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#51 Posted by Yarva (2937 posts) - - Show Bio

Has goku ever been used to win a cav?

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#52 Edited by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio
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#53 Posted by Yarva (2937 posts) - - Show Bio
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#54 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: OK I'm back now and I wrote up my post whilst I was away. Expect it shortly.

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#55 Posted by Ganstaz003 (1217 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought comic vs dragon ball z battles were banned?

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#56 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought comic vs dragon ball z battles were banned?

not in cavs

@lvenger said:

@emperorthanos: OK I'm back now and I wrote up my post whilst I was away. Expect it shortly.

cool can't wait

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#57 Posted by Ganstaz003 (1217 posts) - - Show Bio
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#58 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18583 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#59 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos:

Introduction

Superman

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Bio

Pretty much everybody on this site knows who Superman is. He was rocketed from the doomed planet Krypton, raised by The Kents in Smallville, gained extraordinary powers from our yellow sun and chose to use his abilities to protect his adopted homeworld as its greatest champion known as Superman.

Powers and Abilities

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Superhuman Speed
  • Superhuman Stamina
  • Flight
  • Superhuman Senses
  • Heat Vision
  • Solar Flare
  • Super Breath/Freeze Breath
  • Healing Factor
  • Expert Hand to Hand Combatant
  • Genius Level Intellect

Strength

Unlike the rest of this debate I’m just gonna lay my cards all out on the table for brute strength since it’s one of the areas we’re likely to agree on. Superman is known for accomplishing Herculean feats of brute strength and although Goku is clearly superhumanly strong (above 40 tons heh) he just can’t compare to Superman’s consistent, let alone high end lifting feats. Between his Post Crisis and New 52 versions, Superman has 4 moon level feats (3 w/ assists) and 5 planetary feats (2 w/ assists) without sundipping. Below are some I personally consider the best;

First up, Superman along with Kyle Rayner take turns holding the moon back against ancient alchemical engines that increased the G-force on the moon causing the moon to fall towards the Earth. Superman isn’t shown pushing the moon by himself in these scans but they do state he was taking over for Kyle and Kyle is seen with the League instead of Superman later on (JLA 80 Page Giant #3 – The Century War II – Credit to Toptom for the issue no.)

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He’s pulled the Earth along with Green Lantern back into its proper orbit whilst Starbreaker was using his power to move the Earth into the sun (Justice League of America #29)

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Although a certain video calculation came up with the figure of Superman exerting 6.6 quintillion tons of force, it obviously didn't account for Hal’s participation which is stated by Superman in this instance. Still, even if we halved this calculation, Superman was exerting 3.3 quintillion tons of force.

He’s moved Warworld into the Phantom Zone which was stated to be world sized (Batman/Superman Annual #1)

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His most famous feat of strength in recent years is benching the weight of the Earth for 5 days whilst only just breaking a sweat (Superman #13)

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Lastly, Superman’s best feat of planetary strength is moving Brainiac’s ship, which was at least several times larger than the Earth itself and falling at 36,000 mph, from crashing into the Earth with Martian Manhunter’s help (Action Comics #34)

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I’m not gonna even bother trying to calc that last one but I know it would have taken planetary + strength to pull off. Basically, if Goku tries to grapple with Superman as he has with Perfect Cell(I was trying to find an actual scan from the manga rather than a cover since it was shown in the anime fight Goku and Cell had) or Majiin Vegeta he wouldn’t come out victorious.

Striking Power

In contrast, I'll start off small for Superman's striking power even though I believe he holds the edge. Goku has some impressive feats in this regard but so does Superman. At his earliest and weakest power level, Superman was exchanging blows with Doomsday hard enough that they shattered windows from Metropolis to Gotham City (Superman: Day of Doom #2)

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He’s one shotted a Kryptonian soldier when ticked off (Action Comics #873)

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He’s three shotted Mongul II (Infinite Crisis #1)

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He’s levelled a mountain in a single blow (Superman #8)

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Lastly for now, he’s hit two giant robots out of Metropolis into the sea with a wrecking ball.

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Durability

Durability will be a major advantage for Superman in this fight over Goku. Where Goku tends to evade powerful attacks, Superman can take them head on with minimal damage. And luckily most of his durability showings are against blunt force and energy attacks which are Goku’s main fighting techniques. Superman has taken the brunt of city busting blasts that would have levelled Metropolis (Superman: The Man of Steel #122 and Batman/Superman Annual #1)

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He’s shrugged off a 10 megaton explosion without a scratch (Superman #6)

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He’s tanked being kicked across the state of Utah into Colorado and having a mountain collapse on top of him (Superman Unchained #3)

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Even a powerhouse like Icon hurt his hand by hitting Superman with his strongest punch (Justice League of America #27)

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These are only a primer for Superman’s durability but these feats make it pretty clear that Goku’s regular attacks and ki blasts are not going to phase Superman at all. And when Goku goes for the big gun attacks, even then Superman has the fortitude to resist them.

Combat Speed & Reflexes

Speed is undoubtedly a trademark of DBZ characters in their fights but amongst comic powerhouses Superman is one of the top speed blitzers. Superman has the superior travel speed feats but Goku does hold the advantage in combat speed. However, Superman should not be hugely outclassed by Goku’s speed in their fight. For those who are unaware of how Superman uses and controls his speed, these scans from Superman #217 should explain it. Plus he catches a bullet at point blank range from miles out.

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He can easily fight at hypersonic speeds (Action Comics #788)

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He’s blitzed Parasite away before Parasite could react to use his powers on him (Justice League of America #14)

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As for reaction times, for starters, he has 3 millisecond reaction feats:

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  1. Reacts in a millisecond to get through Brainiac’s forcefield (Superman: Last Stand of New Krypton #1)
  2. Acts within a hundredth of a second (Action Comics #26)
  3. Perceives events within a millisecond (Batman/Superman #6)

Goku needs to be proven to be much faster than Superman has been able to perceive and react to otherwise the speed edge will not be enough of a trump card for Goku.

Heat Vision/Freeze Breath

Again Goku holds the edge here in ranged destructive power but Superman has the means of damaging or restraining Goku with his ranged attacks. Goku is lacking in temperature resistance so Superman’s ranged abilities are particularly suited to being more effective on Goku. Superman’s heat vision has been measured at nuclear level temperature (Superman #217)

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It has overloaded the self replicating armour of a Kryptonian battleship (Superman #653)

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As for freeze breath, even when weakened from red sun radiation, Superman can still freeze a large spaceship disguised as part of Metropolis (Superman #19)

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And he could freeze enough water to hold up The Burj Khalifa, the tallest skyscraper in the world, from collapsing (Superman Unchained #2)

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In closing

I think this should be enough for an opener. We've obviously got a lot to cover in this debate between stat comparisons, battle tactics and the advantage/disadvantage ratio so I'll only make one last point. Both our characters are obviously top tier elite heavy hitters in their respective worlds, that goes without saying. However, one way I see the contrasts between these two is through an analogy of cannons. Because you see;

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Superman is the all around cannon, sturdy, quick to fire and has a hefty amount of firepower. Goku is more like a glass cannon though. Even if he does pack more of a punch than Superman, his sturdiness does not match his firepower.

Anyway your turn @emperorthanos I look forward to your response.

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#60 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: And so it begins. Nice opener. my post will be up by the end of the weekend

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#61 Posted by TheKinfing (11860 posts) - - Show Bio
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#62 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio
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#63 Posted by DarkPrimeSovereign (1125 posts) - - Show Bio

TFV.

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#64 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Did you get the 3 day ban for replying to WITB PM things? i always post from the front page and always forget to read the "dont post past this or you get banned" on later pages...

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#65 Posted by nobunaga101 (1236 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#66 Posted by nobunaga101 (1236 posts) - - Show Bio
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#67 Posted by Eto (5336 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#68 Posted by MightyKalEl (2209 posts) - - Show Bio
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#69 Posted by The-Seeffiss17 (1753 posts) - - Show Bio
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#70 Posted by Doofasa (2229 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please. This is going to be epic.

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#72 Posted by The_Stern_ritter (566 posts) - - Show Bio

Fans vs Fans shitstorm is coming, lol.

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#73 Posted by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: CAN YOU F****** POST ALREADY I CANT TAKE THIS ANYMOREEEE

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#74 Posted by deactivated-5a2b0053414c5 (8165 posts) - - Show Bio

Jeez guys, people need to delete comments lol. 2nd page, and all of it is random posts with only 1 post for the debater lol.

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#75 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio
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#76 Posted by Tantani (2943 posts) - - Show Bio

This look interesting

T4V

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#77 Posted by Gaoron (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#78 Posted by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio
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#79 Edited by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Here it is.

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Goku

Bio

Goku is the main protagonist of the Dragon Ball metaseries created by Akira Toriyama. He is the adoptive grandson of Grandpa Gohan, the son of Bardock and Gine, the husband of Chi-Chi, the father of Gohan and Goten, the grandfather of Pan, and later the great-great-grandfather of Goku Jr. Cheerful, courageous and also a bit naive, Goku is a Saiyan originally sent to Earth as an infant with the mission to destroy it. However, an accident alters his memory, causing him to grow up pure-hearted and later become Earth's greatest defender, as well as the informal leader of the Z Fighters.Throughout his life, he trains hard and strives to be the greatest warrior possible, while at the same time using his amazing strength and skills to uphold peace.

Powers and abilities

Goku's power, like every other character in DBZ comes from his ki energy. He can use it to amplify his own abilties or use to as blasts. Goku can increase his energy over the course of the battle through several ssj transformations.

List of his abilities:

  • Super Strength
  • Super Speed
  • Super Durability
  • Super Senses
  • Flight
  • Teleportation
  • Telepathy
  • Telekinesis
  • Transformation
  • Ki Manipulation
  • Genius in battle.
  • Expert Martial artist.

I will try not use scaling from other characters as much as I can possible can, some aspects of Goku do require scaling more than others.

Speed

OK speed is going to be one of the most important aspect of this battle. Now you have already admitted that Goku does hold a speed advantage in terms of combat speed while he lacks the travel speed to compare both of which I agree with. But I have to show whether the speed difference make much of a difference in the fight itself. Most of his speed feats come from his weaker forms in base or ssj. I'm not going to be using any ssj multipliers so say how fast goku would be later on. But I think it is safe to assume that his speed forms is superior to when he produced these feats.

Lets start of with Goku back in during his fight with Piccolo.

Goku and Piccolo were able to move so fast that they literally became invisible and were moving faster than the godlyeyes of Kami's who is able to keep track of the entire planet at once. Mind you this is different from just being FTE as there is no trace of them and that is something characters much weaker have done. This should really close to light speed if not surpassing it especially since even Roshi someone who was able to see his own relativistic blast hit the moon whilst the others didn't know what happened, is unable to see them fight.

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To continues this we see in the Saiyan saga that even fodder characters such as saibamen and Yamcha are able to move so fast that the only way to actually see them is by tracking their energy signatures.

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Goku was also able to have a full fight with Vegeta in the span of a heart beat. Goku's akoi-ken is stated to last a heartbeat and in his fight with Vegeta he is able to blast him around in the one kaioken burst. It was stated by goku that his kaio-ken lasts for a heartbeat only. Now this may seem like hyperbole but incomparison to speed feats done prior to this and feats like what Roshi and Krillin. This doesn't contrast what has been shown so far.

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Piccolo's blast as also able to blast the moon away in a single panel. this must mean his blast moves at FTL speed considering the distance. This was also quicker than the previous blast to moon by Roshi showing how the the stronger the character the faster the blast. Now this was a basic blast by Piccolo which several characters later on were able to dodge, including Nappa who Goku was able to blitz himself

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Now getting to Namek. Goku reached a new level of speed by then At this point even character who could use sensing to keep track of fighter couldn't see his movements. Even those with scouters were unable to keep track of his movements.

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Goku is able to move around in quick short bursts as you will see above. It's not just simple flight but his actual body movement. He uses it often in battle to blitz enemies before they can even react as he did to Recoome.

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Now let's get into to his fight with Frieza. Frieza as well has light speed attacks similar to Piccolo, the first of the being his death beam. When he first fired it none of the Z fighters could see. And all Piccolo saw was a flash of light. He was unable to react to this beam, this is despite the fact that he himself has an attack that can move at speeds faster than light which he is is able see. Also bare in mind that everyone present is stronger than the Piccolo who moon busted. (this continues the idea of stronger character, faster blasts)

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While Goku on the other hand is able to deflect the blasts one after the other with ease despite the fact that others could not even react to them. He as able to do so for multiple beams fired with ease in his base form.

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Goku also managed to escape Frieza's paralyzing light ball at the last instant. Oh and before you say it. Paralyzing light is the description of the attack. Not it's name as you can see Frieza never onces utters a name. So Goku reacted to exploding light at the last minute. These are two different examples showing that Frieza's attacks are light speed and none of this comes from the name of the attacks.

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As an SSJ he dodged the same light blasts except Frieza was now using far more of his power, so his attack would be faster. Considering we have seen the stronger you are the faster the blasts.

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Cell's Kamehamaha also moves at light-speed or faster based on the fact that is quickly cross the earth's atmosphere and goes into space similar to Roshis's kamehameha. Except Cell's blast should be faster(There is no moon to compare this to because it is destroyed, but the blasts is clearly far into space) Goku was able to react to it and avoid it thanks to his Instant transmission should show he himself has FTL reactions.

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With all these examples I think it is fairly evident that the blasts of the DBZ characters are FTL at least this is relevant because characters have been shown time and time again to be faster than the blasts used. And the fact that Goku is able to react to and avoid them shows he should have ftl reactions..

Now these feats are all done by Goku in base or ssj. To judge how he is in later forms would require the use of other characters(e.g something ssj2 gohan was able to do should be something ssj2 goku can do as well) which I will hold off from doing just for now.

However another major thing that will aid Goku in this battle in terms of speed is his instant transmission. This will most certainly come in handy during the fight. I have already posted one feat above of him using it in combat to avoid Cell. And he can do it several times during this battle. As long as Goku can react to something, he is able to use instant transmission to get out of it. I will get into how much this will aid him in my next post.

Strength

I can admit that in terms of strength Goku is inferior to Superman in terms of lifting. Goku doesn't really have any feats in this regard that can come close Superman. So instead I will go straight into Goku's striking ability as that is far more relevant to this battle. I'm again going to start with Goku's earlier forms. However Goku does have superior feats in his stronger forms so no need for any power scaling here.

So first I will show his fight with Frieza. In his battle Goku manged to get behind Frieza and drop kicking him. This resulted in the Goku knocking him through multiple islands. Now Frieza was fine after the this but it was an impressive feat for Goku to pull of.

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Goku as a ssj then fought Frieza at his 100%. Goku was able to match him blow for blow. Goku was able to first draw blood from Frieza, then he took a couple of his hits before beating him down again. When you take into account Frieza' uncanny durability these feats really do a good job of showcasing how strong Goku is.

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Now I will show why this feat is really impressive. First Frieza himself has some pretty good striking feats. Prior to his fight Goku, Frieza battled Vegeta who was going to blow up the entire planet in an attack again Frieza. So Frieza responds by kicking the planetary blast away into space casually. Piccolo even states that he just deflected it with kick showing it is a strength feat. So this makes Goku going blow to blow with him all the more impressive.

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I also mentioned Frieza's durability earlier and this is why. Goku being able to damage Frieza and even draw blood from is impressive because Frieza himself has shown planetary durability. Frieza when he had little to no energy left managed to survive the explosion of the namek it self.

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Goku also has Kiai which he can use against Superman. He can use through his fists or he could just stare and something and make it burst. Here is one example of him using Kiai against Burter and Jeice to send them flying away from him at the same time.

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Durability

Goku's durability is not the greatest, but he should have planetary durability based on what we have seen. And his forms do increase his durability so as an SSJ he should be able to tank the majority of Superman's attacks. His heat vision won't be doing much.

Anyway on to his feats. As a ssj he no sold all of Frieza's energy and physical attack with ease. Frieza was a casual planet buster by this point by feats so Goku being able to tank all of his attacks with ease shows just how impressive his durability is in this form.

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Now here you can see Goku tanking hits from Frieza in his final form. Frieza displayed planet busting power back in his first form when he destroyed planet Vegeta with a single strike. This should should that at least in terms of energy durability Goku has planetary durability.

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now in terms of physicals attacks Goku also tanked several attacks from Frieza. I already showed Frieza's striking strength so tanking hits from is pretty impressive. Goku also tanked a bull rush from Frieza that sent him flying to the bottom of the ocean. Now we don't really know how deep the ocean, but they were no near the shore or anything so it must have been pretty deep.

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Now I will admit, Superman's more powerful strikes will likely be too much for Goku to deal with but that is where Goku's speed will come in. However I will save that for later as you yet to bring those feats up.

Energy Manipulation

This is Goku's biggest advantage in the battle. Goku should be a casual planet buster by the end of dragonball. And there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest. Now you may say Goku himself has never blown up a planet, which is true. However Goku has never had a reason to do so. He has alway diverted his attacks way from the planet or redirect planetary attacks himself.

In his weaker from's Goku is able to use planetary attacks through the use of his Kamehameha, The kamehameha is basically Goku focusing all his energy into one point as stated by Raditz. So let's first start of by showing what Kamehameha weaker Character can do. Back in Early Dragon Ball, a full power Roshi used the kamehameha to destroy the moon intself. Now Goku has long since surpassed Roshi so his Kamehameha would be more powerful.

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Now there are two instance of moon busting both by characters weaker than Goku. Piccolo did with much more ease that Roshi did but both are inferior to Goku. But now I will get into the planetary stuff. The first evidence of planetary attacks in DBZ is between Goku and Vegeta. Where Vegeta was going to blow up the planet with his galick gun, and Goku was able to redirect the blast away from the Planet with his own Kamehameha.

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Considering weaker character have been able bust moons, it's not to far fetched for these characters to be able to destroy the planet with their most powerful blast. Further evidence of Vegeta' being planetary is the fact that prior to firing the blast he had shook the entire plane just by displaying his power to Goku. So his statement of being able to bust the planet should be legitimate.

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Goku uses a planet busting later in Cell Saga against Cell. As you can see, pretty much everyone goes hysteria the moment Goku starts charging up because they believe he is going to use from up there. Now Goku uses instant transmission infront of Cell to make sure he doesn't hit the planet with his attack.

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A couple of things I would like to point out about this attack. First the charge time was relatively low, the anime loves to drags things out but it doesn't actually take that long. Second thing I would like to point out is that this attack did quite a bit of damage to Cell and drained him of his energy. This is despite the fact that Cell had earlier taken a planetary blast from Vegeta and was in much better shape afterwards. This should show that Goku's kamehameha here is a more powerful attack that the one used by say Frieza or Saiyan Saga Vegeta. So just planetary durability wouldn't cut it against him.

Skill/Battle Smarts

An underrated aspect of Goku is the fact that he really is a genius when it comes to battle. Superman is smarter than him in general but not in a fight. Goku spends every time of the day training. While Superman is busy taking care of random criminals, being a reporter or spending time with his family, Goku is training. This training has led to him surpassing pretty much every supposed god he has met bar Beerus. This has led to Goku knowing being able to come up with counters to his opponents.

To start I will bring up the example of his fight with Frieza yet again. Frieza's example is the most relevant because he couldn't sense energy which is the case with Superman. Goku figured this out and began exploiting this weakness.

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This will be a key point in this battle. Superman may struggle to see Goku blitzing around. I am aware of Superman's lightspeed perceptions but there are people DBZ that posses those as well yet they were unable to keep up with Goku. Even the scouters have been shown to sense power's across the planet but it was still too keep up with Goku.

Goku is also a pretty skilled fighter. And when he faces an opponent that is stronger than him he tends to compensate with the use of his skill and battle smarts. Cell, Frieza and Vegeta are examples of fights where Goku uses his technique to compensate for his lack of power and I assure he will be doing so here, since he knows he is facing someone with superior strength to him. Here is his fight displaying some martial arts skill.

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Goku should definitely be a more skilled fighter than Superman. In terms of h2h and just the number of techniques he posses.

Initial thoughts

So yeah we have a lot of ground to cover in this debate. I believe that Goku should have a speed edge in the battle especially when you take into account the use of instant transmission. However I don't see Goku blitzing Superman, the speed advantage he has will help compensate for his durability which I will get into. Now while superman does have an edge in durability, Goku has the advantage of damage output. His energy attacks are more powerful and more destructive. And I believe that he has enough to overcome Superman's durability before the reverse happens.

As for your canon metaphor. Well this would be Superman

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Versus Goku

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#80 Edited by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio
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#81 Edited by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Ok there's my opener. Just a sample of what Goku can do. I tried to limit the abc logic and power scaling as much as I could. Though I did use a little here and there which I apologize for.

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#82 Posted by blackpantherisb (7337 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#83 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos:

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Very nice from what I've skimmed thus far. This should be an entertaining discussion.

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#84 Edited by the_red_viper (12863 posts) - - Show Bio
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#85 Edited by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos:

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Counters

Strength

So instead I will go straight into Goku's striking ability as that is far more relevant to this battle.

Agreed, that's why I got Superman's lifting feats out of the way in the intro so that striking could be the main focus in this section.

So first I will show his fight with Frieza. In his battle Goku manged to get behind Frieza and drop kicking him. This resulted in the Goku knocking him through multiple islands. Now Frieza was fine after the this but it was an impressive feat for Goku to pull of.

A decent showing for Goku in regards to destruction but I have shown Superman achieving a similar feat.

Goku as a ssj then fought Frieza at his 100%. Goku was able to match him blow for blow. Goku was able to first draw blood from Frieza, then he took a couple of his hits before beating him down again. When you take into account Frieza' uncanny durability these feats really do a good job of showcasing how strong Goku is.

On this point alone I do agree it is a pretty good feat for Goku's striking power in his ability to hurt an incredibly durable foe. Still, Superman has the feats to indicate he could do the same given how he's hurt some of the toughest beings in his universe.

Now I will show why this feat is really impressive. First Frieza himself has some pretty good striking feats. Prior to his fight Goku, Frieza battled Vegeta who was going to blow up the entire planet in an attack again Frieza. So Frieza responds by kicking the planetary blast away into space casually. Piccolo even states that he just deflected it with kick showing it is a strength feat. So this makes Goku going blow to blow with him all the more impressive.

Here though I have some concerns with your claim. I find Frieza kicking away Vegeta's planetary blast to be more of a ki control feat than a strength feat. For one, this is a massive energy beam being fired which means it's not entirely solid and thus would require at least an element of ki control for Frieza to touch it and kick it away. Secondly, many DBZ characters have controlled ki in a similar way. Like Frieza in his third form brushing away Gohan's blast whilst barely touching it or Nappa deflecting Gohan's blast.

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I also mentioned Frieza's durability earlier and this is why. Goku being able to damage Frieza and even draw blood from is impressive because Frieza himself has shown planetary durability. Frieza when he had little to no energy left managed to survive the explosion of the namek it self.

I expected this when you brought up Frieza's durability. However, there are some differences between the force of a superhumanly strong punch and the force of an exploding planet. Physical attacks can be focused on a specific area, which in Goku’s case was Frieza's body. In contrast, a planet explosion produces a massive burst of energy spreading out from the point of explosion across the blast radius. These are two different kinds of force generally, unless someone is capable of destroying a planet with their bare hands. Furthermore, Frieza's body is stated to be capable of surviving an exploding planet and the vacuum of space before Namek's destruction, which is probably due to his species' physiology. To be clear I'm not saying Frieza doesn't have planetary durability, my point is whether Goku hurting him is proof of planetary striking.

Goku's kiai technique is nothing Superman hasn't handled from more powerful telekinetics. Thus, I'll provide further evidence of Superman's striking power. Superman has one shotted Earth Man whose duplication powers allowed him to copy all the powers of the Legion of Superheroes (Action Comics #863)

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He's destroyed a large alien ship in a single blitz (Superman #204)

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He one shotted Ultraman and Superwoman simultaneously (Trinity #13)

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Lastly, Superman was one shotting Imperiex Probes when he stopped holding back (Action Comics #781 & Adventures of Superman #594)

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The Imperiex Probes were no pushovers either as they defeated most of the Justice League and required either a plot device or a sacrifice from the other heroes to defeat just one or two Imperiex Probes.

Durability

Goku's durability is not the greatest, but he should have planetary durability based on what we have seen. And his forms do increase his durability so as an SSJ he should be able to tank the majority of Superman's attacks. His heat vision won't be doing much.

Planetary durability isn't equivalent to planet busting durability so I'm not wholly opposed to your rating for Goku's durability. However, Dragon Ball characters, specifically Saiyans, are not the best when it comes to durability and tanking attacks. It also doesn't help your point that on the 3 occasions where Goku is faced with a planet busting attack, he either escapes or is killed by the blast. So Super Saiyan or not, he's not going to hold up too well against Superman's attacks and heat vision.

Anyway on to his feats. As a ssj he no sold all of Frieza's energy and physical attack with ease. Frieza was a casual planet buster by this point by feats so Goku being able to tank all of his attacks with ease shows just how impressive his durability is in this form.

That's some neat durability, but despite how easily Goku is tanking those attacks, they're not Frieza's best. I don't need to remind you that Frieza said he held back on his power when he tried to blow up Namek and just destabilised the core instead. It makes sense those attacks would also be Frieza holding back if he is a casual planet buster.

Now here you can see Goku tanking hits from Frieza in his final form. Frieza displayed planet busting power back in his first form when he destroyed planet Vegeta with a single strike. This should should that at least in terms of energy durability Goku has planetary durability.

Frieza busting a planet in his first form is irrelevant when he wasn't using that attack or that level of power in the rest of his fight with Goku. Especially when Frieza stated so in the manga. Still, this is not nearly as bad as the power scaling I've dealt with in the past so it's not too problematic.

now in terms of physicals attacks Goku also tanked several attacks from Frieza. I already showed Frieza's striking strength so tanking hits from is pretty impressive. Goku also tanked a bull rush from Frieza that sent him flying to the bottom of the ocean. Now we don't really know how deep the ocean, but they were no near the shore or anything so it must have been pretty deep.

As far as bullrush blitzes go, Superman's are more powerful than Frieza's by feats. For example, a younger Superman one shotted Solomon Grundy with a bullrush (Superman #676)

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So Superman can blitz hard as well as fast.

Now I will admit, Superman's more powerful strikes will likely be too much for Goku to deal with but that is where Goku's speed will come in. However I will save that for later as you yet to bring those feats up.

Indeed, that is what Goku consistently does when faced with a powerful attack, physical or ki based, he uses his speed to evade it rather than face it head on. Superman's durability allows him to tank those more powerful attacks head on and withstand them far better than Goku could take Superman's best. Even compared to his fellow powerhouses of the DCU, who I would argue are more durable than Goku to, Superman has tanked attacks that KOed them. My first example of this involves scans from our previous CAV regarding Wonder Woman. Here, Superman tanks an explosion from an Imperiex Probe point blank and is still conscious afterwards.

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In contrast, when Wonder Woman cracks an Imperiex Probe open, she is KOed and seriously injured by the same explosion (JLA: Our Worlds at War)

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My second comparison is when Breach (who basically has similar powers to Captain Atom) one shots Martian Manhunter with a blast (Breach #4) yet when Superman fights him alone, he is able to tank several blasts from Breach (Breach #8)

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This is even more impressive when Breach was stated to be growing more powerful before he fought Superman.

Superman has also tanked a morals off Hal Jordan's energy blast and Hal said afterwards that he was going all out at Superman (Superman/Batman #30)

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Moving onto physical attacks, Superman's physical resistance significantly outweighs Goku's. Superman has taken blows from heavy hitters like Black Adam (who Superman states hits harder than Captain Marvel) and Wonder Woman (Wonder Woman #175 & #219)

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Moreover, he's tanked being punched from Metropolis to China (the average distance from America to China is 7,252 miles) and shrugs off a punch that sent him from California to Tokyo, a distance of 5,311 miles (Superman #669)

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Tanking punches that send him across the world faster than any man made aircraft can travel is a lot more impressive than the physical attacks Goku has tanked thus far.

Speed

OK speed is going to be one of the most important aspect of this battle. Now you have already admitted that Goku does hold a speed advantage in terms of combat speed while he lacks the travel speed to compare both of which I agree with. But I have to show whether the speed difference make much of a difference in the fight itself. Most of his speed feats come from his weaker forms in base or ssj. I'm not going to be using any ssj multipliers so say how fast goku would be later on. But I think it is safe to assume that his speed forms is superior to when he produced these feats.

Yep Goku has the combat speed edge, Superman has the travel speed advantage and the former is more relevant in a fight. Speed is indeed going to be one of the most important parts of this fight. Just as you have to show why the speed difference will count in this fight, I have to demonstrate why the speed difference is not big enough to grant Goku the win.

Goku and Piccolo were able to move so fast that they literally became invisible and were moving faster than the godlyeyes of Kami's who is able to keep track of the entire planet at once. Mind you this is different from just being FTE as there is no trace of them and that is something characters much weaker have done. This should really close to light speed if not surpassing it especially since even Roshi someone who was able to see his own relativistic blast hit the moon whilst the others didn't know what happened, is unable to see them fight.

I don't agree with this being anywhere close to a relativistic or lightspeed feat at all. Kami was still a big deal during Dragon Ball but after DBZ, everyone (even Yamcha) outclassed him in terms of speed and power. His power level was below 1,000 and so his speed never increased compared to everyone else’s during the course of DBZ. Let alone Roshi's power level who was below 200 yet it's credible to say he has relativistic perceptions? This is obviously different from street level FTE speed but hypersonic level characters like Iron Man and Speed O Sound Sonic have performed similar speed feats.

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There are no blurs or afterimages because none of the other characters can see them. That does not logically equal a relativistic-FTL feat instead of a hypersonic feat. This is much more likely to be a hypersonic or even high-hypersonic speed feat. Claiming this is a relativistic or lightspeed feat is a clearly unproven assertion. Lightspeed feats can be proven by the Frieza saga, not at the end of Dragon Ball.

To continues this we see in the Saiyan saga that even fodder characters such as saibamen and Yamcha are able to move so fast that the only way to actually see them is by tracking their energy signatures.

Really? Saibaman and Yamcha? Come on now, a basic speed feat like this eclipses anything those weaklings have done.

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They're fodder in DBZ and they're fodder compared to Superman, including in speed.

Goku was also able to have a full fight with Vegeta in the span of a heart beat. Goku's akoi-ken is stated to last a heartbeat and in his fight with Vegeta he is able to blast him around in the one kaioken burst. It was stated by goku that his kaio-ken lasts for a heartbeat only. Now this may seem like hyperbole but incomparison to speed feats done prior to this and feats like what Roshi and Krillin. This doesn't contrast what has been shown so far.

Eh it does sound kind of hyperbolic given all that happens in Goku's fight with Vegeta and the capabilities of Saiyan saga level characters. It's still a solid feat and Goku has long since surpassed this speed.

Piccolo's blast as also able to blast the moon away in a single panel. this must mean his blast moves at FTL speed considering the distance. This was also quicker than the previous blast to moon by Roshi showing how the the stronger the character the faster the blast. Now this was a basic blast by Piccolo which several characters later on were able to dodge, including Nappa who Goku was able to blitz himself

No it does not mean the blast was FTL because Nappa has no lightspeed feats nor does any other Saiyan saga character. It also doesn't prove Piccolo's blast was faster than Roshi's because there was no specific timeframe given there either. Goku blitzing Nappa counts only in terms of their respective speed feats, not in relation to Piccolo's blast which is unproven as FTL due to the lack of evidence at this point in DBZ.

Now let's get into to his fight with Frieza. Frieza as well has light speed attacks similar to Piccolo, the first of the being his death beam. When he first fired it none of the Z fighters could see. And all Piccolo saw was a flash of light. He was unable to react to this beam, this is despite the fact that he himself has an attack that can move at speeds faster than light which he is is able see. Also bare in mind that everyone present is stronger than the Piccolo who moon busted. (this continues the idea of stronger character, faster blasts)

Piccolo states he only saw a flash of light so that caps this particular death beam at lightspeed according to character statements, not FTL. Still, this is where lightspeed and FTL feats can be definitely proven.

Goku also managed to escape Frieza's paralyzing light ball at the last instant. Oh and before you say it. Paralyzing light is the description of the attack. Not it's name as you can see Frieza never onces utters a name. So Goku reacted to exploding light at the last minute. These are two different examples showing that Frieza's attacks are light speed and none of this comes from the name of the attacks.

So if paralyzing light isn't the name of the attack, why is that the name which is given to Frieza's particular move? I could critique this in comparison to Madara's Lightfang move getting overrated, but after the hard stance I've given on several parts of this section, I think I can let this one slide. This at least contains more accurate proof of a DBZ move actually being lightspeed.

Cell's Kamehamaha also moves at light-speed or faster based on the fact that is quickly cross the earth's atmosphere and goes into space similar to Roshis's kamehameha. Except Cell's blast should be faster(There is no moon to compare this to because it is destroyed, but the blasts is clearly far into space) Goku was able to react to it and avoid it thanks to his Instant transmission should show he himself has FTL reactions.

Technically this particular reaction is down to Goku's Instant Transmission technique rather than his own reaction times but since Goku knows Instant Transmission this is only a minor quibble.

With all these examples I think it is fairly evident that the blasts of the DBZ characters are FTL at least this is relevant because characters have been shown time and time again to be faster than the blasts used. And the fact that Goku is able to react to and avoid them shows he should have ftl reactions..

Now these feats are all done by Goku in base or ssj. To judge how he is in later forms would require the use of other characters(e.g something ssj2 gohan was able to do should be something ssj2 goku can do as well) which I will hold off from doing just for now.

Only the Frieza and Cell examples have been shown as genuinely FTL on their own virtues, prior to that those blasts are hugely inconsistent and do not consistently match up with the feats and showings of Dragon Ball/Saiyan Saga DBZ characters. But that's still 2-3 examples you've provided and you obviously have more as you have mentioned so I can't deny your conclusion.

However, this does not prevent Superman from keeping up with Goku as he's speed blitzed many fast characters:

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  • Blitzes Wonder Woman (Superman #211)
  • Blitzes Ultraman (Trinity #13)
  • Blitzes an Imperiex Probe
  • Blitzes Doomsday (Action Comics #962)
  • Blitzes Solar Superman (Action Comics #52)
  • Blitzes Doomsday over 4,000 times in a few seconds (Action Comics #960)
  • Blitzes Black Lantern Kal-L (Blackest Night: Superman #3)
  • Blitzes Subjekt 17 (Superman #656)
  • Blitzes Zod and Ursa
  • Blitzes Maxima
  • Blitzes Bizarro and casually evades Mongul (Superman: The Man of Steel #131)
  • Blitzes Doomsday Rex.

Outside of Mongul, all these characters are capable of superhuman speed yet Superman has managed to outblitz them with his combat speed. Given how often and effectively Superman uses his speed in combat, I don't think Goku will run circles around him.

Reactions and perceptions are closer between Superman and Goku IMO. A younger Superman has avoided Vorx laser beams which used beta-ray technology that moved at near light speeds.

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His perception and processing speed are so fast he can read 5 years of medical knowledge in 10 minutes (Action Comics #12) and can process information faster than a supercomputer (Action Comics #14)

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And he's reacted to Kryptonite lasers even when weakened (Superman #653 & Action Comics #854)

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However another major thing that will aid Goku in this battle in terms of speed is his instant transmission. This will most certainly come in handy during the fight. I have already posted one feat above of him using it in combat to avoid Cell. And he can do it several times during this battle. As long as Goku can react to something, he is able to use instant transmission to get out of it. I will get into how much this will aid him in my next post.

I'll see what you come up with for the Instant Transmission argument. I've developed a strategy against it that Superman can use to counter IT, plus Superman has a technique he can use to evade attacks that I'll cover in the next post.

Energy Manipulation

This is Goku's biggest advantage in the battle. Goku should be a casual planet buster by the end of dragonball. And there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest. Now you may say Goku himself has never blown up a planet, which is true. However Goku has never had a reason to do so. He has alway diverted his attacks way from the planet or redirect planetary attacks himself.

The thing is Goku has never blown up a planet and whilst that doesn't mean he can't, it also means he's not used to using such intensity of ki energy due to him not wanting to destroy a planet or being able to survive the destruction of a planet. Goku's actions in character are worth considering even on an indestructible battlefield.

In his weaker from's Goku is able to use planetary attacks through the use of his Kamehameha, The kamehameha is basically Goku focusing all his energy into one point as stated by Raditz. So let's first start of by showing what Kamehameha weaker Character can do. Back in Early Dragon Ball, a full power Roshi used the kamehameha to destroy the moon intself. Now Goku has long since surpassed Roshi so his Kamehameha would be more powerful.

I agree that Goku has obviously surpassed Roshi so his Kamehameha would be more powerful but isn't it a little weird that Roshi's feat is one of the best destructive blasts in Dragon Ball? I mean Piccolo was more powerful than his 'father' King Piccolo at the World Martial Arts Tournament and King Piccolo was well beyond Roshi that the Mafuba was considered the only way to defeat him. Yet Piccolo's best AOE blast was only the size of an island busting nuke range at best.

But now I will get into the planetary stuff. The first evidence of planetary attacks in DBZ is between Goku and Vegeta. Where Vegeta was going to blow up the planet with his galick gun, and Goku was able to redirect the blast away from the Planet with his own Kamehameha.

Further evidence of Vegeta' being planetary is the fact that prior to firing the blast he had shook the entire plane just by displaying his power to Goku. So his statement of being able to bust the planet should be legitimate.

I can understand why this is considered a planetary attack but I disagree with the semantics personally. Vegeta's remarks ultimately sound hyperbolic when you consider what happened. The conflict of the beam struggle did not cause continental, let alone planetary level destruction. The only impact and collateral damage from their energy attacks was contained in the rocky wasteland they were fighting in. Your claim that Vegeta shaking the planet whilst powering up is supporting proof doesn't entirely validate your conclusion. DBZ power ups are fancy light shows that end up with different results. For example, Goku or Vegeta's Super Saiyan transformations were not planetary and Goku wasn't in control of the Super Saiyan form at first so he couldn't control his transformation.

Goku uses a planet busting later in Cell Saga against Cell. As you can see, pretty much everyone goes hysteria the moment Goku starts charging up because they believe he is going to use from up there. Now Goku uses instant transmission infront of Cell to make sure he doesn't hit the planet with his attack.

A couple of things I would like to point out about this attack. First the charge time was relatively low, the anime loves to drags things out but it doesn't actually take that long. Second thing I would like to point out is that this attack did quite a bit of damage to Cell and drained him of his energy. This is despite the fact that Cell had earlier taken a planetary blast from Vegeta and was in much better shape afterwards. This should show that Goku's kamehameha here is a more powerful attack that the one used by say Frieza or Saiyan Saga Vegeta. So just planetary durability wouldn't cut it against him.

If it was a planet busting blast, why was the Earth still there afterwards? I'm still of the school of thought that to be considered a planet buster you have to have done something to fit the job description. Goku's attack wasn't even directed off planet like Vegeta did with his Final Flash against Cell, so the Instant Transmission excuse rings hollow to me. Goku's Kamehameha touched the ground unequivocally yet the destruction was only planetary at best if I were to be generous given what other DBZ characters had done previously.

The charge time still required Goku to say Kamehame...before he warped onto Cell with Instant Transmission and Superman is not going to allow Goku the opportunity to charge his beam when he yells out the attack name like DBZ characters conveniently let each other do. Vegeta's Final Flash also did a lot of damage to Cell, the reason why Cell was better off from Vegeta's Final Flash was that Vegeta goaded Cell into staying where he was and Cell managed to evade part of the Final Flash before it hit him. Goku's IT Kamehameha caught Cell off guard and at point blank range so I believe that's why Cell took more damage from Goku's attack.

Whilst Superman's beam attacks don't match up to Goku's ki attacks, I still maintain his attacks will be able to hurt Goku. Since he's willing to kill, this is what a willing to kill dose of heat vision from Superman can do to Goku (Superman: Doomed #1)

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New 52 Doomsday isn't just a featless Doomsday clone, his Death field increased his already Superman level durability and Wonder Woman's atom cutting sword disintegrated on contact yet Superman vaporised his body when cutting loose with his heat vision. Still sure heat vision wouldn't do much to Goku?

He melted Major Force's durasteel resilient body with a sustained heat vision blast.

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And he defeated Breach with his heat vision (Breach #8)

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Heat vision is likely to hurt Goku, whereas freeze breath can be used to incapacitate Goku, or at least slow him down allowing Superman to land a free shot on him. Superman used a similar tactic to stop the intangible Ghost Soldier in his tracks (Action Comics #29)

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His freeze breath has temporarily restrained Brainiac (Action Comics #870)

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And Superman's combined use of heat vision and freeze breath incapacitated Bizarro (Action Comics #845)

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Skill/Battle Smarts

An underrated aspect of Goku is the fact that he really is a genius when it comes to battle. Superman is smarter than him in general but not in a fight. Goku spends every time of the day training. While Superman is busy taking care of random criminals, being a reporter or spending time with his family, Goku is training. This training has led to him surpassing pretty much every supposed god he has met bar Beerus. This has led to Goku knowing being able to come up with counters to his opponents.

Goku is an exceptional fighter for sure, though you should take care not to underestimate Superman's combat experience. It's true Superman spends a lot more time at his job or with his family than Goku has ever managed. But Superman has also spent a lifetime mastering his powers and has fought many powerful foes and intense battles. This means Superman has often had to strategise and draw upon a decade of experience to defeat them. So his combat experience is definitely up there with Goku's.

Superman received training from Mongul II to fully master his powers and surpass the mental barriers he had placed on himself (Superman #152)

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Here Superman uses several of his powers to attack Doomsday; opening up with heat vision, blitzing him and following up with powerful blows (Action Comics #961)

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He's defeated an Imperiex Probe in this particularly impressive display with all his powers at once.

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So Superman is just as skilled at using his powers as Goku is at fighting.

To start I will bring up the example of his fight with Frieza yet again. Frieza's example is the most relevant because he couldn't sense energy which is the case with Superman. Goku figured this out and began exploiting this weakness.

Frieza didn't have superhuman senses or hearing which is the case with Superman.

Goku is also a pretty skilled fighter. And when he faces an opponent that is stronger than him he tends to compensate with the use of his skill and battle smarts. Cell, Frieza and Vegeta are examples of fights where Goku uses his technique to compensate for his lack of power and I assure he will be doing so here, since he knows he is facing someone with superior strength to him. Here is his fight displaying some martial arts skill.

Superman's not too bad at tactical thinking when facing superior foes or numbers either. My previous scans of Superman fighting Mongul and Bizarro also show Superman employing tactics to divide and conquer his foes (read from right to left)

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Goku is undoubtedly the better fighter, but Superman is quite a brilliant tactician when you analyse his fights.

Points of Consideration

Given all this stuff to cover, we can probably move past the cannon metaphors. I see Superman holding the strength advantage, both in lifting and striking strength which means he'll inflict major damage on Goku. Superman also holds the clear advantage in durability, and despite Goku's impressive power output, Superman has more impressive durability feats I have yet to show which I think will enable Superman to hold out against Goku's attacks and overcome him. Goku's speed and skill edge will be tricky but Superman is fast enough to keep up with him. Superman is also more versatile, equally experienced in combat and is a smart tactical fighter himself. With his superior strength, durability and versatility, Superman has what it takes to overpower his Saiyan opponent.

Your turn @emperorthanos, I had to go HAM this early in my reply.

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#86 Posted by DeathandGrim (4842 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v please

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#87 Edited by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio
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Counters

Speed

I don't agree with this being anywhere close to a relativistic or lightspeed feat at all. Kami was still a big deal during Dragon Ball but after DBZ, everyone (even Yamcha) outclassed him in terms of speed and power. His power level was below 1,000 and so his speed never increased compared to everyone else’s during the course of DBZ. Let alone Roshi's power level who was below 200 yet it's credible to say he has relativistic perceptions? This is obviously different from street level FTE speed but hypersonic level characters like Iron Man and Speed O Sound Sonic have performed similar speed feats.

It is not a definite light speed. But Kami had perceptions that didn't come from his power level. Just like King Kai is able to do things that people who are much stronger than he is aren't. Moving faster than someone who can basically keep track of everything going on the planet is still impressive. And it is clearly different from speed or sound sonic who is leaving a trace behind him.

But Goku has more clear cut light speed feats. So I won't debate this much further.

Eh it does sound kind of hyperbolic given all that happens in Goku's fight with Vegeta and the capabilities of Saiyan saga level characters. It's still a solid feat and Goku has long since surpassed this speed.

I suppose it is hyperbolic. But if Krillin and Roshi were able to have a full on fight in a fraction of second in early dragonball. Goku and Vegeta being able to fight in a heartbeat is consistent.

No it does not mean the blast was FTL because Nappa has no lightspeed feats nor does any other Saiyan saga character. It also doesn't prove Piccolo's blast was faster than Roshi's because there was no specific timeframe given there either. Goku blitzing Nappa counts only in terms of their respective speed feats, not in relation to Piccolo's blast which is unproven as FTL due to the lack of evidence at this point in DBZ.

The specific feat is. I can admit that not all his other attacks move at the same speed and we don't see anyone actually dodge an FTL blast at Saiayn Saga. But this was just a feat to show that speed of characters attack does increase as the character get's stronger and that they do posses blasts that can move at FTL speeds. The attack clearly took less time than Roshis. So an attack from someone like Cell's kamehameha should be FTL and Goku dodged them.

Piccolo states he only saw a flash of light so that caps this particular death beam at lightspeed according to character statements, not FTL. Still, this is where lightspeed and FTL feats can be definitely proven.

Fair enough. But with the beams being light speed, Goku would have to be able to react and move at FTL speeds himself to be able do block every single one them. Also Frieza's beams when using more power should be faster. Which Goku managed to dodge as a supersaiyan.

So if paralyzing light isn't the name of the attack, why is that the name which is given to Frieza's particular move? I could critique this in comparison to Madara's Lightfang move getting overrated, but after the hard stance I've given on several parts of this section, I think I can let this one slide. This at least contains more accurate proof of a DBZ move actually being lightspeed.

What meant was that it is the description the attack. the attack itself is light. And Goku managed to escape the lightball the instant it exploded to avoid the light hitting him. Madara's light fang is just the attack name, Like how Piccolo's special beam canon was first called the light of death.

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In the case of Madara's light-fang and Piccolo's light of death. It's just the attacks name so it is not necessarily a light attack. While in the instance of the Paralyzing light ball. it was the attack itself or it's description if you understand what I'm getting at.

Technically this particular reaction is down to Goku's Instant Transmission technique rather than his own reaction times but since Goku knows Instant Transmission this is only a minor quibble.

True. Goku did need instant transmission. But I would still require FTL reactions to avoid. Instant transmission is just teleportation. Someone like Nightcrawler can teleport but he wouldn't be able to react and teleport out of a FTL attack like Goku did.

Anyways I can bring up the instance when Gohan as an ssj2 faced Cell's Kamehameha. I will bring up Gohan as a SSJ2 a couple of times in this debate. I don't really like powerscaling but I think It's should be fairly obvious that if Gohan can do something as an SSJ2, Goku would be able to replicate it as a SSJ2 himself or as a SSJ3. Now Unlike Goku who had to teleport out of the Cell's kamehameha. Gohan was able to fire his own Kamehameha out of the planet before Cell's attack hit the planet. With Gohan's own Kamehameha moving at FTL speeds. Goku had surpassed this Gohan during the Buu Saga as Majin Vegeta explicitly pointed out.

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Only the Frieza and Cell examples have been shown as genuinely FTL on their own virtues, prior to that those blasts are hugely inconsistent and do not consistently match up with the feats and showings of Dragon Ball/Saiyan Saga DBZ characters. But that's still 2-3 examples you've provided and you obviously have more as you have mentioned so I can't deny your conclusion.

I can agree to this Goku should be FTL once we reach his fight with Frieza. And then in his battle with Cell. Goku being SSJ3 in this fight should mean he is comfortably FTL.

However, this does not prevent Superman from keeping up with Goku as he's speed blitzed many fast characters:

So has Goku. This doesn't necessarily equate to him being able to deal with Goku's speed. Goku was FTL at base and here he is SSJ3. I'm not going to use multipliers because power levels do not work linearly. However it does show that just being fast doesn't mean you can avoid being to fast to blitz.

Goku too uses his speed in combat when he faces opponents slower. I will bring the example of him blitzing both Jeice and Burter with ease back in Namek. Ginyu was a character known for his speed. Now he is not FTL but he is still incredibly fast and is faster than some of the people you mentioned. And Jeice himself is pretty close too.

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Outside of Mongul, all these characters are capable of superhuman speed yet Superman has managed to outblitz them with his combat speed. Given how often and effectively Superman uses his speed in combat, I don't think Goku will run circles around him.

They are undoubtedly fast. But again being able to blitz character doesn't mean you can avoid being blitz. Both Jeice and Burter are massively hypersonic. And I would say are both several times faster than lightening. Yet they were able to do nothing to Goku. Goku has been shown to be faster than those who are even FTL. For example Frieza. Frieza was faster than the Goku who deflected the light beams and dodged the paralyzing light. Yet as an SSJ Goku was able to blitz him and now move his entire body out of the way of his light beams instead of just deflecting them

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Goku was also able to blitz Android 19 with ease. Android 19 doesn't really have many feats but is on similar level to Frieza. He may not be FTL for sure but he is still extremely fast being strong enough to require Goku and Vegeta to go SSJ. However He was still easily blitzed by Goku when they fought. A Goku suffering from Heart disease no less.

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Most of DBZ character stronger than a ssj should be FTL. There aren't many instances of Goku blitzing people mainly because in most occasions he fought people equal or stronger than him and were easily FTL bar Yakon. But here is a final example of him blitzing this time against Fat Buu as a SSJ3. Fat Buu was certainly FTL and was blizting others who were FTL such as SSJ2 Gohan and Majin Vegeta. Both of whom are as fast as the people you showed Superman Blitzing.

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I can provide feats for Fat Buu to further my point. My point being that showing Superman blitzing people doesn't save him from being blitzed. Now I want to make it clear that i doubt Goku would blitz Clark as easily as done above. And yes Goku won't be running circles around him. But he will use his speed to avoid most of Clark's attacks and get more hits in.

Reactions and perceptions are closer between Superman and Goku IMO. A younger Superman has avoided Vorx laser beams which used beta-ray technology that moved at near light speeds.

And he's reacted to Kryptonite lasers even when weakened (Superman #653 & Action Comics #854)

They are closer in this regard. the feats you have shown so far are impressive. But dodging lasers isnt really that impressive. Dodging near Light speed lasers are not as impressive as being able to casually deflect beams of light it self. As for the kyrptonite laser. Unless I'm missing something that makes them superior to regular lasers I don't see how this impressive.

Base Vegeta who is Goku's equal if not slightly inferior to him Was able to dodge a bunch of lasers as well in his base form in DB Super. However in his case, he was doing this in a gravity room where the gravity was 150 times greater than on Earth. He dodges lasers from all sides in his base form with the gravity being extremely high. This is pre god Vegeta so before any training with Whis. And Goku is at least as fast as him if no faster.

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His perception and processing speed are so fast he can read 5 years of medical knowledge in 10 minutes (Action Comics #12) and can process information faster than a supercomputer (Action Comics #14)

Impressive for sure. But I don't see how much this would help him in a battle against Goku.

I'll see what you come up with for the Instant Transmission argument. I've developed a strategy against it that Superman can use to counter IT, plus Superman has a technique he can use to evade attacks that I'll cover in the next post.

Now Goku can use his instant Transmission for multiple purposes. To get superman by surprise or by avoiding his attacks. I have already show the two instances of his usage of the technique against Cell. First to dodge his FTL attacks. And Second to surprise him with the Kamehameha. Goku do this here as well.

Here is an instance of him training with Vegeta. As I have already stated that Goku and Vegeta are equals. Their combat speed, reactionary speed are exactly the same at this point of the story. But Goku is still the superior of the two because of his battle smarts and techniques. The example of this is when they trained and Goku utilized the instant transmission to dodge each and every single one of Vegeta's punches.

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Vegeta eventually tagged him by going SSB. But there is a reason Goku can't go ssb here because that form is on another level. However if Goku is able to use Instant transmission to avoid attacks from someone who is equal in every regard what's stopping him from using it against Superman who we have both agreed has inferior combat speed to Goku.

When you combine Goku's use of Instant Transmission and his combat speed. Superman will have a difficulty tagging Goku. Though I will see what technique you have for superman to help him from this.

Strength

A decent showing for Goku in regards to destruction but I have shown Superman achieving a similar feat.

Fair enough. Superman does have feats of this level and better.

On this point alone I do agree it is a pretty good feat for Goku's striking power in his ability to hurt an incredibly durable foe. Still, Superman has the feats to indicate he could do the same given how he's hurt some of the toughest beings in his universe.

Superman has hurt some of the most powerful people in his universe. But only a few of them can really compare to Frieza in terms of Durability.

Here though I have some concerns with your claim. I find Frieza kicking away Vegeta's planetary blast to be more of a ki control feat than a strength feat. For one, this is a massive energy beam being fired which means it's not entirely solid and thus would require at least an element of ki control for Frieza to touch it and kick it away. Secondly, many DBZ characters have controlled ki in a similar way. Like Frieza in his third form brushing away Gohan's blast whilst barely touching it or Nappa deflecting Gohan's blast.

The way I look at the feat is similar to how Saitama punched away Boros's blast. Frieza has never displayed any great ki control, he can't even sense ki. Piccolo even states that he did it with just a kick. It wouldn't have been that impressive if it was just ki control.

In the Gohan instance. Frieza was clearly touching the blast and he just pushed it away and Nappa deflecting Gohan's blast would just be him hitting it away. Again Nappa's ki control is nothing great either. It was never out righted stated that this was just a form Ki control. especially when it's people who are barely trained in control ki like the z fighters are. Frieza having never trained a single day his life until after he was resurrected.

I expected this when you brought up Frieza's durability. However, there are some differences between the force of a superhumanly strong punch and the force of an exploding planet. Physical attacks can be focused on a specific area, which in Goku’s case was Frieza's body. In contrast, a planet explosion produces a massive burst of energy spreading out from the point of explosion across the blast radius. These are two different kinds of force generally, unless someone is capable of destroying a planet with their bare hands. Furthermore, Frieza's body is stated to be capable of surviving an exploding planet and the vacuum of space before Namek's destruction, which is probably due to his species' physiology. To be clear I'm not saying Frieza doesn't have planetary durability, my point is whether Goku hurting him is proof of planetary striking.

The force of an exploding planet is still great. But I agree on with you that they are a little different. A planetary explosion is not focused on single person like a Planetary Blast or Punch. However we have to take into account that Frieza had no energy left in that instance while his species do have greater durability than others his energy still amps him up. Goku drew blood from him when he was at 100% of his power. This may not necessarily mean Goku has plaentary striking. However it does mean that Golu can hurt people who have survived planetary explosion.

Thus, I'll provide further evidence of Superman's striking power. Superman has one shotted Earth Man whose duplication powers allowed him to copy all the powers of the Legion of Superheroes (Action Comics #863)

Forgive my ignorance. But what are Earth Man's best durability feats? I know next to nothing about the legion of heroes but Unless he has feats comparable to Frieza this isn't really impressive.

He's destroyed a large alien ship in a single blitz (Superman #204)

This is more impressive, but I don't think this puts him above what Goku is capable of doing. Goku knocking Frieza through multiple islands is still comparable to this. However Superman's bullrushes are dangerous to Goku. Goku's instant transmission would definitely allow him to avoid these. Superman's best bullrush feats happen when he is in space. He has a large distance to gain momentum and then strike something. Almost all of his top feats come from this. However we are fighting on a planet, Goku will see Superman coming. even if he is flying at FTL speeds, Goku can just instant transmission himself away from the attack.

He one shotted Ultraman and Superwoman simultaneously (Trinity #13)

I wouldn't really call this a striking feat. He is just knocking out Superwoman using Ultraman. Nor is this him oneshotting Ultraman. Considering they had been trading blows with each other prior to this. Superman using Ultraman's anger against him to get several gut shots in.

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The Imperiex Probes were no pushovers either as they defeated most of the Justice League and required either a plot device or a sacrifice from the other heroes to defeat just one or two Imperiex Probes.

The imperiex drones were impressive. But none of them really have greater durability than Frieza. I don't recall the exact line up of the JLA during that event but I believe only Kyle was a legit planet buster. And I don't think he used that kind of power on the drones

Also I could bring up Gohan as an SSJ2 basically oneshotting a bunch of Cell JRs. Each Cell Jr was absurdly more powerful than Frieza even possessing his cells which wouuld mean that they share his physiology. They where too much for the z fighters to handle who included a weakened ssj Goku, ASSJ Vegeta, ASSJ Trunks and Piccolo.

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You can show several feats of Superman taking out villains. Goku doesn't nearly have as many but most of the villains that Goku has manage to take out, do have pretty good durability feats.

For example here is Goku blitzing Recoome and one shotting him with a single punch. Up until that point nothing had fazed recoome. Tanking attacks from Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan. Yet against Goku he was pretty much helpless.

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Recoome has some pretty crazy durability feats. I will show his most impressive durability. Which was when he was going to kill Vegeta with his final move until Krillin and Gohan intervened. Recoome fired a blast from his mouth and then krillin kicked him on his head which resulted in him closing his mouth whilst letting out blast. The blast that was capable of warping the planet. But all its did to Recoome was destroy his teeth.

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Goku was also bale to trade blows with a SSJ2 Majin Vegeta. The two of them matched each other blow for blow and the side effect of their battle resulted in the mountains around them being destroyed. Now both of these two where stronger than SSJ2 Gohan whose feats I showed earlier.

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Overall so far I feel I have shown Goku is superior in this aspect. Even if we discount the feat of Frieza knocking away Vegeta's attack. His ridiculous durability still stands. Harming him when he was at 100% is more impressive than what you have shown so far since Frieza survived a planet busting at 1%.

But now I might as well show Goku's best striking feat. One that superior to what Superman can do. This was when Goku first fought Beerus on King Kai's planet. Goku was completely outclassed in this battle even as an ssj3. But Goku was able to pull of an impressive attack during their fight. When Goku threw a punch at Beerus, He ended up hitting the planet instead of Beerus himself. Which resulted in a whole being blasted through the planet.

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No King Kai's planet is not as big Earth. But it has 10 x the gravity. Making it a lot more dense. This is not a full on planetary feat. But it is still incredibly impressive. And Goku just did it with a punch, no bullrushing or anything. A punch like this would do serious damage to Superman.

Durability.

Planetary durability isn't equivalent to planet busting durability so I'm not wholly opposed to your rating for Goku's durability. However, Dragon Ball characters, specifically Saiyans, are not the best when it comes to durability and tanking attacks. It also doesn't help your point that on the 3 occasions where Goku is faced with a planet busting attack, he either escapes or is killed by the blast. So Super Saiyan or not, he's not going to hold up too well against Superman's attacks and heat vision.

That is largely because it is hammered home each time that saiyans can't breathe in space. It is a huge point in DBZ and even Super. Frieza's durability cannot possible be greater than Goku's durability as an SSJ3, the difference between the two is incredibly large. Yet because Frieza can breathe in space he doesn't have to worry about them. And Superman's heat vision isn't planetary.

That's some neat durability, but despite how easily Goku is tanking those attacks, they're not Frieza's best. I don't need to remind you that Frieza said he held back on his power when he tried to blow up Namek and just destabilised the core instead. It makes sense those attacks would also be Frieza holding back if he is a casual planet buster.

But that same Frieza was capable of blowing up planet Vegeta with a single blast in his first form. It was his most powerful attack at the time but that fact that he was able to do this in his first form means that his attacks in his final form should be capable of doing so. Especially when he clearly trying to kill Goku. Frieza really has no reason to hold back his attacks.

Frieza busting a planet in his first form is irrelevant when he wasn't using that attack or that level of power in the rest of his fight with Goku. Especially when Frieza stated so in the manga. Still, this is not nearly as bad as the power scaling I've dealt with in the past so it's not too problematic.

Frieza was clearly going all out against Goku whilst he didn't even look like he was trying when blew up Vegeta. I don't think it's unlikely that he was using planetary attacks against Goku.

But Goku also tanked a kamehameha from Kid Buu. Kid Buu's casual blast would have busted the Earth if it wasn't redirected while Buu then just blew it with an even larger blast. But the Kamehameha focuses all his power into a single attack. As for why the planet wasn't destroyed. It's because the planet's size is supposed to a tenth of the universe. And neither Kid Buu or Goku have the power to blow up such a large planet.

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And here is an example of Kid Buu casually busting a planet with a simple attack.

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As far as bullrush blitzes go, Superman's are more powerful than Frieza's by feats. For example, a younger Superman one shotted Solomon Grundy with a bullrush (Superman #676)

Yeah I can't dispute that his bulrushes are more powerful. But I wouldn't say this particular feat is any thing greater than what Frieza can do.

New 52 Doomsday isn't just a featless Doomsday clone, his Death field increased his already Superman level durability and Wonder Woman's atom cutting sword disintegrated on contact yet Superman vaporised his body when cutting loose with his heat vision. Still sure heat vision wouldn't do much to Goku?

Well Goku has incredible durability when it comes to energy based attacks. Here is an example of Goku tanking an island leveling attack from Piccolo. Goku was able to continue despite tanking this. It was a incredibly powerfull attack andI don't think Superman can replicate something like this with just heat vision. And even then this is just a low end feat for Goku. Who has tanked far worse.

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Which includes attacks from Frieza and Kid Buu. Two casual planet busters. Now Doomsday has good durability feats but it's his energy durability that really matters. I think we can both agree that there is a difference between tanking energy attacks, physical attacks and piercing attacks. And Goku's energy durability is incredible. Superman's heat vision doesn't really have the destructive power that DBZ characters do especially those Goku have faced.

whereas freeze breath can be used to incapacitate Goku, or at least slow him down allowing Superman to land a free shot on him. Superman used a similar tactic to stop the intangible Ghost Soldier in his tracks (Action Comics #29)

His freeze breath has temporarily restrained Brainiac (Action Comics #870)

And Superman's combined use of heat vision and freeze breath incapacitated Bizarro (Action Comics #845)

Superman's freeze breath might be problematic but Goku should be able to break himself out using either raw strength or through his tk. Here is an example of him exploding a large piece of ground just by staring at it so he can make grave for Vegeta.

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Energy Manip vs Superman's Durability

I will admit first off. That of all of the sections this is one that requires the most amount of scaling. Goku himself lacks many feats of energy blasts. But still enough proof that he can bust planets.

The thing is Goku has never blown up a planet and whilst that doesn't mean he can't, it also means he's not used to using such intensity of ki energy due to him not wanting to destroy a planet or being able to survive the destruction of a planet. Goku's actions in character are worth considering even on an indestructible battlefield.

But he is fighting in an indestructible planet. And it's not like Goku hasn't resorted to using planetary attacks when he needed to. Cell was tanking all his attacks so he went for a planetary attack against him. Goku is not against firing planetary attacks and he will if Superman tanks every thing else he does.

He won't start of by spamming planetary attacks like someone like Buu or Frieza. But he will use them when the time comes.

I agree that Goku has obviously surpassed Roshi so his Kamehameha would be more powerful but isn't it a little weird that Roshi's feat is one of the best destructive blasts in Dragon Ball? I mean Piccolo was more powerful than his 'father' King Piccolo at the World Martial Arts Tournament and King Piccolo was well beyond Roshi that the Mafuba was considered the only way to defeat him. Yet Piccolo's best AOE blast was only the size of an island busting nuke range at best.

Well it could have do with the technique. The kamehameha allows one to concentrate all his power into a single point. Kind Piccolo didn't have such an attack. While Piccolo could only do this once he made the special beam cannon. Also King Piccolo did his feat casually while Roshi was completely drained. While Piccolo had already been through a grueling battle with Goku and was still able to fire blasts after that.

I can understand why this is considered a planetary attack but I disagree with the semantics personally. Vegeta's remarks ultimately sound hyperbolic when you consider what happened. The conflict of the beam struggle did not cause continental, let alone planetary level destruction. The only impact and collateral damage from their energy attacks was contained in the rocky wasteland they were fighting in. Your claim that Vegeta shaking the planet whilst powering up is supporting proof doesn't entirely validate your conclusion. DBZ power ups are fancy light shows that end up with different results. For example, Goku or Vegeta's Super Saiyan transformations were not planetary and Goku wasn't in control of the Super Saiyan form at first so he couldn't control his transformation.

Well on the topic of collateral damage. The blast didn't really hit anything. Goku redirected blast towards and then it went into space. So you can't really judge it by collateral damage.

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You second point is fair. But the difference between Goku going SSJ and what Vegeta did, is that Vegeta wasn't charging up he was purposefully shaking the planet to show Goku how strong he was. But Goku does have other proof to suggest he is Planetary.

If it was a planet busting blast, why was the Earth still there afterwards? I'm still of the school of thought that to be considered a planet buster you have to have done something to fit the job description. Goku's attack wasn't even directed off planet like Vegeta did with his Final Flash against Cell, so the Instant Transmission excuse rings hollow to me. Goku's Kamehameha touched the ground unequivocally yet the destruction was only planetary at best if I were to be generous given what other DBZ characters had done previously.

The attack clearly missed the planet though. Goku fired the blast upwards. Vegeta's blast did the same. It skimmed the planet but didn't drectly hit the planet. For the planet to have been blown up with have to have been downwards on it.

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Goku made sure he didn't fire the blast from the sky and teleported right infront of Cell so that he didn't hit the planet directly and to surprise Cell.

Vegeta's Final Flash also did a lot of damage to Cell, the reason why Cell was better off from Vegeta's Final Flash was that Vegeta goaded Cell into staying where he was and Cell managed to evade part of the Final Flash before it hit him. Goku's IT Kamehameha caught Cell off guard and at point blank range so I believe that's why Cell took more damage from Goku's attack.

Vegeta's final flash still hit Cell head on. And it was much larger attack(in size) to what Goku did. Also you have to take into account that Cell was still holding back his power against Vegeta. While against Goku he had powered up to his max. And Cell lost a lost a considerable amount of Energy after that attack while he didn't when tanked Vegetas. The distance from where it was fired from shouldn't make a difference.

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Goku's kamehameha is clearly more powerful. And it makes sense logically considering he is stronger then Vegeta.

Pretty much all KamehameHa's at this point were planetary level. Cell's, Goku's and Gohan's.

The charge time still required Goku to say Kamehame...before he warped onto Cell with Instant Transmission and Superman is not going to allow Goku the opportunity to charge his beam when he yells out the attack name like DBZ characters conveniently let each other do.

Well the kamehameha doesn't take that long to say. And Goku sia ble to cahrge up a kamehameha whilst attacking someone. He does this against Frieza. The same Frieza who was able to kick away a planetary blast form Vegeta but couldn't stop Goku's attack. Goku can do something like this against Superman to fire a kamehameha at him before he gets the chance.

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And later on as a ssj3 he doesn't necessarily need to to say the whole thing to fire the attack. SSJ3 Goku has shown to ability to fire powerful Kamehameha's without having to say anything on a couple of occasions.

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As you can notice in both instances Goku's kamehameha doesn't hit the planet. As SSJ3 his kamehameha should be certainly planetary. Considering SSJ level character were capable of firing them with relative ease.

Indeed, that is what Goku consistently does when faced with a powerful attack, physical or ki based, he uses his speed to evade it rather than face it head on. Superman's durability allows him to tank those more powerful attacks head on and withstand them far better than Goku could take Superman's best. Even compared to his fellow powerhouses of the DCU, who I would argue are more durable than Goku to, Superman has tanked attacks that KOed them. My first example of this involves scans from our previous CAV regarding Wonder Woman. Here, Superman tanks an explosion from an Imperiex Probe point blank and is still conscious afterwards.

As we discussed in our last CaV. While this is impressive it is unquantifiable. All we know is that it is a portion of the big bang but it's hard to determine how powerful it really is.

This is even more impressive when Breach was stated to be growing more powerful before he fought Superman.

Now this is impressive and quantifiable. But it's certainly not enough to save Superman from surviving Goku's attacks. Goku's energy attacks are far easily greater. The attack based of the scans is around mountain level. This is something low level DBZ characters are capable of doing with ease.

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And Goku even took a direct hit from one of raditz's blasts

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Superman has also tanked a morals off Hal Jordan's energy blast and Hal said afterwards that he was going all out at Superman (Superman/Batman #30)

This also impressive. But Hal isn't Kyle or Jon. While those two have solid planet busting feats. Hal doesn't. He has planet busted in pre crisis and while I am aware his story wasn't retconned his power certainly was considering the ridiculous things he could pull of back then. Also Hal was being mind controlled in this instance so I'm not sure how much willpower he could generate with that.

Anyway by the time we reach the Buu Saga. It is pretty evident that planetary blasts can be done pretty easily. For example Kid Buu who Goku is equal to in terms of raw power as a SSJ3. (Goku would have killed him if not for regen). Kid Buu was going to destroy a planet with a casual blast. However Vegeta in his SSJ1 form was able to easily redirect with his own attack. Vegeta at this point was inferior to Goku as well.

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Now Buu was later able to make a blast that they couldn't deflect. This just means that Buu is capable of creating blasts more powerful than the average planet busting attack which was why his second one couldn't be deflected while the first one could. As a SSJ3 Goku has as much power as Kid Buu. He was confident that he could beat him alone for a reason despite seeing him use an energy blast that powerful.

Moving onto physical attacks, Superman's physical resistance significantly outweighs Goku's. Superman has taken blows from heavy hitters like Black Adam (who Superman states hits harder than Captain Marvel) and Wonder Woman (Wonder Woman #175 & #219)

Tanking punches that send him across the world faster than any man made aircraft can travel is a lot more impressive than the physical attacks Goku has tanked thus far.

I agree that Superman's durability is superior than Goku's. But Goku does have the damage out put to overcome his incredible durability. His king kai planet strike is more deadly than this.

Skill

Goku is an exceptional fighter for sure, though you should take care not to underestimate Superman's combat experience. It's true Superman spends a lot more time at his job or with his family than Goku has ever managed. But Superman has also spent a lifetime mastering his powers and has fought many powerful foes and intense battles. This means Superman has often had to strategise and draw upon a decade of experience to defeat them. So his combat experience is definitely up there with Goku's.

Superman definitely posses combat experience that rivals Goku. But I don't think his combat smarts are as great. Like I said Goku's entire life revolves around fighting and making himself stronger. A lot of Superman's training is him getting a better grasp on his own powers. Superman is able to use his powers in different ways. But Goku is able to to do so. Such as when he he was busy punching around Frieza whilst charging a kamehameha to fire at him. Or the instance of him using instants transmission against Vegeta.

So Superman is just as skilled at using his powers as Goku is at fighting.

In terms of using his powers I agree. But I think Goku's Martial arts skill is greater than Supermans. I might as well bring up the instance where Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman discuss speed. Superman's raw speed is superior but Diana's training helps her make up for it and her muscle memory. Goku has received training from the gods of his universe, including Whis. Not to mention unlike Diana he does have the raw speed advantage as well.

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Superman's not too bad at tactical thinking when facing superior foes or numbers either. My previous scans of Superman fighting Mongul and Bizarro also show Superman employing tactics to divide and conquer his foes (read from right to left)

while this is impressive. He did this with ease mainly because he is has fought both of these two on multiple occasions. As well as the fact that he had superior powers to them.

Goku's fight against Hit really displays his skill. He had only seen Hit fight once against Vegeta and he didn't really know what his powers were. However he was able top get a graps of Hit's fighting styles on was able to predict Hit's movement. Hit is capable of jumping through time so be able to predict his movements are really impressive.

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Goku was able to think and react to Hit as an SSJ at incredibly high speeds. He was predicting dozens of attacks in an instance. Now Hit had jut stomped a 10% SSB Vegeta. WHo is still more powerful than SSJ Goku. This just shows how GOku is able to use his combat smarts to take on an opponent who is superior to him.

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Goku is undoubtedly the better fighter, but Superman is quite a brilliant tactician when you analyse his fights.

I agree Superman is no slouch in this regard but Goku does hold an advantage.

As to how relevant this will be in battle. Well Goku already has Basic knowledge on Superman. Being able to determine the way he fights will play a major part in Goku being able to avoid Superman's attacks.

Final points

  1. Goku's speed advantage has been agreed upon by both of us. Now Goku isn't going to blitz Superman like he does to Nappa or Recoome. However with Instant Transmission Goku can use it avoid most of Superman's attacks. Especially when Superman's most powerfull attacks come from Bullrushing his opponents.
  2. Strength based of what has been shown so far also goes to Goku. He has harmed someone who easily tanked an exploding planet. While his King kai planet feat is greater than anything you have shown so far Superman.
  3. Goku's durability is inferior to Supermans. But I still by my statement that Superman's heat vision won't be too much of a problem for Goku. His strikes are more of a problem but that's where Goku's speed and skill advantage will come in handy.
  4. Goku's Kamehameha's as a SSJ3 are definitely planet busting level. And as an SSJ3 he can use them pretty quickly. Nothing you have shown for Superman suggest he can tank a head on concentrated planetary blast from Goku
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superman :-)

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#91 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Apologies for the delay. I promise it will be done by Friday night.

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#92 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: OK it's finally done sorry for the wait.

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#93 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: I wouldn't have been able to reply until next week anyway so it's all good. It might be a week or two until I fully respond to all this but I'll be sure to match what you've brought to the table.

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#94 Edited by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos:

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Rebuttals

Strength

Superman has hurt some of the most powerful people in his universe. But only a few of them can really compare to Frieza in terms of Durability.

Considering that list includes Wonder Woman, Green Lanterns, Wraith and even Doomsday, I would say there are than a few that can compare to Frieza in terms of durability. Comic book levels of durability tend to be more impressive than DBZ durability.

The way I look at the feat is similar to how Saitama punched away Boros's blast. Frieza has never displayed any great ki control, he can't even sense ki. Piccolo even states that he did it with just a kick. It wouldn't have been that impressive if it was just ki control.

In the Gohan instance. Frieza was clearly touching the blast and he just pushed it away and Nappa deflecting Gohan's blast would just be him hitting it away. Again Nappa's ki control is nothing great either. It was never out righted stated that this was just a form Ki control. especially when it's people who are barely trained in control ki like the z fighters are. Frieza having never trained a single day his life until after he was resurrected.

No but he can emit and fire ki energy from his hands in several different ways. And unless DBZ characters can use other forms of energy now, that must mean Frieza has a level of ki control to do that. Even if it's only on the physical level.

I can understand where you're coming from with what Nappa did to Gohan's blast but Frieza sending Gohan's blast away did not look like a physical feat in the least. Moreover, since ki blasts are not as physically solid, that still means an element of ki control is necessary to manipulate and control those blasts. You can't expect me to believe that anyone can touch them as long as they're strong enough, it just does not appear to be presented that way.

The force of an exploding planet is still great. But I agree on with you that they are a little different. A planetary explosion is not focused on single person like a Planetary Blast or Punch. However we have to take into account that Frieza had no energy left in that instance while his species do have greater durability than others his energy still amps him up. Goku drew blood from him when he was at 100% of his power. This may not necessarily mean Goku has plaentary striking. However it does mean that Golu can hurt people who have survived planetary explosion.

Of course, Frieza was stated to have no energy left evidently but that doesn't remove his own natural durability which was implied to be greater than Goku's due to his physiology. I'm also not sure where it's stated ki increases durability, does Goku mention that when he's talking about the Kaio Ken? Goku drawing blood from Frieza at 100% power is still a good feat obviously, but I think Goku mentioned Frieza using 100% of his power had a negative effect on his body akin to anaerobic exercise or fatigue. So Frieza operating at 100% had its definite drawbacks.

Forgive my ignorance. But what are Earth Man's best durability feats? I know next to nothing about the legion of heroes but Unless he has feats comparable to Frieza this isn't really impressive.

No worries, Earth Man had duplicated all of the Legion of Super Heroes' powers. This included heroes like Ultraa and Blok, both of whom have superhuman physicals on Superman's level. Basically his power duplication enabled him to stack those powers on top of each other. It's more impressive than him 3 shotting Mongul or one shotting Ultraman IMO. But I have better feats to show as do you.

This is more impressive, but I don't think this puts him above what Goku is capable of doing. Goku knocking Frieza through multiple islands is still comparable to this. However Superman's bullrushes are dangerous to Goku. Goku's instant transmission would definitely allow him to avoid these. Superman's best bullrush feats happen when he is in space. He has a large distance to gain momentum and then strike something. Almost all of his top feats come from this. However we are fighting on a planet, Goku will see Superman coming. even if he is flying at FTL speeds, Goku can just instant transmission himself away from the attack.

Thought you might find it a bit more impressive. Superman's bullrush blitzes are going to do heavy damage to Goku and combined with his speed, Goku isn't always going to use Instant Transmission to get out of the way like he did with Vegeta. He occasionally takes opponents head on like he did with Botamo or Frost without using this technique. At the very least he's not going to use Instant Transmission at the start of the fight even with basic knowledge, which gives Superman's bullrush the chance to do damage.

The imperiex drones were impressive. But none of them really have greater durability than Frieza. I don't recall the exact line up of the JLA during that event but I believe only Kyle was a legit planet buster. And I don't think he used that kind of power on the drones

Also I could bring up Gohan as an SSJ2 basically oneshotting a bunch of Cell JRs. Each Cell Jr was absurdly more powerful than Frieza even possessing his cells which wouuld mean that they share his physiology. They where too much for the z fighters to handle who included a weakened ssj Goku, ASSJ Vegeta, ASSJ Trunks and Piccolo.

Well he did contain Imperiex's power during that event so he did operate at those levels later on. The JLA during the Imperiex War was Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, Wally West and Plastic Man. So it was several of the League's most powerful members fighting the Imperiex Probes.

It's unclear how much more powerful they were than Frieza because DBZ had dropped power levels by then but yeah, they were more powerful than Frieza, that cannot be denied. But Superman has some equally impressive one shots on similarly powerful characters. In Action Comics #793, Superman destroys a construct made by Kyle Rayner in a single blow.

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This is before Superman flew to the sun and got slightly sundipped for the record so there were no amps when Superman broke Kyle's construct. Also, in Adventures of Superman #642, Superman busts John Stewart's construct in one blow, the force of his punch overpowering John's willpower.

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This is even more impressive when John's willpower has been stated to exceed the ring's capacity when he tried to recreate Xanshi in Green Lantern #26.

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For example here is Goku blitzing Recoome and one shotting him with a single punch. Up until that point nothing had fazed recoome. Tanking attacks from Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan. Yet against Goku he was pretty much helpless.

Recoome has some pretty crazy durability feats. I will show his most impressive durability. Which was when he was going to kill Vegeta with his final move until Krillin and Gohan intervened. Recoome fired a blast from his mouth and then krillin kicked him on his head which resulted in him closing his mouth whilst letting out blast. The blast that was capable of warping the planet. But all its did to Recoome was destroy his teeth.

I don't think Recoome tanked the same amount of force he put from his Eraser Gun just because Krillin kicked his head. And that blast didn't really warp the planet at all, it only destroyed an area the size of a couple of Namek's islands. Not to mention Namek is bigger than Earth IIRC so there's no way Recoome's attack warped a planet that size. Plus as you've said characters from the Frieza saga got more and more durable so Recoome's durability should be pitiful next to them. But Goku one shotting him is decent I suppose.

Goku was also bale to trade blows with a SSJ2 Majin Vegeta. The two of them matched each other blow for blow and the side effect of their battle resulted in the mountains around them being destroyed. Now both of these two where stronger than SSJ2 Gohan whose feats I showed earlier.

Pretty impressive I must say. But Superman has sent some powerful beings flying from his strikes. Take Superman Unchained #8 where Superman punches Wraith from the Earth to the moon and then through the moon itself. Wraith only managed to stop Superman's attack by emitting Kryptonite radiation

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The distance between the Earth and the Moon is 238,900 miles, large enough to fit every planet in the Solar System. And the circumference of the Moon is 6,783 miles. So Superman punching a more powerful and thus durable being that far is particularly noteworthy. Goku would not fare better than Wraith from those punches, both because of his inability to survive in a vacuum and his durability.

But now I might as well show Goku's best striking feat. One that superior to what Superman can do. This was when Goku first fought Beerus on King Kai's planet. Goku was completely outclassed in this battle even as an ssj3. But Goku was able to pull of an impressive attack during their fight. When Goku threw a punch at Beerus, He ended up hitting the planet instead of Beerus himself. Which resulted in a whole being blasted through the planet.

No King Kai's planet is not as big Earth. But it has 10 x the gravity. Making it a lot more dense. This is not a full on planetary feat. But it is still incredibly impressive. And Goku just did it with a punch, no bullrushing or anything. A punch like this would do serious damage to Superman.

I figured you'd bring this up sooner or later. I concede Goku punching a hole through King Kai's planet is the striking feat that will give Superman the most grief. However, Superman has much more impressive durability feats that will enable him to resist such a punch. I'll discuss those later though. For now I'll move onto Superman's best striking feats for comparison. Superman has punched H'El hard enough that the force of his blows were felt in Dr Veritas' laboratory in the core of the Earth to the Watchtower in the farrest edges of Earth's atmosphere (Superman #17)

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Because of the scale of Superman's punches, this might be considered a planetary striking feat. But I can sense I'll need something more destructive to counter Goku's SSJ3 punch so I'll show my hand of Superman's moon busting feats. First up is Superman splitting a small moon of Saturn in half (Superman: Lex 2000)

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Secondly, Superman has cracked half of the Earth's moon when the indirect shockwave from his punch rebounded off the Black Racer (Superman: The Man of Steel #116)

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Lastly, Superman has his infamous shadow moon feat when he destroyed the shadow moon whilst moving at just under the speed of light (Justice League of America #30)

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To those DBZ fans reading who would only treat it the same as Master Roshi's Kamehameha on the moon, the Shadow Moon had the exact same mass as the real moon stated on panel (whereas the mass is not stated in DBZ) and was travelling at 7,614,000 km per hour, or 4,731,120 mph. And yes although Superman was knocked out afterwards, the shadow moon was composed of unstable dark matter along with travelling at millions of miles per hour so the velocity and explosion was greater than normal. Lastly, although it is a bullrush, its physical destructive output is easily equal to, if not greater than Goku's SSJ3 punch.

Durability

That is largely because it is hammered home each time that saiyans can't breathe in space. It is a huge point in DBZ and even Super. Frieza's durability cannot possible be greater than Goku's durability as an SSJ3, the difference between the two is incredibly large. Yet because Frieza can breathe in space he doesn't have to worry about them. And Superman's heat vision isn't planetary.

Goku's intability to breath in space is a factor but I strongly believe in the validity of evidence shown in both the manga and anime that Goku cannot survive a planet busting attack on his own durability. As I said, there have been 3 occasions when Goku has either escaped from, or been killed by planet busting attacks.

  1. Goku cries out in rage when he can't escape from Namek just before the planet blows. If it hadn't been for the escape pod, he would have died on Namek.
  2. Goku is outright killed by Semi Perfect Cell's explosion at point blank range meant to blow up the Earth that destroys King Kai's planet.
  3. Goku rushes to escape from Earth with Vegeta before Kid Buu blows it up with his planet busting attack.

The last two certainly don't specify a lack of oxygen as the reason for why Goku was killed or was rushing to escape. By Goku's own durability, he has died to planet busting attacks where Frieza has survived them. It is only fair to measure planetary based on how each character has fared on panel. And that logically means Frieza is more durable than Goku. Even Superman tanking collateral planet explosions shows much better durability than Goku (Superman: War of the Supermen #1 and Superman #37)

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But that same Frieza was capable of blowing up planet Vegeta with a single blast in his first form. It was his most powerful attack at the time but that fact that he was able to do this in his first form means that his attacks in his final form should be capable of doing so. Especially when he clearly trying to kill Goku. Frieza really has no reason to hold back his attacks.

That single blast was charged up for a period of time and able to destoy the core of Planet Vegeta unlike Frieza's blast on Namek's core. But in that case Frieza was contradicting himself when he said he held back his power and he somehow isn't a planet buster in his Final Form. Your argument falls into a logical pitfall this way, if Frieza could blow up the planet why didn't he just do so? I'm not saying Frieza isn't a planet buster to be clear, but I am saying Frieza's use of planetary energy beams does not seem to add up. Furthermore, Frieza's energy beams didn't appear to have planetary range when he fired them on Goku.

But Goku also tanked a kamehameha from Kid Buu. Kid Buu's casual blast would have busted the Earth if it wasn't redirected while Buu then just blew it with an even larger blast. But the Kamehameha focuses all his power into a single attack. As for why the planet wasn't destroyed. It's because the planet's size is supposed to a tenth of the universe. And neither Kid Buu or Goku have the power to blow up such a large planet.

This is the first I've head of the Supreme Kai's planet being a tenth of the universe. Is there any confirmation for that being the case?

Well Goku has incredible durability when it comes to energy based attacks. Here is an example of Goku tanking an island leveling attack from Piccolo. Goku was able to continue despite tanking this. It was a incredibly powerfull attack andI don't think Superman can replicate something like this with just heat vision. And even then this is just a low end feat for Goku. Who has tanked far worse.

Which includes attacks from Frieza and Kid Buu. Two casual planet busters. Now Doomsday has good durability feats but it's his energy durability that really matters. I think we can both agree that there is a difference between tanking energy attacks, physical attacks and piercing attacks. And Goku's energy durability is incredible. Superman's heat vision doesn't really have the destructive power that DBZ characters do especially those Goku have faced.

Despite my disagreements with what you're saying, you're holding to the energy durability side of the debate commendably. Nonetheless, I still don't think Goku's energy durability is what it's cracked up to be and additionally Superman's heat vision is also a temperature kind of attack, and Goku hasn't fared that well against lava, both in DBZ and Super. It's not destructive power that will enable Superman to harm Goku with heat vision, it's Goku's vulnerability to heat related attacks. Wonder Woman is durable enough to casually bathe in lava (something Goku can't do without a ki shield) and tank nukes to the face unscathed.

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Yet Superman can easily burn her with his heat vision in their fights (Wonder Woman #175 and Wonder Woman #219)

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Lastly for heat vision feats, Superman's heat vision destroyed a forcefield that Supergirl and John Stewart combined couldn't get past (Final Crisis #6)

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Superman's freeze breath might be problematic but Goku should be able to break himself out using either raw strength or through his tk. Here is an example of him exploding a large piece of ground just by staring at it so he can make grave for Vegeta.

I know Goku has better TK feats than that, that one's not going to get him out of Superman's freeze breath when it can incapacitate Bizarro.

Speed

I suppose it is hyperbolic. But if Krillin and Roshi were able to have a full on fight in a fraction of second in early dragonball. Goku and Vegeta being able to fight in a heartbeat is consistent.

I'm curious as to why Krillin and Roshi's fight is what makes Goku and Vegeta's fight in a heartbeat consistent. Anyway, I don't agree with a heartbeat fight being a relativistic or lightspeed feat.

The specific feat is. I can admit that not all his other attacks move at the same speed and we don't see anyone actually dodge an FTL blast at Saiayn Saga. But this was just a feat to show that speed of characters attack does increase as the character get's stronger and that they do posses blasts that can move at FTL speeds. The attack clearly took less time than Roshis. So an attack from someone like Cell's kamehameha should be FTL and Goku dodged them.

You can at least prove characters on Cell's level can fire Kamehamehas FTL since there are respective speed feats to go along with this idea. But DB and Saiyan Saga characters being at that level seemed a bit off to me at least since we never saw them dodge such attacks. I can accept Goku dodging Cell's Kamehameha as a FTL on that basis in exchange.

Fair enough. But with the beams being light speed, Goku would have to be able to react and move at FTL speeds himself to be able do block every single one them. Also Frieza's beams when using more power should be faster. Which Goku managed to dodge as a supersaiyan.

Fair enough, the Frieza saga is where FTL speed feats can be proven in DBZ.

What meant was that it is the description the attack. the attack itself is light. And Goku managed to escape the lightball the instant it exploded to avoid the light hitting him. Madara's light fang is just the attack name, Like how Piccolo's special beam canon was first called the light of death.

In the case of Madara's light-fang and Piccolo's light of death. It's just the attacks name so it is not necessarily a light attack. While in the instance of the Paralyzing light ball. it was the attack itself or it's description if you understand what I'm getting at.

Yeah I just wanted to make sure that was what you were getting at. Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon and Madara's Light Fang only have light in their names whereas what Goku did was avoid a lightspeed explosion from Frieza's attack.

Anyways I can bring up the instance when Gohan as an ssj2 faced Cell's Kamehameha. I will bring up Gohan as a SSJ2 a couple of times in this debate. I don't really like powerscaling but I think It's should be fairly obvious that if Gohan can do something as an SSJ2, Goku would be able to replicate it as a SSJ2 himself or as a SSJ3. Now Unlike Goku who had to teleport out of the Cell's kamehameha. Gohan was able to fire his own Kamehameha out of the planet before Cell's attack hit the planet. With Gohan's own Kamehameha moving at FTL speeds. Goku had surpassed this Gohan during the Buu Saga as Majin Vegeta explicitly pointed out.

Because Goku as a SSJ2 was stated to be stronger than Gohan when he fought Cell and SSJ3 is a level above that etc. I have the gist of it. I can't say I'm a fan of this approach but the power scaling is at least supported in the manga. However, even assuming Goku can fire Kamehamehas at FTL speeds, Superman does have a way to avoid such attacks completely even if he lacked the speed to evade it or the durability to tank it.

So has Goku. This doesn't necessarily equate to him being able to deal with Goku's speed. Goku was FTL at base and here he is SSJ3. I'm not going to use multipliers because power levels do not work linearly. However it does show that just being fast doesn't mean you can avoid being to fast to blitz.

But being FTL would enable one to keep up with Goku's speed and Superman does have several FTL combat speed blitzes. He's blitzed New 52 Doomsday to Venus whilst trading blows along the way (Superman: Doomed #1) It takes light 6 minutes to reach Venus yet Superman was able to fly and trade blows with Doomsday in the span of a few thoughts.

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He's blitzed Darkseid from Earth to the sun in a few minutes (Superman/Batman #13) Light takes 8.5 minutes to travel between the Earth and the sun and Superman had already flown Darkseid to the edge of the sun in less than that time.

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In JLA #63, Superman blitzes a ship travelling towards Earth at 'extra saturated lightspeeds' according to Kyle Rayner's ring. A poor choice of words, but the implication is clearly that the ship is moving at FTL speeds. Superman was able to blitz the ship before it hit the Earth, whilst detecting that there was no life on board and targeting anything that looked like an engine. So this shows FTL perceptions as well as FTL combat speed.

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Finally, Superman blitzed Wonder Woman from the Earth to the sun (Wonder Woman #213)

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He was using heat vision on her and struggling during the blitz which indicates FTL on both speed and perceptions. I've already mentioned how fast light travels from the sun to the Earth in the Darkseid example but this time we have quantifiable measurements given in the comic. This is because Maxwell Lord tracked their fight via Brother Eye. He confirmed it took 1 minute and 52 seconds from the start of the fight to the end.

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That's 9.4 billion km per hour or 5.9 billion mph at least for Superman to get to the sun and back in less than 2 minutes and then continue the fight again. I've already agreed Goku is the faster of the two but Superman is now clearly shown to be no slouch in the combat speed department.

They are undoubtedly fast. But again being able to blitz character doesn't mean you can avoid being blitz. Both Jeice and Burter are massively hypersonic. And I would say are both several times faster than lightening. Yet they were able to do nothing to Goku. Goku has been shown to be faster than those who are even FTL. For example Frieza. Frieza was faster than the Goku who deflected the light beams and dodged the paralyzing light. Yet as an SSJ Goku was able to blitz him and now move his entire body out of the way of his light beams instead of just deflecting them

Superman is also several times faster than lightning, hell even at his Pre DOS/early Post Crisis power levels, he still easily reacted to lightning.

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But of course Kid Goku was trained to move faster than lightning in Dragon Ball is what you'll say in response.

Goku was also able to blitz Android 19 with ease. Android 19 doesn't really have many feats but is on similar level to Frieza. He may not be FTL for sure but he is still extremely fast being strong enough to require Goku and Vegeta to go SSJ. However He was still easily blitzed by Goku when they fought. A Goku suffering from Heart disease no less.

I don't see Android 19 or 20 being on par with Frieza myself. Both were largely unimpressive in terms of their physicals and energy projection, it was their energy absorption which allowed them to pose more than a minor threat to the Z Fighters at their current levels. Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan to fight them seemed to be more going overkill than needing to transform. They thought they were the Androids that killed them in the future after all. I also see that Dr Gero states that Goku's power increase is far above his calculated data and that Android 19 would be defeated before he could absorb Goku's power.

Most of DBZ character stronger than a ssj should be FTL. There aren't many instances of Goku blitzing people mainly because in most occasions he fought people equal or stronger than him and were easily FTL bar Yakon. But here is a final example of him blitzing this time against Fat Buu as a SSJ3. Fat Buu was certainly FTL and was blizting others who were FTL such as SSJ2 Gohan and Majin Vegeta. Both of whom are as fast as the people you showed Superman Blitzing.

I can provide feats for Fat Buu to further my point. My point being that showing Superman blitzing people doesn't save him from being blitzed. Now I want to make it clear that i doubt Goku would blitz Clark as easily as done above. And yes Goku won't be running circles around him. But he will use his speed to avoid most of Clark's attacks and get more hits in.

Given that Fat Buu was often childlike and playful even before he separated from his evil half, and his regeneration being the best in DBZ, it can be argued that often kept Buu from utilising his speed as effectively as other DBZ characters. I would need to see Fat Buu's speed feats for consideration since I'm not as familiar with his feats as I am with other DBZ characters.

Several of those people Superman was shown blitzing were nearly, if not equally as fast as him such as Maxima and Wonder Woman. And with feats of Superman blitzing people at FTL speeds now, that should provide further evidence that Superman does have the ability to keep Goku on his toes so Goku will not be outclassing Superman with his speed.

They are closer in this regard. the feats you have shown so far are impressive. But dodging lasers isnt really that impressive. Dodging near Light speed lasers are not as impressive as being able to casually deflect beams of light it self. As for the kyrptonite laser. Unless I'm missing something that makes them superior to regular lasers I don't see how this impressive.

I didn't mean to imply Kryptonite lasers were superior to regular lasers, there's nothing to indicate they are. However, I still think they're decent showings of speed for Superman because he had been weakened by exposure to Kryptonite beforehand yet was still able to evade further attacks from those Kryptonite lasers. It's still an impressive speed feat for a weakened Superman is all I was saying.

Impressive for sure. But I don't see how much this would help him in a battle against Goku.

If they don't count as helpful against Goku, perhaps Superman tracking lightspeed signals (Superman #653) and perceiving photons (JLA: Heaven's Ladder) which move at lightspeed,if not possibly FTL speeds would be more useful.

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Now Goku can use his instant Transmission for multiple purposes. To get superman by surprise or by avoiding his attacks. I have already show the two instances of his usage of the technique against Cell. First to dodge his FTL attacks. And Second to surprise him with the Kamehameha. Goku do this here as well.

Here is an instance of him training with Vegeta. As I have already stated that Goku and Vegeta are equals. Their combat speed, reactionary speed are exactly the same at this point of the story. But Goku is still the superior of the two because of his battle smarts and techniques. The example of this is when they trained and Goku utilized the instant transmission to dodge each and every single one of Vegeta's punches.

...However if Goku is able to use Instant transmission to avoid attacks from someone who is equal in every regard what's stopping him from using it against Superman who we have both agreed has inferior combat speed to Goku.

When you combine Goku's use of Instant Transmission and his combat speed. Superman will have a difficulty tagging Goku. Though I will see what technique you have for superman to help him from this.

Well there isn't stopping Goku from using Instant Transmission on Superman as far as I can tell. However, Vegeta lacks Superman's extrasensory powers and hearing to properly counter Goku's IT technique. I believe Superman has the means to develop a counter for Instant Transmission mid battle once he sees Goku show it off. Now my strategy is based on the anime, and Dragon Ball GT at that, but I may as well be honest about where I got the idea from. I can still justify its use with the manga only rule for our debate.

During the SSJ4 Goku vs Super Android 17 fight, 17 was able to predict and counter Goku's use of Instant Transmission because he could sense the vibrations in the atmosphere at the point of re-entry (In case I haven't copied the video link right, the bit I'm talking about is at 7:29)

https://youtu.be/2PFrPFDBzTY?t=449

When I saw that video, I thought to myself that this matches up with Superman's sensory powers rather nicely. Then I found Superman can predict attacks by the shift in the air currents and can recognise unique sounds in the air such as the way air sounds as objects move through it.

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Superman is also attuned to and able to sense vibrations as he explained to Darkseid about the worlds of the Multiverse's vibrations before he cancelled out Darkseid's vibrations (Final Crisis #7) And in case anyone (not you ET) really thinks I'm using this as proof Superman can beat Goku by singing, trust me I'm not. This is just about Superman sensing vibrations.

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Sure I've gotten creative with my strategy but you could still argue that Superman hasn't countered anyone with teleportation. Not so, Superman has countered Ruin's teleportation by recognising the sound of his tubes working harder when he teleported.

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Lastly for this counter, Goku's Instant Transmission has a sound effect of "biii" in the Super manga and "fft" in the DBZ manga indicating it does make a sound in the manga. So IT does make a sound in the manga. Since Superman has the super hearing precise enough to identify that sound and the strategic mind to develop this counter strategy in mid battle as he has done before, I do not believe it is a stretch for Superman to start predicting and countering Goku's use of Instant Transmission.

Energy Manip vs Superman's Durability

But he is fighting in an indestructible planet. And it's not like Goku hasn't resorted to using planetary attacks when he needed to. Cell was tanking all his attacks so he went for a planetary attack against him. Goku is not against firing planetary attacks and he will if Superman tanks every thing else he does.

He won't start of by spamming planetary attacks like someone like Buu or Frieza. But he will use them when the time comes.

Goku has only used such attacks when the situation calls for it. We never specified whether Goku or Superman know the planet they're fighting on is indestructible so technically Goku is still likely to avoid using planetary attacks because he doesn't want to die in the explosion or suffocate in the vacuum of space.

But I wouldn't be arguing for Superman if I didn't think he was a major threat to Goku. And since I think he definitely is, Goku would therefore be willing to treat him as a threat and use planetary attacks eventually. Nonetheless, Superman has the durability to stand up to these attacks.

Well it could have do with the technique. The kamehameha allows one to concentrate all his power into a single point. Kind Piccolo didn't have such an attack. While Piccolo could only do this once he made the special beam cannon. Also King Piccolo did his feat casually while Roshi was completely drained. While Piccolo had already been through a grueling battle with Goku and was still able to fire blasts after that.

So you're saying the different type type of ki techniques is why Piccolo didn't have access to such an attack just to be clear?

The attack clearly missed the planet though. Goku fired the blast upwards. Vegeta's blast did the same. It skimmed the planet but didn't drectly hit the planet. For the planet to have been blown up with have to have been downwards on it.

Goku made sure he didn't fire the blast from the sky and teleported right infront of Cell so that he didn't hit the planet directly and to surprise Cell.

This isn't including the anime so I can't point out the explosion that happened afterwards. Even so, the blast is not shown shooting up into space like Vegeta's Final Flash or Goku's Kaio Ken Kamehameha. There must have been some direct contact with the planet based on the damage to the surrounding area.

I know Goku teleported down so he didn't fire the beam from the sky onto the planet but for that attack to have done that much damage to Cell, it was obviously powerful as you've been arguing it to be. And surprise was also a factor since Cell was expecting Vegeta's Final Flash but not Goku's Kamehameha.

Vegeta's final flash still hit Cell head on. And it was much larger attack(in size) to what Goku did. Also you have to take into account that Cell was still holding back his power against Vegeta. While against Goku he had powered up to his max. And Cell lost a lost a considerable amount of Energy after that attack while he didn't when tanked Vegetas. The distance from where it was fired from shouldn't make a difference.

It did hit Cell head on but Vegeta had goaded Cell into staying where he was as a test of strength. And Cell still managed to move out of the way slightly when he realised Vegeta's Final Flash was more powerful than expected. The success of Goku's attack came mainly down to the surprise of him using Instant Transmission as well which Cell was not expecting.

Goku's kamehameha is clearly more powerful. And it makes sense logically considering he is stronger then Vegeta.

I still think it's debatable, Vegeta's Final Flash had a larger AOE, only grazed Cell and shot off far into space whereas Goku's Kamehameha is considered more powerful to you based on what damage it did to Cell.

And later on as a ssj3 he doesn't necessarily need to to say the whole thing to fire the attack. SSJ3 Goku has shown to ability to fire powerful Kamehameha's without having to say anything on a couple of occasions.

As you can notice in both instances Goku's kamehameha doesn't hit the planet. As SSJ3 his kamehameha should be certainly planetary. Considering SSJ level character were capable of firing them with relative ease.

I'd almost forgotten Goku could fire Kamehamehas without a word in the Buu Saga. That puts a damper in my criticism. Still, this is variable with Goku even in the manga without the anime, sometimes he says the attack name, sometimes he doesn't. There's a reason that trope is considered synonymous with DBZ after all.

Now this is impressive and quantifiable. But it's certainly not enough to save Superman from surviving Goku's attacks. Goku's energy attacks are far easily greater. The attack based of the scans is around mountain level. This is something low level DBZ characters are capable of doing with ease.

If that and the Imperiex Probe feats aren't good/quantifiable enough, perhaps I should move onto energy attacks from beings more powerful than Goku or Superman. He's one of the few beings who can consistently tank Darkseid's Omega Beams.

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He's withstood Infinity Man's energy beams during Death of the New Gods #7, and Infinity Man was the designated killer of many powerful New Gods in that storyline, including Orion who's on par with Superman.

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New 52 Superman took an energy blast from Mobius (Justice League #49)

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He'd just unleashed his God of Strength Apokolips solar power on Mobius so he was back to his regular power levels. Furthermore, the same Mobius disintegrated New 52 Ultraman.

An injured Superman was still capable of surviving one of Rao's blasts (Justice League of America vol 4 #8

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And just so I have something clearly greater than mountain level, Superman has survived an explosion equivalent to a million nuclear blasts.

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Yes Superman was clearly at his limit here but he's become more powerful and durable since then as I have shown scans of Superman surviving planetary sized attacks.

Anyway by the time we reach the Buu Saga. It is pretty evident that planetary blasts can be done pretty easily. For example Kid Buu who Goku is equal to in terms of raw power as a SSJ3. (Goku would have killed him if not for regen). Kid Buu was going to destroy a planet with a casual blast. However Vegeta in his SSJ1 form was able to easily redirect with his own attack. Vegeta at this point was inferior to Goku as well.

I can accept Buu's blast being planet busting but I don't think that necessarily means Vegeta's deflecting blast was equally powerful. It just looks like Vegeta redirected its line of fire with a precisely fired ki blast. What you've shown seems to be more about precision than power.

Now Buu was later able to make a blast that they couldn't deflect. This just means that Buu is capable of creating blasts more powerful than the average planet busting attack which was why his second one couldn't be deflected while the first one could. As a SSJ3 Goku has as much power as Kid Buu. He was confident that he could beat him alone for a reason despite seeing him use an energy blast that powerful.

Was SSJ3 Goku equal to Kid Buu in terms of power alone? I agree regeneration is why Buu won but Buu had feats like casually blowing up the Earth and managing to repel the Spirit Bomb. As I will show in the next part, Goku's confidence in being able to beat Kid Buu might have been misplaced based on the SSJ3 form's weakness.

I agree that Superman's durability is superior than Goku's. But Goku does have the damage out put to overcome his incredible durability. His king kai planet strike is more deadly than this.

Good thing Superman has even more incredible physical durability feats to resist this attack.

He's tanked being punched through the Earth by Bizarro whilst his mind was inside Bizarro.

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And he's been punched to the moon twice and been fine afterwards (Superman: 10 Cent Adventure and Action Comics #762)

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So Superman has the physical durability to take Goku's best blows.

Stamina

Durability is one way Superman can outlast Goku. Another way is through his superior stamina, endurance and energy efficiency. This is something I brought up in my CAV with Pope. Goku's concentrated ki attacks and Super Saiyan transformations may increase his power and damage output, but I've found they are extremely taxing on Goku's body and ki supply. Before Goku could go Super Saiyan, he had to rely on the Kaio Ken to increase his power in battle and King Kai told Goku to never use above Kaio Ken times two as the toll on his body might be too great. After using the Kaio Ken times 3 on Vegeta, Goku thought he would be the first to give in. And after the Kaio Ken times four, Goku was in immense pain, struggling to breath and had reached his limit (read right to left)

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You might say the Super Saiyan transformation was less taxing on the body, but that wouldn't be true. Goku going Super Saiyan during the fight with Android 19 made the heart virus he was suffering from stronger for instance.

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Furthermore, after Goku used his Kamehameha on Cell, that significantly decreased his ki and he was struggling to catch his breath afterwards. Cell noted Goku had lost a lot of strength and even allowed him the chance to eat a senzu bean so he could get back to full power.

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This was also indicated in the Super manga during Goku's fight with Hit where Vados states Goku was using up a lot of stamina to keep up with Hit's time skip and that would cause him to deplete his stamina first.

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But most importantly, this is about the rule you wanted for this debate for Goku to start off in Super Saiyan 3 straight away. Super Saiyan 3 is Goku's best chance of beating Superman but it also makes him incredibly vulnerable as you already know. Compared to the Kaio Ken and regular Super Saiyan form, SSJ3 is a massive drain on Goku's body since it requires an incredible amount of ki to maintain. After SSJ3 Goku fought Kid Buu, Vegeta switched with Goku to give him time to charge up for a minute his ki and use a powerful attack to destroy Buu. However, Goku spent well over 5 minutes charging his ki yet his body eventually started to lose ki/chi and reverted back to his base form.

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As Goku states in the last scan, Super Saiyan 3 takes too much chi to use whilst alive. Which means if Goku overtaxes himself in that form, he'll start to lose power and drain himself dry of ki. Hell, Goku needed a wish from Porunga to bring him back to full strength so he could use the Spirit Bomb on Kid Buu properly since Buu repelled the Spirit Bomb in Goku's drained state.

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In contrast, Superman's stamina is much better and his body being a solar battery allows him to conserve energy more efficiently. Unlike Goku's voracious appetite and lazy sleeping when not training, Superman's body doesn't need food or rest as stated by Batman when he got Superman's powers in Superman/Batman #54.

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It's been stated by Batman that Superman's body absorbs 140 gigawatts of solar energy at any given moment (Superman Unchained #2) Which is the equivalent of all the light in a five-hundred and eighty million square meter radius, about 5% of the area of the United States.

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Ruin stated that Lex Luthor's theory that the more emotional stress Superman is under, like in the heat of battle, the more solar energy he retains from the sun was correct.

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And unlike Goku needing rest or a senzu bean to gain his strength back, Superman can replenish solar energy mid battle. High-intensity red sunlight radiation from Ruin that weakened Superman is driven out once Superman is outside in contact with the yellow sun (Adventures of Superman #647)

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Superman has even used this tactic intentionally once to wear down Mongul II, stating that Mongul doesn't have his stamina under a yellow sun.

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But Superman doesn't have to intentionally use this tactic for it to be effective. Goku's immensely taxing Super Saiyan 3 is a ticking time bomb that is waiting to go off as he cannot use SSJ3 for a long duration. Whereas Superman's solar battery body will keep him empowered for more than long enough to defeat Goku. I know you'll argue strongly that Goku can beat Superman before he loses too much strength, but Superman's much higher durability coupled with his stamina is more likely to keep him in the fight whilst Goku's energy will plummet in a short time once he starts going all out.

Skill

Superman definitely posses combat experience that rivals Goku. But I don't think his combat smarts are as great. Like I said Goku's entire life revolves around fighting and making himself stronger. A lot of Superman's training is him getting a better grasp on his own powers. Superman is able to use his powers in different ways. But Goku is able to to do so. Such as when he he was busy punching around Frieza whilst charging a kamehameha to fire at him. Or the instance of him using instants transmission against Vegeta.

Goku's life does revolve around fighting where Superman's does not, but that doesn't take away from what Superman has learnt in his career as a superhero or how well he's mastered his powers. He's also capable of making strategic decisions because of his genius intellect that Goku would never think of because he lacks the knowledge to come up with such plans. Take this instance from Action Comics #839 where Superman hits Bloodsport just hard enough to make him shoot Silver Banshee and take out Livewire in the process.

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In terms of using his powers I agree. But I think Goku's Martial arts skill is greater than Supermans. I might as well bring up the instance where Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman discuss speed. Superman's raw speed is superior but Diana's training helps her make up for it and her muscle memory. Goku has received training from the gods of his universe, including Whis. Not to mention unlike Diana he does have the raw speed advantage as well.

I think most people think Goku's martial arts skill is greater than Superman's, myself included. Superman does have some combat training from Batman, Wonder Woman and Mongul II though, and he's especially skilled at targeting pressure points in battle. He's used them on a Kryptonian soldier, Mongul, Batman, Maxima and Ultraman.

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But in terms of fighting skill Goku obviously outclasses Superman. I still think Superman's powers mastery is a match for Goku's fighting knowledge though. For instance, even if Goku can resist Superman's heat vision, that doesn't mean Superman can't use it effectively. Instead of blasting Goku's body, he can aim for Goku's face or eyes and blind him temporarily, leaving him vulnerable to attack. This is something New 52 Superman in particular did a lot of the time, though Pre 52 Superman has a couple instances of it too.

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This would give Superman a chance to land a free hit on a disorientated Goku.

Goku's fight against Hit really displays his skill. He had only seen Hit fight once against Vegeta and he didn't really know what his powers were. However he was able top get a graps of Hit's fighting styles on was able to predict Hit's movement. Hit is capable of jumping through time so be able to predict his movements are really impressive.

Goku was able to think and react to Hit as an SSJ at incredibly high speeds. He was predicting dozens of attacks in an instance. Now Hit had jut stomped a 10% SSB Vegeta. WHo is still more powerful than SSJ Goku. This just shows how GOku is able to use his combat smarts to take on an opponent who is superior to him.

I see why you wanted to use this example in our debate, it certainly highlights Goku's combat smarts well. Superman is no stranger to using strategy to win fights instead of just knocking out his opponents. One method Superman can use to great effect on Goku is to blitz him into space and use the pressure drop and shortage of air to choke Goku out.

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He wouldn't need to know of Goku's inability to breathe in space either, he's used this tactic on at least 4 different opponents before.

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He wouldn't have to kill Goku this way to win but since killing is allowed, Superman can go the extra mile in ensuring Goku wouldn't be breathing easily any time soon.

As to how relevant this will be in battle. Well Goku already has Basic knowledge on Superman. Being able to determine the way he fights will play a major part in Goku being able to avoid Superman's attacks.

I'm curious what you mean about basic knowledge playing a factor in the battle. I've justified Superman blitzing Goku into space to asphyxiate him without any need for prior knowledge for instance. Goku's basic knowledge is mainly that Superman is another powerful alien who gets his powers from a yellow sun. I'm not sure how he can exploit that knowledge in battle.

Final points

  1. Superman is most likely the physically superior of the two and even if he weren't, Goku's durability against physical damage is pretty poor so he's more vulnerable to taking physical damage than Superman. Between the moon busting and planetary striking feats, those trump Goku harming Frieza and King Kai's planet feat.
  2. Goku does hold the speed edge as agreed but Superman has FTL combat speed and perceptions to keep up with him.
  3. Instant Transmission may prove advantageous for Goku initially but Superman has the superhuman senses to predict and counter this move once he's seen it in action. Which will make it harder for Goku to keep out of reach and easier for Superman to hit him.
  4. Not only is Goku's durability inferior to Superman's, his stamina is also much lower especially as a SSJ3. Goku is liable to wear himself out fighting Superman before he can successfully finish Superman off.
  5. Superman's durability has resisted transcendent tier energy blasts and planetary collateral explosions which is much better than what has actually been shown for the potency Goku's Kamehameha's.
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#95 Posted by blackpantherisb (7337 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#96 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio
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#97 Posted by blackpantherisb (7337 posts) - - Show Bio

Are you guys starting this up again ?

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#98 Edited by APEX_pretador (21308 posts) - - Show Bio

This is better than expected

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#99 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio
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#100 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio
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