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#1 Edited by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

Representing Spartacus:

No Caption Provided

@webinyoureye11

Representing Sandor Clegane, the Hound:

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-Yours Truly

Rules:

  • In character and determined to win.
  • No prep or prior knowledge.
  • Both combatants are in their prime.
  • Sandor is armed with a sword and a knife and is wearing his set of armor (including helmet).
  • Spartacus is armed with twin swords and is wearing his standard battle garments.
  • Sandor is novels/TV composite, upcoming season 7 feats are excluded.
  • Win by any means (with these two it will only end in death though if we're being honest).
  • Fight in a neutral environment, start 5 meters apart facing each other, broad daylight.

Voting rules:

  • This is a CaV, not a battle. Please do not discuss who you believe would win while debating is in progress.
  • If you are interested in voting on this battle, just ask and we will tag you when we're done.

Good luck and have fun!

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#2 Posted by lubub55 (12758 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#3 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@webinyoureye11 You wanna start or shall I? 3 posts is cool with you right?

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#4 Posted by deactivated-5ad4cb41c7fb8 (3527 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#5 Posted by foxerdes (9777 posts) - - Show Bio

And here we go, lol.

T4V

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#6 Posted by webinyoureye11 (5293 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: 3 posts and start when you want. I'm going through the shows for feats

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#7 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

Sandor's theme song for this fight:

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Introducing Sandor Clegane, the Hound:

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Sandor Clegane, better known as "The Hound", is the younger brother of House Clegane. He was introduced in the show/novels as Joffrey Baratheon's sworn shield (bodyguard).

The Hound is a hardened killer. He is extremely strong and not too shabby in the speed department either. Most people know him from the "Game of Thrones" TV show, but I will be using a TV and book composite version, where his fights have a little more detail in them, and his speed is more clearly shown and described.

Gear:

The Hound will wear his armor, and carry a sword, as well as a knife for back-up.

While in the show Sandor wears some weird, half-plate-half-chain type armor that is meant to give him a unique look among the cast, in the books he wears standard plate over chainmail:

"Sandor Clegane was stationed at the foot of the throne's steep narrow stair. He wore mail and soot-grey plate and his snarling dog's head helm."

A Game of Thrones
He uses a longsword that is suited for both one-handed and two-handed use:
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Gear is his main advantage over Spartacus in this fight, I will later explain why.

Strength:

The Hound is extremely strong, far stronger than Spratacus. Here for example he is shown carrying a large log over a large distance, while groups of 4 men are needed to carry similar logs:

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For more of a striking strength feat, here Sandor throws a very casual punch at Lord Beric Dondarrion. Beric wears plate armor, and still Sandor's punch is hard enough to make him lose his breath, send him reeling backwards and falling to one knee (important to note that Sandor was hungover in this fight):

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Skill:

Here, the Hound solos 3 soldiers in under 10 seconds:

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Also, here is his complete fight with Beric Dondarrion. As I said, the Hound was hungover, and in addition Beric was using a flaming sword. Sandor has a harsh phobia of fire (look how he flinches at 0:59), and him fighting and even beating a skilled opponent who uses a flaming sword is not something to scoff at.

Initial thoughts:

First of all, I must confess. The thread I created a few days ago was essentially bait. I created it for the sole purpose of finding a match for this exact CaV. I knew people would say that Spartacus can easily solo the Hound, and I knew I could seize the opportunity to challenge someone for this CaV which I wanted to do for a long while now but could not find an opponent for. I want to prove once and for all that the general consensus of "Spartacus" characters being far above "Game of Thrones" characters is simply wrong. Frankly, I think most people tend to overrate Spartacus due to all the slow-mo sequences, CGI blood and general badassery in the show. But when looking past all that, there's really no reason to say that it's true.

In this battle, Spartacus holds the advantage in technical skill and speed, however that advantage is not that big and is not enough to compensate for Sandor's advantages in strength and gear. I would like to elaborate more on the gear advantage. The two main things Sandor's gear earns him are reach, thanks to his longsword compared to Spartacus's twin shortswords (gladii), and durability, thanks to his plate armor compared to Spartacus who usually fights with nothing but a loincloth.

Reach advantage is very important. Not only is his longsword considerably longer than Spartacus's weapons, he is also far taller than Spartacus. In the books, his height is never mentioned (although it is stated that he is a very big man), but in the show, the actor (Rory McCann) he is almost 2 meters tall, compared to Andy whitfield who is only 1.80 meters tall. The Hound's massive reach advantage will make sure that he is the one who attacks first, and assures that Spartacus will be kept at bay and unable to effectively fight. Here's an example:

Here Sandor kills a man who is too far away to fight back:

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The armor gives the Hound massive durability advantage. Spartacus has almost no way of hurting him. It is shown in the books on several occasions that penetrating plate armor is pretty impossible:

"Khrazz cursed and turned a high cut into a low one, slipping past the old knight's blade for once, only to have his blow scrape uselessly off a white steel greave."

[...]

"Khrazz slashed at his arm and caught him, but the arakh could only chip the hard enamel before it met the steel below."

A Dance with Dragons

This is a quote from a fight between Ser Barristan Selmy and a pit-fighter named Khrazz. While it's true that it isn't Sandor's armor, it's still the exact same type of armor made of the exact same castle-forged steel, so it's totally irrelevant. There are more instances in this fight that show how useless Khrazz's weapon is against armor, but they're just more of the same.

The armor is made into an even bigger advantage by the fact that Spartacus has never fought a knight in full plate armor. The most he's ever seen is a little bit of scale armor here and there on Roman soldiers, which doesn't cover all of their bodies like medieval plate armor does. Fighting a man in armor requires knowledge on the properties and weaknesses of armor, as explained here:

"Khrazz did not know how to fight a man in armor. Ser Baristan could see it in his eyes: doubt, confusion, the beginning of fear."

A Dance with Dragons

And Spartacus does not know how to fight a man in armor. Unless you can prove otherwise, there's no reason to believe that he would fare any better against Sandor than Khrazz did against Barristan. Khrazz was also extremely fast so Spartacus's speed won't help him overcome this disadvantage:

"The pit fighter was fast, blazing fast, as quick as any man Ser Barristan had ever fought. In those big hands, the arakh became a whistling blur, a steel storm that seemed to come at the old knight from three directions at once."

A Dance with Dragons

And finally, one more thing regarding gear that people often neglect when arguing these kinds of fights: the time gap. Spartacus is set in the Roman Empire era, around 100 BC, while "Game of Thrones"/"A Song of Ice and Fire" are set in a setting that resembles late-medieval times. Moreover, the story is actually inspired by wars and events that took place over the late 15th century. That is around 1,600 years of difference, in which technology moved forward quite a lot. The Hound's weapons and armor are made of castle-forged steel with far better quality than anything Spartacus has ever heard of. It's most likely that Sandor can even cut through Spartacus's swords, especially considering that he already did cut through swords made of castle-forged steel which is, as I explained, far superior to Spartacus's ancient steel:

This is how his fight with Beric ended. With one overhead swing, Sandor cut clean through Beric's sword and buried his own blade almost a foot into Beric's torso:

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Also do take note that he was using a smaller sword there than he does usually.

That is everything in a nutshell about the gear advantage. Other than that, as I said, there's the strength advantage. When talking strength, Spartacus doesn't have the cleanest track record. I'm talking of course about the fight against Theokoles. Theokoles has no feats to suggest he is as strong as Sandor, and yet he was able to overwhelm both Spartacus AND Crixus simultaneously (and Crixus himself is also stronger than Spartacus). Each blow from Theokoles sent them reeling backwards like children, and they had to use a circumstantial clever trick to beat him. There's no reason to assume that Spartacus would fare any better against the Hound who is, by feats, stronger than Theokoles.

To sum it up, Spartacus is facing an opponent who outclasses him in strength, has a major reach advantage, and is wearing armor that Spartacus can't penetrate without knowing its weaknesses (which he doesn't), while he himself is unarmored. He uses gear that is literally antique compared to Sandor's and can even be destroyed by him. He may survive for a while thanks to his greater mobility but it will only help in delaying his inevitable defeat.

That being said, I do expect that you will bring up good arguments. Spartacus is no pushover in the slightest.

Your move mate, good luck!

@webinyoureye11

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#9 Posted by Xerolot (2965 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#10 Edited by cfrehse (2902 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#11 Posted by BullPR (5626 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please.

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#12 Posted by GIliad_ (6608 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel Hollywood has warped perceptions in regards to the difference armour and a bloody big sword makes...

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#13 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@giliad_ said:

I feel Hollywood has warped perceptions in regards to the difference armour and a bloody big sword makes...

"Your friend's dead, and Meryn Trant's not. 'Cause Trant had armor. And a big f***ing sword."

S. Clegane
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#14 Edited by Six-Deuce (943 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please, also...is this just TV Spartacus, or is web using feats for both show and books?

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#15 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please, also...is this just TV Spartacus, or is web using feats for both show and books?

It's the same rules as the thread from the other day.

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#16 Posted by GIliad_ (6608 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by webinyoureye11 (5293 posts) - - Show Bio
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I wanna start off by saying R.I.P. Andy Whitfield, who in my opinion was a great actor with the potential to take Hollywood by storm had he not sadly passed away after filming the first season of Spartacus. He was truly memorable in my eyes for the way he commanded respect, and his range of acting.

Spartacus was a man born of Thrace, who would be sold into slavery with his wife for rebelling against Legatus Glaber in the pilot episode. He was originally meant to be executed in the arena of Capua, but instead surprised the crowd by slaying the 4 gladiators that were tasked with killing him. His showing caught the eye of Batiatus, a lanista (owner of gladiators) who decided to purchase Spartacus and train him in the ways of gladiatorial combat. This would later prove to be a fatal mistake for both Batiatus and Glaber, as Spartacus led a rebellion against the Roman republic, and proved himself not only a fearsome combatant, but also an incredibly gifted tactician and leader.

Physicals

Can break stone with his fists
Can break stone with his fists
Can ragdoll men with his strikes
Can ragdoll men with his strikes
Can break a mans jaw off with a single swing
Can break a mans jaw off with a single swing
Can move after an arrow is fired form medium range (with warning)
Can move after an arrow is fired form medium range (with warning)
Is fast enough to kill a man before he swings his sword, and then kill another man behind him before the previous man begins his descent
Is fast enough to kill a man before he swings his sword, and then kill another man behind him before the previous man begins his descent

Skill

Spartacus is almost always outnumbered when he fights, and is able to engage multiple men at once.

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At the 3:40 ish mark, you can see Spartacus hold off numerous men alone so that his allies can prevent the roman generals from leaving.

At the 4:20 mark, he fights and defeats the leaders by himself, before casually decapitating them both at the same time

At the 5:35 mark, he uses some kind of ray mysterio move on 1 guard and takes down another guard with his sword simultaneously

At the 8:30ish mark, he bypasses a soldiers range advantage due to their spear

Since I know Sandor has a reach advantage, in this video you can see that Spartacus has no problem outmaneuvering 2 soldiers at once without a sword, nullifying their reach advantage with his skill.

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Opening thoughts

I fully believe skill, speed and stamina definitely go to Spartacus. What he lacks in reach, he makes up for in skill and strategy. While the plate armor will probably protect Sandor for the most part, Spartacus mainly kills his foes by going for throat strikes, which I believe are openings on armor (I have yet to see Sandor fully armored, so I'm only guessing he will have exposed areas) Nevertheless, Spartacus has proven time and again that he fights with his mind as well as his body. So I can see Spartacus finding an opening in the armor and attacking it.

Also, Oberyn Martell was able to remove the Mountains helmet in battle, so it can be done. And as strong as Sandor is, I don't believe he will be too strong for Spartacus to match. In my next post I will prove that Spartacus has fought opponents just as strong

Spartacus can parry Sandors strikes, get in close and knock his helmet off, or go for the throat. He can even disarm Sandor and beat him in hand to hand.

Overall, Spartacus has variety over Sandor, being skilled with or without a sword, having similar strength, better speed, and the skill to overcome Sandors advantages.

@the_red_viper you're up

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#18 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Keenko (5183 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#20 Posted by totu (749 posts) - - Show Bio

Finaly, the long awaited CaV hehe, and it looks really cool and interesting indeed

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#21 Edited by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

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Round 2 - counters:

That was a good post. However, there's nothing that puts him above Sandor even still.

Strength:

I think there's nothing much to say here, Sandor's strength is inhuman while Spartacus's strength isn't. I mean, sure, he is extremely strong by real world standards. But he still fits into that standard to begin with, which already puts him below Sandor. Spartacus's most popular strength feat that people ALWAYS bring up is this one, from the season 1 finale, where Spartacus uses Crixus's shield as leverage to jump up to the second-floor balcony of Batiatus's mansion:

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While this feat is indeed pretty extreme, it does have one major flaw: it's an outlier feat. As in, a high-end feat that is inconsistent with other, similar showings. In simple words, it's PIS. Spartacus has several other showings which are pretty identical to this one, where he uses an ally's shield or something else as leverage for a jump, but they're all far below this one. For example, there's this one from the Theokoles fight:

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It's pretty identical to that last one. Spartacus runs up to an ally's shield (it was even the very same ally with the very same shield in both cases) and uses it as leverage to jump. Except here, this jump is far inferior to the one from the season 1 finale. It's below even jumps that real-world athletes can perform, just look up any parkour compilation on YouTube and you'll see.

Then there's also this one, from the show's very last episode, where Spartacus uses leverage to jump at Marcus Crassus:

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Once again, it's the same idea, and while this feat is pretty nice it isn't even close to that first one. Which leads us to conclude that this feat of jumping to the 2nd story balcony is inconsistent with other showings of the same nature, and Spartacus's strength is not that impressive. I mean, sure, he is undoubtedly very strong and in excellent shape... for a human. But Sandor Clegane is above anything human, he is monstrous.

As for Sandor's own strength, while I believe that I did prove he is pretty high above Spartacus in my first post, I would like to expand some more on that. This is probably my favorite feat of Sandor's strength:

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What you see here is Sandor, in the midst of a large battle, cutting men in chain armor clean in half. One through the waist, and the other through his entire torso, in a diagonal cut that went clean from his left shoulder and down to his right hip. That's outright insane and this feat alone puts him above Spartacus and frankly above anyone else in the Spartacus-verse. The quality in the GIF is pretty crappy so here's the full video, you can get a better look at it here in case the GIF is not enough.

By the way, the GIF where Spartacus cuts a man's jaw open reminded me of this one:

"Blood splattered on the ceiling and walls. The blade caught Polliver's face, and when the Hound wrenched it loose half his head came with it."

A Storm of Swords

Also, you said:

And as strong as Sandor is, I don't believe he will be too strong for Spartacus to match. In my next post I will prove that Spartacus has fought opponents just as strong

Now that is not true. Sure, Spartacus has dealt with opponents stronger than himself, but none as strong as Sandor. The closest to match Sandor would probably be Theokoles, and as I pointed out in my opener, he schooled both Spartacus AND Crixus simultaneously. Not only that, but it was also after Theokoles purposefully let both of them gravely injure him, and to top it all off, Theokoless was well past his prime at that point, he was a pretty old man, considerably older than both Crixus and Spartacus. For comparison, let's take a look at Sandor's brief clash with his brother Gregor:

Fight can be seen here. As you can see, Sandor matched his brother in strength and even outright overpowered him at 3:10. And we're talking about Gregor goddamn Clegane here, the guy who can do this (yeah they switched actors like 3 times in the series, same character though):

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And this:

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And this:

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And especially this:

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And as you can see, Sandor contended with him evenly. Spartacus is not a threat.

Speed:

As for speed, Spartacus is probably a little bit faster but it's not a huge difference. The Hound's speed is noted more than once in the show and especially in the books. For example, he dodged a knife throw from close range, that came by surprise, while he is stupid-drunk:

"The Tickler shrugged, straightened, and reached a hand behind his head to rub the back of his neck. Everything seemed to happen at once then; Sandor lurched to his feet, Polliver drew his longsword, and the Tickler's hand whipped around in a blur to send something silver flashing across the common room. If the Hound had not been moving, the knife might have cored the apple of his throat; instead it only grazed his ribs, and wound up quivering in the wall near the door."

A Storm of Swords

And this was noted only 2 paragraphs later:

"The Hound's own cuts were sloppier, his parries rushed, his feet slow and clumsy. He's drunk, Arya realized with dismay. He drank too much too fast, with no food in his belly."

A Storm of Swords

So as you can see, a heavily drunk Sandor is already at least as fast as Spartacus as far as reaction speed goes. His best reaction feat is aim-dodging an arrow (and as you mentioned, he had warning. Mira called his name before she fired).

Not to mention reacting to other people's own strikes. Assuming Spartacus will be able to get in close enough to attack in the first place, and there's no reason to assume that really, Sandor is perfectly capable of dodging and parrying. It can be seen in his fight against the Frey soldiers from my opener, as well as in his fight against the Mountain (this is my favorite part):

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Not that he needs to dodge really, because y'know, armor.

I would also like to point out one additional time from the books where Sandor's speed was mentioned:

""Evil work." Strongboar filled his cup again. "Lady Mariya, Lady Amerei, your distress has moved me. You have my word, once Riverrun has fallen I shall return to hunt down the Hound and kill him for you. Dogn do not frighten me."

This one should. Both men were large and powerful, but Sandor Clegane was much quicker, and fought with a savagery that Lyle Crakehall could not hope to match."

A Feast for Crows

For good measure, Ser Lyle Crakehall AKA Strongboar is a renowned knight and one of the top commanders and warriors of the Westernlands. It is specifically mentioned that the Hound is far quicker than him.

While it's true that Spartacus is still faster than Sandor, he's still not Barry Allen. He is not untouchable and he can't avoid him for long. Slower and less skilled opponents than the Hound have tagged Spartacus in the past, and Sandor will tag him as well, the speed gap is not THAT big. Spartacus is also not the type to dance around his opponent and try wearing them out. He's very aggressive and usually relies on his strength and endurance to do the job for him, however here he doesn't hold his usual advantages.

Skill:

Spartacus is almost always outnumbered when he fights, and is able to engage multiple men at once.

That is true. However, when he's fighting by himself, I really don't recall any single time where he was left unscathed. He always gets tagged, and many times he is outright defeated yet manages to stay alive thanks to plot and context. For example here. Spartacus was on his knees, unarmed and helpless, and only managed to fight back at 1:10 because all his enemies except for one were too far away to intervene, busy interacting with the crowd, because they're gladiators and their job is to make the fights interesting. When the three others come back, he fights well enough but still gets tagged (1:26). A hit like that from someone like Sandor would send him to the floor, seeing as a much more casual hit from him sent Lord Beric Dondarrion to the floor as you have seen.

Another example can be seen here, where Spartacus fights 6 men. Those men were not even gladiators but just some criminals that were put in the arena for execution, and while Spartacus displayed some good moves, he got tagged multiple times and was brought to the floor at 1:00 and could barely move after that. Again, the only reason he didn't die was because his enemies were trying to prolong the fight in order to excite the crowd. He only got up once they stupidly decided to come at him one by one instead of overwhelming him again like they did before.

As for his various fights against the Romans that you brought up, well that doesn't say much, because they were Romans. I'm not saying that because they're all fodder, I'm saying that because they're far, far less than fodder. Really, the Romans in the show were all but useless. They were a disgrace. It doesn't matter whether real-life Romans were good fighters or not, because in the show they were worse than training dummies. They were good at fighting in formation and nothing more than that. Here for example, Ashur brutally beats 3 Romans simultaneously (also important to note that they were armored and he was not). And as Ashur himself said, he was the shittiest gladiator in his brotherhood. Which can be confirmed here, where he is defeated by Naevia. Naevia only had like, what? A few weeks of training? Before that she was just a serving girl, and the closest thing to a weapon she ever held was a kitchen knife. To make things worse, one of these Romans that Ashur defeated was Glaber's own second-in-command, he was relatively high-ranking and should have been better trained that most soldiers, and yet even he was still no match even for a loser such as Ashur. On top of all that, Ashur was after a really long time of being too badly injured to fight or train so he was rusty and untrained. He was in worse shape than he was when he was still considered the worst gladiator in his brotherhood. He was fodder, and he fodderized 3 Romans simultaneously, making them below fodder, which means that beating them in any way is just not impressive. At all.

Anyway, you have yet to post Spartacus's fights against noteworthy opponents which I look forward to. That would give me a bit more to work with.

Gear:

The gear is the main factor here still. You did address it a couple of times so let's see what we got here.

While the plate armor will probably protect Sandor for the most part, Spartacus mainly kills his foes by going for throat strikes, which I believe are openings on armor (I have yet to see Sandor fully armored, so I'm only guessing he will have exposed areas)

The throat is fully protected by a piece of armor called a gorget. It can be clearly seen here:

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While it isn't specifically mentioned that Sandor has a gorget in the books (I'm using the armor from the books after all), it's still a standard, must-have part to any suit of plate armor. Sandor's is no exception.

Also, Oberyn Martell was able to remove the Mountains helmet in battle, so it can be done.

The armor in the show (as a whole) is inherently different from the armor in the books which I am using here. In the books it is mentioned on several occasions that helmets are being fastened/bolted down to the gorgets when donning the armor. It's even specifically mentioned regarding Gregor's helmet when he fights Oberyn, ironically enough:

"flat-topped greathelm was bolted to his gorget, with breaths around the mouth and nose and a narrow slit for vision. The crest atop it was a stone fist."

A Storm of Swords

Regardless, your comparison is wrong. Oberyn is faster and more skilled than Spartacus while Gregor is not as fast or as skilled (or as smart) as Sandor. Even if taking the Hound's helmet off was possible, Spartacus would still have to get in too dangerously close and that would make him an extremely easy target for something like this:

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Nevertheless, Spartacus has proven time and again that he fights with his mind as well as his body. So I can see Spartacus finding an opening in the armor and attacking it.

He might be able to find an opening in the armor, but I doubt it. As I have proven above, fighting against plate armor takes knowledge on the properties of the armor. Khrazz, the guy who fought Barristan Selmy and lost because he didn't know how to fight a man in armor, was a pit fighter - which is, comfortably enough, a gladiator. A slave that fights other slaves in the arena in front of a giant crowd. And Khrazz, like Spartacus, was also a champion of the arena. He fought enemies of all shapes and sizes:

"Pale Qartheen, black Summer Islanders, copper-skinned Dothraki, Tyroshi with blue beards, Lamb Men, Jogos Nhai, sullen Braavosi, brindle-skinned half-men from the jungles of Sothoryos-from the ends of the world they came to die in Daznak's pit."

A Dance with Dragons

And yet not knowing how to fight an armored man was his downfall. You have yet to prove that Spartacus can counter armor any better than Khrazz.

Spartacus can parry Sandors strikes, get in close and knock his helmet off, or go for the throat. He can even disarm Sandor and beat him in hand to hand.

The parrying part bugs me. As I pointed out and you haven't addressed, Sandor's sword is made of far more advanced steel than Spartacus's swords, and Sandor has shown that he can cut even through steel equal to his own and then some. Cutting through Spartacus's swords is perfectly in his ballpark and very likely to happen too, all things considered. Even if it does not happen, crossing swords with the Hound will completely nick and dull Spartacus's swords, due to the metal being inferior.

As for beating him in hand to hand... well that is just not going to happen. Sure, Spartacus is very skilled in hand to hand. And I mean, very skilled. Really, credit is given when credit is due. But he's welcome to try punching a man in steel plate armor all he wants, it will only end up in Spartacus breaking his own wrists. Trying to grapple with him is also way out of the question. He can't strangle a throat protected by a steel gorget and the ridiculously massive strength and size gap will make it so he can't arm-lock or put him in a submission. Not only that, but Sandor is also far heavier that Spartacus. Even without the armor he is a lot larger, and the armor adds around 30 kg of weight on top of that. 30 kg is more than the difference between the "Featherweight" and "Light-Heavyweight" categories in MMA. And it's not that Sandor is without skill himself:

Here he breaks the neck of Biter, who attacked him by surprise:

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His skill and savagery at unarmed combat can also be seen here, in the second half of his fight with Brienne of Tarth. Brienne should also be about as strong as Spartacus and also weighs a lot more (again, thanks to her armor), and Sandor can grapple with her and even throw her like a child (3:43). Brienne ultimately won, but this fight was very circumstantial, I'll elaborate soon.

Also, in this fight you can see Sandor employing unarmed strikes such as kicks, punches and even sweeps at numerous points, and also do take note of how devastating each individual of his hits are (as seen in 1:39 for example, as well as 1:51 and 2:19, among other highlights that you can see for yourself). Also, important to note that it's the show's parallel to the fight where he dodged the throwing knife in the book. And same as in the book, he was heavily drunk here as well, as seen in 0:38 when he chugs a whole tankard of ale with no food in his belly. It's also important to note that even when Sandor was down on the floor with 2 enemies standing above him, he was still able to fight just fine:

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Compare this to Spartacus who, whenever he is flat on his back is always inches from death and is only saved by plot and context, as noted above in 2 different examples.

Taking a small and lightweight fighter and putting him against someone who is far bigger and heavier who also possesses a fair amount of skill is never a good idea. It will be like the Conor McGregor VS Nate Diaz fight, and we know well enough how that one ended, except this time Diaz is also wearing armor. Just look at the Theokoles fight again, Theokoles's strength and size were enough to overwhelm Spartacus and Crixus combined.

Now, something that I haven't brought up yet:

Endurance:

While it's true that Spartacus has some great feats of enduring injuries, Sandor is outright unbelievable in that department as well. Let's take another look at his fight against Brienne. As you can see, the fight was outright brutal. Both Sandor and Brienne took some savage hits in this fight, with Brienne ultimately winning. The Hound took very nasty injuries: both his palms were sliced open (3:28), he took a brutal punch to the huevos (3:41), his ear was bitten off (4:00), he took repeated hits to the head with a rock (4:09), and then he took a flurry of punches to the face until he tumbled off the goddamn cliff (4:23). All of this happened while he was suffering from an infection caused by this festering wound (these screenshots are from a scene that took place several days before the fight with Brienne which means that his condition was getting even worse):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is why the fight was so circumstantial by the way, if he was healthy he would have defeated her based on their individual feats, as he is much stronger and more skilled and experienced. It was stated by Arya that he was moving a lot slower than usual since he took that wound, which he acknowledged (here). Anyway, he suffered all of this punishment while he is feverish with an infection, and he was still conscious as seen here. Surviving this is outright insane, let alone remaining conscious after all this. Even if Spartacus can injure the Hound, which I highly doubt in the first place, the Hound can still fight through it. The same can't be said on Spartacus I think, even though he does have incredible endurance, but nothing on this level.

Summary:

You said that Spartacus holds the advantage in skill, speed and stamina. While that is all true, the gap is not at all large. Spartacus is faster than Sandor, but not to the degree of Sandor not being able to touch him, far from it. He is more skilled than Sandor, but by a very small margin, and his unarmed skill is totally useless when fighting a fully armored opponent. He has better stamina, but stamina only comes into play if a fight goes on for long enough and I doubt it will go for so long that Sandor will start to wear out.

On the other hand, Sandor holds very big advantages in strength, reach, durability, endurance and quality of his gear. Spartacus will have to find a way of getting inside the reach of the Hound's longsword without having his own weapons cleaved in half, figure out how to counter the Hound's plate armor, and inflict enough injuries to get past his insane endurance, all the while avoiding getting overwhelmed by the combination of the Hound's far superior strength and size as well as his great skill and speed, which may not be as good as Spartacus's own, but are still damn good.

All in all, Spartacus is outmatched here. It's like taking an elite spec-ops soldier against a tank. The spec-ops soldier might have more mobility and great skill, but he cant hope to harm the tank in any way and he doesn't pack near as much firepower as the tank either.

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#22 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by the_wspanialy (3639 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#24 Edited by webinyoureye11 (5293 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I concede. I wasn't aware there were no openings on sandors armor

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#25 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Edited by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

Anybody wanna take over for web? He's content not to get this over with.

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#27 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by Keenko (5183 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Sure, I dunno shit about Spartacus so i'd have to use another character but I'd be down with a debate.

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#29 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@keenko said:

@the_red_viper: Sure, I dunno shit about Spartacus so i'd have to use another character but I'd be down with a debate.

I'd really like to resume/restart this one though. But I can take you on another debate regardless I guess.

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#30 Posted by Xerolot (2965 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I don't know anything about Spartacus besides the historic knowledge about his gear and how the gladiators have fought in the past. I come here to watch a massacre when plated knight will meet a half-naked gladiator but I guess you have won anyway :P

I don't have characters from such low street tier to match Sandor in 1vs1 combat. I don't want to use other characters from Gotverse and Vernon Roche is too outmatched by far superior gear and strenght to be a good match.

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#31 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot said:

@the_red_viper: I don't know anything about Spartacus besides the historic knowledge about his gear and how the gladiators have fought in the past. I come here to watch a massacre when plated knight will meet a half-naked gladiator but I guess you have won anyway :P

I don't have characters from such low street tier to match Sandor in 1vs1 combat. I don't want to use other characters from Gotverse and Vernon Roche is too outmatched by far superior gear and strenght to be a good match.

I need to see this match through. Too many people are so convinced that Spartacus can stomp any GoT character and I want to prove them wrong once and for all.

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#32 Posted by Keenko (5183 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Good luck finding another opponent for this, tbh, you'll be hard pressed to find someone to pick up for web. I've never seen Spartacus in a CAV before this. That said he conceded so you did win. Just hit me up if you change your mind

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#33 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@keenko said:

@the_red_viper: Good luck finding another opponent for this, tbh, you'll be hard pressed to find someone to pick up for web. I've never seen Spartacus in a CAV before this. That said he conceded so you did win. Just hit me up if you change your mind

I don't mind having a CaV with you, I just wanna use the Hound against Spartacus (or another Spartacus character) exclusively right now. I have other characters that I can use so PM me what characters you wanna use and we'll take it from there.

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#34 Edited by cfrehse (2902 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: @the_red_viper: @the_red_viper: i actully would love to do this if i had the time but i dont right now. He is one of my favorite characters. I have seen all the seasons. It would take me a long time to create the clips for his feats .

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#35 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@cfrehse: Well if you change your mind let me know.

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#36 Edited by totu (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@cfrehse: Well if you change your mind let me know.

Well, I don't have either much time, but I can take over from where was left and try to finish it, and if you and @cfrehse wish can make another one sometime later.

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#37 Edited by totu (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper I am not very familiar with the form and as I said I don't have too much time, so apologize if it will look a bit messy

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#38 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@totu said:
@the_red_viper said:

@cfrehse: Well if you change your mind let me know.

Well, I don't have either much time, but I can take over from where was left and try to finish it, and if you and @cfrehse wish can make another one sometime later.

Well @cintona offered to take up the reins too. I don't mind which one of you picks it up, really.

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#39 Posted by totu (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@totu said:
@the_red_viper said:

@cfrehse: Well if you change your mind let me know.

Well, I don't have either much time, but I can take over from where was left and try to finish it, and if you and @cfrehse wish can make another one sometime later.

Well @cintona offered to take up the reins too. I don't mind which one of you picks it up, really.

Ah, I see, it looks like we gang up on you hehe. As I said, I am not that familiar with this and sorry if I already moved in with the post before discuss it more previously.

Maybe @cintona can also post his one and you can ask the other guys who wanted a 2vs2, to helo with a reply if you think you'll get bogged down by too many replies.

Or, if @cintona already said can do this he can take over further as I said I don't have that much time, (really unfortunately), and you can reply to him or both, is no need for a rush

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#40 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@totu: I actually didn't even see you posted your own reply. We posted around the same time. I didn't read it yet but I think you might wanna delete it and copy/paste it to a PM with @cintona so you can fashion something together. Or we can start over and do a 2v2 if @foxerdes is interested.

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#41 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@totu: Or I can just reply to this one and debate with him some other time. Whatever you guys prefer.

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#42 Edited by totu (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Well, sorry I had sort of messed up this, didn't know somebody else had already took the challenge by the time I posted, and as he have more time for this he might move on better I assume.

I say you wait a bit and see what @cintona will say. If he thinks he can use what I posted (or add more to that, make some changes) and take over from there, thats fine by me, or if he say he will prefer to come with something completely of his own then you can skip my post and answer only to him for now. I send him a PM, and wait to see how things will go

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#43 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@totu: I think you should copy/paste your post into that PM and then delete it from this thread to avoid confusion. Worse comes to worst you can always re-post it here.

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#44 Posted by Cintona (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I'll definitely take over from the original debaters last post. Totu and I are just figuring out how to proceed.

I'll probably get a post up by end of day if everything works out. But I'd definitely be interested in a 2v2 with Toto post this CaV

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#45 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Lol. We had a whole debate about weak spots. Also I said this on the PM but T4V, this seems like it will continue.

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#46 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@cintona: So you're making a whole new post right now?

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#47 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Lol. We had a whole debate about weak spots. Also I said this on the PM but T4V, this seems like it will continue.

Yeah it will continue I guess, but I dunno if it will continue here, or start over, or who my opponent will be =P

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#48 Posted by totu (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm said:

@the_red_viper: Lol. We had a whole debate about weak spots. Also I said this on the PM but T4V, this seems like it will continue.

Yeah it will continue I guess, but I dunno if it will continue here, or start over, or who my opponent will be =P

OK, I deleted my post here, and @cintona will pick up from there and will post himself some new one, soon when he will be ready

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#49 Posted by the_red_viper (12533 posts) - - Show Bio

@totu said:
@the_red_viper said:
@major_hellstorm said:

@the_red_viper: Lol. We had a whole debate about weak spots. Also I said this on the PM but T4V, this seems like it will continue.

Yeah it will continue I guess, but I dunno if it will continue here, or start over, or who my opponent will be =P

OK, I deleted my post here, and @cintona will pick up from there and will post himself some new one, soon when he will be ready

Cool.

@cintona, you have 2 more posts, and I have one.

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#50 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for votes please, I have some stuff to say. Excited to see how it finishes!