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#201 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio
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#202 Posted by deactivated-59b71d5620272 (3438 posts) - - Show Bio
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#203 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio
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#204 Posted by deactivated-59b71d5620272 (3438 posts) - - Show Bio
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#205 Posted by Vertigo- (17841 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll see if I can't vote on this in the next day or so

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#206 Posted by TheDeathstar (4435 posts) - - Show Bio

Its fine lol, I do not even have time to explain and expand it myself. Too busy with things.

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#207 Posted by Cerberus369616 (2174 posts) - - Show Bio

Great debate, fulfilled all my expectations. My Vote goes to @emperorthanos . This fight was in this debate and usually in most reasonable debates between the two characters almost framed as Bruce Lee vs Mike Tyson (a bit more nuanced). Superman is stronger, more durable and certainly has the speed to be a threat. Goku on the other hand has a sharper more precise edge thanks to his skill, superior reflexes and short distance speed. Both have Striking power in spades to put the other down with a couple tricks to keep themselves versatile. What Emperorthanos sold me on is Goku's edge in combat speed and how casual his upper end damage output can be. Neither are gonna just trhow out moon busting or planet busting strikes but Goku's upper end hits require (seemingly) much less wind up and exertion than Superman's who often needs a ramp up time. Maybe it's the nature of Goku's physical being largely based off ki (something both debaters touched on) as opposed to physics like Superman's often are but the difference was apparent. While Superman can take more punishment, Goku will dish out more and avoid more of Superman's over the course of the fight.

Much respect for Both @lvenger and @emperorthanos , a very classic debate on both sides and a close one especially Lvenger, nobody debates for Superman like he does and it's always interesting to see him debate for the character against Goku since he has respect for both characters.

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#208 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@cerberus369616: Thanks for the feedback and reasoning, I see why ET swayed your vote.

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#209 Posted by HigherPower (12399 posts) - - Show Bio

When I do vote it'd probably take up half a page but it is what it is

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#211 Edited by deactivated-5b60e98a8eb99 (11593 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll give it a read.

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#212 Posted by ODIN619360 (2612 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan said:

When I do vote it'd probably take up half a page but it is what it is

I did the same when I voted on Lvenger's/ThorParker's CaV and they didn't have a problem with it. And long posts are nothing bad because not only they prove you actually read the debate, but focusing on every detail of the argument helps users improve even more.

Not entirely true, an individual can read as much as they like. But if that single person reading is lacking the basic comic book knowledge in regards to what they are reading. it may just seem like another language. There are also some individuals whom can skim through a text, look for key words, maybe cover the text round the keys words, points and wright several paragraphs.

In regards to your self. Writing detailed paragraphs is no stranger to you. In fact very few of your comments are less that 50 words. Point is, although being thorough when reading can help towards creating a better argument. For me having and or knowing the basics is just as, if not more important.

Long posts are not always bad, when written by someone like your self. You are an interesting writer whom knows how to engage the reader to read and keep reading. All the way to the end. As for some posts much like this one. It is not that they are too long, just that they seem to not be going anywhere, no direct, confusing content.

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#213 Posted by ODIN619360 (2612 posts) - - Show Bio

That was for all intensive purposes a great debate. For me Lvenger did a very good job of not only showcasing Supermans strength. But he also went to some lengths to highlight durability and striking power. I like how Lvengers counters were straight to the point, no hidden agender or in any way did he try to trip his opponent up. Not only did lvenger use scans he also supplied issues.

But overall my vote will go with @emperorthanos For me personally I found his points he was making easier to follow. I like how you agreed with points that Lvenger made. but not so much that your own argument would have been effected negatively for example.

No but he can emit and fire ki energy from his hands in several different ways. And unless DBZ characters can use other forms of energy now, that must mean Frieza has a level of ki control to do that. Even if it's only on the physical level.

I can understand where you're coming from with what Nappa did to Gohan's blast but Frieza sending Gohan's blast away did not look like a physical feat in the least. Moreover, since ki blasts are not as physically solid, that still means an element of ki control is necessary to manipulate and control those blasts. You can't expect me to believe that anyone can touch them as long as they're strong enough, it just does not appear to be presented that way.

Well he can amplify his physical with ki of course. Which is common with every other DBZ character. But that still shows how hard he would be able to hit someone.

Here emperothanos agrees with points made.

It's not completely devoid of ki. All of Frieza's attacks use ki whether they are in the form of blasts or in the form of punches or kicks. Same with Goku and every other DB character. All their strength, speed, durbaility comes from it. Frieza clearly just kicked that blast, Piccolo himself said that. That seems far more likely to have happened than Frieza being able to redirect ki purely though his ki manip when he couldn't tell how powerful the blasts was. Not anyone can just touch them, but considering all of Frieza's physical attack use ki

And here ET show that ki is commonly used by most in the DB universe and that this is not uncommon. He stayed on point and imo got the message across. This is only one of a few exmples.

He also did a good job of show casing Goku's striking abilities and reflexes. And making a good case in regards to not only why Goku can match supes, but how he can overcome his durability and potentially win.

But to be honest this was a tough call and my opinion should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Great CAV and I hope to see you both in more to come.

@lvenger

@emperorthanos

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#214 Posted by Bossmonster (3113 posts) - - Show Bio

Going for Lvenger.

Strenght and durablity are massive in a fight and I honestly don't think he offer enough to win those arguments.

Also in the energy projection vs Supermans durability. Lvenger did the right thing arguing for what Goku as shown vs entertaining what he "should" be Capable of to suggest Goku wouldn't easily finish superman with beams.

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#215 Posted by WollfMyth209 (17042 posts) - - Show Bio

An incredible debate, and entertaining to read. I'll vote for @lvenger.

His arguments were generally more to the point, more well-rounded, more consistent and he's proven the wide array of ways Clark can take Goku out, demonstrated his superior versatility as a combatant and rivalling physical capabilities. Very good job, both of you.

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#216 Posted by shirso (4641 posts) - - Show Bio

Will try to give this a read.

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#217 Posted by blackpantherisb (7337 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm definitely gonna vote.

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#219 Edited by Blaredevil (509 posts) - - Show Bio

This was an interesting read for me and I commend each side for providing good arguments, but ultimately I cast my vote for @lvenger. His case for Superman was concise and put a great deal of emphasis on the ways this fighting scenario would go down between the two combatants and advocating for his case on behalf of Supes.

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#220 Posted by deactivated-5b57e45d84a85 (157 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote would go to @emperorthanos

For me he proved that Goku was faster especially with Instant Transmission. While their strength seemed equal except Goku didn't require build up like Superman. And I was convinced tht Goku's kamehameha's would be able to put down superman. He did mention how they are more than just planet busting in power and proved exactly why. Lvenger did prove Superman was more durable though ET conceded that point early on and managed to work around it. Lvenger also brought up some interesting ways for SUperman to win but they were either countred or certainly wouldn't be in character. Goku also seemed to be more skilled which may not have a big impact overall but was still important to note.

Really good debate overall, probably the best I have read on vine

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#221 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio
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#222 Edited by Gaoron (9154 posts) - - Show Bio

Finally readed all of it. Great debate, i was literally changing my opinion back and forth while reading. Thanos made some good arguments regardless speed and physicals but i feel like he could milk off some more especialy in energy manipulation department but i see he wanted to debate without relying on scaling and being restricted to manga only was not helping either as Superman had way more feats to work with while some of Gokus ones were restricted. Ivenger did nice in durability and physicals aswell convincing me Clark can tank strikes from Goku and even overpower him. Both of you were making amazing counters for every argument especially skill or the one when Thanos proved Goku dont need to scream and charge for ages to fire his kamehameha and durability ones which i was scared about at first when i saw you are going the split durability route. In the end Ivenger proved Supes is fast enough to keep up and strong enough to overhelm Goku with superior physicals while Emperor proved Goku can hold his own and woke up at the end with Goku having dc advantage while countering Supes durability arguments but maybe that was his tactic for this debate. Bring up the biggest guns at the end. In the end my vote goes to @emperorthanos after fantastic and tough debate.

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#223 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18581 posts) - - Show Bio

I will read through this and vote some time next week.

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#224 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio
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#225 Edited by HigherPower (12399 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: @lvenger: Sorry, at least a few more days. I was typing my response and it was at like 800 words when my computer rebooted out of nowhere... the most frustrating sensation ever is typing up something for hours and then having to start over because of some mishap

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#226 Posted by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

will give feedback momentarily.

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#227 Edited by DeathandGrim (4842 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright it took a while to read this and I gotta say awesome debate guys, well done.

I'm casting my vote for @lvenger here. Main reason being I felt like the arguments from Lvenger were more solid with scans generally backing him.

I was never truly convinced Goku could take Superman's onslaught for very long. The drastic difference in durability and stamina as well as strength really only put Goku into a linear battle plan: use kamehamehas but no solid evidence was shown that these would put Superman down for the count. The word "planetary" was thrown out a lot and scaling was well worn in this debate. But the most devastating attacks in the DBZ verse were all charged up even the Beerus King Kai's planet took a few moments. And in those few moments would be a big enough window for Big Blue to do serious damage.

One big problem I had was with arguments for Goku's strength. I was seriously not convinced that hitting Frieza was a good barometer for strength. There was one embarrassing lifting feat for Goku that I wish was brought up so I won't factor it in but still I didn't find myself in the Goku camp. Superman's raw power is just disgusting. Goku had counters for pretty much all of Superman's extraneous abilities but the strength was never effectively argued away.

The case for speed was nice and it was nice to see such solid arguments be made for Goku and I was actually convinced of the edge he had. But ultimately I couldn't see it being a deciding factor. Superman has shown to be able to fight and think at high speeds as well so the gap was small. Superman has dealt with speed and teleportation on many occassions and he's not gonna be taken for a ride from just speed.

The big problem is letting Goku charge up is something Superman wouldn't do at all. He doesn't lust for the challenge like Goku does so he would be on him as much as possible and do his best to keep Goku off balance as shown through the many examples. A fight is something Superman doesn't want and what he does want is for any fight to be done as soon as possible. And any scenario of Goku reaching SSJ I'm seeing be short as I envision superman literally beating the Super out of him. Not without a few beams maybe tanked but uncharged beams look like something Superman can handle considering he flew into his own crippling weaknesses and managed to keep swinging. But the uber "planet buster" beams take time Superman absolutely won't afford Goku.

And while he's under the yellow sun he's steadily regaining energy as he fights while damage to Goku's body and stamina would stick far easier due to not having this advantage. I see an even fight for a slight bit before the gaps in their defenses shine through. Superman being a humongous brick with a replenishing power source is a much bigger advantage.

In the end both sides argued very well. Good show.

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#229 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathandGrim2: Thanks a lot for your detailed vote, I appreciate your reasoning too.

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#231 Edited by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: We decided to close it. We both got 5 fair votes each(Some votes we agreed not to count) so it was a tie.

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#232 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: We decided to close it. We both got 5 fair votes each(Some votes we agreed not to count) so it was a tie.

Damn. Good stuff guys.

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#233 Posted by HigherPower (12399 posts) - - Show Bio
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#234 Posted by ANTHP2000 (28525 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm still going to read this. I know next to nothing about the characters to have an opinion on the matchups, it's just that it is historically popular.

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#235 Posted by KanyeCosby (7252 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going with @lvenger. He made more compelling arguments. Superman should win this fight fairly easily. He has a massive strength, durability, and speed advantage, not to mention that Goku's main attacks that can hurt him have to be charged up to be used. Superman has more feats overall, which is why he wins this fight.

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#236 Edited by Chronicplane (9365 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: @emperorthanos: Damn this was so good, you guys did an exceptional Job in this debate and out of all the countless Goku vs Superman debates I've seen this was the best balanced and fair you guys deserve a round of a applause. Reading this was so fun :)

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#237 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan: Thanks, I look forward to reading it.

I'm still going to read this. I know next to nothing about the characters to have an opinion on the matchups, it's just that it is historically popular.

Really? Thanks for the investment even after voting's closed.

I'm going with @lvenger. He made more compelling arguments. Superman should win this fight fairly easily. He has a massive strength, durability, and speed advantage, not to mention that Goku's main attacks that can hurt him have to be charged up to be used. Superman has more feats overall, which is why he wins this fight.

Sorry, voting is closed, we weren't getting any more votes at the time. Thank you reading and voting though.

@chronicplane Glad you enjoyed the debate, me and ET did our best to entertain.

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#238 Posted by BlitzSikes (1988 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice thread