CaV Spider-Man(Blackspidey) and Green Goblin(MH) vs Ken Kaneki(Valor) and Garou(Watcher) (Watcher and Valor win)

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#102 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: You said probably before too. No preassure though, my side took as long too.

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#104 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: Cool. I am both nervous and exited, at the same time.

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#106 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#107 Posted by blackspidey2099 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: awesome post, my man! Looks like we're almost done! :)

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#109 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

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Counters To Valor

How? Ken continuously had his fingers and toes ripped off, was raped and beaten, and was starved for 10 days straight, yet you don't find it impressive when he stomps an S-ranked Ghoul directly after? I'm sorry, but what you find impressive doesn't dictate just how immensely spectacular this was.

The feat itself is impressive. What I meant was, it is not as impressive.

When Ghouls go without food (in their case, humans), their regeneration is dulled incredibly. Ken only ate what was the bare minimum to stay alive for those 10 days, and that was just to keep the torture from killing him.

So their regen can be overtaxed by lack of food. But I wonder, can anything else overtax it?

Plenty. He was clashing with a full Kakuja Amon, who is above building level, and a weaker Ken was tanking his hits without getting too injured.

I meant I wanted to see their above building feats.

No. The walls of the Treskelion are featless, and being able to hold superpowered prisoners is far too vague to constitute as an actual durability feat. The compactor that Eto destroyed, on the other hand, has tangible feats and statements to back up it's durability.

Whoever told you it was featless? It was made to withstand nuclear bombs.

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I have already explained above why Eto packs more of a punch than Goblin, so no. Even if it did break Ken's bones, he would heal nigh instantly, and that's only if Goblin can catch him.

Except the Goblin wouldn't let him heal. Once he catches Ken, he wouldn't even have an instant to catch his breath. That's just how Norman fights.

He took Eto's attack to the head without being knocked out, so I have serious doubts as to whether or not Goblin is capable of such a feat.

Goblin should be stronger than Eto based on feats. And since I can't see the scan where Ken tanked the attack (I might have missed it on your post but I could not find it), I have no idea how many hits he actually tanked.

No doubt, but Ken's regeneration is so fast that he probably wouldn't notice the damage. I also don't know why you've brought this up, as it means nothing in context to the actual fight.

Ken's regen is hardly that fast. I haven't seen a scan of him getting chopped and still fighting normally, the regen scans you have shown show Ken pausing to heal.

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Says the time he was two-shot by Ultimate Peter and one-shot by 616 Peter...

Did you know that Spider people are stronger than they are durable? Miles could have probably one shot Ultimate Pete as well if he was serious.

Feats for Ultimate Docter Doom? He can't be too durable, as Miles isn't even building level.

Here he is tanking attacks from the FF and getting back up.

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And here he is breaking zombie Thing's arms.

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See my above points. Also, Miles doesn't live in some battle anime, so him being bloodlusted isn't going to make the feat more impressive.

Yes, yes it does. Seriously, every good natured hero gets like a tier stronger every time they lose their morals. That's how Spidey beats Vermin.

Additionally, considering the fact that Ken could kill Miles in a single hit if he really wanted to, this doesn't change Goblin's current disadvantage.

That's debatable. But I am pretty sure Miles is much stronger than Ken as he can OHKO building sized giants.

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Cute. Ghouls have skin that is harder than steel, and Quinques are made to cut them, yet a weaker Ken was cutting through Quinques like butter.

Normal armor piercing bullets can pierce a block of titanium (obviously much stronger than steel).

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And The Green Goblin took armor piercing rounds meant for the Hulk.

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You consider Pete's one-trick-pony webs to be more versatile than something that can literally shapeshift into pretty much any weapon or body part, fake-out Ken's enemies with talking mouths and faces, and pierce and slash through nearly anything? Whatever it is that you're smoking, I want some.

Those webs weren't one trick ponies (they have setting that shoot tasers, acid, cement etc.). But in the recent run their versatility was reversed.

Any fire resistance feats would be scaled off of Takizawa, but even without them, Ken has shown that he can casually produce more than twice his body mass in Kagune, so losing it wouldn't be a problem.

If he lost it, it would be his skin getting burned which would definitely be a problem.

It most definitely does not apply here, as Goblin has never fought anyone as fast or skilled as Ken or Garou.

Spidey may not be as skilled but as fast? He definitely should be or he should at least be in their level. Here he is dodging bullets casually.

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And Electro's blasts

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Here he is dancing around Daredevil and Iron Fist's attacks casually.

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Both are bullet timers by the way (at least I think Daredevil is). Here Iron Fist is dodging a bullet point blank

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Ken could just jump up...

You two seem to forgetting a tiny little detail. Norman Osborne, can explode buildings, he can blow himself up and a building would feel the affect, top to bottom.

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And yes, that is the same building made to withstand a nuke. Granted, it was going under repairs when Norman blew it up (which explains the cranes). Whoever Norman was also poisoned when this happened and should have been asleep because of it.

Are you daft? Of course skill will factor in

Yeah.....who said it wouldn't? I said it wouldn't be the only factor. Especially when you take into account the fact that Garou's style is apparently strictly made around fighting humans and not bests.

As both Watcher and I have said, our team holds far more advantages than yours. We are far more skilled, intelligent, and tactical, which leads me into my strategy below.

3 advantages that mean virtually the same thing.....

Counters To Watcher

Yet he has been hurt by lesser bullets later.

But the bullets still bounced right off him. So it doesn't really matter whether it hurt him (which it shouldn't have since he has taken worse in the past).

And was even hurt by this

You mean something from his lab? I don't remember the exact details of that fight but I am pretty sure that fight takes place in his lab, where the instruments there are made to pierce his skin as the Goblin as that is how he administers his serum (or that's how he used to do it at least).

So what? Garou would absolutely shred Ultimate Peter and Miles together, so bringing up Goblin fighting slower people than Garou is pointless.

No, he wouldn't. But that's besides the point, Garou may be faster than them but they are all in the same ball park in terms of speed.

What is the height of those blasts? They appear to be about the height of UGG, so Garou should have no trouble jumping over them,seeing as how a weakened Garou could do jump pretty high.

Maybe taller than he is. Not too tall. Although you forget that he literally blew up a side of a building while weakened. So Garou's jump is pretty small in comparison.

Basic not perfect. This just means that everyone knows they should work together, but it by no means disregards how they act in character.Goblin hates and killed his version of Spider-Man, so prove to me he will work better with this version.

Basic is good enough. Also, you ask me to prove to you that Goblin would work with Peter however I already did.The wiki link I posted for you says this

"The Ultimate Six, consisting of the Sandman, Doctor Octopus, Kraven the Hunter, Electro, and Green Goblin (who tried to recruit Spider-Man through blackmail),"

So yeah, Norman is more than willing to work with peter. Also, he didn't hate Ultimate Peter, Peter is his greatest achievement.

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He has experience leading a team, but I doubt Spider-Man will be taking orders from Goblin. Once again this will cause trouble with your team. And no, Garou hunts heroes alone, but he isn't stupid and if he sees the need to work with Ken Kaneki then he will.

Norman won't be shouting out orders, he fights like a self aware animal. But Peter will know that make the most from their partnership.

So? This just means he knows he is working with a person he hates.

No, it will mean that he will understand the situation way better. He will be able to tell if Peter needs Garou off him then create an AoE blast.

That said it isn't like Goblin and Spider-Man are overly complicated in terms of powersets. Goblin is just a brick with pyrokinetic abilities, while spider-man is just a superhuman with pre-cognitive abilities. These are things Garou could find counters to and adapt against if he is faced with them.

As the Flash would say, that feels like a bit of an oversimplification of their power sets. Regardless, unless Garou can adapt like Doomsday, I don't think he will be able to tank too many of Norman's blasts.

You make it seem like martial arts won't help here,

Not my intention.

how is it that Cap or punisher give Spider-Man trouble? Luck? It's skill and Garou has loads of it, and techniques like his fist of flowing water crushed rock technique guarantee that Garou will be hitting the hardest of anyone no matter who he faces.

That martial art is directly aimed for fighting other humans.

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Meaning Norman's biology could throw Garou off. Heck, a guy named Watchdog Man just fought like an animal and that threw Garou off.

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And also what's Goblin's resistance to pressure points like? As far as I know, it's nonexistent, so Garou can abuse this if he ends up fighting Goblin.

To use pressure points on Norman you would need to hit hard enough that his innards would feel it, and I don;t think you have the power.

Really? Garou was matching multiple attacks from metal bat when one was shown to be able to shake a city block.

He was just deflecting the hits. When Metal Bat almost got a clean shot in, Garou implied it might have ended him.

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Mind showing me that time Goblin did something like that?

Here:

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And here:

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And yeah, Osborne need distance to do that but he can create distance easily, by jumping real high.

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And Garou like I shown, could take punches from Genos, the same guy who(when he was weaker) can send DSK flying through a monster relief shelter and a couple buildings.

Where was the scan? Is it under this ?

"And Garou is able to hold his own against a faster Genos just fine despite being heavily weakened,poisoned, wounded, and exhausted(from fighting 8 different heroes all at once)."

Because under that is just Garou dodging Genos' attacks then blocking a hit using a flowing water kick.

And just to why that's impressive, they were stated to be able to no sell missiles and tank fire.

I'm not really seeing Garou taking a punch like that from Genos. I mean he was rag dolled by a hit from TTM.

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He can jump or outrun it.

But he can't tank it (from what I recall, Garou has no heat/energy resistance feats). And as I have showed Goblin can make his attacks building sized (I showed that since my first post).

Cool, it's still happening though.

That's up to the voters. Not you.

Besides range what do you have?

Durability and strength.

Garou is arguably the strongest one here(actually I have no doubt he is but you guys will try to dispute it I'm sure),

Based on what feats?

is without a doubt the fast, is the most skilled, and was still able to fight after a prolonged beating from Bang and Bomb, and Bang alone is enough to stomp Goblin and Spider-Man simultaneously. Range and being the "most durable" can only get you so far when your outclassed so badly in speed that you can't tag your opponents,are outclassed in skill, and won't even be able to work with your teammate.

Goblin can tag you guys with his blasts. Which are again, building sized. And Garou hasn't shown much or any resistance to energy based attacks.

If he dies here he loses.

If that's the case then that should be the same for Ken.

That said he can die as miles morales and that police officer proven.

Miles' venom blasts are his Kryptonite.

And Garou has a technique he absorbed through combat from Bomb that does piercing damage, so once Garou beats Spider-Man he can help turn Goblin to confetti. Just to show what it looks like

And when has Garou used it?

That would be an accurate example, if that martial artist had the strength to knock out the bear,was fast enough to never be tagged, was durable enough to tank everything the bear threw at him, had the ability to adapt past those he fights, and had techniques that allows him to hit 2x harder than said bear.

Except Garou does not have the strength to KO Norman, can be tagged by my massive AoE, can't tank anything really and depends on dodging constantly (as TTM says in the hospital scan), won't have a chance to adapt and his techniques are aimed at fighting other humans.

Mind showing me a single feat that beats moving FTE to a bunch of Class S heroes, deflecting hundreds of bullets from a gatling gun while weakened,wounded, and poisoned or creating flashes of light?

You skipped the part when I said that you can't significantly injure Norman.......Anyway I obviously can't show you most of those but you can have this.

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And while Peter is obviously not LS, the feat is still highly impressive.

He is also hard for bullet timers to track.

These are debatable at best, but when you include techniques like the fist of flowing water crushed rock, Garou undoubtedly has more striking strength than Goblin.

Hobgoblin was as strong as Norman and look where that got him....bloodied up and killed in seconds.

.Garou may not have the energy resistance to say he can tank a fire blast from Green Goblin but that doesn't matter when he is more than fast enough to avoid being hit with it in the first place.

I was going to counter your whole conclusion but really, this is it. It's over. Garou won't be able to even touch Norman without getting burned.

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And there is no way he can even keep dodging building sized explosions especially when those explosions blasted through the Triskellion (context mentioned earlier), something built to withstand a nuke.

Conclusion:

Here's the deal. Your advantages and strategy are great and all but Norman is a mini Hulk with the power to cause building sized explosions. I know I keep saying it and you might be tiered of hearing it but your team has very little if any defenses against that kind of attack. So basically when your team fights Norman, you would be fighting a tank that shoots missiles in all directions and never tires. No matter who Goblin faces here, he can outlast, as I have said, I do not think you guys even has what it takes to injure him, much less take him out. Meanwhile, he does, all he needs is to tag you once to burn your insides.

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#110 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#112 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#113 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18939 posts) - - Show Bio
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#115 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: Now I am happy that I went last. I think I am ready.

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#116 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18939 posts) - - Show Bio
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#117 Edited by blackspidey2099 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Hey, awesome post my dude!

And I already said this before, but I wanted to reiterate that this was a great time, that, as evidenced by the challenge each post posed, contained a very high quality of debating IMO. Can't wait to see what the voters think!

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#118 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#120 Posted by HigherPower (12414 posts) - - Show Bio

Finally open for votes huh? That was quicker than expected, I'll finish reading today.

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#121 Posted by StrongTower7 (257 posts) - - Show Bio

What a debate. Been following the posts for a while now, and this was incredible.

Based on my understanding of Valor's and Watcher's presentation of Ken and Karou, they seem like two Wolverine-like characters (in terms of durability) with a crap ton of strength and special anime attacks. Talk about formidable. But I think that 616 Spidey and Ultimate Gob are just too well-rounded, and their feats (along with scaling different facts) just made more sense compared to Ken's and Garou's. Team Marvel is within the ballpark of all of Team Anime's strengths, and then some.

I'm going to have to vote for @blackspidey2099 and @major_hellstorm.

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#122 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#123 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18939 posts) - - Show Bio
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#124 Posted by Streak619 (8358 posts) - - Show Bio

Narrowl giving this to valor and watcher. GG vs Kaneki, was really close where it came down to AOE vs healing factor in which the latter won. Only because healing factor and valor's counters weren't adequetly addressed.

The feats depicted by Kaneki right after going white were alone enough to give GG a real sprint for his money where he was demolishing an s class ghoul who had massively superior durability to even bullet tanking ghouls. MH lowballed what he would be capable of in peak form when he was already formidable after being extremely tortured for days.

Garou vs spidey is hard to judge. Very interesting and honestly the arguments were equally matched. Spidey has high tensile webbing and a unique fighting style that incorporates this and Garou has tremendous adaptibility. But i feel like TTM's strength was lowballed. To call chucking a piece of a building at supersonic speed rather effortlessly unimpressive is IMO ridiculous. TTM based on that feat alone, would replicate all of spidey's feats. Garou was ragged by his strikes, but not too a significant degree, it was just to the extent where he couldn't have a raw punching contest with TTM. Watcher had some nice arguments for webbing which were, again, not adequetly replied. Literally it ended with a question "when has he used it?" Which can't be called an argument. It seemed cheesed out because it was the last post.

Speed; oh god, this was sooo hard to judge and honestly it was practically impossible to compute all the controversial (and very convincing) arguments that everybody brought up.

But i think Kaneki was depjcted to be fastest, followed by spidey, with garou and Osborn closely following. Basically it was non factor because no one was faster by a degree sufficient to be called an 'advantage'. As such.

Phew. That was a lot, lemme know if there is a logical or a factual flaw in my reasoning tho

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#125 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18939 posts) - - Show Bio
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#126 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18939 posts) - - Show Bio

Me and Valor: 1

BS and MH: 1

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#127 Posted by Streak619 (8358 posts) - - Show Bio

Good job to all of you. This was exemplar debating, really entertaining.

I'm itching to do a 2v2 my self now

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#128 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: Thanks for the vote. Also you think Ken is faster than Garou?

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#129 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#130 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18939 posts) - - Show Bio
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#132 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: Yeah.

Just accept that Garou is the second slowest here. :P

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#133 Edited by Rac95 (5917 posts) - - Show Bio

Frankly, I give my vote to @blackspidey2099 and @major_hellstorm . The arguments from both sides were amazing, but what sold it to me was Norman Osborn. The arguments for Spidey as an enemy were good and I think based on those, that he could take on either one, but GG as a destructive AoE tank sold it to me.

Really good debate from both sides

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#134 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@rac95: Thank you for the vote.

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#135 Edited by blackspidey2099 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: Thanks for the vote! I appreciate the feedback, but I’d really like it if you could pinpoint which part of Watcher’s argument you thought I didn’t accurately reply to, so I can keep that in mind for next time! Thanks again! And yeah, this was the first time Ive ever done a 2v2 but I thought it was really interesting and a bit different from regular CaVs, which made it a great experience. @strongtower7: Thanks for the vote! @rac95: Thanks for the vote!

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#136 Posted by Darthjhawk (50 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099,@major_hellstorm, @valor_175, @watcher5000: Alright sorry for the wait guys.

Alright this debate was an intense one, and I found myself going back and forth with each post. Furthermore I have debated with all of you in the past, so I have a feel for how you all debate and that only made it more difficult for me. I want to give you guys a draw vote to be honest, but in the end I think I have to choose one team. And for me that was Team Anime in @watcher5000 & @valor_175.

When it came down to it I feel they had the overall slightly better team. Physicals is the factor that I had the hardest time judging and when it came down to it, it felt like there wasn't enough of a speed difference that led either side to have a significant advantage, but would instead be an exchange if blows and who could last longer. Strength I felt overall went to Team Comic as the feats provided by Major and BS2099 were great and I feel outmatched Team Manga. When it came to skill, Watcher sold me on Garou's skill being a solid advantage and I don't feel that UG adequately countered Kaneki's own skill. And as far as versatility I felt each team had a counter to the other and neither side really held the advantage to me. Overall this was a tough fight that came down to endurance, which is what turned the tide for me.

What sold me to Team Anime is how their characters fight when they are significantly worn down and wounded, which unless I missed Team Comic did not provide as much of or go into as much detail. I was convinced that this would be a knockdown bare-knuckle fight and the endurance, adaptation, and regeneration of Team Anime/Manga sold me on their teams victory. If I had to break it down by rounds I would have it like this:

  • Round 1: Team Comic
  • Round 2: Team Anime/Manga
  • Round 3: Team Anime/Manga

So like I said this was an amazing debate, and both sides had great arguments, with a little lowball/highball from both sides, but that's fair and to be expected in a debate like this. But Team Watcher and Valor won it for me. I hope this is an understandable vote!

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#137 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18939 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Thank you for voting and explaining why in detail.

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#138 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Thanks for the vote. Question, was my scans of Norman fighting SHIELD, Spidey and Hobgoblin not good enough in terms of endurance?

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#139 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18939 posts) - - Show Bio
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#140 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: I think we should do it by time instead of number of votes. Maybe leave this open for another week or two.

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#141 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18939 posts) - - Show Bio
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#142 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#143 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18939 posts) - - Show Bio
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#144 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#145 Edited by blackspidey2099 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: thanks for the vote and detailed breakdown. It completely slipped my mind to go into detail regarding Spidey's endurance and ability to fight at a high level.for long periods of time. It's something I should probably keep in mind for other debates. Thanks for the tip!

@watcher5000: Well, I think we should just leave it up for voting until we stop getting any more votes. But then again, I doubt there will be anyone left who would like to vote by next Saturday. So that sounds okay to me as well.

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#146 Posted by Darthjhawk (50 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: It’s not that it wasn’t good enough, but to me it didn’t really show how Norman does when he is like seriously wounded or debilitated. I know he took a lot of damage but if there were more instances like that I felt I would have been more persuaded to your side.

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#147 Edited by Darthjhawk (50 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099: No problem it was still a great debate. Glad you got something out of it.

@watcher5000: No problem.

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#148 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18939 posts) - - Show Bio
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#150 Posted by Streak619 (8358 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: @watcher5000: Now I maybe wrong about stuff in the speed section, but it's irrelevant as i said. No character possessed enough speed to be considered an advantage.

While Garou was a casual bullet timer for his impressive bullet intercepting feat. Kaneki was casually troll-blitzing Jason, who is a very casual bullet timer. Because even A rank and stronger B rank ghouls can react to bullets without too much strain.(seriously, correct me if I'm wrong) So you have a guy who was troll blitzing bullet timers effortlessly, then you have Kaneki troll blitzing that guy effortlessly. I was convinced, that in terms of raw speed he is above Garou.

As for why Garou is slower than spidey, spidey was the faster than a tracking system. Watcher, not having caught bullets is not grounds for saying he can't. Spidey is still a quite casual bullet timer who tagged bullets with webbing alone(?). Along with his spidey sense, which at this point is practically precog along with that incredible raw processing power, i gave the tiny edge to spidey.

Not sure how accurate i was on the factual aspect of the reasoning, but in my defense it is hard to keep complete track of four guys, each having intense debates with two other guys for two rounds. Please bring up any feat that I may have missed that could change my decision.