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#151 Posted by Cull_Obsidian (3863 posts) - - Show Bio
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#152 Posted by Cull_Obsidian (3863 posts) - - Show Bio
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#153 Posted by shirso (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@cull_obsidian: Yeah getting along. Sorry for the delay. But this will finish.

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#154 Posted by shirso (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

bump, hopefully I can post soon.

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#155 Posted by Cull_Obsidian (3863 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: No worries look forward to it

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#156 Posted by Cull_Obsidian (3863 posts) - - Show Bio
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#157 Posted by shirso (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@cull_obsidian: Ok, it's quite long. Will try to read through and vote.

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#158 Posted by Cull_Obsidian (3863 posts) - - Show Bio
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#159 Posted by shirso (4019 posts) - - Show Bio
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#160 Posted by Cull_Obsidian (3863 posts) - - Show Bio
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#161 Posted by shirso (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@cull_obsidian: Just about a week more lol and then I will have spring break.

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#162 Posted by Cull_Obsidian (3863 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: No worries mate, there's no rush, take your time

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#163 Posted by shirso (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@cull_obsidian:

Apologies for the delay. But back to this:)

Thanos vs Hax

Whether or not Thanos has a counter for the assortment of hax that Midora brings to the table is a huge part of this matchup, so let's get to it :)

I agree his hax are really dangerous, but why would he be a teambuster? A team like The Annihilators would most likely stomp him.

Not really, Midora would beat The Annihilators, pretty easily at that, as Surfer is the only one that's remotely a threat, but that discussion is for another day.

Proof that it has the ability to consume a being on the level of Thanos given his durability?

The whole hax bypasses durability argument will not cut it I'm afraid, there needs to be some workable reasoning

Why would a tongue work where a massive black hole didn't? Also any feats of the ability working on someone that's imbued with the power cosmic?

Again if a black hole couldn't obliterate Thanos then I don't see how this Hungry space will be able to destroy him. Sounds like a NLF to me.

You may say, that the black hole is nothing like Hungry space, sure but it's environment is way way harsher then Midora's attack, its clearly not as powerful as the black hole otherwise he would be black hole level and don't even try to argue for that lol

Fortunately, Hungry Space does have feats of working on a character who no sold a black hole, namely Acacia.

Acacia has no sold the pull of Whale King's Black hole.

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Acacia manages to launch a counter attack even while being sucked by the intense gravity of Moon's Black Hole, and as you can see in the last scan, he isn't even bothered by being entirely inside the Black Hole.

Moon's belly is a legit black hole as it's said that you need to go FTL to escape it's pull.

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Also that was a much weaker version of Acacia that was undamaged by being inside a black hole. Midora's Hungry Space took chunks out of the final, much more powerful version of Acacia.

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And iirc, Thanos was never directly inside the artificial singularity he tanked, at least its not clear from the issue and what it seems like is that Thanos just teleported away after his space ship got destroyed.

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So Thanos wasn't actually ever inside the Black Hole, just in its vicinity, and yet he was damaged from the encounter.

Acacia on the other hand, completely no sold even being directly inside one, in a weaker version.

So yeah, Midora's Hungry attacks would take chunks out of Thanos as well, and unlike Acacia he doesn't have a healing factor, so this is pretty much a one shot.

A planet sized tongue, great but being planetary in size doesn't mean its planetary in potency.

I have shown feats for its potency, affecting a much stronger Acacia compared to one who already no sold being inside a Black Hole.

And the tongue being planetary sized just shows Midora's absurd range, which is useful for obvious reasons.

Whats stopping Thanos from ripping it out of his mouth?

Well, first of all, its way too fast for Thanos to consistently react to.

Midora has extended his tongue deep into outer space in a panel, meaning he can easily fire his tongue at FTL speeds.

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He has also been able to rescue Toriko and Starjun by grabbing them with his tongue before Acacia could crush them.

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Acacia is FTL at bare minimum as even you admit, so this feat with the previous one proves Midora's Hungry Tongue consistently fires at FTL speeds.

Tearing it out is out of the question because Thanos just physically touching it would disintegrate him at the atomic level, and I have proven that the attack has feats of working on characters as durable, if not more so, than Thanos.

Not that I think Thanos is strong or fast enough to do something like this anyway.

Or blasting it to pieces?

The Tongue is too fast and durable for that but Midora can always regenerate it back, and he can seemingly duplicate these tongues on a whim.

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Yeah in the Toriko verse, the square root law is a real life concept but there's no proof that it would apply to the Marvel verse and that it would affect Thanos

Not Toriko verse, its a statistical phenomenon even in real life.

In any natural system of particles, a number equal to the square root of the gross total would show some error or exceptional behavior. This is a statistical law found in nature. That is why living systems comprise trillions of atoms to smooth out the unnatural conduct of these renegade atoms.

Now what Minority World does is, reverse the probability distribution of these particles, making the "minority" the "majority", so that the behavior of the miniscule percentage of exceptions start dominating the overall behavior of the entire system.

That's Minority World in a nutshell.

If you are interested, the University of Berkeley has an excellent lecture on the Square Root Law in statistics.

he is an Eternal and they have almost complete control over his body and atoms, him being the most powerful Eternal further solidifies his ability,. He doesn't use it much because he doesn't need to or even had to.

In that case, can you show me feats for Thanos ever resisting an attack that affects him at the atomic level?

Your presuming that Thanos even has this tiny percentage that go against the majority of his Cells?

Yeah think about it, not just Thanos, we all have a tiny minority of cells which are malfunctioning or otherwise damaged, but in general it doesn't affect us because they are the overwhelming minority. When they do start to dominate though, we get nasty effects like cancer for instance.

Never miss? So effectively a NLF. Where was it stated or shown that this is the case?

Not "Never miss" per se, think of it like this, say you are playing darts, obviously the probability of you hitting a bullseye is <<<<<< the probability of you not right? Let's say you throw a dart, probability of you hitting Bullseye is 1%, and probability of you missing is 99%.

Well Minority World simply reverses this probability so now you are hitting bullseye an overwhelming times than not.

If it can actually affect your opponent from a different verse with completely different laws, one with the power cosmic at that

There's nothing fundamentally different about Thanos for the ability to not work on him, he is still composed of atoms, and his physiology is still similar to normal human physiology to a large extent. Nor have you shown feats for Thanos having control over his body at an atomic level.

Sounds nasty, but I'm sure Thanos has enough sheer strength of will to push through, just like he did during his journey to the Nexus of reality where multiple realities exerted their influence on him and he tanked it, things like being turned to glass, melting and being pulled apart amongst others.

None of that proves he has what it takes to resist an internal attack like this though. Also Minority World isn't exactly reality warping. It's more making your body work against yourself. Thanos needs atomic level control over his own body to resist something like that, which you haven't shown feats for.

Thanos getting affected in the Nexus in fact shows he isn't immune to his body getting transmuted/matter manipulated, so I don't see what you wished to prove from that scan.

And Thanos would resist stuff like his heart pumping blood backwards through "strength of will"? Seriously?

Nice, in reality this is probably what he will use it for the most. Thanos can also do this, but I dont need to showcase this yet.

By all means show a scan of Thanos ever demonstrating a healing factor. I know he doesn't have one.

So you are presuming that Midora will be able to reverse Thanos' attacks

Yes, unless Thanos has feats against this kind of thing.

Kool, this is something that Thanos can do aswell, he did it to Drax during The Thanos imperative

Where did you get Thanos "atomized" Drax from there?

In summary, these will be useless if it cannot get past shields. Making attacks must have a limit otherwise its a NLF. same with the accuracy of your own attacks, the next two are basically local low level reality warping nothing that Thanos hasn't seen before.

What team members? Also Thanos has his shields, I haven't gone over them much in this post but I will do next post, he has survived disintigrating and similar attacks

Shields may stop Midora's Hungry Tongue barrage but not Minority World.

I need more context behind this, why do you say its a planetary AOE what planets did it destroy

Not potency, I said the attack had planetary AoE, which it did considering the size of the Toriko planet.

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Which means characters with high regen ability could survive Minority World

Um no, Gourmet Luch isn't regeneration, its probability manipulation potent enough to make the wielder come back from atomization.

Thanos lacks a healing factor anyway.

This is a trait that you will find out about Thanos aswell.

So far not seeing it.

Piccolo can do this, but you wouldn't argue that he could take Thanos

Um, because Piccolo has neither the damage output, hax or stats that Midora does? What's your point?

Interesting, how long did this take?

Instantly as you can tell from the scan.

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Basically Midora was in a space infested with these carnivorous fungi which were constantly decomposing his body, and he was constantly regenerating back.

But I doubt he will be invisible to Thanos' cosmic senses

True. Invisiblity won't matter much against Thanos.

This can be useful, but what are the limitations and has he ever failed to copy an ability? Can he copy other forms of abilities that require quite cosmic powers to work

No it hasn't ever failed. Gourmet Energy is essentially the Toriko verse' version of Power cosmic so I don't see why not. Has Thanos ever resisted power copying on this scale btw?

Conclusion:

  • Hungry attacks have worked on people as durable as Thanos.
  • Thanos as of now has shown no feats of controlling his body at an atomic scale and as such can't do anything against Minority World.
  • Gourmet Luck still makes Midora near invincible.
  • Thanos has shown no feats against power copying, so that's definitely on the table the more the fight drags.

Can Thanos keep up?

All the strength in the world's for naught if you are a statue, so can the Mad Titan keep up? Let's find out :)

First, let's see what you had to say to the feats I presented.

Ok..... You know that's not even close to 0.01% the speed of light?

But I'll listen to why it's impressive

All this shows is that Midora is more durable then Joie and that he is really fast , attacking 8 times 0.01 seconds isn't even close to half light speed so I fail to see how this is as impressive as you say.

Um, didn't you read the feats I presented for Joie? Counter blitzing her 8 times in 0.01 seconds is wickedly impressive because Joie himself has FTL reactions.

There is no mention of it reaching a different star system at all, it zooms past a few planets that look like they are in the same system, sure reacting to a laser is a fairly constant and reliable Light speed reaction

No, the way the leftmost figure is drawn closely resembles a different star system if you compare with real world photographs of star systems taken by NASA

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vs

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And even in the scan, you can see its a cluster of planets and stars, entirely different from the system the Toriko planet is a part of.

Even if you don't want to accept the laser moved to a different star system, it still clearly covered interplanetary distances in seconds as you can see from the scan, which would still put it dozens of times FTL comfortably.

A quick google search reveals light takes more than 3 minutes to travel to Mars from Earth, while Derous' laser covered similar distances in seconds.

You said 'try' meaning he didn't successfully intercept the laser meaning he would be below FTL in that instance anyway

Wrong, he couldn't successfully intercept it because the laser was too powerful, not because he wasn't fast enough to do so.

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As you can see, he clearly throws his attack in the time the laser moves a few dozen metres. It's not strong enough to stop the laser, that's different but he did react to the attack, no question, hence putting her at solidly FTL.

All in all sure he's FTL but I see no evidence at all that he is MFTL, there is a huge jump between faster then light and massively faster then light. It's not just a case of a bit faster but multiple times faster then light

You mean Acacia? I already showed him reacting to and attacking while being sucked into a black hole (which by definition, would pull him in at FTL speeds), so Acacia is already FTL and Midora blitzed him by jumping into space and punching him before he could react.

Acacia in weaker forms also has other irrefutably FTL feats, dodging and flipping through GOD's tongue for instance.

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Impressive because that weird looking frog's tongue is absurdly fast, being able to reach and grab the moon in 2 panels after it had been deflected (so speed likely reduced)

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And then there's even more impressive feats for this tongue, like casually moving through the entire Earth, back and forth, multiple times(at least 5) in what appears to be an instant.

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The Toriko world has a circumference of 220,000km so this is again a FTL feat

So all in all, Midora is comfortably FTL, and in fact much above, via counter blitzing a character 8 times in 0.01 second who reacted to a FTL laser at close range, or keeping up with and even blitzing final form Acacia, who has shown FTL feats even in weaker forms.

Now let's see the feats you presented for Thanos.

He not only perceived her but reacted to her in a physical way by grabbing her by the neck, this was her latest suit and latest iron man type armour, Tony's suits can go Mach 5, which is 5 times the speed of sound

How is reacting to Mach 5 supposed to be impressive when dealing with FTL characters lol?

This scan shows Thanos dodging a laser which as you know is obviously light speed

Lol wut? No, lasers in fiction in general aren't light speed, otherwise literally every street leveller would be FTL lol

The mystical Asguardian hammers of Thor and Beta Ray Bill can and have flown at over slight speed, especially when Thor winds up his shot to maximize speed against an enemy

As you can see here all it takes is an absolute casual hand wave to react and stop the hammer.

Thor's Mjolnir throws aren't consistently light speed, at least not when he throws them in combat. Plenty of slower characters, like Hulk, Mangog, Malekith, etc have reacted to his Mjolnir throws, and even still this is just reactions, not combat speed. Can you show me instances of Thanos physically blitzing a character with consistently FTL reactions?

This scan shows Thanos casually reacting to an attack from a blitzing Silver Surfer

Not a blitzing Surfer, he just reacted to Surfer's blast, whose speed we have no way of knowing.

Teleportation

Although not technically speed, his Teleportation technology and also his natural ability are very effective in battle and can definitly provide a way out or a tight situation or invaluable maneuver capabilities.

Examples include

Against Annihilus using portals in the middle of the battle

Not sure how this will be useful in battle unless Thanos plans on bfr'ing himself. Could you elaborate a bit on exactly what you plan to use this for?

Conclusion

You didn't even show a single, irrefutably FTL combat speed feat from Thanos in your opener. The best you have is him reacting to Mjolnir/Stormbreaker throws but slower characters have reacted to Mjolnir throws which makes me doubt whether Thor throws them consistently at FTL speeds in combat.

And even so, it's all reactions. You didn't show Thanos ever blitzing a FTL character physically, so his combat speed is still laughably below Midora's.

So all in all, No, Thanos can't keep up.

The Telepathy issue

D

Lol really? Your actually trying to equate this to large planet level telepathy? As I have said before, this is NOT conventional telepathy at all or any kind of telepathy, and is NOT psionic based so will not offer any defence to telepathic attack, it has more in common with conquerors Haki from One Piece then psionic abilities

Not really, you have to understand Bambina just being angry and showing his true form for a moment instilled a deep sense of fear into every living creature all over the world, and this is a planet much much larger than Marvel earth.

Just look at the scans:

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This is literally just a character who is tiers below Midora flexing and driving every creature in a Neptune sized planet into a panic. The only way it's different from telepathy in Marvel is that it's not called telepathy in the Toriko verse and its something that's involuntarily and passively emitted when Toriko top tiers fight.

Make no mistake, Intimidation from Toriko would indeed be classified as telepathy if it existed in the Marvel universe, the effects are exactly similar.

For instance, Silver Surfer, a powerful telepath himself, does something very very similar, calming an entire planet's population, or basically Bambina's feat the other way round, during Thanos Imperative.

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However, Bambina's feat is much better than simply TP that can affect the Marvel earth, which is what Thanos scales from.

Bambina's feat would be better than the likes of Moondragon or Xavier for two reasons:

  • The Toriko planet itself is much much larger than Marvel earth.
  • The Marvel telepaths you brought up only affected the humans on the planet, while Bambina affected not just humans, but even all the animals and birds, many of which have impressive Intimidation/TP of their own.
  • Bambina's feat was performed incredibly casually, like he just showed his true form and got momentarily serious and the entire population of a large planet crapped themselves.

As I said, Intimidation is involuntary and passively emitted whenever top tiers fight seriously in the Toriko verse, and in the verse it scales directly with your overall power, where Midora is tiers above Bambina.

Meaning Midora is tiers above in TP above a character who effortlessly performed a large planetary feat that's already above anything or anyone Thanos scales from.

SO, my friend, with that, I will abandon my defensive stance on this issue, and instead ask you this:

Can Thanos withstand being in the presence of Midora, given the kind of passive TP feats the latter scales from?

Thanos scales above planetary telepaths, planetary in this case being Marvel earth. Midora also scales above planetary telepaths, except planetary in this case being a Neptune sized planet.

Hmm, who will win in that clash I wonder....

There's one last thing Midora can always do to neg Thanos' tp altogether.

He can simply stay out of range of Thanos' telepathy.

Yup, it's that simple. Although Thanos scales to people who have affected planets, he himself has never in his career shown that kind of range with his TP. He has only affected people who were right in front of him.

So in other words, all Midora needs to do is stay a fair distance away from Thanos and he is safe from Thanos' TP. Which he can easily do given the feats for Midora's jumping and general speed I have shown.

On the other hand, staying at say even a country wide distance from Thanos wouldn't harm Midora's chances at all, because I have shown Midora can extend his tongue large enough to cover a sizeable portion of the Toriko planet, and his Intimidation scales above Bambina's who showed large planet lvl range.

Meaning Midora can safely pound Thanos from range while staying untouchable to Thanos' own TP.

In conclusion:

  • Intimidation is a psionic attack with effects very similar to TP in the MU.
  • Bambina's feat is considerably above the telepaths Thanos scales from, for reasons discussed.
  • Unlike Thanos, who needs to voluntarily activate his TP and at least exert some effort to maintain it, Midora's Intimidation is an involuntary, passive psionic attack that would be activated whenever Midora's fighting seriously, requiring no extra effort from him. This is an important advantage that Intimidation has over TP.
  • Midora can always jump out of Thanos' TP range, making it completely useless.

On the Toriko planet

D

This is true but, be careful in comparing a world to a continent due to size as our earth would have a much larger volume and surface area when compared in size to a flat continent in Toriko earth

Well, a continent in the Toriko verse has greater surface area than our earth, so if that fodder Enbu master punched our earth, it would completely destroy our surface and do significant damage to the interior as well. And even the 8 Kings scale far above that level of strength, let alone Midora.

Honestly the difference in size compared to regular Earth will not matter that much considering that Thanos is way beyond a planet buster and has beyond star durability

Thanos has great energy durability sure, but his raw physical durability is nowhere near that good, but more on that soon.

Any energy in the Toriko-verse sure but Any energy in any verse, you will have a hard time proving that. That doesn't mean its like Vibranium at all, firstly it's a metal which will have different properties then a planets crust and secondly loads of materials absorb energy and are not as durable as metal, rubber for example is great at absorbing energy but you could break it apart pretty easily.

I didn't say its exactly Vibranium, just similar, as it can absorb energy.

The rubber example doesn't make sense because rubber can indeed take absurd amounts of blunt force trauma compared to any metal. That's entirely the point behind using rubber as shock absorbers in tons of applications.

Pound for Pound

This section will try to look at if Thanos' strength and physical durability is enough to let him survive a physical brawl with Midora.

First to get a few counters out of the way:

What? 'Would' destroy? You mean because of the size of the explosions relative to the size of Toriko earth are as large as some planets that he 'would have destroyed multiple planets' that is one huge presumption.

The explosions covered a degree of the surface, the size in this instance isn't all that relevant, there's no evidence to suggest that it would have destroyed a celestial objects mass completely, a surface explosion across the whole planet wouldnt have achieved this.

For comparison the mentor that caused the Dinosaurs extinction caused a whole planet wide surface explosion and yet we are here today.

You need to understand these surface wiping explosions are merely a side effect of these characters punching each other, never actually attacking the planet itself.

When they do attack the planet itself, it's been shown they are easily large planet level, again by characters much below Midora.

Nice, but these will not be anything significant to Thanos, he has survived much worse

The best physical durability feat you showed was Thanos taking a beatdown from PG, Mindless Thor.

Thor's like a moon-planet buster when going all out with Mjolnir, with those amps he would probably be approaching large planet lvl in striking.

But the thing is, Thanos wasn't no selling those hits, he was actually feeling, and getting bloodied by those blows from Thor.

Which means he will be taking damage from Midora's physical blows here as well. And unlike Thor, Midora consistently operates at a FTL-MFTL tier of speed, so he will be landing a lot more blows on Thanos while the latter won't be able to tag him at all.

This puts his strength at above planetary, stopping the force required to move a planet would ensure this but the fact that the engine can propel faster then light essentially means that he is capable of stopping a planet that goes at light speed

This isn't a bad feat but this is just lifting strength and says nothing about how hard Thanos can hit.

In any case a feat of this level has already been performed, again by characters much below Midora, namely Jirou, when he punched a Neo Spore (yeah those with the resistance of a large planet) into space.

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So in conclusion:

  • Thanos' physical durability can be easily overcome by Midora's attacks.
  • I don't see sufficient striking feats from Thanos to prove he can really damage Midora. Beating up Silver Surfer isn't enough when Surfer himself got one shotted by a Mjolnir throw from B&T Thor and Surfer struggles with physicals in general.
  • Midora's ridiculous combat speed means Thanos will getting hit by possibly millions of large planet lvl punches per second while Thanos won't be able to tag him back.
  • Advantages like Midora's extremely impressive regeneration makes a h2h brawl a stomp in Midora's favor if it ever comes to that.

Conclusion

Let's recap:

  1. Physicals: Midora trumps Thanos in every physical stat, especially the ludicrous speed gap makes a h2h brawl a stomp for Midora.
  2. Hax: I have proven that Thanos really has no answer for any of Midora's hax. Both Hungry Space and Minority World can potentially one shot as Thanos doesn't have a healing factor and both abilities have worked on Acacia, someone who has just as good durability feats, if not better, than Thanos, along with a highly potent healing factor, something that Thanos lacks. Gourmet World would make Midora virtually invincible to just about anything Thanos can do offensively. I mean if Gourmet Luck can bring an user inferior to Midora back from being atomized, I don't see what Thanos can do to put Midora down here. Lastly Midora has power copying and it's fairly fast and can be used on pretty complex abilities (Minority World for instance). Meaning much of Thanos' arsenal will get copied bare minutes into the fight, unless my opponent can show feats for Thanos resisting power copying.

I have discussed the telepathy issue in depth. I don't believe Thanos can TP Midora at all, in fact, if anything, it's Midora's Intimidation which can potentially cause a lot of problems for Thanos.

Energy blasts can be dealt with in a plethora of ways, including Minority World (redirecting the blasts back), Gourmet Luck (making them outright miss), much superior speed. Even if Midora gets hit, he can always regenerate back instantly.

Shields won't protect Thanos from Minority World, speaking of which, Thanos doesn't seem to have a counter for getting his bodily functions reversed, which would kill him instantly, unless he has atomic level control over his body or very potent regeneration, both of which he lacks.

In any case, Midora should be able to simply break the shields apart with a few physical blows at best, seeing as PG Champion, who is not even a planet buster, could do it.

That's it for now. You are up mate:)

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#164 Posted by shirso (4019 posts) - - Show Bio
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#165 Posted by Cull_Obsidian (3863 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Wow that looks like a great post, i didnt even see the notification, will start a counter soon :)

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#166 Posted by Cull_Obsidian (3863 posts) - - Show Bio
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#167 Posted by shirso (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@cull_obsidian: I will try to tag those who said TAEP but there are too many people lol

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#168 Posted by Cull_Obsidian (3863 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: i can tag some if you want?

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#169 Edited by shirso (4019 posts) - - Show Bio
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#170 Posted by MindingMuffin (350 posts) - - Show Bio

Derous Laser is a MFTL+ feat not 'at least FTL' lol, good posts anyway. T4V/TAEP.

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#171 Posted by Cull_Obsidian (3863 posts) - - Show Bio

@mindingmuffin: Same difference, if something is MFLT the it is of course at least FTL at the least

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#172 Posted by Cull_Obsidian (3863 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Loads of great bits to go over, still working on this, will enjoy this debate

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#173 Posted by shirso (4019 posts) - - Show Bio