CaV: Supreme (Sirfizzwhizz) vs Goku (Thedailybagel) OPEN FOR VOTES!

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sirfizzwhizz

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#1  Edited By sirfizzwhizz
No Caption Provided

Mean Supreme

No Caption Provided

Buu Saga Goku

Rules

  • Death or KO.
  • In character.
  • Battle over Toriko Gourmet World.
  • Random Encounter.
  • No gear for either side.
  • All Image Publish Comics for Supreme.
  • Manga and Anime Series for Goku.
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sirfizzwhizz

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thedailybagel

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#3 thedailybagel  Moderator

@thedailybagel How does it look?

Maybe mention that It's just up to ssj 3 but otherwise looks good.

Also, we including filler?

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sirfizzwhizz

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@sirfizzwhizz said:

@thedailybagel How does it look?

Maybe mention that It's just up to ssj 3 but otherwise looks good.

Also, we including filler?

As long I include Image crossovers? Well its just one Image crossover. Sure.

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thedailybagel

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#5 thedailybagel  Moderator

@thedailybagel said:
@sirfizzwhizz said:

@thedailybagel How does it look?

Maybe mention that It's just up to ssj 3 but otherwise looks good.

Also, we including filler?

As long I include Image crossovers? Well its just one Image crossover. Sure.

Sure, I'm not sure how fair it'll be with anime included but we'll see how the first posts go.

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DeusExMachlna

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Looks terrible I would pay to no read this!

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mr-yes

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TAEP & T4V

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emperorthanos-

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#8 emperorthanos-  Moderator

@thedailybagel: tag me for your posts. Curious to see you debate DB and what anime feats you will use.

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CloudtheMaker

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BalgoParks

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#10  Edited By BalgoParks

Thinking emoji. *Remembering two past DB CaV's that ended in a concession.*

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sirfizzwhizz

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#12  Edited By sirfizzwhizz
@balgoparks said:

Thinking emoji. *Remembering two past DB CaV's that ended in a concession.*

Meh not true. I finish a SSJ Goku vs S Class Yusuke debate before too. Way back. Good thing I chose Supreme this time. The stats of Superman and hax of Silver Surfer of Image comics. Stick around.

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BalgoParks

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@balgoparks said:

Thinking emoji. *Remembering two past DB CaV's that ended in a concession.*

Meh not true. I finish a SSJ Goku vs S Class Yusuke debate before too. Way back. Good thing I chose Supreme this time. The stats of Superman and hax of Silver Surfer of Image comics. Stick around.

I meant my previous ones, kekw.
Curious how you'll handle Buu Saga, since this is massive jump from what I used

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KreigAstartis

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sirfizzwhizz

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@sirfizzwhizz said:
@balgoparks said:

Thinking emoji. *Remembering two past DB CaV's that ended in a concession.*

Meh not true. I finish a SSJ Goku vs S Class Yusuke debate before too. Way back. Good thing I chose Supreme this time. The stats of Superman and hax of Silver Surfer of Image comics. Stick around.

I meant my previous ones, kekw.

Curious how you'll handle Buu Saga, since this is massive jump from what I used

TBF I would debate Invincible now vs anything up to Frieza Saga. Given the mass amount of proof of power, WoG, scaling, ect. Back then I did not have nearly half that stuff. Supreme though, we talking nonsensical Silver Age Superman here pretty much. Only I wont wank him that high unless need too.

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pansito

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#16  Edited By pansito

is this the supreme with the multiple universal plus tier feats or another version?

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Alphamon

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sirfizzwhizz

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@pansito said:

is this the supreme with the multiple universal plus tier feats or another version?

Yes, but then they are outliers. I really dont plan to use those.

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Chimeroid

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TAG

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Konohana

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TAEP, please.

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stormshadow_x

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Tag

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RockSalt

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@sirfizzwhizz:

Pardon, but is there a user post count or certain amount of site experience required to participate in this CAV's voting and/or viewing process? I'm kinda fresh here.

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emperorthanos-

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#24 emperorthanos-  Moderator

@rocksalt: there isn't normally. Unless those involved in the debate decide to have one.

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RockSalt

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@emperorthanos-: Kool beans. Seems very democratic & reasonable.

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RockSalt

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Tag me for votes, too.

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ProfessorRespect

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@rocksalt said:

@emperorthanos-: Kool beans. Seems very democratic & reasonable.

It's neither

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DeathHero61

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PooPooEater

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#29  Edited By PooPooEater

taep, taep, taep.

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sirfizzwhizz

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@thedailybagel: Im working on a opener, once you post yours first, I will have one ready right behind. Im feeling the hype lol.

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thedailybagel

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#31 thedailybagel  Moderator
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sirfizzwhizz

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@thedailybagel: ok. I just finish my Doom Slayer Hellboy CaV. Only me and Owie have debate right now. I got plenty of free time.

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TheQuestion01

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takenstew22

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#34  Edited By takenstew22  Moderator

I never knew TDB was knowledgeable on DB.

Not TAEP'ing, just thought it was interesting.

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Mooty_Pass

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thedailybagel

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#37 thedailybagel  Moderator
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#39 thedailybagel  Moderator

@sirfizzwhizz:

Son-Goku

No Caption Provided

Introduction

I think Goku is a pretty recognizable character, enough that most people who take part in these forums should have at least a basic understanding of who he is... So I won't waste time going into detail about his background. The relevant details for this matchup are as so:

  • He's a Saiyan with the ability to transform into increasingly more powerful forms
  • His powerset (mostly fueled by "Ki") consists of enhanced physicals, senses, energy attacks, elite fighting skills, teleportation and more. I'll elaborate on this throughout the debate.
  • He packs more than enough power in every relevant area that he can beat the daylights out of Supreme without breaking a sweat ;)

For the voters, I have access to Goku's Manga, Anime (including filler) and Movie showings up to the Buu saga in this debate. I don't think I'll need everything they have to offer but it's worth noting in case anyone wonders why separate mediums are being brought up. Goku obviously gets allot more powerful throughout Dragon Ball, so anything he does early on with strain can be replicated effortlessly by the time of the next arc, let alone the series. This difference is even more dramatic with his Super Saiyan forms.

With that said, I think a brief preface is in order with regards to the inevitable "scaling" that tends to cause some controversy around DB threads.

Ki and scaling

Almost everything in Dragon Ball is powered by something called "Ki" or "chi". It's life energy that is present in pretty much everything, and can be utilized in various ways by harnessing it as explained by Gohan in DBZ #234:

Goes without saying scans are going to be reversed
Goes without saying scans are going to be reversed

It's a pretty simple system where 99% of the time more Ki = better in all relevant areas, early DBZ showed this in actual numbers by using scouters, which depicted a characters power level based on how much Ki they possessed:

DBZ #1
DBZ #1

Scouters were rendered obsolete for a few reasons, but the gist is that in theory feats done by guys weaker than Goku should be able to be replicated by him. There's obviously problems with this kind of approach, so in this debate I'm going to try and keep that kind of scaling to a minimum and stick to clear feats or 1 to 1 scaling with Goku and his opponents.

With verses like DB there's always going to be debates with regards to the legitimacy of the scaling, so if/when I use it I'm always going to justify it with additional reasoning as to why it's relevant for Goku. With that out of the way, my first post is going to give a rough overview of what Goku can do and the advantages I think he holds here...

Side note: - I'm gonna be referencing scans and episodes separated into DB and DBZ chapters as that's the way I've read them.

Float like a butterfly

Actual footage of Supreme trying to land a punch
Actual footage of Supreme trying to land a punch

Inspired by Muhammed Ali's famous quote, the first advantage that should allow Goku to dominate this fight is his combination of speed, battle smarts, and unorthodox techniques that I don't think Supreme has encountered before. To break them down:

Speed

Goku is definitely allot slower in raw travel speed, but that isn't relevant to a fight. In combat things are very different, especially since Supreme isn't the kinda guy to abuse his speed anyway. Goku constantly improves throughout Dragon Ball to a ridiculous extent, but back when he was a kid he was already fast enough to dodge lightning...

No Caption Provided

DBZ episode #127

By the time of Z, he could blitz and embarrass guys like Nappa in H2H:

DBZ #31

Nappa was so fast that the only Z fighter who could see his initial blitz was Piccolo, and that includes guys like Krillin who was able to have entire fights in milliseconds back when he was a kid. However, what makes blitzing him really impressive is that Nappa was able to react to a Ki blast from Piccolo at close range:

DBZ #24
DBZ #24

Just a few chapters earlier, Piccolo's Ki blasts were fast enough to reach the Moon pretty much instantaneously. In the Anime this is portrayed in the exact same way:

No Caption Provided

So we have a pretty objective piece of evidence for how fast Piccolo's energy blasts can move (easy relativistic+) and Nappa dodged it, from roughly a foot away... Yet got utterly blitzed and humiliated by a Saiyan saga Goku to the point he couldn't even see him move. I think that's enough to place Goku well into the relativistic range... During the saiyan saga.

I also think it's worth mentioning that unlike most western comic powerhouses, Goku abuses his speed advantage when it's there and I have plenty to support that stance. There's plenty more for speed, but this should be a decent showcase for an opener.

Skill and Techniques

To put it bluntly, Goku should blow Supreme out of the water when it comes to Battle IQ and skills. Even as a child he was a prodigy; being able to copy techniques (like the Kamehameha) that are supposed to take 50 years to master just by looking at them. Skills he learnt from his trainers back then are still applied in his adult years, such as being able to tell where someone is based on feeling air currents...

DBZ #256
DBZ #256

This is a skill he learnt from his time with Kami and Mr Popo back in OG Dragon Ball. I'm quite confident in claiming that Goku's raw fighting skills are going to come in handy here because Supreme is essentially a brick in CQC - he's never really fought anyone that can parry and slip his punches like Goku can...

DBZ Episode 177
DBZ Episode 177

Here you can see Goku brushing aside almost all of Cell's attacks in a manner where they don't really land clean. He's doing that then dropping down into a leg sweep, which causes Cell's momentum to fling itself directly towards Goku's own counter haymaker... I've never seen Supreme deal with a guy that can do shit like that. There's obviously allot when it comes to this kind of thing, but we'll get to that later.

He's also packing a decent amount of versatility in his techniques that can no doubt catch Supreme off guard, some of which include:

Goku factors these things into his overall fighting style. For instance, even as a kid he's used after images to get the drop on Roshi (this was also the first time he saw/copied the technique) and still uses it years later on guys like Cell:

DBZ episode #178
DBZ episode #178

Basically, he's versatile and regularly uses these abilities in conjunction with his skill to create openings, escape attacks and land his biggest shots. I'm not going to go into much detail yet as I want keep some cards close to my chest, I see this side of things as being needed in a close match to tip the balance, and I'm not convinced this is that close yet. I'm sure you'll try to prove me wrong though ;)

Sting like a bee

No Caption Provided

As evidenced by the section title, Goku's second and more important advantage is pretty simple: He's way more powerful than Supreme and can devastate him with one of his stronger attacks... All whilst being way too durable to be put down himself.

Offense

To kick things off, Goku could break Nappas spine in one hit when using Kaioken:

DBZ #32

This is the same guy who tanked an attack (DBZ #28) from a rage amped Kid Gohan and took minimal damage. For reference, a much weaker Gohan in the same rage amped state was able to oneshot Saiyan space pods, and those things could no sell blasts as big as a small moon.

DBZ #9 and #19

However, Supreme's a big boy, so let's get to the big boy stuff... There's the popular scans of both Piccolo and Roshi blowing up the moon very early in DB and the scaling attached to that - but I'd rather emphasize Goku's beam clash with Vegeta in the Saiyan saga as a more clear cut and impressive example. Vegeta at the time was irrefutably a casual planet buster: He blew up a planet and it's moon with a simple ki blast and was mentioned as surpassing his dad back when he was a child, who was also a casual planet buster as depicted in DBZ episode #86.

Loading Video...

To be honest, I don't like the argument that "character X blew up a planet here, so that must mean every thing he does to character Y must also be planet busting". However, I mentioned earlier that Ki is relevant to everything in DB. It can be raised, lowered, and even focused, increasing particular attributes like attack or defense. Special techniques take this one step further by focusing all of a users Ki into one point, therefore increasing the attacks output above what is normally possible:

DBZ #7
DBZ #7

So the whole point of the Galick gun is to be more powerful than anything a regular Ki blast can do. So with that in mind, I'm confident in claiming that Vegeta's Galick Gun was superior to the planetary level blasts demonstrated prior by himself and his Father... This is all relevant, because Goku managed to match and overpower it with his own Kamehameha, in a form vastly inferior to even his base levels during the Buu saga.

Loading Video...

More impressively Vegeta proceeded to take the Kamehameha head on and survive, albeit injured.

No Caption Provided

We can gauge allot from this. Firstly, one of Goku's primary attacks was proven to be more powerful than another planet busting++ beam, and secondly his physical peer (a guy he was hurting with his punches and kicks)

No Caption Provided

tanked said blast head on. You can ascertain the level Goku and Vegeta were operating at during their fight with that... They're both planet busters and can tank planetary attacks, yet were still capable of harming each other. Goku's Kamehameha has allot of ridiculous feats, so I'll finish this section with him using it to overpower the gravity at the center of a star and propel himself outside of the solar system at MFTL speeds.

DBZ episode #50
DBZ episode #50

This is honestly scratching the surface with what Goku can do but I think it's enough for a warm up. Goku has impressive offensive capabilities and regularly tussles with people that operate on and above his own level.

Durability

Defensively is much the same as the offensive side, so I'm going to keep it simple here before seeing what you bring in your own opener. Outside of his fight with Vegeta, Goku has allot of good durability showings. For example, on his way to Namek he spent a good portion of his time just blasting himself with his own Kamehameha, to the point that he could completely shrug it off. I think I've concretely established that his Kamehameha is a planet busting hit if he wants it to be:

No Caption Provided
DBZ episode 60
DBZ episode 60

Two things to point out with this one:

  1. Goku was deliberately pushing his limits and fired the Kamehameha when he was using Kaio-Ken
  2. He was actually risking his life when doing this earlier, so it stands to reason that he wasn't holding back:
DBZ #76

Another notable example was his impact from landing into Namek after avoiding being caught in Frieza's Ki blast. The initial explosion took up a notable portion of the planet as evidenced by the curvature, and created a ball of energy the size of a small moon:

DBZ episode #88
DBZ episode #88

It's important to note here that Frieza's attack didn't cause that explosion - It was the result of Goku slamming into Namek with such force, which obviously doubles as a testament to his durability against blunt force attacks. Goku is also coming packed with a few defensive techniques that extend his defenses above his raw durability and help him avoid taking damage. There's obviously allot more for durability as well, but I want to keep this post relatively short so I'll keep the rest in my pocket for now.

Early thoughts

To be honest this post doesn't really get across the depth of Goku's abilities, but I think I've set a decent baseline for what Goku can do, and will emphasize allot more as we get into the debate. Obviously this is just an opener, so it'd be unfair for me to draw conclusions without letting you get a word in. However I have a decent knowledge of Supreme and I'm pretty confident in two things:

  • Goku holds a considerable edge in raw power. I deliberately used feats of that nature from Goku in his base form, and to be honest I think they're enough to give Supreme a decent fight already. His Super Saiyan forms leapfrog his power well above what I've shown, and the feats obviously improve along with that. Like allot.
  • Secondly, Goku should just be an incredibly awkward person for Supreme to deal with. The gap in pure H2H skill is flat out bonkers, which in conjunction with Goku's overall awareness and versatility should make him an incredibly poor stylistic matchup for Supreme - a guy who's fighting style basically consists of bullrushes and haymakers.

I'm sure you'll have allot to say about this which I'm looking forward to, best of luck in your opener.

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thedailybagel

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PooPooEater

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sweet

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Alphamon

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Nice

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Taep

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deactivated-6664a33a71ba8

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Taep. Need to be here to witness universal Supreme in all his glory

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sirfizzwhizz

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@cav_tighten: I haven't read Daily post yet but if he doesn't wank Universal Goku then I am not going to for Universal Supreme.

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sirfizzwhizz

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#46  Edited By sirfizzwhizz

@thedailybagel:

No Caption Provided

Supreme Scaling and Feats Being Used

I need to touch on this first as the character is Mean Supreme. Mean Supreme is Liefeld writers version of Supreme who was "revised' to be replace by the new Moore writer Supreme. Then at the end of the comic line Erik Larsen replaces Moore Supreme with liefeld Supreme, now called Mean Supreme. The Supremacy is where all Supremes made or imagined by writers are stored when their comic undergoes a "Reboot", a "Retcon", or as they call it in lore a "Revision" The Supremes are 4th wall breaking in that way. They don't fully understand they are comics, but have a notion of that possibility.

Supreme #41

As stated when Supreme comics reboot, or Revision as the event is called in lore, the past version(s) Supremes cannot be killed but exist in Supremacy. They don't die or cease to exist even when the writer (ALL POWERFUL GOD) retcons the universe and re sets it.

Supreme Blue Rose #4

Stated in Supreme lore that universes spacetime is changed at points in history called Revisions. When this happens the supreme before that Revision is not changed or cease to exist as with everything else, but survive restart of space time and universal changes. Existing outside spacetime at that point.

Supreme #64

Stated and shown that the last Supreme before Moore Supreme, which is for a fact Liefeld Supreme, survive his revision event that made Moore Supreme, and had to be kept under guard by the other Supremes after being rename as Mean Supreme. This is important as Mean Supreme is stated the strongest Supreme and a lot of Moore Supreme and his sister Suprema feats will be used as the inferior and weaker version for scaling.

Im also per this match allowed feats of Marvel Gladiator battle with Liefeld Supreme. All Image comics are canon in Image with Image crossovers, but those will be used as well. Just as Anime Goku, Movies Goku, and Manga Goku of different canons combined here.

What is a Supreme?

Supreme is a Superman knock off, of incredible power. In their lore and place of Image comics, they are meant to represent the top tier of power houses, next to higher levels of Spawn of all things, as top Image dogs. All Supreme are destined to be the best by their creators, aka the writers and God, which the Supremes are aware of. In Lore Supremes are the Lychpins of the universe itself.

No Caption Provided

Supreme #37

Stated when time and space was coming apart only Supreme and incarnations of Supreme can fix it by their very nature.

No Caption Provided

Supreme Blue Rose #1

Its also stated without a Supreme in the universe the Supreme universes and time itself will die. They are that pivotal to the Supreme story and universe by their. However, what empowers a supreme, what makes them what they are? Supremium.

Supremium, or as it was initially called in early comics as Radium, is what gives Supreme characters their powers. In the original Liefeld run there was no Supremium but the same powers of it were there. Its a energy/matter that defies physics and alter reality and molecules. In the original run Radium imbued with Supreme Powers was the Supremium.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Supreme #2 Supreme #12

Radium infused with Supreme's power both shows, and explains the source of Mean Supreme's invulnerability. Supreme's power is to alter the body to match the threat. In essence to adapt. Twice stated he simply changes his biology to face any threat to him. This is again proven here.

No Caption Provided

Supreme #1

Liefeld Supreme power derives from his molecular control of his body. Able to change his body to become the strongest being as needed. This leads to his many Hax powers and super healing. So with this in mind lets get to some Hax abilities.

No Caption Provided

Supreme Returns #52

Supremium is stated to alter reality and become a god.

No Caption Provided

Supreme #45

Supremium stated to alter reality as it core nature.

No Caption Provided

Supreme #52

Stated again Supremium ignore laws of physics to make impossible possible.

No Caption Provided

Supreme #52

A foe is using Supremium to match Supreme, and states all space and time and its mass summing up the power within himself. Again Supreme being the lynchpin of the universe and time for a reason. I'm not going to say Supreme is universal here, as that is wanking the material. You can wank that, there is tons of evidence for it, and some actual outlier feats of it. I won't use it as I feel Supreme and DBZ Goku are pretty even match in power, however the KEY for Supreme victory is hax. He has the stats, but WAAAAAAAY better hax. Lets get to this now.

Strength

Covering strength first for valid reasons. Strength of both characters are similar, and vastly different. I just don't see Goku having same strength feats in punches, slams, and bullrushes. I know you started soft with planet level blows by scaling the durability to planetary energy attacks of weaker Namek Saga, and that far inferior to Buu Saga. However I can play this scaling game too of how strong Supreme is as he injures people of similar durability, and Supreme durability is off the charts insane. Planet busting and level attacks is child's play to Supreme. for example you showed Goku tanking a moon level energy attack on Namek surface. Far weaker version of DBZ Goku. Yeah well Supreme was doing this stuff casually with same results with his raw strength.

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Supreme vs Gladiator #1

Supreme smashes Marvel's Gladiator so hard into the planet with one hand, that the explosive force is seen from space. Same moon level size energy blast from the slam visible from Space, and liefeld was holding back, just warning Gladiator. Should also be known Gladiator is casual planet level in Marvel comics, and this attack had Gladiator Shiar escort, who know Gladiator limits, suggest that Glads is over his head with just this attack.

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Supreme vs Gladiator #1

Marvel's Gladiator states Supreme fight with himself would destroy multiple worlds before a winner be decided. world busting is super casual. Even the far inferior Moore supreme had casual planet level feats of strength.

Supreme Returns #1

Supreme slams Shadow Supreme, who is weaker than Moore Supreme, to the Earth's Core with zero issues. Here the swirling mass and thousands of miles of magma and liquid nickel combine with earth's strongest center of gravity will hold Shadow Supreme for a short distraction. As stated by the dog Radar, Shadow Supreme is not equals with Supreme at all, and Radar actually injures and main the being to prove it. This is funny as Goku in Dragon Ball Super >>>>>>>>> DBZ goku in stats and power, still be threatens by a attack like this that Moore Supreme and weaker Shadow Supreme laughs off.

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I suppose some call this low showings, or wave it away as the super IQ genius Goku as you propose being dumb about his own abilities, but the fact is this happen and its canon facts. I using it. I'm not saying Goku is less than planet level, but his durability is wonky. As is his strength. I posted this which pisses people off.

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DBZ anime. :35 second mark."Two tons a piece" impresses south Kai. "10 tons a piece I wont be able to move." Goku's own words. Manga translations I found state Buu ark Goku could not really deal with stated 40 tons in base and had to go Super Saiyan to deal with it. So yes, Dragon Ball Z has wonky feats of lifting strength to striking strength, and durability to what they can and cannot tank as well. Its weird, or worse... inconsistent. something Supreme does not suffer from really. Now why does lifting strength matter? It matters a lot. What is Goku going to do when Supreme decided to grapple or grab onto goku and start ragdolling him? It's a part of combat and yes lifting strength does matter, as seen when Supreme grabs and ragdolls gladiator in theri fight. Even more so when Supreme at the end of the comic series does this to characters.

Supreme #64

Liefeld Supreme smashes the villain Khromium through the planet, busting out the back side of the planet, and into the sun. He does this with ZERO EFFORT and its way more impressive than ANY striking feat or strength feat on Goku's part through DBZ era. It does not cap off there either.

Supreme Annual #46

Moore Supreme, the inferior weaker one, states and shown able to causally bust planetoids as long as he is close to Light Speed. With super ease smashing planetoids into pieces. What's really key here is it also states stars can be busted too at these speeds. Stated flat out next panel that at lightspeed your mass is infinite and no need to avoid anything, you just go through them, and shown to bust a planetoid from previous panel. The inferior Moore upreme can bust planets with effort, and even stars, Yet Mean Supreme is so much stronger and superior. I have more feats in this area, way more, but I will save them next post as Supreme is way above planet level, and more star level which is where I cap DBZ Goku in power anyway. We will discuss this area more later.

Supreme is physically superior and does not rely on vague and imprecise linear scaling. Planet busting is nothing to Mean Supreme, nothing, zero effort, and can smash stars. His striking is equals and his liftingin is far superior for grappling and ragdolling attacks.

Durability

Another area Supreme is just way better overall. He has the physical durability to tank something Goku never has. we know by the above how casual in planet busting Supreme is which does ZERO DAMAGE to him, so what about something more? Can Goku survive Absolute Zero temperatures?

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Supreme #52

Suprema survive the absolute zero temperatures that freezes even stars solid. Thats cold beyond cold, even Absolute Zero can't do that. Can goku tank flying around a core of a star? where Gravitational forces reach 30+ Gs on the sun surface and waaaay higher deeper you go into the sun. We know how much Gs mean in DB regardless of planet busting power levels. As well in the sun is Radiation, Nuclear Fission, Explosive Forces, and more. How does liefeld Supreme deal with sitting in a star?

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Supreme #51

The heart of a Supernova is stated possibly to much for Moore Supreme alone. Taking damage in the heart of a Supernova. However, again Moore Supreme is far inferior to Mean Supreme.

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Supreme Annual #1

Mean Supreme states immune to Stars all together, and worse than Stars. Thats Blackholes and Supernovas. Oh wait, we have those feats TOO!!!!!

Supreme #5

Khrom states and shows he has the ability to blast to the center of the planets and destroy them via a ship in space that harness the power source equivalent of Supreme himself. Khrom hits Supreme with this same blast to no real effect on Supreme.

Supreme Annual #46

Moore Supreme and his weaker sister Suprema shows the ability to fly past the Event Horizon of a Blackhole and back out undamaged. not some "Mini" Blackhole either, but a genuine "Solar Mass" Blackhole with a special planet hidden in it. This planet and Blackhole being a aspect of Gorr the Living Galaxy!!! The gravity field as stated is legit, capturing light, and able to smash planets and stars if not for Gorr special made super planet. Even after being spaghettified, by the insane tidal forces, the Supremes all fly out its gravitational pull. Can I see Goku tanking this? Supreme can.

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Super Healing!!!! Yes this character has Wolverine level healing factor, better actually as he not only heals but adapts to whatever is injuring him as the fight goes on.

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Supreme Annual #47

The inferior in all ways Moore Supreme is stated to heal his broken bones and damage organs, injuries suffered when he had no powers at he time, in a few minutes. That's insane good and this version is far inferior as he cannot adapt to attack, just heal. Mean Supreme is more serious with super healing.

Supreme #4

Supreme tanks a being using molecular level cutting attacks and after couple hits starts adapting to it, thus resisting it.

Supreme #4

Supreme changing his body to adapt to the dimensional phase shifter that cycles through 16 stated dimensions ata time, that was tearing him apart. So instead being ripped apart across different dimensions, Supreme is instant healed and adapts to that dimensional layer with his powers. That is insane!!!!

So now Goku sees one huge difference, he is facing a black hole durable character who tanks heart of supernovas better than Moore Supreme can. Add in the super healing, and how Mean Supreme can likely adapt to a degree to Ki attacks and lessen the damage, build a resistance to it the longer the fight drags out. Meanwhile Goku tanks damage, he is screwed.

Speed

Lets talk about speed now, since goku is suppose faster than light. i mean Piccolo moon beam is faster than light, and Saiyan Arc Goku is faster than Piccolo Moon beam, but then Namek Saga is faster than Saiyan Arc, and Cell Arc should be faster than Namek Ark, and Buu Ark should be REALLY faster than Cell Saga!!!!! I mean the speed is clear?!?!

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You said this yourself.

Goku is definitely allot slower in raw travel speed, but that isn't relevant to a fight. In combat things are very different, especially since Supreme isn't the kinda guy to abuse his speed anyway.

So wait you stated better ki means better stats and speed? so how is lifting strength is less than striking? How is travel speed inferior to combat speed? Why is these things not equally increase across the board? Why was lower in power level Burter faster than Captain Ginyu?

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This is where I point to you, and all the DB fans who will likely spite vote me regardless pointing out these facts, that power levels and such do not auto mean speed increase. Some with lower levels are faster by nature and design or physics.

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Trunks was vastly more powerful when he "bulk up" in Super Saiyan form after time chamber training, a new form between SSJ and SSJ2, yet was slower than Perfect Cell who had a weaker power level. Cell stated he had too much muscles in that form though Trunks was more powerful in levels. Imagine that how having higher level does not equate to all stats.

My point is I need freaking proof how fast Goku is. Not this game of scaling to this to that to this to that and presto we have super silly hyper speed! I want realistic provable numbers. Is Goku really that much faster by Buu arc? is he 100x speed of light or 2x? Meanwhile for upreme we have more solid proof of speeds in combat and reaction.

Supreme Annual #46

The Weaker in every way Moore Supreme states the various effects and reaction times of near lightspeed, lightspeed, and faster than lightspeed. This is important as anything at lightspeed seems to stand frozen in time, and anything faster than lightspeed has time displacement reaction where the past and future kinda merge for reaction times!

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Supreme Annual #1

Supreme is able to traverse the stated whole universe in days. looking for one planet over the rest showing reaction time in that level. Can't find a planet at million times speed of light if no reaction time exist now can it? Makes sense since times stand still at those speeds and time reverses in as well propels ahead seeing past and future at the same time.

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Supreme #52

Weaker Supremes of Supremacy like Mouse supreme here are shown to have stated Nanosecond reaction times. How fast is nanosecond reaction times? Light travels approximately 1 foot per nanosecond. 2x speed of light 2 feet per nanosecond. 3x equals 3 feet. So on and so forth. Goku is not hitting multiple speed of light and the weakest of supremes have speed to perceive Goku combat moves.

Inspired by Muhammed Ali's famous quote, the first advantage that should allow Goku to dominate this fight is his combination of speed, battle smarts, and unorthodox techniques that I don't think Supreme has encountered before.

This comment is incorrect sir, as not only Moore and Liefeld Supreme face Speedsters who ALWAYS use their light speed abilities, but conquers them every time with superior speed.

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Supreme Returns #1

The inferior as hell Moore Supreme tags a villain who runs as fast as electricity, and travels through tv and radio devices. A villain too fast for Suprema actually to accurately tag, moving at casual lightspeed as his base speed. Supreme deal with him fine and tags wim with a lightspeed attack easy.

Supreme Returns #3

In the world of Amylinth everything is light and moves lightspeed. in which Moore Supreme is comfortable if operating at and fighting foes made of light at stated lightspeeds.

Supreme Returns #1

As stated Optilux is a nigh omnipotent level foe made of pure Photons and uses light base attacks to turn others into light. Suprema is able to dance around his photon base attacks. No issues.

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Supreme Annual #1

Liefeld Supreme states himself as FASTER THAN LIGHT in a fight against a foe who moves at lightspeed. Imagine that fighting lightspeed foes and dancing around them or easily tagging them. Stated Faster than light in combat. With reaction times to see past and future events at speeds faster than light. Hot damn.....

Supreme clearly has the proven better reaction and travel speeds, as well vague faster than light combat speed that you remote for Goku. There is no provable advantage for Goku here. Best you can do is maybe scale off Broly and Kid Buu who seem to travel across undefine in size galaxies snuffing stars? That is still not close to traveling from universe edge to universe edge in days.

Hax, oh my the hax in this fight.....

Lets get to the best part of this debate. Supreme is simply TOO HAX for Goku simple ki abilities. Solar Flare? Oooohhhh ahahhhhh. telepathy? Supreme has this too and better ability. Instant Transmission? Yeah Supreme has that as well and time travel to change fight outcomes. I'm getting ahead myself, for now i will touch on the key hax for this fight.

Energy Attacks

Since Goku is using ki blasts as his main form of attack, Supreme can too. while his may be slightly weaker in attack power, it has one benefit, it burns as hot as stars.

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Supreme Annual #48

Stare Supreme used by Moore Supreme and beta Vision use by Liefeld Supreme are both stated to be hot as Plasma and the Sun in temperatures. We all know how much Goku loves temperatures of a star.

Supreme Annual #1

Supreme uses Beta Vision to vaporize this "world unto itself" mining station into dust. A ship whose scale is shown practically dwarfs planet in size while it harvest other worlds. One shot and its gone, so the Beta Vision is not weak at all.

The key issue is the massive heat and not the raw power though some raw power is there. Makes sense since this attack is suppose to be as powerful as Supremes own super casual planet busting strength.

Telepathy and Cosmic Awareness

Here is a MAjor issue that you cannot argue around, no matter what crap argument of Goku skill and genius IQ. Supreme has cosmic awareness and better telepathy. He will know as soon the match starts the strengths and weakness of goku and his core powers. Facts.

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Supreme Annual #46

Moore Supreme states he has no real super sense called Telescopic Sight, Micro-Sight, Hyper-Hearing, and Supreme Scent. All these powers all stem from the same power that he simply can expand his consciousness and senses far beyond himself. Stated as fact as "I See. I Hear. I Know." That's how these powers work. Mean Supreme has shown the same power.

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Supreme #2

Mean Supreme in the very first comic is able to sense and see every major Image hero and villain, even uber powerful ones like Malbogia, Hellspont, Spawn, ect that are on earth or a affecting the earth somewhere in the universe. Gives Supreme the total download of current events of story plotlines, and who has done what. He just focus his mind, and he knows all these characters and what they are about!

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Supreme vs Gladiator #1

In the Marvel crossover Supreme shows the ability again to tap into Gladiator's mind. Instantly in mid battle learning Gladiator's source of powers.

Goku skill and IQ means shit here. as Supreme will have perfect understanding of Goku abilities, powers, nature, ect. Its like fighting a battle with near perfect knowledge. Something Goku is lacking and a severe detriment to his ability to effectively fight. know what else Goku cant do? Breath in space, look like Supreme knows this now and force goku into space for a easy win!!!

After Images and Solar Flares

You state this will help goku in a fight, not really. Supreme makes after images too.

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Supreme #49

Supreme using super speed to spin and using his Supreme Stare to blast multiple foes at one time. I also don't see how after images will work with Supreme cosmic sense. Especially with eyesight.

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Supreme Annual #41 Supreme #3

Moore Supreme is able to stare at the very molecules of any matter. seeing how reality has change and fluctuates from the last Revision to his universe. Mean Supremes Beta Vision being used to look at powers and molecules of a super advanced alien warrior, and his weapons. Using the vision to spot the weakness in them to exploit. Solar Flares won't work either.

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Supreme #46

The weakest of Supremes like Suprema can stare into the brightest known stars in the universe with no ill effects. Super White Giant Stars, which are stated to have the highest brilliance of any star in the universe. Stated the largest and most powerful energy wise star in the universe, the kind that go supernova or blackhole when they die and lose energy. Solar Flare is not doing crap.

So Supreme can make after images himself, and has the Cosmic Awareness to see through any after images with ease. Add in telepathy feats as well After images are not tricking Supreme the slightest bit. This equally applies to Solar flare, as you are not blinding a character who can stare into the brightest stars in the universe like White Super Stars and be fine visually.

Instant Transmission

Useful ability for sure, teleport attacks and what not, yet Supreme can do this too anyway and do it better.

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Supreme #39

Liefeld Supreme when weaken and nearly defeated by powerful foes was stated able to time travel to the future to escape, and then time travel back as needed to change the time line and win. This is soooo much more useful than Instant Transmission. By a lot. Unlike Loki who intercept the time travel Supreme when he tried to return, Goku has no such counter to this.

So Supreme can time travel and return in top shape, just restart the battle as needed. It happen.

Conclusions

In the end let's bring out the best feats, I'm not holding back and my next post will be alot lighter in material, As I really just went heavy with this one. Supreme has less than 100 comic issues to pull feats from, so I'm going to show with opener how superior Supreme is. Any ability Goku has is countered by better ones on Supreme's end, and I still have not touch all Supremes hax abilities for this fight. I welcome the rebuttals and better feats i expect to see next round and I will in turn make rebuttals. Good luck my friend.

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Hm. Pretty good actually

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