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#51 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: Sorry I kept putting it off, if you want to continue feel free to post your final post.

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#52 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#53 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: Sorry I kept putting it off, if you want to continue feel free to post your final post.

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#54 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26804 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Oh, I never noticed that you responded actually. After a while I stopped checking.

I'll reply ASAP.

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#55 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Oh, I never noticed that you responded actually. After a while I stopped checking.

I'll reply ASAP.

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#56 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26804 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Alright, I have 3 CaV posts incoming, this one is the top priority. Expect it by tommorow.

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#57 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26804 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, it's been an awful lot while since I've been in an official Avatar debate, so it took a while to progress this all again, but here it is.

"Your technique is useless on me..."

Countering Todoroki

It only takes time to set it up, throwing the attack however is a different issue.

Wether it's set-up time or draw time doesn't make much difference, it shouldn't be practical enough that it'll work against someone like Katara, which is probably the reason Todoroki's never used it against an opponent that wasn't a brick.

Izuku while using 5 percent hits a little harder than some bending attacks IMO.

Sure, but that's still below Azula's own feats of power, I think it's very important to note that Katara can match her.

A thing to consider about this feat is there is no way to tell how thick the ground was here. Look at the location one more time, unless he is right under a bridge or something or directly under an area where water would be directly under, Katara wouldn't be able to pull this off.

She hasn't faced any other ice benders asides from Pakku and we saw how that went, there is no guarantee she'd be able to stop Shoto's Ice so easily. Plus like I said a 1-2 combo, as she's trying to avoid or stop the ice, he goes for a fire attack suckerpunch to hit her mid action.

I think it's thick enough;

She'd have to dig at least a handful of feet below ground level to actually draw the water by my calculations.
She'd have to dig at least a handful of feet below ground level to actually draw the water by my calculations.

Furthermore, she clearly busted a good amount of solid rock ground to get the water up on the surface, I don't think the location here would prevent her from using this technique.

As for Katara never having faced other icebenders besides Pakku, she has taken on fodder waterbenders;

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Stops the combined ice attack of 2 benders and effortlessly counters it.

it's clear that she can redirect ice-based projectiles, maybe even cut them in half. Here's how I personally always saw anti-water defences in bending; when a waterbender has shown the ability to use a particular technique to defend against/redirect/counter another attack, wether it's against another powerful bender or against nameless children, they can use it against any water manipulator depending on their general power. And since I'd argue Katara has comparable scale and superior potency to Shooto, I'm confident she could do this to his own attacks.

Shoto shoots fire out of his hands, why wouldn't he be able to attack while on the move? Especially since he can also use mobility in a similar fashion to Katara(creates a floor of ice and runs/skates across it)

It looked to me like he was charging the ice trail using his arms, which wouldn't allow for other types of attacks.

That move was clearly a charged technique, the amount of effort and time she put into that technique doesn't compare to the amount of effort Shoto put in to doing what he did in his fight against Sero.....the anime version took some time, but the manga version was practically instant, I can't think of anyone who has bending speed/draw speed on par with Todoroki except Azula via instant lightning, and Team Avatar was put on the ropes when it came to dealing with that IIRC

I wouldn't call it a charged attack, Katara simply raised her hands and a tidal wave was raised with them - the move is slower in the sense that the projectile (the wave) itself isn't as fast, but in terms of draw speed, there's no real difference, and that's why I think it doesn't matter - because projectile speed doesn't affect the power of the attack, or the time it would take to put up a defence against Shooto's own attack and/or overpower his own.

I made the mistake of calling Shooto's advantage in speed "draw speed" in the last post, I don't actually think he has a draw speed advantage, it's actually a projectile speed gap more than anything.

Stain was generally out of their league altogether. No surprise a simple knife throw threw Shoto off.

Yeah, I guess combat or travel speed-wise, Stain is faster than Katara, or most opponents she's faced, but that wouldn't make a knife throw faster than it should be, unless he uses some special fictional marksman BS. And since we're on the topic of super special fictional marksman BS, I want to take note again of a showing I mentioned in my opener;

No Caption Provided

After she succesfully defended against an attack from Mai's knives, she managed to tag Ty Lee from behind and still react to Mai's next attack. Afterwards, we still see her keeping up with Mai's draw speed and fire rate and even outdrawing her and encasing one of her arms in attack motion in ice [skip to 3:07 of the video on the link].

Mai's knife throws actually do have consistent feats to say they are well, well above your average dagger or arrow, as well as her own spring shooters. Mai can easily launch grown men away and pierce said hard steel in the process, and so with barely any effort as well. On a sidenote, penetrating hard steel like that with knives, requires the projectile to be at least comparable to the speed of an average bullet.

In addition, her draw speed is superior to Azula's, whom I've shown some feats for already I believe, as stated by the writers:

So we decided that she (Azula) would have basically picked out two people who had certain skills that she did not have. Ty Lee with her acrobatics and Mai with her super pin-point accuracy and quick draw skills.

Michael Dante DiMartino, An Avatar Springbreak with Mike and Bryan

Her being faster than Azula, draw speed wise, is very notable due to Azula's own notable draw speed. For instance, she could easily outdraw Zuko, despite visibly warning him of opening the 3 way dueal at Tu Zin, and despite his immense awareness and precision of the sourroundings. Similarly, she could throw double the amount of fireballs Zuko could in the same amount of time and he's demonstrated excellent speed himself before. Considering all these people ultize pyrokinesis that requires no litteral draw, but just fire, this says a lot about how fast Mai can pull out a knife.

I think the disparity in actual reactions and/or combat speed between Katara and Todoroki is noticable enough that it's a noteworthy advantage she has IMO.

Defending Katara

The amount of time is irrelevant, a flash freeze is a flash freeze. There's a huge difference between freezing enough to be encased in ice(where its possibly for body parts to go numb due to the cold) and actually being frozen from the skin to the bone.

The amount doesn't matter. If it was on Shouto's level it would have kept her in place due to the fact that trying to rip herself out of it would only do more harm than good.

If I got it correctly, your point was that the temperature behind Katara's ice and Shooto's ice is huge and that therefore his own constructs would overcome hers. I don't think the comparison with Korra and Zaheer works, I don't think it's even relevant. When Katara simply froze the leader of the Rought Rhinos, seconds later he couldn't feel his limbs - that has to count for something regarding temperature.

Again, it was very long time after Katara froze her that Azula managed to escape, and exactly like you said, someone like Shooto wouldn't be going around freezing people to death, so why would Katara? She didn't want to hurt, let alone kill Azula, merely incapacitate her.

Lets assume I agree regarding scale and speed of attack, the difference in draw speed is so big it plays a factor in why Todoroki would win. Katara would have no way of countering or predicting such a fast attack, in fact, she might even be caught off guard because she'd have no way of plowing through the entire thing. Look at how fast Bakugo had to be with his attacks in order to defend himself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4MneKk1_O4

Nobody has a fire rate that good, not even Zuko or Azula. The only person who comes to mind in the Avatar Verse is someone like Kuvira who is among the fastest characters in the series.

Like I said above, I don't think it's actual draw speed - it's projectile speed, and yes there's a noticable disparity between Katara and Todoroki there, but projectile speed is still secondary. When it comes to actual draw speed, Katara should be better, given the physical speed difference between them. In short, if Todoroki and Katara create an equally large ice construct, Shooto's one is going to be finished faster, but that doesn't actually matter in a straight up contest of power - if Katara's attacks are more potent, or at least as potent, as Shooto's, she can either match or exceed him regardless of how fast the attack itself would travel.

Since Katara has more than good enough reactions to react to FTE movement, there's no way Shooto's blitzing her with his ice manipulation - visually, anime is more impressive because it's, well... anime - but quantifiably, I don't think there's a case to be made for Shooto overwhelming Katara through sheer speed and/or fire rate.

True, but not only was the move slightly charged, but the ship is on the water, the water which could easily influence its path and movement, combine that with bending and you got at least half of the reason why the ship moved. Regardless, none of her standard attacks have that level of potency, her charged attacks most likely do, but like I said, there isn't a chance in hell she'll be able to pull out the same level of potency she did here as soon as the fight starts to counter Todoroki's Ice Ridge.

Yes, the move was clearly charged, but it's still a hint of just how much force Katara packs with a punch. Todoroki wouldn't come close to this level of output if he charged for this long. As for the water influencing the path/movement of the ship, I don't think that's the case. The sea was as peaceful as it can get before Katara bent the wave.

Not on the same level, but close enough, the problem is that she has no showings countering other waterbenders who utilize such a technique, obviously she's capable of dispersing her own bent ice, but we don't know how good she is at negating others.

It's still nothing but ice manipulation, which Katara can counter. It's more precise than a straightforward ice construct, but it's still an icy surface. Shouldn't be that hard to deal with.

Bakugo is definitely more mobile than Katara. He was avoiding attacks from six super powered villains with his explosions and agility. He also is capable of propelling himself far more effectively than Azula with her jet propulsion. (here's the anime version skip to 1:54) I wanna see Azula or Zuko, or any bender do something like this.

I don't agree with this, Bakugo is fast, but what have these opponents done to suggest dancing around them is impressive? Somersaults and everything are cool, but it's nothing Katara cannot deal with, Azula or Ty Lee could easily replicate this kind of mobility without any use of bending. Katara's actual mobility with bending is not limited to acrobatics, she could litteraly surf all around the field on ice while dodging building level attacks from Azula (and the only way she failed to keep it up was due to the heat of Azula's flames under Sozin's Comet, which isn't something Shooto's own firepower can begin to compare to). And those ice ramps do not require her arms' full focus, she's free to spread around tidal waves and/or counter attacks while maneuvering up there.

She would have to immediately move out of the way, or be fast enough to jump out of the way leading into jumping onto one of the buildings or taking the time to do so. If this was Zuko, Azula or Aang, or any character that has a fair amount of agility, or characters like Toph who could launch themselves almost immediately, you would have a case, but similar to all the other potential counters Katara has to Shouto she has to take the time to do her gestures in order to do so which her opponent will not allow.

It doesn't really take much time for Katara to use exceptionally efficient mobility tools that could help her dodge attacks:

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I mean just look at that, it litteraly takes no time to charge, she just draws water and begins to ride it, then covers large portion of the Arena in mere seconds all the while making huge turns and effective maneuvers to outpace Azula's massive firepower.

Then how can you argue she can effectively do this against Todoroki?

I mean, is there any reason why she wouldn't be able to? It's the same kind of ice, she just never needed to use this against other waterbenders because no one could flash freeze her if they tried - that said, if he does manage to flash freeze her, it'll probably won't matter because he should be able to take her out immediately afterwards, so I guess fair enough on that - wasn't a main point I was trying to make either way, just a skill I felt like highlighting.

And reaction speed, and reflexes.... Bakugu and Izuku are honestly more impressive than say Azula.(when not looking at comic feats, which even then, aren't enough to say she's better.) His mobility, skills, and the way he uses his powers makes him an opponent I cannot see most Avatar characters dealing with properly. At the very least they are on her level.

I strongly disagree. Just look at Ty Lee:

No Caption Provided

Her most direct showing of speed was blitzing a tired Sokka, who was still fast enough to be above casual arrow timing level, deflecting arrows from Mai's shooters with his club. Noting once again, Mai's spring shooters launch tiny small arrows with enough force to penetrate Toph's earthbending. I could list an entire collection of Toph's insane raw power feats, but I'll just say that far lesser earthbenders can support several tons falling with small earth constructs. Now, Ty Lee was a litteral speedster compared to Sokka in this condition, she could flip and somersault upwards, get behind him and all while he was still focused on her starting position only realising she got there once she hit him.

Honestly, if Ty Lee is decently close to Shooto, she could very easily blitz him given his reactions aren't any better than those that Sokka showed in the above fight. That's how huge the difference between them is, and neither Stain nor Bakugo have shown speed on par with that of Ty Lee, Mai or Azula, all of whom Katara has kept up with or put pressure on in the past, even at close range. The speed of Avatar characters often gets lowballed to hell, but I'm extremely confident that Katara has much better reactions and overall movement speed than Shooto in battle, and generally her and other high tiers are much better than the vast majority of characters in MHA, excluding actual speedsters.

Closing Thoughts

I still stand by Katara having more than enough tools to win this fight if she plays her cards right:

  • Power: Yes, the speed at which Shooto's ice constructs and/or blasts of fire travel at is superior to Katara's own large projectiles and waves, that much is clear, but it won't actually matter when Katara has enough potency to outmatch Shooto's own attacks and enough scale to not be overwhelmed. Some of her attacks can eventually go right through his own and take him out/flash freeze him.
  • Specialised Defences: I think this category is directly tied to power, but Katara has shown a wide arsenal of anti-water defences, including redirection, which is the philosophy behind the traditional forms of waterbending that Katara utilises. This will help with defending against most of his attacks.
  • Mobility and Speed: I don't quite agree that Shooto's opponents shown above are as maneuverable as Katara, definitely not as fast. She has great travel speed and can litteraly dance around the battlefield just as much as Todoroki can, only she's allowed more options than him doing so. In regards to reactions and draw speed, Katara's fights with skilled and agile fighters in Azula and Co speak for themselves.
  • Versatality and Battlefield Control: I don't think the environment limits Katara at all, or at least not as much as you might think. The source of water is still a great one, and she shouldn't have trouble actually pulling off attacks from all around the field to overwhelm Shooto. Katara uses the remainers of water-based attack from all around the field all the time, and she also abuses undeground water for highily unexpected attacks. This is a major factor in this battle that I think you're not giving enough credit to. Shooto has simply never dealt with this amount of battlefield control or diverse skillset, attacks that can potentially come from every single direction.

Katara has advantages in skill, mobility, reactions and versatality - it's basically more than enough to outpace, defend against and overwhelm Shooto with combined maneuverability and attacks from everywhere on the field. Power is something he has on her, but that's only the case when it comes to sheer scale, and I think I've shown enough to support that she can definitely defend against his attacks, or quite possibly overpower him at points.

@deathhero61 Alrighty, that's it. This was one of my favourite debates to date actually, even though it was dead for a little while. You know how much I look up to you as a debater, so actually finishing a CaV with you is something I wanted to a lot. Hopefully, I've also gave a good representation of the Avatarverse and their underestimated parts in regards to combat.

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#58 Edited by ANTHP2000 (26804 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61 just making sure you got the tag, you can open this for voting once you're done with your closing post. Thanks for a very enjoyable debate!

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#59 Edited by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000:Sorry for taking way too long to finish this up. I've been busy as you've seen and I was kind of lazy since this was my last post. I'm going to make this as brief as possible. Considering a lot of time has passed, I won't use any major new feats that will drastically change the debate. That would be unfair to my opponent.

No Caption Provided

Defending Todoroki

Wether it's set-up time or draw time doesn't make much difference, it shouldn't be practical enough that it'll work against someone like Katara, which is probably the reason Todoroki's never used it against an opponent that wasn't a brick.

If I am being honest, at a starting distance of 50 feet, if he wanted to, he could get that attack off way before Katara could reach him with an attack. Plus the move he used to freeze the building is equally as effective and Katara never dealt with that kind of offense. And since she has no feats against that kind of offense she suffers.

Sure, but that's still below Azula's own feats of power, I think it's very important to note that Katara can match her.

It really isn't....

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This is Toph, level sheningans, and consistently the only way Katara is on Toph's level is with a large water source. Which I know we tend to disagree on. I wasn't joking when I said Izuku has the raw power to match Aang.

I think it's thick enough;

No Caption Provided

Nah, it really isn't. Look where Aang and co are and where Katara is standing. The water is shallow enough for them to stand on. It doesn't help that the ground Katara busted the water through, wasn't reinforced by bending or anything like that making it less impressive. Considering Deku's strength and Bakugo's raw power this feat isn't impressive and it will never be enough to assist your case in regards to overcoming Todoroki's scale and power.

Furthermore, she clearly busted a good amount of solid rock ground to get the water up on the surface, I don't think the location here would prevent her from using this technique.

You need more solid proof than that. A city, and the outdoors by a shallow body of water are two different things entirely....there was likely water that Katara sensed under the ground Toph was walking under anyway to assist in that feat. There's no way she's pulling water from below todoroki when the ground is this high above the water.

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As for Katara never having faced other icebenders besides Pakku, she has taken on fodder waterbenders;

it's clear that she can redirect ice-based projectiles, maybe even cut them in half. Here's how I personally always saw anti-water defences in bending; when a waterbender has shown the ability to use a particular technique to defend against/redirect/counter another attack, wether it's against another powerful bender or against nameless children, they can use it against any water manipulator depending on their general power. And since I'd argue Katara has comparable scale and superior potency to Shooto, I'm confident she could do this to his own attacks.

1) You literally lost the credibility to use this as a feat against Shouto the instant you called them fodder.

2) Snow and Ice are completely different, Snow is basically water in comparison to ice. The amount of ease it would take to bend snow is nowhere near the amount of difficulty it would take to bend ice. One if far more complex than the other.

I don't think this is enough. Like at all.

It looked to me like he was charging the ice trail using his arms, which wouldn't allow for other types of attacks.

https://youtu.be/ueiDpkJx5bE?t=65 No not really, it seemed like it took no effort on his part to even move, there is no reason why he couldn't simply shoot a fire blast, and like I showed earlier in his fight with Bakugo, (I'll post it here since it seems the links in my previous posts have been taken down) he can easily just make a slide, and attack simultaneously.

https://youtu.be/WYRemG5BlMM?t=35

Around the 32 second mark.

And I already showed the big race between him and the other students. Every time he created ice slides to move around, his arms are basically doing nothing. There is no movement or complex technique involved. He literally just generates the ice. Unlike Katara.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDRTtbeT00I

So on the move he could literally attack Katara at the same time with either element which would be insanely dangerous.

I wouldn't call it a charged attack, Katara simply raised her hands and a tidal wave was raised with them - the move is slower in the sense that the projectile (the wave) itself isn't as fast, but in terms of draw speed, there's no real difference, and that's why I think it doesn't matter - because projectile speed doesn't affect the power of the attack, or the time it would take to put up a defence against Shooto's own attack and/or overpower his own.

I made the mistake of calling Shooto's advantage in speed "draw speed" in the last post, I don't actually think he has a draw speed advantage, it's actually a projectile speed gap more than anything.

It is charged, because she runs up, then takes a huge posture to send the attack in the direction of Combustion Man's blast. In terms of draw speed there's no difference? How? Todoroki's ice ridge was constructed with a thought and spread across a huge distance within a blink of an eye. That's simply better. Nothing Katara has accomplished can match that. Legit the only person with that kind of blistering speed is Toph and Aang and they are still vastly inferior in terms of projectile speed and draw speed. But I'll leave that to the voters.

Impossible but okay. Two occasions Shouto basically blitzed the opposition with this before they could do a thing. Katara honestly gets taken out by an Ice Ridge before she even reacts. The distance crossed and in the timeframe it was accomplished is simply too impressive IMO.

Yeah, I guess combat or travel speed-wise, Stain is faster than Katara, or most opponents she's faced, but that wouldn't make a knife throw faster than it should be, unless he uses some special fictional marksman BS.

Considering he's strong enough to slice down gigantic ice pillars, and you just admitted he's faster than most opponent's she's faced, I think its fair to say it can be.

I think the disparity in actual reactions and/or combat speed between Katara and Todoroki is noticable enough that it's a noteworthy advantage she has IMO.

I was going to disagree to agree, but I'm going to pull a Seto Kaiba and effectively put this argument in the dirt. Lets take a few steps back. I'm going to copy and paste some of the feats I showed.

Precision/Raw Power/Ability Speed: freezes the entire layout of a multi-storey building even effectively getting his target in seconds. He does this immediately, as soon as the fight starts leaving no room to react or even do a thing about it.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is an insane speed feat that honestly? Not even the Avatar himself has feats to match. He literally just freezes the entire building immediately before anyone could take a defensive action, meaning his ice spread throughout the ENTIRE BUILDING all before either of his opponents can move. I don't think you can grasp how absurdly stupid that is in terms of speed. He did this without warning, without a so much of a gesture.

Lets' look at the main feat that I've hyped up during this CAV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dzPFqPoXpA

Sero grabs Shouto with his tape, and drags him a good distance away from where he was originally positioned, and before he could finish his movement, instantly got frozen, everyone immediately got surprised and didn't even see the attack coming, not even Midnight, a Pro Hero who was watching over the fight to make sure neither student goes overboard could react in time to save herself from being frozen. NOTHING in avatar matches this. Not a single feat of speed matches this. This is not me being the usual lowballers on Comicvine who use animation and panel flow to lowball Avatar speed, this is me showing you an objectively higher class feat that surpasses any possibility of Katara being able to react. Azula's draw speed doesn't compare, Mai's draw speed doesn't compare, nobody in avatar has feats of reacting to a projectile this fast except Zuko and Aang, the former who reacted to Azula's amped lightning(mind you Katara couldn't)

I objectively believe that even if Katara can react to Shoto's ice, she won't have enough time to do a good enough gesture to give her the power to defend.

Leaving no doubt that Katara just straight up gets annihilated.

If I got it correctly, your point was that the temperature behind Katara's ice and Shooto's ice is huge and that therefore his own constructs would overcome hers. I don't think the comparison with Korra and Zaheer works, I don't think it's even relevant. When Katara simply froze the leader of the Rought Rhinos, seconds later he couldn't feel his limbs - that has to count for something regarding temperature.

If it literally gets to the point where you skin would peel off just trying to break out, then I disagree. But honestly I'm going to drop this argument because its not too relevant to the battle itself and I think I proved that Katara isn't winning anyway, and that you haven no prove they are on the same level.

Like I said above, I don't think it's actual draw speed - it's projectile speed, and yes there's a noticable disparity between Katara and Todoroki there, but projectile speed is still secondary. When it comes to actual draw speed, Katara should be better, given the physical speed difference between them. In short, if Todoroki and Katara create an equally large ice construct, Shooto's one is going to be finished faster, but that doesn't actually matter in a straight up contest of power - if Katara's attacks are more potent, or at least as potent, as Shooto's, she can either match or exceed him regardless of how fast the attack itself would travel.

Addressed draw speed and projectile speed claims. Katara has no feats, and neither does anybody in the verse. Also the fact that Katara has to use gestures mean that Shoto's ice will have full momentum before Katara even fully has her construct out(BTW she has no feats on par even in the slightest for that scenario to happen so good luck)

Yes, the move was clearly charged, but it's still a hint of just how much force Katara packs with a punch. Todoroki wouldn't come close to this level of output if he charged for this long. As for the water influencing the path/movement of the ship, I don't think that's the case. The sea was as peaceful as it can get before Katara bent the wave.

This is why I didn't use this feat in my CAV against Ming-Hua, specifically because it was on the ocean, she has a larger source of water to work with, hence the impressiveness of this feat. Katara has not one feat on par with this with a smaller source of water. And let go back to the location, the water and where its located would be too awkward for Katara to pull an efficient defense against an Ice Ridge anyway.

It's still nothing but ice manipulation, which Katara can counter. It's more precise than a straightforward ice construct, but it's still an icy surface. Shouldn't be that hard to deal with.

Feats my friend. Its that simple Katara doesn't have the feats.

don't agree with this, Bakugo is fast, but what have these opponents done to suggest dancing around them is impressive? Somersaults and everything are cool, but it's nothing Katara cannot deal with, Azula or Ty Lee could easily replicate this kind of mobility without any use of bending. Katara's actual mobility with bending is not limited to acrobatics, she could litteraly surf all around the field on ice while dodging building level attacks from Azula (and the only way she failed to keep it up was due to the heat of Azula's flames under Sozin's Comet, which isn't something Shooto's own firepower can begin to compare to). And those ice ramps do not require her arms' full focus, she's free to spread around tidal waves and/or counter attacks while maneuvering up there.

Not to be dismissive, but when has Katara dodges attacks from 6 different opponents? or blitzes someone in the fashion Bakugo did to Deku here? Completely outmaneuvering him in several ways before he even touches the ground?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

The closest anybody in Avatar has ever come to accomplishing something like this is Ty Lee against the Terra Team or whatever, but honestly? I have enough feats to suggest that anybody I mentioned in this debate could accomplish the same thing.

Azula cannot replicate that kind of mobility at all, her jet propulsions have never been used constantly to give her that kind of mobility, and her most impressive mobility feat was against Team Avatar when she had no bending and that's honestly nowhere near as impressive, and I'm sure the voters will agree on that much. Its not even a matter of anime/manga presentation. The feats I have shown are simply objectively better. Shouto can do exactly what Katara did against Azula, sliding on his ice while shooting his fire I already showed that, and he can easily vaporize Katara's water if he actually wanted to considering the trump card I showed later in my post.(that's a good example of his highest level of heat output.) And since you didn't seem to address this at all in your post I'll copy and paste it again just to show the audience.

Power? The Ice Ridges, speak for themselves, and Todoroki has a trump card of his own. He overpowered Deku's strongest punch(already gave you an idea of what the shockwave alone of his strongest punch can do) with said trump card, and honestly, Nobody outside of a Bloodlusted Aang, or Bumi is matching Deku in terms of destructive force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpOhT35YtWg&t=31s

Shoto takes the already cool air and ice and heats it up to create a powerful explosion. What's to stop him from launching such an attack to take down Katara? Katara has shown no powerful enough defense to pull this off. Quite frankly, not even lightning in Avatar has been this destructive so even her feats of defending against Azula's lightning won't hold water either regarding her defense. And she sure as hell isn't doing what you described with Todoroki's ice ridge. She doesn't have the defensive techniques Aang and Toph do to wall out something with that much force. Hell I'd argue Todoroki could replicate something smaller scale with Katara's own attacks....meaning her own offense can potentially be thrown back at her if the right situation sets it up. In fact although I said I wouldn't use any new feats, this isn't a major one and its literally just him using the same technique I described above, but on a smaller scale.

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He did that when his opponent was rampaging around spamming water attacks. Todoroki used his own water, plus the ice he already had laying around just to easily throw out this technique. If this hits at full power that's game. Katara never seen a technique like this, never defended against a technique like this and has no outs.

Even if I gave you another post to respond to this(since you apparently glossed over this in your post) There's really nothing you can do that can save Katara from an attack of this magnitude. And he clearly literally just throw this out as long as there is Ice around. Nobody would blame you for conceding.

Honestly, if Ty Lee is decently close to Shooto, she could very easily blitz him given his reactions aren't any better than those that Sokka showed in the above fight.

Yeah. No. Already addressed all this. Nothing Ty Lee has done compares to Bakugo or Izuku. But we'll leave that to the voters.

Summary:

  • Objectively speaking, and this isn't based off animation and budget, this is based off several variables: Todoroki's ice generation is absurdly fast and there isn't a damn thing Katara specifically can do about it. She isn't fast enough and everything she does requires gestures. Even I agree and said Katara has the reaction speed to match Todoroki, she doesn't have enough time to form a defense before his full attack goes through.
  • Todoroki has dealt with characters with clear cut feats above Ty Lee, Azula, and the like. Katara's speed is literally nothing.
  • You ignored my trump card, but even if you didn't there's no possible counter, not possible feat in specifically Katara's arsenal that can counter it. A waterbender would not be able to do a thing about this type of technique. Arguably not even Toph could defend against a blast of that magnitude.
  • Katara has no ways of putting him down asides from at best slicing attacks which can be defended against.
  • Katara simply doesn't have the feats to win.
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#61 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26804 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh yay @deathhero61 I totally forgot about this. So I guess you can open this for votes, make sure to add it in the title.

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#62 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2556 posts) - - Show Bio

Definitely gonna vote on this, bump me if I don't by the end of the week.

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#63 Posted by Kevd4wg (12699 posts) - - Show Bio

Anthp is a weeb???

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#64 Posted by geekryan (4493 posts) - - Show Bio

Going to give my vote to @anthp2000.

He convinced me that Katara had the offensive power to at least match Shouto, while being superior in defence, speed, and mobility.

I didn't know much about Shouto, but DH represented him well and proved he was a very dangerous opponent with lots of power and AoE at his disposal.

Both had good arguments and counters, but I feel as though ANTHP's arguments & counters were more thorough and effective.

Well done to the both of you.

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#65 Posted by Subline (7722 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:

Anthp is a weeb???

Smh, Anthp partook in many Anime CaVs. But lost every single one of them.

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#66 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18318 posts) - - Show Bio

I will try to vote before Sunday, bump me if I don’t.

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#67 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: can you elaborate more on your vote? It feels like you skimmed it.

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#68 Posted by geekryan (4493 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: can you elaborate more on your vote? It feels like you skimmed it.

Any CaV I vote on, I read through carefully. I'm not one to just toss in a vote because I feel like it.

I think my vote was explained well, but if both you and @anthp2000 would like more detail, I will do so.

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#69 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan:I'll take your word for it this time. I just felt there was a little more to the debate. Thanks for voting.

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#70 Edited by ANTHP2000 (26804 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Yeah thanks for voting, and for the vote too.

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#71 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26804 posts) - - Show Bio
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#73 Edited by MorbusGrav (1181 posts) - - Show Bio

Oha lots of lowballing or highballing of several characters and just wrong statements on both sides, i don't really want to vote.

Toph's blistering speed, or Zuko allegedly being faster than the likes of Azula, Tenzin or Kuvira, just what the heck? Or Katara outdrawing Mai and saying she would be allegedly easy able to continuously surf around building sized attacks without the heat on the other hand. Just come on guys, what is that crazy talk?

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#74 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26804 posts) - - Show Bio
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#75 Edited by Defiant_Will (1127 posts) - - Show Bio

This was a great CaV. Both sides put up an excellent fight in this debate and I was being swayed constantly from post to post. My first read through, I was on Anthp's side, but after a second read through, I think I am going to have to vote for @deathhero61

The thing is, Anthp never really convinced me that Katara could even damage Todoroki. Katara's piercing attacks (which should have been emphasized more imo) are countered by Todorki's piercing resistance. And Katara's more damaging attacks like her waves will always be countered with and overpowered by Todoroki's ice due to superior draw and activation speed in addition to scale and power. Now I was convinced that Katara would be able to defend against the AoE ice attacks due to Katara's bending skills, however that still leaves Todoroki with his powerful fire attacks and flash freezing, both of which are viable ways to take out Katara. I wasn't really convinced by Katara having that much more mobility than Todoroki nor was I convinced that her battlefield control would be that relevant in this fight. And lastly, while Katara does have more versatility, I feel like Todoroki's raw power and speed advantage should counter this.

But great debate overall.

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#76 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26804 posts) - - Show Bio

@defiant_will: Thank you for voting and giving such an in depth analysis!

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#77 Posted by deactivated-5cadf799d578c (401 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:

Anthp is a weeb???

Avatar is Western Anime, doesn't fall under "Anime"
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#78 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26804 posts) - - Show Bio

So much bait.

Anyway, bump.

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#79 Posted by Psy-Scarlet (752 posts) - - Show Bio

Giving it to ANTHP2000 (Just because he basically proved that Katara is more powerful)

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#80 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18318 posts) - - Show Bio

This was a great CaV. Both sides put up an excellent fight in this debate and I was being swayed constantly from post to post. My first read through, I was on Anthp's side, but after a second read through, I think I am going to have to vote for @deathhero61

The thing is, Anthp never really convinced me that Katara could even damage Todoroki. Katara's piercing attacks (which should have been emphasized more imo) are countered by Todorki's piercing resistance. And Katara's more damaging attacks like her waves will always be countered with and overpowered by Todoroki's ice due to superior draw and activation speed in addition to scale and power. Now I was convinced that Katara would be able to defend against the AoE ice attacks due to Katara's bending skills, however that still leaves Todoroki with his powerful fire attacks and flash freezing, both of which are viable ways to take out Katara. I wasn't really convinced by Katara having that much more mobility than Todoroki nor was I convinced that her battlefield control would be that relevant in this fight. And lastly, while Katara does have more versatility, I feel like Todoroki's raw power and speed advantage should counter this.

But great debate overall.

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#81 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26804 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Thank you for voting!

@psy-scarlet: thanks, but a little more input would be appreciated!

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#82 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

Giving it to ANTHP2000 (Just because he basically proved that Katara is more powerful)

?? Can you elaborate?

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#83 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#84 Edited by StormShadow_X (16668 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't think I ever voted on this one. Giving it to DH. He had the superior character and was the better debater in when speaking on the power difference between the two characters. Anthp had a good effort but he went against a great debater who had a better character and pushed his point on Todoroki and his raw power in comparison to Katara and her skill advantage.

Now when I saw DH had a better character I don't want to de value his skill as a debater as it showed here, just adding in to narrative he pushed in history post about Shoto and Katara being in different leagues which I felt he proved.

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