KAL-EL: LAST SON OF KRYPTON AND BANE OF THE HOUSE OF ODIN
INTRODUCTION
Superman needs no introduction so naturally I shall be copy-pasting providing one
Superman (AKA Clark Kent or Kal-El) is a powerful alien from the long dead planet of Krypton. Born to the brilliant scientist Jor-El and the military tactician, Lara Lor-Van, Kal-El was sent to the Planet Earth to be saved from his planet's imminent destruction. He grew up with his adopted parents, Johnathan and Martha Kent, in Smallville, Kansas where he eventually learned how to control his powers.
Eventually Clark moved to Metropolis, where he started off his early years overthrowing mobs with his journalism and fighting off thugs as Superman. Eventually, Metropolis was attacked by Brainiac, where he eventually became recognized as the powerful savior of the city that he is. After helping to fight off Darkseid's armies, he is known as one of the big founding members of the Justice League and continues to fight to save lives to this day.
Pictured here with his dog after an encounter with some crazy old man who came lunging at him screaming "my sons are deeead"
POWERS
SUPER STRENGTH
A)LIFTING/PUSHING
Superman is very strong, more so than just about any other class 100
Why this is more impressive than it looks- He had a single drop of sweat to show for it , speculated to be only because he was away from the sun,his power source for days. So basically he can move around the earth like a barbell, when not even at peak condition, near effortlessly.
Why this is more impressive than it looks- Well it....isn't. At least compared to the other two, Warworld was still big enough to disrupt the earth's surface just due to it's size (and obviously gravity), which makes sense given it was roughly the size of the moon, but nearer. This is just further proof of Superman treating earth sized and smaller objects like it's no biggie
Why this is more impressive than it looks- Not even slowing down through the mass of the moon, when facing someone noted to be stronger than him. Heh, again not quite as impressive but helps support his strength level
B) STRIKING POWER
Superman's striking power is at least as good, and arguably better than Thor with Mjolnir
Why this is more impressive than it looks- The punches could be felt from the core of the earth to space.....when not even directly striking the planet. This easily matches Thor's best efforts
Why this is more impressive than it looks- Catches him, then takes him to Venus, miscellaneous speed feats while fighting , doing all this while weakened by Doomsday's death mist (more on that later)
SUMMARY- Superman's strength operates on a scale where earth sized planetary bodies are literally no sweat to him, even under less than peak conditions , thus blowing past 90% of all class 100s, including Thor and his physically weaker brother
SUPER DURABILITY
Superman can take the duo's best shots and keep ticking
Why this is more impressive than it looks- Magog even without his spear in the wonderstar form , thrashed Major Disaster and amped Atomic Skull , who were giving Superman and Diana trouble via distractions and splitting up strategy
And a bunch of other super powers- super hearing, super vision, super stamina yada yada that are mostly irrelevant, not because they can't hurt Thor and Loki but because the next power, along with super strength , is the only one that really matters here
SUPERSPEED
Superman is so much faster than Thor and Loki they are literal statues to him
Why this is more impressive than it looks- Quantified as ten years of medical training in 5 minutes . Superman can live out literal years in human minutes. 5 years ago Superman
Why this is more impressive than it looks- First proof they were near Pluto. Second even accounting for most of that being travel speed, how the heck did he find them so quickly?
Why this is more impressive than it looks- I'd like to bring your attention to the fact that a normal human can't survive more than 10 seconds vs Doomsday, so since the kid is not fried there......Superman basically found DD in less than that time and still had time to think for another 1/50th of a second
Why this is more impressive than it looks- Bizarro moon was same size as a normal moon
SUMMARY- Neither Thor nor Loki can react in any state and form to a Superman that will be living literal years in their seconds and to whom they will be statues like Fox Quicksliver using superspeed, except Superman's obviously much much faster. Thus, being strong enough to kill hurt them, Superman will take out both before they even realize the fight has begun
STRATEGY
Superman attacks first before either can react, and freezes Loki as he passes him by, a strategy that should work just fine given he's trapped time travellers in perpetual loops with it and frozen intangible ghosts,then proceeds to lay the blitzin on Thor to KO him, after knocking away his hammer first ,Gladiator style,before coming back to finish the job on Loki (if that's even necessary)
ACE IN THE HOLE
Let's assume for some reason, though I can't think of any, this basic strategy does not work. Let's assume Thor is still conscious and Loki's somehow broken free, even then , unless my esteemed opponent is going to argue Thor and Loki vastly outclass Superman in stats, Superman has a go-to winning trick, when facing opponents as strong as himself or stronger than himself or indeed amped to planet busting levels. Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you solar flare.
In this section I shall address some of the out of context scans posted by my opponent
1. This is the clincher, this assures my victory. In this scan Thor kills loki, vaporizing his body, yet Loki lives in Astral form and even possesses the body of All-father Odin! Loki's entire body was vaporised, he had no brain, yet his astral form lived on.
What was left out- First things first, this is nonsense. Loki can and has been beaten by brute force alone, several times, for instance the time Sentry/Void literally exploded him despite him having the norn stones. Which would make things like this an outlier, even if it didn't have context, which unfortunately for my opponent , it does
I mean maybe my opponent thought Loki had future knowledge/prep/ soul shrouds in this battle too but I'm pretty sure we didn't agree to that. It's also interesting to note the time my opponent seems to spend, debating himself
but even if he could it will not matter because my team has not only the second most powerful Aesir but his brother
Clearly Loki is in fact the most powerful of the Aesir , including Odin , given he is apparently straight up indestructible now, and can possess anyone , including and especially Odin if and when the fancy takes him, or at least any time he goes to Odinsleep
So can my opponent make up his own mind here? Is or is not Loki the most powerful of the Aesir? Yes or No?
Unless my opponent is admitting the feat is hokum and inapplicable without explicit future knowledge, prep, a set up where he literally wants someone to kill him, and achieved only via an item of power unavailable to him here.......in which case we can forget this, move on and focus on actually applicable arguments
Now given Loki was masquerading as Strange it could be that the Harbringers were merely a fiction he spun as part of his greater plan, which begs the question as to why he had to step out of his own temporal spell when he could just override it.
All in all, unless there's a more clear cut feat out there, I'm leery of granting Loki the ability to stop time at will
3. Thor's attacks literally bust planets and moons with their shockwaves. As you can see before the fight began the planet was whole, but after Thor started attacking the planet busted and the shockwaves broke the moon. This far more impressive than any of Supes striking feats, as he has never busted a planet like this, and his shockwaves most definitely not reach out and bust planets moons.
What was left out- This is a strange definition of "busting" anything. First the "moon busting" , although that is obvious from my opponent's scan itself. The other thing here is the use of the term "shattering of worlds" . I'm assuming that meant "shattering the surface of the planet they were on", which is all we see (after a fair while of them hitting each other, narration wise) on panel. "Shatter" could mean anything from "cracked slightly" to "break completely", the latter seems somewhat unlikely given the only quantifiable effect we see on a "world" involves (a small portion of ) the surface of the nearest celestial body (a moon) cracking slightly
If that indeed is the standard meant by "shattering of worlds" according to the writer or "busting" according to my opponent , I see no reason to particularly consider this feat more than it is, especially when neither the planet they are on, or the nearby moon crumble into pieces. Unless my opponent now wants to argue Thor "shattered every world" except the planet they were actually on and it's nearest moon, the actual on panel evidence and on panel proof of the standards of "shattering" according to the writer, show us Thor busted nothing at all, by the common understanding of the term . Here's an example of actual planet + moon "busting". Note the difference
Oh and one last thing, aside from it being a combined feat for Thor and Gorr, it's important to note that they are either very far up in the atmosphere, possibly already in space (as opposed to Superman) or the planet is simply very tiny, either of which explains why the attack was slightly more far reaching, given we can actually see it's curvature
4. Loki is a master of the mind as well. In the above scans he hypnotizes the Silver Surfer who is a high level telepath himself
It seems like a lot of trouble to go to if he could simply hypnotize him. Especially when that is outright noted to be a hearing loss spell. That aside this is from way back when Surfer could be knocked around by Ben Grimn, used to be listed in SpiderMan's weight class in the handbooks, and before anything remotely close to planetary level mental abilities, the earliest of which would be overpowering the Kree Supreme Intelligence with the soul gem in the late 80s
Clearly my opponent saw fit to ignore all this and altogether forget that Surfer had mental feats little better than "put a few guys to sleep" at that time (and no resistance feats whatsoever iirc) . That or he truly believes issues that show Loki>Surfer or indeed Thor>Loki+ Surfer, are entirely credible without even noting this was a much much weaker Surfer. That or he simply chooses to outright ignore that being a hearing-loss spell
5. Loki has all his powers in Astral form and though weakened is still powerful enough to battle CLASSIC DR STRANGE!
In those early stories, he gets trounced by Loki, beats Dormammu only because Dormammu puts major handicaps on himself, etc. In the very earliest stories, Mordo is a serious threat to him. After a little while (maybe a few years in the stories considering those early ones may have been every other month), he's beating Mordo empowered by Dormammu
But I'm glad my opponent believes
Thor>Loki> "Classic" Strange
6. Loki can absorb, harness and channel the energies of an entire dimension, Supes Solar flare would be a snack for him.
What was left out- Yes Loki can indeed draw energy from a "dimension" whose dark energies complement his own, the one time. Glad we are now all on board with "Loki's a dimensional/universal scale energy manipulator" , which seems to go along nicely with the Loki> Odin thing that was being pushed earlier. Pity then that he needed the help of .....uhhh Jarvis to carry out his plans . But wait, didn't my opponent just call the Loki vs Surfer and Strange issues totally legit? The ones where Loki was literally scared shitless of Thor after stomping Strange when weakened, and couldn't beat Thor even when he added his own power to Surfer's?
I'm very confused. My opponent has, as a consequence of his arguments and statements, created two paradoxical comparisons-
I mean most of that can be explained by "amped by a specific energy dimension that he had access to, that one time , whose dark energies complement his own and for which he still specifically needed....ehh Jarvis to carry out his plans but which ultimately did not empower him directly but only allowed him to create villains based on Jarvis' memories " , all of which is meaningless here given he won't be having access to a specific energy signature here.
But sure, we can go with "dimension busting Avengers" and "Loki> every other Avenger villain put together" too
FURTHER CLARIFICATION OF MY OWN ARGUMENTS
In this section I shall address the parts of my own argument questioned by my opponent
Because Speedblitz, that's really all these arguments ever boil down to isn't it? The Superman debater discards everything else and focuses on speed,
No, no my opponent must have missed what I actually said. Here it is again
And a bunch of other super powers- super hearing, super vision, super stamina yada yada that are mostly irrelevant, not because they can't hurt Thor and Loki but because the next power, along with super strength , is the only one that really matters here
You see there are but two things that matter here- whether he is so much faster than his opponents that he can blitz them both before they can react , and whether he is strong enough to hurt them while doing so, or does he end up like Fox Quicksilver? Flashy but ultimately useless because he couldn't hurt Apocalypse
Given the answer is yes, and yes to both, it does indeed make everything other than the other guys' durability, moot. The final question would be, could Thor or Loki survive a prolonged one sided assault from Superman, which would require them to have durability way beyond your standard class 100, to even retaliate? The answer to that is a resounding "No"
Now my opponent would have a point if this were a speed equalized battle . I happily acknowledge that facts like energy draining/TP/magic/red sun etc would come into play if this were a speed equalized battle . It's high time my opponent acknowledged something too, that all these are meaningless when the battle starts and ends before they know it
not differentiating between travel speed or combat speed.
Heh. We shall see
Let us take a look at the speed feats my foe has supplied. My opponent has posted scans of supes reading really fast and processing info really fast, but that is irrelevant to this fight considering he never fights at those speeds, this isn't a test of reading speed, this is a fight
Yes, I can see how learning a completely new science or processing information that supercomputers can't, would be less challenging than throwing a punch
I mean he actually moves his super humanly strong hands at superhuman speed with enough delicacy to not shred the pages or set the books on fire, all while processing information that would take humans 10 years to learn, in 5 minutes .........yet he can't use those hands and that reflex speed for......throwing a punch?
But the biggest fallacy here on my opponent's part is to differentiate between reaction speed and combat speed. If Superman can speed himself up to the point where he turns page after page without destroying the book, with his hands while simultaneously learning 10 years of medical science in 5 minutes, when he is under the pressure of his friend being on her deathbed and her life depending on him, it then makes no sense for him to forget that speed when facing say Batman, the only reason he does so is PIS. Comic writers end up writing the character into a corner with feats like this (even more common with the Flash) where they are living literal years in human moments. They literally could not get hit , unless they wanted to, each blow would be coming in slow motion relative to them , just like the pages of information Superman gobbled up, and understood and imbibed while turning pages at a literal blur relative to humans, just how he can take time out to think as everyone else simply ceases to move, relative to him in a thousandth of a second , or a hundredth
Given 90% of all characters in comics don't have superspeed, he must necessarily forget this power for the comic to last more than a page. What else is the writer supposed to do? Show every Superman comic with Superman observing everything else around him in slow motion, in a thousandth of a second or whatever? It becomes unfeasible, and Plot Induced Stupidity necessarily creeps in.
But we are going by consistent high end feats, no? In which case this either counts as what it is , or an outlier. By "counts as what it is" I mean "Superman can imbibe advanced medical knowledge that takes 10 years for humans in 5 minutes while simultaneously flipping through at least all the pages in a library without damaging them" which basically translates to "Thor/Loki is a statue to him"
That is what the feat means, no more, no less. The only thing left to do is to decide whether that's an outlier or not
It is however amusing to see how my opponent refuses to adhere to his own standards. Just to pick a couple of examples here
None of those things had anything to do with direct combat and are thus inapplicable according to my opponent's logic wherein unless a character does something in a fight, the feat is useless. I mean , I myself, completely disagree with that ,given energy draining and whatnot is an ability Loki has consisently shown which short of sudden brain handicaps and/or ...heh the plot demanding it, is not something Loki is simply going to forget in a combat situation. However
and unless he can show supes fighting for years in the span of a few seconds those scans are irrelevant and should be considered outliers as he can do nothing else at that speed
this means that despite showing him doing a much more complex operation (while moving his hands) as an equivalent, as well examples of him utilizing said speed in combat, I can't really use the feat because it isn't in direct combat, according to my opponent's logic, which dictates feats only count when used in direct combat
Which then makes it all the more bemusing when throughout his posts, he uses contrary logic, seemingly intent on debating himself again, rather than me. Either that, or different standards apply to the Asgardians as opposed to Superman. Which is certainly one way to go about it......
I shall now focus on the scans that pertain to this battle, or what my opponent wishes you to believe to pertain to this battle.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11126/111261107/4917525-4585563238-super.jpg This scan has no context, you cannot tell how fast the Flash is moving. In this scan the flash is not moving very fast, its obvious he is just playing with Supes, and Supes doesn't use speed in this scan either, he guesses where the flash will be which is pretty easy for him considering the flash was going slower than normal and was running around supes in circles.
See it doesn't matter how fast Flash was moving to begin with, he could simply feel the punch and start moving out of the way as his opponent turns to a statue and superspeed kicks in. Therefore to tag the Flash, you need to be at least comparable to him in speed for any of those "caught by surprise" shenanigans to work. Well whaddya know...it's the exact same thing as the Superman instance
The only thing left to establish was if this was the standard "90% of comic characters have no superspeed therefore Flash must get jobbed out to make the story interesting" PIS or not
Which given Superman has actual reaction feats on a scale of outreacting supercomputers by years, not related to fighting (and suddenly jobbing out) fast people, unlike Thor and Loki, that's a proper combat speed feat of an actually fast guy with his own speed feats matching another with his own speed feats. And please Superman totally used his superspeed as is obvious to all but the completely biased. I mean it's not like other, weaker Krptonians have similar performances too, is it? Oh .
This scan shows supes to be fast, but not nearly as fast as my foe wants you to believe, considering this is 52 flash also, who is no where near his pre 52 counterpart
He should be actually at least as fast at this point, though he wasn't back then. Not that it matters because he was still a gazillion times faster than Thor or Loki
.http://imgur.com/a/ukNpu this is also travel speed and has nothing to do with combat. Superman travels from pluto to earth, that's travel speed alone, nothing to do with combat
The earth is a pretty big place y'know. I must have missed the part where Jason fired a giant flare screaming "Hey we are here!You don't have to search the globe for us or anything!" . Perhaps my esteemed opponent would be so kind as to point it out to me?
http://i.imgur.com/oBkhGtq.jpg Another travel speed feat, nothing to do with combat at all. This scan does not show that supes sped around the world in less than ten seconds, he could have simply been right above the spot DD was when he saw him. There is not much context to this feat and it is travel speed, so irrelevant to the battle.
Superman searched the world, going over every place at 1000 miles per second. Ignoring everything else, as a very basic thing unless my opponent is one of those flat-earth truthers, he will have to admit that the earth is round, it tilts at every point. Thus to avoid shooting off into space at nearly mach 5000, he needs to adjust and turn at every point. This without going to the fact that he is looking for one humanoid out of 7 billion across the entirety of the planet's surface. Yeaahh I'd say that's not travel speed, all things considered, especially when
he could have simply been right above the spot DD was when he saw him
my opponent doesn't seem to understand how big the earth is unless he is saying that Superman was moving so fast he was literally above every spot on the planet at the same time
There is not much context to this feat and it is travel speed, so irrelevant to the battle.
http://i.imgur.com/Lx9FHkn.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/p3Pm66w.jpg These two feats go together. In the first scan Supes sees the area while flying at insane speeds, that's not impressive at all and has nothing really to do with the battle as Thor can do exactly the same. The second scan shows supes blitzing, but he does not blitz in an hundredth of a second, he decides what to do in that time then blitzes, and the scan says nothing of how fast supes blitzed. This scan is irrelevant as well, as it has really nothing to do with combat
What each of those scans show is Superman assessing the situation, weighing the pros and cons, etc all in some fraction of a second. The equivalent would be suddenly turning up at your house to see your family held at gun point, calmly assess the situation , notice the trespasser has an alien skeleton and one of your family members is dead , before acting with enough calmness to not kill said trespasser after immediately locating and neutralizing the primary threat , with the other being the equivalent of having an internal debate about which of Trump or Clinton is worse for the country, listing pros and cons and making the right choice based on the same.
Both as opposed to....throwing a punch. I mean a punch is thrown in either case but after deliberating over whether that should even be done. I mean I'm more than happy to check out feats of Thor doing exactly the same -registering, processing information and even solving moral quandries in less time than it takes the human eye to blink, if you have them. Otherwise this is essentially Superman seeing Thor's blows come towards him in slo-mo as he vaguely ponders whether Thor is even worth a nut shot or should he finish him off with an old school sock on the jaw and be done with it already
. http://i.imgur.com/c5qHCeX.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/xz7jh20.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/0Gzpyfx.jpg None of this is very impressive. Superman keeps getting hit in all those scans, he doesn't dodge anything, even his blitzing batman isn't impressive as batman still blasts him. This actually shows supes combat speed to be very low, incapable of blocking or dodging energy attacks which Thor has done on numerous occasions.
My opponent seems to be a fan of leaving out context , even when freely supplied for him
Thus we now find, according to my opponent that fighting someone who has combat pre cog right up to a hundredth of a second before the attack and has millions of minds filling in the right choice, is .....NOT an example of combat speed.
Once again round planet/actually searching for people etc. Light takes (well) less than a second to go around the planet once, for instance
http://i.imgur.com/3nKuryO.jpg this is better than the other scans, but still not relevant. There is no context for this scan, how long does it take supes to get to the moon, how fast is he blitzing, ect, this scan leaves much to be desired and is mostly just another travel speed scan.
Yes circling and covering and fighting over and eventually destroying a moon sized object in a panel is no indication of speed at all, sorry I mean it's "travel speed"
All that has really been shown is travel speed, I can post a travel speed montage for Thor if you want.
That's one way to go about Thor's lack of reaction speed feats: work the argument around to talking about travel speed. Kudos
ACTUAL COUNTER ARGUMENT
In this section I shall (finally) be attacking my opponent's strategy and logic
Counter point- And how powerful was the project's energy? More or less than Superman? Loki is also a master prepper as far as that goes. How much prep/external power did he call upon there ? Do we have any non speculative way of knowing for sure?Let's not forget Loki ended up as the tortured prisoner of Pym's prep by the end of the arc, able to do little more than cry to big brother for help
Whats to stop Loki from finding out Supermans weakness to red solar energy and exploiting it.
Counter point- The fact that Superman's Kryptonian mind is explicitly harder to control/read than a human's, or indeed more resistant than two telepaths put together ,which is the better than the best feat put forward so far. There's more if and when required. Oh Orion also gave him psionic blocks so there's that. Again, not that that will be a factor given speed blitz.
Loki can turn his entire body into whatever energy he wants, what is to stop him from turning himself into red sun energy? I have also shown Loki can drain energy, so why couldn't he simply drain supes of all his solar energy?
Counter point- For that he will need at least a couple of consistent, non outlier draining feats on a scale of Superman's energy levels. For the first, sure he can become any energy he wants, won't stop him from getting torn in half because Doomsday
I've seen nothing thus far to indicate Loki's more durable than DD, who Superman ripped apart despite death mists. In any case, speedblitz
My foe showed travel speed and perception feats, let me show actual reaction feats. http://i.imgur.com/TkoMl4b.jpg In this scan Thor punches an enchanter than catches mjolnir in microseconds, this is an actual reaction and combat feat.
Counter point- This indeed an actual, noteworthy reaction feat, and unlike my opponent, I'm not much of a fan of lowballing or coming up with ridiculous explanations , anything to deny clear cut reaction feats
With that being said , I call that an outlier and call on my opponent to provide proof of any other feat over 60+ years coming anywhere close to reacting in a millionth of a second, for this to be anything other than an outlier
http://i.imgur.com/eZny9d7.png deflects a swarm of oncoming meteors while traveling towards them at insane speeds, this is a reaction feat as he is actually moving his arms to deflect and react to meteorites coming at his ship.
Counter point- That's less quantifiable than even something like this. Actually it isn't, given the most visible meteor shower comes at the rate of ......a meteor a minute
The most visible meteor shower in most years are the Perseids, which peak on 12 August of each year at over one meteor per minute.
Here Thor leaps a tank shot from within a few feet. Thor is not running, there is no other context, from a standing position Thor leaps a tank blast coming from a few feet in front of him. This feet alone is better than any feat my foe has shown for supes.
Counter point-We were dealing in street level feats? Why didn't my opponent say so from the beginning? Here's 5 years ago jeans Superman literally outracing bullets without breaking sweat . That's certainly better than Thor's aim dodging (heh least my opponent could have done was use Thor's multiple actual bullet time feats)
My foe has shown nothing to suggest supes can blitz Thor, as I have shown Thor to have millisecond reaction speeds, react to tank blasts from within a few feat ect. My foe needs to show proof of reacton speed for Supes or there is no way for him to prove that Thor wont blitz Supes,
Counter point- Correction, what my opponent has actually done is list a feat in a millionth of a second and a couple of others that aren't even close to that level.
So far my opponent has, barring the one feat , shown basically street level feats which jives with Thor's depiction of years and years of being portrayed as someone with street level reflexes- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 etc . I could go on and on here, but the fact remains Thor is consistently street level in terms of speed, with no clear cut feats (other than a single microsecond feat over 60+ years) to counter those showings
Thus you can see why someone whose speed is alternatively compared to a "cloud" and a "lion" while struggling to deal with the likes of Daredevil and Logan and Cap, nevermind Pietro who openly mocks him and only goes down to an AoE, is basically fodder to someone who can match the Flash and similarly fast people, even whose younger cousin gets in her blows in a superspeed matchup with the Flash in the arc where he is nigh instantly making a thousand adjustments to his body to react to anything, who literally lives out years in human minutes etc
Counter point- My opponent doesn't seem to understand the difference between a bullrush and a speedblitz. Allow me to demonstrate. This is a bullrush. This is a speedblitz
One of those involves reacting to make sure you punch every time, while moving the hands in conjunction with the mind so as not to swipe empty air. This requires actual inherrent superspeed at every point to react to every change in position. There is no "ON" switch to be activated here. This is called a speedblitz
The other involves setting up and aiming towards a direction, using travel speed in a straight line with minimal or no change in direction from origin point to target. This is called a bullrush, it requires time to set up, reflexes to kick in to aim at a target and the target itself being slow enough to see the rush coming and not get out of the way/unable to react to it. If however the target is not a complete snail and/or caught by surprise (the bullrusher still has to be at least close in reaction speed to do this), said target can simply step out of the way....not even a huge distance, to see the rusher crashing into the background, cartoon style, unable to change directions at that (travel) speed. It requires an "ON" switch to turn on the travel speed after the target has been scoped.
Loki is also immune to temporal laws such as the grand father paradox, he killed went back in time to kill Bor, then tormented Odin back in time so Odin would adopt him.
Counter point-And here we see two more instances of my opponent's favoured "feats don't count unless used directly in combat, for Superman, but they totally do for Loki" tactic. Clearly there are different standards for Asgardians
Also
Loki is also immune to temporal laws such as the grand father paradox, he killed went back in time to kill Bor, then tormented Odin back in time so Odin would adopt him.
Dude your very scan says Loki can't actually change the past but only make sure what happens, happens, and he neither has any idea nor cares how that works out. The second example outright notes so
Also again irrelevent because Loki is getting superspeed frozen, remember?
I mean the H'el feat alone seals it, that was under a red sun, in an environment hotter than the sun, against a guy trying to travel out of the timestream. He was instead stuck in an infinite loop
C) Superman could simply tear him in half given zero feats on Doomsday's scale, or whack him senseless as he passes him by given it requires but one proper blow from Thor to daze him
CONTEXT! This scan is strange indeed, it seems H'el has chronal strands wrapped around him or something, I cant really tell whats going on here but what I can tell is that this is not normal time manip. My foe needs to show more context for this scan, because it looks like something unique to H'el and irrelevant to normal or magical time manipulation.
Counter point- There's no further context. That's just the way H'el teleports into a timestream. When he tried doing that again to get outta there , Superman froze him
THE ASGARDIAN STRATEGY
Because you have shown no reaction or combat speed feats for supes and I have shown a few for Thor, here are 3 ways it could play out.
SCENARIO 1
Supes and Thor fly at each other, exchanging blows, Loki looks into Supes mind and finds his weakness for red sun energy, turns himself into red sun energy and goes to help fight. Supes fights for a bit, but weakened is no match for the Asgardian duo and loses from a Mjolnir strike to the face.
Not happening. Thor and Loki get blitzed before they know it
Extra notes- Superman has actual psychic inhibitors and Loki's feats aren't good enough to take over his mind
SCENARIO 2
Supes and Thor fly at each other, exchanging blows. Loki sees Supes is powered by Solar energy and drains him of his power, Thor then beats Supes to a bloody pulp.
Not happening.Thor and Loki get blitzed before they know it
Extra notes-Loki's non outlier energy draining feats thus far are seemingly nowhere close to Superman levels
SCENARIO 3
Loki stops time, then he and Thor beat on superman till he is dead.
Thor and Loki will actually be fighting for years in what seems seconds to supes, because Loki is a master of time manipulation.
Not happening.Thor and Loki get blitzed before they know it
Extra notes- If Loki has other instances of stopping time, I'd like to see em because the current example is dubious to say the least
there are numerous other reasons why supes would get stomped by this team that I have not yet touched upon.
None of which are feasible when you're getting blitzed. I'm not even going to bother to counter those bullet points of "reason", aside from being repetitive and already addressed, some are downright ridiculous (eg-Thor has better reaction feats)
THE CLINCHER
Earlier I remarked upon my opponent's fondness of debating with himself. I suspect we shall see this in action again shortly
For instance, my opponent says this
So as you can see, Solar Flare is suicide for Supes. I am just getting started, there are numerous other reasons why supes would get stomped by this team that I have not yet touched upon.
Now aside from doing me the great disservice of not reading my posts properly such as Thor lacking Mjolnir at the crucial point of having his face lighted up by a flare,
Superman attacks first before either can react, and freezes Loki as he passes him by, a strategy that should work just fine given he'strapped time travellers in perpetual loops with it and frozen intangible ghosts,then proceeds to lay the blitzin on Thor to KO him, after knocking away his hammer first ,Gladiator style,before coming back to finish the job on Loki (if that's even necessary)
Thus saving me the trouble of having to address another outlier showing, my opponent seems to have either forgotten or not read what was said about the flare in the first place
Let's assume for some reason, though I can't think of any, this basic strategy does not work. Let's assume Thor is still conscious and Loki's somehow broken free, even then , unless my esteemed opponent is going to argue Thor and Loki vastly outclass Superman in stats, Superman has a go-to winning trick, when facing opponents as strong as himself or stronger than himself or indeed amped to planet busting levels. Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you solar flare.
Or did he?
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you @asgardianbrony agreeing with me and saving us all a lot of trouble
As you can see, Thor is just as durable and hits far harder than supes
And thus Thor, by my opponent's own admission, being only as durable as Superman , gets KOd harder than an amped Ullyses. Game, set and match. Thanks for playing
Once again I thank @asgardianbrony for saving us all a lot of trouble and flat out admitting Superman wins here. Now I've been told that it's always good to sign off with a bit of good ol fashioned humour so here we go
Thor has better reaction feats.
And that's it folks, I'm all out of jokes for now. Thanks again.
Ehh...images would have looked cluttered though I agree with the links thing, every time you click on one you have to open up the spoiler again to get back to where you were (the solution being "open in new tab") Unfortunately once posted, its very difficult to remove ALL the spoilers
Ehh...images would have looked cluttered though I agree with the links thing, every time you click on one you have to open up the spoiler again to get back to where you were (the solution being "open in new tab") Unfortunately once posted, its very difficult to remove ALL the spoilers
Do you suggest I should?
Oh no, it's not a major problem. You have already got into this debate so don't change halfway.
It's just a suggestion for your next debate. As having to go to a new tab every time to see a scan get tedious and annoying at times. But if you wnat to avoid scan clutter this is the nicest way of posting pictures.
Gallery
But I'm not some formatting genius myself though. My formatting is fairly simple and not as nice looking as yours.
Some of us just don't like constantly posting 1 word comments to up that count.
I know, but it's also because often - not always, but often - the people with low post counts just are too new and don't really understand how CaV's work. Think of it like real life voting; not everyone under 18 is too stupid to be a voter, but a lot are, so its just safer to put a ban on under 18's voting.
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