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#1 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

CaV: The Hound (The Red Viper) V.S. Hit-Girl (Major Hellstorm)

Sandor Clegane (TV & Books)
Sandor Clegane (TV & Books)

Equiment: His full plate armor, his dog's helm, his sword and a knife.

V.S.

Mindy McCready (Movies & Comics)
Mindy McCready (Movies & Comics)

Equiment: Her Double Sided Detachable Sword, 2 butterfly knives, a combat knife, a dozen thorwing knives and her standard costume/armor.

Rules:

  • Random encounter.
  • No prior knowledge except for general reputation.
  • No prep.
  • In character but both are determined to win.
  • The Hound will not mind killing Mindy.
  • Battle starts within 5 meters of each other both are visable.
  • Battle is to the death, KO or submission.

Location:

In the bottom with Sandor being in the left and Mindy in the right
In the bottom with Sandor being in the left and Mindy in the right

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#2 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43018 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting tag for votes

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#3 Posted by lubub55 (12877 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#4 Posted by shirso (3858 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#5 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice

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#6 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Edited by StormShadow_X (16365 posts) - - Show Bio

Looorda

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#8 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: "Tag for votes". When the CaV is over, they want to be notified so they can read it and vote.

Been out of the game too long man. Lol. I can't wait to read this one.

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#10 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by RBT (27160 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#12 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

For any who reads this, Major and I have agreed to write 4 posts each: Opener, 2 rebuttals and summary.

So, here's my opener.

Introducing:

Sandor Clegane, AKA The Hound:

No Caption Provided

The Hound is a hardened killer. He is extremely strong and not too shabby in the speed department either. Most people know him from the "Game of Thrones" TV show, but I will be using a TV and book composite version, where his fights have a little more detail in them, and his speed is more clearly shown and described.

Hit-Girl is obviously an opponent that fights in a style that The Hound has never encountered. She is probably faster and more martially skilled than anyone he has fought (although that's up to you to prove), but The Hound has 2 main things that I think can earn him the win: His strength, and his armor.

Now, I know from general knowledge (respect thread) that Mindy can take a beating, and that she had faced opponents far stronger than her, like Mother Russia. But Sandor's strength is legit superhuman. For example:

No Caption Provided

Here he kicks Brienne through full plate armor hard enough to make her scream and twist in pain. Important to note that in this fight, Sandor was very sick and far below his peak performance.

He has more showings of strength, many of which are far better than that, but this alone is a legit superhuman showing. I don't wanna waste away everything that I have right in the opener, this is merely a taste.

The thing that grants him the real advantage though, is his armor.

The Hound uses full plate armor, worn over chainmail and boiled leather that offer some protection to the joints, which are typically the weak spots of plate armor. Plate armor is designed so it cannot be penetrated:

No Caption Provided

Historically, plate armor is what made the use of very heavy blunt weapons such as warhammers, morning stars, maces and flails a lot more common. But... Hit-Girl doesn't have any of those things here, lol. Now, you might wanna argue that she can aim for the small gaps in his armor. But, I would just give you the answer now: it's only his armor in the series. In the books, he wears full plate, as shown in the picture above. Honestly I don't even know what this type of armor from the show is called, or if any such thing has ever existed in history. His helm would also be very hard to get through, since it offers great protection. Its only weak spot is through the "snout", which is by itself a good 10-15 cm away from Sandor's face, and the "fangs" provide some extra protection as well. Considering this, plus the height difference, putting a blade through the visor would be very, very hard for Hit-Girl.

No Caption Provided

Now, the moment the fight starts, I would assume they would both charge at one another, seeing as both of them are very "trigger-happy" and aggressive. Sure, The Hound won't be able to tag Hit Girl easily with his sword, but if he does - it's all over. He has the reach advantage, seeing as he is a huge man (I don't think his height is stated in the books, but the actor who portrays him - Rory McCann - is almost 2 meters tall), and he also uses a sword that looks to be at least as long as Hit-Girl's double-edged sword. So, she would have to get in very close, while evading his deadly sword, if she wants to get the job done. If she manages to do so, she will have to work her way around the armor - which cannot be penetrated, which would give him a very good chance to strike her with his off-hand, and you have seen how powerful his hits are (this isn't even his best showing). Or he could just grab her, which would result in this:

No Caption Provided

This is just showcasing Sandor's main advantages and a general overview of how the fight could go. I'm waiting for your opener to delve deeper into things and actual strategy.

Your move @major_hellstorm

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#14 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Good post. My next post may take longer since my WI-FI got cut just a few hours before that went live, but I'll do my best to get it out soon.

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#15 Edited by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2640 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for voting.

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#17 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

Listen up kiddies, before I start I just want to say this CaV is rated R-13, if you do not like bloody violence, profound cursing or (possible) spoilers leave now. Also credit to AllStarSuperman for a lot of my scans. Anway.....

Introducing on of the most badass heroine ever created......

Hit-Girl

No Caption Provided

Basic Overview

Hit Girl is.....

Counters

Hit-Girl is obviously an opponent that fights in a style that The Hound has never encountered.

This is true for the both of us, however Sandor's fighting style is much easier to figure out than Hit Girl's.

She is probably faster and more martially skilled than anyone he has fought (although that's up to you to prove),

To my knowledge no one in GoT can aim dodge ornis martially skilled so this is true.

but The Hound has 2 main things that I think can earn him the win: His strength, and his armor.

Let's see.

Now, I know from general knowledge (respect thread) that Mindy can take a beating, and that she had faced opponents far stronger than her, like Mother Russia. But Sandor's strength is legit superhuman. For example:

Here he kicks Brienne through full plate armor hard enough to make her scream and twist in pain. Important to note that in this fight, Sandor was very sick and far below his peak performance.

Now that is not a bad feat, but Mother Russia is stronger than Sandor is, she can tear doors of of police cars and snap necks with her leg as you can see below.

Loading Video...

So taking a beating from Mother Russia (which you can see here and here) is more impressive than kicking a girl through mail armor.

He has more showings of strength, many of which are far better than that, but this alone is a legit superhuman showing. I don't wanna waste away everything that I have right in the opener, this is merely a taste.

Okay but till then I can only assume that Mother Russia is stronger and thus taking a beating from her is more impressive.

The Hound uses full plate armor, worn over chainmail and boiled leather that offer some protection to the joints, which are typically the weak spots of plate armor. Plate armor is designed so it cannot be penetrated:

But can it be sliced? Hit Girl can chop legs clean off with ease as you can see below.

No Caption Provided

Historically, plate armor is what made the use of very heavy blunt weapons such as warhammers, morning stars, maces and flails a lot more common. But... Hit-Girl doesn't have any of those things here, lol. Now, you might wanna argue that she can aim for the small gaps in his armor. But, I would just give you the answer now: it's only his armor in the series. In the books, he wears full plate, as shown in the picture above. Honestly I don't even know what this type of armor from the show is called, or if any such thing has ever existed in history.

So his armor has no weakness asides from the helmet? If it can withstand multiple slices from Hit Girl she will just focus her attention at the helm.

His helm would also be very hard to get through, since it offers great protection.

But can it be knocked off? We see Sandor put it on in the show and it doesn't seem like it's fastened so I doubt it will be that hard for Hit Girl to remove.

Its only weatk spot is through the "snout", which is by itself a good 10-15 cm away from Sandor's face, and the "fangs" provide some extra protection as well. Considering this, plus the height difference, putting a blade through the visor would be very, very hard for Hit-Girl.

Her sword wich can extend into a spear is more than long enough to make up for the height difference, plus she has a dozen thowing knives she could use to kill him from a distance and that's assumeing she can't knock off the helmet or get through the armor.

Now, the moment the fight starts, I would assume they would both charge at one another, seeing as both of them are very "trigger-happy" and aggressive.

True, but Hit Girl is smart and will not try to beat Sandor in a straight up CQC fight after seeing what he can do. Instead she will tire him out then use various tactics to wear him down to kill him (more on strategy next post).

Sure, The Hound won't be able to tag Hit Girl easily with his sword, but if he does - it's all over.

Or at all, Hit Girl can aim dodge she can easily dodge a blow from a sword that big. Also it'll take 2 clean hits from Sandor to kill her. One for the armor and one for her, and I highly doubt Sandor can get two clean hits on Hit Girl.

He has the reach advantage, seeing as he is a huge man (I don't think his height is stated in the books, but the actor who portrays him - Rory McCann - is almost 2 meters tall),

That is true, but Hit Girl being so small is not a bad thing as she is more agile meaning she is even harder to hit.

and he also uses a sword that looks to be at least as long as Hit-Girl's double-edged sword. So, she would have to get in very close, while evading his deadly sword, if she wants to get the job done.

True she will have to get in close eventually but not right away. And Sandor has to do the same.

If she manages to do so, she will have to work her way around the armor - which cannot be penetrated,

But I think that a dozen sword strikes from Hit Girl would wear it down, if that is what she tries to do but her taking advantage of the helm's opening is more likely.

which would give him a very good chance to strike her with his off-hand, and you have seen how powerful his hits are (this isn't even his best showing).

Like I said earlier Russia seems to be stronger than Sandor and her beating did not even KO Mindy, I doubt Sandor's ounch could do much damage.

Or he could just grab her, which would result in this:

Grabbing Hit Girl by the neck would be harder than hitting her with a sword.

All in all I think Hit Girl is too fast for Sandor and has more ways to win, like knocking of his helmet, aiming for the gap in his helmet, wearing down his armor or completely disarming him (which Sandor can't do to her since she is too fast and uses what amounts to 2 swords) which would give her the ability to do a whole lot of other things.

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#18 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Edited by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Edited by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

Day off, no plans, quick response.

This is true for the both of us, however Sandor's fighting style is much easier to figure out than Hit Girl's.

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't matter too much really. The thing that does matter is whether Mindy knows how to fight an armored opponent or not.

To my knowledge no one in GoT can aim dodge ornis martially skilled so this is true.

Well that is debatable, especially in the books, but I won't delve too much into it.

Now that is not a bad feat, but Mother Russia is stronger than Sandor is, she can tear doors of of police cars and snap necks with her leg as you can see below.

As I said, that wasn't Sandor's best strength feat yet. As another example, Sandor has the confirmed strength of at least 4 men:

No Caption Provided

Here he is seen carrying a large log, while you can see groups of 4 regular men are required to do this same task.

The distance he had to walk was pretty large too. Here is the full video, where you can see that he carried it all the way to the sept (the structure that they were building). My guess would be that the distance from the point where we first see Sandor to the sept is anywhere between 100 and 200 meters (and we know that he was walking some distance before as well).

Another important detail is that it was shortly after Sandor's fight with Brienne. He was gravely wounded, almost dead. He was found nursed back to health but still wasn't at his peak performance.

Now, I don't have the means to calc either this feat or Mother Russia's to see which is better, but either way I wouldn't place them too far apart.

So taking a beating from Mother Russia (which you can see here and here) is more impressive than kicking a girl through mail armor.

Well yeah, Mindy sure can take a beating. She has impressive endurance. But, it's not like she laughed those hits off, she was definitely disoriented and really shaken by them. Which allowed Mother Russia to keep on beating on her mercilessly without Mindy being able to react. IIRC, Mindy was only able to fight back when Mother Russia was distracted by other people, right? Here, there's nothing to distract Sandor.

And for the record, Brienne isn't just a girl, she's a warrior of great prowess. She's stronger than most men and has very good skill too. Moreover, a second before that she had punched Sandor in the one place where a man does NOT want to be punched, I'm sure you know what I mean. But if you want another one, here you go:

Here you can see Sandor throwing the most casual punch possible at Beric Dondarrion. Beric was wearing steel plate armor, and yet the punch took his breath from him, sent him reeling backwards and made him fall to one knee:

No Caption Provided

Okay but till then I can only assume that Mother Russia is stronger and thus taking a beating from her is more impressive.

Well I guess that now you know better lol.

Moreover, this isn't a fist fight. Sandor has a sword. Tagging Mindy would mean cutting/stabbing her, and combined with Sandor's strength this will cause far more damage than Mindy has dealt with against Mother Russia.

But can it be sliced? Hit Girl can chop legs clean off with ease as you can see below.

So his armor has no weakness asides from the helmet? If it can withstand multiple slices from Hit Girl she will just focus her attention at the helm.

I will answer these 2 questions together. Stabbing through steel plate armor is not too possible, but you'd still have a better chance at stabbing through it than slicing or cutting through it. Knights clad in steel plate armor (well Sandor isn't a knight but whatever, lol) were basically the tanks of medieval warfare, historically knights in full plate rarely died on the battlefield. Steel plate armor has weak spots in the joints (armpits for example), but they're very narrow gaps, and are protected by chainmail and hard leather worn beneath the plate, so although they aren't as guarded as areas covered by the plate itself, they're still not too vulnerable.

As for the armor withstanding multiple slices, well even if Mindy had the strength to potentially cut or stab through steel plate armor, her blade would break sooner than the armor would be penetrated.

Here are examples from the books of plate armor resisting cuts. It's not Sandor's armor specifically, but Sandor's armor is as good as any if not better, since Sandor is stronger and can use heavier armor:

"Khrazz cursed and turned a high cut into a low one, slipping past the old knight's blade for once, only to have his blow scrape uselessly off a white steel greave."

[...]

"Khrazz slashed at his arm and caught him, but the arakh could only chip the hard enamel before it met the steel below."

A Dance with Dragons

There are more examples but these should suffice for now. If you want to know, it's from a fight between Ser Barristan Selmy and Khrazz, who is a champion of the fighting pits in Meereen (essentially a gladiator).

There is, however, another quote from this fight that I would like to mention. It shows the importance of knowing how to fight an armored opponent:

"Khrazz did not know how to fight a man in armor. Ser Baristan could see it in his eyes: doubt, confusion, the beginning of fear."

A Dance with Dragons

Now, this is important because you mentioned that Mindy will get accustomed to Sandor's style quicker than the other way around. Now, that might very well be true, but the above quote serves to prove that it doesn't matter.

It is mentioned in the beginning of the fight that Khrazz was as fast as any man that Barristan had ever seen (and he's seen a lot of fighters, including people like Jaime Lannister who perceives his opponents in combat in slow-motion), and he was also 40 years younger and far bigger and heavier than Selmy. What's more is that Khrazz was a veteran pit-fighter, and in the fighting pits, there are warriors of pretty much any origin and fighting style:

"Pale Qartheen, black Summer Islanders, copper-skinned Dothraki, Tyroshi with blue beards, Lamb Men, Jogos Nhai, sullen Braavosi, brindle-skinned half-men from the jungles of Sothoryos-from the ends of the world they came to die in Daznak's pit."

A Dance with Dragons

There's also this scene from the show that you may remember. It's the first pit-fight that was held in Meereen after Daenerys reopened the pits, and you can both see that there are warriors of various styles in there, and the game-master announces it at the very beginning as well. As well as this one, in which Daario Naharis, a former champion of the fighting pits, tells Daenerys how in the pits he learned to fight in various styles, and he even mentions "Westerosi knight" as one of them.

Now, my point with all this is that while Khrazz was probably familiar with the style that Barristan was using because he is a pit-fighter and he had witnessed dozens of different styles in his life, as well as being younger and faster, he did not know how to deal with armor which led to his death while Selmy wasn't even really trying very hard. You would have to make a case for Mindy knowing how to deal with armor, or we can't go off assuming that she would fare much better than Khrazz did against Barristan.

If you want quotes from the book regarding anything that I had said thus far just ask and I will provide.

But can it be knocked off? We see Sandor put it on in the show and it doesn't seem like it's fastened so I doubt it will be that hard for Hit Girl to remove.

Well there's only this instance that I recall, when Sandor is seen removing his helm, and it doesn't show it very well because they only show it when the helm is already half-off:

No Caption Provided

I would assume that theoretically it COULD be knocked off, but it would be very hard.

For comparison, there's one instance from the book, where Jaime Lannister is knocked off his horse in a joust (by Sandor, by the way). He fell so hard that his helm twisted and dented and he couldn't get it off. A loose helmet would have just fallen off I would imagine:

"Jaime Lannister was back on his feet, but his ornate lion helmet had been twisted around and dented in his fall, and now he could not get it off."

A Game of Thrones

Now, I know that it isn't Sandor's helm and maybe Sandor's helm is different, but there isn't much evidence to show otherwise. However, in the GIF from my previous post where Sandor is shown to open his helmet's visor, you can see that his helm is connected to his gorget (neck-piece) so it won't be at all easy knocking it off either way. Even if she does, though, she would have to get in really close to Sandor which would be hard to begin with given his reach advantage, and will make her an easy target to a devastating punch, kick, bash or anything of the sort, which would send her reeling backwards and leave her open for a finishing blow.

Her sword wich can extend into a spear is more than long enough to make up for the height difference, plus she has a dozen thowing knives she could use to kill him from a distance and that's assumeing she can't knock off the helmet or get through the armor.

Yeah I was talking about this spear, Sandor's own sword looks to be just as long. Maybe Mindy's spear is a little longer overall but the difference is that while Mindy has to hold her spear from the middle, making its reach 50% smaller, Sandor holds his sword by the hilt which doesn't hamper its reach at all. Along with his height advantage, it's safe to say she would be kept at a good enough distance from him.

Regarding the throwing knives, well I was actually looking forward for you bringing it up. Sandor has a very feat of dodging a throwing knife actually:

"The Tickler shrugged, straightened, and reached a hand behind his head to rub the back of his neck. Everything seemed to happen at once then; Sandor lurched to his feet, Polliver drew his longsword, and the Tickler's hand whipped around in a blur to send something silver flashing across the common room. If the Hound had not been moving, the knife might have cored the apple of his throat; instead it only grazed his ribs, and wound up quivering in the wall near the door."

A Storm of Swords

So let's break this down: Not only did this throw come by surprise, and the man who threw it was described to have whipped his arm at blur speed, it was from very close range too (Sandor sat facing the Tickler across a dinner table). And also, Sandor was heavily drunk at this moment, as stated only two paragraphs after this last quote (again if you want to see the quote for yourself all you need to do is ask). And despite all that, he dodged it. Well not completely but partially, but it is enough nonetheless.

Another thing is, that Hit-Girl would have to throw her knife at a very small target. Hitting a guy's crotch is nice but that doesn't mean she can aim it perfectly into Sandor's helm while he is moving (that guy in your GIF wasn't exactly moving), and moreover, due to the height difference, the angle of her throw would be very awkward. To explain what I mean by that last remark, I illustrated it, using my inhuman MS Paint skillz:

No Caption Provided

Hope that makes it clear, lol. If both are upright, her throw would hit the steel inside the long visor. If she wants to hit his face, she would have to throw the knife in a straight line, and that would require her to jump pretty high, which would hamper her aim (or for Sandor to crouch, and she would have to bring him to his knees first).

True, but Hit Girl is smart and will not try to beat Sandor in a straight up CQC fight after seeing what he can do. Instead she will tire him out then use various tactics to wear him down to kill him (more on strategy next post).

Are you sure that it's in-character for her? I mean, she didn't do it against Mother Russia, and I assume she already knew what she can do. From what I gather, Hit-Girl is more the straightforward type, not really the one to use clever tactics to tire her opponent out before engaging. Even arrogant if I would say so.

Or at all, Hit Girl can aim dodge she can easily dodge a blow from a sword that big. Also it'll take 2 clean hits from Sandor to kill her. One for the armor and one for her, and I highly doubt Sandor can get two clean hits on Hit Girl.

Well aim-dodging is one thing, but it's not like she's untouchable in battle. Mother Russia beat her pretty bad. And I wouldn't say that Sandor would need 2 clean hits at all. Hit-Girl doesn't wear hardened steel plate, she's wearing a ballistic vest. Ballistic vests are bullet-proof, but they can be easily punctured by melee weapons. As you can see in this video, a bullet-proof vest can be easily punctured even with a small pocket-knife. It's simply another type of resistance.

If you can prove otherwise I have a counter ready up my sleeve but I'll save it for now.

That is true, but Hit Girl being so small is not a bad thing as she is more agile meaning she is even harder to hit.

Not saying she isn't more agile than Sandor, she obviously is, but again I'll say that doesn't make her untouchable. Mother Russia tagged her multiple times, and she didn't seem any more agile than Sandor honestly.

True she will have to get in close eventually but not right away. And Sandor has to do the same.

Sandor doesn't really have to get in too close, his reach advantage sees to that. For example, here he kills a man (a grown man, taller than Mindy obviously) who is too far away from Sandor to even reach him:

No Caption Provided

Like I said earlier Russia seems to be stronger than Sandor and her beating did not even KO Mindy, I doubt Sandor's ounch could do much damage.

Except he won't be punching, he will be cutting. And if it gets to the point of him throwing a punch, then yeah Hit-Girl probably won't be KO'd, but she will be at least momentarily disoriented, and honestly that's all the Hound really needs.

Grabbing Hit Girl by the neck would be harder than hitting her with a sword.

Eh, he's welcome to do whichever, I don't mind lol.

All in all I think Hit Girl is too fast for Sandor and has more ways to win, like knocking of his helmet, aiming for the gap in his helmet, wearing down his armor or completely disarming him (which Sandor can't do to her since she is too fast and uses what amounts to 2 swords) which would give her the ability to do a whole lot of other things.

Well, here is my breakdown:

Hit-Girl is fast and agile, but by no means untouchable. Slower opponents like Mother Russia have tagged her in the past, and Sandor isn't at all slow either (at least nothing to suggest that he is slower than Mother Russia), so him tagging her eventually is inevitable. The difference between him and Mother Russia is, that Sandor is using a sword, and when he tags Mindy it will probably be either a killing blow or a deep cut. Mindy's best option is going for the helmet, but it still offers Sandor great protection, and aiming a throwing-knife through the visor won't be easy, and considering the height differences it would have to be done from a very awkward angle. What's more is that Sandor has dodged throwing-knives in the past from very close range and while he was drunk. Her only other option is going for the gaps in the armor, but unless she knows the properties and weaknesses of plate armor that won't be easy at all as even extremely experienced fighters have problems against enemies clad in full plate if they don't know how to deal with it. If she tries to knock Sandor's helm off, or just get in very close for any reason, she will be an easy target for a powerful blow that would at the very least send her reeling backwards and leave an opening for a finishing blow.

That's about it for now, let's see what you come up with.

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#21 Posted by JediXMan (42397 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#22 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by BullPR (5858 posts) - - Show Bio

Please T4V.

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#24 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Sorry, I've been busy. I will make my counter within a week, then after that thing should go by faster (should).

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#26 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by cpt_nice (9874 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#28 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Counters done. Will add strategy and counter to your strategy later (tommorow at the lastest). But you can work on your counters to my post now.

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#31 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2: Counters

As I said, that wasn't Sandor's best strength feat yet. As another example, Sandor has the confirmed strength of at least 4 men:

Now, I don't have the means to calc either this feat or Mother Russia's to see which is better, but either way I wouldn't place them too far apart.

Alright, I would agree on this.

Well yeah, Mindy sure can take a beating. She has impressive endurance. But, it's not like she laughed those hits off, she was definitely disoriented and really shaken by them. Which allowed Mother Russia to keep on beating on her mercilessly without Mindy being able to react.

But after Russia gave Mindy just 1 second to gain her senses Mindy was back in offense mode.

No Caption Provided

IIRC, Mindy was only able to fight back when Mother Russia was distracted by other people, right? Here, there's nothing to distract Sandor.

The only reason Russia was able to pummel Mindy is because she was fast enough to counter her first attack, which I doubt Sandor can do.

No Caption Provided

And if that happens Mindy can just use her throwing knives as a distaction, even though Sandor may be able to dodge it, it will buy her at least 1 second.

And for the record, Brienne isn't just a girl, she's a warrior of great prowess. She's stronger than most men and has very good skill too. Moreover, a second before that she had punched Sandor in the one place where a man does NOT want to be punched, I'm sure you know what I mean. But if you want another one, here you go:

Okay. So getting punched by Sandor is as bad as getting punched by Russia, Mindy hpcan get up from either hit. Anyway, like you said this isn't a fist fight so lets move on.

I will answer these 2 questions together. Stabbing through steel plate armor is not too possible, but you'd still have a better chance at stabbing through it than slicing or cutting through it. Knights clad in steel plate armor (well Sandor isn't a knight but whatever, lol) were basically the tanks of medieval warfare, historically knights in full plate rarely died on the battlefield. Steel plate armor has weak spots in the joints (armpits for example), but they're very narrow gaps, and are protected by chainmail and hard leather worn beneath the plate, so although they aren't as guarded as areas covered by the plate itself, they're still not too vulnerable.

Well, Mindy is stronger than a normal knight. As I have shown Mindy can cut clean through a person's leg with ease in one strike, now a knight with a longswprd may be able to do the same, but her blade is thiner and lighter than longswords so it is more impressive.

As for the armor withstanding multiple slices, well even if Mindy had the strength to potentially cut or stab through steel plate armor, her blade would break sooner than the armor would be penetrated.

Her blade is stronger than most. It can slice though limbs and skulls and stab through a woman and a thick door.

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And it did not sustain any damage or get blunt at all, and this was at the start of the series she cuts off heads repeatedly. But now that you mention the gaps, that would be much easier to aim for and cut through and will probably be Hit-Girl's targets.

Here are examples from the books of plate armor resisting cuts. It's not Sandor's armor specifically, but Sandor's armor is as good as any if not better, since Sandor is stronger and can use heavier armor:

So the armor can tank 2 hits from a normal sword? Not sure who is using the sword but I am pretty sure Mindy has more cutting power. Eitherway, her aiming for the gaps in the armor is more likely.

There are more examples but these should suffice for now. If you want to know, it's from a fight between Ser Barristan Selmy and Khrazz, who is a champion of the fighting pits in Meereen (essentially a gladiator).

How strong is he?

There is, however, another quote from this fight that I would like to mention. It shows the importance of knowing how to fight an armored opponent:

Hit Girl definitely knows about the gaps in armor and probably even how it, seeing as how she knows everything Big Daddy deemed important about being a super hero, which includes knowledge on action movies, firearms, historical events, escaping a box under water etc. she is skilled at things as dark as torture and which body parts she can cut out.

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Plus given the fact that she uses modern body armor (which has it's own weak spots), is skilled in sword martial arts and the fact gaps plate armor isn't exactly top sectret stuff (I can look it up on Google), I am pretty sure Hit Girl should know where the gaps generally are, and if not she is smart enough to attack the joints (which is the back of the knee, elbows, neck shoulders and hips) which is where the gaps in the armor would be.

Now, this is important because you mentioned that Mindy will get accustomed to Sandor's style quicker than the other way around. Now, that might very well be true, but the above quote serves to prove that it doesn't matter.

Okay then. Wasn't a major point anyways.

It is mentioned in the beginning of the fight that Khrazz was as fast as any man that Barristan had ever seen (and he's seen a lot of fighters, including people like Jaime Lannister who perceives his opponents in combat in slow-motion), and he was also 40 years younger and far bigger and heavier than Selmy.

But he probably isn't an aim dodger though.

There's also this scene from the show that you may remember. It's the first pit-fight that was held in Meereen after Daenerys reopened the pits, and you can both see that there are warriors of various styles in there, and the game-master announces it at the very beginning as well. As well as this one, in which Daario Naharis, a former champion of the fighting pits, tells Daenerys how in the pits he learned to fight in various styles, and he even mentions "Westerosi knight" as one of them.

Now, my point with all this is that while Khrazz was probably familiar with the style that Barristan was using because he is a pit-fighter and he had witnessed dozens of different styles in his life, as well as being younger and faster, he did not know how to deal with armor which led to his death while Selmy wasn't even really trying very hard. You would have to make a case for Mindy knowing how to deal with armor, or we can't go off assuming that she would fare much better than Khrazz did against Barristan.

That is because if you look at the clip you showed me only 2 gladiators had armor, which makes sense as gladiators rarely wear armor in the real world. And 1 of the guys who had armor was stabed through the admor and killed, which means he had weak armor, and even then the man Jorah was fighting beat him because he was quicker and attacked to gaps in Jorah's armor.

If you want quotes from the book regarding anything that I had said thus far just ask and I will provide.

Nah, the TV clips are good enough.

Well there's only this instance that I recall, when Sandor is seen removing his helm, and it doesn't show it very well because they only show it when the helm is already half-off:

It didn't seem like it was fastened on.

I would assume that theoretically it COULD be knocked off, but it would be very hard.

With the open snout and it being unfastened with Hit Girl's agility I don't think it will be that hard.

For comparison, there's one instance from the book, where Jaime Lannister is knocked off his horse in a joust (by Sandor, by the way). He fell so hard that his helm twisted and dented and he couldn't get it off. A loose helmet would have just fallen off I would imagine:

Okay. But his brother the Mountain would probably have more similar armor and you can see him take of his helmet here (2:25) and he just pulls it out, no rope or anything and. In the same clip we see Sir Loras put on his helmet and he puts it on like a metal hat.

Now, I know that it isn't Sandor's helm and maybe Sandor's helm is different, but there isn't much evidence to show otherwise.

Well I do think his helmet can knock offe based on the showing above.

However, in the GIF from my previous post where Sandor is shown to open his helmet's visor, you can see that his helm is connected to his gorget (neck-piece) so it won't be at all easy knocking it off either way.

Hit Girl won't be knocking it off just by hitting it hard, she will be using the open snout which has an opening for her use, i.e as leverage to pull off the helmet using her sword.

Even if she does, though, she would have to get in really close to Sandor which would be hard to begin with given his reach advantage, and will make her an easy target to a devastating punch, kick, bash or anything of the sort, which would send her reeling backwards and leave her open for a finishing blow.

She wouldn't be close enough for Sandor to punch her, and kicking her would be slower than using the sword. And if Sandor does try to go for a body blow he would face the skill and agility of Mindy which she can use to counter the attack, an example of this here.

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Yeah I was talking about this spear, Sandor's own sword looks to be just as long. Maybe Mindy's spear is a little longer overall but the difference is that while Mindy has to hold her spear from the middle, making its reach 50% smaller, Sandor holds his sword by the hilt which doesn't hamper its reach at all. Along with his height advantage, it's safe to say she would be kept at a good enough distance from him.

Alright fair enough, the reach advantage is yours. However if Hit Girl gets it close in the inside (past his sword) it would become a distadvantage as he would require more space to move and more flexability which he lacks in armor, while Hit Girl can use her knives and move around him just fine.

Regarding the throwing knives, well I was actually looking forward for you bringing it up. Sandor has a very feat of dodging a throwing knife actually:

Alright let's see what you got.

So let's break this down: Not only did this throw come by surprise, and the man who threw it was described to have whipped his arm at blur speed,

Any knife thrower can throw at blur speeds.

it was from very close range too (Sandor sat facing the Tickler across a dinner table). And also, Sandor was heavily drunk at this moment, as stated only two paragraphs after this last quote (again if you want to see the quote for yourself all you need to do is ask). And despite all that, he dodged it. Well not completely but partially, but it is enough nonetheless.

He was also not wearing armor and he still got hit. Not to mention Mindy can throw multiple knives at him making it very hard to doge.

Another thing is, that Hit-Girl would have to throw her knife at a very small target. Hitting a guy's crotch is nice but that doesn't mean she can aim it perfectly into Sandor's helm while he is moving (that guy in your GIF wasn't exactly moving),

Perfectly? No, but she has 12 tries and in the GIF she used a butterfly knife in here she has throwing knives (much easier and more accurate to throw). Also, if things pan out and Hit Girl removes his helmet her target would be much larger and easier to hit.

and moreover, due to the height difference, the angle of her throw would be very awkward. To explain what I mean by that last remark, I illustrated it, using my inhuman MS Paint skillz:

Okay, lol.

Hope that makes it clear, lol. If both are upright, her throw would hit the steel inside the long visor. If she wants to hit his face, she would have to throw the knife in a straight line, and that would require her to jump pretty high, which would hamper her aim

You are forgetting one thing, the location. We are at the bottom of a mountain which slopes upward, that can give Hit Girl a better line of sight.

(or for Sandor to crouch, and she would have to bring him to his knees first).

One common opening in armor is behind the knees, which if stabed would make Sandor kneel.

Are you sure that it's in-character for her? I mean, she didn't do it against Mother Russia, and I assume she already knew what she can do. From what I gather, Hit-Girl is more the straightforward type, not really the one to use clever tactics to tire her opponent out before engaging. Even arrogant if I would say so.

It will be straightforward but it won't be a pure CQC fight. I'll explain it in detail in my strategy but basically Hit Girl attacks the gaps in the armor using her agility that wears Sandor down (it won't happen all in one go, everytime Sandor strikes Mindy would dodge and leap back then go back to attacking the gaps) then she knocks of the helmet and stabs his head off or throws knives at his face. Also against Mother Russia Hit Girl had no space to move, against Frank she fought like this.

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Which is the fighting style she will use here except she would attack the gaps instead of purely dodging (she didn't need to here since Frank is armorless). And if you think Mindy just charges in dodging and slicing without tactical thought (not aiming for gaps), you' be wrong, she is very smart you can see an example of this here

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Well aim-dodging is one thing, but it's like she's untouchable in battle.

It's not just aim dodging though. She's done more than just moving her body out of the way. She has aim dodged point blank outside a moving van.

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She lifted half her body up before that guy couldnpull the trigger. This does not mean she is untouchable though, but she is more than quick enough to dodge Sandor's attacks even at close range.

Mother Russia beat her pretty bad. And I wouldn't say that Sandor would need 2 clean hits at all. Hit-Girl doesn't wear hardened steel plate, she's wearing a ballistic vest. Ballistic vests are bullet-proof, but they can be easily punctured by melee weapons.

Evertime she clears a room of thugs she never gets tagged once until the boss arrives. Even when said thugs beat Kickass' butt, she still stomps them without getting touched. In the movie Hit Girl had no space to move and Russia used her companions as shields, in the comic Hit Girl also had no space to move and Russia was faster, fast enough to doge Mindy's attack.

As you can see in this video, a bullet-proof vest can be easily punctured even with a small pocket-knife. It's simply another type of resistance.

Pretty sure that armor didn't have its plate, which is usually made of thick metal or ceramic. Not sure how a small pen can punch through a bullet resistant vest when bullets use piercing damage as well.

If you can prove otherwise I have a counter ready up my sleeve but I'll save it for now

Okay, look forward to it.

Not saying she isn't more agile than Sandor, she obviously is, but again I'll say that doesn't make her untouchable. Mother Russia tagged her multiple times, and she didn't seem any more agile than Sandor honestly.

Russia in comics isbagile enough to doge Mindy and is pretty quick. In the movies as I said Mindy had little space to move around.

Sandor doesn't really have to get in too close, his reach advantage sees to that. For example, here he kills a man (a grown man, taller than Mindy obviously) who is too far away from Sandor to even reach him:

He'll still have to be close enough to attack which Mindy can avoid. Plus like I said if Mindy goes in too close his size advantage is no longer there. Also hitting a grown man from a distance is much easier than hitting a kid.

Except he won't be punching, he will be cutting and if it gets to the point of him throwing a punch, then yeah Hit-Girl probably won't be KO'd, but she will be at least momentarily disoriented, and honestly that's all the Hound really needs.

True, if he can land it without her countering or dodging.

Counters: Strategy/Breakdown

Hit-Girl is fast and agile, but by no means untouchable. Slower opponents like Mother Russia have tagged her in the past,

Covered this. There is context to the fight which limited Mindy's movements and comic Russia is quick.

and Sandor isn't at all slow either (at least nothing to suggest that he is slower than Mother Russia), so him tagging her eventually is inevitable.

Sure, it will happen eventually if they kept fighting. But before she can take him out? I doubt it.

The difference between him and Mother Russia is, that Sandor is using a sword, and when he tags Mindy it will probably be either a killing blow or a deep cut.

It'll probably just be a deep cut the dirst hit thanks to Mindy's body armor, but not a cut that will take her out of the fight.

Mindy's best option is going for the helmet, but it still offers Sandor great protection,

Yes, but nothing to suggest it can't be jerked off via hit to the snout or to the inside of the snout.

and aiming a throwing-knife through the visor won't be easy, and considering the height differences it would have to be done from a very awkward angle.

The mountain slope can fix that. Plus she can try doing it multiple times.

What's more is that Sandor has dodged throwing-knives in the past from very close range and while he was drunk.

He was also not slowed down by armor, was tagged and only doged one knife not 2 at a time or possibly 12 in a row.

Her only other option is going for the gaps in the armor, but unless she knows the properties and weaknesses of plate armor that won't be easy at all as even extremely experienced fighters have problems against enemies clad in full plate if they don't know how to deal with it.

The pit fighter wasn't unsed to dealing with tough armor. Hit Girl is knowledgeable on many things, I would be suprised if she didn't know how to deal with plate arnor even just for trivia.

If she tries to knock Sandor's helm off, or just get in very close for any reason, she will be an easy target for a powerful blow that would at the very least send her reeling backwards and leave an opening for a finishing blow.

If Hit Girl got in close enough for a punch or kick Sandor's sword would be cumbersome (it takes more space to use a big sword and swing it would leave him open) and Mindy could still counter or dodge the blow, if she got close enough for Sandor to attack with just a sword she can dodge the attack or use the surroundings (like sand in the face) or her knives to distact Sandor.

My Strategy

As you said Hit Girl can primarily do 2 things to win (either one on their own can give her the victory). Those two things are: 1. Aim for the head which she can do by aiming inside the helmet or by knocking off the helmet by attacking the snout inside and outside. 2. Aim for the gaps in the armor, which she most probably knows about, and even if she doesn't she can aim for the joints (which she obviously knows about) which is almost the same thing, even though the gaps are protected she can pierce them easily as she can stab though people and doors with ease (as I have shown).

She can possibly wear down the armor, disarm Sandor or do a high risk sword manoeuvre as well but that is very risky and not very likely for her to do.

Anyway the strategy would be using both tactics at once, first she would spar with Sandor for a bit testing him out, then she would aim for Sandor's joints (she would shee where they are in the armor though thier spar) stabbing and slicing at them hurting Sandor and injuring him, at the same time she dodges his attacks and tires him out, then after Sandor is tired and injured, she goes inside of Sandor's arms range (where it would be hard for him to use his sword) and aims for the helmet then knocks it off, after she knocks it off she cuts off Sandor's head, slaying the Hound.

It doesn't have to specifically go that way for her to win. For example even if she does not knock off his helmet or hits his joints, and just tires Sandor out (without even injuring him) she can aim for the inside of his helmet and throw 12 knives without him dodging (she wouldn't land all 12 but only one is needed for the death blow. But that is the best way for her to win and it is not unlikely.

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#32 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Mind if I edit a few feats in the counters section as well?

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#34 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Not at all. Just don't forget to tag me when you're done mate.

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#35 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Edited by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Edited by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 3: Second rebuttals

But after Russia gave Mindy just 1 second to gain her senses Mindy was back in offense mode.

Which is one second more than Sandor will give her.

The only reason Russia was able to pummel Mindy is because she was fast enough to counter her first attack, which I doubt Sandor can do.

Well as you have seen, even a drunk Sandor could react to a man throwing a knife at him from across a dinner table. He also dodges very often in combat:

Example 1:

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Example 2:

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Example 3:

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Example 4:

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Example 5:

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I can find more (in the books too), but 5 is more than enough to prove it's consistent.

Now, Mindy is probably quicker than those people, but considering how easily Sandor dodged all of them, I bet he could dodge Mindy too, even if it would be a tad harder. Even if he doesn't dodge her, his armor will keep him unharmed. He can literally charge headfirst into her blade and come out unscathed.

Also, I don't think you have proof that Mother Russia is faster than Sandor. I mean, she dodged all of 1 or 2 hits from Hit-Girl, that's not really much.

And if that happens Mindy can just use her throwing knives as a distaction, even though Sandor may be able to dodge it, it will buy her at least 1 second.

Well he can either dodge them, or he can just ignore them, they ain't getting past that armor.

Okay. So getting punched by Sandor is as bad as getting punched by Russia, Mindy hpcan get up from either hit. Anyway, like you said this isn't a fist fight so lets move on.

Yes except a punch from Sandor will be followed by Mindy getting cleaved in half, or stabbed through the heart.

Well, Mindy is stronger than a normal knight. As I have shown Mindy can cut clean through a person's leg with ease in one strike, now a knight with a longswprd may be able to do the same, but her blade is thiner and lighter than longswords so it is more impressive.

Stronger than a knight? I really doubt that. Cutting through limbs is pretty casual if you have a sharp enough blade and the right angle. A good example would be the Japanese Katana: It is lighter and thinner than a medieval longsword/broadsword, but it is very sharp and can cut through limbs with ease, even easier than longswords or broadswords. Mindy cutting through limbs only means that her weapon is sharp enough to do so. I mean, sure, she's definitely stronger than the average girl, but tougher than a grown man who trained his whole life to be a warrior? Nah. Either way, her blade being thin only strengthens my claim that her sword will break before she gets through the armor, which is made of hardened steel.

Her blade is stronger than most. It can slice though limbs and skulls and stab through a woman and a thick door.

Well most blades can do that. Her blades is as strong as most, not stronger.

And it did not sustain any damage or get blunt at all, and this was at the start of the series she cuts off heads repeatedly. But now that you mention the gaps, that would be much easier to aim for and cut through and will probably be Hit-Girl's targets.

Cutting off heads is as easy as cutting limbs, even easier I think. A 16 year-old Jaime Lannister scored his first kill by doing just that.

I will get into detail as to why Hit-Girl won't be aiming for the gaps soon.

So the armor can tank 2 hits from a normal sword? Not sure who is using the sword but I am pretty sure Mindy has more cutting power. Eitherway, her aiming for the gaps in the armor is more likely.

It didn't just tank those hits. It rendered them completely useless. Of course there are several other times in this very fight (as well as others) where it's mentioned how Khrazz's cuts did nothing against armor, but they're not very different from the two that I provided anyway.

And again, Mindy's "cutting power" is probably not equal to that of a grown man, certainly not greater. You have the wrong idea of the amount of strength required to cut off a head or a limb with a sharp enough blade, which makes you overestimate Mindy's strength.

How strong is he?

As strong as any 20~30 year old man who has been fighting for his life since the day he learned to walk pretty much I guess.

Hit Girl definitely knows about the gaps in armor and probably even how it, seeing as how she knows everything Big Daddy deemed important about being a super hero,

Why would knowledge on medieval plate armor be important for a modern-day superhero? It would actually make more sense that a warrior who lives in a medieval-like era would know the properties and weaknesses of armor, and he still didn't.

which includes knowledge on action movies,

How does that help her?

firearms,

OK that definitely doesn't help her.

historical events

That is a very broad term. Does it specifically say she learned the properties of late medieval armor?

escaping a box under water

Lol that's very nice but what good does it do her in this fight?

she is skilled at things as dark as torture and which body parts she can cut out.

Again, nothing to do with our battle here.

Plus given the fact that she uses modern body armor (which has it's own weak spots), is skilled in sword martial arts and the fact gaps plate armor isn't exactly top sectret stuff (I can look it up on Google), I am pretty sure Hit Girl should know where the gaps generally are, and if not she is smart enough to attack the joints (which is the back of the knee, elbows, neck shoulders and hips) which is where the gaps in the armor would be.

Modern day armor is not even remotely similar to medieval armor. And everything you said her is just your guess and speculation, we can't take this for a fact. Looking it up on Google is nice and all but she doesn't have the prep time for it here.

But he probably isn't an aim dodger though.

Maybe he would have been if they had guns, lol. But the book did say that:

"The pit fighter was fast, blazing fast, as quick as any man Ser Barristan had ever fought. In those big hands, the arakh became a whistling blur, a steel storm that seemed to come at the old knight from three directions at once."

A Dance with Dragons

So safe to say that he is definitely very fast.

That is because if you look at the clip you showed me only 2 gladiators had armor, which makes sense as gladiators rarely wear armor in the real world. And 1 of the guys who had armor was stabed through the admor and killed, which means he had weak armor, and even then the man Jorah was fighting beat him because he was quicker and attacked to gaps in Jorah's armor.

Well in the book it's actually explicitly specified that armor was never used in the pits:

"No one wore armor in the fighting pits. It was blood the crowds came for: death, dismemberment, and shrieks of agony, the music of scarlet sands."

A Dance with Dragons

And the show (and live action as a whole) is full of historical inaccuracies regarding armor. A blade piercing or cutting through plate armor is completely unrealistic, and would have never happened in the books. It's just more visually satisfying to see it happening on-screen that looking at two people trying to stab each other's armpits.

Also Jorah isn't an example for anything. He's old and slow.

It didn't seem like it was fastened on.

No way to find out for sure really.

With the open snout and it being unfastened with Hit Girl's agility I don't think it will be that hard.

Okay. But his brother the Mountain would probably have more similar armor and you can see him take of his helmet here (2:25) and he just pulls it out, no rope or anything and. In the same clip we see Sir Loras put on his helmet and he puts it on like a metal hat.

Well if knocking helmets off was that easy it would have happened all the time. I only remember it happening once throughout the 6 seasons.

Well I do think his helmet can knock offe based on the showing above.

On the other hand we have Jaime Lannister who was sent flying off a galloping horse and crashed so hard on the ground that his helmet actually twisted and dented, but it still remained on his head. Considering the show is very inaccurate with depictions of armor in general, I would take the showings from the books as far more credible indication.

Hit Girl won't be knocking it off just by hitting it hard, she will be using the open snout which has an opening for her use, i.e as leverage to pull off the helmet using her sword.

Well that is a very tricky move. She will have to:

  1. Think about it in the middle of the fight, assuming Sandor won't kill her before she does.
  2. Get in close enough, bypassing his sword.
  3. Actually pull off this tricky maneuver without getting punched, kicked, bashed, slashed or stabbed.

And on top of all that, taking someone's helmet off in a fight isn't as easy as you think.

Each of those three phases above is tricky and risky enough by itself, all three together are VERY hard, really borderline impossible to execute.

She wouldn't be close enough for Sandor to punch her, and kicking her would be slower than using the sword. And if Sandor does try to go for a body blow he would face the skill and agility of Mindy which she can use to counter the attack, an example of this here.

So you're saying that she can get close enough to remove his helm and still be out of reach of his kicks and punches, despite her being a little girl and him being a 2 meters tall man? Either way, too far for his punches/kicks means close enough for his sword, which means bad news for Mindy.

That counter move is very nice, but he won't just let her climb on top of him, it's not a judo match. He will either throw her off or stab her with his knife. Besides, even if she manages to get him to the floor somehow, it's not like he's helpless or anything:

Here you can see him fending off and beating 2 men while flat on his back:

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Alright fair enough, the reach advantage is yours. However if Hit Girl gets it close in the inside (past his sword) it would become a distadvantage as he would require more space to move and more flexability which he lacks in armor, while Hit Girl can use her knives and move around him just fine.

Plate armor hampering maneuverability is actually a common misconception, as you can see here.

Anyway, the key word in this argument here is "if". IF Hit-Girl can get inside his sword. IF she does, she's open for a punch, a kick, or a stab with the knife. She will have a much smaller chance of dodging IF she does indeed get close enough to render his sword useless.

Any knife thrower can throw at blur speeds.

Well Hit-Girl didn't appear as a blur when she threw her knives. Not when she threw her knife into that guy's crotch, and not here either:

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He was also not wearing armor and he still got hit. Not to mention Mindy can throw multiple knives at him making it very hard to doge.

Wearing armor wouldn't have changed the outcome honestly (also remember he was heavily drunk). Either way, in the GIF above it is shown that Mindy doesn't really throw knives repeatedly in blinding speeds. She threw 3 knives in the space of 3 seconds, not really impressive. Sandor doesn't have to dodge even, he can let his armor protect him, she might as well be throwing Skittles at him.

Perfectly? No, but she has 12 tries and in the GIF she used a butterfly knife in here she has throwing knives (much easier and more accurate to throw). Also, if things pan out and Hit Girl removes his helmet her target would be much larger and easier to hit.

Well is there any evidence of her using throwing-knives with better accuracy? The only time she used throwing knives that I have seen is the one posted above, and she wasn't at all impressive. She actually threw all her knives right at Mother Russia's protected arm. She didn't even realize Mother Russia was unaffected by it until she wasted all her knives. It is evident by the fact that Mother Russia didn't even move her arm.

You are forgetting one thing, the location. We are at the bottom of a mountain which slopes upward, that can give Hit Girl a better line of sight.

Wherever Hit-Girl tries to go, the Hound will follow. He won't let her gain the higher ground, he's not stupid. Besides, she hasn't the accuracy feats to suggest she can hit such a small, moving target, even if she compensates for the height difference.

Either way, regarding all this knife-throwing thing, dodging a throwing knife isn't really that hard even by real-world standards. There's a whole sport dedicated to dodging things that are being thrown at you, it's called "Dodgeball" lol.

One common opening in armor is behind the knees, which if stabed would make Sandor kneel.

Yes, IF.

It will be straightforward but it won't be a pure CQC fight. I'll explain it in detail in my strategy but basically Hit Girl attacks the gaps in the armor using her agility that wears Sandor down (it won't happen all in one go, everytime Sandor strikes Mindy would dodge and leap back then go back to attacking the gaps) then she knocks of the helmet and stabs his head off or throws knives at his face. Also against Mother Russia Hit Girl had no space to move, against Frank she fought like this.

Well, in the movie, Hit-Girl had plenty of space to move about when fighting Mother Russia, and she didn't really do it. Also, in her fight with Frank, she actually started off by carelessly charging in and getting kicked in the face:

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The difference is that Sandor, unlike Frank, won't give her the chance to get back up.

And after doing those cool parkour moves that you posted she jumped at him, and after taking a few hits he easily grabbed her and pinned her against a wall:

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Which means that Sandor could do it too if she gets in close enough.

And after he threw her aside, she grabbed a knife and charged forward again, no clever tricks or anything, despite knowing exactly what Frank is capable of by that point:

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She stabbed him a couple of times, but then he beat her down again, this time so hard that she nearly fainted and her vision got all blurry:

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She would have died if not for Kick-Ass stepping in and saving her at the very last second.

Which is the fighting style she will use here except she would attack the gaps instead of purely dodging (she didn't need to here since Frank is armorless). And if you think Mindy just charges in dodging and slicing without tactical thought (not aiming for gaps), you' be wrong, she is very smart you can see an example of this here

Those three scans only show her taking advantage of specific factors, like explosives or the element of surprise, none of which she has in this fight. When starting a fight face-to-face with an opponent, she just charges in without much thought, like she did against Mother Russia and more than once against Frank, and she will do so against the Hound as well.

It's not just aim dodging though. She's done more than just moving her body out of the way. She has aim dodged point blank outside a moving van.

She lifted half her body up before that guy couldnpull the trigger. This does not mean she is untouchable though, but she is more than quick enough to dodge Sandor's attacks even at close range.

It's different though. Aim-dodging isn't the same as dodging sword strikes, or even kicks and punches. She was easily tagged by the likes of Frank and Mother Russia, neither of which have shown more speed than Sandor.

Evertime she clears a room of thugs she never gets tagged once until the boss arrives.

Well in this case, Sandor IS the boss ;)

Even when said thugs beat Kickass' butt, she still stomps them without getting touched. In the movie Hit Girl had no space to move and Russia used her companions as shields, in the comic Hit Girl also had no space to move and Russia was faster, fast enough to doge Mindy's attack.

What? In the movie she had a lot of space to move against Mother Russia. She had enough space to do a series of backflips and cartwheels before she threw her knives at her. They were fighting in some big lounge or something, sure there were some chairs and tables around but not much more than that. It was a pretty big space.

And there's no proof that Mother Russia is faster than Sandor really. Your only argument for that would be dodging a few of Mindy's blows, and that's just circular logic. She didn't even dodge all of Mindy's blows, she got tagged at least once even before Mindy took a shot of Adrenaline.

Pretty sure that armor didn't have its plate, which is usually made of thick metal or ceramic. Not sure how a small pen can punch through a bullet resistant vest when bullets use piercing damage as well.

I seriously doubt Mindy is using ceramic. From my military experience, you can barely even sit upright with this goddamn thing on, Mindy's acrobatics would be literally physically impossible to pull off if she had it on, regardless of agility or anything. Besides, it makes you look like a turtle, it's impossible not to notice it, and Mindy doesn't seem to be wearing a thick plate of ceramic.

Okay, look forward to it.

How can I refuse?

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Here you can see the Hound easily slicing two men in chain armor clean in half through the torso. Cutting through chainmail and cutting through a man's torso are each highly impressive feats on their own, slicing through both of them together with one casual blow is outright insane and superhuman. Mindy's armor is like a lump of butter for Sandor.

Russia in comics isbagile enough to doge Mindy and is pretty quick. In the movies as I said Mindy had little space to move around.

Already addressed those 2 points.

He'll still have to be close enough to attack which Mindy can avoid. Plus like I said if Mindy goes in too close his size advantage is no longer there. Also hitting a grown man from a distance is much easier than hitting a kid.

Mindy CAN avoid, but not forever. She always ends up getting tagged when fighting someone who actually knows what they're doing.

True, if he can land it without her countering or dodging.

One last time I'll say that her track record of dodging isn't good enough to rely on it happening.

Strategy:

Instead of quoting and addressing all the points you made, I will just describe my breakdown of the fight again. It didn't really change since last time, but I will be covering it more thoroughly while debunking the tactics you suggested.

As I said, the fight will start with both of them charging at each other, which is the most characteristic thing for both of them to do. This will give Sandor the immediate advantage thanks to his superior reach which will allow him to attack first, before Hit-Girl can even get close enough to attack him.

Mindy might dodge a blow or two, but will get tagged rather quickly, like she always does. The difference is, that unlike Mother Russia or Frank, Sandor is using a sword and is swinging it with enough strength to cut clean through men clad in chainmail, so a hit from him would either kill or at the very least fatally injure Mindy. Even if Mindy doesn't die immediately, she won't use clever tactics like tiring him out or anything, since she never does those kinds of things when she's in a straight-up face-to-face melee duel with someone.

Her only three options, as we both agree, are: throwing a knife through his visor, knocking off his helm to expose his head and face, or aiming her blows at the gaps in his armor.

Throwing a knife into his visor is very far-fetched considering Mindy has only one accuracy feat to talk about and it isn't remotely enough to suggest she can hit such a small target that is moving toward her. Moreover, she would have to somehow compensate for the difference in height. The easiest way to do so would be trying to get the higher ground, but the Hound won't just let her do that without pursuing her.

Knocking his helmet off would require taking many risks and isn't even possible as far as we know (there are better evidence suggesting that it isn't, than evidence suggesting that it is). If she gets close enough to do it, and close enough to render Sandor's sword useless, she will be completely exposed and frankly a very easy target to a devastating punch, kick or knife-stab.

Aiming for the gaps won't work either. For starters, she doesn't know the properties of medieval plate armor, and any attempt you made at suggesting otherwise is based solely on guesswork and assumptions, which isn't good enough to work with here, and even if she does know in theory how to counter plate armor, putting it to practice is something else entirely. And as we've seen, even experienced warriors who don't know how to counter plate armor will be completely helpless against it, even if they hold every physical advantage over their opponent. And in addition, the Hound has fought all his life against people who, just like him, know everything about plate armor. He knows what his weak spots are and how to defend them.

Anything else she tries will be completely useless. Sandor's armor basically turns him into an angry, walking concrete wall. Even if Hit-Girl has the potential strength to cut or stab through it (and there's nothing to suggest as much), her sword will break before that happens.

Mindy, in-character, is very hot-headed and often just charges into battle without testing the waters too much. She always gets tagged by people who have done nothing to suggest that they're faster than the Hound, so she will get tagged by the Hound too, and die.

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#39 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: That was quick. Will try to post soon. This is the last rebuttual you have, right?

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#41 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Will post tommorow. Seems you'vs seen the Kickass movies for this debate.

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#43 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Not really, lol. Just YouTube. But I did watch the first movie when it came out so I remember a little bit.

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#44 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 3: Counters

Which is one second more than Sandor will give her.

Then she will take it from him using her speed for knives.

Now, Mindy is probably quicker than those people, but considering how easily Sandor dodged all of them, I bet he could dodge Mindy too, even if it would be a tad harder.

The people he dodged don't seem to be on Mindy's level, this provds that in character Sandor would try to dodge but nothing to show he can dodge.

Even if he doesn't dodge her, his armor will keep him unharmed. He can literally charge headfirst into her blade and come out unscathed.

Possibly but that is why she won't be hitting his armor.

so, I don't think you have proof that Mother Russia is faster than Sandor. I mean, she dodged all of 1 or 2 hits from Hit-Girl, that's not really much.

Nothing to prove Russia is that much slower than Hit Girl either, since she has very little feats but has shown to be able to dodge Hit Girl and beat on her.

Well he can either dodge them, or he can just ignore them, they ain't getting past that armor.

If he dodges the knife that would take him off Mindy for 1 second and that's the point. Likenyou've shown Sandor likes dodging and can dodge a knife so I think he would dodge the knife dather than tank it.

Yes except a punch from Sandor will be followed by Mindy getting cleaved in half, or stabbed through the heart.

As I said him landing a punch on her seems way harder than landing a sword plus she can counter it.

Stronger than a knight? I really doubt that. Cutting through limbs is pretty casual if you have a sharp enough blade and the right angle. A good example would be the Japanese Katana: It is lighter and thinner than a medieval longsword/broadsword, but it is very sharp and can cut through limbs with ease,

I don't see the bone on that limb. And besides the Katana is more dangerous a a cutting tool than a longsword as you can see in this clip (4:41) it was just made to slice through things.

even easier than longswords or broadswords. Mindy cutting through limbs only means that her weapon is sharp enough to do so.

This sword hybrid which was designed to have better cutting power than a normal sword (2:42) could not cut through a slab of ribs in one go despite the user hitting it with a full swing (Hit Girl can cut legs with quick swings) and (1:55) got stoped by a cow's skull. You can see them cutting through the spine and pure meat (as like in your example) just fine but they are easy to cut, unlike the femur which is the strongest bone in the body which I showed Mindy cutting with ease. This isn't just the sword, it requires skill and strength too.

I mean, sure, she's definitely stronger than the average girl, but tougher than a grown man who trained his whole life to be a warrior? Nah.

Mother Russia a superhuman (yeah I know Sandor is just as strong but both are superhuman) who fits your desciption was beaten by Mindy and without BS in the comics. Plus the MMA fighter, Black Death got his hand broken by Mindy with ease (in the opener, killed a man with his finger). Oh yeah and she can completely two leg smash bones with a kick, so yeah way stronger than a knight.

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Either way, her blade being thin only strengthens my claim that her sword will break before she gets through the armor, which is made of hardened steel.

But she wouldn't be slashing directly at the armor. Plus even if one sword breaks she has a spare.

Well most blades can do that. Her blades is as strong as most, not stronger.

I doubt normal blades can do it repeatedly without getting blunt. Anyway, in the movie version of the Rasul fight Hit Girl is shown to be able to cut through a metal lamp post and a door at least coated in metal (you can see it has a metalic design and should at least be thick enough to be sound proof) which I hightly doubt normal blades can do especially with ease. This is also more evidence for Hit Girl being strong than a knight.

Cutting off heads is as easy as cutting limbs, even easier I think. A 16 year-old Jaime Lannister scored his first kill by doing just that.

Probably true, but I have already shown more impressive feats such as cutting through lamp posts or the femur.

It didn't just tank those hits. It rendered them completely useless. Of course there are several other times in this very fight (as well as others) where it's mentioned how Khrazz's cuts did nothing against armor, but they're not very different from the two that I provided anyway.

Mindy is most probably stronger than Khrazz and has ways around the armor.

And again, Mindy's "cutting power" is probably not equal to that of a grown man, certainly not greater. You have the wrong idea of the amount of strength required to cut off a head or a limb with a sharp enough blade, which makes you overestimate Mindy's strength.

I think I have already proven otherwise. I may be wrong on the strength it takes to cut a limb but the clip you showed doesn't really show otherwise.

As strong as any 20~30 year old man who has been fighting for his life since the day he learned to walk pretty much I guess.

Yeah, I am pretty sure Mindy is stronger than him.

Why would knowledge on medieval plate armor be important for a modern-day superhero?

Because it is a famous form of armor which many martial arts that use swords have been taught to bypass. Plus why would knowledge on torture (not interogation) or action moives be useful? Why would Big Daddy teach her those and not the basics of plate armor?

It would actually make more sense that a warrior who lives in a medieval-like era would know the properties and weaknesses of armor, and he still didn't.

Because he is a pit fighter, pit fighters don't deal with armor that much (if your clip is anything to go by) and like you said are never used in the books.

You miss the point of me mentioning Hit Girl's knowledge here and I'd like to clear up the reason I brought it up. It was only to show the range of her knowledge not things she will use in battle.

Modern day armor is not even remotely similar to medieval armor.

But I am pretty sure both have gaps for the joints. Mindy's modern armor is just a vest but full body armor today still have joint weakness.

And everything you said her is just your guess and speculation, we can't take this for a fact.

It may be speculation, but it is a highly probable one that is backed by how Mindy and Big Daddy act.

Looking it up on Google is nice and all but she doesn't have the prep time for it here.

I didn't say she would look it up, I said the information on armor weakness is so available you can just Google it which again makes it very unlikely that Mindy supposedly has never done it.

Maybe he would have been if they had guns, lol. But the book did say that:

He is quick, but I wouldn't see he is in that level yet.

And the show (and live action as a whole) is full of historical inaccuracies regarding armor. A blade piercing or cutting through plate armor is completely unrealistic, and would have never happened in the books. It's just more visually satisfying to see it happening on-screen that looking at two people trying to stab each other's armpits.

Which makes is more unlikely that a pit fighter would take the time to even learn about armor.

Also Jorah isn't an example for anything. He's old and slow.

Well, compared to Mindy (who is 10-16) Sandor is old and slow.

Well if knocking helmets off was that easy it would have happened all the time. I only remember it happening once throughout the 6 seasons.

Well, most of the time (from what I have seen) in GoT when there is a street/no rules (which is a majority of fights) fight one or both of the fighters are missing a helmet or armor (in fights where both fighters wear full armor they are usually honour bound or in front of royalty) for example when The Hound fought his brother or when he fought Brienne, both times he was helmetless. Or fights like Viper vs Mountain where again they were helmetless. So it happening so only once or a few times is not highly unlikely. Plus Sandor's helmet, again is easier to remove than others because of the open snout.

On the other hand we have Jaime Lannister who was sent flying off a galloping horse and crashed so hard on the ground that his helmet actually twisted and dented, but it still remained on his head. Considering the show is very inaccurate with depictions of armor in general, I would take the showings from the books as far more credible indication.

Now I know both Jamie and Sandor were Kingsguard but I have a hard time beliveing that Jamie who is uber rich, would have armor of the same quality as Sandor's. If you take a look at Jamie's armor you can see that it is decorated and it has colour, it has goldm black and red meanwhile if you look at Sandor's armor (in the OP) it has none of that, it doesn't even seem to have a full metal breast plate (looks like leather strips with metal buttons). So yeah, I would say his brother's armor (which looks very much like Sandor's) even if it is from the show, is a much better source than Jamie's. On top of this I have watched a video of armor being placed on a knight and the helemt isn't fastened and again here in an armor that is actually used for recreation so it is legit. If you think about it it wouldn't really make sense for knights to fasten their armor, cause it is fitted to their head making it near impossible to be knocked off, they also barely have any openings in it especially one that a fist can fit through, unlike Sandor who has a huge opening (I mean just look at it, lol).

So yeah, all in all it is more likely that Sandor does not have a fastened helmet and unlikely that he has Jamie's quality of helmet. His snout is an easy target in the inside and out because of this.

Well that is a very tricky move. She will have to:

  1. Think about it in the middle of the fight, assuming Sandor won't kill her before she does.

Think about it? It is the first weakness you can see, I mentioned using it as leverage as an example but there are many other ways Mindy can go about it.

  1. Get in close enough, bypassing his sword.

Not impossible she can dodge the sword then quickly knock the helmet off, or at least hit it's snout hard enough twist it, blocking Sandor's vision.

  1. Actually pull off this tricky maneuver without getting punched, kicked, bashed, slashed or stabbed.

The maneuver would take seconds, and like I said one she is inside (like a smaller boxer getting too close to a tall one, the tall usually backs away or hugs or attacks from under things Sandor can't do) he will find it akward and harder to fight her (in boxing it's infighting, fighting inside the arms).

And on top of all that, taking someone's helmet off in a fight isn't as easy as you think.

Sandor's sepcifically shouldn't be too hard,

Each of those three phases above is tricky and risky enough by itself, all three together are VERY hard, really borderline impossible to execute.

Not really, Hit Girl has the speed, skill, inside advantage and strength to do the job and then some.

So you're saying that she can get close enough to remove his helm and still be out of reach of his kicks and punches,

Only his punches, she would be inside the rande of his kicks, but his kicks would be too slow and cumbersome.

despite her being a little girl and him being a 2 meters tall man?

Hit Girl's actress is 1.63 meters tall, not sure how tall she was 4 years ago (in Kickass 2) but she isn't that much shorter that she onky reaches his waist or something.

Either way, too far for his punches/kicks means close enough for his sword, which means bad news for Mindy.

Not exactly, she woukd be inside the range of the sword making it akward to use and out of his fist's range, since a GoT wiki said greatswords (what Sandor typically uses) are around 1.5 meters long meanwhile Sandor's arm (if he is 2 meters tall) should at the very least less be half of his height so less than one meter tall, but Sandor is holding the sword so it has a range of 2 meters (at least) so if she is an inch inside the 2 meter range she would be akward to hit but still be too far for the arms (Ithink). From that disance she can of course reach Sandor's head with her sword.

That counter move is very nice, but he won't just let her climb on top of him, it's not a judo match. He will either throw her off or stab her with his knife. Besides, even if she manages to get him to the floor somehow, it's not like he's helpless or anything:

Epic, but he was clearly at a disadvantage, being tagged by those men when normally he can dodge.

Plate armor hampering maneuverability is actually a common misconception, as you can see here.

But it is heavy which slows you down even if you can move normally.

Anyway, the key word in this argument here is "if". IF Hit-Girl can get inside his sword. IF she does, she's open for a punch, a kick, or a stab with the knife. She will have a much smaller chance of dodging IF she does indeed get close enough to render his sword useless.

And how does Sandor stop her from getting in the inside when she has superior agility and he has no shield? I mean one moment she is a room away from Hit Girl and the next you're flat on your butt.

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Well Hit-Girl didn't appear as a blur when she threw her knives. Not when she threw her knife into that guy's crotch, and not here either:

Because the camera moved with her, if you so it in realnlife it would be a blur, plus I am not sure if Chole can really throw a knife or if it's special effects (making it untrustworthy).

Wearing armor wouldn't have changed the outcome honestly (also remember he was heavily drunk).

It makes you slower due to weight and limits your field of sight.

Either way, in the GIF above it is shown that Mindy doesn't really throw knives repeatedly in blinding speeds. She threw 3 knives in the space of 3 seconds, not really impressive.

Pretty sure that GIF less than 3 seconds.

Sandor doesn't have to dodge even, he can let his armor protect him, she might as well be throwing Skittles at him.

Not if it's at the face hole. Even if she misses if she hits anywhere hear the face he will instictively dodge which Mindy can use as a distraction or she can spam the knives and tag him in the face once the helmet is off or even before that.

Well is there any evidence of her using throwing-knives with better accuracy? The only time she used throwing knives that I have seen is the one posted above, and she wasn't at all impressive.

She hit a guys crotch which is impressive, plus with a gun she can score 3 headshots in a row.

She actually threw all her knives right at Mother Russia's protected arm. She didn't even realize Mother Russia was unaffected by it until she wasted all her knives. It is evident by the fact that Mother Russia didn't even move her arm

Well she didn't miss. Plus after that scene you can clearly see that she was not expecting that (I think she even said oh come on).

Wherever Hit-Girl tries to go, the Hound will follow. He won't let her gain the higher ground, he's not stupid.

Mindy is faster than him, she runs to the higher ground and the only thing Sandor can do is follow behind. She can do gymnastics while jumping off a building so she can get to the higher ground before Sandor does.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Besides, she hasn't the accuracy feats to suggest she can hit such a small, moving target, even if she compensates for the height difference.

The opening to Sandor's helm is bigger than the guy's crotch. Hitting a moving target once in 12 chances is not impossible. This isn't even the main plan.

Either way, regarding all this knife-throwing thing, dodging a throwing knife isn't really that hard even by real-world standards. There's a whole sport dedicated to dodging things that are being thrown at you, it's called "Dodgeball" lol.

They dodge balls that move slower than knives.

Well, in the movie, Hit-Girl had plenty of space to move about when fighting Mother Russia, and she didn't really do it.

It was crowded, and in the bar she did move around when she could.

Also, in her fight with Frank, she actually started off by carelessly charging in and getting kicked in the face:

Because Frank is a middle aged balding man, she probably didn't know was a blackbelt superhuman. Once she did she changed her tune completely. Plus you can't aim dodge a spinning kick like you can a straight forward sword strike.

And after doing those cool parkour moves that you posted she jumped at him, and after taking a few hits he easily grabbed her and pinned her against a wall:

Like I said superhuman. Frank was being hit by brass knuckles (as you can see Mindy tried using a blunt apporach a different approach than last time) and was unfazed.

And after he threw her aside, she grabbed a knife and charged forward again, no clever tricks or anything,

The knife, was the clever trick, she tried speed, blunt force and now a knife.

despite knowing exactly what Frank is capable of by that point:

You make it sound like what she did was a bad idea. But Frank was fast enough to counter, too strong and too skilled that was the best idea at that point, Frank had no gaps to stab, no helmets to knock off, no stat disadvantage to exploit he was just stronger than her.

Those three scans only show her taking advantage of specific factors, like explosives or the element of surprise, none of which she has in this fight.

Still means she has a tatical brain.

When starting a fight face-to-face with an opponent, she just charges in without much thought, like she did against Mother Russia and more than once against Frank, and she will do so against the Hound as well.

In the movie both were her betters and she did use strategy, attacking Frank with knives and brass knuckles, attacking Russia from a distance, countering her attacks and getting Russia to the ground, those were all smart strategies. For exampleg she brought Russia to the ground and scaled her to get rid of the height advantage she had.

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It's different though. Aim-dodging isn't the same as dodging sword strikes, or even kicks and punches. She was easily tagged by the likes of Frank and Mother Russia, neither of which have shown more speed than Sandor.

Both are legit superhuman. Russia matches Mindy and as you've shown Frank can stop Mindy mid charge.

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Despite the fact that Mindy has all around superhuman reaction speeds. She can load a gun mid air and see the clips move in mid air.

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What? In the movie she had a lot of space to move against Mother Russia. She had enough space to do a series of backflips and cartwheels before she threw her knives at her. They were fighting in some big lounge or something, sure there were some chairs and tables around but not much more than that. It was a pretty big space.

But she did use her speed in the bar and she did do cartwheels, remember though when Mindy tried to shoot Russia she pulled a hero from beside her as a human shield, that's how crowded it was. And when Russia got too close she hot too hard to dodge as she was fast.

And there's no proof that Mother Russia is faster than Sandor really. Your only argument for that would be dodging a few of Mindy's blows, and that's just circular logic. She didn't even dodge all of Mindy's blows, she got tagged at least once even before Mindy took a shot of Adrenaline.

Russia as I have shown can match Mindy's speed so yeah she is faster than Sandor, nothing to prove otherwise.

I seriously doubt Mindy is using ceramic.

Does it matter? Sandor swings like a freaking tank.

How can I refuse?

So Sandor can one shot her, if he can even tag her woth the sword before she kills him.

Mindy CAN avoid, but not forever. She always ends up getting tagged when fighting someone who actually knows what they're doing.

She gets taged by superhumans, she dodges bullets and fodder all the time she can dodge Sandor, but Russia and Frank are fast and to an extent predict her movements (it's not an op skill, most martial artists can do it).

Counters: Strategy

Instead of quoting and addressing all the points you made, I will just describe my breakdown of the fight again.

Since it's easier to quote and I'm a lazy bum, I won't be doing that. Lol

As I said, the fight will start with both of them charging at each other, which is the most characteristic thing for both of them to do. This will give Sandor the immediate advantage thanks to his superior reach which will allow him to attack first, before Hit-Girl can even get close enough to attack him.

I mostly agree with this. Although Mindy can close the distance faster than Sandor can strike twice so it wouldn't really matter much.

Mindy might dodge a blow or two, but will get tagged rather quickly, like she always does. The difference is, that unlike Mother Russia or Frank, Sandor is using a sword and is swinging it with enough strength to cut clean through men clad in chainmail, so a hit from him would either kill or at the very least fatally injure Mindy.

Nope, she is an aim dodger who can kill groups of henchmen without getting taged. You mention her getting taged by Frank and russia like they are only as fast as Sandor when his bestbfeats are dodging sword strikes (something a normal man can do) and barely dodging a knife, which isn't enough to keep up with Mindy. You also forget the importance of skill, which both Frank and Russia has, skill can help them predict Mindy's attacks and counter them, Sandor cannot do this as he is only skilled with a sword and to him Mindy's fighting style will be too unique to predict.

Even if Mindy doesn't die immediately, she won't use clever tactics like tiring him out or anything, since she never does those kinds of things when she's in a straight-up face-to-face melee duel with someone.

Well in her fights with Russia and Frank, as I have said, she did use tactics, she even had backup plans for both. I have also shown her use her surroundings to her advantage, here is another scan but this time of her targeting a group's knees.

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Throwing a knife into his visor is very far-fetched considering Mindy has only one accuracy feat to talk about and it isn't remotely enough to suggest she can hit such a small target that is moving toward her.

A small traget bugger than a crotch that will move towards her and never be far away. Not too hard actually.

Moreover, she would have to somehow compensate for the difference in height. The easiest way to do so would be trying to get the higher ground, but the Hound won't just let her do that without pursuing her.

She would get to the higher ground before the Hound does and him pursing her won't stop her it will only keep him close.

Knocking his helmet off would require taking many risks and isn't even possible as far as we know (there are better evidence suggesting that it isn't, than evidence suggesting that it is).

Being in fights is basically taking many risks. It's uo to the voters now on whether it is possible or not, but I am pretty sure it is and it isn't too hard.

If she gets close enough to do it, and close enough to render Sandor's sword useless, she will be completely exposed and frankly a very easy target to a devastating punch, kick or knife-stab.

Nah, like I said his sword has a range of almost 2 meters, get inside that by an inch or so and it's cumbersome while his arms to punch with is less than 1 meter so he can be inside his sword yet outside his punches, his kife doesn't seem too long so I would think the same applies. As for kicks they would be more than slow enough to dodge even in a smaller space (which Hit Girl can still easily move around in).

Aiming for the gaps won't work either. For starters, she doesn't know the properties of medieval plate armor, and any attempt you made at suggesting otherwise is based solely on guesswork and assumptions, which isn't good enough to work with here, and even if she does know in theory how to counter plate armor, putting it to practice is something else entirely.

Saying she doesn't also holds no evidence and is very unlikely and again, even if she knows nothing about armor, targeting the joints is a likely tactic she would use as I have shown her targeting weak spots like cutting legs and shoulders from the joints, shoting knees and choping off heads through the neck, stabing a man's crotch and against Mother Russia hitting her major arteries and veins as you can see below.

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Also evidence of tactical thought.

And as we've seen, even experienced warriors who don't know how to counter plate armor will be completely helpless against it, even if they hold every physical advantage over their opponent.

He was a GoT pit fighter, not Hit Girl a skilled girl who can slice bones and aim dodge.

And in addition, the Hound has fought all his life against people who, just like him, know everything about plate armor. He knows what his weak spots are and how to defend them.

That may be so, but I have yet to see Sandor beat a person of equal skill to him or greater.

Anything else she tries will be completely useless. Sandor's armor basically turns him into an angry, walking concrete wall. Even if Hit-Girl has the potential strength to cut or stab through it (and there's nothing to suggest as much), her sword will break before that happens.

Covered this before, Hit Girl won't use brick tactics as well.

Mindy, in-character, is very hot-headed

Violent not hot headed, she doesn't used her anger in battle often (only doing it when Big Daddy died IIRC).

and often just charges into battle without testing the waters too much.

When I say she would test the waters, I don't mean it literally as in I don't mean she would purposefully attack Sandor just to test his skills, rather that she would charge at him, realize he is stronger and more durable than her and skilled and then will change her strategy accordingly. So I mean she initially attacks Sandor thinking she can beat him then realizing it will take more strategy, not her attacking her to gather info. My wording is just bad.

She always gets tagged by people who have done nothing to suggest that they're faster than the Hound, so she will get tagged by the Hound too, and die.

Well, we know that 1. Russia and Frank have tagged Mind. 2. Mindy is an aim dodger and has never been taged by just fodder without reason. 3. Russia and Frank are stronger and more skilled than normal thugs.

So from that we can assume they are as fast or nearly as fast as Mindy. Circular feats or not, there is nothing to prove Sandor can do the same, plus in the comics Russia needed to study Mindy which helped her predict her movements and yet she still lost, fair and square.

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#45 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Kay. In my final post I will provide a bit if answers to things that you said (without adding new feats and things, like we agreed, I will only discuss things that were brought up already).

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#47 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: So you will make counters without feats?

More like providing my own perspective on the things that you already said without providing new feats. It's mostly because I saw you focus on things from the books/the show and a lot of them are mistakes/misconceptions that are important to set right.

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#49 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by the_red_viper (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Okay now I'm worried. Lol.

Lol, maybe it will encourage you to watch the show or even read the books =P

I'm expecting you will do the same with your closing argument!

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