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#1 Edited by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio
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Random Encounter

Bloodlusted since I like a challenge. But in character I guess.

Starting Distance of 50 feet

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CAV Rules

If you have more than 1000 posts and have actually been around on Comicvine Battle Forums you should know the rules already. Don't interrupt, this is a debate between me and Anthp, have a problem with the matchup? PM either of us. And when voting for who won, vote for who you thought debated better or at least who had the better argument or even represented their character better, a vote cannot solely be based off who you personally think would win.

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#2 Edited by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000 said:

@deathhero61: Awesome. But wait is it IC or bloodlusted?

Would it make a difference for Katara really?

Also I meant to say both.

Edit: There's a difference between being bloodlusted and in character and just being out of character in general in case you are wondering.

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#6 Posted by deactivated-5b60e98a8eb99 (11593 posts) - - Show Bio
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Tag

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#7 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Well, whatever I guess lol Bloodlusted but IC it is then.

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#8 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: If you think it sounds weird, think CW Barry when he was bloodlusted and then you'll see what I mean.

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#9 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: I think I get it, just thinking about how many CaVs I had without realising the correct meaning of the term.

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#10 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Gnomishness (1656 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by americanspeeddemon (7208 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: T4V also still sorry i couldn't finish that other CaV

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#14 Edited by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Edited by Back_stabbath95 (2187 posts) - - Show Bio

Ooooh this'll be fun, T4V

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#16 Edited by HigherPower (12293 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#17 Posted by EzraArcher (1161 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V good luck

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#18 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

As someone who has seen both, I'm very interested on how Katara will stand a chance. Regardless, I trust Anthp will rep her well. Good luck,guys, make sure to tag me when it's done!

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#19 Posted by StormShadow_X (16680 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmmm.... Tag

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#20 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me. I don't know anything about DH61's character so I probably won't vote, but I do need some Katara gifs.

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#21 Edited by Just_Banter (12391 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see how this is a fair fight, but I'll wait and see I guess. Tag pls

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#22 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42: I have that Korra vs Katara CaV with many gifs.

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#23 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42: Why do you need Katara gifs?

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#25 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000:

I want to branch out debating wise. By now I've debated or am debating for pretty much every character I want to (Zaheer, Ming Hua, Korra, Tenzin, Zhu Li, Wan, and a couple of others I'm forgetting), and some of them (Wan, Zaheer, Korra, and Tenzin) multiple times. I want to debate for Katara, but I don't have the gifs yet.

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#26 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Damn why you gotta do him like that...

Taggggggg and I'm definitely voting

I'm petty, and always challenge people to CAVs when a battle forum thread(where nobody puts as much effort debating) is going nowhere fast. It was a Katara and Zuko vs Shouto match and he said Katara could solo and I said "Oh really???" and he said "Oh yeah" and I said "well come catch these hands boi" and here we are.

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#27 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42 said:

@anthp2000:

I want to branch out debating wise. By now I've debated or am debating for pretty much every character I want to (Zaheer, Ming Hua, Korra, Tenzin, Zhu Li, Wan, and a couple of others I'm forgetting), and some of them (Wan, Zaheer, Korra, and Tenzin) multiple times. I want to debate for Katara, but I don't have the gifs yet.

It took me 3+ hours to find most of Zuko's basic feats, Katara should be a lot easier, especially since there are respect threads and CAVs relating to her.

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#28 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_vulcan said:

@deathhero61: Damn why you gotta do him like that...

Taggggggg and I'm definitely voting

I'm petty, and always challenge people to CAVs when a battle forum thread(where nobody puts as much effort debating) is going nowhere fast. It was a Katara and Zuko vs Shouto match and he said Katara could solo and I said "Oh really???" and he said "Oh yeah" and I said "well come catch these hands boi" and here we are.

For some reason, this sounds hillarious.

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#29 Posted by ReaperTheGrim (1101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Huskii (461 posts) - - Show Bio

Lmao is that supposed to be a burn scar?! The originality is so blatantly clear.

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#31 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by FlashingSabre (3863 posts) - - Show Bio

This seems like a msimatch, but that's not what these are about, so T4V.

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#34 Edited by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio

Katara

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The world of "Avatar" is a world where certain people (almost half of the population) are born with special abilities allowing them to control/manipulate one of the 4 natural elements, Water, Earth, Fire, Air. The manipulators of the elements are known as "benders", waterbenders, earthbenders, firebenders and airbenders. An Avatar is a person who can both control all 4 of the elements and unlock a power called the "Avatar State" which is basically the god mode in-verse, plot deviced to allow the Avatar do anything. Aang is the current Avatar BTW. Anyway, to make it short, the world of Avatar is split in 4 nations each one representing 1 element. During the time the events below take place, the Fire Nation was in a Hundred-Year War with the Earth Kingdom after they burned down the Air Nomads.

Katara is a waterbender from the South Pole, the master of 2 Avatars, one of the most powerful benders in the world and the best waterbender in the series as far as I'm concerned. I do believe she has what it takes to win this fight.

Waterbending (hydrokinesis)

I feel comfortable saying that Katara is superior in elemental manipulation by a good margin. While, Shouto has a huge scale advantage, she has every other advantage vicrtually.

Power

Katara is not on his level of sheer scale in hydrokinesis, but she's close enough to at least hold her own.

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Here, Katara puts up with both the pressure of the water and the large amounts of dirt and rocks inside to manipulate a waterfall-like stream.

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This particular wave clearly took much time to travel the distance it needs, however unlike here, the distance between Katara's location and the sea is considerable. That's way more than 100 ft. while Katara has an available source of water to use right next to her here.

I'd like to note that Katara's wave here filled an entire factory in seconds, this should tell you about how much water she can manipulate.

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Here, she manipulates a very large part of an entire lake.

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With the aid of the Full Moon, she could instantly raise and attack with warship sized waves effortlessly, though since this is with the Full Moon I'm not willing to use it.

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Katara could break through steel chains various times with minimal amounts of water.

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Or even much, much thicker metal like steel pillars, though that's piercing damage output.

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And here, she slices through Huu with giant water blades.

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I think this is more than enough to suggest Katara is around Todoroki's level in scale. If this came too fast to see, here's a hint of how large that wave is. Katara made this by simply raising her arms a bit for less than a second. Combustion Man, the guy that shot the explosive beam, is more than twice as large as Katara, and he looks like an ant, a joke compared to this wave.

And to avoid confusions with people not well-versed in Avatar, she can instantly flash freeze the water she manipulates.

So yeah, Katara's scale should be enough to compare to Shouto's immense speed and scale. But I also feel comfortable saying that Katara's water is considerably more powerful than his ice, meaning that the potency behind her attacks is superior.

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In this instance, she bends a wave that forces the Swamp Monster Huu away some stories. For context, Huu is durable enough to tank bombs thrown at him and strong enough to slam tanks and send them flying effortlessly. Those same bombs were busting submarines right after that, which is pretty impressive since submarines are built durable enough to resist the pressure of the water under the ocean (credit to my opponent for this argument).

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Here, her ice construct is capable of stalemating Toph's earth construct in power. Toph has enough power to defend against the bombs we were talking about before as well as defend against attacks good enough to destroy at least part of a giant refinery, a factory made of steel. We know Aang was going to succeed what he wanted with that fire blast since he was in the Avatar State atm (got out when he saw Toph interfering).

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And Katara's greatest feat would be when she slapped an entire warship 1000+ ft. away. Judging by how big these Fire Nation guards (should be around 6 ft. tall, average) seem in comparison to the ship's length (horizontally), the ship's back should be about 100 ft. long. And as we see in the gif, the ending result is the ships going from about 100 ft. distance to 10+ times more distance.

Control / Skill

Katara is absolutely leagues superior to Todoroki as far as control and skill over ice or water manipulation goes, however I won't post everything she has because of irrelevance in this particular fight. This is a crucial factor in this battle imo, allowing her to counter nearly everything he throws at her and have a more diverse set of abilities than him meaning an offence advantage.

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Katara can attack from right under her opponent's feet. Experienced Avatar characters might be expecting this to happen during battle because many benders have such abilities, but in the case of My Hero Academia, I haven't seeing anything suggesting they'd be expecting such unorthodox attacks.

Furthermore, the speed of this particular attack should be very impressive considering Toph failed to react to it. This was an on-combat situation but Toph has shown she can react to very fast things in non-combat situations consistently, such as Azula surprising Team Avatar by taking her firebending back at point blank range, and I think we can agree that Azula was one of the fastest characters in the series at this point.

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Here, she stops part of a rain in the middle of a storm and creates a water sphere out of the drops.

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And here, she creates an enormous barrage of ice spikes that she launches at Combustion Man, Shouto does have good piercing resistence, but this will at the very least slow him down enough for Katara to win if it hits.

Katara can also turn water into steam and manipulate it in such way that allows her to flash freeze anyone or anything around it on the spot. She can also draw water out of the air itself and use it for whatever her needs are.

A very important advantage Katara has over Shouto, is that she can manipulate the water or ice he throws at her, unlike him. Her anti-water defences are amazing. All 4 elements in Avatar have a philosophy of their own, and for water, it is redirecting the opponent's energy against them, manipulating their attack and redirecting it to use their own offence as your own, something Katara does all the time. To give you an idea, there's her fight with Hama, an old waterbending lady, her fight with Master Pakku, tht was also before she recieved formal training from him and the time she humiliated some children. In all of these instances, you can see Katara doing that against water, but I'd like to note that she can also do it against ice just as well, as we see here.

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It's pretty clear that she can turn an ice attack into water instantly and redirect back at the attacker. Just pointing it out because Shouto uses ice, not water.

Apart from all that, Katara has insanely good anti-water/ice defences exclusive to her.

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Here, she blocks Hama's huge, potent attack with a touch.

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And here, she newtralizes some water from Master Pakku's attack turning it into thin air.

I think all these come to show that Katara can defend from or even attack with Shouto's ice or at least part of it, meaning he shouldn't be able to overwhelm her, which is what his only option would be (with ice).

Moreover, I wanna note that Katara can use icebending to enhance her mobility in combat and dodge large, AoE attacks or outmanuveur her opposition.

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This might come in handy against Todoroki's fire manipulation as well. Anyway, noting that Azula (the woman who's throwing around all this blue fire) had an easy way to make sure Katara won't use her mobility there anymore. Her fire was melting whatever small amounts of water/ice she had to use there, this is an option your character doesn't unless he fully abuses his fire manipulation. Even then, Azula's fire is probably a lot more potent than anything he has (she was able to vaporize attacks from Katara before) and esspecially under Sozin's Comet (an amp that gets firebenders to crazy levels of power).

Last but not least, this is a trump card if worse comes to worst. Katara can and will use this technique in case Todoroki somehow manages to flash freeze her.

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Here, she is stuck on her own flash freeze, and she is turning the ice only around her own body into water so sge can move in there. And she can pretty much turn the entire ice construct into water and take it down, rendering most of Todoroki's abilities pretty much useless.

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It's basically that easy for Katara to escape flash freezes.

Physical Speed

Apart from agility and speed, Katara is nothing special physically, Todoroki stomps her in strength and durability etc. However, Katara is a good bit faster than him unless I'm missing something. MHA has a few feats that can be attributed as sonic-supersonic but even by scaling, I've never seeing Todoroki being that fast.

Now, in order to specify exactly how fast Katara is, I'm going to have to show a few feats from the Avatarverse in general in order to locate everyone on where these characters range speed-wise. For 2 obvious reasons, guns do not exist in Avatar. The events of the show take place in very old times, and it's a kids-friendly show. However, they have other ways of showing us how fast they are using bending moves, explosions, arrows etc.

1. The characters consistently react to, block and dodge explosions (subsonic to supersonic speeds)

Zuko defends against a close range explosion
Zuko defends against a close range explosion
Aang blocks an explosion going off at point blank range
Aang blocks an explosion going off at point blank range
Korra forms an air sphere to block an explosion
Korra forms an air sphere to block an explosion
Lin Beifong dodges an explosion going off udner her feet
Lin Beifong dodges an explosion going off udner her feet
Mako reacts to 1 out of the 3 explosions occuring from a distance and bends them away
Mako reacts to 1 out of the 3 explosions occuring from a distance and bends them away

2. The characters consistently content with electricity and lightning

Not only is lightning stated several times to be electricity:

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5OgUa1rCMw

3:13: "I'm gonna zap these vines with some electricity"- Mako

It's also used in Power Plants:

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And we've directly seen actual electricity in comparison to movement from benders:

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Here, Korra bends faster than the electricity from the Lieutenant's battons can reach her (notice that because of the speed difference Mako and Bolin did not make it, not every charater can just replicate these things and also notice that Korra's wave did not reach the Lieutenant cause it was too slow in comparison as well).

Electricity in water moves around almost 1% the speed of light which is actually still a lot faster than a bullet, 3 or 4 times faster. Lightning from firebenders is a bit slower than that based on its showings (characters struggle heavily working around it, but people like Mako and Bolin can still react), which at the very least makes it bullet speed or bullet speed+.

3. The characters consistently move at insane FTE speeds. Examples include:

Ming Hua appears out of nowhere (and it's pretty clear that the darkness was not enough to hide her when Mako jumped in)
Ming Hua appears out of nowhere (and it's pretty clear that the darkness was not enough to hide her when Mako jumped in)
Azula instantly hides inside the cart before she is hit by the broken debris.
Azula instantly hides inside the cart before she is hit by the broken debris.
And Azula started moving the very exact moment that we hear the debris breaking (you can see her leg last minute). Yet, she is not hit the slightest. Essentially, this is also the speed of sound or at least insanely FTE.
And Azula started moving the very exact moment that we hear the debris breaking (you can see her leg last minute). Yet, she is not hit the slightest. Essentially, this is also the speed of sound or at least insanely FTE.
And here Aang crosses around 70 ft. without being percieved.
And here Aang crosses around 70 ft. without being percieved.
Master Piandao appears from behind Sokka's back in front of him in a clear FTE showing.
Master Piandao appears from behind Sokka's back in front of him in a clear FTE showing.

4. Arrow Timers consistently get Blitzed

A Kyoshi Warrior could swat Mai's arrows out of the air, and Ty Lee, the pink girl who used pressure points, lolblitzed her. Mai, the kife thrower, also blitzed her when she used her combat speed to attack (the arrows come from automatic, mechanical shooters but throwing her knives requires body movement which is too fast for the Kyoshi Warriors).

This is only one example. I could give other showings to show consistency but I think you yourself can agree with me on them.

5. Seismic Sense

Toph, a blind master earthbender in A:TLA invented a technique known as "Seismic Sense" in order to be able to see. She feels the vibrations of the ground and uses earth manipulation to build a nigh-perfect image of everything around her that touches the ground. It works like Matt's Radar btw, meaning that apart from allowing her to "see", it also offers a 360 degree view on the environment. Anyway, the important thing is, the technique is actually based on "Echolocation", a way blind people in RL have to percieve their surroundings, something you also mentioned in yuor opener. However, unlike people in RL, Toph's technique is so advanced and precise that it's ridiculous. She can see things that others cannot, such as the tiny ants on the surface of the ground or even underground. She can see when someone is hiding something which has helped her in encounters with Mai and Azula that ultize hidden weaponary. This type of precision, allowed her to become a master combatant using echolocation and reacting at the very, very, exact moment a vibration is made, the clearest moment being when they explained how it works through a combat situation from her vs The Boulder, another earthbender (that she pretty much blitzed). Watch 2:20 in the video below:

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4RSnwsHjto&t=146s

This is essentially reacting to sound waves = reacting to sound = reacting at the speed of sound = reacting to bullet speed. Let me remind you that Toph does it all the time, it's her way of life, her way of percieveing the environment and her way of fighting. Aang and Toph's daughter from LoK also used Seismic Sense plenty of times BTW.

Conclusively, I believe characters in the Avatarverse (high and top tiers) range from roughly sonic to supersonic reaction and movement/combat speeds (supersonic is only valid to 4, at best 5 specific characters and Katara isn't one of them).

Now...

How fast is Katara individually?

Katara is no speedster by Avatar standards but she is still good enough to suggest she would be capable of reacting to projectiles at the speed of sound or a tad above.

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Here, she dodges one of Azula's lightningbolts after it was fired.

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Toph, the earthbender we were talking about before, could barely block Mai's daggers on time, yet Katara manages to do the same thing, attack her back, turn around, incap Ty Lee and turn back to block another attack from Mai at close range. Ty Lee's travel speed (while running) is also very impressive as she could keep up with Azula using fire to propel herself even while maintaining balance on a tightrope.

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Azula is not only extremely fast, with a FTE showing and her ability to match or exceed Zuko's combat speed (the same Zuko who reacted to explosions), but she's also a master martial artist. Katara took her on here, and managed to pressure her at close range.

Sorry for the poor size of the gif.
Sorry for the poor size of the gif.

Katara can also exchange attacks with Zuko at point blank tange herself, which is pretty impressive.

Katara's Advantages & Gameplan

Katara has quite a few of key advantages to suggest she can win here.

  • Potency: First of all, unless I missed something, her water and ice attacks should be a good bit stronger and more potent than Todoroki's which will allow her to counter his immense speed and scale with her own comparable one
  • Speed: Katara should be a good bit faster combat speed-wise imo.
  • Control / Elemental Manipulation: Katara has ways to counter everything Shouto brings to the table with her much more diverse skillset.

The safest game for Katara here would be to get on an ice ramp and try to outmanuveur Shouto while spamming large waves at him to try and flash freeze him. As a trump card, she has ways to escape his flash freezes if she gets tagged and her supeior combat speed should allow her to at least counter his super fast AoE in time with her defencive techniques. Furthermore, I can't think of any ways (yet at least) in which Shouto can counter her battlefield control with underground attacks, she can just flash freeze him on the spot with that if she goes for it.
There are more things to disscuss, mainly in the draw and attack speed / scale between them I think but this should do it for now.

@deathhero61 Your move!

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#35 Edited by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio

WAIT, I forgot to put in a couple of links for evidence. Gimme a moment.

EDIT: Alright.

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#36 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: That was solid. I'll have a post soon.

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#37 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@huskii said:

Lmao is that supposed to be a burn scar?! The originality is so blatantly clear.

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If you read the series, and do a comparison on their backgrounds at the very least they have very similar family issues. So you wouldn't be wrong.

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#38 Edited by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

BTW when reading Manga, read from right to left.

@anthp2000:Solid post, and you even covered the inner workings of the Avatar universe since I am using a character outside the verse, impressive work. But Katara is simply outclassed here for many reasons.

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In the age of heroes, many aspire to be like the symbol of peace, in a era where villains literally give up their career just due to his existence, its impossible for many people to be like or on par with All Might, but he does have rivals, Endeavor for example was one of them in a sense, and ever since his child was born, he used him as nothing but a tool to surpass All Might, roughly training him and abusing Shouto and his mother. Because of said training which was practically child abuse, Shouto never wanted to be a hero like his father and branched off, Shouto had the powers of his mother and his father, and only used his mother's ice powers(IIIRC) and it took a little inspiration from everyone's favorite character Izuku Midoriya a successor to All Might, to push him forward to become better and use all his power to the best of his ability. Todoroki Shouto, when coming to UA, was the elite of the elite of his class, I mean characters like Bakugo were impressive, and Izuku eventually came far himself, but Todoroki had the most efficient and deadly way of fighting, and its far different from Katara's dance like fighting which take up several movements, allowing Todoroki to counter in the midst of it. And at the end of my post I will go into why there's a huge difference between Katatra's ice and Todoroki's ice.(BTW I'm probably going to constantly refer to him as Shouto or Todoroki so sorry in advance for the confusion)

Also the anime is a copy and paste of the manga(it follows the manga almost perfectly with little to no flaws and maybe one or two extra things,) I may use it to better visualize certain feats for the audience, just a heads up.

Ice Manipulation.

Katara water is great an all, but it really isn't enough to win this fight, nor is her ice bending, Shouto is quite frankly on another level.

Precision/Raw Power/Ability Speed: freezes the entire layout of a multi-storey building even effectively getting his target in seconds. He does this immediately, as soon as the fight starts leaving no room to react or even do a thing about it.

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Power/Precision: Freezes giant robot and does it in a way where it would fall down and block opposing contestants. Katara is not blocking or dodging that type of AOE, notice how in this instance Shouto directs his ice instead of simply letting it spread out. Anime Version, in case you can't tell what's going on: Anime Version

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Range/Area of Effect: freezes several villains solid. Pretty much all of these villains had quirks and superhuman abilities, but yet they couldn't do a thing.

Scale: Creates several ice pillars as an attempt to stone wall Stain the Hero Killer. He has defended against his attacks before, but a widespread wall like this is bound to be filled with weak points.

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Precision: Freezes Noumu while he's grabbing All Might.

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I'll show more feats in the physicals section, for now I'm just giving you a basic rundown. It will be easier to get things certain feats across while discussing speed or durability and the like.

Fire Manipulation

If I am being honest, Shouto's fire manipulation tops anything I've seen most benders do, at least in terms of control and power. Power is a little trickier to argue, but he has the feats to suggest such. But to start off, remember that multi-story building feat? Well he was able to evaporate all that without burning anybody.

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His heat can be felt from the audience seats. Anime Version

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His fire attacks have a big AOE, being able to spread across most of an alleyway

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Easily creates a large fire blast that can be rather comparable to the clash between Azula and Zuko in Smoke and Shadows.

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Potency: Temporarily KOs Stain when Izuku, and Iida couldn't do so with their combined attacks a few pages before. Also this is a precision feat since Izuku and Iida were also in the air with him.

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Scale/Speed:Completely stomps Sero, before he could take him out of bounds. The scale of the attack is equal if not beyond what Katara has done with a large source of water. Although there is plenty of water to work with here, it truly says something when a bloodlusted attack like this can be fired off that quickly, and casually as well.

Combinations/Skill/

The thing that makes Shouto so interesting in combat is how he uses his abilities in conjunction with each other. For example, when Shouto was helping fend off Stain, he launched a fire attack while he was in mid-air then followed up with an ice slide that caught Izuku and Iida while they were in midair, while simultaneously separating Izuku and Iida while they were sliding down.

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Goes for a low attack, forcing stain to jump then quickly follows up with a fire attack, Stain wouldn't have been able to dodge if it wasn't for the alleyway having walls to kick off of, a combination attack like this would be harder to avoid in a 1v1 confrontation where Shouto doesn't have to worry about friendly fire(in the scans you'll notice he makes sure not to accidently completely freeze his allies)

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In a race almost outsped a guy with a wind quirk via stacking ice on top of each other as a form of mobility.(I can show more feats for said wind user later if necessary)

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Rebounds from being thrown, creates a ice slide to help him rebound, while simultaneously attacking, then proceeds to counter a blitz from Bakugo.

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Unlike Katara and practically most benders in the Avatar Verse, Shouto can activate his powers while barely exhibiting any type of movement. In the time it takes Katara to do a decent stance, despite her reflexes, Shouto will already have an attack out.

Physicals(Speed/Durability)

Surprisingly enough, Shouto has decent reflexes keeping up with the top tiers of his class like Izuku and Bakugo, the former who has feats of keeping up with FTE combatants in close quarters and his extremely agile, while Bakugo who also has mad skills and speed. I'll dig into that later, but take away major scaling and has pretty solid feats regardless.

For example his most notable one which I consider above most of what Katara has done, is being able to create the same technique he used against Sero in a literal blink of an eye

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An attack that large being able to cover such a distance in such a short interval IMHO is above pretty much most characters in Avatar.

He has the reflexes to react to blitzes from Iida who is pretty similar to Aang with his airbending speed(running speed wise)

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Sure he didn't have the reflexes to keep it up, but he reacted to the initial blitz, then reacted again to his second blitz by instantly freezing his leg right after getting hit by Iida, which is impressive. Anime Version

To give you an idea, Iida using Recipro Burst, can move FTE. Anime Version

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Here's a better example

Dodges a knife throw and although just barely, managed to defend against a blitz from Stain The Hero Killer.

Crosses several tightropes, its unclear if he used his powers or his actual agility for this feat, but either one is impressive.

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Durability: Shouto is no glass cannon, here he tanks a large wind pressure caused by the force of Izuku's punch which not only shatter some of his ice but could be felt from the stands as well. Admittedly, Shouto did have to brace himself to a degree to tank it and had to put up a defense. Anime Version. I'd say he's durable as Zuko.

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Durability: Manages to take a punch from Izuku. Even while holding back and trying to control his power, Izuku has some solid striking strength feats. There's no guarnatee that Izuku was hitting Shouto that hard, but that should just give you a general idea on how superhuman Izuku is.(Then again 5% Full Cowl is generally weaker than what you see there)

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Piercing/Cutting: He has somewhat decent cutting resistance, taking knives to the arm and still being able to keep fighting.

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Gear(minor section, you don't have to look at it)

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Random Counters

Katara is absolutely leagues superior to Todoroki as far as control and skill over ice or water manipulation goes, however I won't post everything she has because of irrelevance in this particular fight. This is a crucial factor in this battle imo, allowing her to counter nearly everything he throws at her and have a more diverse set of abilities than him meaning an offence advantage.

Here's the thing, this doesn't matter, Todoroki's scale is so much above Katara's that its ridiculous, not only that, while I'm at it, lets address the difference between Todoroki's ice and Katara's ice.

First off, the temperature difference is huge and the damage it does is a lot more dangerous, when Todoroki freezes someone, it can potentially give them frostbite or kill them if not properly controlled. Look at the extent people are frozen. And compare it to say Katara's fight against Azula. Two different levels. Another example is his debut of his abilities. When someone in Avatar gets frozen, it doesn't affect their skin, it doesn't majorly hurt them. For example, when AS Korra froze Zaheer's leg while bloodlusted, it didn't do much to him. In the case of Todoroki, if someone tried to forcefully remove ice like that they'd probably rip their skin off due to the difference in temperatures and how it affects your body. IIRC Azula also broke ice off her legs without any repercussions.

Second, the raw speed combined with his scale. No avatar character to my knowledge has the level of speed Todoroki has with his element. He created a multi-storey ice construct in less than a second as I showed already.

Third, there are limitatons that benders have that Shouto doesn't such as gestures, where as Shouto can use his powers without moving. Shouto has mobility, has reflexes, and power. I will continue noting some differences as I go through some of your post.

A very important advantage Katara has over Shouto, is that she can manipulate the water or ice he throws at her, unlike him. Her anti-water defences are amazing. All 4 elements in Avatar have a philosophy of their own, and for water, it is redirecting the opponent's energy against them, manipulating their attack and redirecting it to use their own offence as your own, something Katara does all the time. To give you an idea, there's her fight with Hama, an old waterbending lady, her fight with Master Pakku, tht was also before she recieved formal training from him and the time she humiliated some children. In all of these instances, you can see Katara doing that against water, but I'd like to note that she can also do it against ice just as well, as we see here.

There's a few things you are going to have to prove.

A) Prove that she can negate or manipulate ice with the amount of scale and power his has

B) Prove that manipulating ice blocks or snow, is the same thing as manipulating frost or ice attacks that freeze down to the skin and bone. There's a huge difference between this:

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And this.

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Katara was encasing Zuko in ice, which isn't all that, where as Todoroki FREEZES his targets. One of these are far easier to get out of and resist. While the other can be a one hit KO if bloodlusted and directed at a target. Sure Katara has the raw power and defense and mobility to protect herself, therefore making this a fight, but manipulating shouto's ice seems kind of impossible since nobody in Avatar manipulates ice like this to begin with.

C) Prove that Katara's experience against weaker ice benders can translate to someone like Shouto who not only has just as much mobility but can use his powers without even moving, making predicting attacks a lot harder.

Moreover, I wanna note that Katara can use icebending to enhance her mobility in combat and dodge large, AoE attacks or outmanuveur her opposition.

This might come in handy against Todoroki's fire manipulation as well. Anyway, noting that Azula (the woman who's throwing around all this blue fire) had an easy way to make sure Katara won't use her mobility there anymore. Her fire was melting whatever small amounts of water/ice she had to use there, this is an option your character doesn't unless he fully abuses his fire manipulation. Even then, Azula's fire is probably a lot more potent than anything he has (she was able to vaporize attacks from Katara before) and esspecially under Sozin's Comet (an amp that gets firebenders to crazy levels of power).

AOE attacks would be impossible to dodge, I wanna make note that the AOE Azula's attacks covered in that fight aren't the same as the AOE that Todoroki's attacks can cover, for example. say Katara is busy on her tsunamis or ice slides, with the range and the speed his attacks come out at, would you really say its possible to avoid such large scale attacks with ice slides? Maybe if she made use of the buildings as well while using her mobility sure, but trying to do the same thing she did here with Azula won't cut it, because those fire blasts that she dodged didn't have much AOE.

I can see it definitely being useful against his fire manipulation since based off feats it covers a smaller area, but Katara has to find a way to make use of her surroundings while simultaneously dodging if she wants to avoid his Ice. And Shouto's fire is pretty potent being able to evaporate his own ice structures(and no he isn't a bender so he cannot turn his ice into water so he would only be able to do it with fire)

Last but not least, this is a trump card if worse comes to worst. Katara can and will use this technique in case Todoroki somehow manages to flash freeze her.

Here, she is stuck on her own flash freeze, and she is turning the ice only around her own body into water so sge can move in there. And she can pretty much turn the entire ice construct into water and take it down, rendering most of Todoroki's abilities pretty much useless.

Nice try, but Katara made it thin enough for her to perform this trick in the first place. She has never shown this trump card against other benders, and you really think Shouto would sit there while she tries to get out even if she could do this? She had to precisely bend the ice around her for a few seconds, then bend the ice into water.

Apart from agility and speed, Katara is nothing special physically, Todoroki stomps her in strength and durability etc. However, Katara is a good bit faster than him unless I'm missing something. MHA has a few feats that can be attributed as sonic-supersonic but even by scaling, I've never seeing Todoroki being that fast.

Todoroki has plenty of speed feats like I showed, keeping up with FTE opponents, launching his attacks faster than a blink of an eye. I'll dig deeper into characters like Izuku, Stain and Bakugo, and the like in my next post, but for now I feel i presented enough evidence to back Todoroki actually being faster. All that subsonic- super sonic nonsense can wait for our characters.

  • Potency: First of all, unless I missed something, her water and ice attacks should be a good bit stronger and more potent than Todoroki's which will allow her to counter his immense speed and scale with her own comparable one
  • Speed: Katara should be a good bit faster combat speed-wise imo.
  • Control / Elemental Manipulation: Katara has ways to counter everything Shouto brings to the table with her much more diverse skillset.

The safest game for Katara here would be to get on an ice ramp and try to outmanuveur Shouto while spamming large waves at him to try and flash freeze him. As a trump card, she has ways to escape his flash freezes if she gets tagged and her supeior combat speed should allow her to at least counter his super fast AoE in time with her defencive techniques. Furthermore, I can't think of any ways (yet at least) in which Shouto can counter her battlefield control with underground attacks, she can just flash freeze him on the spot with that if she goes for it.

There are more things to disscuss, mainly in the draw and attack speed / scale between them I think but this should do it for now.

The only thing matching Todoroki's ice in potency and sheer force was Bakugo's constant explosions and Izuku's Delaware Smashes which both pack more of a punch than what I've seen Katara do consistently. But we'll see.

Speed legit goes to Todoroki, his attacks come out faster and cross a large distance a lot faster than any water bending attack shown consistently in the series, they aren't delayed by time wasting stances, and they can be done with little to no movement in the right situations. The best part is I haven't even dug into the characters he scales with such as Izuku and Bakugo.

Most of the control and techniques ride on the possibility of bending something like Shouto's ice. Along with the fact that despite her anti-water/anti-ice defenses, she has no counter to a flash freeze asides from a bending technique she used herself while freezing Azula.

Summary

My character is the better fighter, has the tools to immediately overpower Katara before she could do a thing, and has a more impressive track record, his feats are overall more impressive at face value and when you dig even deeper, this matchup seems a lot more in Shouto's favor than you might think. Katara's techniques are not guaranteed to work out as you say and generally, she has no real defense to his attacks, they cover a large range almost immediately, and it takes a lot of force to break his ice constructs,

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#39 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Edited by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: I'll have a post up tommorow most likely. That other CaV was huge and I have the tourney too. Fortunately, the big stuff is gone for now lol

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#42 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio

"Here for another scar you Zutara bender-wannabe?"

Countering Shouto

Power/Precision: Freezes giant robot and does it in a way where it would fall down and block opposing contestants. Katara is not blocking or dodging that type of AOE, notice how in this instance Shouto directs his ice instead of simply letting it spread out. Anime Version, in case you can't tell what's going on: Anime Version

That's a great feat but it's more precision (that Katara doesn't lack) than power. From what I can tell (mostly based on the video too), he more covered the robot on ice, he didn't exactly threw a giant ice construct or anything (tho he can clearly do that). Plus it take time, so yeah, Katara can dodge it with her icebending and block it with her even larger ice walls.

Potency: Temporarily KOs Stain when Izuku, and Iida couldn't do so with their combined attacks a few pages before. Also this is a precision feat since Izuku and Iida were also in the air with him.

Any durability feats for these guys? Azula could one shot people like Zuko and Iroh with her most casual and small fireballs, and when their attacks clashed here, they were evenly matched with Katara. Zuko is durable enough to tank gas explosions at point blank range while Iroh can no-sell small rock projectiles from the elite earthbenders, Dai Li. That doesn't mean Katara can one shot Zuko or Iroh with water blasts but Azula's probably a lot stronger in fire manipulation than them and it justs shows Katara can actually defend against that with her own attacks.

Goes for a low attack, forcing stain to jump then quickly follows up with a fire attack, Stain wouldn't have been able to dodge if it wasn't for the alleyway having walls to kick off of, a combination attack like this would be harder to avoid in a 1v1 confrontation where Shouto doesn't have to worry about friendly fire(in the scans you'll notice he makes sure not to accidently completely freeze his allies)

That's a great combo but you're forgetting that Katara has much, much superior battlefield control with her own attacks (that I still see no way for Shouto to counter them) coming from right underground. As for her countering the move itself, that wouldn't work in the first place. Katara can manipulate the ice to her own advantage. She won't be forced to jump.

In a race almost outsped a guy with a wind quirk via stacking ice on top of each other as a form of mobility.(I can show more feats for said wind user later if necessary)

I'll only note that Katara's ice surfing is superior and she can attack from there unlike Shouto. If he tries to reach higher ground or something Katara can descend herself with a water spout.

Unlike Katara and practically most benders in the Avatar Verse, Shouto can activate his powers while barely exhibiting any type of movement. In the time it takes Katara to do a decent stance, despite her reflexes, Shouto will already have an attack out.

Yes, benders need stances to perform their biggest moves but that's only partly true for master benders, and Katara is up there on the top. For example she barely needed to raise her hands to create this enormous, multistory wave that could even stop an enormous blast from Combustion Man.

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It's perfectly true that Shouto has better draw speed combined with scale than the vast majority of benders out there, but it's not an overwhelming advantage here.

For example his most notable one which I consider above most of what Katara has done, is being able to create the same technique he used against Sero in a literal blink of an eye

An attack that large being able to cover such a distance in such a short interval IMHO is above pretty much most characters in Avatar.

It is definetely above most if not all of them, but it's not overwhelming as I showed above.

Dodges a knife throw and although just barely, managed to defend against a blitz from Stain The Hero Killer.

Like I thought, his reaction speed is rather unimpressive compared to Katara's, so basically, what if Katara starts spamming knife-like projectiles at him? This scans shows he could very easily be left vulnerable against good fire rate.

For example.

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What if she goes for an attack like this, or high volume ice spikes that will prove near impossible to dodge. Sure, he can block them with his ice I guess, but how come he didn't do it here for instance?

Durability: Shouto is no glass cannon, here he tanks a large wind pressure caused by the force of Izuku's punch which not only shatter some of his ice but could be felt from the stands as well. Admittedly, Shouto did have to brace himself to a degree to tank it and had to put up a defense. Anime Version. I'd say he's durable as Zuko.

That wasn't a direct hit (like you showed, his ice construct took much more damage than him, he was behind) unless that wind is so super ridiculously powerful. I still haven't seen enough of his ice constructs that suggest they are strong enough to even compare to Katara's best attacks so I disagree that he's as durable as Zuko, someone Katara can actually hurt pretty badly with her ice constructs.

Defending Katara

Here's the thing, this doesn't matter, Todoroki's scale is so much above Katara's that its ridiculous,

I still don't see how Katara cannot at least compare with this. Add in that her water packs more force than his eyes and you have a recipe for raw power that's more than enough to fight Todoroki.

not only that, while I'm at it, lets address the difference between Todoroki's ice and Katara's ice.

First off, the temperature difference is huge and the damage it does is a lot more dangerous, when Todoroki freezes someone, it can potentially give them frostbite or kill them if not properly controlled. Look at the extent people are frozen. And compare it to say Katara's fight against Azula. Two different levels.

Two different levels referring to what?

Another example is his debut of his abilities. When someone in Avatar gets frozen, it doesn't affect their skin, it doesn't majorly hurt them. For example, when AS Korra froze Zaheer's leg while bloodlusted, it didn't do much to him. In the case of Todoroki, if someone tried to forcefully remove ice like that they'd probably rip their skin off due to the difference in temperatures and how it affects your body.

First off, Zaheer was frozen for like a couple of seconds there. When Katara flash froze the Rough Rhinos, their leader noted that he could not feel his arms and that's only after a few seconds.

Did anyone try to ever break out of his ice and fail because of this? What do you mean the temperature difference? I'd like to note again that Katara can manipulate the pressure of water so much that she can make tiny (liquid) water blades cut clean or just break steel.

IIRC Azula also broke ice off her legs without any repercussions.

Yeah but it was a very tiny flash freeze the size of her foot, so it's not that relevant. Plus, Azula has very strong legs and it was long after Katara froze her.

Second, the raw speed combined with his scale. No avatar character to my knowledge has the level of speed Todoroki has with his element. He created a multi-storey ice construct in less than a second as I showed already. Third, there are limitatons that benders have that Shouto doesn't such as gestures, where as Shouto can use his powers without moving. Shouto has mobility, has reflexes, and power. I will continue noting some differences as I go through some of your post.

Yes, it's true, but Katara can still compare as I showed.

A) Prove that she can negate or manipulate ice with the amount of scale

Here's the thing. She won't be needing to manipulate all of his attacks, just part of it to defend herself or redirect his offence. For example AoE attacks are good because they have a high chance to hit someone even moving around but when they do hit this someone (who was moving around), he can defend against it like he would with any kind of attack (AoE or not). To give you an idea of what I mean, Katara would only need to aim for specific parts of the attack, like the middle in order to pretect herself sort of like what King Bumi did here with earthbending or even better, what Katara herself did when she was angry:

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Cracks the center of the giant iceberg and destroys it. That's also BoS Katara, who was a rookie watrbender with little to no precise control. Furthermore, it's what she did to help the Gaang go through the Serpent's Pass,

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See, she manipulates only this little part of the entire ocean to go through without the water touching her. Why can't see do similar stuff here since I showed she can instantly turn his ice into water while redirecting attacks?

and power his has

Katara could bitchslap a warship more than 1000 ft. away. I'm sure she has more sheer power behind her attacks.

B) Prove that manipulating ice blocks or snow, is the same thing as manipulating frost or ice attacks that freeze down to the skin and bone. There's a huge difference between this:

And this.

Katara was encasing Zuko in ice, which isn't all that, where as Todoroki FREEZES his targets. One of these are far easier to get out of and resist. While the other can be a one hit KO if bloodlusted and directed at a target. Sure Katara has the raw power and defense and mobility to protect herself, therefore making this a fight, but manipulating shouto's ice seems kind of impossible since nobody in Avatar manipulates ice like this to begin with.

That's not at all what Katara or waterbenders do. Zuko was free to move around in that ice sphere because Katara encased him on water and flash froze the water (which was around him). Waterbenders encase others on ice in a different manner all the time, it's what Katara did to Azula here, it's what she did to Zuko here.

However, I think I get what you mean by showing me this instance of Todoroki freezing the robot. Waterbenders have done it before and it's not at all different than what Katara does in numerous situations:

against Jet
against Jet
against Huu
against Huu
when a Fire Nation ship attacked them
when a Fire Nation ship attacked them
when they entered the giant drill
when they entered the giant drill

It's just that unlike Todoroki's gestures, Katara blows a trail to freeze things like this.

C) Prove that Katara's experience against weaker ice benders can translate to someone like Shouto

Clearly, Master Pakku or Hama are not as impressive as Todoroki but I'd argue they are in Katara's league considering Pakku was stated to be one of the strongest waterbending masters in the world, and Hama had very solid scale and was good enough to manipulate water out of thin air. Her experience against these people and the immense defence against hydrokinesis she showed there is very relevant in this fight. I don't think Shouto has even faced any other water/ice manipulator before.

who not only has just as much mobility but can use his powers without even moving, making predicting attacks a lot harder.

  • Does he really have as much mobility?
  • It's not like his attacks are so tricky. He creates giant ice constructs, no too much philosphy behind the attack.

AOE attacks would be impossible to dodge, I wanna make note that the AOE Azula's attacks covered in that fight aren't the same as the AOE that Todoroki's attacks can cover, for example. say Katara is busy on her tsunamis or ice slides, with the range and the speed his attacks come out at, would you really say its possible to avoid such large scale attacks with ice slides?

Again, you're forgetting that Azula's fire was melting Katara's ice ramps in that fight. Todoroki has no such capabilities.

Maybe if she made use of the buildings as well while using her mobility sure, but trying to do the same thing she did here with Azula won't cut it, because those fire blasts that she dodged didn't have much AOE.

They were very big fire blasts. My point is that she can dodge his fire attacks while she can move around while countering his ice attacks (a nice combination).

I can see it definitely being useful against his fire manipulation since based off feats it covers a smaller area, but Katara has to find a way to make use of her surroundings while simultaneously dodging if she wants to avoid his Ice. And Shouto's fire is pretty potent being able to evaporate his own ice structures(and no he isn't a bender so he cannot turn his ice into water so he would only be able to do it with fire)

It's definetely leagues less potent than Azula's under Sozin's Comet, I think we can agree on that, so melting her ice is out of the game. As for Katara making use of the environment, I agree. This location is pretty complex and Katara's battlefieled awareness is great. Here's only a couple of instances when she makes best use of her surroundings in combat:

I think particularly the first one is extremely impressive. There are more instacnes but I think that's enough for now.

Nice try, but Katara made it thin enough for her to perform this trick in the first place. She has never shown this trump card against other benders,

It wasn't thin, it was pretty thick actually considering she could freely move her and Azula's body around sideways in there without any trouble. It wasn't a huge flash freeze because (a) she didn't need one and (b) the water down the sewers was very limited as a source. She never needed to use this against other benders, I mean, no one ever managed to flash freeze her or something.

and you really think Shouto would sit there while she tries to get out even if she could do this? She had to precisely bend the ice around her for a few seconds, then bend the ice into water.

She simply blew a trail using her nose. The scene took so many seconds because she was chaining Azula up in there. Of course she could turn the ice into water with a gesutre from the beginning like she did, but again, she wouldn't need to bend the entire flash freeze. That said, no, I'm not sure if she can do it fast enough before he attacks her with something else so I'll not focus on this strategy. I already can't see him freezing her in the first place.

Todoroki has plenty of speed feats like I showed, keeping up with FTE opponents, launching his attacks faster than a blink of an eye. I'll dig deeper into characters like Izuku, Stain and Bakugo, and the like in my next post, but for now I feel i presented enough evidence to back Todoroki actually being faster. All that subsonic- super sonic nonsense can wait for our characters.

Only type of speed he's better than Katara at is draw speed with his ice manipulation whereas for now Katara holds a good bit physical speed advantage though I'll wait for your next resopnse.

The only thing matching Todoroki's ice in potency and sheer force was Bakugo's constant explosions and Izuku's Delaware Smashes which both pack more of a punch than what I've seen Katara do consistently. But we'll see.

I'll wait for their feats then.

Speed legit goes to Todoroki, his attacks come out faster and cross a large distance a lot faster than any water bending attack shown consistently in the series, they aren't delayed by time wasting stances, and they can be done with little to no movement in the right situations. The best part is I haven't even dug into the characters he scales with such as Izuku and Bakugo.

Yeah, draw speed (and travel speed of his ice attacks I guess) is clearly in his favor.

Most of the control and techniques ride on the possibility of bending something like Shouto's ice. Along with the fact that despite her anti-water/anti-ice defenses, she has no counter to a flash freeze asides from a bending technique she used herself while freezing Azula.

Since she can manipulate ice in the same ways and she has those great defences + her mobility, she should be able to handle his offence.

My character is the better fighter,

In which way?

has the tools to immediately overpower Katara before she could do a thing,

I'd say her speed, mobility and power are enough to suggest that's not true.

and has a more impressive track record,

Meh, Katara has a track record against many impressive master benders (some of them more impressive than Todoroki imo) as well as skilled non-bendig fighters. Doesn't say much.

his feats are overall more impressive at face value and when you dig even deeper, this matchup seems a lot more in Shouto's favor than you might think. Katara's techniques are not guaranteed to work out as you say and generally, she has no real defense to his attacks, they cover a large range almost immediately, and it takes a lot of force to break his ice constructs,

They should work out as much as they do against other benders. Sure, Todoroki has massive scale and draw speed but master waterbenders like Hama and Pakku also have better control over ice than him.

Conclusion

I'm sticking with the fact that Katara's skillset is so more diverse and versatile that it's not even funny. I mean, there's a reason she's the most versatile bender in the Avatarverse. She can attack from many different directions such as the ground right below Todoroki's feet and as the fight continues things only get worse for him. Water and ice are going to spread around the battlefield more and more, giving Katara massive opportunities to do what she alwaysdoes and attack from all around the battlefieldusing leftovers. Her water/ice is strong enough and large enough to make sure his attacks won't get to her while I simply can't see him fighting off all these different options Katara has to approach this fight.

@deathhero61 Sorry for the wait.

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#43 Posted by ShemarVibes (10 posts) - - Show Bio

Shouto wins the debate.

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#44 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

@shemarvibes: First of all Shouto isn't the one debating here and second, the debate hasn't finished yet so you can't vote.

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#45 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: I'll have a post either today or the absolute latest saturday.

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#46 Edited by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000:

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Defending Todoroki

That's a great feat but it's more precision (that Katara doesn't lack) than power. From what I can tell (mostly based on the video too), he more covered the robot on ice, he didn't exactly threw a giant ice construct or anything (tho he can clearly do that). Plus it take time, so yeah, Katara can dodge it with her icebending and block it with her even larger ice walls.

It only takes time to set it up, throwing the attack however is a different issue.

Any durability feats for these guys? Azula could one shot people like Zuko and Iroh with her most casual and small fireballs, and when their attacks clashed here, they were evenly matched with Katara. Zuko is durable enough to tank gas explosions at point blank rangewhile Iroh can no-sell small rock projectiles from the elite earthbenders, Dai Li. That doesn't mean Katara can one shot Zuko or Iroh with water blasts but Azula's probably a lot stronger in fire manipulation than them and it justs shows Katara can actually defend against that with her own attacks.

Stain was tanking attacks from 5 percent Deku who can shatter concrete/cement with a single kick.

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And he's also capable of smashing steel weapons with his kicks. Here's a closer look at his weapon

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Izuku while using 5 percent hits a little harder than some bending attacks IMO.

That's a great combo but you're forgetting that Katara has much, much superior battlefield control with her own attacks (that I still see no way for Shouto to counter them) coming from right underground. As for her countering the move itself, that wouldn't work in the first place. Katara can manipulate the ice to her own advantage. She won't be forced to jump.

A thing to consider about this feat is there is no way to tell how thick the ground was here. Look at the location one more time, unless he is right under a bridge or something or directly under an area where water would be directly under, Katara wouldn't be able to pull this off.

She hasn't faced any other ice benders asides from Pakku and we saw how that went, there is no guarantee she'd be able to stop Shoto's Ice so easily. Plus like I said a 1-2 combo, as she's trying to avoid or stop the ice, he goes for a fire attack suckerpunch to hit her mid action.

I'll only note that Katara's ice surfing is superior and she can attack from there unlike Shouto. If he tries to reach higher ground or something Katara can descend herself with a water spout.

Shoto shoots fire out of his hands, why wouldn't he be able to attack while on the move? Especially since he can also use mobility in a similar fashion to Katara(creates a floor of ice and runs/skates across it)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UBMAA6LBIs

Just take a look at the entire obstacle course race and you'll notice that Bakugo who was using his explosions in a faster fashion than jet propulsion to cross a minefield, while Shoto was using his ice as a way to speed up his running.(start at the 5 minute mark) This was to chase after Deku who propelled himself at insane speeds via a mine explosion. I want to make note when he triggered a second explosion, Bakugo and Shoto took outright tanked that blast at point blank range. Although it wasn't as big,(it was only one or two mines whereas the previous explosion was several mines packed together.)

Yes, benders need stances to perform their biggest moves but that's only partly true for master benders, and Katara is up there on the top. For example she barely needed to raise her hands to create this enormous, multistory wave that could even stop an enormous blast from Combustion Man.

That move was clearly a charged technique, the amount of effort and time she put into that technique doesn't compare to the amount of effort Shoto put in to doing what he did in his fight against Sero.....the anime version took some time, but the manga version was practically instant, I can't think of anyone who has bending speed/draw speed on par with Todoroki except Azula via instant lightning, and Team Avatar was put on the ropes when it came to dealing with that IIRC

And honestly that water attack took forever to prep in Katara's case, let's look at Shouto's feat again, look how large the stadium is

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Here's the video again

https://youtu.be/7dzPFqPoXpA?t=25

watch till 1:51, and that should give you a great Idea on how large the construct was and how far it traveled.

Here's another image to give you an idea of distance

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To give another actual solid idea on combat speed lets go back to Iida. Remember, Iida at full speed is ACTUALLY FTE, he can physically run at speeds faster than the eye can track. Although Todoroki only had the reaction speed to dodge attacks, he still had his powers, that being said, he was capable of tagging him as he attacked.

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Like I thought, his reaction speed is rather unimpressive compared to Katara's, so basically, what if Katara starts spamming knife-like projectiles at him? This scans shows he could very easily be left vulnerable against good fire rate.

I wanna make note that Stain The Hero Killer is faster than both of our characters, he was severely holding back against Izuku, Todoroki and Iida, and they are all fast combatants. He easily dodged most of their attacks. Izuku himself is pretty fast and agile when using the full cowl. Combat speed wise, I'd put him close to Aang or Ty Lee, his agility is more like Ty Lee's or Ming-Hua's except not as fluid. To start off, Izuku when he finally got a grasp on his powers, was agile enough to dodge several different attacks from different heroes all at once.

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Before he got a grasp of it he was training with Gran Torino, Gran Torino is a good deal faster than Aang based off feats, and he's solidly impressive, although Izuku isn't on his level, he took training from him, and eventually managed to just barely tag him through skill and tactics, but before I get to that, let's look at things at a chronological order. First Gran Torino's abilities.

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He can move at FTE speeds, definitely at a far greater degree than Iida and is plenty agile.

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Although Izuku had a tough time even perceiving him, the speed his full cowl gave him, allowed for a decent enough edge for him to almost tag Gran Torino.

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Izuku just barely grazed him, but his quick thinking and reflexes truly helped

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Anime Version:

https://youtu.be/TECdsMxW8gY

So how did he fair against Stain?

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He seemingly did good, but Stain was pretty much faking it.

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In case you're wondering, Stain has a special ability similar to bloodbending, but he has to consume the blood of his opponents for it to work(even a small amount would work) which is why he only went for a small nick.

Stain was generally out of their league altogether. No surprise a simple knife throw threw Shoto off.

What if she goes for an attack like this, or high volume ice spikes that will prove near impossible to dodge. Sure, he can block them with his ice I guess, but how come he didn't do it here for instance?

I don't see why he wouldn't.... plus he could just counter with his own offense fairly easy.

That wasn't a direct hit (like you showed, his ice construct took much more damage than him, he was behind) unless that wind is so super ridiculously powerful. I still haven't seen enough of his ice constructs that suggest they are strong enough to even compare to Katara's best attacks so I disagree that he's as durable as Zuko, someone Katara can actually hurt pretty badly with her ice constructs.

Actually, you can visibly see Shoto getting hit as well. Sure the construct is taking more damage, but that just shows how good his durability is.

To give you an idea on Izuku's uncontrolled strength, the shockwave of his punches(with his entire arm) blasted through multiple floors of a building.

https://youtu.be/_aeAVvAFdII?t=9

Obviously Delaware Smash(which is only his finger) isn't as powerful as this, but that should give you a solid idea on how hard Izuku can punch or how hard the shockwaves of his attacks are.

Unless Zuko has something better than that, I'd say they are on the same level, and that's honestly being generous.

Destroying Katara

I still don't see how Katara cannot at least compare with this. Add in that her water packs more force than his eyes and you have a recipe for raw power that's more than enough to fight Todoroki.

That is a good deal smaller. The size difference is clear. Todoroki's attack took up a fair portion of the stadium... Katara's attack isn't remotely the same.

First off, Zaheer was frozen for like a couple of seconds there. When Katara flash froze the Rough Rhinos, their leader noted that he could not feel his arms and that's only after a few seconds.

Did anyone try to ever break out of his ice and fail because of this? What do you mean the temperature difference? I'd like to note again that Katara can manipulate the pressure of water so much that she can make tiny (liquid) water blades cut clean or just break steel.

The amount of time is irrelevant, a flash freeze is a flash freeze. There's a huge difference between freezing enough to be encased in ice(where its possibly for body parts to go numb due to the cold) and actually being frozen from the skin to the bone.

Actually no, nobody has been capable of breaking out of his ice physically to my knowledge,(asides from Noumu who was fighting All Might IIRC) obviously being a hero requires restraint so he wouldn't go around putting people in conditions that would kill them. This is why he immediately defrosted Sero after he won.

Yeah but it was a very tiny flash freeze the size of her foot, so it's not that relevant. Plus, Azula has very strong legs and it was long after Katara froze her.

The amount doesn't matter. If it was on Shouto's level it would have kept her in place due to the fact that trying to rip herself out of it would only do more harm than good.

Yes, it's true, but Katara can still compare as I showed.

Lets assume I agree regarding scale and speed of attack, the difference in draw speed is so big it plays a factor in why Todoroki would win. Katara would have no way of countering or predicting such a fast attack, in fact, she might even be caught off guard because she'd have no way of plowing through the entire thing. Look at how fast Bakugo had to be with his attacks in order to defend himself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4MneKk1_O4

Nobody has a fire rate that good, not even Zuko or Azula. The only person who comes to mind in the Avatar Verse is someone like Kuvira who is among the fastest characters in the series.

Here's the thing. She won't be needing to manipulate all of his attacks, just part of it to defend herself or redirect his offence. For example AoE attacks are good because they have a high chance to hit someone even moving around but when they do hit this someone (who was moving around), he can defend against it like he would with any kind of attack (AoE or not). To give you an idea of what I mean, Katara would only need to aim for specific parts of the attack, like the middle in order to pretect herself sort of like what King Bumi did here with earthbending or even better, what Katara herself did when she was angry:

Cracks the center of the giant iceberg and destroys it. That's also BoS Katara, who was a rookie watrbender with little to no precise control. Furthermore, it's what she did to help the Gaang go through the Serpent's Pass,

See, she manipulates only this little part of the entire ocean to go through without the water touching her. Why can't see do similar stuff here since I showed she can instantly turn his ice into water while redirecting attacks?

Bakugo had to do it with blistering speed in order to protect himself. I highly doubt Katara could replicate the same seeing as the only way to match Todoroki's attacks is through charged moves which would take too much time. Waterbending takes too many movements. So she won't be able to do the same.

Eh? She clearly had to prepare that technique, I highly doubt its something she could do in a combat situation, do you have any other examples of water negation or any examples of powerful enough moves she could use to replicate what Bakugo did? The example you gave of BOS Katara was with a large source of water, and who's to say whether or not Katara directly on water like she did there? She may start attacking with her pouch or gather water from under the bridge as pictured in the OP, but that like I said would take too much time just to do what you described.....

Katara could bitchslap a warship more than 1000 ft. away. I'm sure she has more sheer power behind her attacks.

True, but not only was the move slightly charged, but the ship is on the water, the water which could easily influence its path and movement, combine that with bending and you got at least half of the reason why the ship moved. Regardless, none of her standard attacks have that level of potency, her charged attacks most likely do, but like I said, there isn't a chance in hell she'll be able to pull out the same level of potency she did here as soon as the fight starts to counter Todoroki's Ice Ridge.

However, I think I get what you mean by showing me this instance of Todoroki freezing the robot. Waterbenders have done it before and it's not at all different than what Katara does in numerous situations:

Not on the same level, but close enough, the problem is that she has no showings countering other waterbenders who utilize such a technique, obviously she's capable of dispersing her own bent ice, but we don't know how good she is at negating others.

Clearly, Master Pakku or Hama are not as impressive as Todoroki but I'd argue they are in Katara's league considering Pakku was stated to be one of the strongest waterbending masters in the world, and Hama had very solid scale and was good enough to manipulate water out of thin air. Her experience against these people and the immense defence against hydrokinesis she showed there is very relevant in this fight. I don't think Shouto has even faced any other water/ice manipulator before.

who not only has just as much mobility but can use his powers without even moving, making predicting attacks a lot harder.

  • Does he really have as much mobility?
  • It's not like his attacks are so tricky. He creates giant ice constructs, no too much philosphy behind the attack.

Of course not, but he doesn't need to, that's the thing. Any ranged attacks that come his way he can defend or clash with(mostly overpower considering Deku's Delaware Smashes are more powerful than Katara's standard attacks which were equal with Todoroki's ice constructs.)

Bakugo is definitely more mobile than Katara. He was avoiding attacks from six super powered villains with his explosions and agility. He also is capable of propelling himself far more effectively than Azula with her jet propulsion. (here's the anime version skip to 1:54) I wanna see Azula or Zuko, or any bender do something like this.

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Not even Aang, Ty Lee, Ming-Hua or Zaheer showed off such mobility in a fight.

As for Todoroki? He isn't bad at all. In fact he was keeping up with Bakugo rather well, while also performing some slick moves here and there to stay in the fight.

https://youtu.be/M4MneKk1_O4?t=38

0:38 to 1:41 Shouto could have ended the fight right then and there with how he caught Bakugo mid-charge while catching himself on his ice slide, but his ideologies and beef with his father at the time prevented him from doing so.

They were very big fire blasts. My point is that she can dodge his fire attacks while she can move around while countering his ice attacks (a nice combination).

At almost the same time? Doubtful.

As for Katara making use of the environment, I agree. This location is pretty complex and Katara's battlefieled awareness is great. Here's only a couple of instances when she makes best use of her surroundings in combat:

I think particularly the first one is extremely impressive. There are more instacnes but I think that's enough for now.

She would have to immediately move out of the way, or be fast enough to jump out of the way leading into jumping onto one of the buildings or taking the time to do so. If this was Zuko, Azula or Aang, or any character that has a fair amount of agility, or characters like Toph who could launch themselves almost immediately, you would have a case, but similar to all the other potential counters Katara has to Shouto she has to take the time to do her gestures in order to do so which her opponent will not allow.

The feats you shown are not enough to suggest she would be able to effectively utilize hopping onto the buildings. Plus, his scale and the nature of how his attacks spread make trying to get away practically pointless unless you have the agility to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AgphP2Z_Qo

Making use of the environment would be hard here.

It wasn't thin, it was pretty thick actually considering she could freely move her and Azula's body around sideways in there without any trouble. It wasn't a huge flash freeze because (a) she didn't need one and (b) the water down the sewers was very limited as a source. She never needed to use this against other benders, I mean, no one ever managed to flash freeze her or something.

Then how can you argue she can effectively do this against Todoroki?

and you really think Shouto would sit there while she tries to get out even if she could do this? She had to precisely bend the ice around her for a few seconds, then bend the ice into water.

She simply blew a trail using her nose. The scene took so many seconds because she was chaining Azula up in there. Of course she could turn the ice into water with a gesutre from the beginning like she did, but again, she wouldn't need to bend the entire flash freeze. That said, no, I'm not sure if she can do it fast enough before he attacks her with something else so I'll not focus on this strategy. I already can't see him freezing her in the first place.

Eh, it still took awhile for her to take a deep breath, perform the technique and wrap herself around in it. I'm not sure that's practical at all. But since you agreed, i'll move on.

Only type of speed he's better than Katara at is draw speed with his ice manipulation whereas for now Katara holds a good bit physical speed advantage though I'll wait for your next resopnse.

The only thing matching Todoroki's ice in potency and sheer force was Bakugo's constant explosions and Izuku's Delaware Smashes which both pack more of a punch than what I've seen Katara do consistently. But we'll see.

I'll wait for their feats then.

Posted Izuku's feats in this post, as for Bakugo, A solid feat is during his fight against Uraraka. Using her gravity powers she made use of all the debris that was gathered into the air to drop it on his head, it was several tons of cement, Bakugo made use of one large blast to vaporize all of it, the explosion could be felt from the stands as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgOFMvpSlE4

Also as a good show of durability on Todoroki's part, lets look at Bakugo's most charged move that only managed to KO Todoroki but managed to successfuly smash most of his ice ridge. Plus the explosion was huge...not only would Katara be hardpressed replicating such raw power in order to put him down, but replicating the raw power to tear through his ice as well.

https://youtu.be/8bA1o2kxvjs?t=119

Yeah, draw speed (and travel speed of his ice attacks I guess) is clearly in his favor.

And reaction speed, and reflexes.... Bakugu and Izuku are honestly more impressive than say Azula.(when not looking at comic feats, which even then, aren't enough to say she's better.) His mobility, skills, and the way he uses his powers makes him an opponent I cannot see most Avatar characters dealing with properly. At the very least they are on her level.

https://youtu.be/P91wx-qWCKA?t=71

Since she can manipulate ice in the same ways and she has those great defences + her mobility, she should be able to handle his offence.

I still didn't get any evidence that she'd defend herself in the same fashion as Bakugo did against his much smaller Ice Ridge. And her mobility isn't above what he's dealt with such as Stain and Bakugo.

I'd say her speed, mobility and power are enough to suggest that's not true.

Speed? He stomped Iida. Mobility? He matched a wind user who had enough precision to gather hundreds of balls(meant to stick onto targets) and take out hundreds of targets in an instant.

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Power? The Ice Ridges, speak for themselves, and Todoroki has a trump card of his own. He overpowered Deku's strongest punch(already gave you an idea of what the shockwave alone of his strongest punch can do) with said trump card, and honestly, Nobody outside of a Bloodlusted Aang, or Bumi is matching Deku in terms of destructive force.

https://streamable.com/rhcs2

the subtitles explain it rather well, he takes the already cool air and ice and heats it up to create a powerful explosion. What's to stop him from launching such an attack to take down Katara? Katara has shown no powerful enough defense to pull this off. Quite frankly, not even lightning in Avatar has been this destructive so even her feats of defending against Azula's lightning won't hold water either regarding her defense. And she sure as hell isn't doing what you described with Todoroki's ice ridge. She doesn't have the defensive techniques Aang and Toph do to wall out something with that much force. Hell I'd argue Todoroki could replicate something smaller scale with Katara's own attacks....meaning her own offense can potentially be thrown back at her if the right situation sets it up.

Meh, Katara has a track record against many impressive master benders (some of them more impressive than Todoroki imo) as well as skilled non-bendig fighters. Doesn't say much.

Bakugo alone would cleanup the verse's best fighters. Izuku could take down Aang, and characters like Iida would take down most non-benders IMO. Eraserhead practically solos the verse.

They should work out as much as they do against other benders. Sure, Todoroki has massive scale and draw speed but master waterbenders like Hama and Pakku also have better control over ice than him.

Better control doesn't really mean much. Bakugo had to use a lot of skill and persistence to overtake Todoroki, or at least attempt to. Even saying that those with more power tend to be simple and straightforward.

Additional Counters

I'm sticking with the fact that Katara's skillset is so more diverse and versatile that it's not even funny. I mean, there's a reason she's the most versatile bender in the Avatarverse. She can attack from many different directions such as the ground right below Todoroki's feet and as the fight continues things only get worse for him. Water and ice are going to spread around the battlefield more and more, giving Katara massive opportunities to do what she alwaysdoes and attack from all around the battlefieldusing leftovers. Her water/ice is strong enough and large enough to make sure his attacks won't get to her while I simply can't see him fighting off all these different options Katara has to approach this fight.

Skill and strategy means nothing against Todoroki when he's fairly skilled himself along with having overwhelming power and attack speed. Along with having better reaction speed. Even if Katara has the raw power to counter his biggest moves, she needs charged moves in order to do so. And Katara is mobile, but she won't be able to make use of her mobility in a setting like this since her mobility rides on utilizing a large source of water for waterspouts or slides. Todoroki practically has the same level of mobility as Katara and has a trump card that actually cannot be feasibly countered by Katara.

Shouto wins. Case Closed.

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#47 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: I should probably get back to this lmao. Unless you are no longer interested?

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#48 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#49 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18320 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V if this is still happening.

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#50 Posted by DeathHero61 (18760 posts) - - Show Bio