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#1 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

CaV: Luther Strode vs. YJ Superboy

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V.S.

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Rules:

  • Both fighters are in character/morals on but are serious.
  • Basic knowledge for both.
  • Battle ends in death/KO/permanent incap.
  • BFR is off.
  • Both fighters are in their prime.
  • Standard gear, no shields for Superboy.

Battle Location:

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  • The fight takes place during sunrise when the place is empty
  • Fighters stat 30 feet apart.
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#2 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: I will have an opener up in 4 days or less. If you can have one up before then, you should go first.

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#4 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Btw, does Superboy have his Shields here, which give him his full Kryptonian powers?

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#5 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Nope. I wrote in the OP that he doesn't cause he would stomp Strode with it.

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#6 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: I will start working on my post later today.

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#7 Posted by Chronicplane (9409 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: @major_hellstorm:T4V, This I gotta see. Love to see Superboy from YJ used on vs match ups, Anyway's good luck to the both of you.

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#8 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso:

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Introducing Superboy!

Bio:

Conner Kent (also known as Con-El) is a 6 year old clone of Superman and Lex Luther (yes, he is half Lex genes and is only 6). At the beginning of the series he was left inside a containment pod but was soon freed by the Young Justice which he quickly joined, he then went on daily missions with the team and even became romatically involved with Ms. Martian.

Stats:

I won't go too in depth as my openers tend to just give people an idea of what my character is capable of, but here are the basics.

Strength:

One of Superboy's greatest assets, physically he really is a beast. Just look at the time when he ripped the top half of a tank off, then threw it away like nothing (while shirtless):

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Or the time when he one shotted a huge mech:

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And of course he can leap great distances like the Hulk:

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Speed:

He doesn't have a lot of these cause his opponents aren't too quck most of the time. But he can be fast when needed, like when he jumped in the way of bullets to save Robin (also bullets bounce right off him):

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Durability:

IMO, his best quality. He is basically the punching bag of his team. First thing first, here is Superboy no selling explosive arrows from Artemis:

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Here is Supboy being ran through a trophy case by Despero and taking it like a champ:

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And lastly here is Superboy taking multiple hits from a mind controlled Superman without long term damage and restraining him for a while (also Robin being awesome):

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Super Senses:

Also a quick section since there isn't much to discuss. Superboiy has super senses and infrared vision as seen below when he hears a branch snap when Ms. Martian and KF couldn't and uses infrared vision and seems to be able to zoom in and out with his eyes.

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Conclusion:

As it stands now:

  • Superboy is as strong if not stronger than Strode and definitely has what it takes to knock him sideways.
  • Superboy is fast enough to compete with Strode.
  • Superboy is more way durable than Strode.
  • Superboy has super senses to aid him in battle.
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#9 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

Its Superman's Clonya!

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#10 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

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Bio

Luther Strode was your typical high school dork, complete with the mean bully, the seemingly unattainable girl of his dreams, and an equally dorky best pal. All that changed when a random body building magazine, the Hercules Method, actually worked. In fact it worked a tad bit too well, turning him into an effortless killing machine and sending him on the path of a ruthless vigilante.

The usual superhero stuff follows, culminating into an epic (and obviously extremely bloody, its Luther Strode after all) showdown against history's first ever murderer.

Powers and Abilities

Strode is an user of the Hercules Method, which is basically a handbook on murder. So, obviously Strode is an expert in, well, murder.

As such he has your typical high street level enhanced physical stats, with a few interesting curve balls thrown in. Not much hax. Here is a brief rundown of his abilities:

  • Superhuman strength
  • Superhuman speed
  • Superhuman durability and endurance
  • Healing factor
  • Precognition
  • Move reading
  • Expert H2H combatant

Instead of a mini RT, let's pit Connor's feats in each relevant category against Luther's, and see who comes out on top.

Strength

Ok, I must admit Connor does have very impressive strength feats. I don't think Strode can replicate something like ripping off a tank or one shotting that mecha.

Having said that, Strode isn't any slouch either, especially in striking power and can definitely hurt Connor. Let's see some feats.

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A relatively inexperienced Strode, easily snaps chains, shatters steel beams, and knocks the Librarian (a fellow Method user) to the ground.

Of course this is nothing compared to what happens in the actual fight between Strode and the Librarian shortly.

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Evenly matches the Librarian, completely destroying a warehouse in the process and finally kills him by ripping out his spine.

This is overall a great feat for Strode's strength, speed and skill. How impressive is the Librarian?

As you can see the Librarian is durable enough to no sell getting smashed through walls and taking repeated blows from Strode.

He is also strong enough to punch through the top of a police van and turn the driver's head to paste, and fast enough to casually dodge bullets at point blank range.

After 5 years roughing it out as a vigilante, Strode has gotten exponentially stronger.

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1)Punches through a metal door and turns a guy's head into a splattery mess.

2)Does the same thing, only this time with concrete and against armed and alert professional mercenaries.

3)Follows it up by throwing a guy across a street so hard that he crashes through a wall. Doubles up as a good precog and reflex feat, when he uses a human shield to block sniper rounds from an enhanced human.

These are hardly his best striking feats but even at this early stage Strode can casually punch through thick steel doors, concrete walls, destroy large buildings as a side effect of his fights and manhandle other Method users, who are superhuman themselves.

So far, Connor's best durability feat looks to me to be when Supes punches him through a concrete structure. Though tanking that punch is a good feat, yet Connor was clearly dazed from that blow and was down for a while. And he also seems to be hurt from other, far weaker attacks, like Despero dragging him through that trophy case for example.

Luther, who even by his most average feats, easily punches through thick steel, would definitely tax Connor's durability.

Speed

This is an area where I am confident that Luther holds a considerable edge.

Connor's best feat is intercepting bullets, stuff that even early Strode has done, and much much more.

Races past close quarters automatic gunfire from a large number of trained gunmen, and blitzes 4 of them.

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In Legend, he is fast enough to take on both Binder and Jack the Ripper in a handicap match, and even be winning.

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This is extremely impressive because both Binder and Jack are proficient Method users, who are all casual bullet timers.

His speed is further complemented by his...

Precog and Move Reading

Luther can predict his opponent's moves and is generally quite hard to cheap shot.

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1) Predicts his mom is about to drop a plate.

2) Accurately predicts the Librarian, another Method user's moves.

Luther is already faster than Connor by a decent margin, throw in his move reading, and Connor will be hard pressed to land a hit.

Not that Luther cannot take a beating.

Durability

One of his best durability feats is when he is not KO'd by a warehouse collapsing on him while fighting the Librarian.

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But by far his best asset in this regard is his considerable healing factor and off the charts pain tolerance.

One of the earliest, and best examples of this is in his fight against the Librarian.

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Shrugs off getting disemboweled, instead turning the tables by using his intestines to snap his opponent's neck (yup, its gross). Later, "wills" his intestines to heal themselves back.

Initial thoughts

Connor probably has a strength advantage, nothing more. Strode is far faster, and has precognition + move reading, his healing factor, pain tolerance and immense blunt durability makes him hard to put down, and he has more than enough strength to harm Connor.

I'd also say that Luther is a lot more skilled than Connor. I have shown glimpses of his fighting ability already in his fight against the Librarian and his 1v2 against the Binder and Jack. More in my next post.

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#12 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Cool. Are we doing 3 or 4 posts each (total)?

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#14 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Cool. I will try and get a post up soon.

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#16 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso:

Look at them muscles
Look at them muscles

Counters: Strength

As you said Superboy is stronger but just to hammer home the point a little more I will show you even more feats of Superboy smashing stuff. Remember that mech he one shotted? Well he can also pick those up and throw them away like a bag of garbage:

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And then there's the time when he smashes Blockbuster and Mammoth into each other and a wall, which kept them out for about 5 seconds or more, this is very impressive because both of those guys are just as strong as Superboy if not stronger (you will see some feats for them scattered around later, I will point them out, but for now here is Mammoth matching Conner):

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Just to put the icing on the cake, here is Superboy knocking a large troll thing off its feet in a single blow:

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So yeah, Superboy's strength advantage is bigger than Luther's speed advantage or at the very least just as big.

Counters: Speed/Movement Reading

Yes, Strode is faster than Conner, I do not doubt that. But he is far from untouchable even with his precog.

Early on in the series when Superboy debuted he was already moving at blur speeds, but not only that, he was fast enough to tackle Aqualad before anyone could react (although you do see KF ducking, he isn't fast enough to save Aqualad, and you will see later on that KF is fast enough to make tornados):

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And this is quite a feat as later on, Aqualad is shown to be able to block laser blasts after it has been fired.

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So yeah, Luther will be hard pressed to dodge attacks that fast for long. So all and all, Superboy is only slightly slower and is probably as fast as the Ripper from your scans.

Counters: Durability

One of his best durability feats is when he is not KO'd by a warehouse collapsing on him while fighting the Librarian.

Cool. But the attack seemed to take Strode out as he doesn't appear to be standing at the end (or is the shadow him?). Meanwhile, Superboy has the same thing happen to him but is fine and probably even protected his teammates in the collapse. I won't skip to the part when in happens so you can see Blockbuster's feats, but it happens towards the end,

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And that isn't a one time thing either.

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Above Superboy gets thrown high in the air, landing on a house, then getting smashed by a yacht and the house but he gets back up again later on.

Shrugs off getting disemboweled, instead turning the tables by using his intestines to snap his opponent's neck (yup, its gross). Later, "wills" his intestines to heal themselves back.

And that's the problem. In your last scan Luther says that he commands his body and it obeys. But how can he command or will anything to happen while dazed or unconscious? This won't be a fight where both sides rip each other to pieces, Superboy is a brawler and prefers to knock his enemies out using blunt force and rage. So if he smashes Luther in the head a few times then it is over.

Durabilioty Part 2: How Superboy Wins

This is just me expanding upon durability (countering your strength with it and stuff). You showed how hard Luther can hit, so here is me showing you what Superboy can take. So you've seen him take a hit or two from high tiers, but here is him taking a full on beating from Match (basically Superboy on shields):

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As you can see above, Superboy takes a lot of damage before going down. You also see him briefly going blow for blow with Match. This is very impressive because like I said, Match is basically Superboy in shields (Proof, also SB taking even more damage and getting up). And SB with shields can get really powerful as you can see below where Superboy goes on a rampage.

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Conclusion:

Luther Strode's speed and other abilities will definitely be troublesome and give him an edge, but Superboy's raw power is enough to keep him coming with swing that Strode is not prepared for. And if Conner starts to take too many hits, he can just jump away and catch his breath for a bit.

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#17 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: That has to be one of the fastest rebuttals in any CaV ever lol.

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#18 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Round 2

Luther's Strength

I do feel that though Connor has an edge in lifting strength, striking wise they are closely matched and Luther has more than enough power to seriously harm Connor.

Even early Strode can bring down a warehouse as a side effect of his fights, and Connor has been taken damage from far less. Later in the series, Luther's feats get even better.

In Legacy, he fights a method user who can deform the shape of a road with a single punch.

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But Luther is strong enough to overpower him and smash him through a reinforced wall.

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That should be enough to put Connor down for good.

Luther's Durability

Like Connor, Luther also has immense damage soak. As I have shown, even weaker Method users barely feel getting smashed through concrete walls and stuff.

Cool. But the attack seemed to take Strode out as he doesn't appear to be standing at the end (or is the shadow him?).

No, Luther is not taken out, in the very next page, he sneaks up and rips out the Librarian's spine.

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In Legend, he also no sells an explosion that took out a large part of a mansion,.

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Note that Luther was practically at the center of the explosion here.

He can also no sell getting slammed into roads from incredibly large heights at very high speeds.

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He can also heal cuts, stabs, broken bones, burns etc very quickly.

The Ripper snaps his elbow in Legend.

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But later in the same issue, Luther is perfectly fine.

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So whatever damage Luther does take, none of its going to stay for long. Connor meanwhile will get gradually worn out from accumulation of damage.

Connor's only chance is if he can KO Luther in a few hits, and he is not strong enough for that, as Luther's raw durability is quite impressive as well.

Speed

Yes, Strode is faster than Conner, I do not doubt that. But he is far from untouchable even with his precog.

Weaker Method users can dodge automatic fire at close range, and has precog of their own. And they still get slaughtered by Luther. Connor not only doesn't have the casual bullet timing feats of Method users, but he lacks any precog as well, while Luther can predict every move that he is gonna make, while at the same time having a substantial speed advantage. He is gonna dance circles around Connor.

Early on in the series when Superboy debuted he was already moving at blur speeds, but not only that, he was fast enough to tackle Aqualad before anyone could react

So Connor can bullrush at low level blur speeds, but that won't really be enough. The Ripper is far more agile, skilled and actually seems to create after images while fighting, yet he can't match Luther.

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(although you do see KF ducking, he isn't fast enough to save Aqualad, and you will see later on that KF is fast enough to make tornados):

Creating tornados depends exclusively on your running speed, not reactions.

And this is quite a feat as later on, Aqualad is shown to be able to block laser blasts after it has been fired.

The obvious question here is how fast those lasers are, because reactions wise, Luther can deflect bullets from a superhuman marksman with just his fingers, while not even paying attention:

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Besides, we can't really say for certain that Aqualad did not react to the bullrush, because even if he could, he had no way of stopping it (as I'm assuming Connor is much stronger than Aqualad).

So all and all, Superboy is only slightly slower and is probably as fast as the Ripper from your scans.

Really? Show me Connor consistently fighting at FTE speeds and casually weaving past machine gun fire at point blank range then.

Luther is also a good deal more skilled than Connor. He can fight evenly for a while against Cain, who not only outstats Luther, but has a millenia of murder experience.

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Also doubles up as an insane showing of damage soak and pain tolerance. Has a short fight with Cain after having half his guts spilled out, and still manages to overpower Cain and bash his head in with a stone.

Conclusion

Connor is a bit stronger I admit, but Luther's raw durability, damage soak and pain tolerance is simply off the charts. To say nothing of his healing factor. It would require around building busting punches to even start harming Luther, and then you need to overcome his pain threshold coupled with accelerated healing. While Connor likely has that level of strength, it hardly matters if he struggles to land a hit.

Which brings me to my next point. Luther is considerably faster than anyone Connor has ever fought, throw in his move reading and skill, and Connor will have to work really hard to land solid hits.

Meanwhile, Luther can run circles around him, and wail on him to his heart's desire. Luther has enough striking strength to harm Connor, and Connor doesn't have a healing factor to negate the damage he takes. He eventually gets worn down and defeated.

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#22 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Great. I will get my last counter up on Friday.

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#24 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

Final Round: Strength

There really isn't much to say here as I do not see the new feats presented as more impressive as the last feats I countered.

Even early Strode can bring down a warehouse as a side effect of his fights, and Connor has been taken damage from far less.

Like when? I think I have shown that Superboy can consistently get up after a building falls on him.

In Legacy, he fights a method user who can deform the shape of a road with a single punch.

But Luther is strong enough to overpower him and smash him through a reinforced wall.

That should be enough to put Connor down for good.

Are you forgetting this?

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That is Superboy getting up after getting punched through 2 floors of thick concrete by Superman after already taking 2 punches and getting up not 20 seconds later just fine. And this is before the time skip, Superboy has gotten stronger since this. How will your overpowering of a road deformer put down Superboy? Much less for good.

Final Round: Durability

Like Connor, Luther also has immense damage soak. As I have shown, even weaker Method users barely feel getting smashed through concrete walls and stuff.

Which is again, child's play to Superboy.

No, Luther is not taken out, in the very next page, he sneaks up and rips out the Librarian's spine.

Alright so this is your best feat then. But compared to Superboy's feats of basically no selling a building falling on him or getting thrown a hundred feet in the air before a boat and building fall on him, I think that this isn't that impressive. Especially cause the warehouse is probably made out of wood while the buildings that fell on Superboy was concrete.

In Legend, he also no sells an explosion that took out a large part of a mansion,.

So kinda like this but only partial.

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Connor's only chance is if he can KO Luther in a few hits, and he is not strong enough for that, as Luther's raw durability is quite impressive as well.

Conner can absolutely KO Strode in a couple of hits. I haven't seen many blunt force feats for Strode but the ones I have seen are trumped by Superboy's feat of one shotting mechs. Strode feels the hits of other method users but Superboy is much stronger than any method user I know of.

Final Round: Speed

Weaker Method users can dodge automatic fire at close range, and has precog of their own. And they still get slaughtered by Luther. Connor not only doesn't have the casual bullet timing feats of Method users, but he lacks any precog as well, while Luther can predict every move that he is gonna make, while at the same time having a substantial speed advantage. He is gonna dance circles around Connor.

I would argue that Superboy is a casual bullet timer on Luther's level. I showed this feat before but here is the scans showing Superboy's distance and showing that he blocked the bullets after it was fired.

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As you can see Superboy was on the ground floor while Robin was fighting a gunman on a stairway above, the gunman fires three shots then Superboy intercepts them. There was a page in between the first and second scan that I didn't put in but that didn't include Superboy or Robin so I didn't add it. If that isn't casual then I don't know what is.

So Connor can bullrush at low level blur speeds,

The take away is Superboy can blitz someone as fast as Aqualad.

but that won't really be enough. The Ripper is far more agile, skilled and actually seems to create after images while fighting, yet he can't match Luther.

The Ripper may be more agile but in terms of raw speed, I haven't seen the feats to prove that. Also it looks like the Ripper was blitzing Strode in those scans.

The obvious question here is how fast those lasers are, because reactions wise, Luther can deflect bullets from a superhuman marksman with just his fingers, while not even paying attention:

The lasers should be at least bullet speed. But here is a bullet feat for Aqualad

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Besides, we can't really say for certain that Aqualad did not react to the bullrush, because even if he could, he had no way of stopping it (as I'm assuming Connor is much stronger than Aqualad).

The lasers should at least be as fast as bullets. Aqualad could have at least braced himself.

Really? Show me Connor consistently fighting at FTE speeds and casually weaving past machine gun fire at point blank range then.

I don't know why Conner would bother fighter or dodging at those speeds when he tanks everything. But Superboy does have feats of casually being too fast for Miss Martian to detect.

This is from the very first issue of the Young Justice and as mentioned he disappears on Miss Martian.

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As you can see, thrice Miss Martian does not notice Superboy leave, once in a crowded room even. This is also not a stealth feat as Superboy was untrained at this point and never stealths around in the series, this is just the speed that Superboy casually uses to move around.

Luther is also a good deal more skilled than Connor. He can fight evenly for a while against Cain, who not only outstats Luther, but has a millenia of murder experience.

Maybe if this was Superboy before his training with Black Canary skill would be a game changer, but now Superboy is skilled enough to handle himself in battle (although there was never an occasion where he was able to show his skill).

How The Fight Goes:

Below is one way the fight could go:

At first Strode will hold the advantage, using his skill/precog/speed to dodge and strike Superboy. However as the fight progresses he finds that he is unable to really put down Superboy with individual strikes, so he tries for multiple attacks at a time which Superoboy again tanks, growing more determined Strode closes in for a full on blitz but now that Strode is attacking Superboy full on, Superboy sees his chance to land a shot which he takes, the shot then throws Strode on his butt. Now the tables have turned as before Strode can get up Superboy dashes forward and pummels Strode down (Strode's attacks from earlier have angered Conner at this point) which take Strode out of the fight (because remember Strode can't heal from knockout).

Conclusion:

Superboy will be too hard for Strode to put down, as Superboy will constantly keep coming. I believe I have shown enough feats to prove this but here are 2 more which I think illustrates my point the best.

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As you can see Superboy gets knocked out here, but he neigh instantly gets back up ready to fight but is knocked out again due to electric collars and a KO punch (I believe those gorillas were enhanced with kobra venom).

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Here Superboy gets taken out by a being that knocked back Captain Atom and Superman in one blow. But when Wonder Woman almost gets crushed he gets back and saved here, he then tosses the large alien. Also there are good speed feats in there for Superboy.

So in the end no matter how fast or how strong Strode is, Superboy is really dang hard to put down and when you put him down he gets up and keeps on coming. I also still stand by my claim that Superboy is a good deal stronger and more durable while being fast enough to compete.

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#25 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: I'm done. IMO I don't think I will need a final conclusion cause my conclusions for the past rounds have been the same.

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#26 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Edited by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Final round

Luther's decisive advantages:Speed, Precog and Skill

I have and will maintain that Luther holds a considerable edge in this category. By feats, Luther can run circles around Connor with raw speed alone. Throw in his precognitive abilities and considerable skill into the mix, Connor would legit struggle to even land a finger on the guy. And Luther doesn't use a tanky style like Connor in combat, he actively uses his speed to dodge, blitz his opponents and wear them down.

As you can see Superboy was on the ground floor while Robin was fighting a gunman on a stairway above, the gunman fires three shots then Superboy intercepts them. There was a page in between the first and second scan that I didn't put in but that didn't include Superboy or Robin so I didn't add it. If that isn't casual then I don't know what is.

Its not half bad, but surely there's a huge difference between intercepting hand gun bullets in one direction from a solitary gunman vs weaving between automatic gunfire from all directions by multiple trained mercenaries ?

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Luther has deflected bullets fired by a Method User with nothing but his fingers, while not even paying attention.

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And he has actually done something very similar to Connor, but even more impressive.

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Throws a cinderblock to deflect a bullet fired by an incredibly skilled Method User gunman.

To give an idea of this gunman's ability, he can shoot sniper bullets out of the air (with just a pistol), while not even paying attention.

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The Ripper may be more agile but in terms of raw speed, I haven't seen the feats to prove that.

The Ripper can deflect machine gun bullets at point blank range with nothing but knives.

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That's way better than anything I've seen from Connor.

Also it looks like the Ripper was blitzing Strode in those scans.

Not really, though Luther was a bit caught off guard at first by the Ripper's surprising speed and agility, within a few panels he adjusts to the Ripper's fighting style and smacks him around.

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A little later, he fights both Ripper and Binder (another Method user) at the same time and has the upper hand.

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Connor has never actually fought and kept up against people as fast as Jack the Ripper (who deflects machine gun bullets with knives). His only real feat is intercepting hand gun bullets from some fodder gunman, but Luther has replicated a similar feat against a genuinely superhuman marksman.

And Luther has actually fought and overwhelmed other Method users, many a times in a handicap match, some of whom have much better speed feats than anything Connor has shown.

This is further bolstered by Luther's precog, since he can see every move that Connor is going to make for an entire fight, down to the smallest detail.

I have already shown one such instance against the Librarian, here's another.

Plays out an entire fight in his head while having a conversation with 2 Method Users
Plays out an entire fight in his head while having a conversation with 2 Method Users

As for skill,

Maybe if this was Superboy before his training with Black Canary skill would be a game changer, but now Superboy is skilled enough to handle himself in battle (although there was never an occasion where he was able to show his skill).

Method users inferior to Cain (the originator) like Samson (yes, the one from the Old Testament !) can wipe out entire armies single handedly.

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And as I have shown in my previous post, Luther can evenly match Cain for a while in skill.

Luther is leagues above any other Method user, save Cain himself, for example, we see him easily win in a 3v1 handicap match against some of the best Method Users (these were bodyguards for Cain).

Lastly, Luther and other Method Users have shown some familiarity with nerve based attacks as well.

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1) Puts a tortured man out of his misery with a nerve strike.

2)Cain paralyzes Luther's body with a pressure point attack.

3)Luther is able to break free a few pages later.

He can also analyze people's muscle anatomy for potential openings.

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Hold that thought, because it will be important soon.

Conclusion:

Its obvious: Connor is not touching Luther any time soon, the raw speed difference is considerable, and Luther has his move reading plus superior skill.

Like Connor, Luther is extremely hard to put down as well...

This is a section where I feel these two are the closest. Connor's raw durability feats are a little better, but Luther compensates with his very impressive healing factor, endurance and pain tolerance.

Conner can absolutely KO Strode in a couple of hits. I haven't seen many blunt force feats for Strode but the ones I have seen are trumped by Superboy's feat of one shotting mechs.

One shotting that mech is still not close to consistent building busting power though, which is what you would need to KO Strode in a couple of hits, if you are depending on blunt force alone.

Strode feels the hits of other method users but Superboy is much stronger than any method user I know of.

No blunt attack from other users have done any real lasting damage to Strode. The Binder used nerve toxins, Ripper used knives and even Cain had to rely on pressure points to actually incap Strode for a while.

Honestly its incredibly difficult to harm Luther through blunt force alone. I have already shown him tanking a warehouse collapsing on him, and colliding with a concrete road from a large height at extremely high speeds (the collision dented the shape of the road on a large scale and created shockwaves).

Here's another neat feat:

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1)Tanks a punch that cleaves through dozens of massive trees.

2-3)Punched an enormous distance into the air.

And he kinda doesn't even register attacks of this level. Unless Connor can actually demolish buildings with casual punches, he isn't taking Luther down with just a few hits, especially since Connor solely depends on blunt force.

But how does Luther actually put down Connor?

Connor is very durable and all, but Strode can utilize his knowledge of human anatomy and nerve attacks to circumvent it to some extent.

Here are some tentative ways:

He can target delicate and sensitive spots of Connor's body with eye gouges, finger pokes and the like. He can identify weak points using his muscle vision.

He can use nerve strikes.

I just noticed the battlefield, he can pick up some junkyard tool and bash up Connor.

Another thing worth noting, while Connor can tank a lot of uniform blunt impacts, repeated powerful concussive blows to one particular delicate spot (e.g: repeated blows from a spanner to a specific delicate area of the head) are quite different.

Since Luther is a lot faster and more skilled, he will get ample scope to put this strategy in action.

Also, Connor lacks a healing factor, so whatever damage he takes will keep on getting accumulated, giving Luther a substantial advantage if it comes down to a battle of attrition.

And I don't believe that Connor's average durability is so high that he wouldn't take any damage from Luther's blows, which can casually punch through steel, deform roads, one shot other Method users with similar levels of durability, etc.

Speaking of attrition, Luther's stamina is abnormally high as well.

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He ran 40 miles, stole a newspaper, all under an hour, and doesn't remotely show any signs of physical activity at the end of it all.

One last thing, Luther is a lot more brutal in general than Connor.

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Why Luther wins

  • A lot faster. Adding Move reading and better skill means Connor will find it very hard to land good hits. Conversely, Luther can just wail on Connor to his heart's content.
  • Connor is stronger but Luther's blunt durability is really impressive as well. Unless Connor has at least casual building busting strength, he can't KO Luther in 2-3 hits which is his only chance. Otherwise Luther will take damage from Connor's blows, and just heal back quickly. The speed disparity means Connor can't even overwhelm Luther's healing factor with a barrage of high speed punches.
  • Luther is more skilled, so I don't think Connor can out maneuvre him into a position where he can get a lot of free hits in.
  • Luther's pain tolerance and endurance is exceptional. This is someone who can fight for extended periods with his guts spilling out on the floor. Gives him a substantial edge in a long drawn out scrap (which this will most likely turn into).
  • Luther can use nerve strikes, or target the delicate portions of Connor's body to dole out more damage. Connor's lack of healing factor means whatever damage he does take keeps on getting accumulated and will eventually start wearing him down.
  • Luther is a lot more brutal.

In a nutshell, Luther wins because he has the better powerset for prevailing in a long drawn out physical slugfest which this one is inevitably going to be. Better stamina, pain tolerance, speed (which means he will be taking a lot less hits than Connor), and most importantly a healing factor.

The only thing Connor really has going for him is strength, but since he isn't quite strong enough to put down Luther in 2-3 hits, Luther's healing factor and endurance negates this advantage.

A shout out to my opponent @major_hellstorm for this crisp and entertaining debate. Street level brick battles are always a lot of fun, and this one was no different.

Let's do this again sometime in the future.

Till then, may the best man win :)

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#31 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Shall I open it for votes?

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#33 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: I'm sure if I read your post more closely I would have something to add. But overall it seems that everything that should be said has been.

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#35 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Sure. And anyone else you can think of cause we don't have much voters. Lol.

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#37 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Edited by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18622 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll try to get to this sometime this week,no promises though.

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#40 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#41 Posted by Unlimited1 (1080 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: @shirso Here is my vote:

Speed: Both of you showed some impressive feats but Hellstorm managed to prove Superboy can keep up with Strode, using good bullet timing feats he showed that although Strode has a considerable advantage in this regard, it is not insurmountable.

Strength: Hellstrom took this one easily, Shirso didn't bring any feats better than wall level while Hellstorm showed some impressive feats that placed superboy much higher than that, proving Strode wont be able to take much punishment from superboy.

Durability: Hellstorm showed Superboy has a major advantage, being able to take a beating from beings comparable to superman, tanking bullets and easily recovering after a building collapsed on him, Luther's advantage here was pain tolerance and Hellstorm proved it wont be of much use against Superboy. Shirso had some surprising feats in the end, revealing Luther can use nerve strikes and tank being thrown into multiple trees, but it wasn't enough to close the major disadvantage Luther has in this regard.

Skill: shirso won here by a wide margin, proving Luther is incredibly skilled, He could have gone more in depth into the advantage it gives him, but he managed to show it will help Luther to avoid attacks and further increase his speed advantage.

Conclusion: Both of you did a great job showing the power of your character, but in the end it came down to this question: can Luther continuously avoid Superboy? And the answer I took from the debate is: No. Luther seemed to regularly take a lot of punishment and use his pain tolerance to compensate, this wont be effective against Superboy and despite the speed advantage I came to the conclusion Superboy will be able to tag Luther before he manages to get through Superboy's impressive durability, my vote goes to @major_hellstorm.

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#42 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Edited by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#45 Posted by shirso (4670 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#46 Posted by Streak619 (8044 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: @major_hellstorm:

I feel like Shirso's arguments as to why Luther wins were... well a bit shaky, whereas hellstorm's arguments were clear and undebatable.

Strengthwise it clearly goes to major hellstorm, one can see how much more superior even the initial feats were.

I felt like a lot of the conclusions on the speed part for Luther were a a tad bit presumptuous and even if superior it wasn't enough to give a solid advantage, as compared to the strength advantage superboy was depicted to have by hellstorm.

Durability section was the main reason, IMO, why Superboy won, hellstorm showed plenty of feats, especially in his finisher, that overwhelmed Shirso's argument as to how Luther can take him down.

Skills clearly went to Shirso's, but wasn't enough to conclude your assertion.

My vote goes to Hellstorm. But it was a really entertaining debate!

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#47 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18622 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: @shirso Here is my vote:

Speed: Both of you showed some impressive feats but Hellstorm managed to prove Superboy can keep up with Strode, using good bullet timing feats he showed that although Strode has a considerable advantage in this regard, it is not insurmountable.

Strength: Hellstrom took this one easily, Shirso didn't bring any feats better than wall level while Hellstorm showed some impressive feats that placed superboy much higher than that, proving Strode wont be able to take much punishment from superboy.

Durability: Hellstorm showed Superboy has a major advantage, being able to take a beating from beings comparable to superman, tanking bullets and easily recovering after a building collapsed on him, Luther's advantage here was pain tolerance and Hellstorm proved it wont be of much use against Superboy. Shirso had some surprising feats in the end, revealing Luther can use nerve strikes and tank being thrown into multiple trees, but it wasn't enough to close the major disadvantage Luther has in this regard.

Skill: shirso won here by a wide margin, proving Luther is incredibly skilled, He could have gone more in depth into the advantage it gives him, but he managed to show it will help Luther to avoid attacks and further increase his speed advantage.

Conclusion: Both of you did a great job showing the power of your character, but in the end it came down to this question: can Luther continuously avoid Superboy? And the answer I took from the debate is: No. Luther seemed to regularly take a lot of punishment and use his pain tolerance to compensate, this wont be effective against Superboy and despite the speed advantage I came to the conclusion Superboy will be able to tag Luther before he manages to get through Superboy's impressive durability, my vote goes to @major_hellstorm.

I mostly find myself in agreement with this.

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#48 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18042 posts) - - Show Bio