CaV Spider-Man(Blackspidey) and Green Goblin(MH) vs Ken Kaneki(Valor) and Garou(Watcher) (Watcher and Valor win)

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#51 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18754 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Cool, just a heads up though, some of your scans are too small to see. In particular the ones where he is fighting the ultimates.

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#52 Edited by blackspidey2099 (6899 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: That was an awesome ending to Round 1, my dude! BTW, you might want to fix you Ultimate Six scans since, at least for me, they're currently only showing up as thumbnail size even when I click on them.

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#53 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio
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#54 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18754 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: @blackspidey2099: @major_hellstorm:

You heroes are shit. Supported by the called mass society, I'm not going to lose to that. That's why I have to fight. Betting my life on it, in order to crush this justice. You cannot end this monster play!
You heroes are shit. Supported by the called mass society, I'm not going to lose to that. That's why I have to fight. Betting my life on it, in order to crush this justice. You cannot end this monster play!"

Like I said I think Garou is most likely to target Spider-Man so I will focus on him.

Counters

Strength

he catches a car thrown by a rampaging Hulk

Come on now, this is the Hulk we're talking about, the guy who while weakened can hold up a 150 billion ton mountain range, the guy who can shake the planet with his punches. There is no doubt in my mind that he was holding back a lot when that happened and with that it mind, I don't think it's that insanely impressive just because the hulk is the one that threw it.Hulk has been stated to always hold back, so even while he rampages through cities, no one at all dies from him. I think it's pretty clear that he was holding back to a degree that he knew Spider-Man can stop the car.

2 - he braces a private jet weighing at least 50 tons on his back

Bracing 50 tons is different from lifting 50 tons, which I feel the need to throw out there.

6 - punches Iron Man 2020 so hard that it destroys an entire building

That is a very big exaggeration of what happened.Spider-Man punched Ironman hard enough that he was sent through the building, but the building was NEVER shown to be destroyed.

That said, none of those are better than what Tank Top Master has shown he can do.

Here he picks up part of a building with one hand and throws it hundreds of feet into the air at high speeds
Here he picks up part of a building with one hand and throws it hundreds of feet into the air at high speeds

2 - Spider-Man, while weakened, one-shots an (admittedly dazed, though that shouldn't affect his durability) armored Scorpion. In this armor, Scorpion was able to tank a fall from a launching space shuttle at terminal velocity with no damage.

He doesn't look knocked out at all.

I think those feats show superior striking power than what watcher showed Tank Top Master could do.

Only one is arguably, and it doesn't really matter if Spider-Man's striking power is above Tank Top Master. Because keep in mind, Garou fought Tank Top Master at the beginning of his hero hunt, and his ability to adapt to things allows him to not only know how to counter people, but it also makes him stronger and/or faster depending on the situation.That is why once he adapted to him, he was able to easily one shot him.

Speed

While watcher did prove Garou is a casual bullet timer and moves faster than eyesight, Peter can do that as well.I think Ken Kaneki is also faster than eyesight, but not as fast as Garou, so certainly not as quick as Peter is. But please, correct me if I'm wrong.

This statement is wrong because it implies that Peter is as fast as Garou which he isn't.Garou while weakened,wounded, and poisoned was fast enough to deflect all of the bullets from Death Gatling, who was stated to have increase the cyclic rate in his gatling gun to empty his clip in an instant.

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If Spider-Man was in that situation he would have had to move out of Death Gatling's aim,because he simply isn't fast enough to deflect the bullets like Garou did.I don't think you can deny that Garou is significantly faster than Spider-Man just when you consider that.If you do though, I would like to bring up that Ben Reilly(an exact clone of Peter Parker) was barely fast enough to catch a bullet(though to be fair,he was dying, but he wasn't weakened anywhere near the extent that Garou was).

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1 - Spider-Man's reflexes operate 40 times faster than a normal human's

Which is much slower than Garou honestly.

4 - Even Dr. Doom's computerized sensors can't track his speed!

This is unquantifiable and looks to be not canon based on the way Dr.Doom is acting, so can you give tell me what comic this is from so I can check? On top of this, it's possibly outlier, since Dr.Doom has dealt with people on the cosmic scale, I find it really hard to believe Spider-Man can move faster than his systems can track.'

5 - Moves fast enough to create after-images when trying to save people

I don't think these are true afterimages, as in comics many times artists have characters make "afterimages" just to show movement.Daredevil is a really good example of this as we see him making "afterimages" in a fight with hulk

Daredevil issue 163
Daredevil issue 163

And another time in Daredevil issue 165 against Doc Ock

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Hell, here he is creating "afterimages" by just jumping off a building in the same comic.

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Unless we're to believe jumping off a building makes someone move fast enough to create afterimages, then it's fair to believe that the scan you shown was just showing Spider-Man's movement. That said,Garou was toying with a Class B hero named Glasses who was fast enough to make an afterimage,all while weakened,wounded and poisoned.

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6 - Moves so quickly in combat that even a telepath can't read his mind quick enough to adapt and stop him (this might be useful against Garou)

It won't, because Garou is faster than Spider-Man and more skilled, if anything, Spider-man will be having trouble tagging Garou here.

With his precognition, he can dodge effectively any attack, including ones at light speed.

Come on, he has gotten blitzed by people like Will'O Wisp just fine despite his spider sense warning him ahead of time.

Web of Spider-Man issue 50
Web of Spider-Man issue 50

To say he can react to light speed attacks is high ball/wank.

7 - Dodges energy blasts travelling at light speed

He's aim dodging them.

Durability

While his feat of matching Metal Bat's strength is impressive, I'm not sure how consistent that is considering the other strength feats you gave me were breaking a gun and breaking a superhuman (who has featless durability) arm.

It's not inconsistent, he had adapted to Metal Bat's strength, which is why at first Metal Bat was no selling Garou's attacks but later he got strong enough to beat him in their fight.

And he has other strength feats better than one shotting Death Gatling although not as good as the metal bat showing.

Here he hits Saitama hard enough that he shatters the concrete under him while holding back.

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And another strength feat is him shatter the ground under him by jumping down

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Again while not as good as deflecting attacks from metal bat, it isn't outlier, so there is no reason to disregard that showing either.

But just in case you guys don't think that's enough, he was also strong enough to kill Senior Centipede(a demon level threat monster).

And FYI the person who they're talking about that removed their limiter is Saitama and not Garou.Garou's limits break some time after this though.
And FYI the person who they're talking about that removed their limiter is Saitama and not Garou.Garou's limits break some time after this though.

So, yeah, by no means is Garou being outclassed when it comes to strength, be it by Spider-Man or Green Goblin.

1 - Spider-Man is unaffected by punches from nonpowered people - in fact, the person punching him breaks his hands!

2 - an exhausted teenage Spider-Man rests by letting enemies punch him

Good thing Garou isn't a normal human,otherwise this would mean something.

4 - Spider-Man is fine after being hit through a concrete wall by Morlun

He was not fine,he looks like he is pretty damaged. Not nearly enough to slow him down significantly but it's not like he no-sold it.

5 - Spider-Man barely notices being hit so hard that stone and metal crumble underneath him when he is being suffocated

Barely notices?He was hit so hard he not only says that his heads spinning and he is possibly delirious since he calls his mom(someone who never truly met as I recall).It's a decent feat, but he isn't tanking that by any means.

6 - Spider-Man survives being hit by an angry Ms Marvel, Thing, and even an Iron Fist from Iron Fist (they think he is an imposter)

This was during the spider island event, which is when pretty much everyone had spider-powers.So they thought he he was a random spider-powered new york citizen, I have no doubt that they're holding back tremendously.

Skill

Spider-Man is still a very skilled fighter, with combat training from the likes of Captain America and Shang-Chi.

I feel like this kinda loses meaning, when you realize that Garou is much more skilled than Steve or Shang-Chi.

While he isn't close to Garou, and probably worse than Kaneki as well, this means he won't be left completely in the dusk.

He will, he got basic martial arts training from Cap and learned some stuff from Shang-Chi(meaning he isn't as skilled as either) and like I said, I'd put Garou above them in skill.And it isn't even like Spider-Man consistently uses his skill in fights, so if he tries using it here he will be hilariously outskilled by Garou.

1-3 - uses Captain America's training to learn to focus his chi, watch the world slow down around him, and even catch bullets (well, he misses one of them)

This right here proves my point, I can't see him replicating Garou's feat effortlessly against Golden Ball,let alone his feat with Death Gatling at his best.Garou while weakened had to deflect all the bullets from his gatling gun till his clip ran out, while Spider-Man at his best failed to catch two bullets.

5 & 6 - easily defeats multiple spider-powered enemies with his training, despite the fact that Peter doesn't have spider sense and they do

He was also likely much faster than them, since just having spider powers doesn't make you spider-man level(just look at miles morales).

7 - easily defeats an amped Kaine (a clone who is much stronger and more durable than Peter, and had prepared for Peter's Way of the Spider techniques) by using his Way of the Spider training in conjunction with his newly returned spider sense.

He didn't defeat him per say, just pushed him into that stuff that made him turn back to his human self.It's not like he knocked him out or incapacitated him.

Gear

Spider-Man's webbing is one of the most complex chemicals created in Marvel, with very few people being able to reproduce it. In this battle, it's amazing tensile strength and versatility will mean Ken Kaneki and Garou will need to avoid it as best they can, since I'm not confident they can break through a thick enough coating.

Not to much I have to say about the webbing however, I although I am confident Garou could break it, he doesn't have to because his flowing water, crushed rock technique can redirect attacks(so he could send it back at spider-man). Or he could,you know, just dodge it since he is more than fast enough to do that.

3 - Spider-Man's webs can block some of Dr. Strange's magic attacks

That is one of the most unquantifiable feats I have ever seen.But even if it could be, Dr.Strange was only trying to defend himself, not hurt Spider-Man, so he was holding back.

Spider-Man's Spider-Tracers are extremely impressive piece of technology which are useful since he can accurately track people with them. I'm not sure if Garou and/or Kaneki use stealth on occasion, but since Kaneki's ghost powers seem like they could be used for stealth in some way, the spider tracers (plus his spider sense as I already mentioned) should take care of that.

Even if Garou did use stealth, he would have to be tagged with a spider-tracer for them to even matter.

In this armor, as I will show below, Spider-Man is completely unaffected by a hail of automatic gunfire, a direct hit by an RPG, and is barely hurt by multiple sniper bullets. He also has magnetic webbing which can block any radio signals, but I'm not sure if that will be useful in this fight.

This should be good enough to make him nearly impervious to Ken Kaneki and Garou's attacks, at least until I see more (and better) feats from them.

I doubt he will be tanking attacks from Garou, even with the suit.

Addressing your summary

I think this shows Peter is likely stronger, more durable, and quicker than both Ken Kaneki and Garou, from my limited knowledge of the latter two

You're making it seem like Garou is simply outclassed by Spider-Man, which even if that was the case it would only guarantee that Garou will grow from this fight with Spider-Man and surpass him.

Here it's stated that fighting a superior opponent allows Garou to grow even further
Here it's stated that fighting a superior opponent allows Garou to grow even further

That said I disagree.

Peter is likely stronger

Not really, even if we don't use his feat against Metal Bat then he still hits harder than spider-man due to his fist of flowing water,crushed rock move.

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Here Tank Top Master states that his move returned his power back at him twofold,meaning even if spider-man is stronger Garou can still hit 2x harder than him due to that move.

more durable,

Who is more durable doesn't really matter in a fight, what matters is if Garou can hurt Spider-Man with his attacks(which he can without a doubt) and tank punches from Spider-Man(yes, he can).

and quicker than both Ken Kaneki and Garou,

Not even close, Garou has a significant edge in speed as far as I'm concerned.

Considering Peter has knowledge of their abilities (probably more knowledge than I currently have, LOL)

Basic knowledge, just like Garou and Ken kaneki have on your team.

I think Peter would likely resist any attempts to start a one-on-one battle, and rather spam webbing from above (similar to how he would behave if he was fighting alongside someone like Hulk).

I find it kind of questionable for you to say that when you said Spider-Man doesn't do that in character, unless he is under duress in another CaV(quite recently I might add).That said I doubt he will have much choice if Garou starting hunting right off the bat.

I will leave Major_hellstorm to elaborate on Ultimate Green Goblin, but since both Spider-Man's webs and armor are extremely fire resistant, Osborn can act as both a tank as well as coat the battle field in fire, making it hard for Kaneki and Garou to fight back

Garou won't even have to engage Ultimate Green Goblin till he is done with Spider-Man,since Ken Kaneki's job here is mostly to hold off Goblin till Garou is done(or beat him, whichever happens first).If Garou finishes with Spider-Man,then it would allow him to help Ken Kaneki to beat Goblin.

Our team's advantages

I would like to mention our teams advantages, number one being speed. Spider-Man is inferior to Garou in speed, and Goblin is the slowest person in the match.This means your team will be having trouble tagging their opponents moreso than Garou and Ken Kaneki will.

The second thing is teamwork,neither of our teams have perfect teamwork but I think Garou and Ken will work together better than Spider-Man and Goblin will.That's because Goblin is literally insane

No Caption Provided

Which right there would make it hard for him to work with anyone, but if that's not enough he hates his world's spider-man.Sure, 616 Spider-Man looks different from 1610 due to his armor in this match, but regardless he will be similar enough that Goblin should probably notice.This(to me at least) means your team won't be able to go for big strategies like your team will probably need to win this because of Green Goblin's unreliability, or at the very least this will make things more difficult.

Third is that our team has much more skill than you guys team, Garou alone is the most skilled person in this match, adding in Ken Kaneki(who is pretty skilled in his own right from what I have seen) just means that this is an undebatable edge Garou and Ken have over Spider-Man and Green Goblin.

Summary

Garou is much faster than Spider-Man,stronger, far more skilled, and is durable enough to tank punches from Peter. On top of this, he will be predicting his movements, so Peter will not only be having trouble tagging Garou, but dodging his attacks.If however, I'm wrong about Garou being physically more powerful than Spider-Man, it still won't change anything.As Garou is powerful enough to last till he adapts to Spider-Man and get the better of him.Once Garou is done with Spider-Man he is free to help Ken Kaneki with Ultimate Green Goblin.

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#55 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6899 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: Wow, nice post! Looks like I'm up next, so I'm going to try and get my post up by Tuesday/Wednesday (though there's a chance I can reply tonight).

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#56 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18754 posts) - - Show Bio
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#58 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6899 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2: Rebuttals/Counters + Strategy

"Have no fear! Spidey is here!" - Spider-Man

Counters

Spider-Man's Strength vs Garou's and Kaneki's Durability

So first, let me just quickly go through @watcher5000's counters.

Come on now, this is the Hulk we're talking about, the guy who while weakened can hold up a 150 billion ton mountain range, the guy who can shake the planet with his punches. There is no doubt in my mind that he was holding back a lot when that happened and with that it mind, I don't think it's that insanely impressive just because the hulk is the one that threw it.Hulk has been stated to always hold back, so even while he rampages through cities, no one at all dies from him. I think it's pretty clear that he was holding back to a degree that he knew Spider-Man can stop the car.

Fair enough. It is well established that Hulk holds back a ton.

Bracing 50 tons is different from lifting 50 tons, which I feel the need to throw out there.

According to Google, bracing is just "pressing firmly against something to stay balanced". So it looks like I used the wrong word there to describe the scan. What is actually happening is Peter uses his body in place of the landing strut, so he did have to lift the equivalent force of the crashing jet, to make sure it stopped safely.

That is a very big exaggeration of what happened.Spider-Man punched Ironman hard enough that he was sent through the building, but the building was NEVER shown to be destroyed.

No Caption Provided

It's pretty clear the building is falling down (which is why there is an explosion, and the right part of the building is tilting over). You could argue that the hit only caused a part of the building to break though, I guess.

That said, none of those are better than what Tank Top Master has shown he can do.

Here he picks up part of a building with one hand and throws it hundreds of feet into the air at high speeds
Here he picks up part of a building with one hand and throws it hundreds of feet into the air at high speeds

Cute. But Peter can still do better. Assuming Tank Top Master is around human size, that piece of the building is only about 3 times his height. And it clearly has some holes, so it's hollow in some places. (Not to mention the fact we have no idea how high it goes, so I can't just assume it went hundreds of feet into the air) Here, Peter pulls down an entire building on top of Venom (which is possibly around 6 times Peter's height):

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And here, Peter lifts up part of a warehouse and shakes it around to scare some baddies:

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To be fair, Peter was pretty pissed off in both those instances. But it does show that he can output enough power to match/beat Tank Top Master's if he needs to.

[Scorpion] doesn't look knocked out at all.

Scorpion is fast enough to worry Spider-Man 2099. Unless you think he just sat there while Peter wrapped him in a web cocoon, he must have been knocked out. Besides, the Scorpion's eyes don't glow by themselves, so it must be due to the armor - meaning the fact they are glowing has no bearing on his state of consciousness. Anyways, to back up this strength feats, here is another instance where Peter broke this armor of the Scorpion's:

No Caption Provided

So Peter can clearly output enough power to outmatch even falling 7 miles at terminal velocity speeds.

Only one is arguably, and it doesn't really matter if Spider-Man's striking power is above Tank Top Master. Because keep in mind, Garou fought Tank Top Master at the beginning of his hero hunt, and his ability to adapt to things allows him to not only know how to counter people, but it also makes him stronger and/or faster depending on the situation.That is why once he adapted to him, he was able to easily one shot him.

The only feats you showed for Tank Top Master is that he could hit hard enough to cause the ground underneath to shatter and shake (in your intro) and that he could throw a large piece of debris.

I've already shown Peter has strength feats that outshine TTM's rock throwing feat, and as for Tank Top Master's "ground pound" feat, Peter's got some experience creating craters in the ground as well. Here we see Peter striking Venom hard enough to create huge craters in the ground and causing nearby cars to lift into the air, and we see Peter striking the ground near Punisher to knock him off balance.

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As for Garou's adaption abilities, there's nothing saying he becomes stronger or faster depending on the situation, at least from what you posted. The closest is that scan where it says "Only when fighting a stronger opponent who corners him, he can find his true strength and grow", but that seems more like he generally improves, rather than gaining improved physical attributes. And even if he does gain improved physical attributes, there's nothing suggesting he can improve his physical attributes to be above Spider-Man, since he hasn't done so before. We can't just assume he will be able to without feats to back it up - that's getting close to the NLF fallacy IMO. One-shotting Tank Top Master isn't very impressive for now, since you haven't shown any durability feats for TTM to back up that claim. And it doesn't have anything to do with Garou's durability, so there's absolutely zero proof to show Garou's adaptation can increase his durability.

The best durability feat you showed for him was that he can take TTM's hits, but clearly they were hurting him a ton. Since I've shown Peter is stronger than TTM, and likely quicker too (since you showed no speed feats for TTM), Garou will be taking more, even stronger, hits from Peter. This should really damage him.

As for Ken Kaneki, @valor_175 didn't show any durability feats for him, rather focusing on his regeneration. So, I think we can take for a given that Peter should be able to hurt him, though whether he can go through the healing factor to inflict permanent damage remains to be seen. For now, I'll just show that Peter (being possessed by Doc Ock) was able to knock out Deadpool in just 2 hits, and we all know Wade has a pretty impressive healing factor as well.

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The takeaway from this section is that Peter is strong enough to really hurt both Garou and Kaneki should he so choose. I think I've proven that Peter is at least on par with, if not stronger than Tank Top Master, and seeing how badly hurt Garou was from just a couple hits by Tank Top Master, Peter should be able to replicate a similar amount of damage.

Spider-Man's Speed vs Garou's and Kaneki's Speed

Okay, I'll also start here with countering @watcher5000's points first.

This statement is wrong because it implies that Peter is as fast as Garou which he isn't.Garou while weakened,wounded, and poisoned was fast enough to deflect all of the bullets from Death Gatling, who was stated to have increase the cyclic rate in his gatling gun to empty his clip in an instant.

If Spider-Man was in that situation he would have had to move out of Death Gatling's aim,because he simply isn't fast enough to deflect the bullets like Garou did.I don't think you can deny that Garou is significantly faster than Spider-Man just when you consider that.If you do though, I would like to bring up that Ben Reilly(an exact clone of Peter Parker) was barely fast enough to catch a bullet(though to be fair,he was dying, but he wasn't weakened anywhere near the extent that Garou was).

This right here proves my point, I can't see him replicating Garou's feat effortlessly against Golden Ball,let alone his feat with Death Gatling at his best.Garou while weakened had to deflect all the bullets from his gatling gun till his clip ran out, while Spider-Man at his best failed to catch two bullets.

Just because Spider-Man and Ben Reilly can't consistently catch bullets doesn't mean they aren't quick enough to do so. Remember, there is absolutely no need for Peter to catch a bullet, since it would just go right through him anyway - just like if he had been shot. That's why catching/deflecting bullets is just as much about having the skill to do so in a way that you're not just getting shot, as it is about being able to perceive the bullet moving.

As for the Ben Reilly feat, I'm not sure why you are saying he was barely fast enough to catch the bullet, since there's nothing showing that he struggled with it, except him saying he didn't know if he could. Spider-Man wasn't able to catch both bullets because he was afflicted with a mystical disease that was leading to his death (this was the prelude of The Other) - basically, his powers were wonky at times, he was having hallucinations, etc.

Anyways, Peter has the feats to show he can probably at least perceive the bullets slow enough to replicate the feat, though he can't deflect them himself due to not being skilled enough.

1 - Spider-Man can easily dodge a bullet, even after waiting for it to move close to him (this proves he doesn't just aim dodge)

2 - Spider-Man's spider sense effectively freezes time for him, to the point he can perceive the actual bullet as it settles into the chamber and then gets shot out

3 - Peter's reaction time is at least at microsecond levels. According to the second answer here, a tank fires bullets at around 1700 m/s (which should be quicker than a Gatling gun - even though you said it was modified so it's rate of fire increased, that doesn't mean the muzzle velocity of the bullets increased as well). Assuming Garou was about 3 meters from the guy, it would take each bullet about 2 milliseconds to travel that distance (if Garou is 2 meters away, it's about 1 millisecond). Given Peter's microsecond reaction time, he should be able to react to 1000 bullets from 2 meters away, and 2000 bullets from 3 meters away. While I doubt Peter could deflect all 1000/2000 of those even if he had the skill, it just goes to show he could definitely deflect a number closer to what's shown in the scan, if he knew how.

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And while this isn't Peter himself, when Hercules was depowered and got Spider-Man's powers during Spider-Island, he was easily able to perceive and deflect bullets with a sword.

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Sure, Hercules is more skilled than Peter, but he isn't any quicker, since he just had Peter's powers (none of his own), as given by Jackal's bedbugs.

This is unquantifiable and looks to be not canon based on the way Dr.Doom is acting, so can you give tell me what comic this is from so I can check? On top of this, it's possibly outlier, since Dr.Doom has dealt with people on the cosmic scale, I find it really hard to believe Spider-Man can move faster than his systems can track.'

Spider-Man/Human Torch 1 is the issue. It's canon. And Peter has moved quicker than targeting computers can track before as well, so I doubt it is an outlier.

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I don't think these are true afterimages, as in comics many times artists have characters make "afterimages" just to show movement.Daredevil is a really good example of this as we see him making "afterimages" in a fight with hulk

You can't just say they aren't "true" after images if you don't even say what you mean by that. Spider-Man makes after images all the time, for example:

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I'm not sure what the point of comparing Peter to Daredevil is, since even if comic artists show "fake" after images for Daredevil, that doesn't mean Peter's are also fake. Peter is significantly quicker than Matt (who is a bullet timer himself). In fact, peak humans like Matt and Paladin can barely even perceive his movements.

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I think we all know that Matt himself is a bullet timer, as we see here and here. In fact, Matt himself can deflect bullets (though not to the same extent as Garou), like so. I think that's the best proof that bullet deflection isn't quite as special as you make it out to be.

Come on, he has gotten blitzed by people like Will'O Wisp just fine despite his spider sense warning him ahead of time. To say he can react to light speed attacks is high ball/wank. He's aim dodging them.

The difference between Will O'The Wisp and a normal blast at light speed is that Will O'The Wisp can follow Peter around at light speed, which Peter obviously can't outrun. A light blast just needs to be dodged once.

And Peter dodges lasers and light speed attacks all the time.

For example,

1 - even Ock can dodge a few of Lightmaster's light attacks in Peter's body, despite being extremely inexperienced

2 - Spider-Man easily dodges Lightmaster's attacks

3 - more laser dodging

4 - Spider-Man easily dodges repulsors while ranting (and yes, repulsors are light speed, like so and like so)

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So I don't think it is "wank", lol, since Peter does it all the time. Sure, he can't dodge them without his Spider Sense to warn him before they actually are fired, since he can't move fast enough to dodge them after they are fired, but Spider Sense is one of Peter's powers.

That's why I think Peter is still quicker than Garou, especially with his spider sense to guide him. Garou hasn't really dodged anything quicker than bullets.

And while Kaneki being able to blitz bullet timers is impressive, Peter did the same to Daredevil in the scan I showed above. So, Peter should be quicker than Kaneki as well.

Spider-Man's Durability vs Garou's and Kaneki's Strength

Alright, starting with counters first here as well....

It's not inconsistent, he had adapted to Metal Bat's strength, which is why at first Metal Bat was no selling Garou's attacks but later he got strong enough to beat him in their fight.

And he has other strength feats better than one shotting Death Gatling although not as good as the metal bat showing.

Here he hits Saitama hard enough that he shatters the concrete under him while holding back.

And another strength feat is him shatter the ground under him by jumping down

Again while not as good as deflecting attacks from metal bat, it isn't outlier, so there is no reason to disregard that showing either.

I really don't think causing a little crater in the ground is comparable to matching strength with someone who can damage a building with the force of his blows. Either way, Spider-Man has better strength feats than just hitting the ground hard enough to make a small crack in a nearby building, so Garou is not as strong as Peter.

He was not fine,he looks like he is pretty damaged. Not nearly enough to slow him down significantly but it's not like he no-sold it.

He doesn't make any exclamation of pain, other than to say Morlun hit him really hard, and is back into the fight immediately. So he was definitely completely fine after that. I never said he no-sold it, though.

Barely notices?He was hit so hard he not only says that his heads spinning and he is possibly delirious since he calls his mom(someone who never truly met as I recall).It's a decent feat, but he isn't tanking that by any means.

Spider-Man says his head is spinning since he has no air (aka. he is being suffocated). He doesn't mention the actual force of being hit even once. And that was a weird time in Spider-Man history, he was living with robots who were acting as his parents (and he thought they really were his parents). So no, lol, he wasn't delirious.

This was during the spider island event, which is when pretty much everyone had spider-powers.So they thought he he was a random spider-powered new york citizen, I have no doubt that they're holding back tremendously.

I'm not sure if they were, since they were fighting off spider-power citizens who were trying to steal stuff. And Ms. Marvel was pissed since Peter tried to touch her (she thought he was being pervy).

Anyways, since Garou's best feats are of cracking concrete/stone, and Peter has feats that show his body can resist blunt force impact better than materials like concrete and steel, Peter should have no problem taking some of Garou's attacks. This is shown by the feats where Peter's body can take being punched by Morlun, but a concrete wall behind him shatters, and Peter's body can take being punched by Griffin, but 3 cars behind him get totally wrecked. Furthermore,

1 & 2 - Spider-Man quickly recovers from falling from so high it causes an explosion and creates a huge crater

3 - Spider-Man is survives (and recovers almost instantaneously) from Shaker's vibrations which can shatter lead, steel, granite, stone, and brick

4 - Spider-Man is barely even hurt after being kicked by Kangaroo, who can kick through walls ten feet thick

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I don't think Garou has shown he can even punch through metals like steel, and do much damage to rock/concrete other than make those small craters.

And as I showed earlier, in his armor Peter can no-sell a point blank RPG hit, as well as automatic gunfire. He is barely affected by sniper fire as well. Nothing you've shown me from Garou shows that he can output that kind of power.

Here Tank Top Master states that his move returned his power back at him twofold,meaning even if spider-man is stronger Garou can still hit 2x harder than him due to that move.

First of all, it seems more like Tank Top Master is saying Garou redirected his own hit back at him, not that Garou can punch that hard. Secondly, this is just a character statement, not a quantifiable feat. How would Tank Top Master measure Garou's strength in terms of his own? The only feat here is that Garou could knock out TTM, but since you've given no durability feats for TTM, that's not really a good strength feat either.

And just to show how unreliable statements can be, here are Thor and Hulk saying Spider-Man is strong enough to slightly budge them both when they were holding him (Hulk says he thinks he felt Spider-Man move).

Anyways, neither Tank Top Master, nor Metal Bat, nor Garou have shown attack power exceeding a point blank shot from a rocket launcher. And Spider-Man no-sold a rocket launcher in his armor (which, according to Wikipedia, are used to destroy tanks). So how will Garou knock Peter out?

what matters is if Garou can hurt Spider-Man with his attacks(which he can without a doubt)

I think I've shown he won't really be able to do any significant damage.

On the other hand, it seems like Ken Kaneki is a bit more of a threat here, if he is able to casually rip through ghouls stronger than steel and throw people through concrete. The durability feats up there for Peter show he should be able to shake off those attacks quite easily, but they may do more damage than Garou's. If Kaneki is focusing on Goblin as your strategy suggests though, this shouldn't be much of an issue.

Skill Counters

I'm just going to counter a couple of watcher's points here.

I feel like this kinda loses meaning, when you realize that Garou is much more skilled than Steve or Shang-Chi.

Oh yeah, definitely, but he might still be more skilled than the people Garou has fought before (such as Tank Top Master - whose style of fighting, according to the wiki, consists of hitting the ground really hard, and also charging at people). So it isn't for nothing.

He was also likely much faster than them, since just having spider powers doesn't make you spider-man level(just look at miles morales).

Well, they got powers from the Jackal, which should be exact copies of Peter's own (just like Ben Reilly). However, it's fine if you disagree, since it makes Peter's speed even more impressive if you think Hercules' speed in Spider-Island wasn't even to Peter's level.

Webbing

I just wanted to make some counters here, as well as show why the webs should trap, or at least hinder, these two.

Not to much I have to say about the webbing however, I although I am confident Garou could break it, he doesn't have to because his flowing water, crushed rock technique can redirect attacks(so he could send it back at spider-man).

The webs can hold up a helicopter and trip Goliath. Garou isn't breaking outta them that easily, especially since his strength feats as of now are quite unremarkable other than the one character statement of him being able to hit twice as hard as Tank Top Master.

I also can't imagine how Garou could just redirect webbing, considering it will stick to him. He can't magically make it just bounce off...

1 - webbing sticks to Sabertooth's face

2&3 - Webbing is so sticky that it stays attached to the concrete even though Peter punches the guy hard enough that he goes flying, so the concrete gets ripped before the webs do.

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Or he could,you know, just dodge it since he is more than fast enough to do that.

Fair enough, unless Peter starts shooting out wider nets of webbing. I mean, look at the area he can cover with his web-shooters in a short period of time (this specific instance is Ock using the web-shooters):

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Even if Garou did use stealth, he would have to be tagged with a spider-tracer for them to even matter.

True, it will be hard to tag Garou with a spider-tracer. But since he doesn't use stealth, it doesn't matter either way.

I won't say Ken Kaneki can't break through the webs since he can casually break through the ghoul's skin which is stronger than steel. However, at the very least, they should still be able to hinder him and slow him down, since he won't be able to just barrel through them the way someone like Hulk might. The webs should definitely be able to trap Garou though, at least temporarily.

Overall, I think Spider-Man is still more than capable of significantly hurting either Ken Kaneki or Garou, and can definitely tank some of their attacks with his armor on. He is also fast enough to be able to keep up with them, and while I think I've proved he is outright quicker than both, he is on a similar level at bare minimum. His webs will also be a huge hindrance to both opponents, since he can quickly spread them over large distances and since neither Garou nor Ken Kaneki will be able to easily break through them.

Strategy

Okay, I'm sticking with my earlier strategy, where Peter attacks mostly with webbing, and also using hit-and-run attacks. In the meantime, Goblin can be the tank and powerhouse, shooting fire all over the place like the madman he is. Due to Kaneki and Garou not having shown any fire resistance feats yet, this should definitely affect their ability to fight and possibly even hurt them by itself, if they get caught in fire. Peter and his webs should be fine, as I showed in my first post.

Basic knowledge, just like Garou and Ken kaneki have on your team.

So he should know their basic stats, in that case.

I find it kind of questionable for you to say that when you said Spider-Man doesn't do that in character, unless he is under duress in another CaV(quite recently I might add).That said I doubt he will have much choice if Garou starting hunting right off the bat.

I think I know which CaV that was, but the main difference between the two situations is that here, Peter is in a team, fighting another team, rather than being in a one-on-one battle (like all my other CaVs). Peter fights very differently against teams. Instead of brawling, he usually attacks them all at the same time, jumping from person to person and using a lot more webs. For example, there's this famous incident:

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Additionally, he knows that Garou and Kaneki are extremely quick, so it is a simple conclusion for him to realize that slowing them down with webs is the easiest solution. He also knows Osborn has fire attacks, so while he isn't a strategist, a simple strategy like webbing them up and hitting them around while Osborn shoots fire isn't too hard for him to come up with.

Garou won't even have to engage Ultimate Green Goblin till he is done with Spider-Man,since Ken Kaneki's job here is mostly to hold off Goblin till Garou is done(or beat him, whichever happens first).If Garou finishes with Spider-Man,then it would allow him to help Ken Kaneki to beat Goblin.

I don't think Garou will have a choice if Goblin explodes into fire. Also, you haven't shown any character justification for why Garou would follow a strategy of attacking Spider-Man - in fact, he seems like he likes trying to challenge the more intimidating looking opponent, who, in this case, is certainly Goblin with his monstrous appearance.

Teamwork

While it is true that Peter and Osborn wouldn't work well together if they had to trust each other or anything, the strategy outlined above is so simple that there is literally zero teamwork needed to pull it off. Just have Goblin go rampaging with fire, and Peter can just fight like normal, adjusting a bit more towards web attacks and using his durability advantage. In this battle, our team has both physical powerhouses, so less strategy is required. We also have the advantage of ranged attacks (webs and fire), so it will be your team who has to get in close to strike. That should combine well with our simple strategy to further ruin things for your team - if you guys stay far away, you can be picked off by fireballs and webbing, but if you get close, you are more in danger from Goblin's giant fire explosions, for example. There's no retreat option for you.

The other significant advantage is that Peter may be willing to go morals off on Kaneki at least, and possibly even Garou, since they aren't really human. For example, here Peter is willing to kill an undead zombie creature, since "he can't kill what's already dead".

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A half-ghoul like Ken Kaneki should fit that description as well.

Conclusion

Peter and Osborn are smart enough to use their basic knowledge and figure out they have the advantage of ranged attacks, as well as durability and strength. This will lead to them coming up with the strategy of using fire and webs to make it much harder for either Garou or Kaneki to move around and dodge attacks in the battlefield. If any of the two does try to attack Peter directly, Peter is more than durable enough to shrug off any hits he takes, as well as dish out some serious damage in melee range. Furthermore, I have shown that Peter is quick enough to keep up with both Garou and Kaneki, and possibly even outpace them. Since there is no proof Garou's adaptation will work on someone as powerful as Spider-Man, Peter should be able to take out Garou even if he does get targeted, since Garou's powers aren't quite up to par without being able to copy Spidey's over. Spider-Man can also beat Ken Kaneki in combat by virtue of being stronger, quicker, and more durable, but he may not be able to fully KO him without Goblin's help, due to the healing factor he has. Overall, this should mean Peter can handle any one of your team, and if Peter and Goblin work as a team, their advantages should overcome any edges that Garou and Kaneki have - giving them the victory here.

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#59 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6899 posts) - - Show Bio
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#60 Posted by ValorKnight (12695 posts) - - Show Bio
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#61 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio
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#62 Posted by ValorKnight (12695 posts) - - Show Bio
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#63 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: Cool. Sadly I might slow down you guys a bit. It's exam week for me so it might take a while till I next post.

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#64 Edited by ValorKnight (12695 posts) - - Show Bio

Rebuttals/Counters I

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Strength & Durability

Now, I'll be addressing MH's post first, as UG is who I believe Ken is the most suited to fight. For starters-

This is much more impressive to me than throwing someone through concrete and one shoting Tank Fundoshi (unless he is more durable than he looks).

I don't know how clear I was in my opener, but Ken was literally starving and injured when he performed the feat you're calling "throwing someone through concrete" (he slammed him all the way through a building). I'm not going to say that Ken has a feat that trumps Norman's Treskelion showing, but he doesn't necessarily need one, as I'll be explaining later on). In fact, Ken's building feat against Ayato is a low-end in comparison to his other feats of strength. For example, before regaining his memories in :re, Ken blocked an attack from Seidou Takizawa:

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What makes this impressive is the fact that Takizawa was going one-on-one with Kotarou Amon, another Ghoul who was manhandling people that would fodderize P1 Ken.

As for BS's post, those are some very impressive strength feats for Peter. However, that will simply not be enough to overwhelm Ken's incredible durability (not to mention his regeneration). To prove that I'm not just talking out my ass, Ken has tanked hits from Eto Yoshimura, who can do this:

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The compactor that Eto is destroying in this scan is one used to chop up Ghouls. This means, obviously, that the metals would need to be far more durable than steel, yet Eto trashed it effortlessly. What's more is that the hits Ken took from her only fractured his skull (and gave him a protagonist monologue, but that's not important), to which he healed from directly after. Now then, onto Ken's actual regeneration. As I didn't cover this as much as I should have in my opener, you both seem to have a lackluster impression of Ken's regenerative abilities; you won't after this though. To start, here we see Ken get impaled by Arima's Quinque, only to heal moments later:

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In this same fight, Ken was literally cut to pieces, only to completely heal seconds later:

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I skipped his inner monologue that happened in between, but in real time it only took a few seconds (as evidenced by the fact that Arima had only been able to walk a couple of feet towards Ken). With all of this said, I think it's safe to say that neither Peter nor Norman's attacks will be able to put Ken down for good, that is if the latter can even hit him. As for Ken's own ability to hurt them, I'll be going into that next. MH-

As he is regularly just taking beatings, for example here he is taking a beating from a pissed off Miles however it just pisses him off.

This is really unimpressive, as Miles<<Ultimate Peter<<616 Peter. This attack even drew blood from Norman, so unless this is just a very low showing, Ken should be able to shred him easily. Speaking of shredding, Ken's Kagune is able to cut through Quinque that are far harder than steel (as I already presented in my opener), so neither Peter nor Norman will be safe without sufficient cutting resistance feats. Along with it's serious cutting power, Ken's Kagune is also the most versatile form of attack in this match, as Ken is capable of shaping it to his very will:

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In the first scan we see Eto explaining it, and in the second we see Ken actually utilizing it. Ken happens to have a rather morbid imagination though, so you'll see more armor, claws, and tails than you will, say, wings. This isn't a hinderance, however, as the armor that he can create with his Kagune is quite durable (capable of taking hits from a weapon made of the same material):

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The man wielding the Quinque was Kishou Arima. He's a guy that has killed Ghouls with an umbrella, yet even with a proper Quinque he wasn't even able to scratch Ken's armor. Ken can also create diversions with his Kagune, such as nets or cages:

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As you can see, Ken can also run them through the ground or even make them speak to confuse his opponents. I think I remember one of you mentioning your team's reach advantage, which is valid, but Ken has some impressive range of his own:

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Lastly, your team's most impressive durability feats are blunt force only, so there is no evidence to say that Ken won't slice right through them, which brings me to our next section: speed and skill.

Speed & Skill

Speed is something that Ken himself accels at, as evidenced by his fight with Arima, someone who blitzes bullet-timing Ghouls on a daily basis. That wasn't just a one-time deal though, as he has also dodged attacks from V Agents (who have been stated to equal Arima in speed):

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He has also been able to take on groups of them by himself:

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In skill, Ken is definitely not a pushover, and has read hundreds of books on the subject and even tangled with someone who had actually written books on martial arts:

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His skill and speed almost guarantees that he won't be hit by webs or fireballs, if the former does hit, his Kagune is sharp enough to cut right through them. For his resistance to fire, a Ghoul far weaker than his current self tanked fire that was over 4000 degrees Celsius (and seeing as how their biology was identical, feats of this kind can be shared). For now, I'll be moving on to my strategy.

Current Strategy

With Garou's skill advantage and Ken's cutting, slicing and piercing advantage, I feel that our team has a massive lead going into this fight. For one, neither member of your team can stop Ken from chopping them up, and they are to feral or unskilled to go against the aforementioned Garou in close quarters combat. Nothing in your team's arsenal suggests that they would last very long if we decided with simply bum rushing them, nor do they have the necessary stats to push us back or adequately overwhelm us.

@blackspidey2099:@major_hellstorm:@watcher5000: I'm done (quicker than I'd thought too)!

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#65 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: I didn't get the tag. Let me see if I can have something up soon.

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#66 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6899 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: haha, nice one! At this rate we’re going to be finished in no time time, lol!

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#67 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099: @valor_175: @watcher5000: Here is my post. Tell me if I missed something please, I kinda sped through everything.

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Counters:

Now, I'll be addressing MH's post first, as UG is who I believe Ken is the most suited to fight. For starters-

Fine by me.

I don't know how clear I was in my opener, but Ken was literally starving and injured when he performed the feat you're calling "throwing someone through concrete" (he slammed him all the way through a building).

You did say he went through 10 days of torture. But I still do not find that as impressive. Also I have a question, why didn't his regen heal him?

I'm not going to say that Ken has a feat that trumps Norman's Treskelion showing, but he doesn't necessarily need one, as I'll be explaining later on). In fact, Ken's building feat against Ayato is a low-end in comparison to his other feats of strength. For example, before regaining his memories in :re, Ken blocked an attack from Seidou Takizawa:

What makes this impressive is the fact that Takizawa was going one-on-one with Kotarou Amon, another Ghoul who was manhandling people that would fodderize P1 Ken.

Got any tangible strength feats for the guy?

As for BS's post, those are some very impressive strength feats for Peter. However, that will simply not be enough to overwhelm Ken's incredible durability (not to mention his regeneration). To prove that I'm not just talking out my ass, Ken has tanked hits from Eto Yoshimura, who can do this:

As it has been decided that Norman will likely fight Ken. I will counter this even though you addressed Black Spidey.

The compactor that Eto is destroying in this scan is one used to chop up Ghouls. This means, obviously, that the metals would need to be far more durable than steel, yet Eto trashed it effortlessly.

So kinda like the walls of the Treskelion but weaker?

What's more is that the hits Ken took from her only fractured his skull (and gave him a protagonist monologue, but that's not important),

Which means a single blow from Ult Green Goblin would fracture Ken's bones unless you are holding back on Eto's feats.

to which he healed from directly after. Now then, onto Ken's actual regeneration. As I didn't cover this as much as I should have in my opener, you both seem to have a lackluster impression of Ken's regenerative abilities; you won't after this though. To start, here we see Ken get impaled by Arima's Quinque, only to heal moments later:

In this same fight, Ken was literally cut to pieces, only to completely heal seconds later:

Those are all well and good. But as long as he can get KO'd he well be defeated. Norman has tanked damage that Ken would have to heal from.

This is really unimpressive, as Miles<<Ultimate Peter<<616 Peter. This attack even drew blood from Norman, so unless this is just a very low showing, Ken should be able to shred him easily.

Yeah, no. While CV likes to hate on Miles he is a high street tier character that can easily compete with Peter in terms of stats. Here he OHKOs Ult Doctor Doom while tired.

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So unless you actually have other feats to show Miles being unimpressive, Norman's feat is far from unimpressive especially since Miles was bloodlsuted).

Speaking of shredding, Ken's Kagune is able to cut through Quinque that are far harder than steel (as I already presented in my opener), so neither Peter nor Norman will be safe without sufficient cutting resistance feats.

Norman has green piercing resistance actually. For instance this famous scene of him no selling chopper fire.

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Which would shred armored cars (which are more durable than steel).

Along with it's serious cutting power, Ken's Kagune is also the most versatile form of attack in this match, as Ken is capable of shaping it to his very will:

Depends on how you define versatility I guess. Because I consider Peters webs to be more versatile than a weapon that can turn into medieval tools.

In the first scan we see Eto explaining it, and in the second we see Ken actually utilizing it. Ken happens to have a rather morbid imagination though, so you'll see more armor, claws, and tails than you will, say, wings. This isn't a hinderance, however, as the armor that he can create with his Kagune is quite durable (capable of taking hits from a weapon made of the same material):

How resistant is it to fire? Because Norman can fire blasts that make destroy an entire squad of SHEILD agents in Hulkbuster armor (not the Hulkbuster armor, the SHIELD version).

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As you can see, Ken can also run them through the ground or even make them speak to confuse his opponents. I think I remember one of you mentioning your team's reach advantage, which is valid, but Ken has some impressive range of his own:

It might slow Norman down. But he can always just explode if it bothers him too much.

Lastly, your team's most impressive durability feats are blunt force only, so there is no evidence to say that Ken won't slice right through them, which brings me to our next section: speed and skill.

Covered. Bullets use piercing damage.

Speed is something that Ken himself accels at, as evidenced by his fight with Arima, someone who blitzes bullet-timing Ghouls on a daily basis. That wasn't just a one-time deal though, as he has also dodged attacks from V Agents (who have been stated to equal Arima in speed):

Like I said earlier Norman regularly fight people faster and more skilled than him and has no problem. Same thing applies here.

Team Advantages:

I would like to mention our teams advantages, number one being speed. Spider-Man is inferior to Garou in speed, and Goblin is the slowest person in the match.This means your team will be having trouble tagging their opponents moreso than Garou and Ken Kaneki will.

Yeah. Good luck dodging this.

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The second thing is teamwork,neither of our teams have perfect teamwork but I think Garou and Ken will work together better than Spider-Man and Goblin will.That's because Goblin is literally insane

We both have basic team work. So it should be equal. But besides that Norman has experience leading a team (Ultimate Six), do either of you have experience even being in one? Asides from that while we both have basic knowledge on everyone, Norman pretty much knows what Spidey can do (even though this is 616, their power sets and fighting style and identical). So we have better knowledge on each other than you do.

Third is that our team has much more skill than you guys team, Garou alone is the most skilled person in this match, adding in Ken Kaneki(who is pretty skilled in his own right from what I have seen) just means that this is an undebatable edge Garou and Ken have over Spider-Man and Green Goblin.

Yeah. But it doesn't matter, this isn't a martial arts tourney, this is a fight where the strongest will survive.

Counters: Summary and Strategy

From Watcher. A lot of this is aimed at Spidey but this is not a 1v1 fight, so i will respond.

Garou is much faster than Spider-Man,stronger, far more skilled, and is durable enough to tank punches from Peter.

Luckily, Norman is stronger than Garou so he can cover for Peter (if what you are saying is even true).

On top of this, he will be predicting his movements, so Peter will not only be having trouble tagging Garou, but dodging his attacks.

We have AoE. You aren't dodging that without flight.

If however, I'm wrong about Garou being physically more powerful than Spider-Man, it still won't change anything.As Garou is powerful enough to last till he adapts to Spider-Man and get the better of him.

How fast can he grow?

Once Garou is done with Spider-Man he is free to help Ken Kaneki with Ultimate Green Goblin.

Garou will get rid of Pete before Norman beats Ken? I doubt it.

Next is Valor's strategy. Which is not really much of a strategy.

With Garou's skill advantage and Ken's cutting, slicing and piercing advantage, I feel that our team has a massive lead going into this fight.

We actually have more advantages and more significant advantages than you guys do. More on that later.

For one, neither member of your team can stop Ken from chopping them up,

If you can even pierce Norman's skin, he can heal from death.

and they are to feral or unskilled to go against the aforementioned Garou in close quarters combat.

How is being feral a bad thing? If a savage bear were to fight a fast martial artist, the bear would win (via tanking attacks, being too aggressive, being stronger etc). That is what would happen if Goblin fought Garou.

Nothing in your team's arsenal suggests that they would last very long if we decided with simply bum rushing them, nor do they have the necessary stats to push us back or adequately overwhelm us.

Nothing in your posts show that you can do anything to significantly injure Norman (unless I am missing something) and I doubt you have the speed to rush Spidey.

Our Team's Advantages:

  • Firepower: You have none of this so it is not debatable.
  • Range: Garou is a martial artists so he is adding nothing here. Ken has a good distance but webs trump it and Norman's blasts trump them all in DC and AoE.
  • Better Team Composition: Our team can cover each other's faults (Norman can eat damage if Spidey can't/Spiey can use his speed if Norman can't). Meanwhile both Garou and Ken seem pretty equal. Also if you play team based shooters you will know that a tank and damage will have an advantage against 2 damage class.

Norman's Advantages:

  • Strongest person in the fight.
  • Most durable person in the fight.
  • Flight.
  • Firepower.
  • Internal attacks.

If you need proof look no further than the time he fought Hobgoblin, SHIELD and Spidey at the same time (I can't post the whole thing so you can go read Ult SPidey 117 to see the whole fight).

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As you can see he takes on the Hulkbuster squad, Hobgoblin (who is just as strong as he is) and Spidey. Yet he is not stopped, not even slowed and he eats a lot of damage. Then he kills Hobgoblin by burning his head off (including the inside of it). Nobody here can take that much damage except Norman. Even if you were as strong as Norman who would beat you as he should Hobgoblin and he would only need to grab your face to do some serious damage.

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#68 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6899 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: awesome post dude! Looks like we're starting our final round now...

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#69 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio
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#70 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18754 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: @blackspidey2099: @major_hellstorm: I'm really impressed by how fast you guys were with your posts, I am reading the posts now but mine will be up sometime after thursday since that's when the next chapter of one punch man comes out.

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#71 Posted by ValorKnight (12695 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: Thanks, and I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we'll be looking forward to it (this CaV has been dope so far).

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#72 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: Great. This will actually be the first 2v2 CaV I have been in that will actually finish.

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#73 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18754 posts) - - Show Bio
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#74 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18754 posts) - - Show Bio

"This is what I feared most. Expelled by the power of justice without even a say. But I won't let it."

I will just say this now @blackspidey2099 that I was holding back some feats because I felt it would be too much for Spider-Man. Now that I see how you debate I don't think that will be needed anymore.

Concluding Counters

Garou's durability vs Spider-Man's Strength

It's pretty clear the building is falling down (which is why there is an explosion, and the right part of the building is tilting over). You could argue that the hit only caused a part of the building to break though, I guess.

Exactly, the whole building wasn't destroyed at best only a small portion of it.

Cute. But Peter can still do better. Assuming Tank Top Master is around human size, that piece of the building is only about 3 times his height. And it clearly has some holes, so it's hollow in some places. (Not to mention the fact we have no idea how high it goes, so I can't just assume it went hundreds of feet into the air) Here, Peter pulls down an entire building on top of Venom (which is possibly around 6 times Peter's height):

Am I supposed to be impressed? That building is old,worn down, and condemned. It would be far easier to pull down than a regular building.

Anyway, Tank Top Master is stronger than you're giving him credit for. One of the paradisers was able to one shot a building.

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Which scales to TTM,since Pur Puri Prisoner(who has been confirmed to be the weakest Class S hero) is stronger than Hammerhead in the same battle suit as those seen above

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Please don't try to downplay this, as this wall was meant to hold many superhuman criminals, so it isn't like that wall isn't much stronger a regular one.

You may be wondering though why TTM's punch to the ground didn't do that much damage though,right? Well I think that's because he was holding back, seeing as how, he only did it so that Garou would be caught off guard by the ground shaking and be able tag him.He also literally states he was holding back at first so this isn't just speculation.

I'd love to see what feats Spider-Man has better than one shotting a building.

And here, Peter lifts up part of a warehouse and shakes it around to scare some baddies:

Not even close, all he did was break some of the supports, which naturally caused the building to shake.He is by no means, lifting, anything in that scan.

To be fair, Peter was pretty pissed off in both those instances. But it does show that he can output enough power to match/beat Tank Top Master's if he needs to.

Not really, and once again Garou surpassed TTM, if he didn't he would never have been able to survive a feat against Metal Bat.

Scorpion is fast enough to worry Spider-Man 2099.

OK?

Unless you think he just sat there while Peter wrapped him in a web cocoon, he must have been knocked out. Besides, the Scorpion's eyes don't glow by themselves, so it must be due to the armor - meaning the fact they are glowing has no bearing on his state of consciousness.

He could be incapacitated.

The only feats you showed for Tank Top Master is that he could hit hard enough to cause the ground underneath to shatter and shake (in your intro) and that he could throw a large piece of debris.

I given evidence that TTM could do more in this post, and that throwing that "large piece of debris" is something spider-man couldn't have done. Unless you have a scan of him lifting something comparable with one hand, and throwing it hundreds of feet into the air at supersonic speeds.

I've already shown Peter has strength feats that outshine TTM's rock throwing feat, and as for Tank Top Master's "ground pound" feat, Peter's got some experience creating craters in the ground as well. Here we see Peter striking Venom hard enough to create huge craters in the ground and causing nearby cars to lift into the air, and we see Peter striking the ground near Punisher to knock him off balance.

Meh, the paradisers and hammerhead have done better.

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This feat, and the feat I gave at the top, are better than any feat you can show for Spider-Man.

As for Garou's adaption abilities, there's nothing saying he becomes stronger or faster depending on the situation, at least from what you posted. The closest is that scan where it says "Only when fighting a stronger opponent who corners him, he can find his true strength and grow", but that seems more like he generally improves, rather than gaining improved physical attributes.

Except, that's not it, he does improve physically, you just are interpreting it that way. Garou at one point said where he is at that point, a Class S hero would be too much for him, after doing more fighting he ends up being able to do just that. If his physical stats didn't improve why does he explicitly say that his eyes have adjusted after deflecting those bullets seen in my opener?

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Right before beating those class A heroes and criminals he basically said that fighting the "fodder" will make him stronger

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After losing a fight to WDM, he says that "his sense have sharpened to unprecedented levels".

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That clearly implies that he has gotten vastly better after his fight with him.Every battle brings him closer and closer to becoming a monster, so to say that there is no evidence that he improves is crazy, because there is way more evidence than I am showing right now,I just think this is enough to prove the point to you.

. And even if he does gain improved physical attributes, there's nothing suggesting he can improve his physical attributes to be above Spider-Man, since he hasn't done so before. We can't just assume he will be able to without feats to back it up - that's getting close to the NLF fallacy IMO.

Umm...what? Have you heard of monster Garou?The guy is able to solo every character in spider-verse, yet you say he hasn't improve his physical attributes above Spider-Man? Sure, I am using human Garou, but that doesn't change the fact that he has shown he can and has improved his physical stats far exceeding Spider-Man.He went from being below TTM to being able to hold his own against Genos while extremely weakened, it's safe to say that even if we pretend Spider-Man is more powerful that Garou can evolve past him.

One-shotting Tank Top Master isn't very impressive for now, since you haven't shown any durability feats for TTM to back up that claim.

What claim? I never gave that as a strength feat, it was just to shown that Garou can adapt past people in combat.

And it doesn't have anything to do with Garou's durability, so there's absolutely zero proof to show Garou's adaptation can increase his durability.

Right, so we're supposed to just assume that it improves speed, and strength but not durability? Anyway it's obvious it does, otherwise he would have gotten one shotted by Bang, who is far, far above TTM in every way. In the most recent chapter he was taking punches from Genos(who wanted to eliminate him) which is extremely impressive, who is by feats much stronger than TTM,Spider-Man, or UGG.

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He also took being slammed against a tree by Genos

Although Genos doesn't break the tree he was only trying to tie Garou to it so he could vaporize him with a blast, so it's a decent feat.
Although Genos doesn't break the tree he was only trying to tie Garou to it so he could vaporize him with a blast, so it's a decent feat.

Keep in mind, he is still weakened,poisoned,wounded, and tired here.

The best durability feat you showed for him was that he can take TTM's hits, but clearly they were hurting him a ton.

I find it really interesting, that you choose to ignore Garou's best feats and focus on his lower showings, despite me telling you that Garou fought TTM at the beginning of his hero hunt. That said, taking attacks from Bang and Bomb is leagues above taking hits from TTM, so I'm not even sure why you assumed that was his best. Bang alone is able to wipe out 2 Dragon Level threats with his attacks in an instant.

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And his brother should be roughly on par with Bang so that makes the feat even better.

Here are OPM threat levels so you can get why this is impressive.

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Since I've shown Peter is stronger than TTM

Oh, Spider-Man can one shot a building? Mind showing me in what comic?

Garou will be taking more, even stronger, hits from Peter. This should really damage him.

Considering he can take attacks from Bang and Bomb, as well as take a beating from two demon level threats(the threat level below dragon) I'd say he can tank Spider-Man's best attacks for sure.His durability and endurance is nothing short of insane, Spider-Man would have loads of trouble putting him down even if he was strong enough to do so.

The takeaway from this section is that Peter is strong enough to really hurt both Garou and Kaneki should he so choose. I think I've proven that Peter is at least on par with, if not stronger than Tank Top Master, and seeing how badly hurt Garou was from just a couple hits by Tank Top Master, Peter should be able to replicate a similar amount of damage.

He isn't stronger than TTM, and even if he was TTM is fodder to Garou, so good job? Even if you can prove that Spider-Man is stronger that just means he no longer is going to be immediately fodderized by Garou like he would have otherwise.

Speed

Just because Spider-Man and Ben Reilly can't consistently catch bullets doesn't mean they aren't quick enough to do so.

Sure they can catch bullets, just not anywhere near the extent Garou can.

Remember, there is absolutely no need for Peter to catch a bullet, since it would just go right through him anyway - just like if he had been shot. That's why catching/deflecting bullets is just as much about having the skill to do so in a way that you're not just getting shot, as it is about being able to perceive the bullet moving.

Being able to perceive a bullet in no way means you're fast enough to do what Garou can do.

As for the Ben Reilly feat, I'm not sure why you are saying he was barely fast enough to catch the bullet, since there's nothing showing that he struggled with it, except him saying he didn't know if he could.

He doesn't look like he was effortlessly doing it, so he definitely isn't casual with it(which is how Garou was against Golden Ball). But I say barely because it IMO looks like he was barely fast enough to do it, the fact that he wasn't even sure he could adds to the fact that he didn't come anywhere near doing it easily.

Anyways, Peter has the feats to show he can probably at least perceive the bullets slow enough to replicate the feat, though he can't deflect them himself due to not being skilled enough.

DCEU Wonder Woman can perceive bullets, but she doesn't have a single speed feat on par with Garou's gatling gun feat.

1 - Spider-Man can easily dodge a bullet, even after waiting for it to move close to him (this proves he doesn't just aim dodge)

Deflecting a bullet calls for more speed than dodging it, so his feat against Golden ball is better. And he does aim dodge things that are light speed attacks, I never said he aim dodges bullets.

2 - Spider-Man's spider sense effectively freezes time for him, to the point he can perceive the actual bullet as it settles into the chamber and then gets shot out

He isn't perceiving anything, he just can sense the bullet in the chamber via spider sense.

3 - Peter's reaction time is at least at microsecond levels.

Hypocritical much? You don't want to use TTM's stating how Garou's attacks work yet you use a statement to spider-man can do something that is far better than anything he has ever done(disregarding pis feats obviously). And then you pretend like this is Spider-Man's consistent speed which it isn't.

According to the second answer here, a tank fires bullets at around 1700 m/s (which should be quicker than a Gatling gun - even though you said it was modified so it's rate of fire increased, that doesn't mean the muzzle velocity of the bullets increased as well). Assuming Garou was about 3 meters from the guy, it would take each bullet about 2 milliseconds to travel that distance (if Garou is 2 meters away, it's about 1 millisecond). Given Peter's microsecond reaction time, he should be able to react to 1000 bullets from 2 meters away, and 2000 bullets from 3 meters away. While I doubt Peter could deflect all 1000/2000 of those even if he had the skill, it just goes to show he could definitely deflect a number closer to what's shown in the scan, if he knew how.

Calcs huh? So you have no speed feats to say Spider-Man can do it so you rely on calcs? Cool.Anyway according to google gatling guns can fire up to 100 bullets per second, which means Garou(of course) had to deflect up to 100 bullets every second, while weakened,wounded, and poisoned. I would love to see an actual feat that says Spider-Man could replicate that.

And while this isn't Peter himself, when Hercules was depowered and got Spider-Man's powers during Spider-Island, he was easily able to perceive and deflect bullets with a sword.

Don't know if that can be used for Spider-man, sure he had his powers, but it isn't like some clones made by Jackel aren't above Spider-Man(Kaine)so simply having his powers doesn't make this a feat for Spider-Man. It's inferior to Garou's feat regardless.

Spider-Man/Human Torch 1 is the issue. It's canon. And Peter has moved quicker than targeting computers can track before as well, so I doubt it is an outlier.

Wasn't the comic written during the 80s or 90s? How fast could could they track at that time?

You can't just say they aren't "true" after images if you don't even say what you mean by that. Spider-Man makes after images all the time, for example:

I said exactly what I meant by it, comic artists sometimes have "afterimages" made by a character to just show movement, which is why I gave the example of DD, someone who isn't fast enough to create true after images. As for your example, can you prove those are real afterimages?

I'm not sure what the point of comparing Peter to Daredevil is, since even if comic artists show "fake" after images for Daredevil, that doesn't mean Peter's are also fake.

Daredevil is a really good example of this as we see him making "afterimages" in a fight with hulk

Look at the underlined part.

Peter is significantly quicker than Matt (who is a bullet timer himself). In fact, peak humans like Matt and Paladin can barely even perceive his movements.

Cool, Garou can move so fast that a bunch of Class S heroes can't even see him move, which is far better than moving at blur speeds.

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think we all know that Matt himself is a bullet timer, as we see here and here. In fact, Matt himself can deflect bullets (though not to the same extent as Garou), like so.

I think that's the best proof that bullet deflection isn't quite as special as you make it out to be.

How in the world can you possibly compare deflecting hundreds of bullets every second while weakened,poisoned, and wounded to what DD is doing?The difference in speed needed to do what Garou did is leagues above everything Daredevil has ever or will ever do, to act like those feats are similar is actual downplay. In fact, it's been stated DD deflects bullets through pure skill, using his radar sense to detect where someone will fire the bullet instead of reacting to it afterwards like Garou. Pretty poor example if you ask me.

The difference between Will O'The Wisp and a normal blast at light speed is that Will O'The Wisp can follow Peter around at light speed, which Peter obviously can't outrun. A light blast just needs to be dodged once.

You may have a point if Spider-Man dodged the initial attack and was tagged.But he was hit before he could do anything at all, and it was legit stated that Will O' The Wisp was faster so I'm not even sure how or why you're trying to argue Spider-Man can dodge light speed attacks.

Hell later in the same comic Spider-man admits even his spider sense can't help him against a ball of light

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For example,

1 - even Ock can dodge a few of Lightmaster's light attacks in Peter's body, despite being extremely inexperienced

2 - Spider-Man easily dodges Lightmaster's attacks

3 - more laser dodging

4 - Spider-Man easily dodges repulsors while ranting (and yes, repulsors are light speed, like so and like so)

Quite a few of them are aim dodging but hey, I'll be nice and pretend Spider-Man actually is fast enough to dodge light speed attacks. As hard as it may be to believe, Spider-Man would still be slower than Garou even if we did that.The reason for that is because Genos has dodged lasers too

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And Garou is able to hold his own against a faster Genos just fine despite being heavily weakened,poisoned, wounded, and exhausted(from fighting 8 different heroes all at once).

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So yeah, I don't think Genos or Garou are faster than light but if you want to use such high end(honestly pis)feats for Spider-Man, then I can easily do the same for Garou.

So I don't think it is "wank", lol, since Peter does it all the time. Sure, he can't dodge them without his Spider Sense to warn him before they actually are fired, since he can't move fast enough to dodge them after they are fired, but Spider Sense is one of Peter's powers.

Spider-Man is a casual bullet timer, not someone who can dodge light speed attacks without pis.You're trying too hard to prove Spider-Man is faster when he isn't.

That's why I think Peter is still quicker than Garou, especially with his spider sense to guide him. Garou hasn't really dodged anything quicker than bullets.

Saitama hasn't beaten any herald level threats, does that make Spider-Man stronger than him too? PIS is PIS and shouldn't be used as a feat. I really feel like you're really trying too hard to prove Spider-Man has all the physical advantages to win this CaV despite not actually having them(again even resorting to PIS because it),especially in the next section I'm about to get to.

Garou hasn't really dodged anything quicker than bullets.

Unfortunately for you he has.

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Garou's Strength vs Spider-Man durability

I really don't think causing a little crater in the ground is comparable to matching strength with someone who can damage a building with the force of his blows.

I explained Garou was holding back, the reason was because Saitama at the time was only a Class B hero, so Garou had no reason at all to think he had to go all out. He had no reason to think that Saitama( a Class B hero) would have power surpassing all the Class S heroes we have seen so far.

As for the other feat I shown he was literally just jumping down, he wasn't trying to do anything else, so by no means is making little craters the peak of what Garou can do. That said in the scan with venom, those attacks weren't even cratering the ground, yet Spider-Man wasn't able to no sell them. Those feats were just to show Garou has feats better than one shotting Death Gatling, and if we look at feats Puri Puri Prisoner has, and scale them to TTM, it shows that it isn't inconsistent for Garou to do what he did against Metal Bat.

Stop ignoring all the feats that you know are far better than Spider-Man's and choosing to only look at the lower end feats.Because even Garou's punching holes in that demon level monster is far better than jumping down and cratering the ground(although that's a feat I don't see Spider-Man replicating at all).

Either way, Spider-Man has better strength feats than just hitting the ground hard enough to make a small crack in a nearby building, so Garou is not as strong as Peter.Anyways, neither Tank Top Master, nor Metal Bat, nor Garou have shown attack power exceeding a point blank shot from a rocket launcher. And Spider-Man no-sold a rocket launcher in his armor (which, according to Wikipedia, are used to destroy tanks). So how will Garou knock Peter out?

You're crazy, if you really think that. I had someone look into the feat and here is what he said.

TBH I have no idea how to quantify what metal bat did, but I know that if you shot a rocket launcher into the ground it would never in a million years send a crack up the side of a multi-story building that was 20 - 30 feet away. To create an effect like that with just a kinetic impact would require something like this, a solid steel 800mm diameter projectile that weighs 15,700 pounds and travels at around mach 2.1

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Yeah and what makes this even worst is sending a crack up a building isn't the best thing Metal Bat did, right afterward he shakes the city block with a single hit.If Spider-Man was hit with an attack like that, it would literally take off his head,you can try to downplay the feat but that's a fact.And Garou was matching many of Metal Bat's best hits before hitting him away with a strike. If Garou wants Spider-Man dead, he will die, it's that simple.

Spider-Man says his head is spinning since he has no air (aka. he is being suffocated). He doesn't mention the actual force of being hit even once. And that was a weird time in Spider-Man history, he was living with robots who were acting as his parents (and he thought they really were his parents). So no, lol, he wasn't delirious.

I know, but his mother(robot imitation of her at least) wasn't there, so I do think he was(although it may be due to the lack of oxygen).And it isn't like Venom was doing much damage with those attacks anyway.

I'm not sure if they were, since they were fighting off spider-power citizens who were trying to steal stuff. And Ms. Marvel was pissed since Peter tried to touch her (she thought he was being pervy).

That doesn't mean they were going all out, unless you seriously think the Thing, the guy who can no sell nukes and stalemate Professor Green in an arm wrestle was going all out.And Ms.Marvel is an ironman level person(weaker than him though)you can't use this as a feat since there is no way they were not holding back.

Anyways, since Garou's best feats are of cracking concrete/stone

I don't think Garou has shown he can even punch through metals like steel, and do much damage to rock/concrete other than make those small craters.

I explained those aren't his best feats, seriously ignoring the feats that you know are better than Spider-Man's is very annoying.The paradisers and Metal Bat's feats far exceed punching through metal.

And as I showed earlier, in his armor Peter can no-sell a point blank RPG hit, as well as automatic gunfire. He is barely affected by sniper fire as well. Nothing you've shown me from Garou shows that he can output that kind of power.

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This is above is above everything shown by Green Goblin and Spider-Man. And as shown he can deflect attacks of that power.

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First of all, it seems more like Tank Top Master is saying Garou redirected his own hit back at him, not that Garou can punch that hard.

We're arguing wording here, the point is Garou's attack can send back 2x the power of his opponent, him doing it via punching or otherwise doesn't matter.

Secondly, this is just a character statement, not a quantifiable feat.

Right, so you want me to just ignore it because you know this means Garou is undoubtedly going to be hitting harder than Spider-Man? Not happening. And what is so unquantifiable about 2x the power of your opponent?

How would Tank Top Master measure Garou's strength in terms of his own?

Umm... TTM knows how strong he is?I think he should know what two times his own power is.

The only feat here is that Garou could knock out TTM, but since you've given no durability feats for TTM, that's not really a good strength feat either.

I never gave it as a strength feat!! Garou didn't even knock out TTM with the fist of flowing water crushed rock move, why do you keep saying this statement?!

And just to show how unreliable statements can be, here are Thor and Hulk saying Spider-Man is strong enough to slightly budge them both when they were holding him (Hulk says he thinks he felt Spider-Man move).

Right... so showing me Spider-Man having the strength to slightly move two planetary being is somehow comparable to Garou being stated to have a move that hits with double his opponent's power? How? And how else could we know that the move does that without a statement? You seem to just be desperate.

I think I've shown he won't really be able to do any significant damage.

Show me Spider-Man tanking an attack that shook a city block.

On the other hand, it seems like Ken Kaneki is a bit more of a threat here, if he is able to casually rip through ghouls stronger than steel and throw people through concrete. The durability feats up there for Peter show he should be able to shake off those attacks quite easily, but they may do more damage than Garou's. If Kaneki is focusing on Goblin as your strategy suggests though, this shouldn't be much of an issue.

Not really, Garou is far faster, is STILL stronger, is far more, skilled and has the durability to tank everything Spider-Man has. Spider-Man has been overwhelmed by people with less advantages than Garou, like the Answer.

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Spectacular Spider-Man issue 92

All the answer had was the durability to tank punches from Spider-Man and superior speed(no superhuman strength), and that was enough to beat him to near unconsciousness. Yet here we have Garou, someone who is also faster, someone far stronger, someone with more skill, and also has the durability to tank Spider-man's punches is somehow going to lose?Not happening. Spider-Man is going to be overwhelmed by Garou's strength,speed, and skill advantage, and will find out he will have a hard time putting down Garou.

skill

Oh yeah, definitely,

Glad you agree.

he might still be more skilled than the people Garou has fought before (such as Tank Top Master - whose style of fighting, according to the wiki, consists of hitting the ground really hard, and also charging at people). So it isn't for nothing.

And Spider-Man was tagged by people with less skill and speed than Garou.

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So I wouldn't even bring this up if I were you.

In fact this bring me to another point, that being pressure points(which Garou uses according to TTM). Spider-Man has been hurt by them just fine, like in his fight with Cap.

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In fact, despite Spider-Man actually being faster than Captain America, he hasn't hit him once(and was actually tagged three times) because of Cap's skill, who you admitted is definitely less skilled than Garou.Pressure points are something that garou can use to incapacitate Spider-Man if he sees the need to do so. And he used them on literally every class s hero he has fought, no reason to think he won't here.

Well, they got powers from the Jackal, which should be exact copies of Peter's own (just like Ben Reilly). However, it's fine if you disagree, since it makes Peter's speed even more impressive if you think Hercules' speed in Spider-Island wasn't even to Peter's level.

I addressed this.

Webbing

I also can't imagine how Garou could just redirect webbing, considering it will stick to him. He can't magically make it just bounce off...

That's something his technique does.

Fair enough, unless Peter starts shooting out wider nets of webbing. I mean, look at the area he can cover with his web-shooters in a short period of time (this specific instance is Ock using the web-shooters):

Show me peter doing it, because Ock doing it doesn't mean Peter will.

Overall, I think Spider-Man is still more than capable of significantly hurting either Ken Kaneki or Garou, and can definitely tank some of their attacks with his armor on. He is also fast enough to be able to keep up with them, and while I think I've proved he is outright quicker than both, he is on a similar level at bare minimum. His webs will also be a huge hindrance to both opponents, since he can quickly spread them over large distances and since neither Garou nor Ken Kaneki will be able to easily break through them.

You keep saying he is quicker, but he has no speed feats on par with Garou.Show me Spider-Man being able to create flashes of light like Garou did against Metal Bat.

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Strategy

I think I know which CaV that was, but the main difference between the two situations is that here, Peter is in a team, fighting another team, rather than being in a one-on-one battle (like all my other CaVs).

Nope, it wasn't your CaV which makes me think you were being more honest about it then due to you not having anything to gain by saying it.

Okay, I'm sticking with my earlier strategy, where Peter attacks mostly with webbing, and also using hit-and-run attacks. In the meantime, Goblin can be the tank and powerhouse, shooting fire all over the place like the madman he is. Due to Kaneki and Garou not having shown any fire resistance feats yet, this should definitely affect their ability to fight and possibly even hurt them by itself, if they get caught in fire. Peter and his webs should be fine, as I showed in my first post.

This plan means nothing when Garou is going to rush Spider-Man right from the start.

Peter fights very differently against teams. Instead of brawling, he usually attacks them all at the same time, jumping from person to person and using a lot more webs

That's when it's him vs. a team by himself, got any examples of him doing that with a partner?

Additionally, he knows that Garou and Kaneki are extremely quick, so it is a simple conclusion for him to realize that slowing them down with webs is the easiest solution. He also knows Osborn has fire attacks, so while he isn't a strategist, a simple strategy like webbing them up and hitting them around while Osborn shoots fire isn't too hard for him to come up with.

Assuming Obsorn's insanity doesn't lead him to attack Spider-Man, Spider-Man may think he should fight the team H2H since he knows according to you fast they are.I mean in one team up with Cardiac he did just that when saw the webbing he was ineffective against who they were fighting.

I don't think Garou will have a choice if Goblin explodes into fire. Also, you haven't shown any character justification for why Garou would follow a strategy of attacking Spider-Man - in fact, he seems like he likes trying to challenge the more intimidating looking opponent, who, in this case, is certainly Goblin with his monstrous appearance.

Garou hates the hypocrisy of heroes, how those that are popular are destined to always win, and those that are aren't well liked lose. Can you not say that he won't hate Spider-Man when your very opener calls him the world's greatest hero? He should, since he will have knowledge on his popularity, and he is literally the hero hunter for a reason. You arguing that he won't go for Spider-Man seems weird...I mean are you not confident that Spider-Man can win?

Teamwork

While it is true that Peter and Osborn wouldn't work well together if they had to trust each other or anything, the strategy outlined above is so simple that there is literally zero teamwork needed to pull it off.

Yeah it does, it implies they won't fight each other from the start, I mean Goblin is insane and killed his world's spider-man.It goes without saying that they won't get along.Goblin is also going to be going for the kill and Spider-Man doesn't like for anyone to do.

Just have Goblin go rampaging with fire, and Peter can just fight like normal, adjusting a bit more towards web attacks and using his durability advantage. In this battle, our team has both physical powerhouses, so less strategy is required. We also have the advantage of ranged attacks (webs and fire), so it will be your team who has to get in close to strike. That should combine well with our simple strategy to further ruin things for your team - if you guys stay far away, you can be picked off by fireballs and webbing, but if you get close, you are more in danger from Goblin's giant fire explosions, for example. There's no retreat option for you.

Garou can find a way to adapt to Goblin's pyrokinetic abilities, but even if he doesn't he could easily go for incapacitating him with pressure points(making things easier for Ken) and move on to Spider-Man.

The other significant advantage is that Peter may be willing to go morals off on Kaneki at least, and possibly even Garou, since they aren't really human. For example, here Peter is willing to kill an undead zombie creature, since "he can't kill what's already dead".

Terrible example, if he is already dead then he can't kill him. And Garou is just as human as Spider-Man if not more due to not being mutated. TTM too questioned if Garou was human and realized he was.

Now for you @major_hellstorm

General counters

Norman has green piercing resistance actually. For instance this famous scene of him no selling chopper fire.

Yet he has been hurt by lesser bullets later.

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And was even hurt by this

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Either way, his peicing resistance isn't so high that Ken can't ever cut through him.

Like I said earlier Norman regularly fight people faster and more skilled than him and has no problem. Same thing applies here.

So what? Garou would absolutely shred Ultimate Peter and Miles together, so bringing up Goblin fighting slower people than Garou is pointless.

Team stuff

Yeah. Good luck dodging this.

What is the height of those blasts? They appear to be about the height of UGG, so Garou should have no trouble jumping over them,seeing as how a weakened Garou could do jump pretty high.

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We both have basic team work. So it should be equal.

Basic not perfect. This just means that everyone knows they should work together, but it by no means disregards how they act in character.Goblin hates and killed his version of Spider-Man, so prove to me he will work better with this version.

But besides that Norman has experience leading a team (Ultimate Six), do either of you have experience even being in one?

He has experience leading a team, but I doubt Spider-Man will be taking orders from Goblin. Once again this will cause trouble with your team. And no, Garou hunts heroes alone, but he isn't stupid and if he sees the need to work with Ken Kaneki then he will.

Asides from that while we both have basic knowledge on everyone, Norman pretty much knows what Spidey can do (even though this is 616, their power sets and fighting style and identical). So we have better knowledge on each other than you do.

So? This just means he knows he is working with a person he hates. That said it isn't like Goblin and Spider-Man are overly complicated in terms of powersets. Goblin is just a brick with pyrokinetic abilities, while spider-man is just a superhuman with pre-cognitive abilities. These are things Garou could find counters to and adapt against if he is faced with them.

Yeah. But it doesn't matter, this isn't a martial arts tourney, this is a fight where the strongest will survive.

You make it seem like martial arts won't help here, how is it that Cap or punisher give Spider-Man trouble? Luck? It's skill and Garou has loads of it, and techniques like his fist of flowing water crushed rock technique guarantee that Garou will be hitting the hardest of anyone no matter who he faces.

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And also what's Goblin's resistance to pressure points like? As far as I know, it's nonexistent, so Garou can abuse this if he ends up fighting Goblin.

Luckily, Norman is stronger than Garou so he can cover for Peter (if what you are saying is even true).

Really? Garou was matching multiple attacks from metal bat when one was shown to be able to shake a city block.

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Mind showing me that time Goblin did something like that? And Garou like I shown, could take punches from Genos, the same guy who(when he was weaker) can send DSK flying through a monster relief shelter and a couple buildings.

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And just to why that's impressive, they were stated to be able to no sell missiles and tank fire.

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We have AoE. You aren't dodging that without flight.

He can jump or outrun it.

Garou will get rid of Pete before Norman beats Ken? I doubt it.

Cool, it's still happening though.

We actually have more advantages and more significant advantages than you guys do. More on that later.

Besides range what do you have? Garou is arguably the strongest one here(actually I have no doubt he is but you guys will try to dispute it I'm sure), is without a doubt the fast, is the most skilled, and was still able to fight after a prolonged beating from Bang and Bomb, and Bang alone is enough to stomp Goblin and Spider-Man simultaneously. Range and being the "most durable" can only get you so far when your outclassed so badly in speed that you can't tag your opponents,are outclassed in skill, and won't even be able to work with your teammate.

If you can even pierce Norman's skin, he can heal from death.

If he dies here he loses. That said he can die as miles morales and that police officer proven.And Garou has a technique he absorbed through combat from Bomb that does piercing damage, so once Garou beats Spider-Man he can help turn Goblin to confetti. Just to show what it looks like

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I actually think Garou would one shot Goblin(or Spider-Man for that matter) with this move, unless you can prove otherwise.

How is being feral a bad thing? If a savage bear were to fight a fast martial artist, the bear would win (via tanking attacks, being too aggressive, being stronger etc). That is what would happen if Goblin fought Garou.

That would be an accurate example, if that martial artist had the strength to knock out the bear,was fast enough to never be tagged, was durable enough to tank everything the bear threw at him, had the ability to adapt past those he fights, and had techniques that allows him to hit 2x harder than said bear.

Nothing in your posts show that you can do anything to significantly injure Norman (unless I am missing something) and I doubt you have the speed to rush Spidey.

Mind showing me a single feat that beats moving FTE to a bunch of Class S heroes, deflecting hundreds of bullets from a gatling gun while weakened,wounded, and poisoned or creating flashes of light?

Norman's Advantages:

  • Strongest person in the fight.
  • Most durable person in the fight.

These are debatable at best, but when you include techniques like the fist of flowing water crushed rock, Garou undoubtedly has more striking strength than Goblin.

Conclusion

Nothing has changed, you guys are too slow to compete with Garou, aren't as skilled and aren't stronger than him. And feats like taking an assault from Bang and Bomb prove that he is more than durable enough to tank everything you guys have and keep fighting. No matter who Garou fights the result is the same, Garou is going to win due to better striking strength, far superior speed,the durability to tank what you guys have,more skill, and the ability to adapt past you guys.Garou may not have the energy resistance to say he can tank a fire blast from Green Goblin but that doesn't matter when he is more than fast enough to avoid being hit with it in the first place.He may have some trouble here, but once he adapts Goblin and Spider-Man are getting the TTM treatment. Nothing you guys have shown makes me think Garou honestly can't even solo you both, since Garou was punching holes in monsters more powerful than Spider-Man or Goblin.I'm just not convinced that with all of what Garou brings and all of what @valor_175 shown Ken Kaneki has, that you guys can win.

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#76 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18754 posts) - - Show Bio
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#77 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6899 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: Awesome,nice post. I may not be able to reply very soon though since I have some tests next week. We'll see if I can eke out some time over the weekend.

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#78 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18754 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099 said:

@watcher5000: Awesome,nice post. I may not be able to reply very soon though since I have some tests next week. We'll see if I can take this out some time over the weekend.

That's fine, take your time.

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#79 Posted by ValorKnight (12695 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#80 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18754 posts) - - Show Bio
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#82 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18754 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: I'm the one who requested Spider-Man have armor in the first place because I felt Spider-Man was too weak(I just didn't want to go against an armor that can tank attacks from people like hercules or Thor).I told Blackspidey in a pm after my opener that if he felt Garou was too much that he could change it, or mix armor's abilities.He said that he thought this armor he has here is the most fair so......

Edit:On top of all that, this armor is actually more durable than the one you thought BS2099 should use.

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#84 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18754 posts) - - Show Bio
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#85 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio
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#86 Edited by blackspidey2099 (6899 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah sorry guys, been having a hard time balancing all my tasks, but I will probably end up staying up late for as long as it takes tomorrow night to finish this.

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#87 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio
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#88 Edited by blackspidey2099 (6899 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 3: Final Counters + Conclusion

"Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going's tough - when there seems to be no chance - that's when it counts!" - Spider-Man

Counters/Rebuttals

I will just say this now @blackspidey2099 that I was holding back some feats because I felt it would be too much for Spider-Man. Now that I see how you debate I don't think that will be needed anymore.

Umm... I hope this is a compliment? lol

Thanks, I guess.

Spider-Man's Strength vs Garou's Durability

Okay, let's start here:

It's pretty clear the building is falling down (which is why there is an explosion, and the right part of the building is tilting over). You could argue that the hit only caused a part of the building to break though, I guess.

Exactly, the whole building wasn't destroyed at best only a small portion of it.

I wouldn't say that it was just a small portion of it, it looked like quite a large chunk to my eye. Also, it seemed that was more due to the fact Spider-Man only hit Iron Man 2020 to the side of the building, and it was where Iron Man 2020 landed that determined how much was going to break off, so if Peter had hit him closer to the middle of the building, more would have broken. However, I guess I can't unequivocally prove that, so I'll leave this here for now.

Am I supposed to be impressed? That building is old,worn down, and condemned. It would be far easier to pull down than a regular building.

I don't recall that comic saying the building was old, worn down, OR condemned. We can assume it was abandoned, since Peter wouldn't have destroyed it otherwise, but your assumption that it was far weaker than a regular building seems to have no supporting evidence (besides the fact that would make it easier on you ;) ).

Anyway, Tank Top Master is stronger than you're giving him credit for. One of the paradisers was able to one shot a building.

Which scales to TTM,since Pur Puri Prisoner(who has been confirmed to be the weakest Class S hero) is stronger than Hammerhead in the same battle suit as those seen above

You may be wondering though why TTM's punch to the ground didn't do that much damage though,right? Well I think that's because he was holding back, seeing as how, he only did it so that Garou would be caught off guard by the ground shaking and be able tag him.He also literally states he was holding back at first so this isn't just speculation.

Well, this is a LOT of scaling, so allow me to do some of my own, in order to respond to this. Personally, I prefer keeping the power scaling to a minimum, but I guess it is fine in this case considering we're both doing it.

So, here're a few demonstrations of Spider-Man's striking strength when he is angry/sufficiently motivated:

1 - A pissed Spider-Man one-shots Hammerhead (post adamantium upgrade)

Hammerhead can take a few hits from an enraged Luke Cage. Luke Cage can hurt Thing and carry a large truck 7 blocks with ease.

2 - Spider-Man is able to beat Mr. Hyde into unconsciousness after a while of hitting.

Mr. Hyde can take a few hits from Silver Age Thor (Thor takes 60 seconds to put him down) and Gray Hulk.

3 - Spider-Man casually one-shots Tombstone

4 - Spider-Man one-shots Tombstone again

Tombstone can tank an RPG shots and gas main explosion large enough to destroy a building, and easily take hits from Luke Cage.

5 - Spider-Man one-shots Mr. Negative

Mr. Negative is completely fine tanking an explosion which one-shots a building (and then tanking the force of the building collapsing on him). (BTW, Spidey is running out of the building since it was filled with a deadly gas keyed to his DNA, and he was running out of time holding his breath)

6&7 - Spider-Man knocks out Rhino after a fight (that's his cloth black suit, not symbiote suit btw)

Rhino can tank a truck explosion after it is thrown at him by classic Iron Man, and can take a couple hits from Gray Hulk.

8 - Spider-Man hurts and knocks down Namor (after a sucker punch)

9 - Teen Spider-Man does a bit of damage to and knocks back Namor

Namor is capable of no-selling Iron Man's RPG blasts and even taking hits from the likes of Dr Doom.

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I think those feats show Spider-Man is comparable to if not superior to Tank Top Master in strength (Peter one-shotting Mr. Negative and Tombstone is especially comparable, since they have both tanked building demolishing attacks). Remember that Peter is at a low mid-tier level of strength when he isn't holding back so as to not hurt weaker enemies. These feats are just showing what his upper range is like before we consider the adrenaline-fueled and/or outlier showings he has. I think the best proof of Peter being in a mid-tier level of physical strength is him grappling somewhat evenly with an angry Titania (who is able to easily lift and throw 40 ton steel I-beams and create huge craters in the ground and has similar strength to She-Hulk):

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Not even close, all he did was break some of the supports, which naturally caused the building to shake.He is by no means, lifting, anything in that scan.

And what is your reasoning for this? Because the scans show Peter holding a part of the warehouse and pushing up, not individually breaking each beam. And the villains specifically say it feels like something is rocking them around, which means, even if Peter did break each support beam individually, he must have still lifted it to actually shake it around.

[Scorpion] could be incapacitated.

The whole point of Spider-Man webbing Scorpion into a cocoon like that is to incapacitate him. If Scorpion was already incapacitated, then why would he need to web him up? I'm not sure why you are saying Peter didn't KO Scorpion when the scan literally shows Peter punching Scorpion then webbing him to the ground in a cocoon. And I also showed you other proof that Peter can break this armor of Scorpion's in my previous post as well...

Meh, the paradisers and hammerhead have done better.

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This feat, and the feat I gave at the top, are better than any feat you can show for Spider-Man.

That's a nice crater, but I think hurting high-tiers like Namor, Rhino, and Mr. Hyde is better than that. After all, that is only rock/asphalt...

Except, that's not it, he does improve physically, you just are interpreting it that way. Garou at one point said where he is at that point, a Class S hero would be too much for him, after doing more fighting he ends up being able to do just that. If his physical stats didn't improve why does he explicitly say that his eyes have adjusted after deflecting those bullets seen in my opener?

That clearly implies that he has gotten vastly better after his fight with him.Every battle brings him closer and closer to becoming a monster, so to say that there is no evidence that he improves is crazy, because there is way more evidence than I am showing right now,I just think this is enough to prove the point to you.

Umm...what? Have you heard of monster Garou?The guy is able to solo every character in spider-verse, yet you say he hasn't improve his physical attributes above Spider-Man? Sure, I am using human Garou, but that doesn't change the fact that he has shown he can and has improved his physical stats far exceeding Spider-Man.He went from being below TTM to being able to hold his own against Genos while extremely weakened, it's safe to say that even if we pretend Spider-Man is more powerful that Garou can evolve past him.

My bad. However, there's nothing to show that Garou can evolve past the level of the feats you have shown so far without transforming into his monster form - and thus disqualifying himself. So, we still can't assume he can evolve to levels higher than Spider-Man, or more accurately, higher than the feats you have shown so far.

In the most recent chapter he was taking punches from Genos(who wanted to eliminate him) which is extremely impressive, who is by feats much stronger than TTM,Spider-Man, or UGG.

He also took being slammed against a tree by Genos

Okay, you SAY Genos is much stronger than Peter, Norman, or TTM, but then go on to provide ZERO proof to back it up... So I'm not sure how this holds any weight. Second, the fact that being "slammed" against a tree by Genos was even a possible attack proves that either Genos is not as strong as you say, OR he was holding back immensely. If he had been using strength anywhere near Spider-Man or UGG levels, the tree would have been shattered instantaneously. In this case, the tree wasn't even shattered by Genos' energy blasts for quite a while before it broke in half.

Anyways, Garou himself says Genos is about as strong as TTM right here.

That said, taking attacks from Bang and Bomb is leagues above taking hits from TTM, so I'm not even sure why you assumed that was his best. Bang alone is able to wipe out 2 Dragon Level threats with his attacks in an instant.

Well, I assumed TTM was better since you didn't give me any feats for Bang or Bomb until now.

And even those scans you did post now just show someone (Bang, I'm assuming) beating up some random enemies. Nowhere does it say that they are Dragon Level. Furthermore, just saying they are "dragon level" is hardly a good description. Does that mean they can destroy multiple cities with the force of their hits, or that they are planning to do something which would destroy cities (like there's a difference between Hulk, who can punch out a planet, and Doc Ock making a plan which can incinerate the planet, though they are both planetary threats Hulk is way more powerful)? And even if they are strong enough to destroy cities with their attacks, that doesn't have any correlation to their durability, meaning that it might not be a great feat at all to be able to one-shot them.

Considering he can take attacks from Bang and Bomb, as well as take a beating from two demon level threats(the threat level below dragon) I'd say he can tank Spider-Man's best attacks for sure.His durability and endurance is nothing short of insane, Spider-Man would have loads of trouble putting him down even if he was strong enough to do so.

Okay, so taking attacks from two guys who you have really provided no strength feats for (the taking out dragon threats doesn't really count beyond basic bragging rights since you didn't show any proof they all have a baseline/minimum threshold durability, and that they aren't just glass cannons like Storm, Zatanna, Professor X, etc.). And from reading the description for demon level threat, I'm confident the feats I showed above show Peter should be able to dish out similar damage as well.

Overall, I think I showed that, despite Garou's impressive durability, Peter has strength equal to (if not greater than) anyone Garou has faced (and possibly been beaten by) before.

Spider-Man's Strength vs Ken Kaneki's Durability

Okay, this should hopefully be a bit shorter.

As for BS's post, those are some very impressive strength feats for Peter. However, that will simply not be enough to overwhelm Ken's incredible durability (not to mention his regeneration). To prove that I'm not just talking out my ass, Ken has tanked hits from Eto Yoshimura, who can do this:

The compactor that Eto is destroying in this scan is one used to chop up Ghouls. This means, obviously, that the metals would need to be far more durable than steel, yet Eto trashed it effortlessly. What's more is that the hits Ken took from her only fractured his skull (and gave him a protagonist monologue, but that's not important), to which he healed from directly after.

Quite impressive. However, Peter also has no trouble breaking metals much more durable than steel. For example, here Peter breaks Doc Ock's niobium-titanium arms with ease (though he is angry):

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Doc Ock's arms are strong enough to stop a train in its tracks, break through an armored car, tear through steel like paper, and tear through 12 feet of reinforced concrete and 70 feet of Manhattan bedrock - all with little to no damage to themselves. So, I think it is safe to say Spider-Man can easily replicate and outdo Eto's feat, especially if you look at all the other strength feats I have shared for Spidey.

Now then, onto Ken's actual regeneration. As I didn't cover this as much as I should have in my opener, you both seem to have a lackluster impression of Ken's regenerative abilities; you won't after this though. To start, here we see Ken get impaled by Arima's Quinque, only to heal moments later:

Impressive. However, Spider-Man is used to fighting enemies with regeneration capabilities - for example, he has knocked out Deadpool in just two hits:

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I think this shows Peter should be powerful enough to put Ken down with his strength.

Spider-Man's Speed vs Garou's and Ken's Speed

There wasn't too much to say regarding Ken, so I'll just combine both sections here.

Sure they can catch bullets, just not anywhere near the extent Garou can.

Sure, but that's because they don't have techniques to do so, not because they are too slow.

He doesn't look like he was effortlessly doing it, so he definitely isn't casual with it(which is how Garou was against Golden Ball).

It's not effortless for him because he has never done it before, while Garou is trained to do it.

Deflecting a bullet calls for more speed than dodging it, so his feat against Golden ball is better.

You say this like it's a well-accepted fact... why would moving your hand into the path of a bullet (assuming the marksman is even somewhat accurate, this should likely be somewhere in front of your body) require less speed than actually moving your whole body out of the way of the bullet. When Garou deflects bullets, all he needs to do is move his hand around - and tbh, it seems like he doesn't even need to move his hand around all that quick since the bullets were mainly being shot at the same spots - while Peter needs to move his whole body around for each bullet. It's a lot less efficient than just deflecting bullets, but considering Peter can pull it off as effectively as Garou's deflection to keep himself unharmed from bullets, it shows that Peter is as quick as Garou (if not quicker, since dodging require more movement that deflection in the same time span).

And he does aim dodge things that are light speed attacks,

No, he isn't aim dodging. Heck, let me show you Peter dodging light speed blasts while blinded, to prove that to you:

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His Spider Sense gives him an early warning which effectively gives him a head start when he needs to dodge. It's a lot better than just aim dodging (though not as good as having FTL reflexes). He definitely isn't faster than light, though. Again, just to clarify: I am not claiming that Peter has FTL reflexes (his reflexes are more around microsecond level), but with the help of an early warning from his Spider Sense, he can consistently dodge a few light speed attacks before getting tagged, as he een does in the above scan.

Hypocritical much? You don't want to use TTM's stating how Garou's attacks work yet you use a statement to spider-man can do something that is far better than anything he has ever done(disregarding pis feats obviously). And then you pretend like this is Spider-Man's consistent speed which it isn't.

Fine, let me show you a couple other examples of Peter having reaction time on that level. It is really hard finding feats like that since Peter usually does have early warning with which to move.

For example, he can dodge lightning after it is fired:

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Lightning moves at around 220,000mph.

And while this is the most clear instance that he is not aim-dodging, there are other instances of Peter dodging lightning where it seems like he isn't aim dodging:

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In all of these, Peter clearly isn't looking at his opponent the whole time he is dodging, so he can't just be looking at where they are aiming and moving from there.

And here again, Peter (he is dressed up as Mac Gargan Venom to infiltrate the Dark Avengers) mentions being able to move on a micro-second level:

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I think that should provide you with enough proof, in addition to the other microsecond feat I showed earlier here, to prove that Peter does have around microsecond level reactions.

Anyway according to google gatling guns can fire up to 100 bullets per second, which means Garou(of course) had to deflect up to 100 bullets every second, while weakened,wounded, and poisoned. I would love to see an actual feat that says Spider-Man could replicate that.

Well, Spider-Man doesn't deflect bullets so I can't show you a feat of him deflecting bullets... I can, however, show you some examples of Peter blocking/catching bullets with webs, since that's the closest I can get.

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According to the second answer here, a tank fires bullets at around 1700 m/s (which should be quicker than a Gatling gun - even though you said it was modified so it's rate of fire increased, that doesn't mean the muzzle velocity of the bullets increased as well). Assuming Garou was about 3 meters from the guy, it would take each bullet about 2 milliseconds to travel that distance (if Garou is 2 meters away, it's about 1 millisecond). Given Peter's microsecond reaction time, he should be able to react to 1000 bullets from 2 meters away, and 2000 bullets from 3 meters away. While I doubt Peter could deflect all 1000/2000 of those even if he had the skill, it just goes to show he could definitely deflect a number closer to what's shown in the scan, if he knew how.

Calcs huh? So you have no speed feats to say Spider-Man can do it so you rely on calcs? Cool.

So, I can't use calcs to prove a point, but you can (when you get to talking about the armor)? Seems hypocritical to me. Especially since the calcs I was doing were extremely basic division, while the ones you were showing me weren't even done by you and have no actual proof that they are true beyond the word of some random person who you kept anonymous...

Anyways, the calculations show that Peter should have no trouble replicating Garou's feat; even if we nerf him tenfold from the stated reaction time on panel, he should still be able to perceive 100-200 bullets per second, and deflect the majority of them with webs, if not his hands.

Don't know if that can be used for Spider-man, sure he had his powers, but it isn't like some clones made by Jackel aren't above Spider-Man(Kaine)so simply having his powers doesn't make this a feat for Spider-Man. It's inferior to Garou's feat regardless.

Kaine was an imperfect clone. Anyways, considering I already showed you the scan of Peter blitzing the spider-powered criminals, clearly these transferred spider-powers weren't quite as good as Peter's own...

Wasn't the comic written during the 80s or 90s? How fast could could they track at that time?

Nope, March 2005. As for tracking speed, I'm not too sure, but processors today can do billions of calculations per second. So, they should be able to track objects extremely quick...

There is another comic written during the 80s where Peter's speed made him untrackable by computer:

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I said exactly what I meant by it, comic artists sometimes have "afterimages" made by a character to just show movement, which is why I gave the example of DD, someone who isn't fast enough to create true after images. As for your example, can you prove those are real afterimages?

Yeah, I understood this part, but you didn't say/define what a "real" afterimage is. Which is why I can't properly respond.

Cool, Garou can move so fast that a bunch of Class S heroes can't even see him move, which is far better than moving at blur speeds.

Moving at blur speeds to Matt, who I showed you a bunch of speed feats for, is more impressive than Garou moving at blur speeds to a bunch of Class S heroes who you haven't shown any speed feats for. We can't just assume they are extremely quick, or that they have better reaction speeds than the average human. After all, Hulk would be in a higher class than Spidey, but he is significantly slower.

How in the world can you possibly compare deflecting hundreds of bullets every second while weakened,poisoned, and wounded to what DD is doing?The difference in speed needed to do what Garou did is leagues above everything Daredevil has ever or will ever do, to act like those feats are similar is actual downplay.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to compare DD deflecting a couple bullets to Garou deflecting hundreds. I was just showing that deflecting bullets isn't as impressive as you try to make it seem, as in those scans it clearly seems easier than to dodge and completely move out of the way. Also, I wanted to show how Peter moves as a blur to someone who is quick enough to deflet bullets in the first place.

You may have a point if Spider-Man dodged the initial attack and was tagged.But he was hit before he could do anything at all, and it was legit stated that Will O' The Wisp was faster so I'm not even sure how or why you're trying to argue Spider-Man can dodge light speed attacks.

Well, Will O' The Wisp moves at light speed, so of course he is faster. And the scan you posted specifically says "Spider Sense warning him of danger, Spider-Man tries to dodge aside." That means Peter did sense the attack, and did try to move out of the way but Will O The Wisp could just follow his movement and still hit him.

And Peter clearly can dodge light speed attacks due to his Spider Sense precognition/early warning. Without that, he would have a lot more trouble. Once again, I'm not trying to say Peter has light speed reflexes - my argument is that he has reflexes at around a microsecond level - but rather that his Spider Sense can enable him to consistently dodge even a few light speed attacks, until it gets overwhelmed.

Quite a few of them are aim dodging but hey, I'll be nice and pretend Spider-Man actually is fast enough to dodge light speed attacks. As hard as it may be to believe, Spider-Man would still be slower than Garou even if we did that.The reason for that is because Genos has dodged lasers too

And Garou is able to hold his own against a faster Genos just fine despite being heavily weakened,poisoned, wounded, and exhausted(from fighting 8 different heroes all at once).

This reasoning is faulty - just because Genos can dodge lasers doesn't mean his punches are coming as quick as lasers...

Spider-Man is a casual bullet timer, not someone who can dodge light speed attacks without pis.You're trying too hard to prove Spider-Man is faster when he isn't.

So far I've shown more proof of Peter being able to dodge light speed attacks with some effort and using his Spider Sense than you of him not being able to do so. In fact, I specifically only used instances where the lasers are confirmed as being light speed, while your Genos feat just uses generic lasers which you shouldn't just assume are light speed (since comic/manga lasers are often much slower than light speed unless specified otherwise).

And even if we do discount the dodging light speed stuff, just my feats of Peter dodging lightning blasts after they were fired is better than anything you showed for Garou IMO.

Unfortunately for you he has.

You didn't tell me what that even was, or give me even a ballpark of how fast that went. So how can you just say it was faster than a bullet...?

Overall Garou is definitely impressive, but I think dodging requires more speed than just deflecting (which requires more skill instead) and Peter has more feats of dodging quicker attacks than just bullets when compared to Garou. And Garou's FTE feats, which are good, just aren't up to par with Peter mving quicker than advanced targeting systems can track. The major factor here is that Peter's Spider Sense gives him a huge advantage in dodging anything of any speed, since he always has a constant head start.

And, just to cover all bases, I'll take a quick look at what could happen even if Garou is a bit faster than Peter. A good example would be how Peter deals with Speed Demon, a speedster who is much quicker than either Garou or Peter (for example, he can run from a bar in New York City all the way to the Turnpike in New Jersey - while carrying a man - in an instant).

However, all that speed is unable to stop Peter from still being able to tag him with his webs, easily avoid his charge attacks, and even surprise him by tagging him (albeit after waiting till Speed Demon moved in closer).

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Speed is something that Ken himself accels at, as evidenced by his fight with Arima, someone who blitzes bullet-timing Ghouls on a daily basis. That wasn't just a one-time deal though, as he has also dodged attacks from V Agents (who have been stated to equal Arima in speed):

Impressive, but I think the feat I showed earlier of Peter blitzing Daredevil is equal if not superior, since Daredevil is probably close in speed to Arima, but Peter was way quicker than him. Being able to tag the likes of Speed Demon is also better than that IMO.

Spider-Man's Durability vs Garou's Strength

Alright, I'll try to talk about Peter's own durability first here, before going on to talk about the armor.

I explained Garou was holding back, the reason was because Saitama at the time was only a Class B hero, so Garou had no reason at all to think he had to go all out. He had no reason to think that Saitama( a Class B hero) would have power surpassing all the Class S heroes we have seen so far.

I'll take your word for it, but I'm not sure what is the point of him holding back considering he is a villain?

As for the other feat I shown he was literally just jumping down, he wasn't trying to do anything else, so by no means is making little craters the peak of what Garou can do. That said in the scan with venom, those attacks weren't even cratering the ground, yet Spider-Man wasn't able to no sell them.

Umm, the only attack in that scan was Venom jumping off from the flying car and landing on Peter's head (as Mac himself says) with enough force to cause a huge explosion. And we also see there is a crater there in the ground on the middle of the second page.

Those feats were just to show Garou has feats better than one shotting Death Gatling, and if we look at feats Puri Puri Prisoner has, and scale them to TTM, it shows that it isn't inconsistent for Garou to do what he did against Metal Bat.

Okay, come on dude. Garou himself has no strength feats beyond making a few small craters in the ground, so you need to resort to scaling to show that Garou is impressive? To paraphrase you yourself: I would love to see an actual feat that says Garou could replicate that - not just 3 levels of scaling. If Garou himself has no impressive strength feats that don't come about by levels and levels of scaling, then maybe he isn't as strong as you think... Just a thought.

Anyways, you are extremely overselling the Metal Bat deflection feats.

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Garou himself states that he might have lost if Metal Bat had hit him for "real". That means, even when Garou was deflecting blows, they were only glancing blows rather than Metal Bat's full strength - because deflecting the full power of the blow would have required Garou to be properly hit by Metal Bat. When you deflect something, you need to both have the strength to catch/stop the blow, as well as the durability to not be harmed by catching the blow (since catching the blow is equivalent to being hit on your hand). Since Garou specifically states he doesn't have the durability to take one proper blow from Metal Bat, we also know he wasn't deflecting Metal Bat's full power blows, just glancing shots. Which means Garou is NOT strong enough to shake city blocks or crack buildings with his hits.

And this feeds in further to the fact that Garou has no really impressive strength feats which don't come from repeated scaling. Because Garou is not consistently nearly as physically strong as Metal Bat, or those other heroes.

Anyways, while Garou certainly isn't as strong as Metal Bat here, let's assume he is physically around the level of TTM as your scaling feats show (although I believe I've shown why even that is extremely dubious).

In that case, Peter is still good enough to take some hits from Garou:

1&2 - Spider-Man takes an attack from Nova that is strong enough to bring down a building, and then survives being buried underneath all that rubble from the building

3&4 - Spider-Man is unphased by Doc Ock dropping a bank building on him

5-7 - Spider-Man survives having Venom push a 10 story building on him

8 - Spider-Man takes a punch from Apocalypse

Apocalypse's strength is comparable (though usually lesser than) the Hulk's.

9 - Spider-Man takes a punch from an angry Absorbing Man

Absorbing Man is an extremely strong brick who can do things like lift up a passenger airplane.

10 - Spider-Man takes a charge from a raging Rhino

Rhino has comparable (though usually lesser) strength to Grey Hulk. And just to show you Peter can do this quite consistently, here is another beating Peter took from the Rhino, after being surprised by him and caught.

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However, probably his most impressive durability feat which isn't a complete outlier is him taking multiple hits from the Juggernaut:

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Juggernaut has comparable strength to Hulk and his blows can even cause earthquakes, but we can see Peter takes about 3 hits from Juggernaut without passing out or anything, though he is probably close to it. Admittedly, there is no way Juggernaut could use his full strength on Peter in that position (because Peter would have died real quick in that case), but even if that was around 10% (just something that seems like a plausible estimate given how Juggernaut had to punch) of Juggernaut's strength, it is still extremely impressive.

I will concede that Metal Bat's strength was more than an RPG though.

Not really, Garou is far faster, is STILL stronger, is far more, skilled and has the durability to tank everything Spider-Man has. Spider-Man has been overwhelmed by people with less advantages than Garou, like the Answer. All the answer had was the durability to tank punches from Spider-Man and superior speed, and that was enough to beat him to near unconsciousness.

Are you seriously saying Garou is quick enough to go full speedster and punch Spider-Man thousands of times in a second.... because none of your feats show Garou being able to go nearly that fast. Furthermore, I think I have shown Peter is as fast if not faster than Garou, so he will be able to dodge Garou's hits.

So, although I don't believe Garou quite has S-tier level strength, Peter has been shown taking hits from even stronger enemies in the comics, and still being able to fight. He has consistently been able to continue fighting after taking a couple blows from Hulk-level opponents, and is even better at taking blows from opponents a class below, but still stronger than Garou, such as Titania (who is around as strong as She-Hulk and can hold up collapsing buildings even when weakened) and Goliath (Hank Pym as Giant-Man - using the same tech as Goliath uses - can break buildings in half with ease, and this should scale to Goliath). And even if Garou's Flowing Water Crushed Rock move returns the same power as two of Spider-Man's punches, Peter has taken much stringer blows, as shown above. And the armor significantly amps Peter's durability, though I can't really say anything more specific than it being able to no-sell point blank RPG shots since it only appeared for like one issue. Either way, with all that there I think it is safe to say Peter can take whatever Garou has to dish out.

Spider-Man's Durability vs Ken's Strength/Weapons

I'll try to keep this one short.

I don't know how clear I was in my opener, but Ken was literally starving and injured when he performed the feat you're calling "throwing someone through concrete" (he slammed him all the way through a building).

Cool, but slamming someone through a building isn't even near the level of Spider-Man taking a hit from Goliath for example, who can break buildings in half (as I showed in the above section). Spider-Man has been hit through buildings multiple times, for example, by Mr. Negative:

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Admittedly, you said Ken was weak when he did that, so he can probably pull off some better feats at full strength. However, since that's all I really have to go on for now, I'll leave it there.

Speaking of shredding, Ken's Kagune is able to cut through Quinque that are far harder than steel (as I already presented in my opener), so neither Peter nor Norman will be safe without sufficient cutting resistance feats. Along with it's serious cutting power, Ken's Kagune is also the most versatile form of attack in this match, as Ken is capable of shaping it to his very will:

Impressive, but Peter's armor wasn't even dented by high powered sniper rifle shots, as I showed in an earlier post. Powerful bullets like those can actually go straight through metal (as shown in the list here) but clearly not Peter's armor. So I'm not sure if Ken's Kagune can go through Peter's armor.

Spider-Man vs Garou's Skill

First let me go through Garou's flowing water rock smashing fist move.

We're arguing wording here, the point is Garou's attack can send back 2x the power of his opponent, him doing it via punching or otherwise doesn't matter.

Fair enough.

Right... so showing me Spider-Man having the strength to slightly move two planetary being is somehow comparable to Garou being stated to have a move that hits with double his opponent's power? How? And how else could we know that the move does that without a statement? You seem to just be desperate.

I was just providing that statement as an example for why character statements should not be blindly taken as just fact, including this one. All we know from feats is that the technique can redirect attacks back at Garou's opponent. And Genos was able to counter/negate the effects of the technique, so it isn't infallible.

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Umm... TTM knows how strong he is?I think he should know what two times his own power is.

It's fair to assume that they were redirected at TTM more powerful than he himself could hit, but there's absolutely no way TTM could measure in exact terms how much more powerful Garou's blows were than his own after flowing water rock smashing.

Additionally, Garou himself says that he hates using Flowing Water Rock Smashing Fist since it reminds him of Bang. So I doubt he will use it against Peter unless he absolutely needs to (ie. he is getting beaten up hard), especially since he also enjoys challenging fights.

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And Spider-Man was tagged by people with less skill and speed than Garou.

And Garou has been blitzed and humiliated by TTM, who has less speed and skill than Peter. Not only that, he needed to be saved by a C-Class Rank 1 hero, who was able to react to TTM before Garou, and also take TTM's punch quite well.

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How about we just not use stupidly low-end feats, just like we haven't been using the absolute best high-end feats (well, I know I've been staying away from Peter's most high-end showings to avoid using outliers, and I'm assuming you have too)?

In fact this bring me to another point, that being pressure points(which Garou uses according to TTM). Spider-Man has been hurt by them just fine, like in his fight with Cap.

Spider-Man can recover from pressure point and nerve attacks almost instantaneously however, as seen when Peter fought Iron Fist.

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And I don't think that fight with Cap ever said Steve was hitting pressure points, it seemed more like PIS of Cap being able to fight quicker and hit hard enough to hurt Peter like that.

Furthermore, Garou has a bit of a disadvantage in one area - his martial arts style is only designed to work against human type attackers.

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And while Peter is human, so is Watch-Dog Man over here, so it's more about the style of attack than whether they are actually human. As we know, Peter can fight like a spider rather than a man, by using his powers to their full potential.

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There's a reason his fighting style is called "The Way of the Spider" or "Spider-Fu", and that's because Shang-Chi and Peter developed it to take full advantage of his spidery skills. In the first scan (even before training) we see Peter can fully use his arachnid instincts in a battle to overwhelm enemies. And in the 4th scan, Shang-Chi specifically states that Peter must go beyond the spider (indicating Peter's regular fighting style is also somewhat like a spider) in learning how to become properly trained. The second and third scans are just to show Peter's prowess with skills, but they also show how he can bounce off walls and do stuff like that as part of his fighting routine.

And in general, Peter's fighting style involves a lot of jumping off walls and stuff, as well as shooting webs around, in addition to the punches and kicks. Both the wall-crawling and web-spinning should be extremely strange/foreign to Garou, and should leave him unable to counter.

So it looks like, despite his skill advantage, Garou may have more trouble using his techniques and stuff like Flowing Water Rock Smashing Fist on Spider-Man than you originally thought, especially since he won't even use that in character.

Webbing

Okay, so this shouldn't take too long.

That's something his technique does.

You haven't shown me Garou's technique being able to redirect any sort of sticky/gooey substance. So there is no proof to think Garou's technique can just redirect any sort of attacks/chemicals. That's like saying, if there was poison gas in the air, Garou could use his technique to redirect that as well...

Especially considering that Garou says his techniques are only good against human attacks, it is even more likely Garou will have a tough time with webbing since it is more like an animal-based attack.

Show me peter doing it, because Ock doing it doesn't mean Peter will.

Okay, sure. Not only does Peter often use webs to capture and slow down enemies, he also specifically made new web fluids and web-shooting controls just to help him make wide nets and shoot web barrages and stuff.

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Nope, it wasn't your CaV which makes me think you were being more honest about it then due to you not having anything to gain by saying it.

Ahh okay. The difference between this strategy and that is that in their CaV, jashro was talking about Spider-Man using all his web fluid in a single attack, emptying out his cartridges and completely cocooning any enemies in his path, which he rarely ever does. I'm talking about Peter staying away and not getting too close, and using webbing to slow down and possibly distract enemies, as well as maybe even create a trap/barrier with the webs. And there is nothing OOC about Peter doing that. Here are some examples of what I was talking about:

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So overall, while Garou may be able to break through some amounts of webbing, it will still hinder him and slow him down, as I showed its strength in my previous post.

Some more useful feats:

1 - it can completely block machine gun bullets

2 - it can stretch over 50 feet

3 - the buildings it is attached to break before the webs themselves do

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As for Ken Kaneki, I think he may have a tough time cutting through the webbing as well. It is over twice as strong as steel and can't be cut by swords which aren't made with nano-ceramic fiber composite materials.

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I think that proves the webs will hinder both Garou and Kaneki at the least, and possibly incapacitate Ken if he is webbed in such a way he can't use his weapons to cut through - for example:

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Teamwork/Strategy

I'll just go over this really quick, to make some counters but not really introduce anything new.

Yeah it does, it implies they won't fight each other from the start, I mean Goblin is insane and killed his world's spider-man.It goes without saying that they won't get along.Goblin is also going to be going for the kill and Spider-Man doesn't like for anyone to do.

Well, we have basic teamwork so it's not like they will fight each other or anything. They will be willing to work together, though they might not be the most cohesive team.

Garou can find a way to adapt to Goblin's pyrokinetic abilities, but even if he doesn't he could easily go for incapacitating him with pressure points(making things easier for Ken) and move on to Spider-Man.

Has Garou ever adapted to pyrokinetic abilities before? Because you haven't shown him doing so, and we can't just assume he can adapt to anything he hasn't adapted to before. And how will Garou use pressure points on Norman if Norman gives off his fire aura? I don't even know if Norman is vulnerable to pressure points, but I'll leave that to @major_hellstorm.

He has experience leading a team, but I doubt Spider-Man will be taking orders from Goblin. Once again this will cause trouble with your team. And no, Garou hunts heroes alone, but he isn't stupid and if he sees the need to work with Ken Kaneki then he will.

Spider-Man also has extensive experience fighting alongside the Future Foundation and the Avengers, and isn't above working with supervillains to stop a more pertinent threat, so Peter can find a way to work with Goblin, at least for this fight. The most notable example would be Peter teaming up with Venom to stop Carnage in ASM 361 (despite the fact that Venom had almost killed Black Cat, terrorized and threatened MJ and Aunt May respectively, and wanted to kill Peter) to stop Carnage, but there are a bunch more examples here. So there really should be no trouble for this fight.

Garou hates the hypocrisy of heroes, how those that are popular are destined to always win, and those that are aren't well liked lose. Can you not say that he won't hate Spider-Man when your very opener calls him the world's greatest hero? He should, since he will have knowledge on his popularity, and he is literally the hero hunter for a reason. You arguing that he won't go for Spider-Man seems weird...I mean are you not confident that Spider-Man can win?

Spider-Man is called the world's greatest hero in a meta sense (ie. in our world everyone loves him). However, you've got to be kidding me if you think Spider-Man is a well-liked hero. Hell, one of the most enduring parts of Spider-Man's mythology is that he is hated and feared by the public, with editorials from the Bugle calling him a threat or menace. Even right now, Spider-Man is considered a national traitor with FBI chasing him. If anything, Garou might think Peter is a villain who he should be helping, not the other way around. And he certainly wouldn't hate Spider-Man for being so popular, if anything he would admire Peter for being so hated and still winning on occasion.

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Goblin hates and killed his version of Spider-Man, so prove to me he will work better with this version.

I'll leave @major_hellstorm to elaborate more on this, but I do know Osborn actually wanted Peter to join him and work with him for much of his storyline. So Osborn should be willing to work with Peter, and I already showed Peter will be able to work with Osborn to stop the more pertinent threat (you guys).

On the other hand, I don't think your team will fare as well. In character, Garou shows he clearly hates receiving help and tells other monsters who want to help him to piss off. The scans also show this isn't the first time he has refused their help, as they say they can't take no for an answer this time around.

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Overall, I still think our strategy of Osborn causing massive AoE damage, fires and explosions, and environmental destruction, while Peter hinders you guys with webs and acrobatic melee attacks should give us the win. If any of you tries to target Peter, they will face further disadvantage at having to both keep up with Peter's immense speed while also dodging Norman's huge fireball AoEs (which Peter's armor can protect from).

Conclusion

I think this shows that our strategy is still as good as ever - both Peter and Norman can equal if not exceed Garou and Ken physically, they have much better range in case they need to do a bit of a retreat, and Peter can keep up with, if not completely outstrip your team in speed. Furthermore, they are likely to be better able to work as a team than you guys, since they have better knowledge of each other. While your team does have a skill advantage, our team certainly has the range advantage, which I think is more effective (if we get out of range for you guys, your skills will be useless while we can still attack).

Specifically regarding Peter, I think I've shown how he is Garou's equal (if not better) physically, how his webs will hinder Garou, and how his fighting style will really throw Garou off his game. I think I've also shown that Peter shares similar advantages over Ken Kaneki, though I spent less time on that.

Overall, that pretty much sums up why I think our team takes this battle. It would definitely be a good fight IMO.

Since this is my final post, I'd also like to thank you guys for being awesome debaters and making this a fun experience for me. I definitely learned a lot about the characters here (especially Garou and Ken who I didn't even know existed before), and I think this experience will also help me improve my debating skills. Win or lose, I'm glad we did this debate! :)

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#89 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6899 posts) - - Show Bio

ARGH sorry ComicVine glitched and I lost half my post... I'm just going to give up on this for now and return to it tomorrow when I feel less demoralized from that... sorry guys

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#90 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6899 posts) - - Show Bio
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#91 Posted by ValorKnight (12695 posts) - - Show Bio
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#93 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: When do you think you will be able to get your post up? Cause if it is soon you guys might have to wait a week before I post.

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#94 Posted by ValorKnight (12695 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: When do you think you will be able to get your post up? Cause if it is soon you guys might have to wait a week before I post.

Probably not until Wednesday.

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#95 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6899 posts) - - Show Bio
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#96 Posted by ValorKnight (12695 posts) - - Show Bio
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#97 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio
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#98 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18754 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm said:

@valor_175: When do you think you will be able to get your post up? Cause if it is soon you guys might have to wait a week before I post.

Probably not until Wednesday.

This Wednesday?

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#99 Posted by ValorKnight (12695 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175 said:
@major_hellstorm said:

@valor_175: When do you think you will be able to get your post up? Cause if it is soon you guys might have to wait a week before I post.

Probably not until Wednesday.

This Wednesday?

Yeah, unfortunately. I've been pretty busy lately, but I'll definitely have it up by Wednesday (probably before).

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#100 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18078 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: So I'm guessing before Wednesday is no longer an option. Lol.