CaV: Supergirl and Power Girl (WollfMyth209) vs Superman (KrleAvenger)

@thor_parker82@blackestnight93@asgardianbrony@batman3000@g2@battle123ax@jardinain2@major_hellstorm@darkhoudini@uugieboogie@brucerogers@supremegeneration@lvenger@thekinfing@emperorthanos@heirtothekingdom

For starters, Kara has been stated multiple times as rivalling and perhaps even surpassing Clark:

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Superman himself has admitted that she can kill him:

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Then again, these are just statements and they don't neccessarily have to be 100% valid, but Supergirl is sporting feats that suggest her strength is comparable to Superman's. After a sparring match with Grace Choi and Thunder where she continuously let them score hits and damage her, Supergirl easily breaks her restraints when she stops fooling around:

For reference, these restraints were made from Kryptonite and designed to weaken her whenever she trained/sparred with the other Outsiders:

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An evil Supergirl strangled/restrained Martian Manhunter, who was arguably the most powerful member of the JLA:

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Hell, even an injured Supergirl who just got off from facing Lex Luthor, the JLA and her evil half managed to give Superman a pretty good fight and land solid hits on him before Supes knocked her down:

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I think this proves Supergirl on her own can give Superman hell with regards to strength, and the addition of Power Girl seals the deal. Power Girl is stronger than Supergirl per Kara's own admission:

And she's caused Kara to double over in pain with a bullrush, despite Power Girl not being "at a hundred percent yet":

Power Girl was also capable of knocking around Captain Atom:

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She did this while under the control of Maxwell Lord, who made her think Captain Atom was a berserk Superman. She also had to rush through most of the Justice League International who kept trying to subdue her while she focused on Atom. Now it should be noted that Atom did not want to go all-out since that would mean he'd let loose radiation across a heavily populated city and he was holding back against a dear friend, but under similar circumstances Atom managed to successfully break out of Superman's hold and stagger him with an elbow strike to the face:

Context: Superman in the scan above was under the influence of the macrolatts, which amplified his powers and made him go full bloodlust mode, basically.

And the final feat I'd like to call into consideration(in this post, anyways) is Kara's and Karen's feat against Ultraman, Superman's near-equal in every regard. The Saturn Queen took control of Ultraman and made him into a monarch of Kandor. Supergirl and Power Girl fought to liberate Kandor and in the process came to blows twice with Ultraman and both times he was knocked on his arse and left helpless:

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Individually I'll concede both Power Girl and Supergirl are inferior to Superman, though they are comparable enough to contend. Collectively, however, they should be more than capable of meeting him head on.

Both Supergirl and Power Girl should be faster than Superman on their own. Kara moved faster than him in the past:

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She's also blitzed John Stewart, easily removing his ring from his hand before he even noticed; John has demonstrated the ability to react to Superman multiple times:

Power Girl has similarly moved too fast for Wonder Woman, who has been noted as having superior reflexes to Superman:

So with both these two ladies being capable of outspeeding and outflying Superman on their own, he's going to have his hands full tackling both of them at once.

Both Supergirl and Power Girl on their own would be capable of giving Clark a solid fight due to their comparable strength and superior speed. However, both of them at the same time would be too much for the man of steel. Given how well these two can coordinate together, it shouldn't be hard for one of them to distract Superman while the other hits him from behind. Both have already shown the ability to aid their teammates if anything goes south:

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I just want to point something out in order to avoid confusion. I am using Pre-Flashpoint or Post-Crisis Superman, the character who existed since 1987, after Crisis of Infinite Earths up until the fall of 2011 when Flashpoint came out and rebooted DC Universe. So Superman I'm using has decades of appearances and plethora of feats to put him above most, if not all High Tiers of the DC Universe. He is also superior to his (probably more famous on Vine) New 52 counterpart in pretty much every way, which includes striking power, speed, reflexes, durability, heat vision, freeze breath, knowledge, intellect, fighting skill/martial arts, tactical capabilities, senses and pretty much anything you can think of (besides pure physical strength, which is not as impressive compared to the New 52 version). This Superman also doesn't have Solar Flare, but that power is stupid anyway so it doesn't matter. Because this is Pre-Flashpoint Superman, I'm allowed to use feats he preformed during Rebirth. Also, to make it easier to follow, I will separate my post in multiple sections and put each section under the spoiler block. I saw multiple debaters doing it recently so I'm stealing the idea. Now, let's get into the actual debate.

For starters, Kara has been stated multiple times as rivalling and perhaps even surpassing Clark:

Superman himself has admitted that she can kill him:

Like you said, those are just statements and I consider them to be DC's fail attempt to overhype Supergirl into being more than she actually is. You claim you have feats to prove she is powerful enough to take Clark down. Let's see what those might be.

Then again, these are just statements and they don't neccessarily have to be 100% valid, but Supergirl is sporting feats that suggest her strength is comparable to Superman's. After a sparring match with Grace Choi and Thunder where she continuously let them score hits and damage her, Supergirl easily breaks her restraints when she stops fooling around:

For reference, these restraints were made from Kryptonite and designed to weaken her whenever she trained/sparred with the other Outsiders:

I'm not sure why that feat alone proves Kara's strength is comparable to Clark's. We don't know how durable those restrains are. Just because they affect her because they are made of Kryptonite doesn't mean that feat is anything impressive, especially because Kryptonite is as consistent as the Sentry. Sometimes, the Kryptonians will get hurt by something inferior to them while affected by the small dose of Kryptonite and sometimes they will tank very powerful attacks without much trouble while affected by massive amounts of Kryptonite. Allow me to show you one feat that I consider to be way more impressive than the one you posted. In Superman/Batman #4 Captain Marvel blitzed Superman, putting him down. Clark distracted him with Heat Vision and got up, started to go toe to toe with him, tanking his blows as well as blocking his punch until he overpowered Billy.

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The reason why this is so impressive is, well obviously Captain Marvel is 100+ tonner who based on what I have seen, is as strong, if not stronger than Supergirl and Power Girl. But Clark was also weakened in this issue by Kryptonite asteroid approaching.

An evil Supergirl strangled/restrained Martian Manhunter, who was arguably the most powerful member of the JLA:

Martian Manhunter was consistently introduced as a character who can beat characters stronger than Superman (or as strong as Superman) even without relying on his telepathy and phasing. I consider that to be just a low/bad showing for J'onn instead of good showing for Kara.

Hell, even an injured Supergirl who just got off from facing Lex Luthor, the JLA and her evil half managed to give Superman a pretty good fight and land solid hits on him before Supes knocked her down:

I think this proves Supergirl on her own can give Superman hell with regards to strength, and the addition of Power Girl seals the deal. Power Girl is stronger than Supergirl per Kara's own admission:

And she's caused Kara to double over in pain with a bullrush, despite Power Girl not being "at a hundred percent yet":

I'm not too worried about Power Girl's superiority over Kara because that fight between Superman and Supergirl doesn't prove that she can give him a hard time by herself. Yes, she was weakened but it doesn't change the fact that Clark did not want to fight Kara. Not only because she is his cousin, making it obviously that he doesn't want to hurt but because he didn't know which Supergirl was "the real" one, and he only wanted to talk about it. Hell, based on his facial expression he was skeptical about fighting her. That did not stop him from overpowering her and later telling her how he became much more powerful later on and how he, unlike Kara, consistently holds himself back to prevent himself from hurting anyone. So if Clark really wanted to, he could take Kara down at any time he wishes, as he said himself, in the same issue.

And this is not strength contest anyway. It's a fight and striking power is way more important in a fight than actual strength, and since the only feats I have seen from Supergirl so far are strength feats, I will post some for Superman, because I think it could be useful, in case Clark has to block their punches, overpower them with pure strength or throw them around. After all, he is fighting against two Kryptonians and Clark is extremely capable, tactical and smart fighter. No reason to assume he won't do something like that.

Stalemates Wonder Woman in strength contest, or "flying wrestling" if you prefer Superman Vol. 2 #211

Easily overpowers Wonder Woman while being controlled by Maxwell Lord, easily holding her in place until Max told him to let her go Adventures of Superman #642 and Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #219

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In the same issue during the same fight, after he tanked Diana's punch in his chin without any damage, Clark casually broke Diana's wrist, making her scream in pain.

With the help of Kyle Rayner, Clark was able to hold the Moon in place, preventing it from falling on Earth. I know that Clark stopped holding it in place at some point and Kyle was doing it alone, but after some time, Clark took over while Clark was with JLA. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find scans on any site so I had to take them from a respect thread, so I apologize for scans not being full JLA 80-Page Giant #3

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And now, to show you everybody's favorite Post-Crisis Superman strength feat. Both Clark and Hal Jordan were pulling the planet Earth by themselves Justice League of America Vol. 2 #29

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Fact that they were preventing Starbreaker from pulling the planet Earth to the Sun for quite some time, to the point that he was so weak that Aquaman was way more powerful than him makes this feat way more impressive, especially because Starkbreaker is one of the most powerful DC Teambusters.

I have another strength feat that I would like to show that I think is pretty overlooked by most Superman fans, but I would prefer to see more strength feats for Supergirl and Power Girl first.

Power Girl was also capable of knocking around Captain Atom:

She did this while under the control of Maxwell Lord, who made her think Captain Atom was a berserk Superman. She also had to rush through most of the Justice League International who kept trying to subdue her while she focused on Atom. Now it should be noted that Atom did not want to go all-out since that would mean he'd let loose radiation across a heavily populated city and he was holding back against a dear friend, but under similar circumstances Atom managed to successfully break out of Superman's hold and stagger him with an elbow strike to the face:

Context: Superman in the scan above was under the influence of the macrolatts, which amplified his powers and made him go full bloodlust mode, basically.

I will give you credit for explaining the context of that scan as well as showing what Cap is capable of even without trying harder and tapping into to Quantum Field to increase his strength. Doing something like that to Bloodlusted Superman is impressive. However, there is something worth pointing out here. That series (The Weird, which was the 4-issue limited series) came out in April 1988, with the final issue coming out in July 1988. In other words, this was during earlier years of Post-Crisis DCU. During this time, Superman wasn't as nearly as powerful as he is now. Ignoring few outliers here and there and look at his consistent showing, Superman was closer to Red Hulk in power. Superman I'm using had two power upgrades long after those issues came out, making that feat not as nearly as impressive as it seems.

Going back to Supergirl and Power Girl, based on feats you posted, they are strong enough to hold their own against powerhouses and give them a good fight while they are holding back, not while they are trying to put them down.

And the final feat I'd like to call into consideration(in this post, anyways) is Kara's and Karen's feat against Ultraman, Superman's near-equal in every regard. The Saturn Queen took control of Ultraman and made him into a monarch of Kandor. Supergirl and Power Girl fought to liberate Kandor and in the process came to blows twice with Ultraman and both times he was knocked on his arse and left helpless:

That is very impressive showing. The thing is, I have some problems with it. I'll get into it at the end of this post. But before I move on with this debate, I'm gonna ask, those armors they are wearing, are they amping them in any way?

Both Supergirl and Power Girl should be faster than Superman on their own. Kara moved faster than him in the past:

Come now mate. You can't say that Kara is faster than Clark just because she moved faster than him once, especially because they were doing nothing but flying. It is almost, if not totally useless in an actual fight, and that scan alone doesn't show any level of combat or reaction time speed for Kara. I guess you can say it is impressive that she changed direction in order to move back to Earth, but it's not like they are gonna fight each other by flying around the Solar System Silver Surfer style.

Being impressive showing of traveling speed and Kara trying to get away from Clark (at least that is how I understand that scan, so correct me if I'm wrong), this showing is not really useful for actual combat. Allow me to post some scans to prove that Clark can easily register the movements of people and objects that are faster than Kara, for example, Final Crisis #7, the issue where Clark recognized Barry Allen under the mask while reaching superluminal velocity and trying to escape from the Black Racer with Wally West.

To explain the context of this scan, Superman faced Darkseid who is controlling every human being on the planet. Before this instance however, Barry Allen, the Flash who "died" years ago, came back, without anyone being aware of it, besides Wally West, Jay Garrick and Iris. The Flashes tried to make the Black Racer chase them in order for Death to take down Darkseid. However, Racer proved to be fast enough to keep up with the Flashes. How would you feel if Death chases you? You would be terrified of course, and both Barry and Wally were terrified based on their facial expressions, so logically they were moving extremely fast. And Clark wasn't just able to notice them both, but he recognized Barry Allen, who was dead for years. I mean, he could confuse him with Bart, who was the last person who took the name of the Flash during this time (excluding Wally coming back with his kids), but no, he was able to recognize Barry, without seeing either of them coming and moving extremely fast. To show you more feats of Superman's perception, here...

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• Finds the know that controls crystal tank through the Kryptonian ship, even tho it's signals move at light speed (Superman #653)
• Clark (at his weakest) spots the electric current moving at light speed before it reaches him (Swamp Thing Vol. 2 #79)
• Clark can easily see photons, which are moving at light speed or above (JLA: Heaven's Ladder)

And to show you Clark's raw speed that he can use during combat, Clark was able to stalemate Jay Garrick in a race, a character who (despite statements saying otherwise) has multiple FTL speed feats DC's 1st: Superman/The Flash #1

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And for the sake of providing consistency, here is Clark moving the Brainiac baby few city blocks away in less than a nanosecond, in other words, moving faster than light Adventures of Superman #603

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If you want proof that Superman uses his speed during actual combat outside of just blitzing people, he did so in a fight against a giant robot, dodging his punch with such speed and he was moving like a blur. So if he has to dodge Supergirl or Power Girl, he will do it. Here is the scan I just mentioned, it's from Superman Vol. 1 #676

She's also blitzed John Stewart, easily removing his ring from his hand before he even noticed; John has demonstrated the ability to react to Superman multiple times:

I would say that this is Jeph Loeb's WIS writing because of lack of knowledge on Green Lantern's and their capabilities, but either way, while it is impressive feat, it doesn't necessarily mean Kara has speed comparable to Clark's, even less superior. Blitzing a character who is fast doesn't mean you are faster than him. Jay Garrick blitzed both Wally West and Eobard Thawne (neither of them were distracted), and we both know that he is much slower than both of them. I don't know how to compare John's speed to Supergirl's, but I doubt that Leob was aware of Lantern Ring's ability to remove the user from danger in span of a nanosecond.

Power Girl has similarly moved too fast for Wonder Woman, who has been noted as having superior reflexes to Superman:

Diana is suppose to have faster reflexes than Superman. But that is mostly because she is better fighter/martial artist and has more skill. The problem is, Diana never actually proved that her reflexes are superior to Clark's and that her skill is a factor. The only time it actually served as an advantage in her fights against Superman was during Sacrifice, but that was because Superman was controlled by Maxwell Lord, making him believe that Diana was Doomsday who tore Lois apart, literally making him bloodlusted and being ready to tear Doomsday apart and ignoring the fact that he could kill someone because of collateral damage (according to Clark himself). She even sucker punched Superman who didn't even know where she was, punching him in the ears with her bracelets, taking the advantage of Superman's super hearing, effectively weakening him. And even then, she was barely holding her own against him.

The only other time when Diana did something with her skill and reflexes against Clark was during JLA #96, but she was only able to punch Clark when he got confused and started to realize he is fighting Wonder Woman because he was controlled by Crucifier.

During their other fights, Superman proved to be superior to Diana despite Diana's physical skill, contradicting that statement about Diana having faster reflexes. Take a look at Infinite Crisis #1, the issue where Diana was ready to kill Mongul II, and Clark had no problem stopping her attack even tho she was closer to Mongul than Clark was.

Or I can show you instances during the actual fight between the two. Even when he was controlled by Maxwell Lord, fighting like a beast instead of smart, tactical and capable fighter he is, he was still able to blitz Diana, and on top of that, fighting against her at FTL speed while bullrushing her to the Sun Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #219

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Now, take a look at Superman Vol. 2 #211, another instance where Superman and Diana fought. During this issue, Superman was ready to activate the Vanishing Device in order to find out where Lois and the other citizens of Metropolis, vanished. The problem is, it is somewhat dangerous and it can be considered as suicide. So Diana tried to stop Clark. However, even tho she was attacking him with his back turned, he moved 180 degrees in front of her, stopping her attack, even tho Diana was moving so fast, she was leaving afterimages of herself.

Then, when Diana continued with her assault, she landed a punch on Clark with her shield. Clark then slammed Diana into the ground, getting kicked in the stomach afterwards by Diana. He tanked both of her attacks just fine, without any damage.

When Clark came back, telling Diana to stay away from the machine (which he refused), Clark appeared in front of her without Diana even noticing him and then "pimp clapping" her Thanos style.

And here is one showing that is overlooked by most people. It happened in JLA: A League of One. Diana wanted to take down every single member of the JLA to prevent them from dying in a fight against some dragon Drakul Karfang. She distracted Clark by relying on generic "look there" tactic and started to beat Clark up. But even tho he was sucker punched and put down, he grabbed Diana by the foot, getting her off balanced and trying to find out what is going on. Instead, Diana tries to punch Clark, but Clark easily blocked her punch and ended the fight with a quick counter attack that sends Diana flying few feet away. Hell, Diana herself said that she can't beat Clark.

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I think this is enough to prove that Diana's reflexes are not superior to Clark's despite her superior fighting skills. As for Power Girl fighting Diana, I have to say, it is an extremely impressive showing, especially because she could dodge Diana's lasso and then blitzing her. However, when Diana started to fight at best of her abilities, admitting that Power Girl is as strong and as fast as she is, she pretty much stomped her because of the use of her superior fighting skills.

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The reason why I'm bringing this up is because Diana's skill allowed her to counter Power Girl's speed, but she wasn't able to do so in her fights with Superman. So again, just because Power Girl was able to overwhelm Diana with her speed once (which is still extremely impressive feat) doesn't mean her speed is comparable to Superman's. Even when Clark was bloodlusted (not relying on his intellect and tactical fighting) and weakened and Diana had her lasso, she could only buy herself time.

Because this is just an opener and because I doubt feats you posted are remotely close to Kara's and Karen's most impressive ones, I'm just gonna go over your short "conclusion" section and explain why I think Superman wins. Shall we...

Both Supergirl and Power Girl on their own would be capable of giving Clark a solid fight due to their comparable strength and superior speed. However, both of them at the same time would be too much for the man of steel. Given how well these two can coordinate together, it shouldn't be hard for one of them to distract Superman while the other hits him from behind. Both have already shown the ability to aid their teammates if anything goes south:

Honestly, the only thing I see on those scans is Kara helping Karen out because her powers were "glitching" during the time when both of them barely knew each other, instead of some "super girls team-up/perfect team work" fighting, but I I'm not gonna get into that anyway. If they are capable of working together, that's fine. But it doesn't seem like their strategy is something difficult. It's just overwhelming Superman with numbers, which is a rather simple strategy (no offence of course) and I doubt it will work on someone like Superman.

It could work if Supergirl and Power Girl actually had any advantage over Superman, but based on feats I have seen, they don't have comparable strength nor speed, even less superior speed. I will wait to see more feats, but for now, I'm just gonna say that Superman is superior in every way and just to dangerous to be overwhelmed, being much stronger and much faster than both of them. The thing about Superman is, he is not dangerous because of his speed. His speed makes him ridiculously powerful, but what actually makes him so dangerous is his intellect and tactical capabilities that he actually relies on when he fights, analyzing his opponents while finding solution to difficult situations while using his powers at their peak, in effective and creative ways.

Since he is fighting against two opponents at the same time, I might as well show you Clark's astonishing ability to fight against multiple opponents at the same time, Ultraman and Superwoman to be exact. Clark started the fight by blitzing the evil DC Trinity and quickly incapacitating Owlman via Heat Vision knowing that it won't kill him and then relying on that same Heat Vision to heat up Superwoman's bracelets and then using Freeze Breath to restrain her. Even tho he was blitzed by Ultraman, Clark quickly made a comeback and easily overpowered Ultraman with the use of pressure points and superior skill while Superwoman was restrained. He took Ultraman down right after she freed himself, and before she could attack, Clark one shotted her and Ultraman by striking her with, Ultraman Trinity #13

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This best thing about this is the fact that Clark did all of this in seconds by himself and that both of his opponents were Kryptonite-like beings (Ultraman is a Kryptonian while Superwoman is an Amazonian with a few Superman powers). To make this even more impressive, during Superman/Batman Annual #1, Ultraman proved to be strong enough to stalemate Superman.

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I don't think it is necessary to prove that it is in character for Superman to blitz people, but for the sake of the argument, I will post some scans anyway. For example, Clark blitzed Darkseid in Death of the New Gods #8

He also blitzed some fodders called Cybermoths even tho he was weakened because he took a massive beating from Hank Henshaw few minutes before. Even Steel told Superman that he looks pretty bad Superman Man of Steel #100

He also blitzed Hunter Prey Doomsday/Brainiac twice Superman The Doomsday Wars #3

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If you need more scans, I will provide more. For now, I think this is enough. Blitzing Kara and Karen and relying on same tactics as he did in his fight against the Crime Syndicate is a good way to take them down without seriously injuring them with his powerful punches, like pressure points for example that he used on Ultraman. It is in character for him to rely on something like that. He even used it on Batman while being possessed by the Kryptonite Man Superman/Batman Vol 1 #23

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Or he can rely on the same tactic he used on Superwoman, Heat Vision/Freeze Breath combo. He did something similar in his fight with Bizarro which works well for quick takedown. Basically he fired his Heat Vision around Bizarro deep enough for the lava surrounding Earth's core to reach the surface and hit Bizarro, for Superman to incapacitate him with Freeze Breath afterwards Action Comics #845

And of course, he can always use his fists. I know Kara is his cousin and Karen is the cousin of Earth 2 version of himself who he treats as his own cousin as well, but we said that Supergirl, Power Girl and Superman are determined to win, so if he has to, he will beat them up. I doubt they will be able to tank barrage of Superman's punches. They may not be as effective as his most powerful punches, but they can still deal a lot of damage. I can bring up a lot of instances where Superman punched someone multiple times, but here is more recent one from Superman Vol. 4 #3, when Clark fought against Rebirth version of Eradicator because he absorbed Krypto.

Of course, I can always bring up more speed and strength feats for Superman, or post feats of his striking power and durability (even tho a lot of Wonder Woman scans I posted show durability feats as well), but first, I want to see more feats that prove that Supergirl and Power Girl are a match for Superman. Until then, this is all I've got. Good luck with your next post.

I'm not sure why that feat alone proves Kara's strength is comparable to Clark's. We don't know how durable those restrains are. Just because they affect her because they are made of Kryptonite doesn't mean that feat is anything impressive, especially because Kryptonite is as consistent as the Sentry. Sometimes, the Kryptonians will get hurt by something inferior to them while affected by the small dose of Kryptonite and sometimes they will tank very powerful attacks without much trouble while affected by massive amounts of Kryptonite.

Yeah, fair enough on this.

Allow me to show you one feat that I consider to be way more impressive than the one you posted. In Superman/Batman #4 Captain Marvel blitzed Superman, putting him down. Clark distracted him with Heat Vision and got up, started to go toe to toe with him, tanking his blows as well as blocking his punch until he overpowered Billy.

The reason why this is so impressive is, well obviously Captain Marvel is 100+ tonner who based on what I have seen, is as strong, if not stronger than Supergirl and Power Girl.

That's a nice feat, however Superman was clearly on the losing end. First, Billy was holding back:

Clark admits that Captain Marvel has the advantage, even if it is magic based he acknowledges he's losing:

Next, Captain Marvel lands two hits that clearly damage Superman:

And then Batman and Superman performed an "S" castling: they switched opponents, something Superman believed was a good call:

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But Clark was also weakened in this issue by Kryptonite asteroid approaching.

Batman speculated it may have an influence, but like you noted Kryptonite is not only inconsistent but this asteroid was days away from hitting Earth; the influence it would've had would be fairly limited and minute, especially since in the same series close exposure to Kryptonite left Superman nearly incapacitated.

Next, assuming Captain Marvel is as strong as Power Girl and Supergirl(which I admit is a possibility), punches on that level have knocked Superman on his arse in the past:

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And both Supergirl and Power Girl certainly have what it takes to strike as hard, or harder than either of them. She's beat up Cyborg Superman, at one point punching him so hard he went through an entire floating city:

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Kara has even knocked around Cyborg Doomsday(a perfect clone of Doomsday, who basically adapted to Hank Henshaw's powers) which is noteworthy as Diana's punches couldn't even make Doomsday flinch:

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Of note is that this was one of the genetically modified and enhanced Doomsday clones made to adapt and defeat the likes of Superboy, Steel and Hank Henshaw:

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And Power Girl has similarly knocked around and landed solid hits on Magog, who impressed Superman with his strength, in a sparring match that she won:

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And while it did start as a sparring match, it was later noted that the two more-or-less stopped holding back:

Karen has also notably managed to hurt Superman who was being mind-controlled during the JSA's Stealing Thunder storyline:

It's obvious that both Kara and Karen are capable of contending with and damaging beings in Superman's strength class.

Martian Manhunter was consistently introduced as a character who can beat characters stronger than Superman (or as strong as Superman) even without relying on his telepathy and phasing. I consider that to be just a low/bad showing for J'onn instead of good showing for Kara.

It's not uncommon for less powerful characters to strangle or hold back a stronger character, especially not in DC. It actually happens a lot of the time, even in Kara's case. It doesn't suggest she's an equal/superior to J'onn, nor should she logically be, but it shows she has the strength to damage someone on Superman's strength level.

Yes, she was weakened but it doesn't change the fact that Clark did not want to fight Kara. Not only because she is his cousin, making it obviously that he doesn't want to hurt but because he didn't know which Supergirl was "the real" one, and he only wanted to talk about it. Hell, based on his facial expression he was skeptical about fighting her.

Which is nice and all, but just because Superman doesn't plan on throwing his strongest punches doesn't mean his durability is suddenly significantly decreased from what it usually is.

That did not stop him from overpowering her and later telling her how he became much more powerful later on and how he, unlike Kara, consistently holds himself back to prevent himself from hurting anyone. So if Clark really wanted to, he could take Kara down at any time he wishes, as he said himself, in the same issue.

Clark partially said that to calm Supergirl down and Kara remained unconvinced, claiming it's only an "interesting theory"; regardless, Superman always fights with this mentality, whereas Kara is always the one to let loose. This should carry over to our CaV since they're still in-character.

Stalemates Wonder Woman in strength contest, or "flying wrestling" if you prefer Superman Vol. 2 #211

Easily overpowers Wonder Woman while being controlled by Maxwell Lord, easily holding her in place until Max told him to let her go Adventures of Superman #642 and Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #219

In the same issue during the same fight, after he tanked Diana's punch in his chin without any damage, Clark casually broke Diana's wrist, making her scream in pain.

Great feats, which indicate Superman's superiority to Diana, however both Supergirl and Power Girl should also be more physically imposing than Diana(hurting characters that shrugged off WW's blows for one and Power Girl actually overpowering her in pure strength).

With the help of Kyle Rayner, Clark was able to hold the Moon in place, preventing it from falling on Earth. I know that Clark stopped holding it in place at some point and Kyle was doing it alone, but after some time, Clark took over while Clark was with JLA. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find scans on any site so I had to take them from a respect thread, so I apologize for scans not being full JLA 80-Page Giant #3

No need to apologize, and this is a great feat but it's one Superman struggled to perform and this isn't the first time. He's struggled to perform a similar feat with the Green Lantern and Wonder Woman, outright noting he couldn't do it again:

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And an interesting tid-bit is that Superman required the aid of Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman and ironically Power Girl to movea moon; albeit the moon itself was larger than our planet's moon, but the point is Karen made a serious contribution:

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And speaking of moon-level feats, Kara managed to destroy a moon:

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And now, to show you everybody's favorite Post-Crisis Superman strength feat. Both Clark and Hal Jordan were pulling the planet Earth by themselves Justice League of America Vol. 2 #29

Fact that they were preventing Starbreaker from pulling the planet Earth to the Sun for quite some time, to the point that he was so weak that Aquaman was way more powerful than him makes this feat way more impressive, especially because Starkbreaker is one of the most powerful DC Teambusters.

That's nice, but I feel like that's much more of a feat for Hal than Superman as he was likely doing most of the work. Superman has struggled to move a planet with the aid of J'onn and Diana, and they barely moved it:

So Superman on his own can't successfully pull a planet. In fact, a satelite heading towards Earth was only capable of unleashing multi-continental damage and Superman was unable to properly stop it without Supergirl's aid:

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I will give you credit for explaining the context of that scan as well as showing what Cap is capable of even without trying harder and tapping into to Quantum Field to increase his strength. Doing something like that to Bloodlusted Superman is impressive. However, there is something worth pointing out here. That series (The Weird, which was the 4-issue limited series) came out in April 1988, with the final issue coming out in July 1988. In other words, this was during earlier years of Post-Crisis DCU. During this time, Superman wasn't as nearly as powerful as he is now. Ignoring few outliers here and there and look at his consistent showing, Superman was closer to Red Hulk in power. Superman I'm using had two power upgrades long after those issues came out, making that feat not as nearly as impressive as it seems.

And while this is true, I'd imagine that the amp Superman recieved would be enough to compensate for at least one of those power-growths, especially since he was apparently superior to even Martian Manhunter in such a state.

Going back to Supergirl and Power Girl, based on feats you posted, they are strong enough to hold their own against powerhouses and give them a good fight while they are holding back, not while they are trying to put them down.

Actually, Kara and Karen do more than just "hold their own" against powerhouses if they hold back; They practically walk all over high tiers like Captain Atom and Clark if they hold back, whereas even if they go all-out Power Girl and Supergirl can give them a good fight in a 1v1.

That is very impressive showing. The thing is, I have some problems with it. I'll get into it at the end of this post. But before I move on with this debate, I'm gonna ask, those armors they are wearing, are they amping them in any way?

The suits just serve to hide their identities, and they weren't amped. However, Ultraman was:

Come now mate. You can't say that Kara is faster than Clark just because she moved faster than him once,

Wasn't really once, and she's noted to have outflown him in the past.

especially because they were doing nothing but flying. It is almost, if not totally useless in an actual fight, and that scan alone doesn't show any level of combat or reaction time speed for Kara. I guess you can say it is impressive that she changed direction in order to move back to Earth, but it's not like they are gonna fight each other by flying around the Solar System Silver Surfer style.

It indicates how fast she can travel and also that she can lose Superman who was continuously focusing on her. With Power Girl distracting Clark, he would be incapable of properly percieving Kara coming at him from the back and landing a solid hit.

Being impressive showing of traveling speed and Kara trying to get away from Clark (at least that is how I understand that scan, so correct me if I'm wrong), this showing is not really useful for actual combat. Allow me to post some scans to prove that Clark can easily register the movements of people and objects that are faster than Kara, for example, Final Crisis #7, the issue where Clark recognized Barry Allen under the mask while reaching superluminal velocity and trying to escape from the Black Racer with Wally West.

To explain the context of this scan, Superman faced Darkseid who is controlling every human being on the planet. Before this instance however, Barry Allen, the Flash who "died" years ago, came back, without anyone being aware of it, besides Wally West, Jay Garrick and Iris. The Flashes tried to make the Black Racer chase them in order for Death to take down Darkseid. However, Racer proved to be fast enough to keep up with the Flashes. How would you feel if Death chases you? You would be terrified of course, and both Barry and Wally were terrified based on their facial expressions, so logically they were moving extremely fast. And Clark wasn't just able to notice them both, but he recognized Barry Allen, who was dead for years. I mean, he could confuse him with Bart, who was the last person who took the name of the Flash during this time (excluding Wally coming back with his kids), but no, he was able to recognize Barry, without seeing either of them coming and moving extremely fast.

That's an awesome feat of perception and indicates he'd react to almost all of Power Girl's or Supergirl's attacks, which is not something I disagree with anyways.

Finds the know that controls crystal tank through the Kryptonian ship, even tho it's signals move at light speed (Superman #653)

Clark (at his weakest) spots the electric current moving at light speed before it reaches him (Swamp Thing Vol. 2 #79)

Clark can easily see photons, which are moving at light speed or above (JLA: Heaven's Ladder)

Isn't he viewing the signals/photons/currents as a continuous stream? That's not really impressive, since it's no different than you and I gazing at a laser which is moving at the speed of light. And you've failed to note that the same stream of electrical currents he saw in Swamp Thing #79, he failed to dodge and it blinded him:

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And to show you Clark's raw speed that he can use during combat, Clark was able to stalemate Jay Garrick in a race, a character who (despite statements saying otherwise) has multiple FTL speed feats DC's 1st: Superman/The Flash #1

Very impressive, but nothing Supergirl or Power Girl cannot match. Kara, while playing around, was capable of stalemating Flash in a race:

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And for the sake of providing consistency, here is Clark moving the Brainiac baby few city blocks away in less than a nanosecond, in other words, moving faster than light Adventures of Superman #603

An awesome feat, though I believe Supergirl easily typing in several quintillion of lines of codes in the span of time it took Cat Grant to blink is a more impressive display of speed:

Also, Clark doesn't always immediately clock at FTL speeds, and he's been tagged by things moving at lightspeed or slower in the past:

If you want proof that Superman uses his speed during actual combat outside of just blitzing people, he did so in a fight against a giant robot, dodging his punch with such speed and he was moving like a blur. So if he has to dodge Supergirl or Power Girl, he will do it. Here is the scan I just mentioned, it's from Superman Vol. 1 #676

A nice demonstration of him using his speed in combat, but neither Supergirl nor Power Girl are giant clunky robot; they're both at least rivalling Superman in speed.

I would say that this is Jeph Loeb's WIS writing because of lack of knowledge on Green Lantern's and their capabilities, but either way, while it is impressive feat, it doesn't necessarily mean Kara has speed comparable to Clark's, even less superior. I don't know how to compare John's speed to Supergirl's, but I doubt that Leob was aware of Lantern Ring's ability to remove the user from danger in span of a nanoseconond.

A fair point of view, but not one I can agree with. If we just by the logic of "the writer doesn't know jack-sh!t" then we'd just call out dozens of inconsistencies that exist throughout comics and we could never accurately guess a character's power-level. This wouldn't be the first time a ring fails to protect itself or it's wearer within a nanosecond. And it's not like Supergirl is incapable of moving a considerable distance within the span of a nanosecond, anyways.

Blitzing a character who is fast doesn't mean you are faster than him. Jay Garrick blitzed both Wally West and Eobard Thawne (neither of them were distracted), and we both know that he is much slower than both of them.

There's a bit of a difference. Tagging someone faster than you in battle doesn't equal blitzing, it's just the ability to tag a character. What Kara did was go to John, remove his and come back where she stood an instant before without Stewart even noticing his ring was missing. This would mean that, to his line of sight, she didn't even move. This is extremely impressive as John has casually reacted to a stopped a bloodlusted Superman:

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Keep in mind that throughout Trinity, John was consistently being weakened due to the course of events that was happening and had continuous lapses in his defenses and couldn't generate constructs like he used to:

And the John Stewart comparison isn't the only one Supergirl has going for her. She speedblitzes the Furries, who were capable of contending with and tagging Barda and Wonder Woman then proceeds to take out Maelstrom before she can kill Superman:

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Here's the feat of Furries vs Diana and Barda that I was talking about, and Wonder Woman even compliments them:

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Supergirl blitzes both Kryptonite Man and Metallo before they can blast her, something Superman has failed to do:

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There's a few more feats I could mention here, but I'll save them for later.

As for the comparison, I'll concede that just because Power Girl overwhelmed Diana with speed doesn't mean she can overwhelm Supes, but I'd like to address this point:

As for Power Girl fighting Diana, I have to say, it is an extremely impressive showing, especially because she could dodge Diana's lasso and then blitzing her. However, when Diana started to fight at best of her abilities, admitting that Power Girl is as strong and as fast as she is, she pretty much stomped her because of the use of her superior fighting skills.

The reason why I'm bringing this up is because Diana's skill allowed her to counter Power Girl's speed, but she wasn't able to do so in her fights with Superman. So again, just because Power Girl was able to overwhelm Diana with her speed once (which is still extremely impressive feat) doesn't mean her speed is comparable to Superman's. Even when Clark was bloodlusted (not relying on his intellect and tactical fighting) and weakened and Diana had her lasso, she could only buy herself time.

Power Girl wasn't stomped by Diana's skill. She landed a few blows then restrained her long enough to talk some sense into her. Hurting then restraining a character is hardly an indication of "stomping them", especially given Power Girl was walking all over her prior to that, while also enraged lacking tactical forsight no less. There's a similar instance where Wonder Woman fights a bloodlusted Superman controlled by Circe in Wonder Woman #175, where she successfully incapacitated him with a few well placed blows and then restraining him with her lasso:

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So Diana successfully fighting back Karen through skill doesn't indicate any significant inferiority to Superman.

Honestly, the only thing I see on those scans is Kara helping Karen out because her powers were "glitching" during the time when both of them barely knew each other, instead of some "super girls team-up/perfect team work" fighting, but I I'm not gonna get into that anyway. If they are capable of working together, that's fine. But it doesn't seem like their strategy is something difficult. It's just overwhelming Superman with numbers, which is a rather simple strategy (no offence of course) and I doubt it will work on someone like Superman.

I never claimed it was "perfect team work", I just indicated how it Power Girl and Supergirl usually do help their teammates. The strategy also isn't to overwhelm purely with number, though the fact that it's a 2v1 does help them. The point is the two can coordinate fairly well to take advantage of any defensive lapses Superman has; Power Girl in particular is capable of analyzing a situation and making a game plan in a moment's notice. Here's an example when she and Stargirl fought the Gods of Izapa:

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Since he is fighting against two opponents at the same time, I might as well show you Clark's astonishing ability to fight against multiple opponents at the same time, Ultraman and Superwoman to be exact. Clark started the fight by blitzing the evil DC Trinity and quickly incapacitating Owlman via Heat Vision knowing that it won't kill him and then relying on that same Heat Vision to heat up Superwoman's bracelets and then using Freeze Breath to restrain her. Even tho he was blitzed by Ultraman, Clark quickly made a comeback and easily overpowered Ultraman with the use of pressure points and superior skill while Superwoman was restrained. He took Ultraman down right after she freed himself, and before she could attack, Clark one shotted her and Ultraman by striking her with, Ultraman Trinity #13

This feat is impressive, but there's several things you're neglecting to mention about the fight. First off, Superman caught them off-guard. Ultraman was so unprepared for his attack that even a sonic boom managed to knock him down and injure him, and usually stuff like that would barely dent a Kryptonian:

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So primarily Clark had the advantage of surprise. Next, he specifically used a tactic that'd make Ultraman reckless and leave him open, then he used the environment(primarily the water) to subdue him:

So Clark exploited their emotional connections to one-another in order to leave them exposed; essentially cheapshotting Superwoman and exploiting a flaw in Ultraman's defenses. Now I'll grant you that this is an excellent showing of tactical capability but it won't work in this scenario because:

1. Karen and Kara know Superman is coming
2. Karen and Kara aren't reckless, bloodlusted megalomaniacs who'd leave themselves exposed if one of them was injured; quite the opposite, they'd work to aid one-another first, then fight Kal second
3. Superman wasn't in-character at the time

When Superman fought Ultraman and Superwoman, he was morals off, but also fighting with a combination of Wonder Woman's and Batman's battle tactics. A key plot point in Trinity is how alternate realities can affect our favourite DC trio and Superman at the time was basically fighting as an amalgam of Bruce, Diana and himself as well as leaving his usual morals at the door:

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So I don't believe the feat is usable in the context of this CaV.

I don't think it is necessary to prove that it is in character for Superman to blitz people, but for the sake of the argument, I will post some scans anyway. For example, Clark blitzed Darkseid in Death of the New Gods #8

Darkseid at the time didn't even see Superman coming and he just began adjusting to his new powers; Power Girl and Supergirl will be facing Superman squarely so unless he somehow loses them(which I doubt given Supergirl alone can outfly him and easily play cat-and-mouse with him) they won't have to worry about this kind of assault. Kara has a similar feat of speedblitzing Donna Troy and Superwoman(to near-Wonder Woman level combatants) and leaving them incapacitated:

Now granted the feats you provided do suggest Superman would try and blitz Supergirl and Power Girl but I don't think that'd be much of a problem for them. Kara(while distracted) has tanked a speedblitz from Cyborg Superman and swiftly recovered:

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And Power Girl has prevented a bloodlusted, mind-controlled Superman's attempt at speedblitzing her while fighting several other people(the feat below also shows off Karen using her enemy's strengths and numbers against them: incapacitating Atom Smasher by throwing Black Adam at him):

Blitzing Kara and Karen and relying on same tactics as he did in his fight against the Crime Syndicate is a good way to take them down without seriously injuring them with his powerful punches, like pressure points for example that he used on Ultraman. It is in character for him to rely on something like that. He even used it on Batman while being possessed by the Kryptonite Man Superman/Batman Vol 1 #23

That's nice, though I doubt it'd figure much into this. Against Ultraman, I already explained why he was out of character and even then Ultraman kept fighting for a bit after a hit to the kidney; Bruce isn't nearly as physically imposing as Karen or Kara, either.

Or he can rely on the same tactic he used on Superwoman, Heat Vision/Freeze Breath combo. He did something similar in his fight with Bizarro which works well for quick takedown. Basically he fired his Heat Vision around Bizarro deep enough for the lava surrounding Earth's core to reach the surface and hit Bizarro, for Superman to incapacitate him with Freeze Breath afterwards Action Comics #845

Once again, a nice tactic, but also nothing Supergirl and Power Girl cannot counter. Heck, Kara has used similar tactics to take out Superman-tier foes like Ultraman:

And on Doomsday:

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She can also use the environment to her advantage, like when she used shards of glass and debris and increased their kinetic energy to knock down Cyborg Superman:

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And of course, he can always use his fists. I know Kara is his cousin and Karen is the cousin of Earth 2 version of himself who he treats as his own cousin as well, but we said that Supergirl, Power Girl and Superman are determined to win, so if he has to, he will beat them up. I doubt they will be able to tank barrage of Superman's punches. They may not be as effective as his most powerful punches, but they can still deal a lot of damage. I can bring up a lot of instances where Superman punched someone multiple times, but here is more recent one from Superman Vol. 4 #3, when Clark fought against Rebirth version of Eradicator because he absorbed Krypto.

Yeah a lot of those punches can be blocked, dodged or either Kara or Karen can just as easily return the favour. In fact, just a single well-placed all-out punch from Supergirl or Power Girl can be devastating; Kara has incapacitated Kryptonite Man, Metallo, Silver Banshee and Parasite with one well-placed strike:

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And Power Girl made Despero scream in pain, right after Despero just no-sold a strike from Clark:

That's a nice feat, however Superman was clearly on the losing end. First, Billy was holding back:

He just says he doesn't want to beat Superman. But in the same sentence he said that he will if he had to. So it is not like he was holding back. Besides, he mentioned that he defeated Superman before, and yes, he did, in JLA #29 when he sucker punched-two shotted Clark. But the only reason why he defeated him was because he relied on his magic, which is a good counter for Superman's powers.

We can easily assume that Billy was planning to rely on that tactic (as he said that he defeated Clark before, and JLA #29 came out 4-5 years before Superman/Batman #4) to win, and honestly, he could. He just didn't want to beat Superman. But not wanting to beat someone doesn't mean you will hold back against him physically, especially because he said he will take him down if he has to, and their fight continued after that scan.

Clark admits that Captain Marvel has the advantage, even if it is magic based he acknowledges he's losing:

He admits that Billy has the advantage because his powers are magic based. It's like me having the advantage over Superman because I'm in Kryptonite armor. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm truly equal to or superior to Superman. Not to mention that that statement makes absolutely no sense. Clark fought Billy countless times and his magical powers did not affect him until he relied on lightning. Superman is vulnerable to magical attacks but mostly energy based magical attacks, not physical attacks. The only instance where Clark was damaged by physical attacks landed by beings powered by magic (that I can remember at the moment) was during his fight with Atlas and that is either because Atlas's powers are different or the instance is just inconsistent.

Either way, Billy's powers being magical in nature was never a problem for Clark unless he relied on his lightning blasts (like in Superman Vol. 2 #216) or charging his fist with lightning and then punching Clark (like in JLA #29). So this is just another WIS on Loeb's part (no offence to Loeb). To prove my point, here is Superman fighting against Black Adam, someone who is physically superior to Captain Marvel, Supergirl and Power Girl and he tanked his punches without any damage in Action Comics #831

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To give you an idea on how strong Black Adam is, I will copy/paste the part of my post from that awful Sinestro vs Captain Marvel thread.

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As for the scan you asked for, in 52 #46 - Mad Science; The Origin of Batman comic, Black Adam hit with the force great enough to shatter the force field that can tank a meteor that wiped dinosaurs out.

Which is pretty impressive because according to Live Science, that meteor (or asteroid if you will) unleashed the force equivalent to 100 trillion tons of TNT.

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Of course, it doesn't mean that Adam was hitting Clark with that much force, but the fact that Clark stated that Adam's punches are more powerful than Billy's, who is one of the most powerful High Tiers out there makes me think that he was hitting him pretty hard, and Clark wasn't hurt at all.

Next, Captain Marvel lands two hits that clearly damage Superman:

Only one of those punches actually damaged him (the second one) and it only made him bleed a bit from his nose. A lot of people made Superman bleed, but even people stronger than him failed to deal a significant damage to him.

And then Batman and Superman performed an "S" castling: they switched opponents, something Superman believed was a good call:

Not sure why that is relevant unless you think that Batman's punch actually hurt Billy.

Batman speculated it may have an influence, but like you noted Kryptonite is not only inconsistent but this asteroid was days away from hitting Earth; the influence it would've had would be fairly limited and minute, especially since in the same series close exposure to Kryptonite left Superman nearly incapacitated.

Kryptonite is inconsistent but it still weakens him to a degree. Yes, it wasn't exactly close to hitting Earth but Clark actually said that he felt something in the air and then asked Power Girl is he the only one who sensed something, even thinking on whether she can be affected by Kryptonite or not.

I can assume that Kryptonite was affecting him just a little bit. But you can disagree if you want. Lets allow the voters to decide.

Next, assuming Captain Marvel is as strong as Power Girl and Supergirl(which I admit is a possibility), punches on that level have knocked Superman on his arse in the past:

I can bring up a lot of instances where Clark did not show any huge signs of discomfort even after getting hit by Superman level punches (so stronger than Kara's, Karen's and Billy's), like punches from Blackest Night Earth 2 Superman/Kal-L from Blackest Night Superman #1

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And both Supergirl and Power Girl certainly have what it takes to strike as hard, or harder than either of them. She's beat up Cyborg Superman, at one point punching him so hard he went through an entire floating city:

As you know, New 52 Cyborg Superman is Zor-El, not Hank Henshaw, and his powers are pathetic compared to Henshaw's. I'm not saying that that feat is not impressive, but isn't not enough to even stagger Superman.

Kara has even knocked around Cyborg Doomsday(a perfect clone of Doomsday, who basically adapted to Hank Henshaw's powers) which is noteworthy as Diana's punches couldn't even make Doomsday flinch:

Of note is that this was one of the genetically modified and enhanced Doomsday clones made to adapt and defeat the likes of Superboy, Steel and Hank Henshaw:

Kara damaged only Cybernetic parts of Doomsday's body, which are not that durable. Before Doomsday reformed as a half Cyborg, Henshaw fought against Doomsday and he wasn't able to hurt him at all until he relied on his absolute best punches (or rather punch/blitz). In other words, Henshaw, a character stronger than Superman had a lot of trouble damaging Doomsday but Kara, a character weaker than Superman was able to damage him Doomsday. It's pretty obvious that Cybernetic parts were less durable than his skin. Not to mention that Clark was able to casually rip Henshaw's Central Node out of his body in Action Comics #901 which is so inconsistent compared to Henshaw's other showing to the point that we can say that he was way weaker in Reign of Doomsday than he originally was, and same goes for Cyborg Doomsday, since he just absorbed Hank's powers.

Also, that Doomsday who did not even feel Diana's blows was Hunter Prey/Brainiac Doomsday, the most powerful incarnation of Doomsday ever. Clone who copies powers has zero feats to prove he is coming close to Hunter Prey level. Even if you want to argue that clone was based on the most recent version of Doomsday, he was not on Hunter Prey level. He wasn't as nearly as powerful during 2000s and was quickly defeated by New Earth and Earth 2 Superman during Infinite Crisis #7

That clone was probably more powerful than this Doomsday but he is certainly not on Hunter Prey level. Not that it matters since I'm pretty sure that I made it clear that Cybernetic parts are not as durable as Doomsday's skin.

And Power Girl has similarly knocked around and landed solid hits on Magog, who impressed Supermanwith his strength, in a sparring match that she won:

And while it did start as a sparring match, it was later noted that the two more-or-less stopped holding back:

It doesn't seem like she won. She just punched him hard enough to send him fly few feet away and the fight just stopped with Magog being 100% fine. I guess she won in sparring match but it's not coming close to an actual fight to the death or KO. It's impressive showing, but not enough to prove that Karen can put Superman down, which is what is necessary to beat him.

Karen has also notably managed to hurt Superman who was being mind-controlled during the JSA's Stealing Thunder storyline:

It's obvious that both Kara and Karen are capable of contending with and damaging beings in Superman's strength class.

Again, hurting Superman is one thing. Putting him down is another. Also isn't that from that story where Ultra Humanite possessed Johnny Thunder and used Thunderbolt's power to warp reality? And at the end Johnny and Thunderbolt fused together? I read that story and IIRC, Superman was just staggered, he wasn't hurt. He was 100% fine and was firing Heat Vision at Karen afterwards, without his face being dirty or damaged or anything.

It's not uncommon for less powerful characters to strangle or hold back a stronger character, especially not in DC. It actually happens a lot of the time, even in Kara's case. It doesn't suggest she's an equal/superior to J'onn, nor should she logically be, but it shows she has the strength to damage someone on Superman's strength level.

Strength does not equal striking power tho. If Kara can hold a Superman level being who is holding back, it doesn't mean that her striking power is high enough to put them down.

Which is nice and all, but just because Superman doesn't plan on throwing his strongest punches doesn't mean his durability is suddenly significantly decreased from what it usually is.

True but the only thing Kara was able to do to Clark was making him bleed once, and I already showed you multiple scans of Clark tanking blows from people stronger than Kara and Karen. Even if you want to argue that they can hurt him, I still don't see the reason why they can actually put him down.

Clark partially said that to calm Supergirl down and Kara remained unconvinced, claiming it's only an "interesting theory"; regardless, Superman always fights with this mentality, whereas Kara is always the one to let loose. This should carry over to our CaV since they're still in-character.

Besides the fact that Clark wasn't "determined to win" that fight, while in this CaV, he is. I'm pretty sure we agreed on that.

Great feats, which indicate Superman's superiority to Diana, however both Supergirl and Power Girl should also be more physically imposing than Diana(hurting characters that shrugged off WW's blows for one and Power Girl actually overpowering her in pure strength).

Like Doomsday? I already debunked that part. I'm pretty sure that Diana and Karen are equally strong.

No need to apologize, and this is a great feat but it's one Superman struggled to perform and this isn't the first time. He's struggled to perform a similar feat with the Green Lantern and Wonder Woman, outright noting he couldn't do it again:

And an interesting tid-bit is that Superman required the aid of Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman and ironically Power Girl to movea moon; albeit the moon itself was larger than our planet's moon, but the point is Karen made a serious contribution:

He struggles sometimes yes, but it's not like the feat is invalid. Maybe he was pushed to his limited by doing that alone. It doesn't seem like a High End feat to me, especially because he was able to preform planetary level strength feats with help of characters physically weaker than him, which is actually above Moon level strength feat. I believe you already posted it yourself.

And speaking of moon-level feats, Kara managed to destroy a moon:

You are comparing strength feats to striking power feats, which are two totally different things. As for the feat itself, while it's cool, not only we don't know how big that Moon was but Kara destroyed it by flying through it at light speed which increases your striking power by a large margin. I doubt she will be able to preform that kind of feat without gaining momentum, which she won't be able to do because she will be to occupied fighting Clark.

That's nice, but I feel like that's much more of a feat for Hal than Superman as he was likely doing most of the work. Superman has struggled to move a planet with the aid of J'onn and Diana, and they barely moved it:

He may not be capable of preforming planetary strength feats all by himself like his New 52 counterpart, but he is not lacking strength. Not to mention that both Hal Jordan and Clark preformed that feat during earlier years of their carrier, when Hal was a rookie... and Clark had two power upgrades after the events of their fight with Starbreaker.

So Superman on his own can't successfully pull a planet. In fact, a satelite heading towards Earth was only capable of unleashing multi-continental damage and Superman was unable to properly stop it without Supergirl's aid:

Actually that satellite was treating the entire planet according to the Government scientists, as seen in Action Comics #901. The only reason why Doomslayer said that it won't destroy all of it is because heroes were slowing it down.

And it didn't take only Supergirl and Superman to stop it. Steel and Superboy helped as well. It is also worth mentioning that when Doomslayer reversed the engines of the satellite to be capable of destroying the continent at best, Clark was able to hold it by himself for few seconds in Action Comics #902, slowing it down, preventing it from destroying the continent and Metropolis.

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And while this is true, I'd imagine that the amp Superman recieved would be enough to compensate for at least one of those power-growths, especially since he was apparently superior to even Martian Manhunter in such a state.

Him being stronger than MMH at that time doesn't matter because they are still close strength wise despite Superman's upgrade. He was introduced as being more powerful just like Superman, and same goes for other powerhouses, like Diana for example. Even tho they weren't amped like Clark was. So based on feats, MMH would stomp DOS Superman even in physical fight.

Actually, Kara and Karen do more than just "hold their own" against powerhouses if they hold back; They practically walk all over high tiers like Captain Atom and Clark if they hold back, whereas even if they go all-out Power Girl and Supergirl can give them a good fight in a 1v1.

Well they can overpower holding back powerhouses who do not want to fight them.

The suits just serve to hide their identities, and they weren't amped. However, Ultraman was:

Alright, thanks for info.

Wasn't really once, and she's noted to have outflown him in the past.

It indicates how fast she can travel and also that she can lose Superman who was continuously focusing on her. With Power Girl distracting Clark, he would be incapable of properly percieving Kara coming at him from the back and landing a solid hit.

I decided to skip this part since you agreed that Superman can react to most, if not all of their attacks...

That's an awesome feat of perception and indicates he'd react to almost all of Power Girl's or Supergirl's attacks, which is not something I disagree with anyways.

...

Isn't he viewing the signals/photons/currents as a continuous stream? That's not really impressive, since it's no different than you and I gazing at a laser which is moving at the speed of light. And you've failed to note that the same stream of electrical currents he saw in Swamp Thing #79, he failed to dodge and it blinded him:

It was pretty clear that he can preform such a feat because of his fast brain. Otherwise he won't be able to register their moements properly. As for electrical current hitting him, the only reason why I did not mention it is because that was Pre-DOS Superman who is much much slower than light. But, that is not stopping him from noticing the light before hitting him. I mean, we humans can easily see the plane flying in the sky, but our raw speed is nothing compared to the speed of the flying plane.

Very impressive, but nothing Supergirl or Power Girl cannot match. Kara, while playing around, was capable of stalemating Flash in a race:

That feat is not necessarily on the same level as the one I posted because we don't know how fast Wally was moving in that instance. However, on the scan I posted, Jay was actually reaching his limit, pushing harder and harder to catch Wally and he still failed to lose Clark and had to rely on speed steal to prevent Clark from touching Wally.

An awesome feat, though I believe Supergirl easily typing in several quintillion of lines of codes in the span of time it took Cat Grant to blink is a more impressive display of speed:

Ok, I have one huge problem with this feat. Lets say that an average human can type a line of code in a single second (even tho it takes more time than that but whatever). If someone can type like 1.000 of those codes in a single second, he was actually able to do type one code per millisecond, so his speed can be put on that range. If someone types billion of those per second/one per nanosecond, that character is a light speedster (above or below depending on how the body was moving during typing). But here, we actually have quintillion of those codes being typed in those computers before Cat blinked. According to the Wikipedia, Quora and Sciencing, it takes an average person 100-150/300 milliseconds to blink, which is a portion of a second.

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Based on this, Kara had less than 10% of a second to type several quintillion lines of codes. That puts her above even attosecond range of speed. Not even Hunter Zolomon operates on that level. If my calculations make sense and if they are correct, Kara's speed dwarfs that of the Flashes, which is far from true. What I'm trying to say is, this feat is ridiculous outlier and is far from consistent showing.

Also, Clark doesn't always immediately clock at FTL speeds, and he's been tagged by things moving at lightspeed or slower in the past:

That is because DC always tries to make people believe that Barry Allen, Wally West and other characters on their level and above can go FTL while people slower than them can't, which is far from true. I think I remember 3 other instances where people claimed that Superman is slower than light, but statements are not contradicting actual feats. It's the other way around. Here is Superman outrunning Omega Beams, which are faster than light according to statements and feats Superman Man of Steel #116

No, Superman won't just blitz everyone at FTL speed, especially not his cousin and alternate version of her, but he can still achieve those levels of speed if it turns out to be necessary.

A nice demonstration of him using his speed in combat, but neither Supergirl nor Power Girl are giant clunky robot; they're both at least rivalling Superman in speed.

Of course. The only reason why I posted that scan was because I wanted to prove that Clark will actually use his speed to dodge attacks.

A fair point of view, but not one I can agree with. If we just by the logic of "the writer doesn't know jack-sh!t" then we'd just call out dozens of inconsistencies that exist throughout comics and we could never accurately guess a character's power-level. This wouldn't be the first time a ring fails to protect itself or it's wearer within a nanosecond. And it's not like Supergirl is incapable of moving a considerable distance within the span of a nanosecond, anyways.

There's a bit of a difference. Tagging someone faster than you in battle doesn't equal blitzing, it's just the ability to tag a character. What Kara did was go to John, remove his and come back where she stood an instant before without Stewart even noticing his ring was missing. This would mean that, to his line of sight, she didn't even move. This is extremely impressive as John has casually reacted to a stopped a bloodlusted Superman:

Keep in mind that throughout Trinity, John was consistently being weakened due to the course of events that was happening and had continuous lapses in his defenses and couldn't generate constructs like he used to:

And the John Stewart comparison isn't the only one Supergirl has going for her. She speedblitzes the Furries, who were capable of contending with and tagging Barda and Wonder Woman then proceeds to take out Maelstrom before she can kill Superman:

Here's the feat of Furries vs Diana and Barda that I was talking about, and Wonder Woman even compliments them:

But if this was just another one of those instances where the ring fails, than the feat is not as impressive as it seems. And again, that comparison on John being able to react to Superman and not Supergirl doesn't work because the character's ability to react to certain attacks and blitzes depends from writer to writer or the situation. To correct you on that other part, Jay did not just tag Wally. He strait up blitzed him multiple times in Green Lantern-Flash: Faster Friends #2

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Yes, Wally reacted to his attack eventually. I'm just trying to say that comparing character's showing against certain characters to his other showing with other characters doesn't make your argument valid. At least in my most humble opinion. Those feats with the Furries is impressive tho I'll give them that.

Supergirl blitzes both Kryptonite Man and Metallo before they can blast her, something Superman has failed to do:

More like didn't really want to do. Or wasn't actually trying to. Clark is more than capable of blitzing Metallo. He blitzed faster characters in the past, like Black Lantern Earth 2 Superman (Kal-L) in Blackest Night: Superman #3

Or Solar Superman (Dennis Swan) after not even feeling his punch despite the fact that he was in a weakened state (if you read Lois and Clark, you know that Pre-Flashpoint Clark Kent was way weaker in the New 52 Universe) Action Comics Vol. 2 #52

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And he did not just blitz him. He was also beating him up with super fast punches while bullrushing him.

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And here is Clark blitzing Eradicator as well in Superman Vol. 4 #3

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And Anti-Monitor in Superman: Lois and Clark #1. This may be retconned tho, but it still shows that it is in character for Superman to blitz. Also no, this is not Pre-Crisis Superman.

He also blitzed Lex Luthor when he had those stupid God-Like powers in Action Comics #900

That's all I've got for now.

Before I get into this part of the debate, I just want to point out that I concede that Diana overwhelming Karen with skill does not prove she is inferior to Clark. No reason to focus on that Wonder Woman debate any longer so lets just move on with the actual debate.

I never claimed it was "perfect team work", I just indicated how it Power Girl and Supergirl usually do help their teammates. The strategy also isn't to overwhelm purely with number, though the fact that it's a 2v1 does help them. The point is the two can coordinate fairly well to take advantage of any defensive lapses Superman has; Power Girl in particular is capable of analyzing a situation and making a game plan in a moment's notice. Here's an example when she and Stargirl fought the Gods of Izapa:

I guess I misunderstood you. Yeah that makes sense. As for the feat itself, it is pretty good. However, I am pretty sure that Superman's showing is more impressive. For the sake of consistency, I will post yet another feat of Superman analyzing his opponent and beating them with the use of his intellect and tactical/smart fighting.

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Superman's fight with Hank Henshaw in Superman: Man of Steel #52. Henshaw was connected to the Tribunal World, draining energy from the planet itself. Clark used his Heat Vision to break his connection to the planet and attacked him in mid-air, preventing him from focusing on absorbing the energy of the planet with barrage of super fast punches. Also because Henshaw's Cybernetic parts are invulnerable to Superman's punches, Clark was punching biological/flesh part of Henshaw's face which is as durable as Clark's, effectively KOing him with full force of his blows.

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I honestly think that this is just a plot device for Superman to beat a character superior to him, and KOing Henshaw that was as well as preventing him from absorbing planet's energy just by punching him makes no sense to me. However, this feat has nothing to do with Clark beating Henshaw as much as how smart and tactical he is, and this showing proves it, as weird as it is.

This feat is impressive, but there's several things you're neglecting to mention about the fight. First off, Superman caught them off-guard. Ultraman was so unprepared for his attack that even a sonic boom managed to knock him down and injure him, and usually stuff like that would barely dent a Kryptonian:

Isn't that the point? Taking the advantage of them not expecting him? That part was mentioned only because of the actual feat. It wasn't my intention to make people believe that Clark will catch Kara and Karen off guard.

So primarily Clark had the advantage of surprise. Next, he specifically used a tactic that'd make Ultraman reckless and leave him open, then he used the environment(primarily the water) to subdue him:

So Clark exploited their emotional connections to one-another in order to leave them exposed; essentially cheapshotting Superwoman and exploiting a flaw in Ultraman's defenses.

Ultraman was as pissed off in that instance, but he was actually the one who blitzed Clark, not the other way around.

He was focused on Clark only. Clark just stopped his bullrush by kicking him in the neck (which is a fatal blow) and then blitzed him in the water, taking him down with pressure points. So I don't see how or why was he distracted or left opened for an attack. It's more like Clark is just skilled enough to take down a character physically equal to him.

As for the other thing you said, sure, I concede that Clark was morals off and relied on Batman/Wonder Woman tactics. However, on the panel where he defeated Ultraman, it was all his own superior fighting skill overpowering Ultraman. Clark even said that he learned how to fight instead of just being taught. And before you bring up that statement about Batman's and Wonder Woman's instincts, he was just thinking about on whether or not he will take him down painfully or quickly. Using pressure points was something he can do by himself.

Also I don't see how the environment makes this feat less valid. He just decided to use a kidney-punch to fill Ultraman's lungs with water. He may not be able to do something like that all the time, but he used pressure points in different scenarios. I'll get more into that later.

So I don't believe the feat is usable in the context of this CaV.

Maybe not, but the fight can end up in similar ways. Clark can still blitz Kara and Karen, use Heat Vision/Freeze Breath and use pressure points. All those things he can use without being Morals Off and without having Batman's and Wonder Woman's instincts. Again, I'll get more into that later.

Darkseid at the time didn't even see Superman coming and he just began adjusting to his new powers; Power Girl and Supergirl will be facing Superman squarely so unless he somehow loses them(which I doubt given Supergirl alone can outfly him and easily play cat-and-mouse with him) they won't have to worry about this kind of assault. Kara has a similar feat of speedblitzing Donna Troy and Superwoman(to near-Wonder Woman level combatants) and leaving them incapacitated:

It doesn't matter if Darkseid didn't see him coming. I just posted that scan to prove that it is in character for Clark to blitz, not because Darkseid was blitzed. Playing "cat-and-mouse" with Superman is a feat Kara preformed once, and Clark's speed feats are way more impressive than her's to make that showing valid. I read a few comics with Donna and IIRC, she struggled with Kalibak even while having the power of a Darkstar, so he is not that strong based on what I have seen. And even if Superwoman is as fast as Diana is, I already showed you Clark blitzing Diana multiple times with ease.

Now granted the feats you provided do suggest Superman would try and blitz Supergirl and Power Girl but I don't think that'd be much of a problem for them. Kara(while distracted) has tanked a speedblitz from Cyborg Superman and swiftly recovered:

I am pretty sure that New 52 Cyborg Superman is weaker than Kara, so he is much much weaker than Clark. And if anything, this just proves that Clark is capable of blitzing Kara, who is faster than Karen based on feats I have seen.

And Power Girl has prevented a bloodlusted, mind-controlled Superman's attempt at speedblitzing her while fighting several other people(the feat below also shows off Karen using her enemy's strengths and numbers against them: incapacitating Atom Smasher by throwing Black Adam at him):

I don't see Clark trying to blitz her. He's just firing Heat Vision at her.

That's nice, though I doubt it'd figure much into this. Against Ultraman, I already explained why he was out of character and even then Ultraman kept fighting for a bit after a hit to the kidney; Bruce isn't nearly as physically imposing as Karen or Kara, either.

"Bruce" stands for Batman? I already said that Clark can use pressure points by himself. Even if that showing is out of character, he can still rely on similar tactics. Again, I will get into that at the end of my post.

Once again, a nice tactic, but also nothing Supergirl and Power Girl cannot counter. Heck, Kara has used similar tactics to take out Superman-tier foes like Ultraman:

And on Doomsday:

Cool. There is one difference tho. Clark is older, more experienced, more skilled with his powers and is also smarter and more tactical fighter. Not to mention that he was trained by Mongul to use his powers the best way possible, in quick and effective ways. It is more likely for him to use something like that than Kara, especially because he used it more often based on what I have seen. Clark used freeze breath/heat vision-freeze breath combo on Doomsday, Superwoman, Wonder Woman, Bizarro, Brainiac, Imperiex Probes, Cannibal Planet, some random robots... I can post scans if you want, but right now, I would rather just move on.

She can also use the environment to her advantage, like when she used shards of glass and debris and increased their kinetic energy to knock down Cyborg Superman:

Hmmm... okay I guess.

Yeah a lot of those punches can be blocked, dodged or either Kara or Karen can just as easily return the favour. In fact, just a single well-placed all-out punch from Supergirl or Power Girl can be devastating; Kara has incapacitated Kryptonite Man, Metallo, Silver Banshee and Parasite with one well-placed strike:

None of those characters are as durable as Superman. Not even close to be honest. As for them dodging punches, I'm still skeptical about it since I don't think their speed is comparable to Superman's.

And Power Girl made Despero scream in pain, right after Despero just no-sold a strike from Clark:

Despero was punched by Superman, Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman and Hourman (Rick) at the same time and he wasn't hurt at all. Makes no sense for Karen to hurt him, if she even hurt him because making a character feel pain doesn't necessarily mean he/she hurt him. Either way, I consider this to be a flawed comparison my friend.

I should have focused on this part before, but I guess I'll get into it now. Based on what I have seen so far, Supergirl and Power Girl can just stagger Superman with their punches or make him bleed. And every time (at least based on what I have seen) when they were fighting against powerhouses, those characters were holding back against them. So Supergirl and Power Girl may be strong enough to hold their own against Superman and give him a decent, if not good fight, it doesn't mean that they are capable of putting him down. Superman is durable as hell. I already showed you Superman tanking blows from the likes of Wonder Woman, Earth 2 Superman, Captain Marvel and Black Adam without being hurt, and those characters are as strong if not stronger than Kara and Karen. But for the sake of consistency, I will post more.

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He tanked a beating from Doomslayer, who is strong enough to kill Eradicator with ease, like he is a weakling. He is also stronger than Superman Action Comics #904

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He also tanked Darkseid's blows and recovered pretty quickly Superman: Man of Steel #116

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Not to mention that Clark a punch from pissed off Kingdom Come Superman without much damage (he was still hurt tho). Kingdom Come Superman is well above Pre-Flashpoint Superman Justice Society of America: Kingdom Come Special - Superman #1

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I have more feats, but at this point I'm sure that Superman won't be put down by his cousins. Lets not forget Clark's fight against Hunter Prey Doomsday during Doomsday Wars. He tanked several blows from him and he still wasn't put down. The fight is too long to post scans tho. Anyway, Kara and Karen will land few decent punches for sure, but outside of one high end Moon busting showing, Kara and Karen are not putting him down.

I don't think I posted any impressive striking power feats for Superman. I was hoping to see some durability feats for Supergirl and Power Girl first, but I guess I will have to wait for you to add something on your next post. Until then, I will add few striking power feats for Superman.

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Superman one shotted Ultraman and Superwoman. The reason why I posted this scan first was because you posted scans of Kara and Karen beating him in your first post. Impressive, but this showing proves that Ultraman may have Superman's strength, but he doesn't have his durability Trinity #13

Even at his weakest, Clark's punches were powerful enough to shatter windows of buildings in Gotham while he was in Metropolis, during his first fight with Doomsday Superman: Day of Doom #2

Knocks out Doomsday Rex, who is physically superior to the Martian Manhunter Superman Vol. 2 #175

Puts Captain Marvel/Shazam into submission Superman/Batman #4

He also two-shotted Mongul II (I said "two-shotted" because the final attack was Heat Vision, which has no effect on Mongul) in Infinite Crisis #1. I know that Mongul wasn't KO'd but he was down, so it is still an impressive feat, especially because Mongul is powerful enough to hold his own against Hal Jordan and overpower Wonder Woman.

I will wait to see some durability feats for Supergirl and Power Girl before I post Superman's higher end striking power feats.

Excluding that one outlier, Clark is way faster than Kara and Karen. Feats you posted show them keeping up with speedsters without us knowing how fast they were moving on those instances, comparing Kara's/Karen's good showing against characters to Clark's not so impressive showing with those same characters, moving too fast for Clark once and blitzing fast characters. So far, that last part with blitzing characters is the most impressive one I have seen, and it's not enough to convince me that they can easily keep up with Clark. I still think he is capable of overwhelming them with his speed. Remember those powerful punches Superman can dish out? Well, he also can punch people a lot of times per second. I already showed him doing something like that against Solar Superman, Cyborg Superman, Hunter Prey Doomsday and Eradicator. He also overwhelmed Imperiex Probe with his speed. While I don't have those scans at the moment, I will post the scan of Clark using his speed against Doomsday Rex in Superman Vol. 2 #175

Even when his powers were decreased to a significant margin, Clark was still able to overwhelm Shockwave with his speed in Superman: Lois and Clark #2. He did not use his fists here but you get the idea.

Of course, based on those feats alone, it doesn't mean that Clark will be able to do something like that on Supergirl and Power Girl, but fact that Clark's speed feats are way more impressive than those preformed by his cousins (excluding outliers) means that Clark is more than capable of doing something like this to his cousins. That being said, I think I will post another impressive feat of Superman's speed. Superman was able to dodge and/or outran beta rays fired from vorx weapons multiple times.

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Scan 1: Adventures of Superman #591

Scan 2: Superman: Man of Steel #113

Scan 3-4: Action Comics #778

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Why is this so impressive you might ask? Because in Adventures of Superman #591, it was confirmed that beta rays travel at near-light speed.

I would like to post more speed feats, but it's late right now and my internet connection sucks right now, so I'll just move on.

Like I said before, Clark was trained by Mongul II to use is powers in effective and creative ways. He also has enough experience and skill to beat and even stomp people who are as strong as he is. He always analyzes his opponents in order to use their weaknesses to his advantage, like when he blitzed Konvict (a character strong enough to almost one shot Superman as well as fight team of heroes alone, and fast enough to evade Diana's lasso) and bullrushed him in the sky, taking advantage of his lack of ability to fly Trinity #4

There is also an instance where Clark faced Starbreaker's robot in Justice League of America Vol. 1 #96. Those robots are stronger than Superman, they are durable enough to make Superman hurt his hand by punching them and they are powerful enough to beat Hawkman, Hal Jordan and Barry Allen. So Clark used his X-Ray Vision to see what he is actually fighting against. At that moment, the robots were hitting him with blasts of Red Solar Energy. And Clark found out that his X-Ray Vision interferes with their transmission, so he used his super speed to fly around them and interfere with their transmission even further, confusing them and making the one of them stagger another one, giving JLA enough time to take them down.

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Yes I know that this is Pre-Crisis scan but during Justice League of America Vol. 2 #29 (which is a Post-Crisis comic), Starbreaker had a conversation with Shadow-Thief about his first fight with JLA, and in flashback sequences, their entire fight was identical to the one that happened Pre-Crisis, meaning that events that happened in Justice League of America Vol. 1 #96-98 are still canon to Post-Crisis Universe. Hell, Clark using his speed against robots was actually shown in the comic.

Clark is a very good tactician and he can use that brain of his to find a way how to deal with Kryptonian duo if they prove to be too much for Clark (which I doubt will happen). He can blitz one of them with his superior speed and send them to space, making the other one chase him, fighting separately and split them up which will make their "team-work" almost non existing. He blitzed Blanque into space with ease, even when his powers were nothing compared to what they were before Superman Lois and Clark #3

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Aside from tactical fighting, Clark is also a skilled hand-to-hand fighter. I don't know anything about Kara's and Karen's fighting skills, but Superman sure as hell is a very skilled one, which he proved a lot of times. For example, when he fought against Parasite taking the appearance of Lois Lane while having Superman's powers, Clark proved to be a very skilled fighter, dodging and blocking Parasite's blows with ease and even overpowering him thanks to his superior fighting skills Superman Vol. 2 #157

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I think I also brought up pressure points few times on this post, which can definitely work on Kryptonians. Clark did not use those on Ultraman and Kryptonite Man possessed Batman only. He also used them on Maxima, who is skilled and strong warrior Superman Vol. 2 #159

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And I already brought up Clark using Freeze Breath and Heat Vision which can be useful as well. It was useful enough to distract Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #219. So if Kara/Karen team-up proves to be too much for Superman to fight physically, he can always distract one of them.

I will post more scans later. However before I move on, I want to ask, can Kara and Karen tank Clark's Heat Vision without any damage? Originally I thought they can but since I remembered that instance where he hurt Power Girl in JSA #35, I want to ask, is that consistent to their temperature resistance feats, if they even have any? Because Superman's Heat Vision can reach the temperature of a nuclear explosion and was even able to do this to the ocean:

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Scans are from JLA: Our Worlds at War and Superman Vol. 2 #217

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