CaV: Superman(Lvenger) vs Goku(Emperorthanos)(Voting Closed)

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#101 Posted by emperorthanos- (16779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Just been busy with Uni right now. But I have next week free so I should get a post then.

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#102 Edited by Lvenger (36344 posts) - - Show Bio
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#103 Posted by CRUSHYOURENEMIES (2595 posts) - - Show Bio

there is already a clear winner here.

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#104 Posted by GShoweringDon (34 posts) - - Show Bio

there is already a clear winner here.

Seems like one of those cases where the better debater gets away with logical fallacies because his opponent doesn't squash 'em hard enough.

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#105 Posted by emperorthanos- (16779 posts) - - Show Bio

there is already a clear winner here.

PM who and why. I'm interested.

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#106 Posted by CRUSHYOURENEMIES (2595 posts) - - Show Bio

@crushyourenemies said:

there is already a clear winner here.

Seems like one of those cases where the better debater gets away with logical fallacies because his opponent doesn't squash 'em hard enough.

maybe. that's still on the opponent's fault.

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#107 Edited by Lvenger (36344 posts) - - Show Bio
@crushyourenemies said:

there is already a clear winner here.

Could you PM me as well separately? I'd like to hear who and why too.

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#108 Edited by emperorthanos- (16779 posts) - - Show Bio
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Counters

Strength

Considering that list includes Wonder Woman, Green Lanterns, Wraith and even Doomsday, I would say there are than a few that can compare to Frieza in terms of durability. Comic book levels of durability tend to be more impressive than DBZ durability.

Wraith has never shown Frieza level durability. Though I will admit the Green lanterns have similar level of feats and Doomsday too, but I don't recall Diana having something similar.

I agree with your later point, However Frieza is the on exception to that. Atleast by feats such has tanking the Spirit bomb or surviving the destruction of planet with no power at all.

No but he can emit and fire ki energy from his hands in several different ways. And unless DBZ characters can use other forms of energy now, that must mean Frieza has a level of ki control to do that. Even if it's only on the physical level.

I can understand where you're coming from with what Nappa did to Gohan's blast but Frieza sending Gohan's blast away did not look like a physical feat in the least. Moreover, since ki blasts are not as physically solid, that still means an element of ki control is necessary to manipulate and control those blasts. You can't expect me to believe that anyone can touch them as long as they're strong enough, it just does not appear to be presented that way.

Well he can amplify his physical with ki of course. Which is common with every other DBZ character. But that still shows how hard he would be able to hit someone.

It's not completely devoid of ki. All of Frieza's attacks use ki whether they are in the form of blasts or in the form of punches or kicks. Same with Goku and every other DB character. All their strength, speed, durbaility comes from it. Frieza clearly just kicked that blast, Piccolo himself said that. That seems far more likely to have happened than Frieza being able to redirect ki purely though his ki manip when he couldn't tell how powerful the blasts was. Not anyone can just touch them, but considering all of Frieza's physical attack use ki there is no reason he can't

course, Frieza was stated to have no energy left evidently but that doesn't remove his own natural durability which was implied to be greater than Goku's due to his physiology. I'm also not sure where it's stated ki increases durability, does Goku mention that when he's talking about the Kaio Ken? Goku drawing blood from Frieza at 100% power is still a good feat obviously, but I think Goku mentioned Frieza using 100% of his power had a negative effect on his body akin to anaerobic exercise or fatigue. So Frieza operating at 100% had its definite drawbacks.

I never said it removes his own natural durability but hurting Frieza at one percent is a lot easier than hurting him at 100%. I'm not scaling Goku's durability here. I'm just showing how hard he punches. I can't give you an exact chapter but I can give you examples. One has recently as the infamous laser incident during the ROF saga. Goku turns back into base and drops his ki allowing Sorbet to take him out with a common laser. And yes Goku did state that. But the moment Frieza Ki had dropped to point where he wasn't a challenge Goku just stopped fighting. So until this Frieza was still a threat to SSJ Goku. It was similar to the Golden Frieza form.

No worries, Earth Man had duplicated all of the Legion of Super Heroes' powers. This included heroes like Ultraa and Blok, both of whom have superhuman physicals on Superman's level. Basically his power duplication enabled him to stack those powers on top of each other. It's more impressive than him 3 shotting Mongul or one shotting Ultraman IMO. But I have better feats to show as do you.

Fair enough this is more impressive that I initially thought. But not more impressive than what Goku has done.

Thought you might find it a bit more impressive. Superman's bullrush blitzes are going to do heavy damage to Goku and combined with his speed, Goku isn't always going to use Instant Transmission to get out of the way like he did with Vegeta. He occasionally takes opponents head on like he did with Botamo or Frost without using this technique. At the very least he's not going to use Instant Transmission at the start of the fight even with basic knowledge, which gives Superman's bullrush the chance to do damage.

Well in regards to Botamo. There was never really no threat there. And his raw speed was more than enough. And Frost never came full speed bullrushing at him like superman does. If Superman is coming at him from a mile away bullrushing at top speeds. Goku can easily avoid it. He doesn't necessarily need to use instant transmission to do so. Goku with basic knowledge will be aware that his opponents strikes aren't some he can casually tank with ease.

Goku will not use at the start of the fight but he really wouldn't need to. He is starting the fight as an SSJ3 and Superman isn't going to use a full powered bullrush right from the start. I really only the moon level bullrushes doing significant to SSJ3 Goku.

Well he did contain Imperiex's power during that event so he did operate at those levels later on. The JLA during the Imperiex War was Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, Wally West and Plastic Man. So it was several of the League's most powerful members fighting the Imperiex Probes.

Well that is indeed a powerful line up. None of those character really operate on planetary level. Infact aside from J'onn none them can be considiered moon busters and with J'onn it would require scaling (though I'm really in no position to criticize that).

It's unclear how much more powerful they were than Frieza because DBZ had dropped power levels by then but yeah, they were more powerful than Frieza, that cannot be denied.

Well yeah we don't have numbers but it's pretty obvious that they are on much higher level than Frieza considering how they were manhandling multiple characters above SSJ Goku.

But Superman has some equally impressive one shots on similarly powerful characters. In Action Comics #793, Superman destroys a construct made by Kyle Rayner in a single blow. This is before Superman flew to the sun and got slightly sundipped for the record so there were no amps when Superman broke Kyle's construct. Also, in Adventures of Superman #642, Superman busts John Stewart's construct in one blow, the force of his punch overpowering John's willpower.

Breaking constructs are impressive but are still unquantifiable. Not every construct made by Kyle is as durable as the other. This applies to Jon as well. their constructs have been broken several times by characters weaker than Superman. The Jon feat has a little more weight to it. But you can't really say he was using ring exceeding amounts of willpower against his mind controlled friend. Atleast not in the same was he would have used when trying to recreate Xanshi considering his history with it's destruction.

I don't think Recoome tanked the same amount of force he put from his Eraser Gun just because Krillin kicked his head. And that blast didn't really warp the planet at all, it only destroyed an area the size of a couple of Namek's islands. Not to mention Namek is bigger than Earth IIRC so there's no way Recoome's attack warped a planet that size. Plus as you've said characters from the Frieza saga got more and more durable so Recoome's durability should be pitiful next to them. But Goku one shotting him is decent I suppose.

Maybe not the most impressive feat. Especially since I can bring up better ones But Recoome does have proven durability and doesn't require as much scaling as others. Though I have already shown far superior feats such making Frieza bleed and Gohan stomping the Cell Jr's.

Pretty impressive I must say. But Superman has sent some powerful beings flying from his strikes. Take Superman Unchained #8 where Superman punches Wraith from the Earth to the moon and then through the moon itself. Wraith only managed to stop Superman's attack by emitting Kryptonite radiation

The distance between the Earth and the Moon is 238,900 miles, large enough to fit every planet in the Solar System. And the circumference of the Moon is 6,783 miles. So Superman punching a more powerful and thus durable being that far is particularly noteworthy. Goku would not fare better than Wraith from those punches, both because of his inability to survive in a vacuum and his durability.

I will concede that Goku doesn't really have many feats of this level. He really has only the one feat on King Kai's planet. Which TBh is still superior to this.

I figured you'd bring this up sooner or later. I concede Goku punching a hole through King Kai's planet is the striking feat that will give Superman the most grief. However, Superman has much more impressive durability feats that will enable him to resist such a punch. I'll discuss those later though. For now I'll move onto Superman's best striking feats for comparison. Superman has punched H'El hard enough that the force of his blows were felt in Dr Veritas' laboratory in the core of the Earth to the Watchtower in the farrest edges of Earth's atmosphere (Superman #17)

While this is an impressive feat. You have to take into account what happen right before that. Superman just didn't do it on the fly the way Goku did. Goku just threw a punch at Beerus, which missed and then blew a howl through King Kai's planet. In Superman's case, he had time to gain momentum while flying form spaces as H'el fought Wonder Woman and Superboy. Then surprised attacked him.

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While it being s surprise attack doesn't take anything away from the feat. The fact that he had to cross a great distance does. Goku on the other hand can use a powerful instantly has an SSJ3. Yes it takes effort but he can do it quickly.

But I can sense I'll need something more destructive to counter Goku's SSJ3 punch so I'll show my hand of Superman's moon busting feats. First up is Superman splitting a small moon of Saturn in half (Superman: Lex 2000)

The feat is clear cut. Superman sliced the moon. There is not much to say about it except that slicing up a small moon on Saturn wouldn't require as much force as splitting Earth's Moon. Aside from Titan, all the other moon on Saturn are smaller than Earth's. . And seeing how it specifies that it is a small moon of Saturn, I think it's safe to say it is definitely not Titan and one of the smaller ones. And since the second largest is Rhea that is around 44% diameter of Earth's moon.

Secondly, Superman has cracked half of the Earth's moon when the indirect shockwave from his punch rebounded off the Black Racer (Superman: The Man of Steel #116)

I'm not too sure what's going on here. He seems to attack the black racer then get's blasted away. I guess Black Racers rebounds attacks

Lastly, Superman has his infamous shadow moon feat when he destroyed the shadow moon whilst moving at just under the speed of light (Justice League of America #30)

To those DBZ fans reading who would only treat it the same as Master Roshi's Kamehameha on the moon, the Shadow Moon had the exact same mass as the real moon stated on panel (whereas the mass is not stated in DBZ) and was travelling at 7,614,000 km per hour, or 4,731,120 mph. And yes although Superman was knocked out afterwards, the shadow moon was composed of unstable dark matter along with travelling at millions of miles per hour so the velocity and explosion was greater than normal. Lastly, although it is a bullrush, its physical destructive output is easily equal to, if not greater than Goku's SSJ3 punch.

I can admit this is comparable to Goku's punch in terms of destructive output. But it still required Superman to fly at near light speed across a large distance to destroy the moon. And just like the punch against H'el. I don't think Superman could do the same when the distance is only a couple of meters apart at most. Nor would Goku just stay in a single place to allow himself to get hit. Goku on the other hand just needs to do this.

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I think overall they are comparable in strength based of the feats shown. Only difference is that Superman's best feat does require him to bullrush someone across a large distance. Goku on the other can just Throw a powerful punch that packs the same amount of power.

While GOku can't really tanks Supermans powerful bull rush, If you combine his speed advantage, instant transmission and the fact that Superman can't just bullrush with that amount of power across a couple of meters, Goku should be able to avoid his powerful bullrush attacks.

Speed

I'm curious as to why Krillin and Roshi's fight is what makes Goku and Vegeta's fight in a heartbeat consistent. Anyway, I don't agree with a heartbeat fight being a relativistic or lightspeed feat.

I never said it was a light speed feat. I was just throwing in there in the opener to show how Goku's speed has progressed. Anyway as to why Krillin's and Roshi's fight makes it consistent. This is what Roshi and Krillin were capable of doing during a very early stage in dragon ball. I don't think I need to tell just how big the difference in power is between these two and Goku and Vegeta.

Here is the fight between Krillin and Roshi that happened in a fraction of a second. Faster than anyone could see. They were able to fight, think of plan and play rock paper scissors faster than anyone could see.

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If Roshi and Krillin can do this at power level of around 100. Goku and Vegeta having full on fight in a heartbeat is very consistent.

You can at least prove characters on Cell's level can fire Kamehamehas FTL since there are respective speed feats to go along with this idea. But DB and Saiyan Saga characters being at that level seemed a bit off to me at least since we never saw them dodge such attacks. I can accept Goku dodging Cell's Kamehameha as a FTL on that basis in exchange.

Fair enough. I think we have come to an agreement that at least by the time we reach Cell Saga Goku reached FTL speeds in combat and reactions speed. There is really no need to discuss earlier feats.

Because Goku as a SSJ2 was stated to be stronger than Gohan when he fought Cell and SSJ3 is a level above that etc. I have the gist of it. I can't say I'm a fan of this approach but the power scaling is at least supported in the manga. However, even assuming Goku can fire Kamehamehas at FTL speeds, Superman does have a way to avoid such attacks completely even if he lacked the speed to evade it or the durability to tank it.

Well I'm not using Fan made powerlevels or anything. At the very least Goku as an SSJ3 should be able to fire a kamehameha at the same speed as Gohan as an SSJ2. 'm not going to argue that he fire this many times faster or anything. Just that he should be able to fire a kamehameha at FTL speeds the same way Gohan did.

But being FTL would enable one to keep up with Goku's speed and Superman does have several FTL combat speed blitzes. He's blitzed New 52 Doomsday to Venus whilst trading blows along the way (Superman: Doomed #1) It takes light 6 minutes to reach Venus yet Superman was able to fly and trade blows with Doomsday in the span of a few thoughts.

He wasn't trading blows here form what I see. Atleast not until he entered Venus. Until then he was just flying or I guess bullrushing Doomsday to venus while Doomsday was the actually hitting him. This is an FTL feat but not really a combat one.

He's blitzed Darkseid from Earth to the sun in a few minutes (Superman/Batman #13) Light takes 8.5 minutes to travel between the Earth and the sun and Superman had already flown Darkseid to the edge of the sun in less than that time.

This is an FTL feat like the previous one but this more of a travel feat. Superman can't exactly throw punches at such speeds. He can certainly do so in terms of flight and bullrush people but that doesn't mean he punches at FTl speeds. Goku on the other hand was deflecting light speed beams with his arms which would mean he could moves his arms at such speedswhich in turn would mean he can punch people at that level of speed.

Also Darkseid and New 52 Doomsday not nearly as fast Goku even as a SSJ let alone in as a SSJ3 to allow something like this. He would most certainly avoid can bullrushed out of the planet. Though Superman resorting to this would break the BFR rule in place.

In JLA #63, Superman blitzes a ship travelling towards Earth at 'extra saturated lightspeeds' according to Kyle Rayner's ring. A poor choice of words, but the implication is clearly that the ship is moving at FTL speeds. Superman was able to blitz the ship before it hit the Earth, whilst detecting that there was no life on board and targeting anything that looked like an engine. So this shows FTL perceptions as well as FTL combat speed.

Firstly I don't think there was any doubt on him having FTL perceptions. But it's whether he is capable of moving limbs at that same speed is the equestions. I guess this would be a good indication of FTL combat speed for Superman. Though it is a little vague. He does destroy the engines but he could have just bullrushed them.

He was using heat vision on her and struggling during the blitz which indicates FTL on both speed and perceptions. I've already mentioned how fast light travels from the sun to the Earth in the Darkseid example but this time we have quantifiable measurements given in the comic. This is because Maxwell Lord tracked their fight via Brother Eye. He confirmed it took 1 minute and 52 seconds from the start of the fight to the end.

That's 9.4 billion km per hour or 5.9 billion mph at least for Superman to get to the sun and back in less than 2 minutes and then continue the fight again. I've already agreed Goku is the faster of the two but Superman is now clearly shown to be no slouch in the combat speed department.

Well I can admit this does display speed on the level at which Goku's feats are on. And I agree Superman is no slouch in the speed department. Goku will certainly not blitz him like he does to other opponents. But with the combination of instant transmission and speed. He will be able to avoid Superman's attack that do take time. Such as his bullrushes. If Goku see him charging Goku isn't most certainly going to avoid even if it requires the use of Instant Transmission. Goku doesn't really take attacks head on.

heres is another example of Goku using instant transmissions at the last minute to avoid and attack. This against a blast fired by Buu. Goku was able to dodge the attack at the last minuete using instant transmission and then get a hit on Buu from behind.

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Superman is also several times faster than lightning, hell even at his Pre DOS/early Post Crisis power levels, he still easily reacted to lightning.

But of course Kid Goku was trained to move faster than lightning in Dragon Ball is what you'll say in response.

My point really wasn't to say that they was faster than Superman(They aren't) But their certainly faster than several of the people you showed speed blitzing. Which was mainly my point. That the majority of characters Goku are extremely fast. Lightening time doesn't mean much to either of our characters TBH. I don't really I think I need to show kid Goku's feat.

I don't see Android 19 or 20 being on par with Frieza myself. Both were largely unimpressive in terms of their physicals and energy projection, it was their energy absorption which allowed them to pose more than a minor threat to the Z Fighters at their current levels. Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan to fight them seemed to be more going overkill than needing to transform. They thought they were the Androids that killed them in the future after all. I also see that Dr Gero states that Goku's power increase is far above his calculated data and that Android 19 would be defeated before he could absorb Goku's power.

I wouldn't consider it an overkill that they need to resort to SSJ. Vegeta likely did it to show off. But Goku most certainly required SSJ To bltiz him, otherwise he wouldn't have transformed. This is GOku we are talking about after all so if he doesn't need to go all out he wont. That should be a strong enough indication that the androids were above his base form atleast which is where Goku's FTL feats really come from.

Given that Fat Buu was often childlike and playful even before he separated from his evil half, and his regeneration being the best in DBZ, it can be argued that often kept Buu from utilising his speed as effectively as other DBZ characters. I would need to see Fat Buu's speed feats for consideration since I'm not as familiar with his feats as I am with other DBZ characters.

I will gladly display what he can do. Buu maybe childish but it didn't take away from he fact on how powerful he was. First and foremost here is a showing of him being able to blitz adult Gohan in SSJ2 form. While adult Gohan wasn't as fast as his teen self due to a drop in power. He was still extremely powerful and fast and is most certainly FTL. Yet was child's play to Buu

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He did this on a second occasion alter on when he was able to blast Gohan away before Gohan could punch him.

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Several of those people Superman was shown blitzing were nearly, if not equally as fast as him such as Maxima and Wonder Woman. And with feats of Superman blitzing people at FTL speeds now, that should provide further evidence that Superman does have the ability to keep Goku on his toes so Goku will not be outclassing Superman with his speed.

I don't think Wonder Woman nor Maxima are as fast as Superman. Maxima was faster than him early on but that was a far weaker incarnation that one with most of the FTL feats. Wonder Woman is certainly fast but I don't think Superman has ever really blitzed her in a fight. There was that instance you posted by they weren't really in combat there. Also it has been mentioned in the past that it is Wonder Woman's skill that has made her comparable to him not just raw speed.

If they don't count as helpful against Goku, perhaps Superman tracking lightspeed signals (Superman #653) and perceiving photons (JLA: Heaven's Ladder) which move at lightspeed,if not possibly FTL speeds would be more useful.

Fair enough. Superman would be able to track Goku's movements.

Well there isn't stopping Goku from using Instant Transmission on Superman as far as I can tell. However, Vegeta lacks Superman's extrasensory powers and hearing to properly counter Goku's IT technique. I believe Superman has the means to develop a counter for Instant Transmission mid battle once he sees Goku show it off. Now my strategy is based on the anime, and Dragon Ball GT at that, but I may as well be honest about where I got the idea from. I can still justify its use with the manga only rule for our debate.

Senses didn't really have any part of that instance. Vegeta knew exactly where he was at each moment. And he knew where to punch, so that wasn't the problem atleast for vegeta. He just wasn't able to punch fast enough to hit Goku. And this Vegeta is most certainly Superman's equal in speed if not faster considering you have admitted that Goku has an edge here.

During the SSJ4 Goku vs Super Android 17 fight, 17 was able to predict and counter Goku's use of Instant Transmission because he could sense the vibrations in the atmosphere at the point of re-entry (In case I haven't copied the video link right, the bit I'm talking about is at 7:29)

Now citing DBGT of all things in the first places brings up it's own issues. GT was just full of non sense. To prove my point Goku kept teleporting at from distance away instead of right infront or behind him as he has done in the past. Note that super 17 only tags him once Goku starts moving in and giving him enough time to act.

For example against Cell who too is an android and should be able to do the exact same thing. Goku teleported right behind him and punched him. Not even having to move an inch forward. Cell clearly new where he was and could hear him but that didn't save him.

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Superman is also attuned to and able to sense vibrations as he explained to Darkseid about the worlds of the Multiverse's vibrations before he cancelled out Darkseid's vibrations (Final Crisis #7) And in case anyone (not you ET) really thinks I'm using this as proof Superman can beat Goku by singing, trust me I'm not. This is just about Superman sensing vibrations.

This is not out of the realm of what DBZ characters can do. Goku himself can sense the flow of air currents to sense someone. He does here against Yakon in planet which was completely dark and Goku couldn't see a single thing. Cell who has his DNA should also be able to do this. While Vegeta likely can too if Goku is able to.

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Sure I've gotten creative with my strategy but you could still argue that Superman hasn't countered anyone with teleportation. Not so, Superman has countered Ruin's teleportation by recognising the sound of his tubes working harder when he teleported.

Lastly for this counter, Goku's Instant Transmission has a sound effect of "biii" in the Super manga and "fft" in the DBZ manga indicating it does make a sound in the manga. So IT does make a sound in the manga. Since Superman has the super hearing precise enough to identify that sound and the strategic mind to develop this counter strategy in mid battle as he has done before, I do not believe it is a stretch for Superman to start predicting and countering Goku's use of Instant Transmission.

If you look at the Cell scan, Cell to could hear Goku and knew he was there. But that still didn't save him from getting hit. Vegeta could predict where Goku was going to be but still couldn't hit him until he turned ssb to be fast enough.

Also this still won't help against Goku using Instant Transmission to avoid attacks. Super 17 could only tag him when Goku came at him after teleporting. Avoiding attacks like he did against Cell's kamehameha and Vegeta's punches are still something Superman can't combat.

Just knowing where Goku is, is not enough. Super 17 was already faster than Goku, and GT Goku was acting like and Idiot. And I have shown that in canon there are two instnaces of where the person knew where Goku was but still couldn't do anything about it. I think that should atleast discount the noncanon example used here.

Durability

Goku's intability to breath in space is a factor but I strongly believe in the validity of evidence shown in both the manga and anime that Goku cannot survive a planet busting attack on his own durability. As I said, there have been 3 occasions when Goku has either escaped from, or been killed by planet busting attacks.

  1. Goku cries out in rage when he can't escape from Namek just before the planet blows. If it hadn't been for the escape pod, he would have died on Namek.
  2. Goku is outright killed by Semi Perfect Cell's explosion at point blank range meant to blow up the Earth that destroys King Kai's planet.
  3. Goku rushes to escape from Earth with Vegeta before Kid Buu blows it up with his planet busting attack.

The last two certainly don't specify a lack of oxygen as the reason for why Goku was killed or was rushing to escape. By Goku's own durability, he has died to planet busting attacks where Frieza has survived them. It is only fair to measure planetary based on how each character has fared on panel. And that logically means Frieza is more durable than Goku.

Well the first one was clearly about his breath. Frieza had explicitly pointed out earlier.

In the latter two cases it need not mean that oxygen wasn't involved. Also I would also need to mention that in both cases that these attacks were clearly not ordinary planet busting attacks either. Cell's explosons is clearly a lot more power than any of Frieza's blast would be.

While Kid Buu's attacks for sure wasn't just a standard planetary attack. GOku states that they couldn't deflect it even though a moment ago Vegeta had casually deflected a planetary attack from Kid Buu. This clearly implies that Kid Buu's second planet busting attack was far more powerful than the first (The anime states it could have blown up the earth 10 times over). So this blast being able to kill Goku doesn't really take away from the fact that he is capable of tanking planetary energy attacks.

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Even Superman tanking collateral planet explosions shows much better durability than Goku (Superman: War of the Supermen #1 and Superman #37)

I have now doubt that Superman has better durability. This is probably the one advantage over him. But Goku's energy manip will most certainly over come him.

That single blast was charged up for a period of time and able to destoy the core of Planet Vegeta unlike Frieza's blast on Namek's core. But in that case Frieza was contradicting himself when he said he held back his power and he somehow isn't a planet buster in his Final Form. Your argument falls into a logical pitfall this way, if Frieza could blow up the planet why didn't he just do so? I'm not saying Frieza isn't a planet buster to be clear, but I am saying Frieza's use of planetary energy beams does not seem to add up. Furthermore, Frieza's energy beams didn't appear to have planetary range when he fired them on Goku.

Frieza held back because he was afraid of being caught up in the explosion. In all honestly I could really argue it being PIS for him not blowing up the planet there. COnsidering we know he can survive planetary explosions. And I'm not every single ki blast used by Frieza against Goku was planetary. But in that instant I posted Frieza was clearly blasting Goku with everything he had. The blasts were fired in the air and didn't touch the ground either.

This is the first I've head of the Supreme Kai's planet being a tenth of the universe. Is there any confirmation for that being the case?

Well i would have to find the exact quote in the dazenshuu. Though I was mistaken in what I said earlier, it is the entire realm the that is 1/10th the universe not the just planet so my apologies on that part. Though my point still stands as the planet is still extremely large. There is an official image that depicts the size of the planet.

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The realm can be seen circling around the universe with is just the bottom half of the globe. The planet can be seen in the middle and is about the same size as the start surrounding it. Moreover the fact that the planet can be seen from this far out of a view should indicate how big it is. Even when comparing it to size of the universe next to it. The planet is clearly much larger than earth even if we lowball and say it is just the size of a sun. Which is why it didn't just get destroyed as a result of their attacks.

Despite my disagreements with what you're saying, you're holding to the energy durability side of the debate commendably. Nonetheless, I still don't think Goku's energy durability is what it's cracked up to be and additionally Superman's heat vision is also a temperature kind of attack, and Goku hasn't fared that well against lava, both in DBZ and Super. It's not destructive power that will enable Superman to harm Goku with heat vision, it's Goku's vulnerability to heat related attacks. Wonder Woman is durable enough to casually bathe in lava (something Goku can't do without a ki shield) and tank nukes to the face unscathed.

Yet Superman can easily burn her with his heat vision in their fights (Wonder Woman #175 and Wonder Woman #219)

Well thank you. And I will say that even if we say Goku doesn't have planetary durability in terms of damage output. He has still tanked attacks that cause more destruction than what Superman can do with heat vision.

Now onto heat. Goku;s vulnerability to heat attacks is only really present in the anime. there is no instance in the manga were Goku is weak the heat based attacks. There are a couple of instances where Goku was able to take heat equivalent to lava. One instance was when he came into direct contact with the rocket engine of General Blues rocket. Goku to the blast head on and survived fine. Rocket engines can reach heat of 1000 degrees(Celsius)

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He also survived being hit by by flamethrower head on by pilaf's robot suit thing.

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On top of that Goku surviving being in the middle of an island level blast. The sheer heat from the explosions a blast like that would certainly be immense. And Goku was right in the middle of it and took it head on. Him being weak to lava is just an inconsistency brought up in the anime.

I know Goku has better TK feats than that, that one's not going to get him out of Superman's freeze breath when it can incapacitate Bizarro.

Well yeah he does have better TK than that. Though there is a difference between the two. Bizarro was incapacitated because his muscle were restricted so he couldn't muster any strength to break it. Goku just needs to stare at a portion of ice and break out of it. He was able to match Frieza in TK who was capable of destroying hills b just staring at them.

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However Goku could probably just get out by using an aoe blast around him or just charging up. He was able to shake the entire earth just by charging up. He did this on purepose as well as he was stalling for time. We see later that he can transform in an SSJ3 quickly if he wanted to.

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Ice is really not going to be an issue.

Energy Manip vs Superman Durability

Goku has only used such attacks when the situation calls for it. We never specified whether Goku or Superman know the planet they're fighting on is indestructible so technically Goku is still likely to avoid using planetary attacks because he doesn't want to die in the explosion or suffocate in the vacuum of space.

But I wouldn't be arguing for Superman if I didn't think he was a major threat to Goku. And since I think he definitely is, Goku would therefore be willing to treat him as a threat and use planetary attacks eventually. Nonetheless, Superman has the durability to stand up to these attacks.

Well the will most certainly require Goku to use a planetary attack. Superman has the better durability than any other opponent he has faced so far. So if Goku is willing to resort to it And Ok even if Goku doesn't know the planet they are fighting on is indestructible, that has never stopped him before like against Cell. As I said he is going to spam planetary attacks or use them from t he get go. Just like how Superman is going to use moon busting bullrushes from the get go. However Goku will use this level of power once he realizes he has too.

So you're saying the different type type of ki techniques is why Piccolo didn't have access to such an attack just to be clear?

That is one of the reasons why he never displayed moon busting power. Like I said the kamehameha allow them to focus their energy at a single point. Something Piccolo couldn't do.

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However that isn't the only reason as to why Piccolo didn't that level of power. He was still extremely tired as he had gone through a difficult fight with Goku.

Also Piccolo during early saiyan saga wasn't much stronger than before. Infact all he had was a new technique. Yet this Piccolo was still able to blow up the moon himself.

This isn't including the anime so I can't point out the explosion that happened afterwards. Even so, the blast is not shown shooting up into space like Vegeta's Final Flash or Goku's Kaio Ken Kamehameha. There must have been some direct contact with the planet based on the damage to the surrounding area.

I know Goku teleported down so he didn't fire the beam from the sky onto the planet but for that attack to have done that much damage to Cell, it was obviously powerful as you've been arguing it to be. And surprise was also a factor since Cell was expecting Vegeta's Final Flash but not Goku's Kamehameha.

Even if it did touch the planet. It at best grazed. Pretty much everyone around could tell the blast was planetary. While the instant transmission was to take Cell by surprise it was also to ensure Goku didn't the planet with his blast.

Either way based of the damage he did to cell, the blast certainly was planetary. Even if it wasn't necessarily stronger than Vegeta's.

It did hit Cell head on but Vegeta had goaded Cell into staying where he was as a test of strength. And Cell still managed to move out of the way slightly when he realised Vegeta's Final Flash was more powerful than expected. The success of Goku's attack came mainly down to the surprise of him using Instant Transmission as well which Cell was not expecting.

the surprise aspect shouldn't have changed much. Atleast in this context Cell was prepared to get hit by a planetary attack. the only thing that changed was that Goku teleported in front of him. He was still going at full power during his fight with Goku whilst against Vegeta he had been holding his back.

Plus aside from the visible damage done to Cell. there is the fact that Cell had lost a large amount of energy after tanking Goku's attack whilst there was no mentiona of him losing energy after getting hit by Vegeta's final flash. This can't all be due to just Goku teleporting in front of Cell.

I still think it's debatable, Vegeta's Final Flash had a larger AOE, only grazed Cell and shot off far into space whereas Goku's Kamehameha is considered more powerful to you based on what damage it did to Cell.

Well yeah I'm basing it off the amount of damage it did to Cell. I don't really see AOE as a measure of how powerful the attacks where. If anything it should show that GOku has better control of his blasts. And Cell tanked both head on. One clearly did more damage to him and caused him to lose alot more ki than the other. Cell was still holding back in his fight with Vegeta while this was not the case in his fight with Goku. Plus we know for a fact that Goku was superior to Vegeta. Vegeta was even astonished by Goku's power when he just displayed half of it. It's logical that Goku's most powerful attack is greater than Vegeta's

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  1. Goku saying he is far more advanced than Vegeta.
  2. Vegeta after sensing Goku's power when he displayed half of it to Korin.

I'd almost forgotten Goku could fire Kamehamehas without a word in the Buu Saga. That puts a damper in my criticism. Still, this is variable with Goku even in the manga without the anime, sometimes he says the attack name, sometimes he doesn't. There's a reason that trope is considered synonymous with DBZ after all.

Well it is his trope to shout the attack. But this is EOZ Goku. And as a SSJ3 he almost never shouted the attack when he fired it unlike before. There is more than one example. I already showed him doing this in his fight with Fat Buu. But th is was also seen twice in his fight with Kid Buu as well.

Here he fires a kamehameha before Kid Buu can reach him. Again showing he doesn't need to say the words to fire it and is able to fire the blasts very quickly.

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He does it again later in the fight. When Buu fires his kamehameha at Goku. Goku tanks the blast then quickly fire his own kamehameha before Buu can react to it. In this case it completely vaporizes Buu.

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Also even in his anime fight with Beerus as an SSJ3. Goku is able to fire a kamehameha through the king kai's planet(In the anime he doesn't do the punch). And again he doesn't shout out the word, just grunts loudly.

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Link for reference since you can't here audio on the GIF.

I think this is all proof enough that as a SSJ3 Goku can fire a powerfull kamehameha quickly and without having to shoutout the attack.

If that and the Imperiex Probe feats aren't good/quantifiable enough

Just a point on the imperiex feat. Since I did some digging on it. When the imperiex drone when of on Earth all it did was bust Topeka, Kansas. Which makes tanking a blast from largely unimpressive when considering the level of attack Goku.

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It was confirmed later by Wonder Woman that it was infact the imperiex drone that caused that damage.

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I know already said it was unquantifiable. But I had already researched this for something else so I figured I would post it here to show why I believe it is unimpressive.

If that and the Imperiex Probe feats aren't good/quantifiable enough, perhaps I should move onto energy attacks from beings more powerful than Goku or Superman. He's one of the few beings who can consistently tank Darkseid's Omega Beams.

While this is impressive. Darkseid's omega beams have been impressive not because of their raw power but because of their versatility. The omega beams are capable of doing many things that make it extremely dangerous. I'm not saying Darkseid doesn't have great raw power but honestly this really doesn't suggest Superman is capable of tanking a planetary attack from Goku. I don't recall an instance in Pre 52 where Darkseid displayed Planetary power. And there really is no indication he is using such power in this instance.

He'd just unleashed his God of Strength Apokolips solar power on Mobius so he was back to his regular power levels. Furthermore, the same Mobius disintegrated New 52 Ultraman.

OK this I can admit is a very impressive feat considering what he did to Ultraman. But you have to take into account that in Ultraman's case, Mobius didn't just simply blast him from him a distance like he did with Superman. Instead going right up to him and lasting him contentiously until he died.

Also vaporizing someone is something DBZ characters have been capable of doing. Goku doesn't have many example of this. But Vegeta back in saiyan saga was capable of completely vaporizing Nappa. The same Nappa who tanked attacks from all the z fighters bar GoOku. Which included Piccolo who was a moon buster.

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Yes Superman was clearly at his limit here but he's become more powerful and durable since then as I have shown scans of Superman surviving planetary sized attacks.

Now this is an impressive feat. But it clearly took a toll on superman. And knocked him out for good. Also which planetary feats are you referring to?

Anyway speaking of planetary. I have already shown Frieza's great durability. But here is probably his beat durability feats in terms of energy durability. Which is when he tanked Goku's spirit bomb. Now unlike the namek explosion. This attack was all concentrated on Frieza. And for the spirit bomb Goku was drawing energy from all the nearby planets to namek as stated by Himself and Krillin. Frieza took the attack head on and still survived.

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Now as I'm sure you know. Frieza survived this blast despite taking it head on. For those who are unfamilar here is Frieza before and after taking the blast

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  1. This was just before when he tanked Goku's KKX20 Kamehameha.
  2. This after. The only noticeable difference is that he lost a portion of his tail.

This is the same Frieza who kicked away a planetary attack from Vegeta with ease. Even if you consider the former feat as an act of Ki control. It still shows that Goku's KKX20 Kamehameha and Spirit Bomb are more powerful than a regular planetary blast. Now Goku isn't going to use a spirit bomb in this fight. He really can't afford to. But it does showcase Frieza's durability which is greater than Superman based of showing as of now. And he was still no match for Goku. Who was doing this level of damage to Frieza as a SSJ casually.

Infact King Cold who was on par with Mecha Frieza a version of Frieza that was even stronger than one shown before, was basically oneshotted by a SSJ Trunks Someone who Goku was explicitly shown to be even with. Now King Cold is from the same as Frieza as is and naturally posses the same level of durability and power as his son. Trunks had earlier stomped his Frieza with ease.

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I can accept Buu's blast being planet busting but I don't think that necessarily means Vegeta's deflecting blast was equally powerful. It just looks like Vegeta redirected its line of fire with a precisely fired ki blast. What you've shown seems to be more about precision than power.'

I disagree with this. On many an occasion the only method of deflecting attacks in DBZ has been to release an equally power attack. Such as Goku and Vegeta during saiyan saga. Or the two instances between Cell and Gohan. Vegeta would require atleast the same amount of power to be able to erase an attack as has been the case with pretty much every instance of such attacks in DBZ. This is is DBZ after all, where power is basically everything.

Was SSJ3 Goku equal to Kid Buu in terms of power alone? I agree regeneration is why Buu won but Buu had feats like casually blowing up the Earth and managing to repel the Spirit Bomb. As I will show in the next part, Goku's confidence in being able to beat Kid Buu might have been misplaced based on the SSJ3 form's weakness.

Blowing up the Earth something Goku could do casually if he really wanted. I mean even Frieza could have one shot the planet and Goku is leagues above. Buu was able to repel the spirit bomb mainly because Goku had no energy left. Which was why Vegeta used the last wish to give Goku his energy back. Which resulted on Goku almost instantly killing Buu with the Bomb. Goku only really lost because of the energy drain, in terms of pure power they were pretty much even. Vegeta said that if Goku had managed to to build up his ki as an SSJ3 he would have been able to beat Buu. Now in DB Super the energy drain doesn't seem to be an issue. Goku was able to maintain the SSJ3 through out his fight with Beerus, showing no signs of energy drain. He even used the form against Trunks later in the anime without much problem.

And he's been punched to the moon twice and been fine afterwards (Superman: 10 Cent Adventure and Action Comics #762)

I don't tanking being punched to the moon is a good enough to feat to suggest he could tank Gokus king kai planet feat. Admittedly Goku isn't going to use this right of the bat and it does take all of his strength to pull of such a feat but if he does, it will do significant damage to Superman.

He's tanked being punched through the Earth by Bizarro whilst his mind was inside Bizarro.

I don't think this is the same thing as tanking a moon busting strike that Goku can use. While he is getting knocked a large distance, it's not the same thing as tanking a moon busting attck to the face. Not saying Superman can't. I'm sure he has to feat to suggest he can though may not with ease. I just don't think this particular feat is evidence of that.

Stamina

Durability is one way Superman can outlast Goku. Another way is through his superior stamina, endurance and energy efficiency. This is something I brought up in my CAV with Pope. Goku's concentrated ki attacks and Super Saiyan transformations may increase his power and damage output, but I've found they are extremely taxing on Goku's body and ki supply. Before Goku could go Super Saiyan, he had to rely on the Kaio Ken to increase his power in battle and King Kai told Goku to never use above Kaio Ken times two as the toll on his body might be too great. After using the Kaio Ken times 3 on Vegeta, Goku thought he would be the first to give in. And after the Kaio Ken times four, Goku was in immense pain, struggling to breath and had reached his limit (read right to left)

Kaioken has always had this problem, it's why Goku only ever used it short bursts. And Goku stopped using the technique once he achieved the SSJ form. Only bringing it back later in Super. Seeing how this eoz Goku starting in his SSJ3 Form, he won't be using Kaio-ken in this fight. So fatigue caused by the using Kaoi-ken won't really be a problem.

You might say the Super Saiyan transformation was less taxing on the body, but that wouldn't be true. Goku going Super Saiyan during the fight with Android 19 made the heart virus he was suffering from stronger for instance.

Now I do disagree with this. There is nothing in that scan that suggest the form was making the virus stronger. He was suffering from a heart diseases at the point and this was very clear when he was in his base form as well. We seeing him huffing and Tien makes not of how out of breath he already is going into the fight. If he was this tiered from just flying, then obivously getting into a fight would drain him more.

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Goku was able to use the form throuhgout his fight Frieza without any sort of loss of stamina or energy. Even later users of the form like Trunks and Vegeta were able to sue form with ease and without any noticeable fatigue. Now that's not to say it doesn't put a strain on the body. It does, however it is no where near the level of strain the KK had and it isn't signifcant enough to make an issue. But on top of that. Goku did spend almost an entire year in the ROSAT to master the form perfectly anyway. And he managed to use the form with out it's negative side effects.

Furthermore, after Goku used his Kamehameha on Cell, that significantly decreased his ki and he was struggling to catch his breath afterwards. Cell noted Goku had lost a lot of strength and even allowed him the chance to eat a senzu bean so he could get back to full power.

Now Kamehameha's do drain Goku for sure. Though as a SSJ3 he is seemingly able to fire multiple ones during the fight. As seen in his anime fight with Beerus and Kid Buu. And even his Fat Buu fight it didn't seem to do much to him. That aside, Goku's is not going to need to fire multiple planetary kamehameha's in this fight. One planetary kamehameha hitting Superman would do significant damage and atleast knock him out. So while it does drain him, Goku would only need to fire one or two of these anyway, to win the fight.

This was also indicated in the Super manga during Goku's fight with Hit where Vados states Goku was using up a lot of stamina to keep up with Hit's time skip and that would cause him to deplete his stamina first.

Well you have to take into account that in this fight Goku was fighting someone well above his paygrade. Hit had just stomped SSB Vegeta(Who was 1t 10% but that should still be above regular SSJ). His fights with Cell, Friza and Frost had all lasted longer. And he was able to maintain to form without any difficulty.

But most importantly, this is about the rule you wanted for this debate for Goku to start off in Super Saiyan 3 straight away. Super Saiyan 3 is Goku's best chance of beating Superman but it also makes him incredibly vulnerable as you already know. Compared to the Kaio Ken and regular Super Saiyan form, SSJ3 is a massive drain on Goku's body since it requires an incredible amount of ki to maintain. After SSJ3 Goku fought Kid Buu, Vegeta switched with Goku to give him time to charge up for a minute his ki and use a powerful attack to destroy Buu. However, Goku spent well over 5 minutes charging his ki yet his body eventually started to lose ki/chi and reverted back to his base form.

Super Saiyan 3 is a hard form to maintain. But the situaiton with Kid Buu is different from the one here. Goku needed to charge for a while so that he would have been able to pull of a powerful enough attack to end Kid Buu. We see that the level of attack that was required to permanently put down Kid Buu for good. A spirit bomb that had the energy of the people on Earth, Namek and otherworld. So Goku failed to charge long enough to get that level of energy and it ended up backfiring.

However while fighting Kid Buu he was able to match him evenly and would have ended the fight on multiple occasions if not for Kid buu coming back from pretty much every attack he came back from every attack. He was also able to use the form against Beerus in both the anime and Manga without having any major loss in energy. Yes the form only lasts for so long and in the end it does wear of. But Goku knows this, and it will only force him to go all out the moment the battle begins instead of holding back his attacks.

But Superman doesn't have to intentionally use this tactic for it to be effective. Goku's immensely taxing Super Saiyan 3 is a ticking time bomb that is waiting to go off as he cannot use SSJ3 for a long duration. Whereas Superman's solar battery body will keep him empowered for more than long enough to defeat Goku. I know you'll argue strongly that Goku can beat Superman before he loses too much strength, but Superman's much higher durability coupled with his stamina is more likely to keep him in the fight whilst Goku's energy will plummet in a short time once he starts going all out.

Superman certainly does have a Stamina advantage. So the question is can Superman tank all of Goku's attacks before Goku's SSJ3 Form ends up running out. Superman has good durability but from what I have seen, when he has come up against the level of attack Goku can produce, it has ended up being very taxing on him and even knocking him out.

Skill

Goku's life does revolve around fighting where Superman's does not, but that doesn't take away from what Superman has learnt in his career as a superhero or how well he's mastered his powers. He's also capable of making strategic decisions because of his genius intellect that Goku would never think of because he lacks the knowledge to come up with such plans. Take this instance from Action Comics #839 where Superman hits Bloodsport just hard enough to make him shoot Silver Banshee and take out Livewire in the process.

I don't get what you mean lacks knowledge of coming up with a plant. Superman is most certainly smarter than Goku. But I don't think Goku's stupidity for the lack of a better word has ever been a problem in battle. There are many instances of him being able to figure out weaknesses of his opponents and coming up with strategies to defeat them. Instances such as Botamo or Yakon are good examples of this. However I will admit I may have underestimated Superman's combat smarts.

I think most people think Goku's martial arts skill is greater than Superman's, myself included. Superman does have some combat training from Batman, Wonder Woman and Mongul II though, and he's especially skilled at targeting pressure points in battle. He's used them on a Kryptonian soldier, Mongul, Batman, Maxima and Ultraman.

I figured pressure points would be brought up at some point. Goku has dealt with users who utilize Pressure point attacks. The Major exampels of this would be Hit and Mercenary Tao. Now Hit's pressure point attacks are a major part of his powerset. Which Goku ended up having to deal with on multiple occasions. Goku did get tagged by Hit a couple of times in base form. Yet was still able to fight afterwards. He even able to do so after taking a bunch of attacks as SSSB and SSB KK though that is a far stronger version of Goku being used here, pressure points usually bypass durability so Goku being able to get back up is fairly impressive. And should show pressure points won't have too much of an affect on him.

But in terms of fighting skill Goku obviously outclasses Superman. I still think Superman's powers mastery is a match for Goku's fighting knowledge though. For instance, even if Goku can resist Superman's heat vision, that doesn't mean Superman can't use it effectively. Instead of blasting Goku's body, he can aim for Goku's face or eyes and blind him temporarily, leaving him vulnerable to attack. This is something New 52 Superman in particular did a lot of the time, though Pre 52 Superman has a couple instances of it too.

Well Goku has dealt with something similar in the past. During his fight with Piccolo back during the Budokai. Piccolo pretty much attempted the exact same thing, where he tried to blast Goku with his eyebeams and Goku evaded it pretty easily. It was pointblank as well so it is a fairly impressive feat for Goku to pull off. And I could see him doing so here.

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Superman's eyes do go red just when he is about to blast someone so Goku will know if he attempts this Also I don't think a blast to the face would be too much of a problem. While blasting him in the eye would have serious effect, Superman needs to get right up close to Goku to do this, which won't be easy. And Goku can evade as he did with Piccolo especilly since he can easily tell when Superman is going to do this, or even use his TK eye blasts to redirect the blasts back. While this won't kill superman or do any significant damage it would still temporarily blind him.

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I see why you wanted to use this example in our debate, it certainly highlights Goku's combat smarts well. Superman is no stranger to using strategy to win fights instead of just knocking out his opponents. One method Superman can use to great effect on Goku is to blitz him into space and use the pressure drop and shortage of air to choke Goku out.

Well as per are agreement, and just to let the voters know, we decided that this would likely break the BFR rule put in place so for the sake of this debate this won't be allowed.

I'm curious what you mean about basic knowledge playing a factor in the battle. I've justified Superman blitzing Goku into space to asphyxiate him without any need for prior knowledge for instance. Goku's basic knowledge is mainly that Superman is another powerful alien who gets his powers from a yellow sun. I'm not sure how he can exploit that knowledge in battle.

Well for one I think atleast current Goku can use this as a means of anticipating what Superman does. I still feel Goku can exploit Superman's inability to sense Ki. However basic knowledge will really come into play when Superman attempts to bulrush him at full speeds. Goku will know that he can't tank his most powerful and use Instant transmission to avoid him.

I think Goku's skill advantage will mainly come into play to help avoid attacks from him. It also allow him to adapt to Superman's fighting style and find ways around it. Or even us his own moves against him. He was able to learn all of Piccolo's moves in just a single fight. He was also able to instantly learn the kamehameha, a technique that took Roshi years to master.

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#109 Edited by emperorthanos- (16779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Hey I just want to apologize for taking so long. I have been getting each section done bit by bit as I get the time. I wanted to let you know that I'm still interested in this oh and check if you are still down to finish this. I'm done with everything UNI related by the end of this month. So from then onwards I will be able to reply promptly as I have a four month break.

I was honestly hoping to get this done by the time HOF nominations had started but I have been unable to do that. But I promise by the months end the post should definitely be done.

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#110 Posted by Lvenger (36344 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: That's alright, I understand uni stuff made it difficult for you to finish your post. I've also been busy with real life and other CAVs so I wouldn't have been too prompt on responding either. I'm down for finishing this with 1 or 2 more posts if you are?

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#111 Posted by sladerulez (10000 posts) - - Show Bio
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#112 Posted by alucardvanwayne1800 (1590 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#113 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio
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#114 Edited by sladerulez (10000 posts) - - Show Bio
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#115 Posted by emperorthanos- (16779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: im mean if its fine with you. Once im done with this post we can do 1 more post each.

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#116 Posted by Lvenger (36344 posts) - - Show Bio
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#117 Edited by deactivated-5a853424245e3 (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

This seems like a rehash of the last Superman versus Goku CaV I read (with Lvenger representing Clark)--but at least this time I'll get a chance to vote and voice my views, unlike last time.

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#118 Posted by Chaos239 (5081 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#119 Edited by HigherPower (12407 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#120 Posted by GIliad_ (6676 posts) - - Show Bio

Imagine the most amazed, wide-eyed reaction gif you've every seen.... If I wasn't on mobile you'd be seeing that right now

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#121 Posted by DeathHero61 (18876 posts) - - Show Bio
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#122 Posted by sladerulez (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V!

Kick his ass! Thanos

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#123 Edited by TheMuser (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V, Looking to enter DB debating potentially and this could be informative.

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#124 Posted by emperorthanos- (16779 posts) - - Show Bio

@themuser: interesting always nice to see new DB debaters.

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#125 Posted by Bluejay4 (4037 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#126 Posted by TheMuser (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: cheers man, I have seen you around the vine repping DB characters, nice to see a pro at work.

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#127 Posted by DeathHero61 (18876 posts) - - Show Bio

One day I'll be good enough at this where I can try debating against the likes of Lvenger.

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#128 Posted by blackpantherisb (7573 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#130 Posted by Lvenger (36344 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Post is very nearly done, I'll finish the rest of it and post it tomorrow morning BST.

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#131 Posted by emperorthanos- (16779 posts) - - Show Bio
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#132 Posted by ODIN619360 (2616 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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Conclusion

Strength

Wraith has never shown Frieza level durability. Though I will admit the Green lanterns have similar level of feats and Doomsday too, but I don't recall Diana having something similar.

I agree with your later point, However Frieza is the on exception to that. At least by feats such has tanking the Spirit bomb or surviving the destruction of planet with no power at all.

Wraith’s skin was stated to be tougher than New 52 Superman’s and he was shown tanking red sun bullets that pierced Superman’s skin. As for Diana, she did survive Superman’s bloodlusted punch in the Sacrifice fight.

I do agree Frieza has some of the most impressive durability in the DBZ universe based on his feats. So hurting him is impressive as I’ve already conceded.

Well he can amplify his physical with ki of course. Which is common with every other DBZ character. But that still shows how hard he would be able to hit someone.

It's not completely devoid of ki. All of Frieza's attacks use ki whether they are in the form of blasts or in the form of punches or kicks. Same with Goku and every other DB character. All their strength, speed, durbaility comes from it. Frieza clearly just kicked that blast, Piccolo himself said that. That seems far more likely to have happened than Frieza being able to redirect ki purely though his ki manip when he couldn't tell how powerful the blasts was. Not anyone can just touch them, but considering all of Frieza's physical attack use ki there is no reason he can't

It’s true that DBZ characters can amplify their physicals with ki, although it’s not always as obvious as Goku charging his finger with ki to block Trunks’ sword.

But that’s the thing, if everything comes from ki in DBZ as you say, then by that logic blocking and deflecting large ki attacks is also down to ki too. Frieza’s Final Form was well beyond everyone else at that point so it should be irrelevant for Frieza to not know the strength of the blast. There’s also the fact that kicking away a potentially planet busting blast does not make you a planet buster.

I never said it removes his own natural durability but hurting Frieza at one percent is a lot easier than hurting him at 100%. I'm not scaling Goku's durability here. I'm just showing how hard he punches. I can't give you an exact chapter but I can give you examples. One has recently as the infamous laser incident during the ROF saga. Goku turns back into base and drops his ki allowing Sorbet to take him out with a common laser. And yes Goku did state that. But the moment Frieza Ki had dropped to point where he wasn't a challenge Goku just stopped fighting. So until this Frieza was still a threat to SSJ Goku. It was similar to the Golden Frieza form.

Whilst Frieza at 100% should have been more powerful, he was also losing power far faster than his regular use of his Final Form. To be honest, the laser example doesn’t exactly help your case given how embarrassing it is for Goku’s durability. If Goku can be hurt by a laser just by dropping his guard, that wouldn’t speak very highly for his durability. This is rarely shown with Superman’s durability when his guard is down. By comparison, Frieza survived being cut in half, an energy blast from Goku and an exploding planet. That’s much higher natural durability than Goku has shown.

Well in regards to Botamo. There was never really no threat there. And his raw speed was more than enough. And Frost never came full speed bullrushing at him like superman does. If Superman is coming at him from a mile away bullrushing at top speeds. Goku can easily avoid it. He doesn't necessarily need to use instant transmission to do so. Goku with basic knowledge will be aware that his opponents strikes aren't some he can casually tank with ease.

Goku will not use at the start of the fight but he really wouldn't need to. He is starting the fight as an SSJ3 and Superman isn't going to use a full powered bullrush right from the start. I really only the moon level bullrushes doing significant to SSJ3 Goku.

You’re right that Botamo posed no real threat to Goku but Frost did come charging at Goku with a speed bullrush once he transformed into his final form in the anime, which Goku admittedly blocked. He also tried blitzing him several times in the manga version of the fight based on a quick viewing of the manga chapters on Youtube. Regardless, Goku knowing that Superman can hit hard doesn’t mean he can always stay ahead of him in this fight.

Nor is Goku going to unleash an all-out blitz like he used on Majiin Buu or Beerus. Because of the willing to kill rule though, I can argue that moon busting strikes are on the table for Superman since he’s less likely to hold back.

Well that is indeed a powerful line up. None of those character really operate on planetary level. Infact aside from J'onn none them can be considiered moon busters and with J'onn it would require scaling (though I'm really in no position to criticize that).

I forgot to mention Kyle Rayner was there too and he has legitimate planetary/planet busting feats that I’m sure you’re aware of.

Well yeah we don't have numbers but it's pretty obvious that they are on much higher level than Frieza considering how they were manhandling multiple characters above SSJ Goku.

Goku was tired out though, that’s the key thing regarding the Cell Juniors’ fight with the Z Warriors. And if this is meant to imply that SSJ2s and above can one shot Frieza, I have my doubts about that. Since by feats Frieza has much better durability and tanked more than the Cell Juniors have.

Breaking constructs are impressive but are still unquantifiable. Not every construct made by Kyle is as durable as the other. This applies to Jon as well. their constructs have been broken several times by characters weaker than Superman. The Jon feat has a little more weight to it. But you can't really say he was using ring exceeding amounts of willpower against his mind controlled friend. Atleast not in the same was he would have used when trying to recreate Xanshi considering his history with it's destruction.

The Kyle construct that Superman broke through was dwarfing a city so it must have been a pretty strong construct. And John’s construct feat had the statement reinforcing John’s willpower being pitted against the force of Clark’s punch. I don’t see why I can’t cite examples of John’s willpower to demonstrate how impressive it is for Clark to bust through it.

Maybe not the most impressive feat. Especially since I can bring up better ones But Recoome does have proven durability and doesn't require as much scaling as others. Though I have already shown far superior feats such making Frieza bleed and Gohan stomping the Cell Jr's.

Exactly hence why the specifics of Recoome’s feat are ultimately not pertinent to our final discussion. Though I’ve made sure to do the same with Superman too.

While this is an impressive feat. You have to take into account what happen right before that. Superman just didn't do it on the fly the way Goku did. Goku just threw a punch at Beerus, which missed and then blew a howl through King Kai's planet. In Superman's case, he had time to gain momentum while flying form spaces as H'el fought Wonder Woman and Superboy. Then surprised attacked him.

While it being s surprise attack doesn't take anything away from the feat. The fact that he had to cross a great distance does. Goku on the other hand can use a powerful instantly has an SSJ3. Yes it takes effort but he can do it quickly.

Although you’re correct that Superman built up momentum before blitzing H’el and caught him by surprise, your analysis is incorrect in saying Superman’s planet shaking blows required a build up. When Superman was shaking the Earth whilst punching H’el, he was standing still as can be seen in this close up panel.

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The feat is clear cut. Superman sliced the moon. There is not much to say about it except that slicing up a small moon on Saturn wouldn't require as much force as splitting Earth's Moon. Aside from Titan, all the other moon on Saturn are smaller than Earth's. . And seeing how it specifies that it is a small moon of Saturn, I think it's safe to say it is definitely not Titan and one of the smaller ones. And since the second largest is Rhea that is around 44% diameter of Earth's moon.

I admit the small moon statement lessens the impact of the feat but it is still a decent showing of striking power. It is also eclipsed by several other striking feats that Superman has been shown capable of.

I'm not too sure what's going on here. He seems to attack the black racer then get's blasted away. I guess Black Racers rebounds attacks

Superman punched the Black Racer, the force of his blow rebounded off the Racer since the Racer is immune to harm being the avatar of death and the shockwaves cracked half the moon. Black Racer even says Superman is the one who has damaged the moon. That was all the result of Clark’s punch.

I can admit this is comparable to Goku's punch in terms of destructive output. But it still required Superman to fly at near light speed across a large distance to destroy the moon. And just like the punch against H'el. I don't think Superman could do the same when the distance is only a couple of meters apart at most. Nor would Goku just stay in a single place to allow himself to get hit. Goku on the other hand just needs to do this.

The Shadow Moon feat is definitely Superman’s best in character striking feat compared with Goku’s. I’ve already shown that Superman’s punches on H’el were done with Clark stationary. If Goku is damaged or fatigued during the battle, he may struggle to avoid this Hail Mary move of Superman’s. Also, Superman has stated that he'd hit Konvikt hard enough to shatter small planets in Trinity #5.

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There is one last striking feat Superman has which matches the Shadow Moon feat without him needing to build up speed. This would be Superman one shotting Wonder Woman from the sun to the Earth in Wonder Woman #219. He just threw a punch at Diana without building up speed and KOed her in a single blow sending her millions of miles back to Earth in seconds.

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One shotting someone as durable as Wonder Woman in a single blow is no small achievement and I think we can both agree Goku wouldn’t stand up to this attack either.

I think overall they are comparable in strength based of the feats shown. Only difference is that Superman's best feat does require him to bullrush someone across a large distance. Goku on the other can just Throw a powerful punch that packs the same amount of power.

While GOku can't really tanks Supermans powerful bull rush, If you combine his speed advantage, instant transmission and the fact that Superman can't just bullrush with that amount of power across a couple of meters, Goku should be able to avoid his powerful bullrush attacks.

Admittedly they do have some similar feats but Superman has more destructive feats consistently and his feat against Wonder Woman during Sacrifice shows he can deliver massive force without needing to build up.

Goku’s durability is a problem against Superman’s striking whereas vice versa Superman can take Goku’s best blows. Goku can use Instant Transmission to evade these attacks but he does not use it all the time instead relying on his speed which won’t be enough to avoid Superman’s blows.

Durability

Well the first one was clearly about his breath. Frieza had explicitly pointed out earlier.

In the latter two cases it need not mean that oxygen wasn't involved. Also I would also need to mention that in both cases that these attacks were clearly not ordinary planet busting attacks either. Cell's explosons is clearly a lot more power than any of Frieza's blast would be.

While Kid Buu's attacks for sure wasn't just a standard planetary attack. GOku states that they couldn't deflect it even though a moment ago Vegeta had casually deflected a planetary attack from Kid Buu. This clearly implies that Kid Buu's second planet busting attack was far more powerful than the first (The anime states it could have blown up the earth 10 times over). So this blast being able to kill Goku doesn't really take away from the fact that he is capable of tanking planetary energy attacks.

Possibly but I still don’t believe Goku was just worried about the lack of oxygen. He was also worried that he wouldn’t be able to survive the explosion since Frieza stated his physiology could withstand the planet’s explosion.

Cell’s attack was a planetary explosion meant to destroy the Earth so I’m not sure why it’s inherently more powerful than Frieza’s blasts. Just because Cell was more powerful than Frieza doesn’t mean all of his attacks are automatically more powerful. In most debates, we go by the evidence that is shown as you know and what was shown of Cell’s explosion was that it was a planet busting attack, not a multi planet busting attack. What was shown doesn’t support your perspective here.

With Majiin Buu though, you at least have evidence to support your claim that he can casually planet bust and then some. But you said you’re using manga version so that statement doesn’t count. By what has been consistently shown in both the manga and anime every time Goku has been faced with a planet busting attack, he has either escaped from it or died to it. The lack of oxygen excuse is only a minor part of this point. By feats, Goku cannot withstand a planet busting attack whereas Superman can.

I have now doubt that Superman has better durability. This is probably the one advantage over him. But Goku's energy manip will most certainly over come him.

There’s more than one advantage that Superman holds over Goku in this fight. As for whether Goku’s energy manip can overcome Superman’s durability, I’ll discuss that in the next section.

Frieza held back because he was afraid of being caught up in the explosion. In all honestly I could really argue it being PIS for him not blowing up the planet there. COnsidering we know he can survive planetary explosions. And I'm not every single ki blast used by Frieza against Goku was planetary. But in that instant I posted Frieza was clearly blasting Goku with everything he had. The blasts were fired in the air and didn't touch the ground either.

You could argue it was PIS but it’s also worth remembering Frieza aimed his blast at the planet’s core, not Goku so Goku might not have tanked that attack very well had it been a direct hit. If those blasts were everything he had, I have to question why they weren’t more destructive. It’s hard to claim Frieza was going all out with his attacks and yet not have the planet be destroyed which Frieza has proven capable of. That brings us back to the logical inconsistencies I was referring to.

Now onto heat. Goku;s vulnerability to heat attacks is only really present in the anime. there is no instance in the manga were Goku is weak the heat based attacks. There are a couple of instances where Goku was able to take heat equivalent to lava.

Admittedly this is a nice defence of Goku’s heat durability. I’ve already cited as many heat vision feats for Superman that are worth discussing. So I’ll leave it to the voters to decide if Superman can or can’t affect Goku with his heat vision. But assuming Goku can resist Superman’s heat vision directly, there’s still another way for Superman to damage Goku with heat vision. Superman can just perform a heat vision lobotomy on Goku to take him out. When Superman was pretending to ‘kill’ The Elite in Action Comics #775, he pretended to lobotomise Black’s powers with a focused burst of heat vision. Although he just popped him with the equivalent of a forced concussion, Superman’s dialogue implies he can do this if he was willing to kill.

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If more evidence is needed, Superman was able to burn a homing device in Batman’s skull with his heat vision in Batman #619. That would require a lot more skill and accuracy than just burning out his brain.

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He also used his heat vision to fry Parasite’s brain in Superman vol 3 #27.

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Ice is really not going to be an issue.

Perhaps not for hurting Goku but it does temporarily restrain Goku so that whilst he’s breaking free of the ice, Superman can hit him with a powerful punch or bullrush. Or he can freeze Goku's hands to stop him from firing ki blasts like he did against Superwoman.

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Energy Manip vs Superman’s Durability

Well the will most certainly require Goku to use a planetary attack. Superman has the better durability than any other opponent he has faced so far. So if Goku is willing to resort to it And Ok even if Goku doesn't know the planet they are fighting on is indestructible, that has never stopped him before like against Cell. As I said he is going to spam planetary attacks or use them from t he get go. Just like how Superman is going to use moon busting bullrushes from the get go. However Goku will use this level of power once he realizes he has too.

It may not have stopped him going all out with Cell but remember that Goku was well into his fight with Cell before using an all out Kamehameha on him. He didn't use planetary blasts against Fat Buu, the only planetary blast was one fired by Buu which Babidi said destroyed a fifth of the planet. It can be argued Goku used planetary blasts against Kid Buu on the Kai's home planet but he didn't spam them like you claim he did. He used Kamehamehas a couple times during the fight.

That is one of the reasons why he never displayed moon busting power. Like I said the kamehameha allow them to focus their energy at a single point. Something Piccolo couldn't do.

Also Piccolo during early saiyan saga wasn't much stronger than before. Infact all he had was a new technique. Yet this Piccolo was still able to blow up the moon himself.

Focusing ki in a single point doesn’t reduce the blast radius of an attack though. This is the biggest problem with the ki control argument, sure you can focus energy into a single point but you can’t contain the blast radius. That’s just not how energy blasts work.

That might be debatable since Piccolo made a big deal about how he’d developed this new technique which would have required him to get stronger. Although this was before DBZ characters used peace time for serious training so I can see where you’re coming.

Even if it did touch the planet. It at best grazed. Pretty much everyone around could tell the blast was planetary. While the instant transmission was to take Cell by surprise it was also to ensure Goku didn't the planet with his blast.

Either way based of the damage he did to cell, the blast certainly was planetary. Even if it wasn't necessarily stronger than Vegeta's.

Goku was pretty worried about Cell firing his Kamehameha close to the ground for fear of the planet being destroyed yet he did the same thing and the Earth wasn’t blown up as a result. Everyone could tell the blast was powerful but for it to be planetary, everyone on Earth would have had to have noticed it. And based on what was shown in the manga, they didn’t. Instant Transmission was used to surprise Cell but I still don’t believe it actually reduced the destructive effect of the Kamehameha. You haven’t said how IT could reduce the blast radius on its own.

The damage it did to Cell was impressive which is what makes it a good destructive feat. But the problem still remains that for something to be planetary, it has to have planetary scale. And it’s not crystal clear whether the IT Kamehameha did that.

the surprise aspect shouldn't have changed much. Atleast in this context Cell was prepared to get hit by a planetary attack. the only thing that changed was that Goku teleported in front of him. He was still going at full power during his fight with Goku whilst against Vegeta he had been holding his back.

Plus aside from the visible damage done to Cell. there is the fact that Cell had lost a large amount of energy after tanking Goku's attack whilst there was no mentiona of him losing energy after getting hit by Vegeta's final flash. This can't all be due to just Goku teleporting in front of Cell.

Based on Cell preparing himself against the Final Flash compared with Goku catching him off guard with the IT Kamehameha, the surprise did change the affect. A boxer can block a punch if his guard is up but if he lets his guard down and his opponent lands a sucker punch, the boxer will take more damage from it. I believe the same principle applies with Goku’s attack on Cell.

I can agree the attack took a lot out of Cell hence why I brought that instance up in the stamina section but the nature of the attack contributed to damaging Cell so severely along with its raw power.

Well yeah I'm basing it off the amount of damage it did to Cell. I don't really see AOE as a measure of how powerful the attacks where. If anything it should show that GOku has better control of his blasts. And Cell tanked both head on. One clearly did more damage to him and caused him to lose alot more ki than the other. Cell was still holding back in his fight with Vegeta while this was not the case in his fight with Goku. Plus we know for a fact that Goku was superior to Vegeta. Vegeta was even astonished by Goku's power when he just displayed half of it. It's logical that Goku's most powerful attack is greater than Vegeta's

But AOE shows how much damage the attack did or the destruction it’s capable of. DBZ can be a little inconsistent in this regard as you know since despite becoming more and more powerful over the course of the show, the size of their attacks remains generally the same. For instance Vegeta’s Big Bang attack was barely larger than DB Piccolo’s island busting explosion, Majiin Vegeta’s explosion on Buu only looked like it could destroy a city or two and Frieza blowing up his own Death Ball didn’t destroy the planet. The inconsistencies of the source material work against what you’re saying Goku can do. And it doesn’t help that strictly speaking Goku has never actually destroyed a planet. Obviously Goku should be able to blow up a planet but we've only seen him come close to this destructive output a couple of times at best. But you have a point that Goku was superior to Vegeta at that time.

Well it is his trope to shout the attack. But this is EOZ Goku. And as a SSJ3 he almost never shouted the attack when he fired it unlike before. There is more than one example. I already showed him doing this in his fight with Fat Buu. But th is was also seen twice in his fight with Kid Buu as well…

Well the gif from the anime doesn’t count since you said you were using manga version only. But you have shown proper manga scans of Goku not saying the name of his attack before firing it so I admit that proves he can do so. He is still in character though for this fight and old habits die hard.

Just a point on the imperiex feat. Since I did some digging on it. When the imperiex drone when of on Earth all it did was bust Topeka, Kansas. Which makes tanking a blast from largely unimpressive when considering the level of attack Goku.

It was confirmed later by Wonder Woman that it was infact the imperiex drone that caused that damage.

I know already said it was unquantifiable. But I had already researched this for something else so I figured I would post it here to show why I believe it is unimpressive.

Although the Probe’s explosion taking out Wonder Woman, who has tanked city busting attacks and nukes, still makes this impressive to me, I will admit that this research does provide an alternative context for the Imperiex Probe feat to be viewed in.

OK this I can admit is a very impressive feat considering what he did to Ultraman. But you have to take into account that in Ultraman's case, Mobius didn't just simply blast him from him a distance like he did with Superman. Instead going right up to him and lasting him contentiously until he died.

Also vaporizing someone is something DBZ characters have been capable of doing. Goku doesn't have many example of this. But Vegeta back in saiyan saga was capable of completely vaporizing Nappa. The same Nappa who tanked attacks from all the z fighters bar GoOku. Which included Piccolo who was a moon buster.

You have a point in the difference of attacks Mobius used on Ultraman and Superman respectively, I expected you to bring that up. Nonetheless, Mobius used energy attacks in both instances and he was a ‘transcendent’ tier on par with New 52 Darkseid, who one shotted New 52 Superman in the past.

DBZ characters can disintegrate other characters but they have to be weaker than them. Qui was weaker than Vegeta when he got blown up by him when before they were at equal power levels. And a side note; if Nappa could tank Piccolo's moon busting attacks, then logically Goku shouldn’t have died to Cell’s explosion as a Full Powered Super Saiyan.

Anyway speaking of planetary. I have already shown Frieza's great durability. But here is probably his beat durability feats in terms of energy durability. Which is when he tanked Goku's spirit bomb. Now unlike the namek explosion. This attack was all concentrated on Frieza. And for the spirit bomb Goku was drawing energy from all the nearby planets to namek as stated by Himself and Krillin. Frieza took the attack head on and still survived.

Whilst this is impressive durability for Frieza, you can’t deny the explosion didn’t even cover half the size of Namek. I haven’t been able to find out the size of Namek but even if it is bigger than Earth, the explosion covering only a small part of the planet lessens the impact of this feat. It is still a planetary feat of course.

This is the same Frieza who kicked away a planetary attack from Vegeta with ease. Even if you consider the former feat as an act of Ki control. It still shows that Goku's KKX20 Kamehameha and Spirit Bomb are more powerful than a regular planetary blast. Now Goku isn't going to use a spirit bomb in this fight. He really can't afford to. But it does showcase Frieza's durability which is greater than Superman based of showing as of now. And he was still no match for Goku. Who was doing this level of damage to Frieza as a SSJ casually.

The Spirt Bomb may be more powerful than a regular planetary blast but as you said, Goku can’t afford to use a spirit Bomb in this fight, not to mention it wouldn't work on Superman. Goku’s KKx20 Kamahameha is not automatically more powerful than a planetary blast. For one it only did about the same amount of damage to Frieza that Namek’s explosion did. You’re playing a dangerous game stating Frieza’s durability is greater than Superman’s, especially since you know of Superman’s high end feats that blow Frieza’s out of the water.

Infact King Cold who was on par with Mecha Frieza a version of Frieza that was even stronger than one shown before, was basically oneshotted by a SSJ Trunks Someone who Goku was explicitly shown to be even with. Now King Cold is from the same as Frieza as is and naturally posses the same level of durability and power as his son. Trunks had earlier stomped his Frieza with ease.

You know this is just power scaling mate, it’d be no different than if I claimed Captain Marvel was completely equal with Superman based on this statement made by Superman. And at least Captain Marvel has some fights and feats where he matches up to Superman, King Cold didn’t do anything that Frieza did yet he’s automatically equal with Mecha Frieza? This example is why I have problems with DBZ scaling.

I disagree with this. On many an occasion the only method of deflecting attacks in DBZ has been to release an equally power attack. Such as Goku and Vegeta during saiyan saga. Or the two instances between Cell and Gohan. Vegeta would require atleast the same amount of power to be able to erase an attack as has been the case with pretty much every instance of such attacks in DBZ. This is is DBZ after all, where power is basically everything.

It hasn’t been the first time weaker characters have deflected more powerful energy blasts. Shin nullified Majiin Buu’s attack on Gohan that would have otherwise killed him and Piccolo’s ki blast was smaller than the blast Gohan fired at Cell yet it deflected a much bigger attack. All that proves is that the ki blasts have enough power to force an attack out of the way, that does not prove that the deflection blasts are as powerful.

Blowing up the Earth something Goku could do casually if he really wanted. I mean even Frieza could have one shot the planet and Goku is leagues above. Buu was able to repel the spirit bomb mainly because Goku had no energy left. Which was why Vegeta used the last wish to give Goku his energy back. Which resulted on Goku almost instantly killing Buu with the Bomb. Goku only really lost because of the energy drain, in terms of pure power they were pretty much even. Vegeta said that if Goku had managed to to build up his ki as an SSJ3 he would have been able to beat Buu. Now in DB Super the energy drain doesn't seem to be an issue. Goku was able to maintain the SSJ3 through out his fight with Beerus, showing no signs of energy drain. He even used the form against Trunks later in the anime without much problem.

I’ve quibbled with Goku’s ability to destroy a planet more than enough in this debate but it's highly probable Goku can destroy a planet since weaker characters have done this. This does not mean Goku will be able to take Superman out as easily as you think. Superman has even more impressive high end durability feats that can enable him to resist Goku’s strongest blasts which I will now cover. First up, Superman has survived the collision of Apokolips and New Genesis and the subsequent explosion that formed The Fifth World in Death of The New Gods #8.

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Although Superman was KOed by the planetary collision, New Genesis and Apokolips have been stated to be larger than Earth sized planets compared with the original Third World. A conversation between the Spectre and Zeus states the planet of the Elder Gods dwarfed galaxies and another instance states the Third World was larger than the largest star from which the fragments of New Genesis and Apokolips were formed.

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A second example of Superman’s incredible durability comes from Infinite Crisis #7 where Superman and his Earth 2 counterpart tank punches from Superboy Prime, fly Prime to Krypton through a field of Kryptonite debris, into a red sun and then fight a depowered Superboy Prime.

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This definitely shows how high Superman’s tolerance for pain can be especially since he was exposed to 2 of his weaknesses. Finally, there is Superman tanking an explosion 50 times larger than the Keplar supernova after being weakened by a Sun Eater’s red solar radiation blasts in Action Comics #847.

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I won’t deny that the electromagnetic radiation was probably going to finish Clark off but tanking that massive explosion is well above any DBZ destructive feat, both shown and stated ones.

I don't think this is the same thing as tanking a moon busting strike that Goku can use. While he is getting knocked a large distance, it's not the same thing as tanking a moon busting attck to the face. Not saying Superman can't. I'm sure he has to feat to suggest he can though may not with ease. I just don't think this particular feat is evidence of that.

The distance from one side of the Earth to the other is over 24,000 miles and Superman would have had to travel through multiple layers of solid rock to get there. Still, Superman has an even more impressive feat of physical where he tanks a hit from the Claw of Horus which drew its power from the magnetic core of the Earth, essentially making it a planetary strike, in Superman/Batman #4. He played possum to blindside Captain Marvel and Hawkman along with Batman in Superman/Batman #5.

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Speed

I never said it was a light speed feat. I was just throwing in there in the opener to show how Goku's speed has progressed. Anyway as to why Krillin's and Roshi's fight makes it consistent. This is what Roshi and Krillin were capable of doing during a very early stage in dragon ball. I don't think I need to tell just how big the difference in power is between these two and Goku and Vegeta.

Here is the fight between Krillin and Roshi that happened in a fraction of a second. Faster than anyone could see. They were able to fight, think of plan and play rock paper scissors faster than anyone could see.

It’s not a bad speed feat for sure, it’s just outclassed by the majority of scans you’ve posted for DBZ and Goku’s speed. As for consistency and power differences, I guess it adds up though Krillin and Master Roshi’s speed was only too fast for normal human eyes to follow.

Well I'm not using Fan made powerlevels or anything. At the very least Goku as an SSJ3 should be able to fire a kamehameha at the same speed as Gohan as an SSJ2. 'm not going to argue that he fire this many times faster or anything. Just that he should be able to fire a kamehameha at FTL speeds the same way Gohan did.

Again that is scaling off of other DBZ characters but you’re right that it’s not fan made power levels that DBZ Youtubers arbitrarily come up with. Which at least makes this claim more reliable.

This is an FTL feat like the previous one but this more of a travel feat. Superman can't exactly throw punches at such speeds. He can certainly do so in terms of flight and bullrush people but that doesn't mean he punches at FTl speeds. Goku on the other hand was deflecting light speed beams with his arms which would mean he could moves his arms at such speedswhich in turn would mean he can punch people at that level of speed.

I disagree, unlike the Doomsday example Superman was trading blows with Darkseid well before they got to the sun. The scans clearly show Superman fighting with Darkseid whilst travelling to the sun, which does show the speed required to move and punch at such speeds. Same as what Goku did.

Also Darkseid and New 52 Doomsday not nearly as fast Goku even as a SSJ let alone in as a SSJ3 to allow something like this. He would most certainly avoid can bullrushed out of the planet. Though Superman resorting to this would break the BFR rule in place.

True but they’re also more durable than Goku which means they could tank such blitzes. Goku on the other hand is much less durable and is not guaranteed to avoid Superman’s blitzes since Goku is not faster than the Flash. Flying Goku off planet would break the BFR rule but if it was kept on planet, it wouldn’t therefore it’s still valid.

Firstly I don't think there was any doubt on him having FTL perceptions. But it's whether he is capable of moving limbs at that same speed is the equestions. I guess this would be a good indication of FTL combat speed for Superman. Though it is a little vague. He does destroy the engines but he could have just bullrushed them.

I disagree, this feat is reliable proof he can move his limbs at FTL speeds since he only took out the engines of the ship when he could have blitzed the whole thing. And this is an in character Superman who performed it as well. I don’t see what’s so vague about it personally.

Well I can admit this does display speed on the level at which Goku's feats are on. And I agree Superman is no slouch in the speed department. Goku will certainly not blitz him like he does to other opponents. But with the combination of instant transmission and speed. He will be able to avoid Superman's attack that do take time. Such as his bullrushes. If Goku see him charging Goku isn't most certainly going to avoid even if it requires the use of Instant Transmission. Goku doesn't really take attacks head on.

heres is another example of Goku using instant transmissions at the last minute to avoid and attack. This against a blast fired by Buu. Goku was able to dodge the attack at the last minuete using instant transmission and then get a hit on Buu from behind.

Instant Transmission might help Goku avoid some of Superman’s attacks but Goku doesn’t spam IT in combat either. He’s just as likely to rely on his own speed and evasion against Superman as he is to use IT. It depends what Goku does against one of Superman’s bulrushes and you can’t guarantee that he will use IT 100% of the time.

I wouldn't consider it an overkill that they need to resort to SSJ. Vegeta likely did it to show off. But Goku most certainly required SSJ To bltiz him, otherwise he wouldn't have transformed. This is GOku we are talking about after all so if he doesn't need to go all out he wont. That should be a strong enough indication that the androids were above his base form atleast which is where Goku's FTL feats really come from.

Goku may have needed to do it because of the heart virus but Vegeta definitely just transformed to show his power off. Besides, Androids 19 and 20 weren’t sensed for their power compared to Frieza. At least King Cold was stated to be equal to Mecha Frieza according to energy sensing. Gero and 19 never got compared to Frieza so we don’t know how they stack up.

I don't think Wonder Woman nor Maxima are as fast as Superman. Maxima was faster than him early on but that was a far weaker incarnation that one with most of the FTL feats. Wonder Woman is certainly fast but I don't think Superman has ever really blitzed her in a fight. There was that instance you posted by they weren't really in combat there. Also it has been mentioned in the past that it is Wonder Woman's skill that has made her comparable to him not just raw speed.

Maxima’s best speed feat is perceiving Jay Garrick at hypersonic speeds so I can confirm your assessment of Maxima's speed. However, Diana has very good perceptions and reactions when it comes to speed so I definitely maintain that blitzing her is still a good showing of speed. A better example would be Superman’s perception and reaction speeds against those who are faster than him like Flash level speedsters for example.

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  • Scans 1-2: Reacts to New 52 Flash by predicting his movements (Justice League #2)
  • Scan 3: Perceives Barry Allen and Wally West moving at superluminal speeds. Definitely the best example of Superman’s perception speed. (Final Crisis #7)
  • Scan 4-7: Speeds up his senses to match Flash’s speed (Superman #709)
  • Scan 8: Tags Professor Zoom (Time Masters: Vanishing Point #4)
  • Scans 9-10: Calculates Walter West’s average speed stride and intercepts him (JLA #33)

As long as Superman can perceive and react to Flash tier speedsters, Goku won't be that far ahead of him in speed and evasion.

Senses didn't really have any part of that instance. Vegeta knew exactly where he was at each moment. And he knew where to punch, so that wasn't the problem atleast for vegeta. He just wasn't able to punch fast enough to hit Goku. And this Vegeta is most certainly Superman's equal in speed if not faster considering you have admitted that Goku has an edge here.

If senses had nothing to do with this instance, why did Vegeta mistake a tree trunk for Goku? That’s an embarrassing error for a master fighter. I doubt it would happen with someone whose vision can scan across entire planets or observe the very atoms around us.

Now citing DBGT of all things in the first places brings up it's own issues. GT was just full of non sense. To prove my point Goku kept teleporting at from distance away instead of right infront or behind him as he has done in the past. Note that super 17 only tags him once Goku starts moving in and giving him enough time to act.

For example against Cell who too is an android and should be able to do the exact same thing. Goku teleported right behind him and punched him. Not even having to move an inch forward. Cell clearly new where he was and could hear him but that didn't save him.

I didn’t expect clean sailing with this approach if I’m honest but I figured I should try this counter out in an actual DBZ debate for once. You’re not wrong that GT Goku had inconsistencies in his fighting though.

However regarding Cell you’re overlooking the element of surprise. Cell was still unaware of the Instant Transmission technique since it was not part of Goku’s DNA at the time it was collected by Gero. He was caught off guard by it allowing Goku to land a hit with his speed. Superman is used to fighting opponents with a variety of powersets and can plan a counter attack for them.

This is not out of the realm of what DBZ characters can do. Goku himself can sense the flow of air currents to sense someone. He does here against Yakon in planet which was completely dark and Goku couldn't see a single thing. Cell who has his DNA should also be able to do this. While Vegeta likely can too if Goku is able to.

I should have accounted for this in hindsight, Goku can do the same thing as well.

Also this still won't help against Goku using Instant Transmission to avoid attacks. Super 17 could only tag him when Goku came at him after teleporting. Avoiding attacks like he did against Cell's kamehameha and Vegeta's punches are still something Superman can't combat.

Just knowing where Goku is, is not enough. Super 17 was already faster than Goku, and GT Goku was acting like and Idiot. And I have shown that in canon there are two instnaces of where the person knew where Goku was but still couldn't do anything about it. I think that should atleast discount the noncanon example used here.

17 still predicted where Goku was going to be which allowed him to counter it even if the circumstances were dodgy.

Still, even assuming my IT counter no longer works, there is still the fact that Goku does not consistently use IT either. Based on the fights with Cell and Buu, he only used IT a couple of times. He didn’t use IT against Android 19 which would have been very useful in avoiding the Android’s energy absorption hands or against Majiin Vegeta where he knew that any damage done to him would be used as energy to revive Majiin Buu. Goku had learned IT in both fights yet did not use it. So Goku’s in character fighting style may prevent him from using IT at crucial moments when Superman attacks him. Goku’s superior speed alone is not fast enough to keep away from Superman.

Stamina

Kaioken has always had this problem, it's why Goku only ever used it short bursts. And Goku stopped using the technique once he achieved the SSJ form. Only bringing it back later in Super. Seeing how this eoz Goku starting in his SSJ3 Form, he won't be using Kaio-ken in this fight. So fatigue caused by the using Kaoi-ken won't really be a problem.

It is a problem exclusive to the Kaio-Ken transformation which won’t be used in this fight, however it is still an example of Goku quickly tiring out after overexerting his body and ki. Hence why I cited it as an example of Goku’s low stamina.

Now I do disagree with this. There is nothing in that scan that suggest the form was making the virus stronger. He was suffering from a heart diseases at the point and this was very clear when he was in his base form as well. We seeing him huffing and Tien makes not of how out of breath he already is going into the fight. If he was this tiered from just flying, then obivously getting into a fight would drain him more.

Goku was able to use the form throuhgout his fight Frieza without any sort of loss of stamina or energy. Even later users of the form like Trunks and Vegeta were able to sue form with ease and without any noticeable fatigue. Now that's not to say it doesn't put a strain on the body. It does, however it is no where near the level of strain the KK had and it isn't signifcant enough to make an issue. But on top of that. Goku did spend almost an entire year in the ROSAT to master the form perfectly anyway. And he managed to use the form with out it's negative side effects.

It’s very clearly shown in the manga that Goku was nowhere near as powerful as he should have been. Piccolo says Goku as a Super Saiyan should be way more ‘staggering’ than he was in the fight against Android 19. Which implies that the heart virus was dampening Goku’s power in the Super Saiyan form. Prior to that, Piccolo also noted that Goku was rushing the battle and giving it everything he had immediately.

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Your second point depends on how much energy Goku was using in the fight with Frieza though. Plus, the Super Saiyan form is stated to put a strain on the body, both the manga and the anime confirm this. Moreover, Goku spending an entire year mastering the ROSAT is immediately undermined when Goku used his Kamehameha on Cell causing his energy level to plummet. That is a clear negative side effect.

Now Kamehameha's do drain Goku for sure. Though as a SSJ3 he is seemingly able to fire multiple ones during the fight. As seen in his anime fight with Beerus and Kid Buu. And even his Fat Buu fight it didn't seem to do much to him. That aside, Goku's is not going to need to fire multiple planetary kamehameha's in this fight. One planetary kamehameha hitting Superman would do significant damage and atleast knock him out. So while it does drain him, Goku would only need to fire one or two of these anyway, to win the fight.

We don’t know how powerful those Kamehameha’s against Kid Buu were, you have no way of estimating Goku’s ki output with each one. One planetary Kamehameha is not going to knock Superman out based on what I have shown, in fact I believe it will drain Goku’s chi reserves significantly as shown whenever Goku charges up powerful attacks and fail to KO Clark. Thus Goku will be drained and Superman will have an easier time overpowering him.

Super Saiyan 3 is a hard form to maintain. But the situaiton with Kid Buu is different from the one here. Goku needed to charge for a while so that he would have been able to pull of a powerful enough attack to end Kid Buu. We see that the level of attack that was required to permanently put down Kid Buu for good. A spirit bomb that had the energy of the people on Earth, Namek and otherworld. So Goku failed to charge long enough to get that level of energy and it ended up backfiring.

However while fighting Kid Buu he was able to match him evenly and would have ended the fight on multiple occasions if not for Kid buu coming back from pretty much every attack he came back from every attack. He was also able to use the form against Beerus in both the anime and Manga without having any major loss in energy. Yes the form only lasts for so long and in the end it does wear of. But Goku knows this, and it will only force him to go all out the moment the battle begins instead of holding back his attacks.

He had wasted a lot of his energy fighting Kid Buu and trying to destroy him hence when he tried to charge up his ki to perform a powerful attack, he failed to charge up enough ki and instead reverted to base form. I don’t see why the situation is different between the Kid Buu fight and any other use of the form.

Goku was tiring from the battle though and was clearly tired afterwards, stating that the Super Saiyan 3 form takes too much chi to use whilst alive. I feel like you’ve ignored this crucial information in favour of a misinterpretation of what happens when Goku uses SSJ3. It is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. Just because he did well against Kid Buu does not negate how fatigued Goku was afterwards. I’m surprised you’re using the fight with Beerus as an example of the form’s ability to perform. Beerus beat SSJ3 Goku in record time and Goku stated in the anime he could only use that form for a short time. He only fought Beerus for a couple minutes at best, that won’t be enough time to beat Superman I assure you.

Superman certainly does have a Stamina advantage. So the question is can Superman tank all of Goku's attacks before Goku's SSJ3 Form ends up running out. Superman has good durability but from what I have seen, when he has come up against the level of attack Goku can produce, it has ended up being very taxing on him and even knocking him out.

Well this falls more under the previous section but that is the pertinent question. I believe Superman can tank those blasts due to his best planetary and star level resistance feats compared with Goku’s best energy blasts. Of course, Superman could defeat Goku before the SSJ3 form runs out of energy due to his strength and power.

Skill

I don't get what you mean lacks knowledge of coming up with a plant. Superman is most certainly smarter than Goku. But I don't think Goku's stupidity for the lack of a better word has ever been a problem in battle. There are many instances of him being able to figure out weaknesses of his opponents and coming up with strategies to defeat them. Instances such as Botamo or Yakon are good examples of this. However I will admit I may have underestimated Superman's combat smarts.

What I meant to say here is Superman can apply his intellect in combat in a way Goku cannot. Superman has a genius level intellect and has done things like calculated Shrapnel’s melting point mid battle or deduce enemy’s weaknesses whilst fighting them. In terms of pure combat smarts, Goku easily surpasses Superman but his lack of an education could allow Superman to surprise him in a way Goku as a dedicated martial artist wouldn’t expect Superman to fight.

I figured pressure points would be brought up at some point. Goku has dealt with users who utilize Pressure point attacks. The Major exampels of this would be Hit and Mercenary Tao. Now Hit's pressure point attacks are a major part of his powerset. Which Goku ended up having to deal with on multiple occasions. Goku did get tagged by Hit a couple of times in base form. Yet was still able to fight afterwards. He even able to do so after taking a bunch of attacks as SSSB and SSB KK though that is a far stronger version of Goku being used here, pressure points usually bypass durability so Goku being able to get back up is fairly impressive. And should show pressure points won't have too much of an affect on him.

Did Hit use pressure points on Goku in the manga though? And as a Super Saiyan before he used god ki? I know Hit used a pressure point on Goku’s heart in the anime but not in the manga. As for Tao, he may be more skilled than Clark but Superman has successfully used pressure points on enemies with superhuman stats such as Mongul II and a Kryptonian soldier. It’s possible then he can use them on Goku too.

Well as per are agreement, and just to let the voters know, we decided that this would likely break the BFR rule put in place so for the sake of this debate this won't be allowed.

I agreed to that with you privately and I’ll adhere to that agreement. Superman still has a way to suffocate Goku though. He can create a whirlwind to asphyxiate Goku instead like so

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Superman can easily whip up a 500 mile a minute whirlwind to suck Goku’s oxygen away like he did against The Hat in Action Comics #775 despite The Hat having a magical forcefield protecting his body.

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And if you doubt Superman’s ability to affect Goku with a whirlwind, in Superman/Batman #4 Superman’s whirlwind catches multiple high tiers off balance at once including Captain Atom, Major Force, Power Girl and John Stewart.

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I think Goku's skill advantage will mainly come into play to help avoid attacks from him. It also allow him to adapt to Superman's fighting style and find ways around it. Or even us his own moves against him. He was able to learn all of Piccolo's moves in just a single fight. He was also able to instantly learn the kamehameha, a technique that took Roshi years to master.

Whilst the Piccolo scan is undoubtedly impressive for Goku’s adaptability at fighting, I would point out that Goku has still been in trouble when fighting more powerful opponents than him. He was barely able to affect Frieza outside of a couple of techniques before attaining the Super Saiyan form and as stated in The Resurrection F saga of Super, Frieza had never trained a day in his life. He also had trouble against Kid Buu’s power, although I know the regeneration was the bigger problem. And Beerus was able to stomp SSJ3 Goku with just a finger flick and neck chop.

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Those are 3 instances in Dragon Ball where skill has been trumped by raw power.

Final Conclusions

I believe we’ve covered our respective advantages several times and this final post alone has rehashed multiple points of discussion. So, to close my end of the debate out, I decided to round off my post with 3 ways that I think Superman can defeat Goku.

How Superman can Win

1) Beat the Super out of the Saiyan

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The simplest and most obvious way for Superman to win. Most of Superman’s physical feats outclass Goku’s physical stats. Although the King Kai planet strike is impressive, the Shadow Moon feat is even more quantifiably impressive. Most importantly, whilst Goku ‘may’ be able to take a planet busting energy blast or explosion, you’ve admitted his physical durability is not nearly as good. Where Superman can give as good as he gets from Goku, Goku will not stand up well to a few of Superman’s best punches. In a fist fight, Goku is very likely to take fatal damage from Superman’s blows and be left in a critical, if not deceased condition.

2) Take his breath away

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Despite Goku’s advantages, we’ve established that he requires oxygen to live. Although Superman won’t fly him him into space due to the no BFR rule, he can still remove Goku’s oxygen with a super speed whirlwind. Goku will be knocked off balance, unable to concentrate and losing air rapidly. Whilst Superman tends to use whirlwinds to incapacitate or render opponents unconscious, here he’s free to create a deadly cyclone.

3) Instant Lobotomy

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Although Superman hasn’t performed a heat vision lobotomy in canon, alternate versions such as Injustice Superman and Justice Lord Superman demonstrate that a willing to kill Superman would use his powers in this way. And as canon Superman has the potential to use his powers in this lethal manner as demonstrated against Manchester Black, a willing to kill Superman could fry Goku’s brain with a well placed burst of heat vision like in the Death Battle rematch.

In conclusion:

Superman is stronger, tougher and overall more powerful than Goku. He can do some serious damage to Goku with his strikes, tank Goku's ki blasts, perceive and react to his combat speed and has several ways to put Goku down for good. It will be a tough and difficult fight but in the end I believe the Man of Steel has what it takes to emerge victorious over his Super Saiyan foe.

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#134 Posted by Lvenger (36344 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: I've made my final post ET. You can take all the time you need to come up with your finishing post then we can open this up for votes.

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#135 Posted by Lvenger (36344 posts) - - Show Bio
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Whew took me all week to write this massive post up. Hopefully it's worth the wait audience.

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#137 Posted by emperorthanos- (16779 posts) - - Show Bio

@theknowledgeofm: please delete your post. This is a cav so it's between just me and lvenger

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#138 Posted by emperorthanos- (16779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: looks good. It will certainly take me a some time but will try to post as soon as I can

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#139 Posted by Lvenger (36344 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: It took me ages to get this down so no worries. I look forward to your final reply.

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#140 Posted by HigherPower (12407 posts) - - Show Bio

Legendary debate. Hats off to both of you

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#141 Posted by SuperGoku17 (7220 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#142 Posted by AbelHsu (3533 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V...

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#143 Posted by the_red_viper (12888 posts) - - Show Bio

In case my initial comment in this thread did not imply it, then T4V, lol.

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#144 Edited by EzraArcher (1171 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys did an amazing job. T4V :D

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#145 Edited by MUVDCU (1070 posts) - - Show Bio

This is one of the closest/best debates I've seen thus far. You are doing a great job guys.

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#146 Edited by iloveher19934 (51 posts) - - Show Bio

tag me for voting.

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#147 Posted by DottiestMoon (1423 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#148 Posted by Cerberus369616 (2174 posts) - - Show Bio

TFV, always happy to see a good Superman v Goku debate

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#149 Posted by blackpantherisb (7573 posts) - - Show Bio

Finally! This is great.