Just finished reading that post, delicious.
Wraith’s skin was stated to be tougher than New 52 Superman’s and he was shown tanking red sun bullets that pierced Superman’s skin. As for Diana, she did survive Superman’s bloodlusted punch in the Sacrifice fight.
He was stated to be tougher and he probably is but that still doesn't give him the level of durability that Frieza has. As for Diana she was basically oneshotted in that fight. The heat of re-entry was what kept her from being knocked out.
It’s true that DBZ characters can amplify their physicals with ki, although it’s not always as obvious as Goku charging his finger with ki to block Trunks’ sword.
But that’s the thing, if everything comes from ki in DBZ as you say, then by that logic blocking and deflecting large ki attacks is also down to ki too. Frieza’s Final Form was well beyond everyone else at that point so it should be irrelevant for Frieza to not know the strength of the blast. There’s also the fact that kicking away a potentially planet busting blast does not make you a planet buster.
Yes deflecting large ki attacks involves the use of ki. It uses ki to amplify ones physical strength to be able to kick way the blast. If simply having ki was alright then people wouldn't struggle to over power such powerful attacks nor would Piccolo have specifically stated how he did with just a kick. Though yes kicking away a planetary attack doesn't mean you can planet bust with kick. However it does show how powerful Frieza can strike. And goku being able to tank such powerful strikes in both base and SSJ.
Whilst Frieza at 100% should have been more powerful, he was also losing power far faster than his regular use of his Final Form. To be honest, the laser example doesn’t exactly help your case given how embarrassing it is for Goku’s durability. If Goku can be hurt by a laser just by dropping his guard, that wouldn’t speak very highly for his durability. This is rarely shown with Superman’s durability when his guard is down. By comparison, Frieza survived being cut in half, an energy blast from Goku and an exploding planet. That’s much higher natural durability than Goku has shown.
As I said I'm not arguing Goku's durability. However Superman and Goku gain their power differently. Superman doesn't transform or supress his power like Goku does. By lowering his ki he lowers it to the durability of regular enhanced human. Superman doesn't lower his durability. However that wasn't point. My point was that if Frieza at say 1% of his power has planetary durability. At a 100% he should be a lot more durable. And Goku's strikes where still doing serious damage to him despite this. Now again I'm not arguing that Goku has planetary striking. Simply that he can harm those have survived planet explosions.
You’re right that Botamo posed no real threat to Goku but Frost did come charging at Goku with a speed bullrush once he transformed into his final form in the anime, which Goku admittedly blocked. He also tried blitzing him several times in the manga version of the fight based on a quick viewing of the manga chapters on Youtube. Regardless, Goku knowing that Superman can hit hard doesn’t mean he can always stay ahead of him in this fight.
Nor is Goku going to unleash an all-out blitz like he used on Majiin Buu or Beerus. Because of the willing to kill rule though, I can argue that moon busting strikes are on the table for Superman since he’s less likely to hold back.
Well Goku would either block or just dodge Frost's bullrushed. he never once attempted to just to tank his strikes. Goku does like to fight but he doesn't really tank attacks to show off like others. He will avoid and block Superman strikes. And no he won't instant transmission for every attack. However for Superman to use moon busting level attacks he has to bullrush from a distance. He has never really used this level of power on Earth or when fighting in a planet. In all 3 instances it was in space, and in two of them he was simply bullrushing a moon after flying at light speeds. Superman doesn't have the luxury here gaining momentum over a large distance. Goku isn't going to let him fly away from to do so. His regular punches aren't that powerful, his best feat was cracking a portion of the moon. And Goku doesn't need to instant transmission to avoid them. Goku knowing how hard Superman hits means he will attempt to dodge them and he should be able to dodge large bullrushes considering he has been able to IT out of large and fast ki blasts. And I don't see why he simply wouldn't go for an all out blitz in the fight. He too is willing to kill here and he knows this is an opponent that he deosn't have to hold back against. He is starting as a SSJ3 here so it is very likely he will atemppt to go for an all out blitz.
Goku was tired out though, that’s the key thing regarding the Cell Juniors’ fight with the Z Warriors. And if this is meant to imply that SSJ2s and above can one shot Frieza, I have my doubts about that. Since by feats Frieza has much better durability and tanked more than the Cell Juniors have.
However there was still Piccolo(Post Kami), Super Vegeta and Super trunks. All post ROSAT making them vastly superior to the SSJ Goku that fought Frieza on Namek. And yes I do think SSJ2 character and above can one shot Frieza. Cell Jr's didn't have the amount of showings because they weren't around for near as long. However we saw how they were able to tank hits form characters who are superior to Namek SSJ Goku who was doing significant damage to Frieza.
The Kyle construct that Superman broke through was dwarfing a city so it must have been a pretty strong construct. And John’s construct feat had the statement reinforcing John’s willpower being pitted against the force of Clark’s punch. I don’t see why I can’t cite examples of John’s willpower to demonstrate how impressive it is for Clark to bust through it.
John's willpower has allowed to him recreate an entire solar system. Superman's striking being greater than his will power would imply Superman having solar system busting punches. Which I think we can both agreed is absurd considering he has never displayed such level of power and has consistently displayed moon busting strikes.
While it being s surprise attack doesn't take anything away from the feat. The fact that he had to cross a great distance does. Goku on the other hand can use a powerful instantly has an SSJ3. Yes it takes effort but he can do it quickly.
Although you’re correct that Superman built up momentum before blitzing H’el and caught him by surprise, your analysis is incorrect in saying Superman’s planet shaking blows required a build up. When Superman was shaking the Earth whilst punching H’el, he was standing still as can be seen in this close up panel.
Yes taking him by surprise doesn't take away from how powerful the strike is I wouldn't say the momentum had nothing to do with it. Looking at the scans he bullrushed H'el and then we see him punch him at the end, we saw he was moving right before. I say that he punched him as they reached the ground which would still involve the momentum to certain degree. On top of that this is Superman's best striking feat in new 52. None of his other striking feats were on this level which would suggest to me that he does require a level of momentum to actually strike this hard.
Superman punched the Black Racer, the force of his blow rebounded off the Racer since the Racer is immune to harm being the avatar of death and the shockwaves cracked half the moon. Black Racer even says Superman is the one who has damaged the moon. That was all the result of Clark’s punch.
Fair enough. Though he did just crack a portion of the moon. Not outright busting it or cracking the whole thing.
The Shadow Moon feat is definitely Superman’s best in character striking feat compared with Goku’s. I’ve already shown that Superman’s punches on H’el were done with Clark stationary. If Goku is damaged or fatigued during the battle, he may struggle to avoid this Hail Mary move of Superman’s. Also, Superman has stated that he'd hit Konvikt hard enough to shatter small planets in Trinity #5.
I have a couple of things to say about this feat. Firstly I have to point out that this is simply a statement, made by Superman himself not by someone else or a narrator. I don't know how valid it could really be considering since Superman himself has never planet busted nor does he really scale from anyone who has. I see this about as valid as Cell saying he could blow away a solar system. Secondly, small planets can be even smaller than our moon which would make this feat even less impressive than some of the others presented. Konvict was also winded by a strike from Wonder Woman, albeit while holding his breath. It still shows that his durablity isn't really planetary which puts into question the validity of Superman's statement.
There is one last striking feat Superman has which matches the Shadow Moon feat without him needing to build up speed. This would be Superman one shotting Wonder Woman from the sun to the Earth in Wonder Woman #219. He just threw a punch at Diana without building up speed and KOed her in a single blow sending her millions of miles back to Earth in seconds.
While I will admit a strike like this would do significant damage, this was a very blood lusted Superman. IIRC he was seeing Doomsday who had just killed Lois. I don't think he would use this level of force even against an opponent he is willing to kill. On top of that he is actually pretty close to the sun here which I would definitely amped him a bit
Admittedly they do have some similar feats but Superman has more destructive feats consistently and his feat against Wonder Woman during Sacrifice shows he can deliver massive force without needing to build up.
Well Superman having more feats doesn't really mean much. Goku really only has 3 fights in that SSJ3 form. One of which he actually performed. So I don't think consistency is an issue. And yeah Superman can hit hard without a build up but Goku's most powerful strike is superior that. It would take his bullrushing strikes to actually match those striking feats.
Goku’s durability is a problem against Superman’s striking whereas vice versa Superman can take Goku’s best blows. Goku can use Instant Transmission to evade these attacks but he does not use it all the time instead relying on his speed which won’t be enough to avoid Superman’s blows.
Superman won't simply walk off his strikes, Goku's stronger attacks will do significant damage. On top of that Goku has a more destructive way of damaging superman. He doesn't need to simply evade attacks. He can still fire powerful blasts from a distance if he needs to do. He has a pretty big range advantage for this. And with the willingness to kill he can fire powerful planetary blasts. Only one really needs to hit Superman.
Possibly but I still don’t believe Goku was just worried about the lack of oxygen. He was also worried that he wouldn’t be able to survive the explosion since Frieza stated his physiology could withstand the planet’s explosion.
Cell’s attack was a planetary explosion meant to destroy the Earth so I’m not sure why it’s inherently more powerful than Frieza’s blasts. Just because Cell was more powerful than Frieza doesn’t mean all of his attacks are automatically more powerful. In most debates, we go by the evidence that is shown as you know and what was shown of Cell’s explosion was that it was a planet busting attack, not a multi planet busting attack. What was shown doesn’t support your perspective here.
With Majiin Buu though, you at least have evidence to support your claim that he can casually planet bust and then some. But you said you’re using manga version so that statement doesn’t count. By what has been consistently shown in both the manga and anime every time Goku has been faced with a planet busting attack, he has either escaped from it or died to it. The lack of oxygen excuse is only a minor part of this point. By feats, Goku cannot withstand a planet busting attack whereas Superman can.
I felt it was made sort of evident considering it was specifically stated before.
Cell was simply self destructing. And that was going to simply destroy the Earth. If he really just wanted to destroy, he didn't have to self destruct, he could have very easily fired a blast at the Earth. But he knew that wouldn't have been enough. Aside from that I think it is worth noting that at this instance Goku was almost completely depleted of his energy after his fight with Cell. He didn't eat a sensu beans and needed to be protect whilst fighting the Cell JR, as he was struggling as badly as the humans were against them. DBZ has made it abundantly clear how important ki is for durability.
Well it wasn't as explicit but it was made fairly evident in the scan that the explosion was far superior. Especially considering in the scan prior to this, we see him fire an attack meant for the planet and Vegeta as a regular SSJ could simply overpower it. However Buu quite visibly made a blast far bigger than the one before and it was explicitly stated how they couldn't defect it when moments before we see Vegeta on his own deflecting a planet busting attack. It's made abundantly clear that this is far more than a simply Earth busting attack.
You could argue it was PIS but it’s also worth remembering Frieza aimed his blast at the planet’s core, not Goku so Goku might not have tanked that attack very well had it been a direct hit. If those blasts were everything he had, I have to question why they weren’t more destructive. It’s hard to claim Frieza was going all out with his attacks and yet not have the planet be destroyed which Frieza has proven capable of. That brings us back to the logical inconsistencies I was referring to.
It is a logical inconsistency. or it was simply straight up PIS. We know Frieza can casually planet bust and we know he can survive planetary explosions. Such moments are present in all fiction, I could argue the same against Superman. However what did happen was Frieza kept blasting Goku with everything he had and it simply did nothing to him. His planetary level power wasn't enough. Goku even says and I paraphrase, the tyrant who can destroy a plaent can't kill one mane. Beucase his power wasn't enough so he resorts to busting the planet instead, as he knew Goku can't breathe in space.
Admittedly this is a nice defence of Goku’s heat durability. I’ve already cited as many heat vision feats for Superman that are worth discussing. So I’ll leave it to the voters to decide if Superman can or can’t affect Goku with his heat vision.
Well there is another impressive heat resistance feat for Goku when he fought Master Roshi. Here Roshi uses a lightening based technique to paralyze Goku as well as shock him. The heat of lightening can reahc up to 30,000 Kelvin which is quite a bit above the heat of Superman's heat vision.
Superman can just perform a heat vision lobotomy on Goku to take him out. When Superman was pretending to ‘kill’ The Elite in Action Comics #775, he pretended to lobotomise Black’s powers with a focused burst of heat vision. Although he just popped him with the equivalent of a forced concussion, Superman’s dialogue implies he can do this if he was willing to kill.
While this will have a deadly effect. I don't see how superman will get opportunity to do this. In the instant with Manchester, Black had already assumed he had won and was gloating which just allowed Superman to opportunity. While Bruce actually asked him to do it. In neither cases was his opponent actually fighting back against him. I'm not sure if he used this sort of attack against Parasite, but even Parastie was monologuing. Goku will actively being moving and fighting back not giving a second of respite until he is sure his opponent is dead. Because while Goku does tend to drop his guard he usually isn't going to kill his opponent like he is here
Perhaps not for hurting Goku but it does temporarily restrain Goku so that whilst he’s breaking free of the ice, Superman can hit him with a powerful punch or bullrush. Or he can freeze Goku's hands to stop him from firing ki blasts like he did against Superwoman.
Goku simply as to look at the ice and it break thanks to his telekinesis. He doesn't need to resort to using his brute strength. And considering how quick it it, it will hardly Goku for too long. In a worst case scenario he can attack Superman with TK to avoid getting hit instantly.
It may not have stopped him going all out with Cell but remember that Goku was well into his fight with Cell before using an all out Kamehameha on him. He didn't use planetary blasts against Fat Buu, the only planetary blast was one fired by Buu which Babidi said destroyed a fifth of the planet. It can be argued Goku used planetary blasts against Kid Buu on the Kai's home planet but he didn't spam them like you claim he did. He used Kamehamehas a couple times during the fight.
That was a typo. I meant to say he isn't going to sue Planetary attacks from the get go. Nor will he simply spam kamehamehas. However Goku doesn't need to. One kmaehameha from him in his SSJ3 form is all that is truly required to take down Superman if no outright kill him. His kamehameha's don't require a large time in SSJ3 Form. In his final fight with Kid Buu he did use the kamehame a couple of times And pretty early into the fight. Largly hecasue he knew what Kid Buu can do, just like the would here with knowledge
Focusing ki in a single point doesn’t reduce the blast radius of an attack though. This is the biggest problem with the ki control argument, sure you can focus energy into a single point but you can’t contain the blast radius. That’s just not how energy blasts work.
That might be debatable since Piccolo made a big deal about how he’d developed this new technique which would have required him to get stronger. Although this was before DBZ characters used peace time for serious training so I can see where you’re coming.
But that's how it has always worked in DBZ. We have seen it occur several times through out the manga. For example Vegeta's final sacrifice explosion resulted in small aoe effect despite the fact that he has shown planetary power and he was releasing every bit of it here against Buu. However he didn't want to destroy the planet so he contained it to make a much smaller blast. DBZ characters specifically make their attacks smaller to avoid colateral damage.
Goku was pretty worried about Cell firing his Kamehameha close to the ground for fear of the planet being destroyed yet he did the same thing and the Earth wasn’t blown up as a result. Everyone could tell the blast was powerful but for it to be planetary, everyone on Earth would have had to have noticed it. And based on what was shown in the manga, they didn’t. Instant Transmission was used to surprise Cell but I still don’t believe it actually reduced the destructive effect of the Kamehameha. You haven’t said how IT could reduce the blast radius on its own.
I don't see how everyone on Earth needs to notice the blast being planetary. When has anyone on earth noticed the power of attacks aside from the Z fighters. they can't sense ki like everyone else can so they would have no idea what is going on. I never said it reduced the destructive effect of the kamehamha. I said it was to ensure Goku didn't hit the Earth with the blast. It is quite clear and Tien even mentions teleporting as if it helped ensure the planet didn't hit. As everyone was afraid when it seemed like Goku was going to fire the attack up in the air.
The damage it did to Cell was impressive which is what makes it a good destructive feat. But the problem still remains that for something to be planetary, it has to have planetary scale. And it’s not crystal clear whether the IT Kamehameha did that.
I don't see how you would determine whether something is on a planetary scale? The only thing Goku could have done was bust the planet but that would make no sense for him to have done in the situation. There is plenty of things to suggest this attack was indeed planetary.
- Several people who can also sense ki and have planet busting capabilities sensed the attack and knew it would have busted the planet.
- It did more damage to Cell than Vegeta's attack did. Cell posses Frieza's cell's which would give him physiology and durability. If Frieza had been hit by this he would have been completely obliterated.
- We have seen a character vastly inferior to Goku bust a planet with ease. So it is pretty logical for Goku to be able to do so.
Based on Cell preparing himself against the Final Flash compared with Goku catching him off guard with the IT Kamehameha, the surprise did change the affect. A boxer can block a punch if his guard is up but if he lets his guard down and his opponent lands a sucker punch, the boxer will take more damage from it. I believe the same principle applies with Goku’s attack on Cell.
I can agree the attack took a lot out of Cell hence why I brought that instance up in the stamina section but the nature of the attack contributed to damaging Cell so severely along with its raw power.
Cell had prepared himself for Goku's kamehameha. He could see him charge it up the only thing that caught him offguard was the fact that he teleported in front of him. Cell never let his guard down. And you cans see a level of fear and surprise when he saw Goku charging up his attack while he was smiling when Vegeta did the exact same. Oh and Cell was also taken by surprise against Vegeta, he didn't expect the attack to be as strong as it was.
Well the gif from the anime doesn’t count since you said you were using manga version only. But you have shown proper manga scans of Goku not saying the name of his attack before firing it so I admit that proves he can do so. He is still in character though for this fight and old habits die hard.
Yeah it was simply to make clear my point that Goku doesn't need to shout kamehameha anymore, plus this is from the Super Anime and it is still canon Goku. And yeah he is in character. But this is EOZ GOku at SSJ3, and in all his fights he never used the name of his attack. So there is no reason to believe he would do the same here when he has never done.
Whilst this is impressive durability for Frieza, you can’t deny the explosion didn’t even cover half the size of Namek. I haven’t been able to find out the size of Namek but even if it is bigger than Earth, the explosion covering only a small part of the planet lessens the impact of this feat. It is still a planetary feat of course.
Well Namek is like larger than Earth. Earth was considering a small planet by Frieza and King Cold. While Dodoria claims that Namek is not to large a planet implying that it is still large to a certain degree. This should certainly prove that Namek is bigger than Earth. Regardless though it doesn't really matter, even if it is the same szie we know Goku took the energy of all the plaents in the solar system as well.
The Spirt Bomb may be more powerful than a regular planetary blast but as you said, Goku can’t afford to use a spirit Bomb in this fight, not to mention it wouldn't work on Superman. Goku’s KKx20 Kamahameha is not automatically more powerful than a planetary blast. For one it only did about the same amount of damage to Frieza that Namek’s explosion did. You’re playing a dangerous game stating Frieza’s durability is greater than Superman’s, especially since you know of Superman’s high end feats that blow Frieza’s out of the water.
The spirit Bomb should quite clearly be above just planetary since it took the energy of surrounding planets as well. But yes while Goku cannot use the spirit bomb in this fight he can very much use a kamehamha. Considering the kamehameha actually damaged Frieza who was kicking away a planetary blast, I'd argue it is a little above just planetary. However even if it isn't, Goku's SSJ3 Kamehameha's are certainly stronger especially based of what he did to Cell.
Well as of the feats posted at the time I would say Frieza's is greater. Even now with the current feats posted while Superman does seem superior it's not by much.
I’ve quibbled with Goku’s ability to destroy a planet more than enough in this debate but it's highly probable Goku can destroy a planet since weaker characters have done this
Which is basically my point. A character vastly weaker than Goku has done so, and a character Goku is atleast equal too has. Not to mention the half a dozen statements in between(One of which involves Solar System busting, however I have avoided bringing that up and will not resort to using it). However considering the amount of showings and the fact that the satements come from characters who sense ki and know exactly what planet busting power is. Goku should have at the very least planetary Kamehameha's. Especially since by the Cell Saga planet level kamehameha's were casually being fired.
It hasn’t been the first time weaker characters have deflected more powerful energy blasts. Shin nullified Majiin Buu’s attack on Gohan that would have otherwise killed him and Piccolo’s ki blast was smaller than the blast Gohan fired at Cell yet it deflected a much bigger attack. All that proves is that the ki blasts have enough power to force an attack out of the way, that does not prove that the deflection blasts are as powerful.
Weaker character deflecting attacks from stronger characters doesn't really change anything. Those attacks would have still been equal since the stronger wasn't going all out. Majin Buu was simply playing around also Shin telekientically blew up the attack. he didn't overpower it with a ki blast, so I don't see how that helps your point. I do not know what Piccolo instance you are referring to.
This does not mean Goku will be able to take Superman out as easily as you think. Superman has even more impressive high end durability feats that can enable him to resist Goku’s strongest blasts which I will now cover. First up, Superman has survived the collision of Apokolips and New Genesis and the subsequent explosion that formed The Fifth World in Death of The New Gods #8.
High end is important to note. Since Superman has often been hurt by weaker attacks. However that aside this is an impressive feat, but it does show how superman deal with a planetary level attack. This wasn't the destruction of two planets but them merging so the actual explosion was around half or less of each planet colliding. I will bring up a point you made earlier regarding Frieza' durability. The force of an exploding planet isn't focused on single point or person like a physical punch is. Likewise it isn't the samething as a planetary attack being narrowed and focused right at you, or having it go right at your face. Yes Superman was the only man on the plantet but it was huge explosion and it wasn't all focused on him like a Kamehameha will be. And Superman was KOed by this. If that is enough to do so then one Kamehameha from SSJ3 Goku should be enough
I’ve quibbled with Goku’s ability to destroy a planet more than enough in this debate but it's highly probable Goku can destroy a planet since weaker characters have done this.
Yes at the end of day. A character who Goku is vastly superior to has casually planet busted while another character who Goku has explicitly been stated to be equal to as also done the same. By the of DBZ Goku is most certainly casually planetary to multi planetary. I mean Goku reached the point where simply transforming into could have destroyed a planet
A second example of Superman’s incredible durability comes from Infinite Crisis #7 where Superman and his Earth 2 counterpart tank punches from Superboy Prime, fly Prime to Krypton through a field of Kryptonite debris, into a red sun and then fight a depowered Superboy Prime.
I don't see this being all that relevant. It is a good showing but the only real durability feat here is when he tanks Superboy prime strike which wasn't really a head on hit. This really doesn't prove at all how he will manage to survive a kamehameha from Goku.
This definitely shows how high Superman’s tolerance for pain can be especially since he was exposed to 2 of his weaknesses. Finally, there is Superman tanking an explosion 50 times larger than the Keplar supernova after being weakened by a Sun Eater’s red solar radiation blasts in Action Comics #847.
I won’t deny that the electromagnetic radiation was probably going to finish Clark off but tanking that massive explosion is well above any DBZ destructive feat, both shown and stated ones.
I was expecting this feat to come up eventually. I do have a couple of things to say about this. First of all the whole thing is being Narrated by his father who says it is 50 times bigger but that does sound like like hyperbole to me. On top of that he states that the Clark is hit by the electromagnetic shockwaves. Not the explosion it self, and that expanding ball of radation would have killed him. That means that Clark didn't actually tank the explosion but the shcokwaves. A quick check on the wikipedia page on supernova's state that the Electro magnetic radiaton is a minor sideeffect of the actual supernova(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova#Energy_output). Now if that radiation would have killed him then I find it hard to believe that he tanked a explosion which was so much more destructive especially since it is specified that the shock waves hit him. Infact in the following scan we literally see the explosion going off behind. Considering how big the explosion looks compared to Superman it is pretty clear Clark is a distance away from the brunt of the explosion.
Also Superman would later come into contact with another Nova 18 issues later in Action Comics #866. Here Braniac causes a sun to go nova by shooting some sort of missile towards it. Superman is on a planet in the same solar system. The explosion results in him being knocked out. Now this was the power of nova focused on him. He simply took a small part of the larger explosion while being on a planet which absorbed some of that prior to hitting him. Despite that he was still KOed.
I'd imaging a concentrated planetary+ attack hitting Superman head on will do just much damage if not even more. Even if one isn't enough Goku can fire another since the first will do significant damage.
The distance from one side of the Earth to the other is over 24,000 miles and Superman would have had to travel through multiple layers of solid rock to get there. Still, Superman has an even more impressive feat of physical where he tanks a hit from the Claw of Horus which drew its power from the magnetic core of the Earth, essentially making it a planetary strike, in Superman/Batman #4. He played possum to blindside Captain Marvel and Hawkman along with Batman in Superman/Batman #5.
I don't think the power of the Earth's core is equal to the power of Earth itself or that it has planet level power. Still an impressive feat I can admit that a single one of Goku's punches aren't going to take Superman out. Strength was never his strong suit however it will still do damage to Superman. While Goku's energy attacks will be what gives him the win. Atleast by knocking him out, if not outright kill him.
It’s not a bad speed feat for sure, it’s just outclassed by the majority of scans you’ve posted for DBZ and Goku’s speed. As for consistency and power differences, I guess it adds up though Krillin and Master Roshi’s speed was only too fast for normal human eyes to follow.
Yeah of course. this is like the first speed feat in the manga. It was simply to show my point regarding the heartbeat feat of the Kaio-ken which also isn't that impressive in comparison to other feats. But it does show that it isn't hyperbole. And it gives an idea of his combat speed.
gain that is scaling off of other DBZ characters but you’re right that it’s not fan made power levels that DBZ Youtubers arbitrarily come up with. Which at least makes this claim more reliable.
There is a degree of scaling but I'm not making up numbers. I think it's very logical to say that if Gohan can fire a kamehameha at a level of speed in SSJ2. Then Goku in SSJ3 can fire his kamehameha at the same speed. After all Goku is canonically stronger than version of Gohan in SSJ2. And SSJ3 is obviously superior to SSJ2.
I disagree, unlike the Doomsday example Superman was trading blows with Darkseid well before they got to the sun. The scans clearly show Superman fighting with Darkseid whilst travelling to the sun, which does show the speed required to move and punch at such speeds. Same as what Goku did.
I will this up the voters then. Because to me it just looks like Superman bullrushing Darkseid and that's it, he doesn't seem to be throwing punches or anything, his position seems unchanged from when started to when he reached the sun. Darkseid may have thrown a punch but that doesn't really mean much for Superman.
Instant Transmission might help Goku avoid some of Superman’s attacks but Goku doesn’t spam IT in combat either. He’s just as likely to rely on his own speed and evasion against Superman as he is to use IT. It depends what Goku does against one of Superman’s bulrushes and you can’t guarantee that he will use IT 100% of the time.
You are right. I cannot say he will do it every time. However he is fighting all out here and going for the kill. He does instant transmission out every attack he know he can't tank. Like against Cell or Buu's kamehameha's. I doubt Goku is going give Superman the chance to gain build up to bullrush him, however even is he does Goku will most certainly IT out of there as he knows it will likely kill him.
Goku may have needed to do it because of the heart virus but Vegeta definitely just transformed to show his power off. Besides, Androids 19 and 20 weren’t sensed for their power compared to Frieza. At least King Cold was stated to be equal to Mecha Frieza according to energy sensing. Gero and 19 never got compared to Frieza so we don’t know how they stack up.
Well they couldn't sense Android's to begin with. But I suppose it is possible they were waker than Frieza. Which is why it is Good thing that Frieza was also getting blitz by SSJ Goku during their fight too so it doesn't really make much of a difference overall.
As long as Superman can perceive and react to Flash tier speedsters, Goku won't be that far ahead of him in speed and evasion
Plaenty of people do this however it does clearly state Flash speed in one of those instance and he is quite clear moving fast so fair enough. I don't think ever said Superman would not be able to see Goku but rather have a hard time tagging him when you combine raw speed with Instant transmission. In those feats he is mostly perceiving Flash rather than fighting him. In teh one stance the only way he managed to tag Flash was by using a finger which would have no effect here.
If senses had nothing to do with this instance, why did Vegeta mistake a tree trunk for Goku? That’s an embarrassing error for a master fighter. I doubt it would happen with someone whose vision can scan across entire planets or observe the very atoms around us.
Whis clearly stated that Vegeta has gotten unruly and then he did that. Goku intentionally teleported the tree trunk there to take advantage of this. He mistook him for a tree trunk because the trunk was teleported. Regardless prior to that we see him punching and Goku using IT to avoid them. It was pretty clear cut. Mind you Vegeta can actually sense KI, which is far better to track opponents.
I didn’t expect clean sailing with this approach if I’m honest but I figured I should try this counter out in an actual DBZ debate for once. You’re not wrong that GT Goku had inconsistencies in his fighting though.
However regarding Cell you’re overlooking the element of surprise. Cell was still unaware of the Instant Transmission technique since it was not part of Goku’s DNA at the time it was collected by Gero. He was caught off guard by it allowing Goku to land a hit with his speed. Superman is used to fighting opponents with a variety of powersets and can plan a counter attack for them.
Superman won't be expecting it either. And Cell has seen the technique before just not in combat. It is used to through his opponents offguard, I doubt Superman would be expecting Goku to pop of right behind him. He can counter attacks but he can't really just predict what Goku is going to do. On the other hand though Goku would be able to do so considering what he did with Hit.
Also Cell did know about the technique the second time Goku used it during the Kamehame ha yet he still couldn't counter it. Sure the element of surprise was involved but I don't see why it wouldn't be applicable. Simply knowing Goku can use the technique isn't enough to suggest he will able to avoid it. Cell was also faster than Goku at the time which is not the case with Superman here.
Still, even assuming my IT counter no longer works, there is still the fact that Goku does not consistently use IT either. Based on the fights with Cell and Buu, he only used IT a couple of times. He didn’t use IT against Android 19 which would have been very useful in avoiding the Android’s energy absorption hands or against Majiin Vegeta where he knew that any damage done to him would be used as energy to revive Majiin Buu. Goku had learned IT in both fights yet did not use it. So Goku’s in character fighting style may prevent him from using IT at crucial moments when Superman attacks him. Goku’s superior speed alone is not fast enough to keep away from Superman.
Goku used IT when ever it was crucial. When the attack was going to kill him he IT because he knew he couldn't tank it. That never happened during his fight with the Android nor did it occur in the Majin Vegeta since neither really used Ki blasts in that battle.
However his two biggest fights since getting the techniques where his Buu and Cell fight where he used the attack multiple times. And yes you are right he isn't going to use it through out the fight, he will use it when it's most crucial. It's not like Goku can't tank Superman's punches either. He can tank most of Superman's regular punches. It' his strongest ones, most of which require a level of build up that Goku needs to avoid. That is when IT will come into play, at the very last minute, and possible using the opening to get a kamehameha in to take Superman out.
What I meant to say here is Superman can apply his intellect in combat in a way Goku cannot. Superman has a genius level intellect and has done things like calculated Shrapnel’s melting point mid battle or deduce enemy’s weaknesses whilst fighting them. In terms of pure combat smarts, Goku easily surpasses Superman but his lack of an education could allow Superman to surprise him in a way Goku as a dedicated martial artist wouldn’t expect Superman to fight.
I disagree with Goku being unable to deduce weakness whilst fighting. He has done so on multiple occasions. Another example was when he fought Tien who showed off his new Multi-Form. Goku was quickly able to figure out it's weakness when several other master Martial Artists hadn't. He then exploited two of Tien's weaknesses to win pretty quickly. GOku can detect weakness midst battle.
I agree on the intellect part of course, Goku does lack basic education. But I would say that his battles smarts are more important in a fight than Superman's superior Intellect.
I agreed to that with you privately and I’ll adhere to that agreement. Superman still has a way to suffocate Goku though. He can create a whirlwind to asphyxiate Goku instead like so
I highly doubt he would resort to this. While he is willing to kill he is still in character, and he would certainly not use this pretty early on, atleast it seems more like a last minute resort. Certainly in the cases that what seemed like. Also I would like to point that this tactic would leave him open, and allow Goku to fire kamehame ha at him while he attempts to suffocate Goku.
That said Goku does have means of deal with powerful winds. Goku himself can produce powerful blasts of wind through KIAI which was capable of pushing away both Jeice and Burter at the same time. This could certainly displace the tornado/hurricane that Superman creates. He could create a similar amount of force using his telekinesis as well.
Did Hit use pressure points on Goku in the manga though? And as a Super Saiyan before he used god ki? I know Hit used a pressure point on Goku’s heart in the anime but not in the manga. As for Tao, he may be more skilled than Clark but Superman has successfully used pressure points on enemies with superhuman stats such as Mongul II and a Kryptonian soldier. It’s possible then he can use them on Goku too.
Yes. I suppose I should point out that all of Hit's strikes are vital point strikes, he doesn't really use anything else, as his own strength doesn't seem to be all that great. Goku only tanked his attack once but he seemed to be able to get back from it. Infact he seemed to be able to have the same level of damage done or less than SSB Vegeta who while was at 10% is still stronger than base Goku.
And Superman using it on those two doesn't really make much of a difference. They haven't deal with pressure point users while Goku has. Also the whole point of pressure point attacks is get around an opponents durability. So them having Superman human stats should really change anything.
I would also like to point out that Goku has used pressure points attacks before. And he has been taught by Roshi who also uses pressure point attacks.
Whilst the Piccolo scan is undoubtedly impressive for Goku’s adaptability at fighting, I would point out that Goku has still been in trouble when fighting more powerful opponents than him. He was barely able to affect Frieza outside of a couple of techniques before attaining the Super Saiyan form and as stated in The Resurrection F saga of Super, Frieza had never trained a day in his life. He also had trouble against Kid Buu’s power, although I know the regeneration was the bigger problem. And Beerus was able to stomp SSJ3 Goku with just a finger flick and neck chop.
In those two of those instances the power gap was huge. Frieza was vastly stronger than anyone at that point including Goku. His skill actually helped keep up for a bit despite being outclassed in power, as his techniques did managed to hurt him. Beerus is arguable as skilled as Goku and is miles above SSJ3 Goku. He is even stronger SSG Goku mind you so the sheer gap in power is huge. Goku would have killed Buu instantly were it no for his regen. That was the only thing keeping him alive and what helped him last as long as he did. However Superman doesn't have anywhere near the regenerative abilities that Buu has. When Goku has fought opponent equal or similar in power to him skilled has helped. Like against Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta, Cell etc.
It is a problem exclusive to the Kaio-Ken transformation which won’t be used in this fight, however it is still an example of Goku quickly tiring out after overexerting his body and ki. Hence why I cited it as an example of Goku’s low stamina.
I suppose it is an example but one that is completely relevant since that form was basically obsolete by then end of DBZ.
It’s very clearly shown in the manga that Goku was nowhere near as powerful as he should have been. Piccolo says Goku as a Super Saiyan should be way more ‘staggering’ than he was in the fight against Android 19. Which implies that the heart virus was dampening Goku’s power in the Super Saiyan form. Prior to that, Piccolo also noted that Goku was rushing the battle and giving it everything he had immediately.
I never said it wasn't dampening his power. I just said it didn't heighten it since he it was clearly affecting him prior to that. Regardless though this doesn't really help your point regarding his lack of stamina since it was pretty clear here that it was the heart virus on top of the fact that the android was draining his energy.
Your second point depends on how much energy Goku was using in the fight with Frieza though. Plus, the Super Saiyan form is stated to put a strain on the body, both the manga and the anime confirm this. Moreover, Goku spending an entire year mastering the ROSAT is immediately undermined when Goku used his Kamehameha on Cell causing his energy level to plummet. That is a clear negative side effect.
That was after a long fight with Cell prior to that. And if Goku where to do that here, Superman would not survive so him losing stamina after it wouldn't matter with Superman dead. Mind you Gpku would later fire multiple kamehameha's as a SSJ3 and Gohan too being able to fire multiple planetary kamehameha's as and SSJ2.(The firest one and then the "solar system" one). And it's not like Superman is just going to regen when he get's hit by a concentrated kamehameha. he has often been KOed by this level of power so I see no reason why that wouldn't be the case here. Especially since Goku's kamehameha is above a regular planetary attack.
We don’t know how powerful those Kamehameha’s against Kid Buu were, you have no way of estimating Goku’s ki output with each one. One planetary Kamehameha is not going to knock Superman out based on what I have shown, in fact I believe it will drain Goku’s chi reserves significantly as shown whenever Goku charges up powerful attacks and fail to KO Clark. Thus Goku will be drained and Superman will have an easier time overpowering him.
Kamehameha's by SSJ's have been planetary since Buu Saga. Cell, Gohan and Goku were all firing planetary kamehameha's, the former two were doing it casually and both are inferior to SSJ3 Goku. And I disagree, Superman quite clearly has been KOed by planetary attacks. And they weren't concentrated planetary energy blasts directed completely at Superman like a kamehameha would be.
He had wasted a lot of his energy fighting Kid Buu and trying to destroy him hence when he tried to charge up his ki to perform a powerful attack, he failed to charge up enough ki and instead reverted to base form. I don’t see why the situation is different between the Kid Buu fight and any other use of the form.
That was after he fired multiple kamehameha's that would have killed any other opponent. He then spent time trying to charge up to create an even more powerful attack that would finally erase Buu. That is quite a bit of power that he needed to call which he simply couldn't. Also I would like point out that he had been fighting all day. First against SuperBuu on his own, then as Vegito. He then got absorbed escaped, was teleported to the Supreme Kai planet and then fought Kid Buu. He did get a senzu bean and wasn't healed.
Goku was tiring from the battle though and was clearly tired afterwards, stating that the Super Saiyan 3 I feel like you’ve ignored this crucial information in favour of a misinterpretation of what happens when Goku uses SSJ3. It is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. Just because he did well against Kid Buu does not negate how fatigued Goku was afterwards. I’m surprised you’re using the fight with Beerus as an example of the form’s ability to perform. Beerus beat SSJ3 Goku in record time and Goku stated in the anime he could only use that form for a short time. He only fought Beerus for a couple minutes at best, that won’t be enough time to beat Superman I assure you.
Look here is what happened during the fight. Goku first of wasn't fresh due to everything prior to that. However he still kept fighting Kid Buu doing well enough and firing off Kamehameha's at him. However Buu was simply regenerating every time from every attack. Yes he got tiered gradually over the fight, because he was firing off powerful attack that were having no effect at all due to regen. If Buu didn't have regen he would have been dead pretty quickly and the fight would have been over. Goku does have a stamina problem but that only becomes an issue after he fires too many powerful attacks that deplete him of his ki. But Superman doesn't have Buu's regen nor does he have the durability to tank multiple kamehameha's that Goku can fire before tiring. Mind you Goku's problem wasn't having enough energy, he just could charge up an attack strong enough to kill him. Which is a huge amount of power that resulted in him going back to base. However he doesn't need that here. Also considering the speed of our characters this may very well take a couple of minutes.( We are talking about two extremely powerful combatants that can fight is fractions of a second so this fight won't actually take long in real time. (I mean Goku's fight with Frieza technically occurred in just 5 minutes. Could have been hyperbole but it would make sense considering their speed)
Final Points(Why Goku wins)
- Goku by your own admission is a faster a when it comes to combat speed. Now it's not a big difference and Goku cannot blitz. However when you take into account Instant Transmission, Goku would be able to avoid Superman more powerful attacks. Especially those that require him to build momentum. Goku doesn't just tank and does avoid attacks he knows he can't tank.
- No I would actually their strength is pretty equal. Goku's King Kai punch is around what Superman has consistently been at. Goku may not have has many feats but he doesn't have anywhere near the number of appearances either. And Superman's best striking feat have required momentum which Goku doesn't need.
- Goku's durbaility is inferior no doubt. And Superman's powerful strike will likely end up doing serious damage. However that's when Instant transmission comes in to help Goku avoid these blows rather than simply tank them.
- By your admission, Superman has never really used lobotomy as a method, using Injustice Superman as an example doesn't work imo. He isn't just a superman willing to kill, he is basically evil which Superman isn't. Even when Superman has been willing to kill he hasn't resorted to this. While his other "hax" methods like suffocation can be counted by Goku as already discussed.
- I still believe Goku can kill or atleast knock out Superman with a super kamehameha. His Kamehameha's are stronger than just a regular planetary attacks and are concentrated on to superman lather than just a large explosion, where only a portion actually hits the character. I do think just one from an SSJ3 GOku should be enouhg, and he will use it considering he is willing to kill here.
Do you guys want to add this on the voting section for TDD next week? It's been a while since EmperorThanos added this one so it won't hurt if we add it again, especially because you guys put a lot of effort into this debate. Either way, congrats and good luck. Also I don't want to get involved but I see few biased users on this thread, towards both Superman and DBZ, so watch out for that. Just a friendly advice.
Yeah please put it there. Also pm us which uses you think we should be cautious about.
@emperorthanos: You're ready to open this up for votes then? Then that's fine with me, let's get tagging!
Ok cool will edit the thread.
Voting on our Superman vs Goku CAV is now open!
Tagged Voters List
There is a lot of clutter on the thread so here are all the post together courtesy of @lvenger.
Round 2: Counters
Round 3: Counters
Round 4: Conclusions
I read only the scenario so far and it will be a tie with both characters die in the first few minutes or superman stomp
There is no atmosphere on this planet so no air
Both characters need air to survive and will die in few minutes without breathing
Some versions of superman don't need air so if we use one of those versions, he stomp
I know I am not supposed to give my opinion on over people cav, but this is what will happen lol
I don't feel like making a massive voting post, if you need further explanation, just ask me and i will provide it at a later point. But, for now.
I vote for LVenger.
The main thing that did it for me was the fact that his debating was a lot more precise than ET's. From everything we have seen, Goku can survive Superman's hits, Superman can survive Goku's. They are similar in speed with Goku being a bit faster. Similar in striking power, but Superman being stronger. And so on. Very equal, but LVenger did one very important thing. He presented a case for Superman winning to which the only thing ET could say is "Let's hope Superman doesn't do it" by citing that it would be out of character. But killing is out of character and you allowed it in this debate. So i can totally see Superman doing to Goku what he did to Parasite.
To explain why i voted like this in the end: Both of you debated perfectly, both characters seem pretty equal from the standpoint of what was shown in this debate, so, out of ten fights, both get 5 wins. Except for that 1-in-a-hundred situation where Superman uses one of the tactics Goku doesn't have a reply to and takes a very slight majority.
Gj to both of you.
However i felt that Emperor Thanos let Lvenger get away with too many arguments that could have easily been countered(like Goku not firing off planetary attacks consistently)etc.
I also felt that EmperorThanos could have proved Gokus superiority by other means(such as a canonical statement that puts Cell at solar system level etc.)
He also didn't argue Goku's energy projection(his main key to victory) hard enough and could have gone a lot further than "Goku is planet level".
All-in-all i feel like Lvenger used his characters feats better, where as EmperorThanos didn't use powerscaling to its full extent.
Lvenger pushed the debate more in his favor and Thanos kinda lowballed his own character, which is why i think Lvenger won this debate and he gets my vote.
@emperorthanos: You don't have to count his vote though if he's going to be stubborn about not giving and expanding on sound, valid and legitimate reasons for his vote, right?
Yeah of course. Me and Lvenger are in a p so we will be deciding which votes are going to be counted
I think that the links on post #176 are off, or at least for me. They only send me to the first page of the thread (?)
As for the vote, I'll have to read through it again, so I'll do it then XD.
Yeah that seems to be the case with me as well. But the links are all fine so I don't know what the issue is.
Both of you represented your characters with high detail and quality, Emperor kept "power scalling" to a minimal within this debate which is understandable. While Ivenger I would agree did held up his side of the argument within Strength, Durability and Intelligence. Emperor was able to demonstrate that his advantages held greater significant advantages over the man of steel.
Emperor despite loosing the arguments within Durability and Strength was always able to come back with a strong counter and developed advantages which Goku does naturally process over the man of steel that being skill and experience, Although Ivenger did make some good points suggesting Supes is no slouch when it comes to this topic, Emperor was able to establish that Goku's skills from training and experiences for Decades gave him a major advantage within this category.
Both of you guys gave valid arguments within each category (strength, speed, durability), Although the reason I'm giving this to Emperor is due to being able to keep up with Ivenger against his arguments with Durability and Strength.
Although Emperor could've done a bit better with Goku's argument being his energy manipulation, He was still able to give a reasonable argument suggesting "Goku's energy manipulation can match supes durability"
As well as Emperor gave valid points that suggested Goku's battle tactics, evasive skills and martial arts would allow him to turn the fight into his favor combined with IT, and superior speed. Emperor was able to match almost every argument with Ivenger of the exception of Durability and Strength.
As for this, My vote goes to @emperorthanos, though this was a very close debate and I'm so glad both of guys put in so much work into this it's really hard to have a serious debate about this and throughout all these years we've never been given one on the Vine until now you guys are the best.
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