Get ready for round 3, bub ;)
First let me start off by addressing your arguments.
In regards to the limo flip, while yes Matt's arms were doing their fair share of lifting, the feat was still a joint effort between his entire body, arms, legs, and back, so it's not a good indication of striking power. And all he did was flip it over, so it's not like he was really supporting the full 3,000 lb+ weight of it.
I feel like people are going to think I'm lowballing the feat to hell, but believe me I'm not. It's one of Daredevil's greatest showings and it definitely proves without a doubt that he is peak human. However, the character still sacrificed power for speed for the most part, and consistently lags behind other characters like Captain America in raw strength. This is a consistent thing with Daredevil's character, there have been a bunch of instances in the past where he's fought robots or some other thing that he couldn't injure by conventional means and had to resort to other tactics (that's why he has so many pressure point showings). Nuke is a classic example, the guy got KOd by an angry Steve Rogers but Matt Murdock hurt his hand touching him. And again I'm really not lowballing, because I freely admit that Nuke is SUPER powerful, and failing to hurt him is really not a mark against Daredevil. However, that said, what did Solid Snake do against a character of similar ability?
He beat him to the point of complete exhaustion.
Liquid Snake was genetically created to be an unstoppable war machine with dominant soldier genes. Throughout the entire game, nothing was ever shown capable of injuring him. He was eating Stinger Missiles like they were nothing, and came out of Metal Gear REX's explosion completely unscathed despite sitting inside it's cockpit. Captain America can jump from helicopters when they're at low altitudes, but Liquid Snake survived his helicopter freefalling to the ground from above the communications tower (a good 500 feet in the air) which then exploded into a fireball so massive, it could be seen rising above said tower's roof. And he wasn't hurt. Liquid can even take a gatling gun unloading into his chest and continue walking. All that said, Snake's blows were the only things capable of fazing him (and the FOXDIE virus which effectively forced all his heart cells to commit suicide... but that's not exactly a low showing)
Now tell me, can Daredevil come anywhere close to replicating any of those feats for Liquid? And Solid Snake beat Liquid in under 3 minutes (that's how long they had before the nuclear bomb Liquid planted detonated). So it's not like that was a drawn out fight where Snake's damage accumulated, no, his punches are just, well, stronger than any of the half-dozen Stinger Missiles Liquid tanked.
This striking power is consistent. Besides Liquid, Solid Snake could also physically beat Frank Jaeger through his cyborg exoskeleton to the point where the guy was on his knees gasping for breath (as I showed above). This is the same exoskeleton that caught Metal Gear REX's kick, and withstood being stomped on by it afterwards.
So again, I don't see Daredevil withstanding more than a handful of hits that strong. Old Snake's punch actually created a small shockwave when it collided with Ocelot's during MGS4, so very very consistent.
In terms of damage output, Snake is just at an absolutely massive advantage, not only because of his strength, but his durability. Whereas Matt Murdock will struggle to maintain consciousness after a couple minutes of taking hits from this super soldier, Snake will go virtually unfazed by the vigilante's strikes. I mean flipping a 3,000 pound limo is one thing, but Gray Fox overpowering REX's 505 ton leg with one arm is another thing entirely. And how does Snake react to a punch from someone like that?
He goes unfazed and immediately counterattacks.
And you're saying Daredevil can knock this guy out? Even more impressive is when Snake survived getting launched by Metal Gear RAY, which was far more powerful than REX.
RAY weighed just as much as REX, maybe a little bit more, but it's legs were powerful enough to propel it tens of meters through the air and do friggin backflips. Snake was knocked out for a couple minutes, but getting rocketed into a reinforced wall by legs that powerful, I'd say it's a miracle he wasn't reduced to a smear.
The best thing about Snake's durability is, unlike characters like Deathstroke and Ultimate Captain America, who tank hits from 100+ tonners and then get KOd by peak humans in the next issue, Solid Snake's durability remains consistent in his fights against street levelers. He quickly recovered from Vamp slamming him into a wall and slicing open his arm, and I already showed you a clip where Liquid Snake's best hits failed. Both were above peak human. But perhaps most impressively, was in his fight with Ocelot.
The whole fight is pretty much Snake's ultimate martial arts showing (more on that later) but the most notable instance is when Ocelot has Snake on the ground and just wails at his face over and over nearly two dozen times. Now, Ocelot as a teenager heaved around a motorcycle and at the age of 60-something could make vertical leaps 40+ feet in the air. Striking wise, that same punch he delivers to Snake left a massive dent in solid steel in this same fight, meaning Snake's nose>steel. Honestly I think that makes sense given his showings against 100 tonners and giant robots.
Daredevil doesn't have striking feats anywhere close to Ocelot leaving an imprint in Outer Haven's hull. If his hits couldn't draw a drop of blood, you expect Daredevil to knock Snake completely out cold? Not likely. And just FTR yes, that assault did not injure Snake very much since they continued this fight until sunset. If anything he was tired on account of being like, 80, and just having run an inhuman endurance gauntlet known as the entire freaking game.
So to summarize:
- Solid Snake beats up Cyborgs, 100 tonners, and his genetically super brother>>>peak human Daredevil.
- Solid Snake takes hits from Cyborgs, 100 tonners, and his genetically superior brother>>>peak human Daredevil.
I am just pointing out that Daredevil has the means to compete strength wise with Solid Snake.
Honestly, I simply disagree :(
Add in those devastating kicks that you mentioned will start building cumulative damage on Solid Snake as the battle rages on.
If this were a "Can Daredevil knock out a paralyzed Solid Snake?" debate then I'd agree with you. However, you forget to factor in the fact that Matt will be taking damage at the same time, and given the feats we've both provided provided, it should be clear who drops first.
I'd also argue Daredevil has another advantage in close combat, his billy club. He's pretty good at throwing that thing.
Good thing Snake is a casual bullet timer and can dodge gunshots after they've been fired, even when caught completely by surprise by a ballistic knife.
Olga even says no one has ever dodged that shot before.
He's even managed to tag Iron Fist with that thing and Danny has reflex feats like this:
He's also a good enough marksmen with it to send it down the barrel of Punisher's gun.
Daredevil tagged Iron Fist by catching him off guard with a ricochet. Solid Snake, as fate would have it, happens to be an expert at dodging ricochets, as Revolver Ocelot would attest.
The Russian catches Snake off guard, but the soldier's reflexes are so highly tuned that the sound of Ocelot's gun cocking is the only warning that he needs. The two then have a rather lengthy close-quarters gun fight where Snake dodges every single shot fired. Keep in mind, Ocelot is pretty much the master of ricochet. Nastasha Romanenko, a military analyst, described him as wielding his gun with "diabolical powers". He can easily make double or even triple rebounds with perfect accuracy, and in fact, during each of his boss fights throughout the series, the players usually very competent support team is left at a loss for words.
That's some mad skill right there, he didn't even touch Raiden's hand.
So Snake can probably dodge Daredevil's billy club, throwing it might actually be a bad move for the vigilante because than his only offensive hope will be gone.
And he throws it hard enough to send it what through what appears to be a concrete pillar.
Snake did that with his bare hands, but instead of piercing and cracking the concrete, he tore down the whole wall.
Yes, this is still canon. Daredevil gonna get messed up.
While on the topic I might as well go over speed. Now, I feel like people are quick to give Daredevil an edge in this area, but let me highlight Snake's abilities. I actually don't think there's a single feat reflexive Matt Murdock has performed that the legendary soldier could not replicate, whereas there are several Daredevil could not. Movement and agility wise Daredevil is superior, but Solid Snake's snap reaction time and combat speed is hard to top. He consistently outpaces various Cyborg Ninja and has even matched Vamp move for move. Snake is beyond casual bullet timer status. Here's him reacting fast enough to dodge an entire hailstorm of fire from gunship.
Keep in mind, an attack helicopter would generally be carrying extremely high-caliber weaponry, meaning that machine gun was firing far faster than any normal weapon. It's not exactly pistol or rifle rounds.
That would be impressive against cannon fodder, but like Liquid mentions in the scans, he is actually an extremely skilled pilot! It's true that he shot down two F-16 Fighter Planes all by himself with that chopper. What he neglected to mention was that it happened during a snowstorm.
Insane.
Oh yeah and Snake also tanks a couple of missiles and blasts the chopper with a rocket during a midair freefall but that's not impressive or anything... not compared to this speed at least.
Even as Old Snake, the MGS4 novelization implies that David's reflexes are still just as if not sharper than Cyborg Raiden's. When Vamp throws a volley of knives, the soldier was capable of barrel rolling out the way, whereas Raiden deadpanned that the same knives moved too fast for him and he had to tank them.
I give you that Daredevil's projectile deflection feats are super impressive, but they have a lot to do with precision and radar sense more than raw reflexes. If it's any consolation, deflecting bullets is pretty standard in Metal Gear, and during MGS2, Snake implied that he could do it himself except he doesn't "have a thing for blades." Something that I can never see Daredevil replicating, is Snake's famous Rail Gun dodge, which I already went over. Overall there isn't much separating these two reflexively. I mean Daredevil dodges projectiles from Bullseye and sometimes bullets, Snake dodges close ranged ricochet shots from Revolver Ocelot. Daredevil deflects bullets, Snake beats up characters who can do that and dodges Rail Guns. Personally I actually think Snake might be superior. Matt just has radar sense.
Yeah, this is a false interpretation of the events that happened during that fight. Yes, Captain America was indeed using a more aggressive, juggernaut like approach against Daredevil in that particular fight, but it never said anything about him foregoing his top tier martial prowess while using that method, and it was never implied at all that his fighting ability was impaired due to the unique approach to that fight.
The implication seems obvious to me, Cap acted like a complete brute as Daredevil wondered why he was acting like a complete brute. Just read his monologue. He even says that Cap has never been this hard nosed - as in Cap was fighting in a fashion that he never had before.
Frankly, Steve wasn't doing anything much different than what he usually does in fights. Bucky has even noted that Steve is a naturally aggressive fight and is more successful in that charging in method than him due to his superior physical capabilities.
That's kinda out of context, I don't think that's what Bucky meant. He's not saying Steve was aggressive, just that he's better at "charging right in" whereas Bucky might have set up a sniping position or used stealth or relied on a firearm, etc.
Whatever, it doesn't matter. Honestly I myself side with Daredevil over Cap 100% so I shouldn't argue this. Your next claim is FAR more audacious.
Captain America is a bit of a better hand to hand combatant than Snake and his memo is hand to hand combat. He's also repping physical stats that are on par with, or even better than Solid Snake's
Pray tell, what exactly makes you so absolutely sure of that? Forgive me, but the way you word it makes it sound like you're just stating a common fact. Is it Snake's far more detailed and expanded history of training and mentoring by characters with actual feats and accomplishments of their own like Frank Jaeger, Kazuhira Miller, and Big Boss himself that makes you think Steve Rogers is more skilled? Is it the fact that his entire career revolves around taking on groups of metahumans alone, all of which almost always have a massive stat advantage over him in addition to incredible skill, yet he always prevails anyway? Or perhaps the fact that he was literally genetically created with a superhuman instinct for combat which, in conjunction with his 180 supergenius military IQ, causes him to constantly adapt making him effectively undefeatable in the series? Solid Snake has been a member of almost every single major military organization in the United States, including making Green Beret at the age of 14, not to mention the plethora of secret black ops agencies he's been a part of the most notable of which being the legendary FOXHOUND, the members of which are considered to be modern day ninja. By comparison, Steve Rogers has no stated training, almost all of his feats are simply stalemating other top tier martial artists (never beating), and he almost always has a stat advantage against them anyway, so that's not much of a testament to his skill.
...But I digress. Everything said, Solid Snake's fighting style is almost a mirror image of Captain America's, simply to a higher level. Whereas Daredevil is more of an oriental, traditional martial arts master, Snake (and Cap) are militaristic, tactical fighters. The Comic Vine misconception is that one is superior to the other. That's false. A Navy SEAL or Marine would utterly destroy a 15th century Japanese ninja. These fancy shmancy kung-fu moves don't mean anything to the kill techniques taught to a soldier.
And before you get started on all that silly technical knowledge stuff, let me say (and I doubt anybody's going to believe this) PRESSURE POINTS AREN'T THAT AMAZING. They don't show ANY advanced combat techniques knowledge, all they show is that character X can use pressure points. Solid Snake is the CQC master, he has an encyclopedic knowledge of holds, throws, and grapples the more advanced of which are even effective against characters with super strength and/or speed. THAT is technical knowledge, or perhaps I should phrase that as, knowledge on techniques. He doesn't know where any nerve clusters or anything like that are, but he knows how to attack the body's weak points like the heart and other organs, throat, neck, eyes, groin, and other discombobulating moves. Add to that, CQC, or Close Quarters Combat, is a system of attacks specifically designed to incorporate gunplay into H2H combat. So Snake isn't just a guy who can punch you in the face, he can punch you in the face while shooting you in the stomach.
Snake displays high-proficiency in the techniques by stomping Johnny Sasaki (who for all her humor is actually a damn beast) and casually downing a group of Paradise Lost Army operatives.
So while those scans against Punisher are impressive, Daredevil actually had the drop on Frank in each of them, and only had to travel a few yards to reach him, so that's worth considering. If shooting two bullet timers, a muscle reader, and hitting a chopper with a missile while midfreefall isn't enough for you, Snake can still shoot Daredevil in CQC. Punisher managed to do it.
And I mean, that is Snake's thing.
But enough about that. Martial arts-wise, I've already posted clips of Snake:
- Defeating the Cyborg Ninja Frank Jaeger
- Defeating Ocelot
- Stomping Raiden
- Stomping soldiers
- Beating Liquid Snake
On the surface, Gray Fox seems like his greatest victory. The man could deflect gunfire as a teenager, and nearly 50 years later with that culmination of experience, plus cyborg enhancements, he could very well have been hypersonic (it wouldn't surprise me with the ease he treats mach 2 projectiles). Not to mention he was a 500 tonner. Now all that's impressive, but what really tops things off is that Frank Jaeger was one of the most feared and renowned fighters on the planet, being the only FOXHOUND agent in the organization's history to ever earn the codename Fox (it's highest honor) as well as being a former child soldier who could actually kill dozens of armed soldiers simultaneously with a single knife, before hitting puberty. As part of the Perfect Soldier Project, Frank's mind was kept constantly filtered and his memories wiped, so that the only thing taking up space in his brain was combat techniques. That's incredible. Snake kicked his ass.
However, lorewise, beating Liquid and Ocelot are both actually more impressive. Ocelot of course being a total super genius, naturally adept fighter and the son of The Boss. At the age of 18, he mastered CQC to the point where he could stalemate the style's creator, after merely watching him perform a few techniques. As for Liquid, he's arguably even better than Ocelot and had all the superior soldier genes, not to mention a severe stat advantage on an exhausted and battle wounded Snake.
The next big guy is Vamp. He's actually pretty similar to Daredevil, just turned up to 11. Exceptionally quick and agile, high precision, masterful martial artist, can predict opponent's moves, etc. He has all the traits, just to a higher level. I already showed him fighting on even ground with Cyborg Raiden. Now, Vamp is a little bit above peak human, but Raiden was a 1,000+ tonner with speed to match. I won't even get into his skill. Simply being capable of fighting on even ground, with a character like that, is ridiculous. But wait, there's more! You want technical knowledge?! Well get this... VAMP ACTUALLY KNOWS PRESSURE POINTS! IT'S AMAZING ISN'T IT? HE MUST BE SO SKILLED!
No. Because whereas Vamp actually has used a nerve strike before, such "technical knowledge" pales in comparison to the other techniques Vamp knows. Muscle reading, and shadow binding are two abilities that completely blow any amount of pressure point usage absolutely out of the water. They show a level of advancement and understanding that very few comic book characters can match.
Muscle reading is self explanatory. Shadow binding I don't have the clip for, but it's basically a form of hypnosis where Vamp's movements and the precise light reflected off his blade tricks the victim into being paralyzed in place when his knife strikes their shadow. This is some Iron Fist/Cassandra Cain crap.
David beat him as Old Snake (adding even another layer to the feat). Unfortunately it was an in-game boss battle so all we have to go on is the aftermath, which has Vamp crouched on the floor after Snake beat him down and nullified his healing factor with nanomachines.
The DGN gives is a more traditional battle between the two.
Now this fight isn't actually canon, HOWEVER it was actually approved by Hideo Kojima (along with everything else seen in the comics) so even though it didn't happen, we know that it would have.
Now the question becomes, how on Earth does Solid Snake beat guys like this?! It is pretty crazy. I'll give you the answer.
- Instincts.
- Tactics.
Solid Snake isn't actually... human. He was cloned from Big Boss's cells and genetically modified to express an abundance of "soldier genes." This makes him a natural Blood Knight with an aptitude for combat. In fact, it was for this reason that he referred to himself in MGS4 as "a shadow (of a man) that no light would shine on." That's not exactly a good thing for the character, but it does grant him an almost sixth sense. Snake is known for being unbelievably quick and resourceful, constantly adapting to his situation, so much so that Colonel Campbell actually dubbed him "The Man Who Makes The Impossible, Possible."
So, do I think Snake can outskill Daredevil? Ehh possibly. Do I think he can adapt and overcome him with a clever tactic like he did Vamp? Definitely. Especially equipped with an entire military arsenal in his pants that he is adept at using to it's full potential. Even if Daredevil is a better martial artist... he still can't hurt Snake that much.
@wolverine08 rawr
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