza was at 1% power; here he's at 50%, and even though the advantage was very brief, you have to consider the massive power difference.
All of these fights were against foes several times stronger than Goku. Yet he was perfectly capable of blocking, countering, and parrying almost all of their attacks.
One of my favorites comes from the movie "World's Strongest", where Goku takes on three opponents of roughly equal or greater stats to himself all at the same time, and none of them can land a single finger on him.
Just for the record, Goku can also dance around attacks from other martial artists as well.
Chi Chi is the daughter of Ox King and an EXTREMELY talented martial artist, and also currently the most powerful woman on Earth. Goku's skill dwarfs her's.
There's the famous Goku vs Trunks scene where Goku effortlessly blocks Trunks' best slashes with just his finger. And no, contrary to common misconception, Goku was not stronger than Trunks at this point. They're implied to be equal; considering how easily Trunks dealt with Mecha Freeza I'd say he might have been faster.
Anyway my point is, if none of these fighters can lay a hand on Goku, what makes you think Sentry can? If anyone would just think about it, they'll realize it's impossible. Sentry is:
So how is Sentry going to land any hits? All things considered, I can easily see this fight as going down similarly to Goku's fight with Pamput, that being the Saiyan diverts his opponent's sloppy attack (in this case Pamput is a much better fighter than Sentry, but I digress) while simultaneously giving himself an opening to attack bodily weak points.
I'm not saying Goku will beat Sentry with as much ease as he did Pamput, just that their actual battle will follow a similar pattern to this one.
In the end, Sentry's strength won't matter because he won't be able to put it to use. What about Goku's strength though? Sentry isn't durable enough to withstand a barrage of precision strikes to all his bodily weak points. Goku isn't much of a pressure point guy, but he knows how to attack the body's weak points, the spots that make your eyes water and sends jolts to your groin and every sensitive spot on your body - the heart, the neck, the diaphragm - and when these hits are backed up by the strength to shatter planets (proven by his rupturing of Freeza's organs and causing internal bleeding when a planet exploding could not do the same) Sentry will be feeling the pain. His durability isn't anything major to overcome, that sun feat is iffy since that's where Sentry gets all his power from. It's like if I used Namor surviving the ocean's depths as a feat.
Now that that's out of the way, I'll get to replying to your individual points next. Goes without saying - don't reply until then :D
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