@the_red_viper: I want to, but I already know every spoiler there is so it's not gonna be as fun.
Yeah I will.
CaV: The Hound (The Red Viper) V.S. Hit-Girl (Major Hellstorm). Voting Closed.
Round 4: closing arguments and summary.
As I said, I will respond to your last rebuttal without posting new feats and all that, I will just argue against your counters using feats and showings that were already used by both of us and providing my perspective and interpretation of all of this. I will also not address everything you said, only what I feel that has to be addressed.
Then she will take it from him using her speed for knives.
She will have to throw her knives accurately enough to bother him. No feats of knife-throwing accuracy for her to suggest she is capable of that.
The people he dodged don't seem to be on Mindy's level, this provds that in character Sandor would try to dodge but nothing to show he can dodge.
They don't seem to be in Mindy's level of what, speed? Quickness? Agility? Martial skill? Yeah probably, but it's not like Mindy is a speedster, she isn't fast enough to blitz people. Dodging a strike from her is probably harder than dodging a strike from an average man. I never said Sandor could dodge her all day long but judging by how easily he dodged all the people in my GIFs, he could dodge some of her strikes at least, while countering with his own.
Nothing to prove Russia is that much slower than Hit Girl either, since she has very little feats but has shown to be able to dodge Hit Girl and beat on her.
Well she did get tagged by Hit Girl more than once and relied more on blocking than actual dodging. She is definitely slower than Mindy, but nothing suggests she's faster than Sandor.
If he dodges the knife that would take him off Mindy for 1 second and that's the point. Likenyou've shown Sandor likes dodging and can dodge a knife so I think he would dodge the knife dather than tank it.
To be fair the only blows that he dodged were aimed at his head which was exposed and unprotected in all of those fights (except from the first one, but in this one he was fighting an enemy with a mace which is a heavy blunt weapon, so regardless of helmet you do NOT wanna get hit by that thing). He is well aware that his armor can keep him safe from any knife-throw that isn't perfectly aimed at his face through the visor, so there's no reason to think that he will just dodge all the time.
As I said him landing a punch on her seems way harder than landing a sword plus she can counter it.
Not if she's close enough to try and knock his helmet off.
I don't see the bone on that limb. And besides the Katana is more dangerous a a cutting tool than a longsword as you can see in this clip (4:41) it was just made to slice through things.
They actually mention the bone being there. Right after the cut (2:24), the other guy says "Look how big that bone is" and then the narrator says "James's katana cuts clean through Porky's bone!" Also if you rewind the video a bit (2:05) he explains that pig bones are thicker than human bones. By the way, they used pork because pigs' tissues best resemble human tissue throughout the animal kingdom. Anyway my point with this was that cutting through limbs doesn't require much strength, but it does require a sharp blade like Mindy's. Her blades are even curved so that indicates they're designed especially for slicing and cutting. Which means that Hit Girl isn't that strong after all.
This sword hybrid which was designed to have better cutting power than a normal sword (2:42) could not cut through a slab of ribs in one go despite the user hitting it with a full swing (Hit Girl can cut legs with quick swings) and (1:55) got stoped by a cow's skull. You can see them cutting through the spine and pure meat (as like in your example) just fine but they are easy to cut, unlike the femur which is the strongest bone in the body which I showed Mindy cutting with ease. This isn't just the sword, it requires skill and strength too.
Cows have thicker tissues than humans by a large margin, which is why pork is usually used for such tests. A cow's ribs/skull would definitely be far stronger than any human limb, including the femur. Bulls literally use their heads as weapons, lol.
Mother Russia a superhuman (yeah I know Sandor is just as strong but both are superhuman) who fits your desciption was beaten by Mindy and without BS in the comics. Plus the MMA fighter, Black Death got his hand broken by Mindy with ease (in the opener, killed a man with his finger). Oh yeah and she can completely two leg smash bones with a kick, so yeah way stronger than a knight.
She was only beaten by Mindy after she was distracted though (in the comics) or when Mindy got a huge amp (in the movie). Before that she was completely helpless against her.
And breaking bones with a drop-kick is very impressive for a girl but it isn't some superhuman feat that suggests that she's stronger than a grown man, let alone a knight.
I doubt normal blades can do it repeatedly without getting blunt. Anyway, in the movie version of the Rasul fight Hit Girl is shown to be able to cut through a metal lamp post and a door at least coated in metal (you can see it has a metalic design and should at least be thick enough to be sound proof) which I hightly doubt normal blades can do especially with ease. This is also more evidence for Hit Girl being strong than a knight.
Well there are actually metals, such as Damascus Steel that are famous for keeping their edge. Either way, cutting through a lamp post (which is probably plastic) and a metal door (for all we know it could have been made of softer metals like iron or aluminium) don't prove much. Armor is made of thick, hardened steel, specially tampered to withstand cutting and piercing.
I think I have already proven otherwise. I may be wrong on the strength it takes to cut a limb but the clip you showed doesn't really show otherwise.
On the contrary, the man in that clip (who is just an ordinary Joe, not a warrior who trained day in and day out since childhood) cut through pork with ease, although its bone was tougher than a human's.
Because it is a famous form of armor which many martial arts that use swords have been taught to bypass. Plus why would knowledge on torture (not interogation) or action moives be useful? Why would Big Daddy teach her those and not the basics of plate armor?
Because medieval plate armor has not been used in war (or anywhere else) for the last few centuries, lol. Learning about it would be completely useless and impractical for her. Everything else he had taught her is at least somewhat relevant for present day. Plate armor isn't.
Because he is a pit fighter, pit fighters don't deal with armor that much (if your clip is anything to go by) and like you said are never used in the books.
You miss the point of me mentioning Hit Girl's knowledge here and I'd like to clear up the reason I brought it up. It was only to show the range of her knowledge not things she will use in battle.
Is Hit-Girl used to fight opponents with plate armor then?
But I am pretty sure both have gaps for the joints. Mindy's modern armor is just a vest but full body armor today still have joint weakness.
Not really, modern day armor doesn't cover nearly as much as medieval plate.
It may be speculation, but it is a highly probable one that is backed by how Mindy and Big Daddy act.
Even if it was highly probable (and it isn't), it's still just guesswork. Not good enough.
Well, compared to Mindy (who is 10-16) Sandor is old and slow.
That's actually untrue. He is 30 years old, in his prime. Jorah is closer to 50. The Hound is actually younger than Frank (judging by the fact that Frank has a son in high-school), and Frank schooled Hit-Girl nonetheless.
Well, most of the time (from what I have seen) in GoT when there is a street/no rules (which is a majority of fights) fight one or both of the fighters are missing a helmet or armor (in fights where both fighters wear full armor they are usually honour bound or in front of royalty) for example when The Hound fought his brother or when he fought Brienne, both times he was helmetless. Or fights like Viper vs Mountain where again they were helmetless. So it happening so only once or a few times is not highly unlikely. Plus Sandor's helmet, again is easier to remove than others because of the open snout.
Actually the one and only time in the show where someone lost a helmet in a fight is the Mountain, after the Red Viper knocked it off, and he did it from behind. Regardless, even in jousting, where people get knocked off horses at high speeds and fall hard to the ground, helmets never get knocked off - and this is true for both the show and the books. I only mentioned Jaime's joust because it's the only one where the helmet is specifically mentioned, but it's true for every single other joust in the show and/or in the books.
Now I know both Jamie and Sandor were Kingsguard but I have a hard time beliveing that Jamie who is uber rich, would have armor of the same quality as Sandor's. If you take a look at Jamie's armor you can see that it is decorated and it has colour, it has goldm black and red meanwhile if you look at Sandor's armor (in the OP) it has none of that, it doesn't even seem to have a full metal breast plate (looks like leather strips with metal buttons). So yeah, I would say his brother's armor (which looks very much like Sandor's) even if it is from the show, is a much better source than Jamie's. On top of this I have watched a video of armor being placed on a knight and the helemt isn't fastened and again here in an armor that is actually used for recreation so it is legit. If you think about it it wouldn't really make sense for knights to fasten their armor, cause it is fitted to their head making it near impossible to be knocked off, they also barely have any openings in it especially one that a fist can fit through, unlike Sandor who has a huge opening (I mean just look at it, lol).
OK... where to begin, lol. First of all, Kingsguard armor is exclusive to the Kingsguard, and each member of the Kingsguard has the exact same set of armor. Jaime's armor in that picture is Lannister armor and this picture is from a scene that took place after Jaime was dismissed from the Kingsguard. Also, it is true that Jaime is rich, but the Hound is (was) Prince (and later King) Joffrey's personal bodyguard. It would be fallacious to think that his set of armor would not be as good as any in the realm. Regarding Sandor's armor in the show, I already talked about that in my opener. It's not plate armor, like he has in the books. They just gave him this set of armor in the show because it has a unique look that distinguishes him from everyone else. One way or another, as I said, the show is hardly a credible source for the capabilities of plate armor. Like in the pit fight with Jorah that I posted in a previous post, the 2nd man that he fights pierces his armor with a rapier, just like the one that Arya used to try and stab the Hound with and failed (even though his armor in the show isn't even plate). The show is unreliable and inconsistent with armor; the books are reliable and consistent.
Anyway, why would Gregor's armor be a better example for Sandor's armor? In the show, Gregor didn't even have a gorget (neck-piece) like Sandor does. I mentioned the gorget when you first suggested knocking his helmet off, and you kinda ignored it. Look at the 3rd GIF from my first post, Sandor's helm is connected to his gorget and it will make his helm extremely hard to knock off (and makes twisting it around like you also suggested quite impossible). The suits of armor in your videos don't even have gorgets, lol.
Regarding his visor, it's really not huge. Again if you look at the 3rd GIF from my opener, where the Hound is seen opening his visor, you can see that the opening is like 3-4 fingers wide (which means it's around 3-4 square cm), and it also has the "fangs" that can provide an extra layer of protection against throwing knives and such.
Bottom line, regarding all the knocking-off-the-helmet idea, it falls under this pretty much:
Only his punches, she would be inside the rande of his kicks, but his kicks would be too slow and cumbersome.
Not really. In the fight where he was felled to the floor that I posted above, he kicks people and it isn't at all cumbersome. I won't post it here because it's arguably like using a new feat (although I did use parts of this fight in my previous posts, by the way it's also the show's counterpart for his fight at the inn when he dodged the throwing knife, although it happened differently). I will post a link to this fight in another context later though.
Not exactly, she woukd be inside the range of the sword making it akward to use and out of his fist's range, since a GoT wiki said greatswords (what Sandor typically uses) are around 1.5 meters long meanwhile Sandor's arm (if he is 2 meters tall) should at the very least less be half of his height so less than one meter tall, but Sandor is holding the sword so it has a range of 2 meters (at least) so if she is an inch inside the 2 meter range she would be akward to hit but still be too far for the arms (Ithink). From that disance she can of course reach Sandor's head with her sword.
He's not really using a greatsword, more like a bastard sword. But that doesn't matter, as long as she is within the reach of the blade (which is the better part of those 1.5 meters or however long it really is), she is within range of getting cleaved in half.
Epic, but he was clearly at a disadvantage, being tagged by those men when normally he can dodge.
Well context matters here. He was alone, surrounded by at least 3 men (keyword being surrounded, which means that no matter where he was facing there was at least one person behind him). Here's the full scene (as I said that I will show you). It's marked to start at the relevant bit, to show he's surrounded.
But it is heavy which slows you down even if you can move normally.
It doesn't really slow you down, it just fatigues you more than fighting without armor, which only matters when a fight goes on long enough.
And how does Sandor stop her from getting in the inside when she has superior agility and he has no shield? I mean one moment she is a room away from Hit Girl and the next you're flat on your butt.
Yeah, like that guy in your GIF who was literally just standing there, not even looking at Mindy?
Because the camera moved with her, if you so it in realnlife it would be a blur, plus I am not sure if Chole can really throw a knife or if it's special effects (making it untrustworthy).
Be that as it may, he dodged a knife-throw, that came by surprise, from close range, while he's drunk. That's good enough.
Pretty sure that GIF less than 3 seconds.
It was exactly 3 seconds, lol. I actually created that GIF with this GIF creator. I used it for all the GIFs in this debate actually, and whenever else I need GIFs. Hope it also helps you in future debates, by the way!
Not if it's at the face hole.
Visor*. =)
Even if she misses if she hits anywhere hear the face he will instictively dodge which Mindy can use as a distraction or she can spam the knives and tag him in the face once the helmet is off or even before that.
Yeah but dodging a small knife doesn't mean dolphin-diving sideways or anything, lol. He can just tilt his head a little and that's it. No big deal, it's nothing that should hamper him all that much.
She hit a guys crotch which is impressive, plus with a gun she can score 3 headshots in a row.
Not really impressive... it wasn't as small a target as the Hound's visor, and the guy wasn't even moving as well. And well guns are a non-factor here.
Well she didn't miss. Plus after that scene you can clearly see that she was not expecting that (I think she even said oh come on).
Well that's only further proof that she doesn't know how to counter armor ;)
Mindy is faster than him, she runs to the higher ground and the only thing Sandor can do is follow behind. She can do gymnastics while jumping off a building so she can get to the higher ground before Sandor does.
I don't see how parkour moves will help her here. Sandor will just run after her, easy-peasy. Either way, even if she creates a large distance between them, then it will only make it harder for her to hit him with her knives.
The opening to Sandor's helm is bigger than the guy's crotch. Hitting a moving target once in 12 chances is not impossible. This isn't even the main plan.
As you can see in the 3rd GIF of my opener, and as I explained above, Sandor's visor is something like 3-4 square CM. Which is very small.
They dodge balls that move slower than knives.
Well that depends on who throws them =P
It was crowded, and in the bar she did move around when she could.
It was crowded, yes, but that dining area where they fought was empty save for a few tables and chairs. The only man who came within a few meters from them was that guy that Mother Russia used for a human shield. Mindy only moved around like once or twice throughout the whole fight.
Because Frank is a middle aged balding man, she probably didn't know was a blackbelt superhuman. Once she did she changed her tune completely.
Not really... there was only those ~4 seconds of her avoiding him with those cool parkour tricks. Other than that, she kept charging headfirst and tried to beat him down.
Plus you can't aim dodge a spinning kick like you can a straight forward sword strike.
Umm... I really don't see the difference. Mindy charged headfirst into combat and failed to dodge Frank's kick. There's nothing to suggest that won't happen against the Hound as well.
The knife, was the clever trick, she tried speed, blunt force and now a knife.
What's so clever about picking up a knife from the floor, and charging at a man who almost killed her twice already? Nothing, really. You were suggesting that Mindy will just dance around Sandor to tire him out, which is something she has never done, with or without knowing what her opponent is capable of.
Still means she has a tatical brain.
Which doesn't help her much here, since she doesn't have the factors she utilized in those scans.
Despite the fact that Mindy has all around superhuman reaction speeds. She can load a gun mid air and see the clips move in mid air.
I never questioned Mindy's reaction speed. What I'm saying is, that despite her impressive perception, she gets tagged all the time by people whose speed is really nothing to write home about. So she will get tagged by the Hound, and she will die.
But she did use her speed in the bar and she did do cartwheels, remember though when Mindy tried to shoot Russia she pulled a hero from beside her as a human shield, that's how crowded it was. And when Russia got too close she hot too hard to dodge as she was fast.
She used those cartwheels only once when she tried to kill her with throwing knives, and when that didn't work... she just went for melee again. And as I said, the guy that Mother Russia used for a human shield is literally the only person who was anywhere near them. It was very far from crowded. Here's a tidbit from the fight and it's clearly seen that they had a lot of room to move around:
Russia as I have shown can match Mindy's speed so yeah she is faster than Sandor, nothing to prove otherwise.
I still fail to see how that means she's faster than the Hound. Circular logic isn't very credible.
So Sandor can one shot her, if he can even tag her woth the sword before she kills him.
The real question is whether Mindy can pull out an insanely risky maneuver to exploit an opening in Sandor's armor before he one-shots her.
She gets taged by superhumans, she dodges bullets and fodder all the time she can dodge Sandor, but Russia and Frank are fast and to an extent predict her movements (it's not an op skill, most martial artists can do it).
Predict her movements? Not really. Mother Russia just blocked most of Mindy's strikes, and Frank got tagged more often than not but he still beat Mindy senseless. You don't need to be able to predict someone's moves when they're literally just charging at you headfirst.
Strategy:
Again, I will just answer to the points that I feel require being addressed.
I mostly agree with this. Although Mindy can close the distance faster than Sandor can strike twice so it wouldn't really matter much.
You never really backed that up, it's just an assumption you were going off of since the beginning.
Nope, she is an aim dodger who can kill groups of henchmen without getting taged. You mention her getting taged by Frank and russia like they are only as fast as Sandor when his bestbfeats are dodging sword strikes (something a normal man can do) and barely dodging a knife, which isn't enough to keep up with Mindy. You also forget the importance of skill, which both Frank and Russia has, skill can help them predict Mindy's attacks and counter them, Sandor cannot do this as he is only skilled with a sword and to him Mindy's fighting style will be too unique to predict.
Sandor has solo'd groups of fighters as well and remained untouched. Point is, that once Mindy goes up against someone who actually knows what they're doing ("the boss" as you put it, like Frank or Mother Russia, and Sandor as well), she always ends up getting tagged. Aim-dodging is really irrelevant here. Sandor will tag her sooner or later just like any other opponent with a bit of skill that she had ever faced did, the difference being that, just like you yourself acknowledged, Sandor will one-shot her.
Well in her fights with Russia and Frank, as I have said, she did use tactics, she even had backup plans for both. I have also shown her use her surroundings to her advantage, here is another scan but this time of her targeting a group's knees.
I fail to see what sort of tactics she used against either of them. Tiring an opponent out is definitely out of her playbook.
A small traget bugger than a crotch that will move towards her and never be far away. Not too hard actually.
It's not really bigger than a crotch (I'm starting to feel uncomfortable discussing the size of a man's crotch really). It's a 3-4 square cm moving target. The odds of her pulling off this shot are about as good as knocking the helmet off, which are, as I said:
Nah, like I said his sword has a range of almost 2 meters, get inside that by an inch or so and it's cumbersome while his arms to punch with is less than 1 meter so he can be inside his sword yet outside his punches, his kife doesn't seem too long so I would think the same applies. As for kicks they would be more than slow enough to dodge even in a smaller space (which Hit Girl can still easily move around in).
Most of the sword's range is still the very deadly blade. You're speaking as if it's either Hit-Girl being too far away to tag the Hound, or being close enough that the Hound can't do anything. There's still the large range in-between where both of them are within comfortable reach of one another, with the only difference being that while Mindy will have a hard time even injuring Sandor, he can one-shot her with each swing of his sword.
Saying she doesn't also holds no evidence and is very unlikely and again, even if she knows nothing about armor, targeting the joints is a likely tactic she would use as I have shown her targeting weak spots like cutting legs and shoulders from the joints, shoting knees and choping off heads through the neck, stabing a man's crotch and against Mother Russia hitting her major arteries and veins as you can see below.
The burden of proof is on you on this one. Targeting weak spots goes without saying for any fighter who knows what they're doing, it's really the fundamentals of fighting, but even a man like Khrazz who has fought every day of his life since he was old enough to hold a sword was helpless against armor because he didn't know its properties.
That may be so, but I have yet to see Sandor beat a person of equal skill to him or greater.
You have seen him beat Beric Dondarrion who was a warrior of great renown, hold off the Mountain when holding back and giving Brienne, who is also a great warrior, the fight of her life (which he did lose, but it was very close and he was at the disadvantage of suffering from infected injuries).
When I say she would test the waters, I don't mean it literally as in I don't mean she would purposefully attack Sandor just to test his skills, rather that she would charge at him, realize he is stronger and more durable than her and skilled and then will change her strategy accordingly. So I mean she initially attacks Sandor thinking she can beat him then realizing it will take more strategy, not her attacking her to gather info. My wording is just bad.
When she fought Mother Russia and Frank, she realized they are stronger and more durable than her, but she still didn't pull off any clever tactic. The only thing close to that was when she tried to use her throwing knives against Mother Russia and failed miserably, just like it will fail against Sandor, and after that she went for melee again to no avail. She isn't likely to try and tire the Hound out or anything because she never did anything like that against people who fit your description of him ("stronger and more durable than her"), so this tactic is out of character for her.
So from that we can assume they are as fast or nearly as fast as Mindy. Circular feats or not, there is nothing to prove Sandor can do the same, plus in the comics Russia needed to study Mindy which helped her predict her movements and yet she still lost, fair and square.
I won't go over the who's faster again, I will leave everything I already said about that for the voters to decide if they agree or not. But, Mindy didn't beat Mother Russia fair and square, at all. Mother Russia curbsomped her, and Mindy only won when Mother Russia was distracted by her own henchmen who were talking to her.
Summary:
These are my main and final points as to why I believe the Hound will beat Hit Girl in this fight.
- As I said and you agreed, the Hound is more than capable of one-shotting Mindy with each swing of his sword.
- The Hound has better reach than Hit Girl in this fight. He can comfortably keep her at bay and put her on the defensive.
- The Hound's armor will completely protect him from any attack that isn't aimed directly at the gaps. In order to counter a man wearing medieval steel-plate armor, one needs to be familiar with the properties and weaknesses of it. Skill, speed and strength alone are not enough for that. Seeing as Mindy has nothing to suggest that she knows anything on steel-plate armor, there's no reason to believe she will know where to aim. Other than that, as I said, the armor will render any attack useless. It is tougher than Mindy's sword, and will not be cut or stabbed through, even if Mindy had the strength to theoretically do so, which she doesn't.
- Trying to throw knives at Sandor's face through his visor is a very far-fetched strategy, for several reasons. One, she would have to get to higher ground quick enough, while the Hound pursues her, in order to compensate for her height disadvantage and the awkward angle that is created for her by the Hound's uniquely-shaped helmet. Two, she has no feats that suggest she can throw a knife at a 3-4 square cm, moving target. And three, the Hound's helmet is designed so that throwing anything through its visor would be very, very hard, thanks to the long snout and the fangs.
- Trying to knock off the Hound's helmet is also very far-fetched. Mindy will have to preform very risky maneuvers which will leave her an easy target in order to pull it off. Getting in close enough to Sandor, while evading his reach advantage will also be very hard on its own. Moreover, his helmet is connected to a gorget, making it extremely hard to knock off, and on top of that, helmets never get knocked off even in jousting matches, in which people get knocked off galloping horses.
- Hit-Girl definitely has the advantage in agility and quickness, but that does not make her untouchable by any means. She gets tagged all the time when fighting people of noteworthy prowess. Heck, both Mother Russia and Frank outright defeated her, and she only survived thanks to very specific factors like Kick-Ass saving her from Frank in the last second, and Mother Russia being distracted by outside interference (in the comic) or Mindy getting a huge amp (in the movie).
- It is very out of character for Hit-Girl to try and tire out an opponent or do anything like that. She didn't do it against Frank nor against Mother Russia, even though she was outclassed against them both as far as strength and durability go. Call it hot-headed, violent, arrogant or just plain dumb, she is the type of character to charge into battle and try to out-punch her opponent head-on, which is the worst thing to try against someone like the Hound.
- Bottom line is, that Hit-Girl has to try and utilize complicated, extremely risky tactics with very slim chances of success, in order to even injure Sandor. On the other hand, the Hound only needs one clean hit on Mindy to cleave her in half and end the fight. Hit-Girl is good, but not good enough to beat these astronomical odds.
Actually, Sandor himself also put this way better than I ever could:
That was one of the most enjoyable debates that I recall having. You made good points throughout your posts and you clearly have great knowledge on Hit-Girl. After you are done your closing post, be sure to tag me and you can also feel free to tag the voters.
Final Round: Summery Counters
She will have to throw her knives accurately enough to bother him. No feats of knife-throwing acciuracy for her to suggest she is capable of that.
Not really, you've shown that it is in character for Sandor to dodge, so I would imagine that even if Mindy misses with her shots he woukd still dodge it if it looked like it will hit (you try not fliching when a sharp object moves towards you). Besides, Mindy is more accurate than you are saying.
They don't seem to be in Mindy's level of what, speed? Quickness? Agility? Martial skill?
All of the above.
Yeah probably, but it's not like Mindy is a speedster, she isn't fast enough to blitz people. Dodging a strike from her is probably harder than dodging a strike from an average man. I never said Sandor could dodge her all day long but judging by how easily he dodged all the people in my GIFs, he could dodge some of her strikes at least, while countering with his own.
Even if Sandor can dodge her (which I do not think is likely), Hit Girl can follow up right after her attacks leaving no room for Sandor to counter, that is the upside of having a double edged weapon or a twin swords.
Well she did get tagged by Hit Girl more than once and relied more on blocking than actual dodging. She is definitely slower than Mindy, but nothing suggests she's faster than Sandor.
Well, asides from going toe to toe with Mindy you are right but asides from that she never had to use her speed.
To be fair the only blows that he dodged were aimed at his head which was exposed and unprotected in all of those fights (except from the first one, but in this one he was fighting an enemy with a mace which is a heavy blunt weapon, so regardless of helmet you do NOT wanna get hit by that thing). He is well aware that his armor can keep him safe from any knife-throw that isn't perfectly aimed at his face through the visor, so there's no reason to think that he will just dodge all the time.
Yes, and the head would be where Mindy would aim to buy her time. It's not like Sandor knows if it is going to hit or not, he will most probably dodge it if there is even a chance that it lands as it is basically an insta kill.
Not if she's close enough to try and knock his helmet off.
She isn't that short, and the sword spear gives her enough length to attack Sandor's helmet from an arm's length distance.
They actually mention the bone being there. Right after the cut (2:24), the other guy says "Look how big that bone is" and then the narrator says "James's katana cuts clean through Porky's bone!" Also if you rewind the video a bit (2:05) he explains that pig bones are thicker than human bones. By the way, they used pork because pigs' tissues best resemble human tissue throughout the animal kingdom. Anyway my point with this was that cutting through limbs doesn't require much strength, but it does require a sharp blade like Mindy's. Her blades are even curved so that indicates they're designed especially for slicing and cutting. Which means that Hit Girl isn't that strong after all.
In the clip I don't see any bone on that meat. I know they cut bone, but the bone was kinda hard to see so it can't have been all that big, I even thought it was a spine. And like I said the Katana is better than the longsword at cutting things, so if the katana is as good as Mindy's sword, it still means her sword is better than the longsword (which does nothing to disprove my original claim of Mindy having better cutting power than a knight with a longsword).
Cows have thicker tissues than humans by a large margin, which is why pork is usually used for such tests. A cow's ribs/skull would definitely be far stronger than any human limb, including the femur. Bulls literally use their heads as weapons, lol.
Pretty sure it's a cow not a bull. But anyway, the human femur is stronger than the cow's ribs and 3x heavier. A cow's skull is stronger but it ribs aren't (also the pig's head stoped the sword at 3:06 granted it cutbthe skull, a femur is stronger than a pig's skull as well).
She was only beaten by Mindy after she was distracted though (in the comics) or when Mindy got a huge amp (in the movie). Before that she was completely helpless against her.
Russia had prep both times and again Mindy was out of her element because of the place they were fighting in (more on this later).
And breaking bones with a drop-kick is very impressive for a girl but it isn't some superhuman feat that suggests that she's stronger than a grown man, let alone a knight.
There is no way a knight can do that, and you have given no evidence proving otherwise
Well there are actually metals, such as Damascus Steel that are famous for keeping their edge. Either way, cutting through a lamp post (which is probably plastic)
Lamp posts are more commonly made of metal, and who would use a plastic lamp as protection?
and a metal door (for all we know it could have been made of softer metals like iron or aluminium) don't prove much. Armor is made of thick, hardened steel, specially tampered to withstand cutting and piercing.
We are talking about Hit Girl's strength in general, not her strength against armor (we agreed that was risky and not likely).
On the contrary, the man in that clip (who is just an ordinary Joe, not a warrior who trained day in and day out since childhood) cut through pork with ease, although its bone was tougher than a human's.
I covered this. They said it was tougher than human bones, but we don't know which bones they were talking about, they don't even tell us which part of the pig that is.
Because medieval plate armor has not been used in war (or anywhere else) for the last few centuries, lol. Learning about it would be completely useless and impractical for her. Everything else he had taught her is at least somewhat relevant for present day. Plate armor isn't.
It is still being used in recreational fights and sports, and she lives in a world where nerdy teens can become heroes with a batoon, plate armor is easily bought (compared to jetpacks which she can use) and so I would guess that she would study it just based on that. Knowledge on action movies and action movie stars is useless. I said this a few times now, but you wouldn't even need knowledge on armor to target the gaps, only knowledge on joints (which everyone knows about). Just to make it shorter I will answer you other questions/statements regarding armor without quoting. No she has never fought a man with plate armor specifically. There are modern full body armor with gaps (look up police riot armor) which she would know about, it's different but similar enough. It's up to the voters to judge now, btw everything is guesswork until tested and we can never test this so for now it's an educated guess (just like this whole battle sceneario).
That's actually untrue. He is 30 years old, in his prime. Jorah is closer to 50. The Hound is actually younger than Frank (judging by the fact that Frank has a son in high-school), and Frank schooled Hit-Girl nonetheless.
Wow, the Hound looks much older than he is. Lol. But anyway, Frank is a black belt, an experienced killer (hinted to be one of the best, killing a Kickass look alike out in the open and not getting caught) and has stats above an average human and he can tag Hit Girl. Age doesn't matter to him.
Actually the one and only time in the show where someone lost a helmet in a fight is the Mountain, after the Red Viper knocked it off, and he did it from behind.
It wasn't anything special, Viper pushed the Mountain while he was facing down, knocking off the helmet. Again evidence that the helmet is not fastened (more on this later).
Regardless, even in jousting, where people get knocked off horses at high speeds and fall hard to the ground, helmets never get knocked off - and this is true for both the show and the books. I only mentioned Jaime's joust because it's the only one where the helmet is specifically mentioned, but it's true for every single other joust in the show and/or in the books.
So if helmets don't get knocked off in jousts, why would Jamie's? It even got bent so it would be harder to remove.
OK... where to begin, lol. First of all, Kingsguard armor is exclusive to the Kingsguard, and each member of the Kingsguard has the exact same set of armor. Jaime's armor in that picture is Lannister armor and this picture is from a scene that took place after Jaime was dismissed from the Kingsguard.
I Googled Sandor in Kingsguard armor and it looks like this (I have to show it to clear confusion). Now, before the battle began you never told me which armor Sandor would use, you only said his plate armor, and I assumed you meant his Hound armor cause that's the pic you wanted and you used feats for that armor so I did not know you used Kingsguard armor as well. This is important because Sandor and Jamie had different armors in the Kingsguard, with stronger helmsn (well maybe not Jamie), Sandor's current armor does not have Jamie's jousting feat so it has no feats against being knocked off.
Also, it is true that Jaime is rich, but the Hound is (was) Prince (and later King) Joffrey's personal bodyguard. It would be fallacious to think that his set of armor would not be as good as any in the realm.
Not exactly, Valyrian steel, best type of metal for a sword yet when Sandor fights Brienne he remarks on how he always wanted it. Doesn't seem like Joffery bought a Valyrian sword for Sandor so why would he buy the best armor?
Regarding Sandor's armor in the show, I already talked about that in my opener. It's not plate armor, like he has in the books. They just gave him this set of armor in the show because it has a unique look that distinguishes him from everyone else. One way or another, as I said, the show is hardly a credible source for the capabilities of plate armor.
But you have used feats for the Hound armor so I think I am free to use flaws of it too. It doesn't matter though, I only mentioned that it has a weak breastplate something I won't exploiting.
Like in the pit fight with Jorah that I posted in a previous post, the 2nd man that he fights pierces his armor with a rapier, just like the one that Arya used to try and stab the Hound with and failed (even though his armor in the show isn't even plate). The show is unreliable and inconsistent with armor; the books are reliable and consistent.
But I do not remeber Sanodr's armor being inconsistant. The no name charcter's are the ones with inconsistent armor.
Anyway, why would Gregor's armor be a better example for Sandor's armor?
Similar design, seemingly made out of the same metal, helmet matching their titles (giant mountain shape and dog shape) etc.
In the show, Gregor didn't even have a gorget (neck-piece) like Sandor does. I mentioned the gorget when you first suggested knocking his helmet off, and you kinda ignored it. Look at the 3rd GIF from my first post, Sandor's helm is connected to his gorget and it will make his helm extremely hard to knock off (and makes twisting it around like you also suggested quite impossible). The suits of armor in your videos don't even have gorgets, lol.
The gorget is only there to protect the throat. It won't make it harder to knock off, it just means it is heavier, nothing more, if the Mountain had a gorget his helmet would have had his helmet knocked off. Why? Because you can still hit it from the sides to knock it off (his gorget does not reach there), you can attack from the back to knock it off and you can attack the front to open his visor (which is actually eaier than knocking it off). All attacks give him a huge weakness which does not change the plan. You can see a clear image in Google of the Hound and his helmet facing sideways btw.
Regarding his visor, it's really not huge. Again if you look at the 3rd GIF from my opener, where the Hound is seen opening his visor, you can see that the opening is like 3-4 fingers wide (which means it's around 3-4 square cm), and it also has the "fangs" that can provide an extra layer of protection against throwing knives and such.
3 fingers wide is much wider than a kinfe, it is more than enough, there is a space between the fangs she can aim at. If Hit Girl hits the visor then it will even reveal his entire face (since the visor is easy to lift and hit) but at that point knives won't matter since Mindy can just stab his face.
Bottom line, regarding all the knocking-off-the-helmet idea, it falls under this pretty much:
No, the gorget does not go around his neck or is connected to his body armor, it changes little.
Not really. In the fight where he was felled to the floor that I posted above, he kicks people and it isn't at all cumbersome. I won't post it here because it's arguably like using a new feat (although I did use parts of this fight in my previous posts, by the way it's also the show's counterpart for his fight at the inn when he dodged the throwing knife, although it happened differently). I will post a link to this fight in another context later though.
You are not factoring in the weight of the armor, and even though it offers great mobility you aren't as mobile as you are without the armor.
He's not really using a greatsword, more like a bastard sword. But that doesn't matter, as long as she is within the reach of the blade (which is the better part of those 1.5 meters or however long it really is), she is within range of getting cleaved in half.
It said on Reddit that he uses both but prefers the greatesword. She can close the disnacte before he lands one.
Well context matters here. He was alone, surrounded by at least 3 men (keyword being surrounded, which means that no matter where he was facing there was at least one person behind him). Here's the full scene (as I said that I will show you). It's marked to start at the relevant bit, to show he's surrounded.
Being surrounded by 3 people? Hit Girl murders 5 of 'em all with guns like it's no big deal. And if I saw that right, a signle hit to the back of the knee knocked him down (I know it's a joint but sill)? Hit Girl can do that, without her fancy counters.
It doesn't really slow you down, it just fatigues you more than fighting without armor, which only matters when a fight goes on long enough.
If true then it would still help wear Sandor down, still think the weight would slow a man down though even if just by a bit.
Yeah, like that guy in your GIF who was literally just standing there, not even looking at Mindy?
If that guy wss the Flash would that change the fact that Mindy can cross a room to land a kick in seconds? I think not, my point was her agility nothing more.
Be that as it may, he dodged a knife-throw, that came by surprise, from close range, while he's drunk. That's good enough.
Well he has no feats better than this while not being drunk so I am not sure it even negatively affected him.
Visor*. =)
That's what I said *edits post*. Lol.
Yeah but dodging a small knife doesn't mean dolphin-diving sideways or anything, lol. He can just tilt his head a little and that's it. No big deal, it's nothing that should hamper him all that much.
That would still take him off the offensive for a second which is all it takes.
Not really impressive... it wasn't as small a target as the Hound's visor, and the guy wasn't even moving as well. And well guns are a non-factor here.
The guns are an accuracy feat. I would say it is debateable, it is up for the voters to decide (which is bigger a man's crotch or Sandor's visor).
Well that's only further proof that she doesn't know how to counter armor ;)
It didn't look like thick metal and her knives penetrated it so it doesn't prove anything.
I don't see how parkour moves will help her here. Sandor will just run after her, easy-peasy. Either way, even if she creates a large distance between them, then it will only make it harder for her to hit him with her knives.
Parkour helps get people tonplaces faster. Sandor will come after her closing the distance.
As you can see in the 3rd GIF of my opener, and as I explained above, Sandor's visor is something like 3-4 square CM. Which is very small.
I'm not gonna google the size of a man's crotch so like ai said the voter's will decide.
Well that depends on who throws them =P
True, but I think knives are more aerodynamic (spell check? Failed probably, lol).
It was crowded, yes, but that dining area where they fought was empty save for a few tables and chairs. The only man who came within a few meters from them was that guy that Mother Russia used for a human shield. Mindy only moved around like once or twice throughout the whole fight.
Russia used it to her advantage early on, hurting Mindy so she couldn't use agility anymore. After she caught her at the bar.
Not really... there was only those ~4 seconds of her avoiding him with those cool parkour tricks. Other than that, she kept charging headfirst and tried to beat him down.
She tried yo beat him down with brass knuckles and knives.
Umm... I really don't see the difference. Mindy charged headfirst into combat and failed to dodge Frank's kick. There's nothing to suggest that won't happen against the Hound as well.
Because you can't predict where the kick will come from and ehich type of kick will be used unlike a gun where you can just move away from where it is pointed, same with a sword, you can always see where it is going.
What's so clever about picking up a knife from the floor, and charging at a man who almost killed her twice already? Nothing, really.
Everything. Using the only thing that can hurt him as your weapon.
You were suggesting that Mindy will just dance around Sandor to tire him out, which is something she has never done, with or without knowing what her opponent is capable of.
You know how the fight between her and Frank went down right? First she charged at him, then got hit, then she dodged his attacks then she poundednon him with brass knuckles, then when he tanked them she bit him but he choked her, then she used a vase to hurt him, then he threw her, then she used a knife to block his attacks and stab him then he countered her with a table slam. She used her speed, environment, weapons and skill to try to get an advantage, she was simply out classed and or matched, the same does not apply here.
Which doesn't help her much here, since she doesn't have the factors she utilized in those scans.
She isn't limited to only those scans, I have shown her targeting joints and weak spots before.
I never questioned Mindy's reaction speed. What I'm saying is, that despite her impressive perception, she gets tagged all the time by people whose speed is really nothing to write home about. So she will get tagged by the Hound, and she will die.
But you can't say that those who tagged her are nothing to write home about, that does not make her aim dodging and room clearing feats void. It's like saying Bane can tag Kid Flash because Deathstroke can tag him, it doesn't take into account DS's superior skill, perception and speed. Sandor can barely dodge a knife, he certainly does not compare to people who can compete with aim dodgers.
She used those cartwheels only once when she tried to kill her with throwing knives, and when that didn't work... she just went for melee again.
She still used her agility to create space, she used guns bit it was too crowded, melee was her only option till Last Resort.
And as I said, the guy that Mother Russia used for a human shield is literally the only person who was anywhere near them. It was very far from crowded. Here's a tidbit from the fight and it's clearly seen that they had a lot of room to move around:
That is just PIS basically a setpiece, Kickass and Motherfu(pleasedon'tbanme)er's fight went mostly undisturbed for some reason (they went to the roof, but why would they go there? And they are both leaders why didn't anyone follow?) not to mentiom the side character heroes where each fighting only one villain each (mostly) despite the beginning looking like this
I still fail to see how that means she's faster than the Hound. Circular logic isn't very credible.
Circular logic is better than nothing. Sandor should at least have comparable feats to Hit Girl if he wants tobe treated as just as fast as Frank and Russia, but the best he has is barely knife dodging which is far from aim dodging.
The real question is whether Mindy can pull out an insanely risky maneuver to exploit an opening in Sandor's armor before he one-shots her.
And the answer is yes. She is faster, she dictates the pace of the fight, she can retreat anytime she wants, Sandor can chance but she will always be a step quicker, she can attack when she wants and try to knock of the helmet/visor, meanwhile Sandor will have to wait till Mindy gets close enoigh to even try to tag her, if she misses she can retreat, if Sandor misses she gets inside his sword. She can attack from all sides even from behind using her skill, like The Red Viper does to the Mountain. The bottom line is, Mindy controls the fight, with her tactical brain she wilk use it to her advantage like she tried to do with Frank (except she isn't facing an opponent that fast, isn't tired from murdering a floor full of armed killers, has her swords and has better feats thanks to the comic).
Predict her movements? Not really. Mother Russia just blocked most of Mindy's strikes, and Frank got tagged more often than not but he still beat Mindy senseless. You don't need to be able to predict someone's moves when they're literally just charging at you headfirst.
You need timing and quickness, I took martial arts classes before and from what I have learned I know that if you kick an opponent coming at you too early you miss the shot and leave yourself open, too late and you risk injurry. You need to time your attacks, know when your opponent is open and have the speed to use it, these people are human so they can't rely on speed alone they need to predict Mindy's movements. Besides, they both are highly trained killers so saying they can predict movements is not stretching.
Counters: Strategy
You never really backed that up, it's just an assumption you were going off of since the beginning.
The claim that Mindy can close the distance on Sandor before he can strike twice? You mean dodging a billet (showed it 3 times), running arcross a room in seconds and jumping from one building to another is not good enough? The starting distance is just 5 meteres, she can close that in seconds or less.
Sandor has solo'd groups of fighters as well and remained untouched.
He was knocked down by just 3 men. And when he does, he does it through strength.
Point is, that once Mindy goes up against someone who actually knows what they're doing ("the boss" as you put it, like Frank or Mother Russia, and Sandor as well), she always ends up getting tagged. Aim-dodging is really irrelevant here.
Cause the boss is skilled in h2h and fast while being as strong as Sandor, theybare not equals and Sandor will have a much harder time tagging Mindy. Aim dodging is not irrelevant, she can see where Sandor's sword is swing then dodge it (aim dodging feat plus loading dun in slow mo feat).
Sandor will tag her sooner or later just like any other opponent with a bit of skill that she had ever faced did, the difference being that, just like you yourself acknowledged, Sandor will one-shot her.
A bit of skill? Mindy is most probably just as skilled as Sandor. Sandor can one shit her, doesn't mean it will happen, Mindy is too smart/skilled/agile/fast for that to happen, more on this later.
I fail to see what sort of tactics she used against either of them. Tiring an opponent out is definitely out of her playbook.
Her hitting Sandor's joints and him failing to tag her is what tires him, not a play but a fact, Sandor will get tired from fighting Mindy because of how she fights.
It's not really bigger than a crotch (I'm starting to feel uncomfortable discussing the size of a man's crotch really). It's a 3-4 square cm moving target. The odds of her pulling off this shot are about as good as knocking the helmet off, which are, as I said:
Up to the voters, but where did you even get your for finger estimate? Sandor is very unlucky then.
Most of the sword's range is still the very deadly blade. You're speaking as if it's either Hit-Girl being too far away to tag the Hound, or being close enough that the Hound can't do anything. There's still the large range in-between where both of them are within comfortable reach of one another,
True there is an inbetween, but like I said Mindy co trols the fight basically, she either gets too close, gets too far or is just inbetween....but not in front of him.
with the only difference being that while Mindy will have a hard time even injuring Sandor, he can one-shot her with each swing of his sword.
The only difference being that while Sandor will have a hard time even tagging Mindy, she can tag him with ease and hit 'em where it hurts.
The burden of proof is on you on this one. Targeting weak spots goes without saying for any fighter who knows what they're doing, it's really the fundamentals of fighting,
Exactly. And the joints are weak spots in armor or body.
but even a man like Khrazz who has fought every day of his life since he was old enough to hold a sword was helpless against armor because he didn't know its properties.
Khrazz isn't the be all end all, the guy who fought Jorah knew where to hit him, the Viper knew where to hit the Mountain. The guy is a pit fighter who rarely faces armor.
You have seen him beat Beric Dondarrion who was a warrior of great renown, hold off the Mountain when holding back and giving Brienne, who is also a great warrior, the fight of her life (which he did lose, but it was very close and he was at the disadvantage of suffering from infected injuries).
Which GIF was that? And okay, you got this one. Not a big deal though he would have to stay in the defense if is plan is to protect his joints (seems out of character for him to be defensive as well).
When she fought Mother Russia and Frank, she realized they are stronger and more durable than her, but she still didn't pull off any clever tactic. The only thing close to that was when she tried to use her throwing knives against Mother Russia and failed miserably, just like it will fail against Sandor, and after that she went for melee again to no avail.
I have listed many examples during the fight and stated that she was out classed, but tell me what could she have done? Especially when she was at a hige disadvantage against both by not just being out classed but being weaponless, remeber what Mother Russia says, she uses her weapons to make up for her height and strength. So what genius move could she have pulled off? Which weaknessess could she have used against Frank or Russia? Tire them? Give Frank a chance to get the gun and Russia to kill other heroes? She can't dance around them like she can Sandor because 1. They can tag her and 2. Every hit they land weakens her.
I do not know what she could have done to win those fights with those conditions.
She isn't likely to try and tire the Hound out or anything because she never did anything like that against people who fit your description of him ("stronger and more durable than her"), so this tactic is out of character for her.
I covered this, her fighting style tires him out by itself.
But, Mindy didn't beat Mother Russia fair and square, at all. Mother Russia curbsomped her, and Mindy only won when Mother Russia was distracted by her own henchmen who were talking to her.
That's fair and square since she didn't cause it.
Summery/How the Fight will Go
Not gonna counter your summery since it is up to the voters now.
So how does the fight go down? Well, think Bronn vs Ser Vardis Ergan meets The Viper vs The Mountain. What do those fights have in common? Well, both Bronn and the Viper wore light armor and were faster than their enemy, both could be one shotted by their enemy and both had enemies who were heavily armored and above all, both controlled their enemy and the fight (Bronn even had a tactical mind) and that was the key to their victories (Well viper lost but that was only because he wanted the Mountain to confess to mudering his sister and refused to kill him before that, but he had the Mountain at the floor injurred).
You see when the Viper fought the Mountain he was doing what Hit girl will do. Attacking, countering and steping back when things get hot, using his aglity to flow around the Mountain, to attack Gregor's weak points and to remove his helmet. This is how Mindy will fight, with agility, speed, swift counters and with the aim to remove the helmet.
Likewise, when Bron fought Vardis, he was weaving through the battlefield dodging and countering as he went, he used the battlefield and his speed to create distance while his opponent went after him, when Vardis got close he attacked him with a dagger and attacked him from the back. This is also how Mindh will fight, with speed, intellect and targeted attacks.
This is how she will fight and win, but she is not exactly like Bronn or Viper, she is better, she is quicker, faster, smaller and more versitile then either of them while having similar striking power. She also will not hesitate to kill Sandor or be backed into a corner (or hole) as she does not care about him and the battlefield has no such hazards.
This is how the ai think fight will go, for more specific details, I direct you to my previous post and the same applies, stabing the joints/gaps and removing the helmet/visor, all while tiring the Hound just by hurting him, being quicker and having a unique fighting style.
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