CaV: Spartacus (webinyoureye11/Cintona/totu) VS Sandor Clegane (The_Red_Viper) ~~~[VOTING!!!!!!!]~~~

@the_red_viper: it should be up by 10 central tonight . I'll use totu's post heavily, but I'm also gonna go back and point out some things the previous debator had passed over.

Alright. So I can expect it by the end of the "Game of Thrones" season 7 episode 2. Sound good!

Round 2 - Counters

First, about Sandor gear

From the pics, one you used and also this

it looks like he have quite a little gap from his knees up. Now, from the book quote you provide it doesn't say how much his plate armor is covering him. Not knowing that, and going by the TV show one, thats a pretty big gap considering that a Spartacus who was just thrown in the arena to be executed did this to one of his adversaries

This is the whole fight, and we should consider that Spartacus was weakened and tortured before, he didn't had any gladiatorial training, was supposed to be executed there, and those 4 where iirc the best gladiators of Solonius ludus (the rival of Batiatus, the one who will take Spartacus)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_W6a3dCkwg

you can see there how he kills one by stabbing him through the gap under his helmet

Now about strenght.

When talking strength, Spartacus doesn't have the cleanest track record. I'm talking of course about the fight against Theokoles. Theokoles has no feats to suggest he is as strong as Sandor, and yet he was able to overwhelm both Spartacus AND Crixus simultaneously (and Crixus himself is also stronger than Spartacus). Each blow from Theokoles sent them reeling backwards like children, and they had to use a circumstantial clever trick to beat him. There's no reason to assume that Spartacus would fare any better against the Hound who is, by feats, stronger than Theokoles.

As you use a composite Sandor, let me also use a composite Theokoles (comics not just TV show), as you seem to use him as a benchmark (the clip contain the usual nudity, kinky and gore as the show). Not sure either from where you get Crixus is stronger than Spartacus?

https://vimeo.com/62888638

Anyway, to spare you some time and going to only couple feats, look at the minute 3:30 and then 9:30. First mark, Theokoles rip a man in half, with his bare hands, which is straight up superhuman and far above anything I see about Cleganes.

Second mark, Theokoles was stabbed in the chest, in the left side, with a gladius, at least half of the blade burried there. Incidentaly, thats where the heart is also located, and knowing how good was Oenomaus is pretty clear that he purposedly stabbed him in the heart. Theokoles doesn't seem fazed however, let alone looking as dying.

He actually spare Oenomaus after he randomly see his crying wife in the public, and ask him to take his sword out of his chest and go home or so hehe.

Theokoles, unlike Sandor, is really superhuman, both as strenght and as damage absorbing capacities

Spartacus's most popular strength feat that people ALWAYS bring up is this one, from the season 1 finale, where Spartacus uses Crixus's shield as leverage to jump up to the second-floor balcony of Batiatus's mansion:

While this feat is indeed pretty extreme, it does have one major flaw: it's an outlier feat. As in, a high-end feat that is inconsistent with other, similar showings. For example, there's this one from the Theokoles fight: Then there's also this one, from the show's very last episode, where Spartacus uses leverage to jump at Marcus Crassus.

Where you are wrong here, I believe, is that you think he should jump that far every time. Which he is not, he just need to jump enough to reach his target. If Theokoles or Crassus are 3-4 meters away in straight line he doesn't need to jump 5-6 meters up in the air to reach them. That would be bad even if you think he needs to strike his victim, which he would miss if jump either too far either too short. So I don't think this is an outlier at all and in fact put Spartacus at borderline superhuman levels.

Now, something about speed and skills, here is Spartacus killing Seddulus, a Germanic barbarian who get wild

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amrmWyKz48k

First, the actor who play Seddulus had also played the Mountain in first season of GoT if I am not mistake (Conan Stevens). He measure 213 cm, so quite a bit taller than 198 cm of the actor of Sandor, this to see the difference in size and reach compared with Spartacus

Now, looking at the scene. Seddulus thrown Agron on the ground, rise his sword and is about to strike him. Mira sees him at that moment, and yell at Spartacus, who is few meters away. He turns around, see him and before even Seddulus come down enough with his sword to strike Agron, Spartacus draw his own sword from the sheat (he doesn't even have it in his hand), close the distance of those couple meters and parry Seddulus strike.

Leaving aside the slow motion and considering this in real time, this is also a borderline superhuman reaction speed, well beyond what I see Sandor did.

Summary:

Even if Sandor have a much better armor and a better sword, he is just slightly more powerful at best, and even if he have a bigger size than Spartacus he is smaller than Seddulus for example, which Spartacus had no problem with.I won't even compare him with Theokoles, who isn't just bigger than him (in comics I think he is quite bigger as real size than the actor who plays him in the show) but is much stronger (probably better skilled too) and resilient, already at superhuman level

Spartacus dominate as skill, speed, reaction and reflexes, athleticism and stamina (I say even intelligence), and Sandor wearing a heavy armor and a helmet, while allow him a better protection it also weight him down and make his reactions slower (impede peripheral vision as well).

Spartacus have as such the speed, strenght and skills to close the distance, avoid or parry Sandor strikes and cut or stab in his weak points, helmet visor, openings around the helmet and especially joints and legs, as he did with those gladiators.

the above is credited to @totu thank you for all of the insight as I have never seen Spartacus. However, that doesn't mean I won't point out some minor flaws in your arguments proposed.

A brief analysis of previous arguments

First off I wanted to make a brief comment about a statement you made in the first post. I believe it is wrong. Furthermore, I believe it undermines what you are going for with this bait CaV

And finally, one more thing regarding gear that people often neglect when arguing these kinds of fights: the time gap. Spartacus is set in the Roman Empire era, around 100 BC, while "Game of Thrones"/"A Song of Ice and Fire" are set in a setting that resembles late-medieval times. Moreover, the story is actually inspired by wars and events that took place over the late 15th century. That is around 1,600 years of difference, in which technology moved forward quite a lot. The Hound's weapons and armor are made of castle-forged steel with far better quality than anything Spartacus has ever heard of. It's most likely that Sandor can even cut through Spartacus's swords, especially considering that he already did cut through swords made of castle-forged steel which is, as I explained, far superior to Spartacus's ancient steel:

I want to bring focus to this statement because it shows, that with equalized equipment, your arguments start to fall apart for 3 reasons. This

Spartacus won't know how to fight against a fully armored opponent (claim). However your statement begins to show light that on an even playing field, Sandor would begin to struggle. Simply put the battlefield isn't even. I would argue that this isn't even a true, fair, match of skill. That is what this debate should be a debate about skill and speed. This is because skill and speed can beat out reach, strength, and gear.

in this battle, Spartacus holds the advantage in technical skill and speed, however that advantage is not that big and is not enough to compensate for Sandor's advantages in strength and gear. I would like to elaborate more on the gear advantage. The two main things Sandor's gear earns him are reach, thanks to his longsword compared to Spartacus's twin shortswords (gladii), and durability, thanks to his plate armor compared to Spartacus who usually fights with nothing but a loincloth.

Reach advantage is very important. Not only is his longsword considerably longer than Spartacus's weapons, he is also far taller than Spartacus. In the books, his height is never mentioned (although it is stated that he is a very big man), but in the show, the actor (Rory McCann) he is almost 2 meters tall, compared to Andy whitfield who is only 1.80 meters tall. The Hound's massive reach advantage will make sure that he is the one who attacks first, and assures that Spartacus will be kept at bay and unable to effectively fight. Here's an example:

An interesting fact, however if we look at the fight between The Mountain and The Viper , we can see this reach and armor is easily overtaken with speed and skill. Furthermore, with my understanding of The Mountain, he is bigger and badder than The Hound. This is a claim, but I believe this is backed up by GoT show.

As the above shows the Mountain (in my opinion ) was beaten. When he was beaten, it was because of the Viper's speed and skill. Moreover, if the Viper would not have "gloated", I firmly believe that the Mountain would be dead right now (or more dead, whatever).

Next you move to talk about Sandor's speed. However, He didn't do what you claim, you use 2 different definitions of the word dodge.

As for speed, Spartacus is probably a little bit faster but it's not a huge difference. The Hound's speed is noted more than once in the show and especially in the books. For example, he dodged a knife throw from close range, that came by surprise, while he is stupid-drunk:

"The Tickler shrugged, straightened, and reached a hand behind his head to rub the back of his neck. Everything seemed to happen at once then; Sandor lurched to his feet, Polliver drew his longsword, and the Tickler's hand whipped around in a blur to send something silver flashing across the common room. If the Hound had not been moving, the knife might have cored the apple of his throat; instead it only grazed his ribs, and wound up quivering in the wall near the door."

the underlined portions are using 2 different meanings of the word dodge (though it isn't used in the 2nd section). When you say dodge, I believe it relates to total avoidance. However, the texts show that The Hound did not dodge the knife in your terms of the word. The knife just missed his throat. It still hit him.

This really degrades the quality of the feat.

So as you can see, a heavily drunk Sandor is already at least as fast as Spartacus as far as reaction speed goes. His best reaction feat is aim-dodging an arrow

However your feat of speed is dodging a knife when it is noted that he was already moving. We could compare speeds, but the arrow most likely traveled faster than the knife.

Not to mention reacting to other people's own strikes. Assuming Spartacus will be able to get in close enough to attack in the first place, and there's no reason to assume that really, Sandor is perfectly capable of dodging and parrying. It can be seen in his fight against the Frey soldiers from my opener, as well as in his fight against the Mountain (this is my favorite part):

Not that he needs to dodge really, because y'know, armor.

1) Based on how the Mountain is taller and stronger than the Hound, His attack would have surely done some terrible damage.

Finally, lets end on the focus of The Hound vs Brienne of Tarth

In summarry The Hound loses to a weaker , slower, and equally equipped woman (with less reach). He was injured before the fight, but this should speak loads to how well the Hound will deal with a person with less reach, but more speed and skill . The baseline for this fight should be The Mountain vs The Viper. This is more equivalent to the type of fight it will be.

@the_red_viper: tag, your it

@cintona: Cool. Will respond in a few hours from now, a day at most.

Round 3: Closing counters and arguments:

it looks like he have quite a little gap from his knees up. Now, from the book quote you provide it doesn't say how much his plate armor is covering him. Not knowing that, and going by the TV show one, thats a pretty big gap considering that a Spartacus who was just thrown in the arena to be executed did this to one of his adversaries

As I said, the armor in the show is inherently different from the books. No, his armor in the books isn't described in detail, but that just means that there's nothing unusual about it. It's standard plate armor. And standard plate armor covers your entire leg. If his armor would not have covered his legs from the knees up, it would have been unusual and it would have been specified. It's like assuming a sword wouldn't have a blade just because it isn't specifically mentioned.

This is the whole fight, and we should consider that Spartacus was weakened and tortured before, he didn't had any gladiatorial training, was supposed to be executed there, and those 4 where iirc the best gladiators of Solonius ludus (the rival of Batiatus, the one who will take Spartacus)

Yeah, I addressed this fight in my previous post. It's the one where he was completely helpless until his enemies dispersed and he was left against only one enemy.

And it's not like it was the first time he held a sword either. He didn't have gladiatorial training, true, but he did know how to fight. He was a seasoned soldier, the veteran of many battles at that point in life.

As you use a composite Sandor, let me also use a composite Theokoles (comics not just TV show), as you seem to use him as a benchmark (the clip contain the usual nudity, kinky and gore as the show). Not sure either from where you get Crixus is stronger than Spartacus?

I'll let you go with this one. I'm not going to start about the motion comics, I can easily prove that they are a non-legit source, even if you use composite version (we can discuss this some other time maybe), but I'll let it slide since it doesn't help your case either way.

Anyway, to spare you some time and going to only couple feats, look at the minute 3:30 and then 9:30. First mark, Theokoles rip a man in half, with his bare hands, which is straight up superhuman and far above anything I see about Cleganes.

Second mark, Theokoles was stabbed in the chest, in the left side, with a gladius, at least half of the blade burried there. Incidentaly, thats where the heart is also located, and knowing how good was Oenomaus is pretty clear that he purposedly stabbed him in the heart. Theokoles doesn't seem fazed however, let alone looking as dying.

He actually spare Oenomaus after he randomly see his crying wife in the public, and ask him to take his sword out of his chest and go home or so hehe.

Theokoles, unlike Sandor, is really superhuman, both as strenght and as damage absorbing capacities

I will admit that Theokoles's damage soak is insane. It's like he almost doesn't feel pain. However his strength is most definitely NOT above Sandor's. His one and only strength feat is tearing off a man's arm, which is definitely above human, but is not above Sandor. We have actually seen humans in GoT rip a man's arm off. And they weren't even average men, they were far below average. They were starving peasants. Here's the scene. You can hear throughout the video, starting at 1:46, that the people are hungry and are begging for food. Go to 2:43, you'll see a bunch of people pulling down the High Septon and a few seconds later one of them actually rips off his arm. And that was a hungry peasant, so skinny you can see his bones. And Sandor was matching 4 healthy men in strength. He could have ripped a man's arm off too if he wanted to.

But wait, there's more! Not only in "Game of Thrones" was a man's arm ripped off by average people, it happened in "Spartacus" too! Episode 6 of "War of the Damned" to be precise. Here you can see a few Romans doing it to a captured gladiator:

Either way, even if Theokoles's strength is somewhat comparable to Sandor's, that's still good enough for me. Theokoles still ragdolled both Spartacus AND Crixus around like children without even trying. Sandor can and will do the same. And in addition, that motion comic depicts a young Theokoles, in his physical prime. In his fight against Spartacus and Crixus, Theokoles was already a pretty old man. He was retired for years before this fight and only came back to the arena for the first time in years because Solonius paid him a lot for it. He wasn't as fit as he was in that motion comic and even then he could ragdoll Spartacus and Crixus with contemptuous ease.

Where you are wrong here, I believe, is that you think he should jump that far every time. Which he is not, he just need to jump enough to reach his target. If Theokoles or Crassus are 3-4 meters away in straight line he doesn't need to jump 5-6 meters up in the air to reach them. That would be bad even if you think he needs to strike his victim, which he would miss if jump either too far either too short. So I don't think this is an outlier at all and in fact put Spartacus at borderline superhuman levels.

It's very obvious that in all 3 examples I put forth of Spartacus jumping, that in each and every one of them Spartacus was giving it the best he can. He sprinted with all his power to achieve as much momentum as he can get before each jump. Why would he purposefully jump in front of Theokoles and not straight over him so he can stab him in the head? Why would he jump straight at Marcus Crassus and end up crashing to the ground if he could jump over him? Face it, the season 1 finale jump is an outlier.

Now, something about speed and skills, here is Spartacus killing Seddulus, a Germanic barbarian who get wild

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amrmWyKz48k

First, the actor who play Seddulus had also played the Mountain in first season of GoT if I am not mistake (Conan Stevens). He measure 213 cm, so quite a bit taller than 198 cm of the actor of Sandor, this to see the difference in size and reach compared with Spartacus

Now, looking at the scene. Seddulus thrown Agron on the ground, rise his sword and is about to strike him. Mira sees him at that moment, and yell at Spartacus, who is few meters away. He turns around, see him and before even Seddulus come down enough with his sword to strike Agron, Spartacus draw his own sword from the sheat (he doesn't even have it in his hand), close the distance of those couple meters and parry Seddulus strike.

Leaving aside the slow motion and considering this in real time, this is also a borderline superhuman reaction speed, well beyond what I see Sandor did.

Yeah, I remember that feat. Totu pointed it out in a discussion we had in the past and I already debunked it however it seems like he ignored it. So let's prove it again, once and for all, that this feat is nothing special.

First of all, let's look at context. You very comfortably posted a video that shows only 30 seconds of the scene. Here's the whole thing. As you can see, Sedullus was heavily drunk at that point, which obviously dulled his senses and awareness, meaning he wasn't at his peak performance. Then you can see that he was already injured at that point. 1:01 - he gets stabbed in the belly. 1:50, takes a punch and gets strangled by Crixus. And it was quite a punch judging by the fact he only gets up at 2:49. And then he gets strangled again, this time by Agron. Now that we're done with context, let's look at the feat itself:

This is the moment that Spartacus intervened:

Now, you say that Spartacus managed to react, draw his sword and cross that distance while Sedullus was in the middle of lowering his arm. Which is obviously wrong. You can clearly see in that GIF above that Sedullus was still raising his arm by the time Spartacus was there. Meaning that this:

Happened at the same time, or even slightly before this:

Mira called Spartacus as soon as Agron fell to the floor, or at best when Sedullus started raising his arm. The camera can only focus on one scene at a time which is why you might think otherwise, but it's easy to see that it is not the case. Unless Sedullus decided for some reason to raise his arm again after beginning to lower it. Which obviously isn't the case lol.

I also never understood what you (totu) are trying to achieve when pointing out that both Sedullus and Gregor Clegane were portrayed by Conan Stevens. That doesn't make them comparable. Same as you can't compare Crixus to CW Slade Wilson because just because they're both portrayed by Manu Bennett, or the Fresh Prince of Bel Air to Hancock just because they're both portrayed by Will Smith. Sedullus has all of zero feats that put him even close to Gregor.

Regarding the reach advantage, yes Sedullus had it on Spartacus too, but then again the height difference is not nearly as important as the difference in the length of their weapons. Both Sedullus and Spartacus carried identical swords, so the reach advantage was a couple of inches to Sedullus's favor at best. Sandor has at the very least 2 feet reach advantage on Spartacus thanks to carrying a longsword.

Even if Sandor have a much better armor and a better sword, he is just slightly more powerful at best, and even if he have a bigger size than Spartacus he is smaller than Seddulus for example, which Spartacus had no problem with.I won't even compare him with Theokoles, who isn't just bigger than him (in comics I think he is quite bigger as real size than the actor who plays him in the show) but is much stronger (probably better skilled too) and resilient, already at superhuman level

The problem is that you're taking Theokoles an equate him to Spartacus, which is wrong. Sandor might be only slightly more powerful than Theokoles, but Theokoles is FAR more powerful than Spartacus, making Sandor far more powerful than Spartacus as well. Theokoles's only strength feat has been replicated by starving peasants in GoT which takes away a lot from it, considering Sandor matches at least 4 healthy men in pure strength. Trying to equate Sandor to Theokoles is not a good decision on your end since Theokoles stomped Spartacus and Crixus combined and was only defeated by a circumstantial trick. The Hound tops the featless Theokoles in everything but sheer size, which already puts you at a very big disadvantage.

Spartacus dominate as skill, speed, reaction and reflexes, athleticism and stamina (I say even intelligence), and Sandor wearing a heavy armor and a helmet, while allow him a better protection it also weight him down and make his reactions slower (impede peripheral vision as well).

Spartacus holds the advantages in speed and raw martial skill, yes, but not by a large margin. Stamina too probably, but as I said, stamina only comes into play if a fight goes on for long enough and I am sure that this one will be over quickly. Sandor holds massive advantages in reach, durability, strength and the quality of his gear. You have not even once addressed the fact that Sandor can likely carve through Spartacus's own swords just like he did to Beric Dondarrion's sword. There's also the fact that Spartacus has never encountered medieval plate armor and doesn't know how to counter it, which you also very conveniently ignored.

Spartacus have as such the speed, strenght and skills to close the distance, avoid or parry Sandor strikes and cut or stab in his weak points, helmet visor, openings around the helmet and especially joints and legs, as he did with those gladiators.

You're basing your argument on Spartacus knowing where to attack. This isn't something that you should assume by default as I have proven in my first post already and you haven't countered that. Your only counter was trying to argue that there are openings in his armor as seen in the show whereas I stated numerous times that I am using the armor he has in the books. The only openings that he has are small and take familiarity with the armor in order to exploit, and Spartacus has no such familiarity, Also, again, how can Spartacus parry his strikes for long enough without getting his sword sliced in half, or best case scenario nicked and dulled to hell?

I want to bring focus to this statement because it shows, that with equalized equipment, your arguments start to fall apart for 3 reasons. This

I don't see how that matters because equipment is not equalized. They both have their standard gear.

Spartacus won't know how to fight against a fully armored opponent (claim). However your statement begins to show light that on an even playing field, Sandor would begin to struggle. Simply put the battlefield isn't even. I would argue that this isn't even a true, fair, match of skill. That is what this debate should be a debate about skill and speed. This is because skill and speed can beat out reach, strength, and gear.

No, a debate is about the characters as they are seen by default. Why are you trying to argue what would be the outcome if Sandor didn't have his standard gear? If that is your only hope at making a case then I'm afraid that this CaV is over before it even started. Skill and speed are not the only determinant factors in a fight. In fact, gear is a far bigger factor than any of those, generally speaking.

An interesting fact, however if we look at the fight between The Mountain and The Viper , we can see this reach and armor is easily overtaken with speed and skill. Furthermore, with my understanding of The Mountain, he is bigger and badder than The Hound. This is a claim, but I believe this is backed up by GoT show.

As I said, trying to use the Mountain VS the Viper as an analogy to this fight is inherently wrong. The gap between the Mountain and the Red Viper in almost every possible category is far larger than the gap between the Hound and Spartacus.

Also, the Red Viper might not be wearing plate armor, but unlike Spartacus, he knows the properties of armor. He was born, grew up and lived his whole life in Westeros, among plated knights. He knows what armor is, how it works and what its weaknesses are yet he chooses not to use it. Spartacus on the other hand, does not know what plate armor is, he wasn't even born in a time when it existed. He will see the Hound coming at him, an angry hunk of steel, and won't know what the hell he's supposed to do with it.

About reach, the one who had it in that fight was actually the Red Viper, not the Mountain. It might not be very evident in the show but in the books it was explicitly mentioned:

"The spear was two feet longer than Ser Gregor's sword, more than enough to keep him at an awkward distance."

A Storm of Swords

Bottom line, your whole argument here is moot.

As the above shows the Mountain (in my opinion ) was beaten. When he was beaten, it was because of the Viper's speed and skill. Moreover, if the Viper would not have "gloated", I firmly believe that the Mountain would be dead right now (or more dead, whatever).

I completely agree. but as I explained, speed and skill are not the only determinant factors in a fight. The Red Viper had many advantages that Spartacus doesn't have against Sandor.

Next you move to talk about Sandor's speed. However, He didn't do what you claim, you use 2 different definitions of the word dodge.

the underlined portions are using 2 different meanings of the word dodge (though it isn't used in the 2nd section). When you say dodge, I believe it relates to total avoidance. However, the texts show that The Hound did not dodge the knife in your terms of the word. The knife just missed his throat. It still hit him.

This really degrades the quality of the feat.

Dodged, avoided, reacted to, whatever. I'm not here to discuss semantics. The point of the feat was, that he could react and move to that knife throw, which came as a surprise attack, from close range, while he is heavily drunk. He didn't go all ninja and did a double backflip or anything, but it was explicitly stated in the text that the Hound moved at the very same moment as the Tickler began throwing the knife and that if he had not moved, the knife would have sliced his throat open, but instead it just grazed his ribs. If the definition of the word "dodged" bugs you that much then sure, OK, he didn't dodge. He reacted to it and avoided being killed by it with sheer reaction speed alone which was already dulled because he was heavily drunk. I would not be surprised if a sober Sandor could have dodged it completely, and even this partial avoidance feat is at least equal if not straight up above anything that Spartacus has displayed.

However your feat of speed is dodging a knife when it is noted that he was already moving. We could compare speeds, but the arrow most likely traveled faster than the knife.

He was moving because he reacted to the knife throw before the knife left the Tickler's hand. That's aim- dodging which is a reaction feat. Spartacus was moving because he was given a warning before Mira released the shot. That is also aim-dodging and the speed of the arrow is totally irrelevant, because aim-dodging means moving away before the projectile is fired. Not to mention that the arrow would not have hit him in the first place even if he didn't move which is very easy to see:

Mira was a very decent archer and aimed the arrow well enough so it wouldn't hit Spartacus in the first place. On the other hand, we know from the text that the Tickler aimed his knife directly at Sandor's throat and Sandor was only saved by the fact that he reacted and moved away as soon as the tickler started the throw.

Finally, lets end on the focus of The Hound vs Brienne of Tarth

Let's.

In summarry The Hound loses to a weaker , slower, and equally equipped woman (with less reach). He was injured before the fight, but this should speak loads to how well the Hound will deal with a person with less reach, but more speed and skill .

No, this shouldn't speak loads of anything. The Hound was weaker and slower due to a fever caused by a badly infected wound. He still gave Brienne the hardest fight of her life. If he was healthy he would have beaten her with relative ease, make no mistake. This fight is a good feat for Sandor's skill, savagery and endurance. He gave one of the realm's best fighters the fight of her life and could have one at numerous points throughout the fight even when he is sick, slow and weakened. Speed and skill are not the and-all-be-all factors of a fight, much less when the gap is not that big to begin with.

Final points:

• Sandor is far stronger than Spartacus. Theokoles, who is at the very best comparable to Sandor, was ragdolling Spartacus and Crixus like Lego figures thanks to strength alone. No reason why Sandor wouldn't do it as well.
• The only advantages Spartacus holds are speed and skill but the gap is not big enough to matter. Sandor's speed was noted and proven numerous times in the books and in the show, and his skill was demonstrated more than once as well.
• Sandor's armor will protect him from any hit not directed at the gaps. Spartacus doesn't know the properties of medieval plate armor, and therefore will have trouble countering it.
• Sandor's sword is made out of far more advanced steel. Considering how he cut through swords made out of steel equal to his own, it's very likely that he can cut through Spartacus's far inferior swords, or at the very least nick and dull them.
• Sandor can take a lot of punishment before going down.
• Sandor has far better reach than Spartacus by at least 2 feet if not more so.
• Most of Spartacus's feats can be easily debunked.

Anyway, my point remains as it has always been: Spartacus is nothing special. He is very Hollywood, which clouds people's judgement when trying to assess him. He is not superhuman, he is barely even peak human. His gear is antique and his raw skill and athleticism will not save him against an opponent like the Hound. Slow-mo and CGI blood can only take you this far. I hope that this CaV will make it so people stop saying silly things that are outright ridiculous, like Spartacus having a solid chance against Green Arrow, or that the only risk he has against the Hound is cancer. This blind wank has gotten out of hand which is why I was seeking for this CaV for so long.

Anyway, well debated guys - @webinyoureye11, @totu, @cintona. That's your final post, make it count.

As I said, the armor in the show is inherently different from the books. No, his armor in the books isn't described in detail, but that just means that there's nothing unusual about it. It's standard plate armor. And standard plate armor covers your entire leg. If his armor would not have covered his legs from the knees up, it would have been unusual and it would have been specified. It's like assuming a sword wouldn't have a blade just because it isn't specifically mentioned.

Considering your argument hinges on gear. I am assuming the picture in your first post is the gear he is wearing. However, standard plate armor and high quality plate armor are two different things. as standard armor (we will call it poor man's armor, which has many more openings than a rich man's plate armor) I found a source which points out some of the weaknesses of Rich man's plate armor.

Right, gushing aside, take a look at the armour (and don't forget to glance through the link; MyArmoury is a magnificent place). Basic, unavoidable fact: You cannot cut through plate.Properly-made plate is shaped, tempered, and hardened for maximum protection. It is specifically designed to ward off broad cutting edges. The curved surfaces will force most blows to simply glance off, and even assuming they do bite in, the steel is strong enough to resist most blows. Trust me on this: You are not getting through plate with a sword, not in the usual way.

You can also, I trust, identify the places where the armour isn't. There's just no beating plate. It's the closest you can get to 'invincible' in the Medieval Period. So - don't try and defeat plate. Instead, here's a little tip from the swordmasters of the time: Meet strength with weakness and weakness with strength. Go for the gaps.

The universal weaknesses of plate armour are the visor, the armpits, the elbow, and the 'seat area' where the body touches the saddle - the buttocks, the back of the thigh, the back of the knee, and the groin. Note that this is assuming full plate armour; suits of lesser coverage will have more weaknesses - the neck most particularly. Full plate is very good, but it's very expensive as well. Toby Capwell's suit would be the armour equivalent of a Bentley or a Rolls-Royce, in car terms (if I have the brands right).

https://www.quora.com/How-did-soldiers-die-while-wearing-a-suit-of-armor-or-other-historical-armor

Your biggest flaw in this entire argument is that Spartacus won't know how to deal with this armor. Your scenario is similar to PIS where he can't look for weaknesses. I believe that is a feeble argument at best. Here below is your most recent, atrocious , claim that indicates you believe Spartacus to be some inept combatant

You're basing your argument on Spartacus knowing where to attack. This isn't something that you should assume by default as I have proven in my first post already and you haven't countered that. Your only counter was trying to argue that there are openings in his armor as seen in the show whereas I stated numerous times that I am using the armor he has in the books. The only openings that he has are small and take familiarity with the armor in order to exploit, and Spartacus has no such familiarity, Also, again, how can Spartacus parry his strikes for long enough without getting his sword sliced in half, or best case scenario nicked and dulled to hell

However, in military and combat sense Spartacus has been proven to be very smart. This is a section from the wiki, which i would encourage all voter to read.

Altogether, Spartacus is a force to be reckoned with in both the arena and on the battlefield. His keen intellect and deadly skill combine to make him a true master of war. He is a skilled strategist and tactician and has knowledge of Roman strategy, having formerly served in the Roman Auxiliary under Glaber. These traits, coupled with his bold, proficient tactics have provided invaluable leadership to the rebel army, giving them an unblemished record in battle that would last, even when he met his intellectual and tactical equal, Marcus Licinius Crassus.

Furthermore, in the show, Sandor's attacks are slow. This probably has to do with his style of fighting which revolves around strength, reach, and armor. He does have a few instance of speed in the show, but it isn't even comparable to the speed displayed by Spartacus in the show, especially in the clips displayed in the previous posts.

However, as we can see in the The Mountain vs The Viper, a man with all of Sandor's advantages loses to a man with all of Spartacus' advantages.

About reach, the one who had it in that fight was actually the Red Viper, not the Mountain. It might not be very evident in the show but in the books it was explicitly mentioned:

Wrong. In the episode where The Mountain faces The Viper, The Viper does not use his reach. Contrarily, the attacks that do The Mountain in are CQC moves based on agility and combat prowess (skill). Which is clearly Spartacus' advantage in the fight. Sure, Viper had a weapon with longer reach. It may have made the mountain change his fighting style (which I do not see the change in comparison to his fight with the Hound) . But this maximizes the point that someone who has all of Sandor's qualities (increased stats in truth) was beaten by a man who has compareable attributes to Spartacus. The claim you make to refute this fact is that Spartacus won't be able to recognize this weakness, However, this is totally ignorant to the fact that Spartacus isa combat PRODIGY. HE IS INSANELY INTELLIGENT WHEN IT COMES TO COMBAT AND HOW TO USE HIS ADVANTAGES TO THE MAXIMUM.

You are continually lowballing Spartacus through this entire debate, which my side has shown, repeatedly, that Spartacus' speed, agility, and skill arent just comparable to Sandor's. They outclass, outrank, and destroy his qualities and advantages. Simply put, big, tall, and slow will lose to fast and agile.

Anyway, my point remains as it has always been: Spartacus is nothing special. He is very Hollywood, which clouds people's judgement when trying to assess him. He is not superhuman, he is barely even peak human. His gear is antique and his raw skill and athleticism will not save him against an opponent like the Hound. Slow-mo and CGI blood can only take you this far.

No, this shouldn't speak loads of anything. The Hound was weaker and slower due to a fever caused by a badly infected wound. He still gave Brienne the hardest fight of her life. If he was healthy he would have beaten her with relative ease, make no mistake. This fight is a good feat for Sandor's skill, savagery and endurance. He gave one of the realm's best fighters the fight of her life and could have one at numerous points throughout the fight even when he is sick, slow and weakened. Speed and skill are not the and-all-be-all factors of a fight, much less when the gap is not that big to begin with.

Sandor is one of the best swordfighter's in the realm. Stop acting like he is some underdog. He isn't. He is one of the Top 10 fighters in the realm. Perhaps he is just slightly below 2-handed Jamie, though that is a big claim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgqwHMwcZCE

Conclusion

First, you are not wrong, Sandor has better gear , weapons, and strength. However, these are qualities that can be overcome. Above I have posted a link which entails all of the weaknesses of his armor. You make the claim that Spartacus will not be able to figure out how to use these weaknesses. However, you don't even take time to describe his armor in detail and blatantly ignore Spartacus' combat genius. You make these claims in the air of Hollywood Illusion. More importantly, you have posted 3-4 different pictures of Sandor with different armor in all of them. (ALL OF THEM). Which armor is he using?

It's standard plate armor.

This is standard (rich man's) plate armor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munition_armour

I would assume that the standard poor man will have more openings

Second, and conclusively, you have made a scenario to prove the The Hound is somehow a better fighter than Spartacus. However, you have created a battlefield that is no where near close to level. The Hound has better gear and a summarily better position for the entire fight. More so, Spartacus starts with no knowledge and worse weapons. DESPITE THIS, We have proven that Spartacus is more than a match for Clegain in speed and skill. He outranks him in these categories similar how The Viper outranks The Mountain. You have spent all of your posts to lowball Spartacus at nearly every point for his strengths. claiming his feats are outliers and misconstrued. However, this same logic could be used against Sandor if we discount his log carrying (outside combat) and his speed swing (against mountain fodder).

Moreover, his true speed is show against Beric Dondarrion. He is summarily avoided and blocked for most of the fight against a man who is slower, and weaker than him. Sure he had fire, but it didn't change the fight too terribly much. You then want to try and say that The Hound will be able to take on someone even faster. I doubt it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO5BDIRFPcQ

I feel this needs to be stated one last time. In a confessed bait CaV, following a bait thread all created by a person who decided to make a scenario that isn't even close to fair playing field. You did this because you know that Sandor would lose on an even playing field. just like, despite the scenarios odds, SANDOR WILL STILL LOSE HERE BECAUSE HE LACKS THE ABILITY TO DEAL WITH SPARTACUS' SPEED.

@the_red_viper

@cintona:Tagging the voters:

@keenko: @cdiddyman911: @major_hellstorm: @six-deuce: @giliad_: @bullpr: @cfrehse: @xerolot: @foxerdes: @normanbates: @lubub55:

Your votes will be very much appreciated, but please make sure to give a detailed reasoning for your decision. It will help us make sure there are no biases and that the voting is fair, and also helps us improve. A vote that has no reasoning will not be counted.

@cintona:

Just to clear one thing up:

I feel this needs to be stated one last time. In a confessed bait CaV, following a bait thread all created by a person who decided to make a scenario that isn't even close to fair playing field.

I created a battle thread that I thought was perfectly fair with these exact conditions as in this CaV, except it was Sandor VS Spartacus+Agron. Most people said that Spartacus can solo with contemptuous ease, which I wanted to prove wrong.

@the_red_viper: Thanks for the tag. I will read and vote later this week.

I don't recall asking to be tagged..... get lost scrubs

Spartacus with ease. I am a rookie and unable to present a good case due to my technological shortcomings however. Spartacus has plenty of feats cutting directly through noric steel breastplates which are likely of higher quality than anything medival European knights had access to. This is with hacking motions also...not even stabbing. With superhuman cutting feats, with a huge speed and skill advantage.....Hound is toast.

Eh, let's say that @the_red_viper has won. His opponent just used a lot of flawed arguments and failed to prove that Spartacus will not have trouble with Sandor's strength and that Spartacus speed will really overwhelm the knight. I mean using Oberyn vs the Mountain as a example is really not right. The Mountain was slower than Sandor and Oberyn is completely different fighter style-wise than Spartacus. Sandor vs Berric? Fire doesn't change the fight much? I mean what? When Sandor was a kid he had his face BURNED ALIVE. He's in such trauma that he was almost too scared to come close to the fireplace! The fire is a huge factor. Or using Brienne vs Sandor as a valid feat that he loses to slower opponent. Sandor was heavily injured back then. Disease and diarrhea slowed him down and he couldn't even use one of his arms because of the pain. It's a flawed argument, thinking that this fight is a good feat to show his "lack of speed". What I disliked in this cav? Caps lock and bolding text in the last post. Viper's opponent seemed like a desperate who is trying to make Spartacus feats look stronger. Both sides are trying very, very hard to convince the other about Sandor's gear. That's fine. But when you are actually trying to talk about medieval-like gear and fighting try at least to do some research. From one side I have:

Your biggest flaw in this entire argument is that Spartacus won't know how to deal with this armor. Your scenario is similar to PIS where he can't look for weaknesses. I believe that is a feeble argument at best. Here below is your most recent, atrocious , claim that indicates you believe Spartacus to be some inept combatant

It's a complete bullshit. The person who has wrote this clearly has never fought in or watched any hema sparring. You think that breaking through Sandor's reach advantage AND penetrating his defense AND finding AND tagging weaknesses in the armour at once is an easy thing and only inept combatants can't do such thing. The only weakness in Sandor's armour are upper legs and it will be a challange for him to tag them due to so many disadvantages.

Sandor wearing a heavy armor and a helmet, while allow him a better protection it also weight him down and make his reactions slower (impede peripheral vision as well).

And here I laughed my ass off. Plate armor making people slower because it's "heavy" is a myth from hollywood movies. Actually in history a chainmail slowes down a knight much more than a plate armor. You can ask "why". Because the plate armor is designed to spread his weight over the entire, knight's body. Person in plate armor is not slowed down even when compared to a opponent without such armor. People in it can run, jump and make standard exercises without effort.

Don't get me wrong Viper has made some flawed points but those didn't triggered me as much as duplicating hollywood myths.

@xerolot:

Don't get me wrong Viper has made some flawed points

I'd love to hear what these points are. Anyway, thanks for the vote mate!

@the_red_viper: The most flawed thing in your gear logic is that person from antique times doesn't completely know what a plate armor is. Maybe not even in this cav but once you have said that "X (someone from antique times doesn't remember the name tho) will be scared because a person covered in metal will be coming for him". It was about the Mountain IIRC... anyway, here you have said that Spartacus don't know what plate armor is and he will have a lot of trouble in finding a weakness in it. It's half-true. Yeah full plate armor appeared in the late middle-ages that's true and finding a clear weakness in it, especially during a fight, is a challange. But the plate armor's grandfather and grandmother comes from the antique times. The greek hoplites and roman legionnaires weared armor very similar to knight's armor. Especially when we are talking about breastplates. Of course knight's plate armor is superior in almost every possible way but antique soldiers knew a concept of it. They weared the first plate armors in history and they will not be as much confused as you think. But overall your logic and arguments about gear superiority are good. It's a very important factor which many people ignore.

@xerolot: I was basing this argument on the fact that Spartacus has never encointered an enemy who wore that kind of armor. I think I did see somewhat similar armor in the show actually but it is irrelevant because Spartacus himself has not encountered it.

@the_red_viper: Yeah I'm aware of that. But he still lives in time when similar, far less advanced but similar armor was common so he will not be so confused. I understand your point that he doesn't have the knowledge to quickly find the weakness in such armor with what I agree. Especially when a common weakness of plate armor (armpits) is covered with chainmail in Sandor's armor.

@the_red_viper: I'd be interested in Aragorn vs The Mountain or Sandor CaV

I don't know Aragorn too well but from what I do know he should be considerably above either of them. I'm currently in an ongoing CaV with the Mountain so I'm not likely to use either of the brothers in a CaV soon, I don't like using characters over and over again too much.

@the_red_viper: @cintona: Lol Aragorn beats any fighter from Got. He has superhuman physicals even in the books

@the_red_viper: The post marius Romans used noric steel which was of similar quality to medieval European steel. There is no reason Spartacus could not just do this to the Hound.

@six-deuce: When you vote in a CaV, you vote based solely on the arguments presented by both parties. If there are arguments that you think could have made a difference but were not mentioned, then they are irrelevant.

In any case, the thing about the feat you just posted is that it never happened. This scene was part of a day-dream that Spartacus had when he tried to imagine what would happen if he tried to escape the ludos. Are you sure you watched the show?

First, this was fun, and even if unfortunately don't have enough time to offer longer replys and search too much for the posts, I think @cintona (and @webinyoureye11 as the starter) did an excellent continuation and a great job

As I see some explanation can be made, I will reply for now just to this

If you would have read all the posts, The_Red_Viper had said this

While in the show Sandor wears some weird, half-plate-half-chain type armor that is meant to give him a unique look among the cast, in the books he wears standard plate over chainmai

and also this

Even without the armor he is a lot larger, and the armor adds around 30 kg of weight on top of that.

Now, I don't know from where he get that weight number, maybe somewhere in a book, either way a combination of chain and plate it is felt as weight.

And that weight mentioned there, even for a large, solid person, its a significant weight.

Also, the helmet is significantly impede the vision, especially periferal vision.

In fact in the first clip you posted the unarmored guy said is more agile and quicker (yes, not way more agile but still visible more, he is tagging the other guy most of the time).

He also use a lot a special grip on his sword, reducing its reach or lenght as such, so there you go the hard to pass the reach advantage (which won't be something new for Spartacus anyway, as he fought against people armed with spears, longer axes or longer swords, Theokoles for example used longer one, probably the spatha, not the gladius).

Then they said they used a pretty correct replica of medieval gear, yet the blunt strikes where solidly felt by the armored guy, who also said has lost his breath (some problem increased by the helmet). If much, that clip more reinforce the idea that an unarmored or less armored but much more agile opponent can win against someone even in full plate armor (which was still an assumption that Snador was wearing a full one)

@the_red_viper: I stand corrected. I have watched the show...there was just so many scenes and so much materiel I showed an example I should not have.

Bump

Bump

I will start by saying that this debate quickly divulged into the armor vs skill argument. Viper argued that this armor and strength he had was too much for Spartacus and his worse equipment to deal with. The other two debaters stated that Spartacus was too fast and skilled. The main problem I had was that they tried to hard to show how slow Sandor was rather than how fast Spartacus. Also, I really don't see how Spartacus can defeat an opponent with that kind of armor.

My vote goes to @the_red_viper

@cdiddyman911: Thank you.

@cdiddyman911: By the way, didn't you say that there are things you would want to add?

I am voting for Spartacus for revenge! Nah, TRV won this IMO, in general he argued and countered better than his opponent, as Xerelot pointed out they made some flaws (except I do think plate would slow a person down but mostly due to limited movement and it being a tad bit harder to switch moumentum), this CaV kinda reminds me of Hit Girl vs Sandor in where it was armor and power vs speed, but like that CaV TRV was able to hammer down his points which were well argued.

@major_hellstorm: Thanks mate.

Bump

Bump

@cintona: When do you want to close the voting?

@the_red_viper: I believe you have enough votes to be declared the winner