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#1 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate is currently ongoing. Here are the posts made thus far:

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The debate follows all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron. The rules include, but are not limited to, specific parts of the following: http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes2.html#Licensing. In addition:

Feats take precedent over directly contradicted statements. For example, a feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.

Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.

The opinion of authors have no validity and cannot be used unless they are explicitly accepted into the continuity.

All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.

There will be five posts maximum per side. The first post per side, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 25,000 original characters, the second 30,000, the third 35,000, the fourth 40,000, and the finisher 5,000. The first two posts per side must be released by 19 August 2018. The final two posts per side must be released by 1 June 2019.

The combatants will fight in-character, with their morals on, and start diagonal from each other at 424 meters away in an indestructible 300 meters by 300 meter arena in the grass plains of Lothal.

Revan and Darth Vader's powers and abilities are as of The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan and Episode VI - Return of the Jedi respectively.

The debate will be decided by a panel of three judges, tentatively @emperordmb, @xsupremeskillzx, and @jkbart.

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#2 Posted by GuildSeal (270 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#3 Edited by the_wspanialy (4036 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by JKBart (631 posts) - - Show Bio

POWER

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#5 Edited by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: Take pride in your drawing on my banner.

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#8 Edited by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio
"We would be honored, if you would join us."

There’s a vast wealth of evidence favoring Darth Vader in this matchup from feats of overwhelming strength to prestigious accolades and luxuriant scaling. To kick things off with a bang, I’ll present by far the singular most efficient yet profound demonstration of Vader’s power from this short excerpt of the Return of the Jedi novelization:

At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor from behind, pinning Palpatine's upper arms to his torso. Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.

Palpatine struggled in the grip of Vader's unfeeling embrace, his hands still shooting bolts of malign energy out in all directions. In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader. The Dark Lord fell again, electric currents crackling down his helmet, over his cape, into his heart.

Vader stumbled with his load to the middle of the bridge over the black chasm leading to the power core. He held the wailing despot high over his head, and with a final spasm of strength, hurled him into the abyss.

I love these three passages because in their simplicity is infused so many layers of greatness regarding Darth Vader. It functions as a dual feat of both durability as well as willpower in itself, and on top of that it’s a tacit endorsement of Vader’s canonical superiority to Revan. You see, I wasn’t very impressed with the latter’s performance against the Shit Emperor in his respective novel, where he got roasted on the floor in mere seconds:

The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

Almost too weak to move, Revan managed to raise his head just in time to see the Emperor turn on the brave little astromech. A tremor rippled through the air as the Emperor unleashed the full power of the Force against the defenseless droid.

T3 never stood a chance. The little droid exploded into a million pieces, internal circuits and external casing obliterated in a single instant.

“No!” Revan screamed from the ground as bits of his friend rained down on him in the form of unrecognizable shrapnel.

He tried to rise, but his injured body refused to respond. Instinctively, he called on the Force to give him strength and heal his wounds.

The Emperor was approaching him with calm, purposeful steps. Once he reached Revan’s side he calmly bent down and picked up the Jedi’s fallen weapon, igniting the blade.

The healing properties of the Force were powerful, but Revan’s wounds were severe and he needed more time to restore his strength. Helpless, he could only stare up at the Emperor as he raised the lightsaber to deliver the killing blow.

* * *

Even as she called to Scourge to help, Meetra was already sprinting toward the far end of the throne room. Scourge hesitated before joining her, taking a moment to survey the situation, memories of his vision of their failure still fresh in his mind.

What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark purple lightning.

Revan’s astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi’s lightsaber up off the floor.

It all happened in the space of only a few seconds. Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.

I’ve highlighted the relevant parts. Unpacking the first layer of Vader’s eminence, we can make a comparison of durability:

  • “In the space of only a few seconds,” Revan begins “spasming uncontrollably” and “collapse[s] to the ground” under the Shit Emperor’s assault. In contrast, Vader literally walks through the Galactic Emperor’s barrage for close to ten seconds never breaking stride, as seen from the movie (link).

  • Revan “gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb” as well as “draw in and contain” the Shit Emperor’s lightning yet the result was the same. Vader “focused solely and sightlessly on his will” “to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor” while “ignoring” everything else, meaning that he was focusing all his energy into killing the Emperor rather than defending from his attack with a proper Force defense unlike Revan, which is made all the more clear by their brachial positions: Revan’s being an overt sign of tutaminsis while Vader’s being bereft of any defensive gestures, indicating the only Force shield he did have was likely an instinctive, subconscious one, much weaker than an active barrier.

  • Revan’s skin “began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting” as soon as the lightning got through his defenses. Vader, while mortally wounded as per many sources, nonetheless didn’t look all that different from any of his other appearances without his helmet, indicating his wounds were less severe than Revan’s despite the Emperor’s lightning tearing all over his body “into his heart” and “penetrated his life-support and electrified Anakin’s organic remains” according to The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader meaning that his lesser, subconscious Force barrier is stronger than Revan at his most stalwart.

  • The Shit Emperor continued to “pour more and more power” into his lightning even after Revan’s skin “began to boil and blister,” insinuating that the Shit Emperor wasn’t even at full strength when Revan fell under his might, as one obviously cannot add to something that is already at its zenith; the only way to do that would be under the conditions that the Sith Emperor wasn’t giving it his all in the initial clash. Vader on the other hand experienced “the full force of his Dark Master’s evil lightning” (link) whereas there is no indication whatsoever that the Shit Emperor went all-out on Revan.

In short, Vader comes ineffably better off in this comparison. Palpatine has repeatedly been stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord and dark side master in galactic history, and a catalogue of feats presents him as infinitely more powerful than even peak Failkorion (links 1, and 2), someone with three hundred years of growth over the iteration of the Shit Emperor whose less-than-full strength Revan succumbed to in seconds. One thing of note I highlighted earlier is how even Vader’s subconscious barrier is more robust than Revan’s staunchest Force bulwark. In your own blog on the matter (link), you and The Essential Reader’s Companion describe Revan’s Force deflection feat against Darth Nyriss as a product of his “raw power in the Force” and conclude that the feat is representative of his strength in all areas of Force use, and I’d agree. This would logically apply to his confrontation with the Shit Emperor as well, as the text in The Old Republic: Revan compares the act to his handling of Nyriss’ lightning. Following this line of thought to its conclusion, it would seem that Revan cannot touch Darth Vader with the Force in any capacity whatsoever.

Now we’re getting into the second gem in the Return of the Jedi novelization: Darth Vader’s willpower. The text states that Vader “focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.” Thus, it is abundantly clear that Vader’s strength of will was not only a primary factor in the Emperor’s death, but rather the only factor, at least as far as Vader’s conscious actions go. Obviously, succeeding in killing the most godlike Force entity to have ever graced the galaxy with his presence just by willing it so is a colossal feat, only surpassed by a few in the willpower department. After all, it’s not really a surprise considering what Vader could do when he was just Anakin Skywalker (links 1 and 2): the excerpts from the Revenge of the Sith novelization in the links describe how Anakin lands the wreckage of the Invisible Hand, a physical impossibility per the narration. Anakin, however, subverts this by seizing control of the Force, and bends it to his will. Since the Force is what governs the fates and destinies of all being and the laws under which the universe operates, by outwilling the Force, Anakin warps reality itself in his image to make the impossible possible. The same thing happens in his fight with Count Dooku where in the “dream” he’d been living, “there were no rules” because Anakin isn’t bound by the restrictions the Force places on everything since “between his will and the will of the Force, there is no contest” so he can do “whatever he want[s]” with the decisions in his head being tantamount to actual alterations in the fabric of reality: “He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took” after which “his blade moves simultaneously with his will” and Dooku loses his hand because “Decision is reality” as far as Anakin Skywalker goes. He willed that he should win the fight, so it happened. And no, this isn’t hyperbole; I’ve seen people arbitrarily latch on “hyperbole” to almost everything in this book for the simple reason that “Matthew Stover.” Not only is that not a valid reason, but by choosing to label something as hyperbole purely on personal whim would mean anyone could dismiss anything whenever they felt like it and debating wouldn’t function. A statement is only hyperbole if you can prove its implausibility when interpreted literally. If something works literally without issue, then it is to be taken at face value. As for Anakin outwilling the Force itself, we have seen that happen previously in the mythos with Plagueis and Sidious when they pitted their willpower against that of the Force and took home a W. Plagueis in particular, since in mastering midi-chlorian manipulation he had dominated and violated the will of the Force completely and utterly, and was capable of bending reality as he saw fit without rules (link). Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader fits into the exact same mold: his willpower is so great the Force is swept aside in his wake, and reality itself becomes subservient to him.

As far as the usefulness of willpower in combat goes, Darth Plagueis deemed that “there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will” and based on that he concluded that “If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface”; Darth Wyyrlok III believed that “it is willpower that gives the Sith their strength” and that “By sheer force of will, a Sith can achieve almost anything”; and Darth Sidious finally added that “Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will” and that “anger, combined with will, is the key to power,” deeming the combination of the two be “the greatest power” (link). Specifically in the case of Vader, he credited the latter’s feat of killing him to Vader’s personal power, claiming that he was “strong enough” to do what he did (link). Given that the act was achieved virtually exclusively through willpower, coupled with all of the above evidence I presented, it should be rather clear that willpower has a stark correlation with one’s ability to wield the Force. Darth Vader’s enormously greater willpower thus affords him a far higher general power level than Revan, if the durability comparison wasn’t crystalline enough already.

As should have become obvious by now, the canonical superiority to Revan I was talking about is all over the feat: Vader performs better against the Emperor than Revan does against a factually inferior Sith Lord, so by extension he would logically be scaled above Revan, implicitly yet officially nonetheless. The degree of this superiority is gargantuan as well, considering all I’ve analyzed thus far, and it doesn’t help Revan that the Emperor has expressed worry over Darth Vader’s power in the Force, and George Lucas has stated Vader’s strength to be about 80% of the Emperor’s (link), further validating the idea that he’s not nearly as far off from his Master as many would like to believe, if Palpatine literally stating that Vader’s was powerful enough to end his life and the latter surviving prolonged exposure to the maximal potency of the Emperor’s power without even trying to protect himself didn’t make that obvious already. The only way you can really argue Revan’s victory is through lightsaber combat, but I’m convinced Vader can simply ragdoll Revan should his opponent ever manage to pressure him in a duel. That’s incredibly unlikely in itself, but I’m saving their martial capabilities for later as I don’t see it necessary for Vader to even draw his lightsaber as they are worlds apart in Force power.

That’s all for now.

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#9 Posted by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope you have other arguments. I'm busy the next couple days, but I'll hopefully start writing a rebuttal on Monday.

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#10 Posted by PenguinLover (994 posts) - - Show Bio

This looks like fun. T4V.

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#11 Posted by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio

OH YES

T4V!!!!

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#12 Posted by DarthSkywalker0 (210 posts) - - Show Bio

All debates on the Ant vs. Az card have judges. There is no T4V.

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#13 Posted by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio

This is CV, why does the stupid judge system exist?

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#14 Posted by DarthSkywalker0 (210 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: So that Ant doesn't bring his retarded minions from Facebook to manipulate the result.

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#16 Posted by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by DarthSkywalker0 (210 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger:

Ah, I see.

Does Ant really have that many minions though? And do they have accounts on CV?

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#20 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: Don't know how many followers he has. It's just a precautionary measure.

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#21 Posted by GuildSeal (270 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger said:

@dark-sith123: Don't know how many followers he has. It's just a precautionary measure.

Ok. At the very least, tag us when the debate is finished.

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#22 Posted by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

I sincerely hope that there is a better argument for Vader than that, or this won't take long at all.

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#23 Edited by slayne (521 posts) - - Show Bio

Good opener Az.

also kek @ that image

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#24 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6208 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Online
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#25 Posted by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio

This is just an opener. Az has many more arguments up his sleeve, calm down and wait for events to unfold.

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#26 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

The walls have started, goodluck to both of you.

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#28 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

V4T

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#29 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

All debates on the Ant vs. Az card have judges. There is no T4V.

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#30 Posted by deactivated-5c359ed39a233 (290 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#31 Edited by Grinningf0x (1473 posts) - - Show Bio

PLEASE T4V

EDIT: just saw the judge thing so NVM😅

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#32 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2535 posts) - - Show Bio

TV4

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#33 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2535 posts) - - Show Bio

@jkbart said:

POWER

Wait Jkbart is alive I thought he committed suicide

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#34 Posted by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio

@in-sidiousvader:

Nah, he's been alive for a long time. Or rather, he came back from the dead.

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#35 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2535 posts) - - Show Bio

@in-sidiousvader:

Nah, he's been alive for a long time. Or rather, he came back from the dead.

Oh he must have trolled us with that post then

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#36 Posted by Jirou (531 posts) - - Show Bio

interesting. Could I be tagged for votes?

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#37 Posted by TheMuser (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to be a interesting debate. The use of judges to decide this debate is a good idea to prevent a popularity contest as both of these debaters are very well known and this is a particularly contentious debate. Also this debate is probably going to get pretty technical so its good that we are having people who know the material and arguments very well to judge here.

@jirou I think they will tag people once the debate is over for reading. However the winner will be determined by judges per the OP.

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#38 Posted by Vivec3629 (446 posts) - - Show Bio

Should be interesting.

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#39 Edited by KeenCraft (825 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I definitely have wanted to see this for a while. What with the fellatio people have been giving these characters.

T4V if only

Just tag me anyway lol. I want to know which group will have their moment of glory here.

Also, that banner killed me

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#40 Posted by Emperordmb (1987 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by Jedi_Jesus_Fish (23 posts) - - Show Bio

hm.. so they fight. this will be interesting.

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#42 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

(Original character count, excluding quoting and sourcing: 24,500/25,000)

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THE WEAKNESS OF INFERIORS

The number of conditions that allowed Anakin Skywalker to destroy the Emperor are not present in this matchup - nor in any other, real or hypothetical - and cannot be used as argumentation.

I. CIRCUMSTANTIAL STRENGTH

It was instinct and revelation, love for his son and hatred for the creature who was killing him, that gave Anakin Skywalker the strength to return, the strength to pick up the Emperor, to absorb the fatal energy, and to hurl Palpatine to his death in the depths of the Death Star.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 111

The above statement reveals the specific source of Anakin’s strength against the Emperor was his overwhelming love for Luke and his absolute hatred for the Emperor. This circumstantial strength was only brought forth after seeing the Emperor torture his son: “Seeing his son having his life drained out of him by the Emperor clearly awoke something inside of Darth Vader” (Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 111). Per the first quote, without these two conditions and the context that arose them, Anakin would not have had “the strength” to replicate the deed. Unless Darth Vader is utterly overwhelmed with lust and envy after seeing Revan’s luscious locks, his powers and intentions here will be noticeably distinct - and inferior.

II. LUKE SKYWALKER VS DARTH VADER

The difference in Vader’s standard strength and mindset to Anakin’s sacrificial, son-saving, evil-destroying, Chosen One prophecy-filling act demonstrates itself through the fact Luke Skywalker is repeatedly and canonically stated to be either equal to or greater than Darth Vader in Force power during Return of the Jedi. The below statements clearly refer to combat-applicable power given they are in direct reference to the second Death Star duel.

Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

Source: Star Wars - Beware of the Sith

Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers.

Source: Star Wars - Jedi Battles

The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 111

Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious than the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.

Source: Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi script

On the Death Star, Luke and Darth Vader were engaged in a duel that was even more vicious than their battle on Cloud City. Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter, and his skill with his lightsaber had improved greatly. As they swung at each other in the Emperor’s throne room, Luke sensed the advantage had shifted to him.

Source: Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi junior novelization

For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

Source: Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi adult novelization

On the Death Star, father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man. But unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon-freezing chamber of Bespin's Cloud City, this is a battle of equals. The young Jedi has grown in the interim, and if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him.

Source: Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi comic

There is a popular misconception that Vader held back against Luke given, in the Courtship of the Princes Leia, Luke muses, “So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me,” after being internally telekinetically attacked by Gethzerion. However, refer to the Return of the Jedi adult novelization and the Return of the Jedi comic quotes. The Return of the Jedi adult novelization highlights Vader’s thoughts during the fight, and Vader himself is shocked by Luke’s strength, concedes Luke might defeat him, and even feels humiliated because of such, making it clear Vader couldn’t just beat Luke with the Force whenever he wished. Next, the Return of the Jedi comic explicitly states that Vader unleashed “his full strength and power” against Luke, so that’s that. Not only would Vader’s own thoughts and an out-of-universe, omniscient narrator take precedence over Luke’s baseless assumption and reveal he is in error, but Luke is likely referring to the Cloud City fight anyway. It makes sense Luke would reflect on a fight where many sources canonically state Vader held back his powers rather than one where overwhelming primary and secondary sources testify Vader give it his all.

The second father-son duel took place on Emperor Palpatine’s second Death Star. Now more able to control the Force, Luke Skywalker was finally able to defeat his powerful father. But he was no match for the evil Emperor.

Source: Star Wars - Secrets of the Sith

The above quote perfectly parlays into the next point. Despite Luke’s relative or superior powers to Vader, his strength was still utterly dwarfed by the Emperor.

Still lying against the bridge railing beside the elevator shaft, Vader watched the Emperor extend his gnarled fingers and unleash blinding bolts of blue lightning from his fingertips. The lightning struck Luke, who tried to deflect the crackling bands of energy, but was so overwhelmed that his body crumpled to the floor.

Source: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader

Infuriated by Luke’s resilience against the dark side, the Emperor unleashed a deadly torrent of dark side lightning. Skywalker was powerless to resist the onslaught, and his life was fast draining away.

Source: The Official Fact Files 120

Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling . . . Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain.

Source: Source: Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi script

Luke attempted to absorb the Emperor’s Force lightning "but was so overwhelmed” and “powerless” he crumbled to the floor. As the Return of the Jedi adult novelization and script portray, this is clearly a pitting of Luke’s Force energy against the Emperor’s. The text further notes the Emperor continually intensified his Force lightning after overpowering Luke. This performance by Luke directly demonstrates how Vader would ordinarily fare against the Emperor - near-instantly overwhelmed against but a taste of his dark side powers. Funny enough, this is similar to how you (erroneously) mocked Revan versus Vitiate.

Ironic.

III. CIRCUMSTANTIAL STRENGTH, CONT.

As you already kindly quoted, “Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed” (Source: Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi adult novelization). In other words, on top of the “Applied Behavior Analysis,” Vader had gathered and focused his strength across the span of multiple “minutes” to destroy the Emperor. This renders it utterly non-applicable to combat. It baffles me how you are trying to compare the amount of energy a surprised Emperor can summon in a split-second to the power Vader can gather more than a hundred times longer. Likewise, against Revan, Vader will only have seconds, and even less when they engage, to summon such energies.

III. OBI-WAN KENOBI VS DARTH VADER

As stated in the rules, this debate follows the policy of Lucas Licensing, including that any statements by George Lucas - G-Canon - hold absolute authority and retcon any apparent contradictions in lesser sources.

The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader.George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.

Source: Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays

The above statement reveals that Ben Kenobi is significantly more powerful than Vader in not only A New Hope but also The Empire Strikes Back. While Luke advanced to a level two by The Empire Strikes Back, Vader remained static at a level four, indicating either lackluster growth or a vast difference between levels. Either way, there’s no plausible reality where Vader not only rapidly grew stronger than Ben, but also comparably powerful to the Emperor, in six months.

This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker . . .

Source: Star Wars: Jedi Battles

Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.

Source: Star Wars: Death Star

Of course, Vader being significantly less powerful than Ben has other consequences - namely that Revenge of the Sith should likewise be more powerful than Vader even as The Empire Strikes Back. This is curious considering, according to your Sheev Palpatine respect thread, “Note: Byss’ population increased by several million every single month, eventually reaching almost 20 billion. The amount of people Palpatine could feed off of, and by proxy, his rate of growth in the Force, would have been multiplied to an absolutely enormous degree.”

Palpatine (ROTJ) >>> Palpatine (ROTS) >> Obi-Wan Kenobi (ROTS) > (or =) Ben Kenobi (ANH) >> Darth Vader (ESB), per the Lucas quote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N36bCj5_Yrg

THE BOOK OF ANGER

I am genuinely appalled that the Children’s Hospital of the Iron Tower allowed the below arguments to be made. There’s absolutely no way they were conceived and written without the loss of significant cognitive function, damaging our champion trying to move forward. If anyone has their contact information, please encourage them to monitor these posts before they are put out. Otherwise, I fear this debate will end rather quickly.

[[“In the space of only a few seconds,” Revan begins “spasming uncontrollably” and “collapse[s] to the ground” under the Shit Emperor’s assault. In contrast, Vader literally walks through the Galactic Emperor’s barrage for close to ten seconds never breaking stride, as seen from the movie (link).]]

This is a terribly misleading analysis.

Again, you’re comparing the strength Anakin amassed across the span of minutes to the strength a surprised Emperor unleashed in a split-second across ten seconds, not to mention specifically Anakin’s love for Luke and hatred for the Emperor “gave him the strength” to do it. For a better comparison, we have an amused Emperor almost immediately overwhelm Luke.

As for Revan and Vitiate, both paused and gathered their energies beforehand. Thus, the power difference was naturally exasperated, and the potency of Vitiate’s lightning became greatly amplified relatively. Vitiate also began charging his energies before Revan and was boosted by the dark side nexus of both Dromund Kaas and the Imperial Citadel.

Consider: If Revan absorbed all of the Vitiate's energy, it would be a direct display of parity or superiority over the Vitiate. Since Revan is albeit marginally, inferior to Vitiate, it follows that he was overwhelmed. The fact Revan absorbed enough to suffer only minor injuries that he quickly healed indicates Revan and the Vitiate were comparable in power.

Also, the “only a few seconds” quote applies to only after Revan’s been overwhelmed.

[[Vader “focused solely and sightlessly on his will” “to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor” while “ignoring” everything else, meaning that he was focusing all his energy into killing the Emperor rather than defending from his attack with a proper Force defense, unlike Revan, which is made all the more clear by their brachial positions: Revan’s being an overt sign of tutaminsis while Vader’s being bereft of any defensive gestures, indicating the only Force shield he did have was likely an instinctive, subconscious one, much weaker than an active barrier.]]

You act like Vader lived. Revan mitigated the lethality of his attack, then collapsed due to the “indescribable pain.” In contrast, Anakin managed to “ignore the pain” but still later died.

Besides, the fact Anakin ignored the pain doesn’t mean he ignored all protection - shielding himself is inherently apart of “defeating the evil embodied in the Emperor.” Again quoting The Official Star Wars Fact File 111, “Love for his son and hatred for the creature who was killing him gave Anakin Skywalker the strength to absorb the fatal energy,” suggesting an active resistance. At the least, it’s baseless to assert Anakin’s slugging it with just a lesser Force barrier.

[[Vader, while mortally wounded as per many sources, nonetheless didn’t look all that different from any of his other appearances without his helmet, indicating his wounds were less severe than Revan’s despite the Emperor’s lightning tearing all over his body “into his heart” and “penetrated his life-support and electrified Anakin’s organic remains” according to The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader meaning that his lesser, subconscious Force barrier is stronger than Revan at his most stalwart.]]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpuRcmPnSTM

The fact Anakin was mortally wounded yet Revan wasn’t directly means Anakin had more severe wounds than Revan. I cannot fathom what your brain went through as you thought otherwise. As to why Revan suffered second-degree burns from the heat of Vitiate’s lightning and Anakin apparently did not, Vader’s suit is equipped with a variety of systems that mitigate and externally release the heat of Palpatine’s lightning.

Excess heat is bled through the metal surface via radiator conduction pads, a system that preserves the helmet seal. Cooling units on the suit’s collar achieve a similar but more direct result. The bodysuit is made of cushioning fabrics with an outer layer of multi-ply fireproof material. Although not armored, the bodysuit provides some protection against combat damage and exposure to flames and corrosive gases, while still allowing an acceptable range of motion.

Source: Star Wars Darth Vader - A 3-D Reconstruction Log

[[The Shit Emperor continued to “pour more and more power” into his lightning even after Revan’s skin “began to boil and blister,” insinuating that the Shit Emperor wasn’t even at full strength when Revan fell under his might, as one obviously cannot add to something that is already at its zenith; the only way to do that would be under the conditions that the Sith Emperor wasn’t giving it his all in the initial clash. Vader on the other hand experienced “the full force of his Dark Master’s evil lightning” (link) whereas there is no indication whatsoever that the Shit Emperor went all-out on Revan]]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iwF7tNS3O4&t=1m23s

The statement is, “the Emperor poured more and more power into him,” not, “the Emperor poured more and more power into his lightning.” There’s a difference. The actual quote simply means Vitiate continued shocking Revan with lightning after the initial explosion of power. It’s clear Vitiate reached his zenith with the first “dozen of purple bolts” given the dramatic drop in his lightning’s potency - the following stream merely boiled and splintered a defenseless Revan’s skin.

[[Now we’re getting into the second gem in the Return of the Jedi novelization: Darth Vader’s willpower. The text states that Vader “focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.” Thus, it is abundantly clear that Vader’s strength of will was not only a primary factor in the Emperor’s death, but rather the only factor, at least as far as Vader’s conscious actions go. Obviously, succeeding in killing the most godlike Force entity to have ever graced the galaxy with his presence just by willing it so is a colossal feat, only surpassed by a few in the willpower department.

Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader fits into the exact same mold: his willpower is so great the Force is swept aside in his wake, and reality itself becomes subservient to him.]]

(azronger be writing this shit like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxIOzJrOlaU&t=4m13s)

Except what you’re saying is demonstrably not true. Vader, despite willing it greatly, is unable to survive for long periods of time without his suit, to turn Luke to the dark side, to defeat Luke despite using “his full strength and power,” etc. Further, if reality itself becomes subservient to him, then how did Vader even die? Are almighty Sheev’s powers beyond reality times two?

[[And no, this isn’t hyperbole; I’ve seen people arbitrarily latch on “hyperbole” to almost everything in this book for the simple reason that “Matthew Stover.” Not only is that not a valid reason, but by choosing to label something as hyperbole purely on personal whim would mean anyone could dismiss anything whenever they felt like it and debating wouldn’t function. A statement is only hyperbole if you can prove its implausibility when interpreted literally. If something works literally without issue, then it is to be taken at face value.]]

While I have no issue with interpreting the Invisible Hand displays like that - I figure they’re momentary pulsations of his Father-level potential as his powers race out of control - it’s obvious Anakin can’t always bend reality to his will, which you seem to be arguing. That’s false - and renders your examples hyperbole - given Anakin cannot will Padme to live nor Obi-Wan to die.

The most fundamental issue with your argument, however, is assuming parity between Revan as of Revan and Shadow of Revan. They’re two completely different beasts, especially in willpower.

I. REBIRTH

Consistently throughout Star Wars, Force users have grown more powerful after returning from the brink of death. Darth Krayt did (“Death is not an ending, boy - but it is a passageway to something greater I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied”). Vitiate did (“With each rebirth, he grew stronger”). Darth Maul did (“Coming back from near death may have made the Sith Lord stronger”). The same logically applies for Revan.

2. GROWTH

Directly following his resurrection, Revan’s presence - a disturbance in the Force - started out “small and nearly imperceptible.” However, according to the Emperor’s Hand, the presence “had been growing ever larger” since. By the time Revan reveals himself four years later, his disturbance causes the Force “to roil and convulse like never before.” Lana Beniko notes that his presence “exists nowhere and everywhere at once,” repeating the idea Revan’s passively impacting the wavelengths of the Force on a galactic scale.

3. STRENGTH

"Of course, it's so obvious now. You have no idea what I am, what I've become. / You don't even begin to comprehend what I've become. / What I've become, you have no hope of stopping. I was a Dark Lord of the Sith. I was the Prodigal Knight. I was powerful--but I was also weak. Not anymore. Now I'm pure. Unburdened. I can finally have revenge on my jailer and save the galaxy doing it! I have the power, and you have nothing!”

Source: Revan, Star Wars The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan

Just like Krayt, Revan has his own “I’m more powerful than ever” speech in Shadow of Revan. With the split, Revan’s “hatred,” “strength,” and “focus” became physical Revan, whereas his “wisdom” detached and assumed a spirit. Thus, physical Revan is, truly, a “pure” and “unburdened” embodiment of Revan’s power, fueled, like Darth Sion, through will alone.

Spirit Revan states, “Hatred fueled cunning, but burned out all wisdom. Without me, you could not see,” to which the Outlander responds, “And without him, you died. He needs your wisdom, but you need his strength. His focus,” substanting the idea that physical Revan embodies his power at, admittedly, the cost of being even greater lunatic sociopath than normal.

The foremost demonstration of this is the Temple of Sacrifice fight. Revan attempted to channel the energies of The Machine to effectively destroy all enemies, including armies of coalition forces, within a one-kilometer radius. Revan lost control of the power when ambushed by the coalition strike team, and the planet-razing energies overloaded and backlashed inside of him. While Force barriers are obviously ineffective to an internal explosion, Revan willed his body to stay together as the energies visibly erupted out of him. Thus, he’s clearly well beyond the domain of physical pain or second-degree burns as suffered by Vitiate in Revan, and there’s no indication the dark side nexus would change the nature of the feat - it may even amplify the internal energies.

THE CREATION OF MONSTERS

I. VITIATE (SWTOR) >>> VITIATE (ZIOST)

Vitiate, as of the vanilla The Old Republic, is exponentially more powerful than spirit Vitiate when he consumed Ziost. The discrepancy between incarnations are shown by two massive power gaps.

A. PHYSICAL VITIATE (SWTOR) >>> SPIRIT VITIATE (SWTOR)

CHAINED PHYSICAL VAYLIN > SPIRIT VALKORION: In Knights of the Eternal Throne Chapter 3, chained Vaylin directly overpowers spirit Valkorion’s time-stop [a], to which the Outlander either responds, “Your daughter’s even stronger than you,” or, “Kill her now, Valkorion!” If the latter, Valkorion reveals, “Only you can strike her down” [b], showing Vaylin’s beyond his domain. Instead, Valkorion directly back-peddles from her [c] and, rather than subdue her with the Force, resorts to revealing and triggering her mental conditioning [d].

UNCHAINED PHYSICAL VAYLIN >>> CHAINED PHYSICAL VAYLIN: Most of Vaylin’s power is suppressed through extensive mental conditioning. To break this, six superweapons fired upon her [e]. Initially, Vaylin is completely overwhelmed and agonized in a sphere of green energy [f]. As her conditioning cracks, doctors observe, "Her power is racing out of control”[g], with her mere pulsations of power staggering [h] and frightening [i] spirit Valkorion. Once it shatters, Vaylin’s shown to be completely beyond [j] - and even directly overpower [k] - the influence of weaponry.

SPIRIT VALKORION >>> CHAINED SPIRIT VAYLIN: Upon becoming a spirit, unchained Vaylin’s power radically reduced from being far more powerful than spirit Valkorion to being casually telekinetically dominated by him [l]. Note Arcann explicitly confirmed Vaylin was not chained: “He will cage you again, unless you join us”[m].

TL:DR: Unchained physical Vaylin >>> chained physical Vaylin > spirit Valkorion >>> unchained spirit Vaylin. Thus, there is an astronomical difference in power between physical bodies and spirits, demonstrating physical Vitiate is vastly more powerful than standard spirit Vitiate.

B. SPIRIT VITIATE (SWTOR) >>> SPIRIT VITIATE (NATHEMA)

THE RITUAL OF NATHEMA: The Nathema Conspiracy recontextualized the Ritual of Nathema, completely differentiating it from the cataclysm of Ziost. The Gravestone, an Iokath superweapon with a Death Star-esque laser, fired on and razed Nathema. Simultaneously, Vitiate, through a ten day ritual with eight-thousand Sith Lords, “consumed the life energy of every being on his homeworld,” or, as described by Scourge, “absorbed those life essences through the Force,” including the “millions” of inhabitants, the eight-thousand Sith Lords, and all fauna and flora of a “lust and vibrant world.” Further, Vitiate sucked dry the entirety of the planet’s cosmic Force - unnaturally amplified to “the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see.”

THE BATTLE OF YAVIN: After the failure of a galaxy-spanning ritual and the defeat of all his Voices, Vitiate’s spirit wasn’t just a weakened reflection of his normal self like unchained Vaylin’s - he was on “the brink of oblivion.” Vitiate could not possess a single body and was forced to go into slumber on Yavin. While Vitiate fed off the deaths of the Revanite crisis, he merely “gained power enough to flee the jungle moon and survive,” revealing that his spirit remained unnaturally weakened and that even thousands of casualties is a fraction of the fuel needed to restore him.

THE CATACLYSM OF ZIOST: When weakened spirit Vitiate moved to Ziost, he began to possess individuals, have them kill others, feed on the death, and expand in influence. However, Vitiate merely siphoned the death from a single city - New Adasta, per Lana Beniko, “Our former Emperor, however, has limited his involvement to the area around New Adasta - near you.” This renders it impossible Vitiate even remotely replenished his spirit with just the conflict in New Adasta when his full-powered spirit is tethered with the life essence of the entirety of Nathema.

C. CONCLUSION

No Caption Provided

Vitiate on Ziost has to not just make up the gap between his weakened spirit and standard spirit, but also his standard spirit and his physical body, both of which are nigh-insurmountable and neither of which are compensated by New Adasta. Thus, a physical Vitiate can easily replicate and far surpass the cataclysm of Ziost, since his powers are far beyond the New Adasta-exclusive powers of weakened spirit Vitiate when he unleashed the death wave. Only after weakened spirit Vitiate consumes Ziost are his powers comparable to his standard spirit (consider: post-Ziost spirit Vitiate is roughly the same as spirit Valkorion) and, upon retaking Valkorion’s host body, comparable to his former self.

(Reminder: Regardless if you consider Vitiate's possessing and feeding across New Adasta as a ritual, the point is that, even after said "ritual," he's still colossally weaker than normal. There's nothing stating nor implying the death wave itself was created by a ritual. In the past, some have pointed to similarities with the Ritual of Nathema but, as already stated, the Gravestone cleansed all life there.)

II. REVAN (SWTOR) >>> VITIATE (ZIOST)

Revan’s directly in league with Vitiate as of the vanilla The Old Republic in Force power, as shown by both their physical fight in Revan and their prolonged war of wills.

A. VITIATE (NOVEL) ≈ REVAN (NOVEL)

His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward. Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time.

Source: Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan

The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.

Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Revan approached within striking distance of Vitiate. The fact Vitiate charged up his power as Revan crossed the forty meter walkway and did not unleash it until the last possible instant, despite the obvious risk and his fatal character flaw even being fear of death, suggests he could not have moved Revan without an unnatural amount of energy. The Old Republic Encyclopedia, as quoted above, essentially confirms such, revealing Vitiate established the Voice to guard against further vulnerability after Revan came within striking distance of him; If Vitiate could have pushed Revan away at any moment, he would not have been described as vulnerable nor in need of protection. This demonstrates Revan and Vitiate are comparable.

Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready. Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.

There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward. He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him.

Source: Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan

Compare Vitiate and Revan’s respective telekinetic attacks. Both Revan and Vitiate were unprepared for their opposing attacks and did not have the time to actively defend themselves, but each still had passive Force shields. However, while Revan’s turned the potentially lethal attack harmless, Vitiate was still outright temporarily knocked out: “He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him.” Google the definition of “in a heap” - per Google, “(Of a person) with the body completely limp,” per Macmillan Dictionary, “If you fall or lie in a heap, you lie without moving after you have fallen,” per Collins Dictionary, “If someone collapses in a heap, they fall heavily and untidily and do not move,” per Cambridge Dictionary, “to fall down heavily and lie on the ground without moving,” etc.

While part of Vitiate’s power was focused on dominating Revan’s will, Revan likewise likely diverted a significant portion of his power to fend off Vitiate’s telepathic attack. Revan wouldn’t have left his mind simply unguarded - a mere brush of Vitiate’s mind collapsed Scourge to the floor - and, as established in the next section, Revan explicitly requires and expends Force power to resist Vitiate. Overall, a super-charged Vitiate’s telekinesis had little effect on Revan and was unable to maintain any form of control over Revan thereafter, whereas a burst of Revan’s strength literally rendered Vitiate temporarily completely limp. Had the physical distance between the two been closer, it’s highly possible Revan would have struck down Vitiate.

B. VITIATE (SWTOR) ≈ REVAN (SWTOR)

Revan demonstrably stayed in lock-step with any growth Vitiate achieved through siphoning Revan between Revan and the vanilla The Old Republic. Revan counteracted Vitiate’s leaching by draining Meetra Surik’s spirit. However, given Vitiate drained Revan through the Force link established between them, and Revan realized the link could go both ways, it is likely Revan later began to directly drain Vitiate and the Dread Masters given, by the time he’s freed, he’s shocked to discover Meetra’s yet to become one with the Force.

Only once Revan’s power finally wane at the end of the Cold War, three-hundred and seven years after the mental war began, does Meetra worry Vitiate will soon overwhelm him, stating, “The darkness will consume all it touches. Stars will burn black, ashes raining on lifeless worlds. Everything ends. The prisoner holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for three-hundred years. His strength will fail, and he will become the darkness.” Vitiate's inability to overpower Revan's defenses for three-hundred years indicates a direct correlation between mental fortitude and Force strength. When Revan was close to or at full strength, Vitiate was unable to dominate him; He only begins to succeed as Revan's Force power begins to diminish.

According to Azronger’s own post, “It should be rather clear that willpower has a stark correlation with one’s ability to wield the Force.” Going off that idea, it’s nigh-impossible to not recognize Revan’s parity with Vitiate. In a direct contest of their wills across three centuries, Vitiate utterly failed to pry information from Revan’s mind or turn him into Darth Revan again - his two intended goals. To quote the disbelief of the protagonist, "The Emperor had three hundred years to break this man, and he never succumbed?" Eventually, Vitiate realized Revan was outright too strong to influence and, working simultaneously with the “incalculably powerful Dread Masters, attempted to capitalize on Revan’s past and split his consciousness in two: “That's why the Emperor tried so hard to split you up. Two pieces working separately aren't nearly as good as one whole, working together. / The Emperor split you apart, because you were strongest when you were together." However, even their combined might failed given the full split did not occur until the aftermath of the Foundry battle by Revan’s own prerogative. Sad!

(Clarification: It’s evident Vitiate didn’t plan to dominate Revan after the split - Revan the Returned has far greater willpower than Revan as of the mental war. Rather, Vitiate recognized a vengeance-filled Revan would inadvertently help him by resurrecting his spirit on Yavin 4, which has nothing to do with telepathic persuasion, as stated by Arlo Grennen, “Revan is coming. I vowed to do everything in my power to stop Revan, but he does not want me to. He chose this place, he knew this day would come, knew the very core of me, everything.”)

In contrast, Revan pulled “centuries of knowledge” from Vitiate (e.g. teleportation hax), subtly manipulated him into postponing a war he had planned for one-thousand years for another three-centuries, and, given the rapid development of events, presumably rather abruptly and forcefully persuaded Vitiate into initiating the Treaty of Coruscant. The final feat is enormously impressive given it shows Revan directly overriding Vitiate’s most intrinsic desires. Not only did the truce halt Vitiate’s meticulously planned galaxy ritual but, according to Meetra, Revan’s power continually pacified Vitiate for the following eleven years the treaty was in effect: “The prisoner holds the darkness at bay.” Given all this, it’s sheer mental gymnastics to argue Revan’s not comparably powerful to Vitiate . . . again, per your own words, “It should be rather clear that willpower has a stark correlation with one’s ability to wield the Force.”

C. CONCLUSION

Revan’s demonstrably comparably powerful with physical Vitiate, who, in turn, is colossally beyond New Adasta-based weakened spirit Vitiate in power. Thus, Revan’s power is on a far greater level than the power required to perform the death wave of Ziost, likely significantly stronger than spirit Vitiate even afterward (although not once he inhabits the Valkorion body). Overall, this is level of power far beyond anything Vader’s ever hoped to show. It’s genuinely hard to see how Revan doesn’t instantly incinerate Vader here as he did Darth Nyriss.

Physical Vitiate >= Revan >>> Spirit Vitiate >>> Weakened spirit / Ziost Vitiate (>>> Darth Vader).

D. POST SCRIPTUM

Then, why did Revan need the Temple of Sacrifice?

The Temple of Sacrifice was specifically designed to restore specific spirits to physical forms. In fact, Vitiate specifically safeguarded - and likely outright created - the temple as a final safety net if ever needed, hence why his sanctuary and slumbering spirit are directly next door. Such a resurrection procedure clearly necessitates more than obliterating worlds with raw power - ritual is required. Revan’s fiddling with linking incorporeal spirits, channeling specific planetary energies into host bodies, ensuring other local and hungry Sith spirits do not siphon the chaos, etc. Thus, Revan’s first going to try to use this all-in-one device before he gets his hands dirty.

However, Revan doesn’t “need” the Temple of Sacrifice. Even after losing the temple and all his followers, Revan was still confident in razing Yavin 4 - alone. As to how, Revan himself states, “If I have to snuff out every life on this world by hand to draw the Emperor out, then so be it!" Revan’s thwarted before we get to see what he means, but his statement suggests he plans to directly substitute himself for the Temple of Sacrifice and do everything the hard way: personally “snuffing out every life on this world by hand” and cooking up the necessary rituals to channel and conjure Vitiate’s physical form. After all, Revan plans to resurrect Vitiate on the Forgotten Terrace, where there’s no visible extraneous aid. The point, though, isn’t whether this quote alone suggests Revan’s of imaginable level of power - let the rest of my argument speak to that - just that Shadow of Revan doesn’t contradict the ideas already put forth - quite the contrary.

SUMMARY

  • Darth Vader's handling of the Emperor is circumstantial: Vader charged up his strength for minutes beforehand, and his love for Luke and hatred for the Emperor explicitly granted him the strength required to do it. However, Vader's powers are equal or inferior to Luke Skywalker's, so we can gauge Vader's standard strength relative to the Emperor that way . . . and it's not pretty.
  • There is a vast discrepancy in power between Vitiate's physical incarnation and his spiritual manifestation, and his standard Nathema-absorbed spirit and his small New Adasta-siphoned spirit that unleashed a planetary death wave across Ziost. Revan's demonstrably comparable to physical Vitiate, yet alone the rest, revealing he's on a domain far beyond Vader's - which is sub-Ben Kenobi per George Lucas.

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#43 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice.

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#44 Posted by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio

Ehh... that's... sweet. Like to see where this one goes.

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#45 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2678 posts) - - Show Bio

While the whole ROTS Obi Wan>>Ben in the force and Ben>>Vader scaling was amusing among other questionable points pertaining to ROTJ there, the rest of the content was pretty solid here

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#46 Posted by TheMuser (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

Ant spitting fire as usual. This is getting interesting.

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#47 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16546 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boi.... lets see how this goes

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#49 Edited by HitTheAssasin (8036 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol at reality warping Anakin and that being used as an argument in his favour. Ah well, Tag after every post, please.

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#50 Posted by dark-sith123 (5027 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin:

What's so funny about it? It's perfectly valid, and no, Az has addressed "but muh, hyperbole!"