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#1 Edited by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

The Darkness, Jackie Estacado:

Defended by - Wyldsong:

No Caption Provided

VS

The Prototypes, Alex Mercer & James Heller:

Defended by - Pope052:

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Battlefield - Kansai International Airport (Night):

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Conditions:

  • Standard-Level Jackie, meaning Non-Fully Powered Future Jackie nor Dopple-Jackie (although several of Dopple-Jackie's feats are applicable to regular Jackie).
  • The Prototypes are at their peak. Consuming each other is permitted if it comes to that, but consuming Jackie is not.
  • Morals On, but fighting at their absolute best.
  • No Prep, nor Prior Knowledge.
  • Win by Death, or KO.

Challenge a Viner Rules:

  • For your vote to be counted at least one reason must be provided and it must not be based off the character, only the debater.
  • Regular posting, or making comments is perfectly fine. However, you are not permitted to interfere in the debate, post scans, nor start any separate debates with another user.
  • If you must correct either of us on a point or ask us a question regarding the debate, it would be appreciated if you would resort to asking either/both of us in a P.M.
  • As always, may the best man win.

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#2 Posted by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong

Here we are, so we just need to decide on who will go first and i'll wait for your response on the matter. Until then, we will leave it as it is.

Also, courtesy to @neongamewave for suggesting the idea of this battle. Seeming how he thought this would be an interesting battle, it undoubtedly should very well be.

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#3 Posted by OfficialRikudouSennin (693 posts) - - Show Bio

Alex Survived A Nuke

Alex Threw a take with 1 hand.

James took on giantic monsters and is bullet proof

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#4 Posted by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I'll let you take the first shot my friend when you get the chance=)

I am interested to see how this plays out, because I still know nothing of your guys...

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#5 Edited by homicidalmaniac (10894 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong:

Okay, i'll have to see if I could manage an opener by tomorrow but it is possible that i'll get ahead of myself. If not tomorrow, then I should have it by the next day.

@officialrikudousennin

I take it you didn't bother reading the OP, and/or you just went on and ignored it? I'll debate for them myself. So if you'd do kindly to delete your post and wait until the voting starts, we'll appreciate it.

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#7 Posted by OfficialRikudouSennin (693 posts) - - Show Bio

@homicidalmaniac: jackie gets cut in half by both prototypes nodiff alex is possiable city+Country buster enhanced by the virus lol i know both sides

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#8 Posted by OfficialRikudouSennin (693 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: i read it disallowing consuming? its whatever it was already made before :I

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#9 Edited by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

@officialrikudousennin: I understand wanting to jump in and comment, but it would be appreciated if you would delete your comments. It goes against the idea of a CaV, which is just me and him, without third party involvement. Please feel free to comment when we are done and are taking votes. I thank you ahead of time for your understanding in this.

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#10 Posted by GraniteSoldier (12745 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be a great debate, love the Prototype games, but @wyldsong is one of my boys! Ah! The torment!

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#11 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

Good luck guys!

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#12 Edited by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@officialrikudousennin:

(Sigh), you have no right to jump into the debate which is solely between two debaters that of which neither include you. Just read the debate as it goes along, and then vote accordingly at the end. By the way, if you vote for me just because i'm using Alex/Heller it won't be counted.

Finally, for the record Alex is nowhere near Country-Busting level. I'll go into detail in this debate on why both Prototypes are capable of destroying at least half of a city on their own account but that's the maximum they'd achieve.

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#14 Posted by JonSmith (4529 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be a great debate, love the Prototype games, but wyldsong is one of my boys! Ah! The torment!

Get over it, Soldier! This is the Battles Forum! There is no room for sentiment here, only VICTORY!

On topic: I'm down with this battle, best of luck to the both of you gentlemen.

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#15 Posted by Strider1992 (18501 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow @pope052 has a huge uphill battle here.

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#16 Edited by NeonGameWave (19333 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@wyldsong

Here we are, so we just need to decide on who will go first and i'll wait for your response on the matter. Until then, we will leave it as it is.

Also, courtesy to @neongamewave for suggesting the idea of this battle. Seeming how he thought this would be an interesting battle, it undoubtedly should very well be.

Thanks Pope, I truly cannot wait for this epic CaV :) Best of luck to both you and @wyldsong.

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#17 Edited by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: Thank you sir=)

And maybe I am crazy, but I talked to pope, and the consuming thing should get added back in. I want to see what happens with him coming at this full force=)

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#18 Posted by dajhonmccloud (2996 posts) - - Show Bio

OH GODD PROTOTYPE ANYDAY

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#19 Edited by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong:

Alright, apologies for the delay as I had to attend to matters outside of this but now I have finally finished my opening post, so now let's kick off this debate by firstly introducing both characters. Starting with the original, and (in my opinion) the best Prototype.

It is none other than, Alex Mercer.

The Living Embodiment of the Black-Light Virus:

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Pre-Viral Outbreak:

Before the Black-Light Virus was released and infected the entirety of Manhattan, Alex Mercer was nothing less of the head researcher of the Black-Light Virus itself, working for the Gentek Science Facility.

Alex had soon discovered that it wasn't all fine and dandy as he presumed it was, as he gained information that Gentek was murdering innocents by experiments using studies of Black-Light Virus as their excuse. Outraged, Mercer fled the city along with a vial of the virus itself that he was studying.

It wasn't long after Gentek had found out that Mercer had fled. It also didn't take long until they tracked him down, and surrounded him inside of a location named Penn Station.

Fully aware that it was impossible to escape, Alex crushed the vial containing the BlackLight and the virus went airborne. The infection spread across a large portion of Manhattan from that single vial and it soon infected the entire city with Mercer to blame.

Perhaps a debatable case of instant-karma, Alex Mercer was killed in a second.

Post-Viral Outbreak:

Indeed, Alex Mercer is dead. However, that did not include the very virus that Alex unleashed at thedeadcenter. As we all may or may not know, viruses need another living organism to host on in order to survive right?

Exactly, the virus had consumed Alex Mercer and his mind along with him. Therefore, Mercer was in control of the virus hosting on his body from there on out. Most of his memories were kept, so his goal was to set out to discover exactly what had happened to him at Penn Station.

His mind and a second life were not the only gifts the virus hosting on his body had given him, far from it in fact. To add to both of those, Alex was granted with the following abilities:

  • Super-Human Attributes(Strength, Speed, Striking Power, Durability, Etc).
  • Super-Human Aerial Mobility(Wall-Running, Gliding, Super-Jumping, Dashing, Etc).
  • Limitless Stamina(Also does not need to eat, sleep, nor breath).
  • Biological Immortality(As long as there is so much as a fraction of the Black-Light, there is Mercer).
  • Self-Regenerative Abilities(AKA, aHealing Factor).
  • Thermal Vision(Self-Explanatory. Allows Mercer to see enemies through clouded/smoked areas or even through obstacles).
  • Infected Vision(Ability to see through a person's disguise, and also used to deduce an enemy's specific location or an enemy among a large crowd of people for instance).
  • Consumption Abilities(When Alex consumes a living organism, he regains a large portion of health along with the abilities of whatever he consumed).
  • Shape-Shifting Abilities(That of which, i'll get into detail with in later posts).

Of course, all of this is too good to be true. There is of course a weakness that comes along with the goods. Fortunately for Alex, you cannot possibly exploit the weakness without prior knowledge, prep time, and/or specific access to it yourself.

It is known as the Blood-Tox Gaswhich is designed to kill anyone/anything infected with the Black-Light Virus, while conveniently being completely harmless to any non-infected:

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All portions of the Blood-Tox are all stored in highly protected military bases, so in order even to get a sample you'll need to be able to solo a large portion of the army along with their massive fire-power and/or be able to bypass their alarm systems. Which i'm not saying Jackie could not do, but the thought wouldn't cross his mind to try in the first place.

Alright, now that the descriptions are out of the way i'll go into detail with the abilities listed for Alex. I cannot provide a video for everything, but I will provide for the most important attributes going for Alex in this fight.

With that being said, let's get down to business:

Strength:

To start off with Alex's low-tier levels of strength, regular-sized humans literally require no effort for him to pick up and throw:

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Alex can lift, and throw cars with little to no effort. Even while running on the ground, and even when running up buildings for that matter:

(Apologies for the quality, but it's the only video I could find when Alex specifically throws a car)

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Taking it up a notch, Alex can also run up entire skyscrapers along whilst carrying military cargo trucks on his shoulders with only a moderate amount of effort. They roughly weigh in at 7.5 Tons, so it's pretty damn impressive:

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To finalize Alex's Strength, i'll introduce his most impressive feat in Prototype 2 when he became a lot stronger. That of which is him picking up and tossing a tank, with one hand:

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For the record I don't know what kind of idiot Heller would have to be to full on attempt to slice Alex Mercer's throat, when he literally saw the dude fling a tank with one hand. Fortunately, Alex didn't want to kill him for you know, plot reasons (sigh).

Now, the tank in that clip looked no smaller than an M4 Sherman. The exact weight of one of those, is 30.3 Tonnes(M4 Sherman). If Alex could throw something of that weigh so effortlessly, it's obvious that he could lift and throw an object double of that weight, which would add up to 60.6 Tonnes.

That's an incredible level of strength, and what makes it even more notable is that this is only Alex's Base Strength which is not including the ability which doubles his strengthagain.

Therefore, Alex's top strength should be 121.2 Tonnes(labeling him as Class K+). Not bad Alex, not bad at all.

Speed & Air-Mobility:

Alex's speed is not to be trifled with. The dude is super-fast along with the instant-parkour ability where he automatically leaps over obstacles in his way.

Here's an example of his running speed, he ran a one-way path across the entirety of Manhattan:

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Now, Alex's running speed may have not looked too impressive to you. I'll refer to a quote made by a user who wanted to, test Alex's running speed:

Actually, do you have any idea what the dimensions of the map are? I actually timed how long it takes Mercer to run the entire length of the single longest piece of road in the game, which is basically the entire length of the map.

Even getting bodychecked by a Hunter, and the streets littered with traffic and car wrecks and endless crowds of screaming civillians, I still made the run in three minutes, and ten seconds.

According to the OBD, that speed classifies as faster than the eye would track, which is a crazy amount of speed. However considering it had never actually shown Mercer running that speed, we will assume he is at least half of that speed, which is still pretty damn speedy.

Not to mention, only a five-second acceleration build-up is all that is required to reach it.

Before you mention it, I am fully aware that this could be named as a Travel-Speed instance which is irrelevant to Combat Speed. However, Mercer actually utilizes his running-speed in combat instances so therefore I can use this as a feat.

In terms of reaction speed, Alex has his fair share of bullet-timing feats along with tank-shell dodging too.

Finally, take a look at Mercer's parkour. He can wall-run, leap at insane heights, glide, and he can dash while mid-air to gain a couple of boosts of height, and can perform tricks such as back flips.

Combined with his incredible running speed and the fact that he cannot tire out, Mercer would be on-par with Spider-Man to say the least:

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Striking Power:

Alex does pack quite a punch, enough to one-shot humans or human-sized enemies:

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As for Alex's proper full-force blows though, they're sufficient to damage tough military armor. In the following video, Alex was also severely weakened and still managed to destroy a chopper due to brute force alone:

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Alex can perform Bullet-Dive drops where he lunges himself into the ground which releases a massive shockwave which causes vehicles to explode and fly into the air due to the impact.

Alex also creates a powerful wind due to the power of his fists which sends opponents flying at considerable distances/heights, along knocking vehicles off of their balance:

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Finally, in Prototype 2 Alex can one-shot military choppers:

Durability & Regeneration:

Alex has infiltrated the toughest military bases, including the Blood-Tox Production Facility which would be one of the most highly protected. However, the only problems created for Alex here was the risk of exposure to the Blood-Tox itself, the military defending the base was only a moderate threat to him.

Alex was taking all of their fire-power ranging from turrets, missiles, tank/helicopter shells, and tanking blows from super-soldiers. Then of course, wiping the floor with all of them:

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Granted, Alex was far from invulnerable to their fire-power and did receive his fair share of damage. However for the most part, he was soaking it all and dishing out far worse to what an entire Black-Watch Base could do.

Mercer has gone toe-to-toe with strong opponents such as Supreme Hunters, who soak tank shells like they're nothing along with dishing out incredible amounts of brute-force such as destroying tanks with a couple of blows.

Alex had taken that damage moderately and eventually bested the Supreme Hunter itself:

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Alex has withstood blows from highly powerful opponents, such as Elizabeth Greene's monstrous Behometh form. Her "energy-like" attack as shown in the start of the clip has a block-wide radius and has easily blown up tanks (along with everything else in it's vicinity).

Alex on the other hand, got straight back up after each blow:

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Finally, i'll conclude Mercer's side of this post with his most used and likely his most impressive feat of all. That of which, is him regenerating after taking a hit from anuclear bomb:

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Granted, Mercer was in no shape to continue a fight and he consumed a crow to reform himself. However, he did not need to consume the crow, because as long as there is even a fraction of Biomass left, Mercer's body can automatically regenerate itself:

Biomassis an energy source, consisting of the biological material from a living organism. The biological material is used by thePrototypesto cure and regenerate themselves.

Mercer consumed the crow because by consuming it reforms much quicker than automatic regeneration, which would make a lot of sense. For Jackie to completely destroy Mercer he would have to wipe out every last cell of Mercer's Biomass, which I deem highly improbable (for now, at least).

Now that Mercer is out of the way i'll now focus on the newer and virtually superior Prototype, James Heller:

The Test Subject:

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Pre Second Viral Outbreak:

James Heller was a sergeant involved in the Marines Corps. After the end of his military tour, Heller wanted to return to Manhattan to be with his family. However, there was a devastating viral outbreak in the city while he was serving abroad.

Shortly before his return, Heller received a call from his wife who informed him of the outbreak. Heller assured her that he would return as soon as possible, but when he arrived in the city he discovered that the Blacklight infection had covered all of Manhattan and Colette had been killed.

Heller heard knews from Blackwatch that Alex Mercer was the cause of the outbreak. As a result, Heller along with his team dispatched to the NYZ Red Zone in search for Mercer to tryto avenge his family.

Post-Second Viral Outbreak:

Reluctantly, while hunting the Red Zone Heller encountered Mercer strolling about (shown in the video where Alex throws the tank). Mercer took notice of Heller's attempts to kill him and instead of taking action against Heller, Mercer toyed with him.

He allowed Heller to dangerously follow him (having encountered a Brawler, and even a Goliath) into a dark alleyway. Mercer then infected Heller with a portion of the Black-Light and as a result the virus hosted to Heller's body. James then became yet another Evolved to the Black-Light similar to Mercer, but not to the same extent (Heller is a host, Mercer is the host).

Just like Mercer, Heller was also granted with a variety of abilities. All of which are virtually the same as the ones that I had listed for Alex.

However, Heller does possess one different ability as follows:

  • Sonar Vision(Allows Heller to pinpoint any target. Whether he/she be out in the open, inside buildings, or even whilst airborne. It also has at least a city-wide range).

Also in terms of weaknesses, there is no Blood-Tox Gas in Prototype 2 (possibly because since Alex became a lot stronger, he evolved and overcame his weakness to the gas along with every other Evolved) so there is a strong unlikeliness that it would affect Heller.

It had been replaced with a much more volatile "cure", named the White-Light. As the name suggests, it is an Anti-Black Light virus cure:

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Now, let's get into detail with Heller's attributes. Most of it will seem very similar to Mercer, but that's because the two are highly compatible.

However, Heller is Mercer's superior in almost every aspect by both feats and the fact that he is meant to be stronger.

Strength:

Identical to Mercer, Heller requires absolutely no effort to pick up and throw humans.

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Heller can also easily pick up, and throw cars. Although it doesn't showcase him actually throwing a car (I had difficulty finding a specific clip), he most certainly can so trust me on that:

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Finally, Heller can rip off tank-turrets with a small amount of difficulty using only his bare hands. Tank-Turrets weigh in at roughly around 20 Tons, so it's a considerable feat especially since Heller is clearly not exerting himself:

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Seeming how Heller only put in a small amount of effort into ripping off a 20 Ton turret (which is one third of the whole tank) it's more than fair to assume that he could lift the entire tank if it came to that and also considering the fact that Heller is considered stronger than Mercer.

The total weight of an M1 Abrams tank (which is the exact type that Heller ripped the turret off) is 67.6 Tons. Like Mercer, Heller also possesses an ability that of which doubles his strength again which i'll showcase later.

Topping it all of, Heller's top strength should be 135.2 Tons. Which also labels Heller as Class K.

Speed & Air-Mobility:

Heller is significantly faster than Mercer, and the following video proves just that:

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That would make Heller an incredibly fast runner considering Alex's feat of scaling Manhattan within the span of three minutes.

Also I never mentioned this before, but notice how when Alex takes off he creates a small wind behind him from the impact. When Heller takes off, there's a small shock-wave that you really need to look at to notice:

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Heller is also no stranger to parkour, replicating what Mercer can do to a much higher extent. He runs faster, jumps higher, and is generally a lot more mobile:

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Striking Power:

Like Mercer, Heller's weak punches are sufficient to one-shot a civilian whilst spewing a lot of blood. As the following, rather short video will showcase:

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Heller's full-force blows have dented tank metal, severely damaged choppers, knocked back highly durable opponents. They have also sent humans flying at a great distance:

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Heller can also one-shot military choppers:

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Durability & Regeneration:

While this may or may not be relevant in this battle, Heller is completely bullet-proof:

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Heller can also handily clear out a large portion of Black-Watch, taking all their kinds of fire-power while dishing out much more damage to them than they are doing to Heller:

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James has battled, and took the best attacks from powerful opponents such as Brawlers, Evolved, Juggernauts, and Hydras:

Brawlers:

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Evolved:

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Juggernauts:

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Hydras:

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Goliaths:

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Heller has even took blows from scarily strong opponents such as these Goliaths as well as handing a couple of hits from thermobaric firepower (designed to level city-blocks).

Lastly, Heller took on and bested Alex Mercer himself:

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Ah, finally it's done. Alright, it's your move dude.

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#20 Posted by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: The videos for Heller didn't show up brother man. Also be sure to add the consumption thing back in to the OP, I am definitely curious to see/learn more about that aspect as well and see if it can be debated against, though no rush on introducing it in your posts=)

Great opener though, and I'll be back to respond in a bit, but I have to head out for a few hours. So I'll try to throw out my response sometime this evening or tomorrow.

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#21 Edited by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong:

Ugh damn, never mind i'll edit and repost the videos later on. You can take as much time as you need with your post mate, don't worry.

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#22 Edited by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry to take so long, but life has a habit of getting in the way.

Great opener @pope052, now let's see how good my little riposte is=)

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Baseline Jackie sans the Darkness

Jackie is good at killing. No wait, scratch that. What I meant to say is that Jackie is really good at killing. He started his career as a mafia hitman at the age of 16, and has had plenty of combat experience prior to gaining the Darkness on his 21st birthday:

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These feats should give you a pretty good idea of what Jackie himself is capable of. His moral compass is somewhat defective, so getting down dirty and killing a foe is not out of the question. As well, we can see that he is a crack shot and is experienced in hand to hand, not to mention he definitely has top tier speed, agility, and bullet timing, all without the Darkness enhancements. But hey, we aren't here to see the baseline Jackie, so let us take a look at what the Darkness is and the empowered Jackie.

The Origin

First, let's talk about just what the Darkness is:

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As you can see, we are talking about an abstract force that has empowered a human to wield it's power in the mortal realms.

Strength

When I mention “darkness empowered”, I am meaning the darkness armored version of Jackie you will see in the following scans. Needless to say, when darkness empowered, Jackie’s stats benefit from a bit of a boost. As you’ll see, his strength is sufficient enough to tear through baseline humans with ease, and punch through another Darkness armored individual:

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Demolish cars:

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And rip up a road and hold it up for a car to play some Dukes of Hazard and get some air time:

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His strength is also more than enough to tear apart military helicopters:

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And of course tanks:

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He can knock around giant beasties:

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Not to mention he tangles pretty evenly with Sara with the Witchblade:

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Who is no weakling herself:

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Now while there are a lot of theoretical points to be made on Jackie's full strength with Darkness, just sticking with the feats he has and the people he has tangled with, I'd say that both sides of this debate are playing in roughly the same strength range.

Durability

What is a little strength without some durability? Jackie is darn near impossible to damage while darkness empowered. Bullets bounce off of him:

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Even phosphorous rounds fired from a tank don’t pierce his armor (though it should be noted that a few rounds did finally KO him playing on that light weakness, but he does eventually become somewhat light resistant, which you will see in a bit):

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He also tanks explosions like a champ:

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And, if you are squeamish, don’t open the following. Needless to say, Jackie and the Darkness weren't seeing eye to eye, so it let him get blown in half, and kept him going, crawling around as a torso until he agreed with it (he gets healed up pretty quickly once he agrees with it):

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Also, because it was brought up earlier, Jackie's growing light resistance. Now, you throw him in full, broad daylight, he won't be able to armor up and summon his minions under the full sunlight, but the shadowy, dark places whether it is daytime or not, he can still affect with the power (so the lights at the location they are fighting at should be no issue). As for this growing resistance I was talking about, he was able to store the sun dagger, a blade made from dying stars, inside his body:

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Finally, we’ll close the durability section out with him surviving re-entry as the sun is coming up and his Darkness armor is fading:

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But, just to point out to be fair, sufficient strength and supernatural power has pierced his armor (he isn't fully invulnerable, just really, really hard to damage). Here, Jackie's Darkness born son illustrates my point:

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Now to clarify, Jackie did heal from that exceedingly quickly.

He can take some hits as you can see, and in the durability department, I would say that Jackie may be slightly ahead of the Prototype boys, since the worst damage we really ever see Jackie take is when he is without the Darkness armor.

Regen/Healing

So just what happens when he does get damaged? Well he doesn't run home and cry for mommy or even bother looking for a band aid. The Darkness allows him the ability to regenerate and heal. Even in extreme cases, such as when he purposefully tried to kill himself while taking out his Uncle Frankie at the same time (and there was nothing left but his jawbone), the Darkness brought him back. As long as there is something left of Jackie with the Darkness in it, it can bring him back:

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Most minor damage tends to heal instantly when he armors up:

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Even when the attack involves a combination of light and face melting radiation, he bounces back rather quickly:

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He has also grown himself a new heart in preparation for stabbing himself in the chest with the sun dagger, so he could technically die for a second or two before the new heart started pumping, bringing him back:

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It should also be noted that in the discussion, his ability to constantly regenerate his flesh as the sun dagger destroys it is mentioned. So while the prototype boys have some pretty good regeneration, it looks like massive damage would still be good for an incap, as from what I can tell, they need to consume a foe for a quick pick me up, which Jackie doesn't need.

So yes, INSANE healing. Wolvie, eat your heart out (are you reading this @wolverine08?).

Morphological Ability

Since we are discussing the physical side here, it should be brought up that Jackie’s form is malleable while darkness empowered. He can morph his whole body, like for instance disguising himself as an old woman, turning into a huge dragon-like shape, or growing some wings for full blown flight (good for dealing with the parkour type stuff and gaining some altitude):

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There is also his ability to project tentacle like extensions from his body to slice, dice, pierce and attack his foes. It allows for multi-directional attacks, and they can attack foes Jackie isn't even focused on, or even looking at:

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And he can even play a little Mr Fantastic (but with the strength levels to one shot military helicopters):

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Speed/Reflexes

On the pure physical side of things for a darkness empowered Jackie, this is the last bit, and well…as you can see in the durability and regen sections, he has very little reason to actually dodge while empowered. Jackie is a bonafide bullet timer/dodger, with and without the Darkness, and can do some ceiling and wall running type stuff himself as well:

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Weapons

I guess sometimes ripping people to shreds, or beating them down with high tonnage strength can grow to be a bit cliche, so from time to time, Jackie has been known to create various weapons from the Darkness. We've got guns:

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He can also make grenades when needed:

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And of course, the old standby, blades:

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Now let's also bear in mind, these aren't real weapons. These are all extensions of the Darkness, and as such, are basically supernatural attacks capable of causing some real damage.

Darklings

So, two versus one huh? Seem a bit unfair? Well, lets throw out another wrinkle for my opponent here, Darklings. Jackie can create these creatures from the darkness, and it takes no time at all to form an army:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

With these little (sometimes big) guys, Jackie is never alone. He can summon up an army of these mouthy freaks of various shapes and sizes:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Not to mention, that while not as durable as Jackie, they can handle giant monsters and tonners:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And sometimes come with Darkness made weapons:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

They'll eat just about anything (including steel and concrete), and will follow Jackie's commands even if it means their “death” (like jumping into the mouth of some monster until it pops):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

In Summary

Jackie is a tough opponent to face. He is exceedingly hard to damage with his durability and regeneration. He has plenty of options in combat from distance battles to the up close and personal fights. With his tonnage strength, he can bring the pain, and has options for handling multiple opponents. This is one exceedingly versatile guy that comes with his own summonable army.

While the prototype guys may regenerate, it seems that enough damage could be done to incapacitate them, which I think Jackie could possibly do with pure physical abilities alone.

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#23 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: Haha, nice opener. Jackie's still doesn't have anything on Wolverine's badass healing factor though :D

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#24 Edited by NeonGameWave (19333 posts) - - Show Bio

I`m calling it right now, this will be one of the best Challenge a Viners ever!!! :) Both opening arguments are tremendous as they are compelling, this is going to be something awesome especially being a fan of both The Darkness and Prototypes which are being debated by A-list debaters!

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#25 Posted by OfficialRikudouSennin (693 posts) - - Show Bio

only Alex has the upper hand here

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#26 Posted by UndinehunterTitan (296 posts) - - Show Bio

With these opening arguments, its hard to pick between these killers. I'm slightly leaning on Jackie in terms of manueverability but Alex and James' consuming are a key factor here

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#27 Edited by Jmarshmallow (13840 posts) - - Show Bio

What an epic CaV. Love all of these characters to death. Tag me when you're done so I can read it all! I'm really looking forward to this one.

Jmarshmallow

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#28 Posted by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Edited by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong:

There’s been a reluctant change of plans, I have had more free time today than expected so I was able to concentrate on this and rack up a post. That was a highly detailed and interesting opener from you my friend, and well done on that I must say. Now then with all sugar-coating aside, let's get straight down to business.

Your section on Baseline Jackie was definitely intriguing i'll give you that. The scans provided clearly back up your claims that Jackie has top tier speed, agility, and is certainly skilled in hand-to-hand combat.

Fortunately for me, everything that was shown for Baseline Jackie is nothing for either Prototype to worry about. Finally, that was a good introduction to what exactly the Darkness is. Evident by your following arguments, the Darkness is certainly a real threat to the Prototypes.

Let's begin this bloody and downright brutal matchup here:

Now while there are a lot of theoretical points to be made on Jackie's full strength with Darkness, just sticking with the feats he has and the people he has tangled with, I'd say that both sides of this debate are playing in roughly the same strength range.

I do agree there. Judging from both your feats and mine, there are clear similarities on both sides. Although i'd say that the Prototypes should take at least the slight advantage as Alex himself excels with his effortless tank-throwing feat, and James is considered stronger than Alex.

He can take some hits as you can see, and in the durability department, I would say that Jackie may be slightly ahead of the Prototype boys, since the worst damage we really ever see Jackie take is when he is without the Darkness armor.

I disagree there as I would argue that durability should really belong to the Prototypes in all honesty. From the durability feats you've provided, a few are easily comparable to Alex/James and the rest wouldn't apply to the type of damage that the Prototypes would output.

While you definitely have proven that Jackie has very considerable showings of durability, I haven’t seen too much from him (at least, not yet) that suggests he would be able to take too much from the type of damage that the Prototypes bring to the table (such as Sun-Damage durability and atmosphere reentry. While albeit impressive, those type of durability feats hold no relevance against Mercer or Heller).

On the other hand, Alex & Heller have both shown to soak the kind of damage that Jackie omits. That of which includes blunt force, explosive, and piercing damage (Bullets, Blades, Etc), which is seemingly really all that is needed to be able to tank Jackie’s type of attacks.

Even if Jackie's attacks show the potential to do severe damage to the Prototypes, Alex himself possesses a suit of armor that he can activate at will which negates the majority of damage that Alex's body would regularly receive, along with a shield too:

Alex's Armor:

The Armor is the second defensive power of Alex Mercer. While in this form, he takes less damage, but the added density results in loss of movement speed and overall agility.

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Alex's Shield:

The Shield will absorb damage on impact, preserving your Health completely until it breaks. Once broken, the Shield must regenerate before it will once again repel damage.

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Lastly, considering that you posted a scan of Jackie getting pierced by an attack from his son, if Jackie is weak against bladed weapons then that’s a harmful factor going against him in terms of dealing with Alex & Heller’s attacks like the following two abilities:

Claws:

Transform your hands into deadly edged weapons; slice and dice for up-close crowd control.

I think the name is pretty self-explanatory. Both Alex & Heller can shape-shift their hands into large, and dangerously sharp claws. Allowing to cut through regular enemies like paper, sever ligaments off of stronger enemies, and highly damage military personal:

Loading Video...

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Blade:

A powerful and deadly cutting and thrusting weapon, perfect for slicing and swiping through even the toughest armored vehicles or infected hides.

A much bigger, and a lot more volatile ability. The Prototypes can both shape-shift their entire arm into a five-foot long,blade:

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So if Jackie is vulnerable to piercing attacks such as these two, that will create a lot of trouble for him in battle, especially considering it is both Heller and Mercer. He'd want to be avoiding these, but then again I doubt he'd have the speed to do so considering that both Prototypes have shown to possess speed exceeding Jackie's speed themselves.

It should also be noted that in the discussion, his ability to constantly regenerate his flesh as the sun dagger destroys it is mentioned. So while the prototype boys have some pretty good regeneration, it looks like massive damage would still be good for an incap, as from what I can tell, they need to consume a foe for a quick pick me up, which Jackie doesn't need.

There is still a lot of comparable feats we both have that can be argued on which side has the superior regenerative abilities.

  • Jackie regenerated from a Jaw-Bone - Alex did so as well from a mere strip of Bio-Mass.
  • Minor Damage to Jackie heals Instantly - Minor damage to Heller can be recovered at a rate of 1% Per Second and Mercer isn't exactly too far behind Heller in that aspect either.

Alex & Heller only ever need to consume when they're completely reduced to a fraction of their health, which I see Jackie putting a lot of effort into if he wishes to accomplish that. Then again, Mercer and Heller have the durability feats to suggest they could soak most of Jackie's attacks.

I've already showcased Mercer's means of extra defense (his armor), but now it's Heller's turn. Like Alex, James also possesses a Shield ability. However, he has one in each arm and the durability of the shields is absolutely superb:

Heller's Shields:

Heller uses both arms for his Shields. Unlike Mercer's, they are almost impossible to break through. The requirement for bypassing them would be at the absolute miminum, Large-Building Busting+ Destructive Output.

Mainly due to the fact that it has took all forms of military fire-power without fail, along with effortlessly deflecting attacks from opponents who have busted tanks in a couple of hits. The only opponents who can actually break it are labeled as Large-Building Busters, so that's the explanation:

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Morphological Ability

Since we are discussing the physical side here, it should be brought up that Jackie’s form is malleable while darkness empowered. He can morph his whole body, like for instance disguising himself as an old woman, turning into a huge dragon-like shape, or growing some wings for full blown flight (good for dealing with the parkour type stuff and gaining some altitude):

There is also his ability to project tentacle like extensions from his body to slice, dice, pierce and attack his foes. It allows for multi-directional attacks, and they can attack foes Jackie isn't even focused on, or even looking at:

And he can even play a little Mr Fantastic (but with the strength levels to one shot military helicopters):

All of this sounds similar to the Prototype(s)' shape-shifting abilities. Both can disguise themselves as anybody they consume and/or have consumed. They can shape-shift their bodies into deadly weapons (Claws, Blade) or for defensive proportions (Armor, Shield) as seen in some examples above, and so on.

Both Alex and Heller possess an ability similar to Jackie's Tentacle Projection Ability, named the Tendril Barrage Devastator:

Tendril Barrage Devastator:

The Tendril Barrage causes spikes made of hard, fibrous tissue shaped like tendrils to erupt from Alex's and Heller's body in every direction, impaling everything around them for a fair distance. It will wipe out entire crowds of civilians and can kill powerful enemies in an instant.

It has been used by Heller to bust entire underground lairs, and by Alex to destroy Military Bases/Infected Hives for that matter. Therefore, it is classified as an on panel Building Buster:

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Speed/Reflexes

On the pure physical side of things for a darkness empowered Jackie, this is the last bit, and well…as you can see in the durability and regen sections, he has very little reason to actually dodge while empowered. Jackie is a bonafide bullet timer/dodger, with and without the Darkness, and can do some ceiling and wall running type stuff himself as well:

Both Alex & Heller have displayed the reaction speed which is fast enough to dodge bullets, tank shells, and virtually any projectile they have dodged at least once.

Each Prototype definitely has the reactions to spar with Jackie, and certainly exceeding him in the raw combat speed aspect too at least thus far.

Weapons

I guess sometimes ripping people to shreds, or beating them down with high tonnage strength can grow to be a bit cliche, so from time to time, Jackie has been known to create various weapons from the Darkness. We've got guns:

He can also make grenades when needed:

And of course, the old standby, blades:

Now let's also bear in mind, these aren't real weapons. These are all extensions of the Darkness, and as such, are basically supernatural attacks capable of causing some real damage.

Virtually all of the weapons listed here have been casually dealt with in numerous instances by both Prototypes. I'm not saying Jackie's Darkness Weapons are useless, but they certainly wouldn't be any trouble to Alex/Heller as their own shape-shifting abilities have displayed to be more efficient in combat as opposed to Jackie's weaponry.

Darklings

So, two versus one huh? Seem a bit unfair? Well, lets throw out another wrinkle for my opponent here, Darklings. Jackie can create these creatures from the darkness, and it takes no time at all to form an army:

With these little (sometimes big) guys, Jackie is never alone. He can summon up an army of these mouthy freaks of various shapes and sizes:

Not to mention, that while not as durable as Jackie, they can handle giant monsters and tonners:

And sometimes come with Darkness made weapons:

They'll eat just about anything (including steel and concrete), and will follow Jackie's commands even if it means their “death” (like jumping into the mouth of some monster until it pops):

Ah, this is interesting. Although the Darklings shouldn't cause Alex and/or Heller too much trouble at least, but they'll certainly get in the way of the fight with Jackie and become an utter nuisance. Therefore, Heller gets sick of it and releases his own little buddies which is an ability known as Pack Leader.

Pack Leader:

Pack leader is an ability developed by James Heller after his consumption of the Evolved, Karen Archer. This ability allowed Heller to summon a pack of Brawlers to fight by his side.

Now, these little creatures are far from canon fodder too. They have one-shotted cars, blown up tanks with a few hits, move at a speed fast enough to keep up with Heller, and much more. They are highly durable too as they casually soak tank shells, and can handle virtually all of the fire-power the military have to offer:

Loading Video...

There's a total of four Brawlers, and they'll clear the way of Darklings which will allow Mercer & Heller to deal with Jackie.

Conclusion:

Thus far, Jackie has not shown much feats from the type of durability (Blunt Force, Piercing) that of which is needed to handle taking a considerable amount of attacks from the Prototypes, and they have shown the durability to take most of what Jackie can dish out along with Armor & Shields to widen the gap.

The Prototypes have shown the speed to keep up with Jackie's reaction speed and the raw combat speed itself to exceed Jackie's.

Alex & Heller's shape-shifting abilities overall exceed Jackie's Morphing, and Weapon-Summoning abilities. Heller's Brawler Pack should handle the Darklings allowing for Mercer and Heller to take Jackie without any outside trouble.

Apologies if this post seems short or of little detail. As I would like to save most of my best cards for the later posts. Anyway, it's your move mate.

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#30 Edited by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Good post my friend=)

I'll get to this tomorrow, and no apologies needed. You have given me plenty to work with and reply to!

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#31 Edited by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, this is getting nice and interesting! Let's turn up the heat up a bit, and see if we can push some limits on your team. I am curious to see just what they are made of. Your team is tough, and is definitely legit. So let's see how far we can take this bad boy.

For starters...

"Fortunately for me, everything that was shown for Baseline Jackie is nothing for either Prototype to worry about."

Baseline Jackie, that is true. It does show though that Jackie has some skills to bring to the table, and when you couple that with his Darkness enhancements, it should paint a nice, pretty picture of just what he can accomplish=)

"I do agree there. Judging from both your feats and mine, there are clear similarities on both sides. Although I’d say that the Prototypes should take at least the slight advantage as Alex himself excels with his effortless tank-throwing feat, and James is considered stronger than Alex."

While I don't entirely agree here, I will admit that they are all at least within the same range that I can feasibly prove=)

Durability and Healing Stuff:

“I disagree there as I would argue that durability should really belong to the Prototypes in all honesty. From the durability feats you've provided, a few are easily comparable to Alex/James and the rest wouldn't apply to the type of damage that the Prototypes would output.”

I haven’t seen either of the Prototype boys stand up to tank shells, and not to mention that an explosion consists of just about every physical damage type there is, and just about every type of damage these two should be capable of putting out (blast injuries come in about 4 different stages which truly does incorporate just about everything that can physically happen to a body). I can show you Jackie tanking explosions of various strengths and sizes, and you will not see one scratch on him. Heck, even the fall from the outer atmosphere shows his ability to survive massive, I mean really massive blunt force trauma on a scale I am not sure your team can even hope to dish out.

As well, I keep seeing them both take damage from monsters and such in the video clips, and that leads me to believe that Jackie with the strength to one shot a military chopper should be more than capable of damaging them here. Sure, they can soak some, but they still take damage, and they heal slowly compared to Jackie unless they can consume biomass from everything I have seen.

“While you definitely have proven that Jackie has very considerable showings of durability, I haven’t seen too much from him (at least, not yet) that suggests he would be able to take too much from the type of damage that the Prototypes bring to the table (such as Sun-Damage durability and atmosphere reentry. While albeit impressive, those type of durability feats hold no relevance against Mercer or Heller).”

Unless they are putting out some kind of damage you have yet to show, then I have yet to see anything they can put out that Jackie couldn’t take. I have covered all of the physical damage types here, and I can even up it a bit more. Let’s take the Angelus for one. She fights evenly with Jackie, and is basically the light equivalent of Jackie (when God said “Let there be light”, the Angelus was born and empowers a human much like the Darkness). Some of her more well-known historical feats would be the destruction of the Tower of Babel, and of course destroying 2/3rds of the island of Krakatoa, and when I say destroyed, I mean 2/3rds of the land mass for the island no longer exists.

The Krakatoa explosion had the explosive force of 200 megatons of TNT. The bomb that destroyed Hiroshima had a force of 20 kilotons for reference here. So when I say that if the Angelus truly wants to kill someone, she has the power. Jackie has tanked blasts from an enraged Angelus that was actively trying to kill him:

No Caption Provided

As an FYI, more of that fight will be shown later, so for the moment, just take my word that Jackie tanked that (even though it hurt, I mean we have learned a bit of her power output and she was trying to kill him after all) and gets back up. If Mercer or Heller do the majority of the types of physical damage that are possible, then I have shown Jackie tanking it and more.

“On the other hand, Alex & Heller have both shown to soak the kind of damage that Jackie omits. That of which includes blunt force, explosive, and piercing damage (Bullets, Blades, Etc), which is seemingly really all that is needed to be able to tank Jackie’s type of attacks.”

From what I have seen, their soak is more of a regenerative rapid healing which even at times requires consuming biomass for a lot of their healing, and they can still take damage. I have yet to see them actually tank the level of damage Jackie has. And as stated above, I have still seen them take damage from monsters, guns and so on. Not to mention, I still haven’t shown you all of Jackie’s kind of attacks, but we will get there=)

From what I have seen, Jackie has the sufficient strength and ability to damage them.

“Even if Jackie's attacks show the potential to do severe damage to the Prototypes, Alex himself possesses a suit of armor that he can activate at will which negates the majority of damage that Alex's body would regularly receive, along with a shield too”

Now, let preface this with, that game really does look pretty cool=)

Anyhow, while the armor reduces damage…Alex is still taking damage from mundane guns and such, while Jackie shrugs attacks like that off in his armor, and that is all the time. Considering Jackie was able to punch through armor (see when he punched through a darkness empowered opponent in the scans in my previous post) capable of withstanding explosions, tank shells and so on, I think he stands a fair shot at hurting someone through armor that only reduces damage, not stops it altogether. And the shield, well, see what I have to say on Heller's shields a little below...

“Lastly, considering that you posted a scan of Jackie getting pierced by an attack from his son, if Jackie is weak against bladed weapons then that’s a harmful factor going against him in terms of dealing with Alex & Heller’s attacks like the following two abilities”

Weak to bladed, piercing type stuff? The guy who isn't even pierced by tank shells? Alright, let's clarify this. That creature, Jackie's “son”, was meant to take his place, and be a pure darkness born being on Earth to do the will of the Darkness, since Jackie was bucking the system. This creature was stronger than Jackie, and much like Jackie, can create the darkness born tendrils for attacks (it didn't have Jackie's creativity with the Darkness though). With the strength and power that thing was packing, it would pierce and take down the prototype boys as well.

But, let's show what happened after Jackie took that overpowered, supernaturally induced attack:

No Caption Provided

That's right, he gets back up, all healed. To even beat the thing, Jackie had to trick it up into orbit to face the full light of the sun (which of course leads us to the re-entry feat). And Jackie fully faced its attacks, and tanked the damage it dished throughout that whole fight. There is nothing the prototypes can do that I have seen, that this thing cound't do to Jackie. He took punches, piercing damage, and so on, and kept getting back up and fighting, then survived re-entry. Now, the whole fight will get shown eventually, but a few bits and pieces are being saved for some stuff in a bit=)

Now, I could fill the rest of this post up with the tonners Jackie has faced, other people the Darkness has empowered that Jackie has taken down that all have power levels comparable to Jackie, but I have other scans and points to bring to the table, so I will save those for another post.

So what do the Prototype boys really bring to the table that is unique here compared to what Jackie has faced?

“So if Jackie is vulnerable to piercing attacks such as these two, that will create a lot of trouble for him in battle, especially considering it is both Heller and Mercer. He'd want to be avoiding these, but then again I doubt he'd have the speed to do so considering that both Prototypes have shown to possess speed exceeding Jackie's speed themselves.”

So no, Jackie isn’t really vulnerable to piercing attacks. A piercing attack from a supernatural source with high tonnage strength may be another story here, and to even consider the idea, I’d have to see the claws and blades pierce something capable of withstanding tank shells.

“There is still a lot of comparable feats we both have that can be argued on which side has the superior regenerative abilities. Jackie regenerated from a Jaw-Bone - Alex did so as well from a mere strip of Bio-Mass. Minor Damage to Jackie heals Instantly - Minor damage to Heller can be recovered at a rate of 1% Per Second and Mercer isn't exactly too far behind Heller in that aspect either.”

I still maintain Jackie has superior regenerative abilities. Unless it is something that has played on a weakness, Jackie heals instantly from damage. You have seen him crawling around as a torso, and then him up and about just fine. He took mortal gunshot wounds to the torso, and healed instantly when he armored up. He was pierced by his sons attack and again heals instantly. The slowest he healed was from the jawbone and light/radiation combo attack, and both were faster than 1% per second.

From what I understand, the Prototype boys need biomass for their best and speediest healing. Jackie doesn’t need that.

“Alex & Heller only ever need to consume when they're completely reduced to a fraction of their health, which I see Jackie putting a lot of effort into if he wishes to accomplish that.”

And they heal exceedingly slowly if they don’t consume biomass, which Jackie doesn’t have that drawback. And from what I have seen so far, I believe he has the means to put the hurt on them.

“Then again, Mercer and Heller have the durability feats to suggest they could soak most of Jackie's attacks.”

I don’t agree from what I have seen and already brought up, but we will see what the verdict is once all of my cards are revealed=)

“Heller uses both arms for his Shields. Unlike Mercer's, they are almost impossible to break through. The requirement for bypassing them would be at the absolute miminum, Large-Building Busting+ Destructive Output. Mainly due to the fact that it has took all forms of military fire-power without fail, along with effortlessly deflecting attacks from opponents who have busted tanks in a couple of hits. The only opponents who can actually break it are labeled as Large-Building Busters, so that's the explanation”

The problem is, just like Mercer’s shields, those only protect and cover so much of his body. Jackie can create nearly innumerous tentacles to attack from more directions than either can possibly protect themselves from.

Though, I do have a little something special in mind to bring to the table in regards those shields, which you will see in a bit.

“The Tendril Barrage causes spikes made of hard, fibrous tissue shaped like tendrils to erupt from Alex's and Heller's body in every direction, impaling everything around them for a fair distance. It will wipe out entire crowds of civilians and can kill powerful enemies in an instant. It has been used by Heller to bust entire underground lairs, and by Alex to destroy Military Bases/Infected Hives for that matter. Therefore, it is classified as an on panel Building Buster”

And it is a good attack, but with Jackie’s regenerative abilities, it would only be a minor annoyance at best.

“Virtually all of the weapons listed here have been casually dealt with in numerous instances by both Prototypes. I'm not saying Jackie's Darkness Weapons are useless, but they certainly wouldn't be any trouble to Alex/Heller as their own shape-shifting abilities have displayed to be more efficient in combat as opposed to Jackie's weaponry.”

I have seen them lose life to bullets, explosions, and similar type attacks. And considering Jackie's little friends can be armed with such items to do those kinds of damage, and the fact that Jackie can match their shape-shifting abilities, makes me think that what he can do may be a bit more efficient than their attacks.

Speed, Movement, and Battlefield Mobility Stuff:

“Both Alex & Heller have displayed the reaction speed which is fast enough to dodge bullets, tank shells, and virtually any projectile they have dodged at least once. Each Prototype definitely has the reactions to spar with Jackie, and certainly exceeding him in the raw combat speed aspect too at least thus far.”

The thing is, while they have good speed, they aren’t too fast for the eye to follow. Sure they can cover some ground and attack some foes fairly fast, but I haven’t seen anything to lead me to believe that they are out of the league of a bullet timer.

I guess now is as good a time as any to bring up the fact that besides flight, Jackie can also teleport:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

He can open up portals:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Which of course runs through an actual extra-dimensional type place:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

And he can travel cross country distances:

No Caption Provided

Couple that with flight, bullet timing ability, the ability to attack from range and summon darklings that can move, think and attack on their own…and a bit more as you will soon see…things get a bit tougher for your crew.

More Darkling Stuff:

“Ah, this is interesting. Although the Darklings shouldn't cause Alex and/or Heller too much trouble at least, but they'll certainly get in the way of the fight with Jackie and become an utter nuisance. Therefore, Heller gets sick of it and releases his own little buddies which is an ability known as Pack Leader. Now, these little creatures are far from canon fodder too. They have one-shotted cars, blown up tanks with a few hits, move at a speed fast enough to keep up with Heller, and much more. They are highly durable too as they casually soak tank shells, and can handle virtually all of the fire-power the military have to offer. There's a total of four Brawlers, and they'll clear the way of Darklings which will allow Mercer & Heller to deal with Jackie.”

And now, we up the ante just a tad bit more. Let’s start with this: simply clearing the way of darklings is far easier said than done. While your average little darkling may not be much, I did mention (and have shown) that these things come in various sizes and with different levels of durability. Take for instance the scan I already showed of one manhandling Tom Judge (the Rapture), who is a tonner himself with enough strength levels to give Jackie a good fight.

Let’s also take into account, the Angelus. She has always been shown to be on equal footing with Jackie strength wise with the ability to manhandle him from time to time:

No Caption Provided

But enough darklings can even impede and take down someone of her strength levels (which is about equal to Jackie’s):

No Caption Provided

And the prototype boys aren't packing a supercharged light based attack to free themselves that I have seen. But let’s up the ante a bit more. These guys can also teleport:

No Caption Provided

They can move objects through solid matter:

No Caption Provided

And can drag people away through the shadows:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The best part is, if they get destroyed, just like Jackie told Tom Judge, he can always make more, and he can make a lot of them (earlier days he was a bit more limited, but in more modern times, he has gone beyond such restrictions). He can even make them in a multitude of nightmarishly impossible shapes and sizes, and this can make fighting them difficult. Honestly, how does anyone just clear the way of an ever changing amorphous tentacled blob of a creature with no discernible center mass to even attack? It'll be tough:

No Caption Provided

And he can turn every shadowed spot and dark place into a virtual warzone:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

When they make those shields…won’t there be a nice shadowed spot on the underside of that shield? And Jackie doesn’t even have to be there or touch that spot to do his thing:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

The Conclusion Stuff:

Alright, I think for the moment that will be enough ante upping=)

The way I see it, Jackie has a multitude of options here. From what I have seen of the Prototype guys thus far, he can take what they can dish out, and heal up quite nicely from it. While the brawlers are a nice touch, they are easily dealt with via BFR by the darkling express. Not to mention, Jackie also has options for BFRing Mercer and/or Heller, and has superior battlefield mobility with teleportation and flight. Even some of their best defensive features can be turned against them.

Don't get me wrong, you have proven that they are two exceedingly tough hombres, and won't go down easily or quietly...but I am not sure they can take Jackie here.

Your move my friend!

(There will be typos, I'll come back and edit them in the morning, but feel free to respond when you get a chance, even with my typos!)

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#32 Posted by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong:

Apologies I didn't see your post mate, I didn't get the notification and I came onto the thread just now. I'll need to finish a post for another CAV which i'm almost done so i'll start working on my reply today when I get the time and hopefully have it all finished up by tomorrow.

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#33 Posted by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: No worries brother man. I was tagged as a spectator in one of yours. You are representing Goku, so I expect good things in that thread!

As a side note, this thread must just be too full of awesome, as every time I try to check it from a work computer, the page locks up=)

If you want, we can keep running this at a nice easy pace, or we can limit the posts and close it out soon (like 2 or 3 or however many more). I am game for whatever=)

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#34 Edited by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong:

Firstly concerning your last statement, I think two more posts each should do it just fine. The last one being in a conclusive style, but it's up to you.

Okay, let's do this:

I haven’t seen either of the Prototype boys stand up to tank shells, and not to mention that an explosion consists of just about every physical damage type there is, and just about every type of damage these two should be capable of putting out (blast injuries come in about 4 different stages which truly does incorporate just about everything that can physically happen to a body). I can show you Jackie tanking explosions of various strengths and sizes, and you will not see one scratch on him. Heck, even the fall from the outer atmosphere shows his ability to survive massive, I mean really massive blunt force trauma on a scale I am not sure your team can even hope to dish out.

As well, I keep seeing them both take damage from monsters and such in the video clips, and that leads me to believe that Jackie with the strength to one shot a military chopper should be more than capable of damaging them here. Sure, they can soak some, but they still take damage, and they heal slowly compared to Jackie unless they can consume biomass from everything I have seen.

Oh they can soak tank-shells, trust me on that. It's just difficult for me to find a specific video where they do as it happens on such a regular basis.

I fail to see the logic in how you'd back up the claim of "explosive damage consists of every damage-type there is", especially in regards to how Jackie would withstand the types of attacks the Prototypes dish out being not solely Blunt-Force but primarily Piercing Damage.

You cannot necessarily use Jackie's feats of surviving reentry or explosions to compare his durability to how he'd handle getting pierced clean through by Heller's Blade, or Mercer's Claws. I'm just saying, it doesn't make any sense how you'd compare a stab wound from a sword to explosive damage from a grenade.

They won't be taking anything they can't handle from Jackie, blunt-force is the weakest form of output you could throw at the Prototypes. I have showcased both of them one-shotting helicopters just like Jackie can.

I once attempted to take Mercer using just my fists (the very fists that have one shotted the helicopters) yet you should haven seen how futile that was. Mercer also never tried to attack Heller using blunt-force, because he would have known how useless it would prove.

While indeed Jackie does hit hard, he hasn't shown anything in the Striking Power department that the Prototypes couldn't easily tank. It would be a mistake for Jackie to step in a boxing ring with either Prototype, let alone simultaneously.

Unless they are putting out some kind of damage you have yet to show, then I have yet to see anything they can put out that Jackie couldn’t take. I have covered all of the physical damage types here, and I can even up it a bit more. Let’s take the Angelus for one. She fights evenly with Jackie, and is basically the light equivalent of Jackie (when God said “Let there be light”, the Angelus was born and empowers a human much like the Darkness). Some of her more well-known historical feats would be the destruction of the Tower of Babel, and of course destroying 2/3rds of the island of Krakatoa, and when I say destroyed, I mean 2/3rds of the land mass for the island no longer exists.

The Krakatoa explosion had the explosive force of 200 megatons of TNT. The bomb that destroyed Hiroshima had a force of 20 kilotons for reference here. So when I say that if the Angelus truly wants to kill someone, she has the power. Jackie has tanked blasts from an enraged Angelus that was actively trying to kill him:

As an FYI, more of that fight will be shown later, so for the moment, just take my word that Jackie tanked that (even though it hurt, I mean we have learned a bit of her power output and she was trying to kill him after all) and gets back up. If Mercer or Heller do the majority of the types of physical damage that are possible, then I have shown Jackie tanking it and more.

From what I have seen, their soak is more of a regenerative rapid healing which even at times requires consuming biomass for a lot of their healing, and they can still take damage. I have yet to see them actually tank the level of damage Jackie has. And as stated above, I have still seen them take damage from monsters, guns and so on. Not to mention, I still haven’t shown you all of Jackie’s kind of attacks, but we will get there=)

From what I have seen, Jackie has the sufficient strength and ability to damage them.

Again, Blunt-Force/Piercing-Damage =/= (does not equal) Explosive-Damage. You cannot accurately compare the two. From what you've shown me, Jackie's durability is ripe in terms of Explosive Damage but has not shown a lot or exceeding in terms of the type of damage the Prototypes both dish out and tank same-fold.

I'm not saying that Jackie is vehemently outmatched in the aspect(s), but I wouldn't rely on the thought of him matching or exceeding the Prototypes in the Blunt-Force/Piercing-Damage aspects and he certainly is not damaging them to the point where he gains the edge over the Prototypes in those two fields either.

Like I said, Mercer has shown to treat helicopter-busting punches like they're nothing and Heller shares almost identically comparable durability (evident by the fact that Mercer didn't even attempt to face Heller using solely blunt-force, he is far too smart to do so as he would know that Blunt-Force is useless against an Evolved as powerful as James).

Now, let preface this with, that game really does look pretty cool=)

Anyhow, while the armor reduces damage…Alex is still taking damage from mundane guns and such, while Jackie shrugs attacks like that off in his armor, and that is all the time. Considering Jackie was able to punch through armor (see when he punched through a darkness empowered opponent in the scans in my previous post) capable of withstanding explosions, tank shells and so on, I think he stands a fair shot at hurting someone through armor that only reduces damage, not stops it altogether. And the shield, well, see what I have to say on Heller's shields a little below...

Keep in mind, that the Armor was only shown in Prototype 1 where Alex was considerably weaker. In Prototype 2, he clearly becomes a lot stronger and more adapted to the Black-Light Virus. If Alex had used the Armor in Prototype 2, it would certainly be a lot more efficient.

Indeed, the Armor doesn't completely negate damage as it only nullifies it. However, it nullifies it almost entirely. Base Mercer has already shown to treat the force of the blows that Jackie hits at as futile, so in Armored Form it would evidently be reduced to the absolute minimal damage.

Weak to bladed, piercing type stuff? The guy who isn't even pierced by tank shells? Alright, let's clarify this. That creature, Jackie's “son”, was meant to take his place, and be a pure darkness born being on Earth to do the will of the Darkness, since Jackie was bucking the system. This creature was stronger than Jackie, and much like Jackie, can create the darkness born tendrils for attacks (it didn't have Jackie's creativity with the Darkness though). With the strength and power that thing was packing, it would pierce and take down the prototype boys as well.

But, let's show what happened after Jackie took that overpowered, supernaturally induced attack:

That's right, he gets back up, all healed. To even beat the thing, Jackie had to trick it up into orbit to face the full light of the sun (which of course leads us to the re-entry feat). And Jackie fully faced its attacks, and tanked the damage it dished throughout that whole fight. There is nothing the prototypes can do that I have seen, that this thing cound't do to Jackie. He took punches, piercing damage, and so on, and kept getting back up and fighting, then survived re-entry. Now, the whole fight will get shown eventually, but a few bits and pieces are being saved for some stuff in a bit=)

Now, I could fill the rest of this post up with the tonners Jackie has faced, other people the Darkness has empowered that Jackie has taken down that all have power levels comparable to Jackie, but I have other scans and points to bring to the table, so I will save those for another post.

Perhaps it's true that the creature was stronger than Jackie, however Jackie did show to get pierced by it's bladed tendril. That of which, I have not seen the showings to truly consider the tendril to be aboveboth Prototype's sharp weaponry.

Alex & Heller have showcased the durability to handle piercing attacks and have more destructive and versatile use with their weaponry. They've ripped each other apart in their fight using everything in their arsenal which includes the Blade, Claws, and more abilities that of which i'll get into detail with right now:

Whip-Fist:

The Whipfist is a thin, flexible, blade-edged arm that can be used to attack at extreme range, or whip through entire crowds of enemies. Tame your foes from a safe distance.

Although it's main purpose is to pull enemies closer and to fight at safe distances, the Whip-Fist is surprisingly overpowered.

One swoop has cleared dozens of enemies in an instant, it prevents powerful opponents (Bralwers, Evolved, Super-Soliders) from even coming into contact with Heller or Mercer, and it has blown up helicopters with one blow:

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Hammer-Fists:

Trade speed for power—shift biomass to your forearms to allow deadly area-effect attacks, crush guarding enemies, and shatter armored vehicles. Hammerfist delivers the pain.

It's described as the Anti-Vehicle ability and definitely lives up to that description. The Hammer-Fist can two shot tanks, as the following video will showcase. Although you only have barely a second to notice, the tank that Mercer blows up was at half health and then he one-shots it with the Hammer-Fists:

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Evidently, to one-shot a tank at half of it's health means that Alex could handily two shot it when it's at full health.

Tendrils:

The Tendrils unleashed by Heller, are capable of lifting and tearing apart cars and military vehicles, ensnaring powerful infected beasts, and even ripping large groups of enemies to shreds.

That's one way of using the Tendrils, however the alternative is a far more interesting and destructive move. Heller latches onto a target with the tendrils, and it then releases a black-hole effect which pulls everything into it's vicinity:

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So no, Jackie isn’t really vulnerable to piercing attacks. A piercing attack from a supernatural source with high tonnage strength may be another story here, and to even consider the idea, I’d have to see the claws and blades pierce something capable of withstanding tank shells.

The Prototypes both possess high tonnage striking power (as they've one shotted helicopters with ease) so combine that with their above weaponry, and i'll have no doubt they'll be able to pierce clean through Jackie.

Oh, as you wish. The Claws & Blade definitely do have the showings of piercing tank-shell+ durability. In fact, they've pierced and sliced off the bones & limbs of a creature which military firepower (obviously including tank shells) couldn't do.

That type of creature being, Goliaths:

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You see how Heller aims for the Goliath's leg, and then slices it clean off? Well, that's because only Heller was capable of performing such a thing as firepower was utterly useless.

The same applies to Mercer, he sliced through several bones of Elizabeth Greene where as the military couldn't even chip them:

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Considering you stated to even consider the idea you'd need to see that the weaponry has pierced through material that tank-shells couldn't. Clearly, Alex & Heller's weaponry are dealing far more damage than tank-shells can omit so you'll have something for Jackie to worry about here.

I still maintain Jackie has superior regenerative abilities. Unless it is something that has played on a weakness, Jackie heals instantly from damage. You have seen him crawling around as a torso, and then him up and about just fine. He took mortal gunshot wounds to the torso, and healed instantly when he armored up. He was pierced by his sons attack and again heals instantly. The slowest he healed was from the jawbone and light/radiation combo attack, and both were faster than 1% per second.

From what I understand, the Prototype boys need biomass for their best and speediest healing. Jackie doesn’t need that.

And they heal exceedingly slowly if they don’t consume biomass, which Jackie doesn’t have that drawback. And from what I have seen so far, I believe he has the means to put the hurt on them

I'll concede that Jackie has the superior regenerative abilities as your feats more than suggest. What i'm mainly trying to get at here is that any damage that the Prototypes take from Jackie, their HF is still sufficient to keep them up and running for the battle.

Jackie's real means of dealing significant damage to the Prototypes would require his morphological abilities that of which are highly comparable to Alex & Heller's shape-shifting abilities and will have a great deal of trouble contending with them as it is.

Even then when Jackie does a great deal of damage, they'll heal eventually and Heller's Shields and Mercer's Shield & Armor should suffice.

The problem is, just like Mercer’s shields, those only protect and cover so much of his body. Jackie can create nearly innumerous tentacles to attack from more directions than either can possibly protect themselves from.

Though, I do have a little something special in mind to bring to the table in regards those shields, which you will see in a bit.

Oh I know, except the Shields are mainly for frontal defense if Jackie sends an attack at Heller head on. Once Jackie releases a multidirectional attack, Heller gets out of the way or runs straight for Jackie. Of course, factoring an armored Mercer into the situation too.

And it is a good attack, but with Jackie’s regenerative abilities, it would only be a minor annoyance at best.

It packs far more destructive output than any of the Prototype's previously shown shape-shifting powers. Considering that you even stated that you'll need to consider for Jackie taking any attacks that could surpass tank shell durability.

The Devastator would at least tear Jackie's body to pieces. Granted he will regenerate, but that leaves him open for consumption to whoever didn't perform the devastator, preferably Mercer.

I have seen them lose life to bullets, explosions, and similar type attacks. And considering Jackie's little friends can be armed with such items to do those kinds of damage, and the fact that Jackie can match their shape-shifting abilities, makes me think that what he can do may be a bit more efficient than their attacks.

  • Heller is bullet-proof, and Mercer is already highly-resistant.
  • Perhaps, but severe damage will be done only if you pack an explosion that could exceed a large-building buster (they've both come out of exploding buildings unscathed).
  • Jackie's Darklings will only prove to be an annoyance. If you're going by the weapons route, a Prototype 2 Mercer & Fully-Upgraded Heller wouldn't have any trouble shrugging those off. Firepower has only shown to truly harm the Prototypes if they slack off in the situation. If they're 100% serious, they'll have no trouble.

Speed, Movement, and Battlefield Mobility Stuff:

The thing is, while they have good speed, they aren’t too fast for the eye to follow. Sure they can cover some ground and attack some foes fairly fast, but I haven’t seen anything to lead me to believe that they are out of the league of a bullet timer.

I guess now is as good a time as any to bring up the fact that besides flight, Jackie can also teleport:

He can open up portals:

Which of course runs through an actual extra-dimensional type place:

And he can travel cross country distances:

Couple that with flight, bullet timing ability, the ability to attack from range and summon darklings that can move, think and attack on their own…and a bit more as you will soon see…things get a bit tougher for your crew.

Well I must say that i'm surprised. I definitely have no strong counter for teleportation, nor portal-creation and you have certainly proven that all of this creates a ton of difficulty for the Prototypes.

I suppose all that I could say here, is that Mercer & Heller still have the raw speed to keep up and the fact that they cannot tire out will aid them against Jackie's teleporation and what not.

More Darkling Stuff:

And now, we up the ante just a tad bit more. Let’s start with this: simply clearing the way of darklings is far easier said than done. While your average little darkling may not be much, I did mention (and have shown) that these things come in various sizes and with different levels of durability. Take for instance the scan I already showed of one manhandling Tom Judge (the Rapture), who is a tonner himself with enough strength levels to give Jackie a good fight.

Let’s also take into account, the Angelus. She has always been shown to be on equal footing with Jackie strength wise with the ability to manhandle him from time to time:

But enough darklings can even impede and take down someone of her strength levels (which is about equal to Jackie’s):

And the prototype boys aren't packing a supercharged light based attack to free themselves that I have seen. But let’s up the ante a bit more. These guys can also teleport:

They can move objects through solid matter:

And can drag people away through the shadows:

The best part is, if they get destroyed, just like Jackie told Tom Judge, he can always make more, and he can make a lot of them (earlier days he was a bit more limited, but in more modern times, he has gone beyond such restrictions). He can even make them in a multitude of nightmarishly impossible shapes and sizes, and this can make fighting them difficult. Honestly, how does anyone just clear the way of an ever changing amorphous tentacled blob of a creature with no discernible center mass to even attack? It'll be tough:

And he can turn every shadowed spot and dark place into a virtual warzone:

When they make those shields…won’t there be a nice shadowed spot on the underside of that shield? And Jackie doesn’t even have to be there or touch that spot to do his thing:

Again, i'm vastly impressed at all of this. The small Darklings won't prove much of a battle to the Brawlers, i'm at least certain on that. However like you said and proved, the larger Darklings would cause a lot of problems.

Although i'm not sure if I mentioned it before, but the Brawlers can self-destruct and release a tendril-barrage devastator as a last resort. I'm not sure how it would fair against Jackie's best Darkling, but it would cause a great deal of damage to say the least.

Conclusion:

Even though Jackie clearly takes the versatility, regeneration and perhaps the speed advantages.

The Prototypes themselves have demonstrated to pack enough power in a punch to cause Jackie pain, their shape-shifting abilities will prove a moderate amount of difficulty to Jackie and certainly they possess the durability to soak most of Jackie's attacks.

Although, the Darklings will create a lot of problems.

Alright, that's that post finished up. I should note, i'm having a tremendous amount of difficulty as it is against Jackie, so I doubt i'll have anything spectacular that could turn the tides of this debate.

I was thinking two more posts at the start of reading your post, but then as it progressed I think I could only put together one final post containing the best cards going for the Prototypes in the battle. If I were to do two, my next post wouldn't contain anything notable at all.

So, I hope you can agree to one final post each. If not, you can post as many posts as you like but in all honesty I could only muster one decent post at best so i'll send you a P.M in case you miss this.

Anyway, it's your move mate.

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#35 Edited by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052:

Firstly concerning your last statement, I think two more posts each should do it just fine. The last one being in a conclusive style, but it's up to you.

Sure, sounds good. I am a huge proponent of keeping debates from getting into endless cycles of repeating the same thing over and over again, just using different words. Not that we are at that point, but I'd like to keep quality debate from ever reaching that point. I have not read your full response yet, but I will get to it, and give a response between today and tomorrow, and then we can each get our closing posts in and call it for a vote.

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#36 Edited by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Alrighty, well I guess we will close this bad boy out as per our discussions. It has been an honor debating with you on this, and it has been fun. I’ll start out with some responses, add some new intel and then close out my portion. Hopefully this doesn't get too lengthy, and I apologize if it does, but I’ll do my best to reign myself in, and I will leave a few tidbits out for space, since I have a lot to respond to=)

“Oh they can soak tank-shells, trust me on that. It's just difficult for me to find a specific video where they do as it happens on such a regular basis.”

I’ll just have to take your word for it then, but it seems to me a lot of their damage soak comes from their regen/consumption abilities, much like their ability to tank bullets.

“I fail to see the logic in how you'd back up the claim of "explosive damage consists of every damage-type there is", especially in regards to how Jackie would withstand the types of attacks the Prototypes dish out being not solely Blunt-Force but primarily Piercing Damage.”

Let’s just say that due to the nature of my job, I have seen plenty of injuries from explosives, so when I say it involves the majority of types of damage that can be done to a human body; I know what I am talking about having seen it firsthand. You have four phases of injury in a blast/explosion, which involves things like overpressure waves, penetrating/slashing trauma from objects being flung at high rates of speed, blunt force trauma from being flung around and objects being flung into you, burns, and so on. It’s not just an explosion with some heat and fire, and I have shown you Jackie tanking several different explosions, one of them that leveled a mansion (and that is a lot of explosive force to level a mansion), which most definitely involves those types of damage.

And not to mention that those pieces of the mansion were flung every which way in the leveling, and the idea that everything just missed Jackie is impossible. You want to talk piercing damage from an explosion, there was once a bit of an explosion at a shop, and there was metal pole blown straight through a guy (something that most people should never have to see). I’d call that piercing damage. Jackie withstood an explosion that leveled a mansion, and you cannot tell me that nothing got flung around at a high rate of speed, and that Jackie remained un-hit by any of it.

I know the truth of my logic, because it is true, factual, and I have seen it with my own eyes (not trying to get all dark and emo here, just stating a fact).

“You cannot necessarily use Jackie's feats of surviving reentry or explosions to compare his durability to how he'd handle getting pierced clean through by Heller's Blade, or Mercer's Claws. I'm just saying, it doesn't make any sense how you'd compare a stab wound from a sword to explosive damage from a grenade.”

See the above. Explosions involve a lot of types of damage, and he was hit with more than just a grenade. Grenades don’t level mansions=)

But, we also have him getting pierced from his son and healing without issue (he has also faced other Darkness users who do piercing damage as well and of course the fact that bullets cannot pierce his armor), and tanking re-entry, which again, making contact with the ground and leaving a crater is massive blunt force trauma on a scale that I don’t think the Prototype boys can dish out. Jackie’s durability really isn’t a question from all I have shared.

“They won't be taking anything they can't handle from Jackie, blunt-force is the weakest form of output you could throw at the Prototypes. I have showcased both of them one-shotting helicopters just like Jackie can.”

If bullets from the military and monster’s fists can hurt them, then I dare say Jackie won’t have any issues in that arena. Jackie does more, far more than blunt force trauma (I have shown you piercing, slashing and such), and you’ll see more towards the end of this little diatribe.

“I once attempted to take Mercer using just my fists (the very fists that have one shotted the helicopters) yet you should haven seen how futile that was. Mercer also never tried to attack Heller using blunt-force, because he would have known how useless it would prove.”

Yet again, I have seen where they are able to be hurt by bullets and monsters, and I have to question if they take damage from falls from the tops of buildings…they glide, so they must not want to hit the ground all that hard.

“While indeed Jackie does hit hard, he hasn't shown anything in the Striking Power department that the Prototypes couldn't easily tank. It would be a mistake for Jackie to step in a boxing ring with either Prototype, let alone simultaneously.”

Until he uses that chopper and tank busting strength to pierce them with multiple tendrils and such. Or he punches a clawed hand through their bodies, like we have seen him do to another darkness user. Even then, I am still not convinced that he couldn't hurt them with blunt force, since I have seen monsters in some of the videos doing as such.

“Again, Blunt-Force/Piercing-Damage =/= (does not equal) Explosive-Damage. You cannot accurately compare the two. From what you've shown me, Jackie's durability is ripe in terms of Explosive Damage but has not shown a lot or exceeding in terms of the type of damage the Prototypes both dish out and tank same-fold.”

We covered this one enough I think. Though to be honest, if I were at home and had access to my full set of scans, I could get you a few battles of him versus other Darkness users all with comparable strength levels, and you could see him tanking more direct piercing and blunt force...but him tanking hits from tank shells that failed to pierce his armor and healing nearly instantly from his sons attacks still do the job nicely=)

“I'm not saying that Jackie is vehemently outmatched in the aspect(s), but I wouldn't rely on the thought of him matching or exceeding the Prototypes in the Blunt-Force/Piercing-Damage aspects and he certainly is not damaging them to the point where he gains the edge over the Prototypes in those two fields either.”

I disagree based on what I have seen, but here in a bit, I’ll add more to up the ante one final time to expand on the ideas of just what kind of damage Jackie can bring to the table.

“Like I said, Mercer has shown to treat helicopter-busting punches like they're nothing and Heller shares almost identically comparable durability (evident by the fact that Mercer didn't even attempt to face Heller using solely blunt-force, he is far too smart to do so as he would know that Blunt-Force is useless against an Evolved as powerful as James).”

And again, I have seen where monsters have affected them with blunt force, and blunt force isn’t all Jackie will be doing to them.

“Keep in mind, that the Armor was only shown in Prototype 1 where Alex was considerably weaker. In Prototype 2, he clearly becomes a lot stronger and more adapted to the Black-Light Virus. If Alex had used the Armor in Prototype 2, it would certainly be a lot more efficient. Indeed, the Armor doesn't completely negate damage as it only nullifies it. However, it nullifies it almost entirely. Base Mercer has already shown to treat the force of the blows that Jackie hits at as futile, so in Armored Form it would evidently be reduced to the absolute minimal damage.”

I do have a way around the armor issue, as you will see at the end, but I still don’t see it as being too much of an issue if all it does is lessen damage, not stop it altogether. I also heavily disagree with the idea that base Mercer treats the kind of hits Jackie throws as futile, especially considering Jackie's full repertoire of abilities. If the prototypes can indeed hurt, pierce, and harm one another, if the monsters they face can do the same, then there has been nothing shown on their end that states Jackie can't hurt them with his piercing and blunt attacks. Not that Jackie even needs to resort to those kinds of attacks, as he has plenty of other options.

“Perhaps it's true that the creature was stronger than Jackie, however Jackie did show to get pierced by it's bladed tendril. That of which, I have not seen the showings to truly consider the tendril to be above both Prototype's sharp weaponry. Alex & Heller have showcased the durability to handle piercing attacks and have more destructive and versatile use with their weaponry.”

That tendril was also a darkness originated attack, which is supernatural in origin. I have yet to see a non-supernatural attack pierce his armor, but won’t fully count it out. His healing rate though will deal with any damage that does get through. Jackie's tendrils have proven capable of attacking multiple foes, and from range, foes that he is not even looking at or aware of. His son's tendrils pierced armor that has deflected bullets, tank shells, the attacks of pissed off Angelus and so on. I'd say they have proven plenty.

Of course I could also mention that the tendrils are simply an extension of the Darkness, as are all of Jackie's attacks. Jackie's power to one shot a copter or tear up a tank? All thanks to the Darkness, and the tendrils are quite simply an extension of his Darkness empowered body. They aren't lacking for strength and power.

“Although it's main purpose is to pull enemies closer and to fight at safe distances, the Whip-Fist is surprisingly overpowered. One swoop has cleared dozens of enemies in an instant, it prevents powerful opponents (Bralwers, Evolved, Super-Soliders) from even coming into contact with Heller or Mercer, and it has blown up helicopters with one blow:

It's described as the Anti-Vehicle ability and definitely lives up to that description. The Hammer-Fist can two shot tanks, as the following video will showcase. Although you only have barely a second to notice, the tank that Mercer blows up was at half health and then he one-shots it with the Hammer-Fists:”

And while they are cool attacks, they are avoidable by someone who can teleport and can play the ranged game, not to mention his healing factor. Jackie could also replicate those effects. I’ve shown under strength where he demolished the car in one hit, and if you look close, you’ll see his hand/arm is in a warhammer type shape. As well, you have seen where he can extend his body parts Mr Fantastic style, and created tendrils capable of slicing and dicing at range.

With the strength to one shot a helicopter and rip up tanks, and his morphological abilities, I’d say he can more than pull off these tricks himself or even create something that can.

“That's one way of using the Tendrils, however the alternative is a far more interesting and destructive move. Heller latches onto a target with the tendrils, and it then releases a black-hole effect which pulls everything into it's vicinity:”

Awesome attack, but as above, is something Jackie can teleport out of. And Jackie’s tendrils and creations have the strength and ability to pull things around and to them (I have shown his tendrils grabbing people, pulling them around and more). This is another effect that Jackie more than has the ability to pull off.

“Considering you stated to even consider the idea you'd need to see that the weaponry has pierced through material that tank-shells couldn't. Clearly, Alex & Heller's weaponry are dealing far more damage than tank-shells can omit so you'll have something for Jackie to worry about here.”

Though again, these aren't supernatural based attacks, and I have yet to see anything less actually pierce his armor. I do admit, you make a compelling case for it though, and I also admit, it would hurt if it got through, but it is nothing Jackie’s healing could not take care of, especially since they have nothing to really even play off of his weakness in their repertoire that I have seen.

“I'll concede that Jackie has the superior regenerative abilities as your feats more than suggest. What i'm mainly trying to get at here is that any damage that the Prototypes take from Jackie, their HF is still sufficient to keep them up and running for the battle.”

It is enough to keep them up and running, on that I agree, more so than quite a few of Jackie’s foes.

“Jackie's real means of dealing significant damage to the Prototypes would require his morphological abilities that of which are highly comparable to Alex & Heller's shape-shifting abilities and will have a great deal of trouble contending with them as it is. Even then when Jackie does a great deal of damage, they'll heal eventually and Heller's Shields and Mercer's Shield & Armor should suffice.”

Again, something I will get to at the end and while the morph stuff may be the old standby, Jackie has plenty of other means to hurt a foe.

“Oh I know, except the Shields are mainly for frontal defense if Jackie sends an attack at Heller head on. Once Jackie releases a multidirectional attack, Heller gets out of the way or runs straight for Jackie. Of course, factoring an armored Mercer into the situation too.”

The shields are good until a tentacled horror capable of being a bit more than an annoyance to tonners appears from the shadows under the shield and starts doing it’s thing=)

“It packs far more destructive output than any of the Prototype's previously shown shape-shifting powers. Considering that you even stated that you'll need to consider for Jackie taking any attacks that could surpass tank shell durability. The Devastator would at least tear Jackie's body to pieces. Granted he will regenerate, but that leaves him open for consumption to whoever didn't perform the devastator, preferably Mercer. ”

It’s definitely something to consider, but my doubts are still the same for reasons stated. I don’t want to sound too nonchalant and dismissive about it though, and do concede that it is a good and damaging attack, and if anything in their arsenal is going to hurt Jackie, this would be the one. Though they lack one thing to really and truly do any lasting damage to Jackie: some sort of light based attack.

Now, let’s discuss consumption: I have a little something to bring to the table on that front, and am surprised this ability wasn't brought up earlier in regards to Jackie’s darklings. Unless the Prototype boys have proven to be able to consume shadows, then I don’t see the ability working on Jackie or his creations.

Pure Darkness:

Let’s start with the darklings. These guys aren't real and true matter, nor are they truly biological in the sense that modern science would know. These things are pure shadow given form, and fully supernatural. Let’s look what happens when they hit sunlight:

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That should be proof enough that they aren't bio-matter by any stretch of the imagination. Not to mention, that when consumed, these supernatural baddies tend to have a profound effect on people:

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Now, what about Jackie? I mean we saw his armor fade under the sunlight and he had a human body? Well, Jackie is full on darkness to the cellular level:

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To the point that his body even rejects food:

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When in the dark, his body is as malleable as the darkness he works with:

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So while the light of the sun may drive the darkness back, there isn't any sunlight in this fight, and the lights at the location aren’t enough to really change this. The prototype boys work with real, flesh and blood beings. Jackie and his darklings don’t play by the rules of flesh and blood creatures, and unless your team can eat shadows, then they won’t be dining on Jackie and darklings.

“Heller is bullet-proof, and Mercer is already highly-resistant. Perhaps, but severe damage will be done only if you pack an explosion that could exceed a large-building buster (they've both come out of exploding buildings unscathed). Jackie's Darklings will only prove to be an annoyance. If you're going by the weapons route, a Prototype 2 Mercer & Fully-Upgraded Heller wouldn't have any trouble shrugging those off. Firepower has only shown to truly harm the Prototypes if they slack off in the situation. If they're 100% serious, they'll have no trouble.”

We will touch on more this really very shortly here, but let me hit up the rest of your points.

“Well I must say that i'm surprised. I definitely have no strong counter for teleportation, nor portal-creation and you have certainly proven that all of this creates a ton of difficulty for the Prototypes. I suppose all that I could say here, is that Mercer & Heller still have the raw speed to keep up and the fact that they cannot tire out will aid them against Jackie's teleporation and what not.”

They do have the speed advantage; I still cannot deny that, it just still seems to me to be something that a bullet timer with Jackie’s versatility could counter.

“Again, i'm vastly impressed at all of this. The small Darklings won't prove much of a battle to the Brawlers, i'm at least certain on that. However like you said and proved, the larger Darklings would cause a lot of problems. Although i'm not sure if I mentioned it before, but the Brawlers can self-destruct and release a tendril-barrage devastator as a last resort. I'm not sure how it would fair against Jackie's best Darkling, but it would cause a great deal of damage to say the least.”

Well, technically Jackie’s darklings could pull the explosion feat as well, and really whatever Jackie wants them to do based on his darkness manipulation. I am not going to blitz the rest of the post with every single showing of what the darkness can and can’t do, but now is as good a time as any to bring forth some information I was hinting at, since this point is a nice segue into all of it.

Darkness Manipulation:

In the scan where I showed his body rejecting food, there is passage that states he can work the darkness on a molecular level. He is the equivalent of a molecular manipulator with the darkness, and as such, can do a multitude of things. For instance, he can create a type of darkness energy projection, capable of tearing up giants:

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He can generate electricity:

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Create water (note that this was done to a being of pure darkness, and I am not stating he would turn their attacks to water, this just illustrates what he can do, and his creativity in combat):

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Working computers:

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Corrosive solvents:

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And even rebuild someone cell by cell:

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Or he can cause the darkness (of which darklings are) to quite simply go “boom”:

No Caption Provided

Then there is also the fact that all darkness is his domain, even the darkness inside of all objects, beings, and so on (a lot of darkness in the body down to the cellular/molecular/etc level), which he can and has manipulated. He doesn't have to move, blink or even touch them for this little trick:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In the end, Jackie is exceedingly versatile, and has way more tools than he needs to win this fight, even with me leaving some things out. The Prototype armor is impressive, and their durability is good, but Jackie can still get them from the inside of their bodies. Not to mention, that what he creates doesn't have to go away or stop unless he makes it stop, or unless they can get some sunlight on their insides.

In Closing:

So, I’ll be honest, had I known anything about the Prototypes ahead of time, I would have limited Jackie a bit for this fight. As it is, I think you did an awesome job with the Prototypes, and I can see where people would think a good debate could come out of this, because honestly, we did have a good debate.

I truly and wholeheartedly commend you for rocking your end of things and not holding back. I asked you to come at me full force, and you did not disappoint=)

And so closes out my post, I’ll answer any questions if you have them, but my main portion is at an end, and I think we are good if you want to call the vote.

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#37 Posted by Pope052 (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong:

Nice finisher, and i'm fine with opening the votes now. Had I known about Jackie before I got into this CAV, then I would have had second thoughts. I tried my best but ultimately you clearly had the upper hand. You did fantastic and debating against you was a pleasure mate, I hope to do it again sometime.

So by all means, let's get to the votes:

Voting Open:

@neongamewave@strider92@undinehuntertitan@granitesoldier@wolverine08@jonsmith@dajhonmccloud@dondave

Feel free to call out any users you'd like.

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#38 Posted by IcePrince_X (5092 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for wyldsong for a blow by blow counter defense and offense to the facts presented to Pope052. But I commend Pope052 who even accepted his gentleman's defeat over this debate as he can not counter certain power set by the Darkness such as its ability of teleportation or its cellular level attachment and manipulation of the host.

(I hope I got this right and it gets counted)

Really got entertained by this alot.

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#39 Edited by NeonGameWave (19333 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate was one of the best :) I really was entertained, enlightened and excited by the level of detail within the debate itself both debaters showcased their super-strong engaged knowledge of their respective character and me being a massive fan of both the Darkness as well as the Prototypes, I am honored to have seen a debate like this that exudes so much caliber in terms of who wins in a scenario that involves the characters, I see it as more of a stalemate because I really think although Jackie may have the hard-edge versatility that might seem unavoidable which is teleportation, I think the Prototypes can still finds ways of staying out of contact or harms way that is involved with the method of BFR also they can consume each other or the other residents to blend in with their natural surroundings and Jackie can`t really K.O them neither can he kill them so it really boils down to who will outlast the other and by that, I think it will become a stalemate. I just wanted to get my thoughts out cause this debate and match-up is so uniquely remarkable that it calls for my attention on how a crossover scenario would look like in regards and in relation to who won the debate. I have to say that it is again a.....

Stalemate

Now the reason why is because although @pope052 may have honorably admitted his defeat, I don`t think that necessarily means he was defeated he battled through and through against @wyldsong`s heavily layered arguments of tremendous point-productivity but he also was able to even out the plain field with his eloquent, strong and sound explanations on why the Prototypes would be more than a match for Jackie me being a knowledgeable individual of both The Darkness and The Prototypes have full confidence to call this a draw, the argumentation, points, clearances, combative vocabularies and earnest explanations are phenomenally well balanced and although I disagree with @wyldsong`s point about portal manipulation being a 10/10 BFR win for Jackie, I agree with the fact that it will prove to be something new and difficult for the Prototypes but they can manage around it which would include utilizing the Tendril Vortex techniques.

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#40 Edited by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: Thanks for the well thought out statement (though I disagree on the teleportation bit, but c'est la vie, I won't argue it here my friend)! By the way, expect to see full on Darkness respect thread coming soon=)

@iceprince_x: You did fine my friend, and thanks for coming in with the vote and opinion on the battle!

And I hope between the shout outs you left @pope052 and the following, we get enough votes in!

@jmarshmallow@cadencev2@homicidalmaniac@jonsmith@undinehuntertitan@jashro44@higorm

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#41 Posted by JonSmith (4529 posts) - - Show Bio

WHY HAVE I BEEN SUMMONED HERE?!

Oh.

Reading time.

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#42 Edited by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonsmith: Lol...sorry, you commented on the thread and got tagged=P

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#43 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: I think this was a uphill battle from the get go. You cinch the deal. You got my vote.

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#44 Posted by JonSmith (4529 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

Lol...sorry, you commented on the thread and got tagged=P

S'all good, I wanted to see how this thread turned out.

Having finished reading the thread, I've got to give it to you/Jackie, though it was an amazing debate, and you should both be proud.

Though I confess I'm surprised about a few things from Pope's debate: He didn't mention the Critical Pain Devastator, arguably both Alex and James' most powerful attack, which focuses on hitting a single target for massive damage, a move capable of one or two shotting a Goliath. Nor did he take advantage of the stipulation that they can consume each other if necessary, which both have done to an amazing amp: Alex consumed many Evolved prior to the final battle with James, with some ampage in his power and control abilities. After beating Alex, James consumed him and subsequently unleashed a city-wide Tendril Devastator.

In the same vein, he didn't mention that Alex can control basic Infected, as was shown by Alex controlling those infected birds, which might have provided a counter to Jackie's Darklings, though given the location, I suppose that's understandable.

But I'm nitpicking. Very well done, both of you. Best debate I've seen on ComicVine thus far.

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#45 Posted by Jmarshmallow (13840 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate was one of the best :) I really was entertained, enlightened and excited by the level of detail within the debate itself both debaters showcased their super-strong engaged knowledge of their respective character and me being a massive fan of both the Darkness as well as the Prototypes, I am honored to have seen a debate like this that exudes so much caliber in terms of who wins in a scenario that involves the characters, I see it as more of a stalemate because I really think although Jackie may have the hard-edge versatility that might seem unavoidable which is teleportation, I think the Prototypes can still finds ways of staying out of contact or harms way that is involved with the method of BFR also they can consume each other or the other residents to blend in with their natural surroundings and Jackie can`t really K.O them neither can he kill them so it really boils down to who will outlast the other and by that, I think it will become a stalemate. I just wanted to get my thoughts out cause this debate and match-up is so uniquely remarkable that it calls for my attention on how a crossover scenario would look like in regards and in relation to who won the debate. I have to say that it is again a.....

Stalemate

Now the reason why is because although @pope052 may have honorably admitted his defeat, I don`t think that necessarily means he was defeated he battled through and through against @wyldsong`s heavily layered arguments of tremendous point-productivity but he also was able to even out the plain field with his eloquent, strong and sound explanations on why the Prototypes would be more than a match for Jackie me being a knowledgeable individual of both The Darkness and The Prototypes have full confidence to call this a draw, the argumentation, points, clearances, combative vocabularies and earnest explanations are phenomenally well balanced and although I disagree with @wyldsong`s point about portal manipulation being a 10/10 BFR win for Jackie, I agree with the fact that it will prove to be something new and difficult for the Prototypes but they can manage around it which would include utilizing the Tendril Vortex techniques.

Man, I really want to agree with this. You both did great, and Neon is right, you both deserve applause. Easily one of the best CaVs I've seen.

However, stalemate doesn't strike me as a satisfying conclusion to a CaV. So with that being said, the winner is, by an extremelysmall margin.....@wyldsong.

It was an immensely difficult decision for me to choose one over the other. The deciding factor was that it seemed like towards the end, @pope052 realized how much of an uphill battle it really was, and started to lose faith in the Prototype boys. His last couple of posts weren't as thorough as they were when he started out.

Don't get me wrong, he did great. It was just a small thing that I feel put wyldsong ahead.

Great job guys! I truly enjoyed reading your CaV, and I think both of you are stellar debaters.

Jmarshmallow

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#46 Posted by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

bumping for votage

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#48 Edited by UndinehunterTitan (296 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: It was a great and lengthy battle. But it was worth it. I kept switching sides between the two until the conclusion. That's the part where I really had to compare you guys.

All three are badass and all. Yes all three are gruesome. I love Alex Mercer more than any of the three. But in the end I have to give it to the Darkness Team. What really took it for me was the feat against the Angelus argument. I would consider it sealing the fate of the prototype team, well most of them. One of the main problems why Alex and James often does not do well against more supernatural or fantastical enemies, is their pure focus on manipulating biomass and weapons.

They're both more of an invader, slowly consume them one by one, weakest to strongest. If they started in Darkness verse without anyone knowing them. However true to the above I think Pope kinda lost faith too with the Prototype team. He still fought hard and kept on going with the duo, but in the end, the darkness is just too much for the Prototypes.

Have to go with Jackie on this one. Its like that cole vs alex one, a bit of a mismatch if the strongest is used.

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#49 Posted by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by leonkarlen123 (8815 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Just read this and he didn't toss a tank, it was a APC which weights about 30 tons but yeah at's still hella impressive. He could prob lift a tank with one hand with some difficulty as well.