CaV: Shirso (Doflamingo) vs. KillerQueen (Judar)

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KillerQueen

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Doflamingo ~ The Heavenly Demon

No Caption Provided

Judar ~ The Black Magi of Al-Thamen

No Caption Provided

Match Settings

Doflamingo and Judar will have no knowledge on one another and the fight will be treated as a random encounter. Judar will have all of the power available to him at the end of Magi and Doflamingo will be his standard self. Win conditions include death, knockout, and incapacitation. It'll be set in God Valley.

CaV Rules

Don't debate in the thread, as it's a match between my opponent and I. If you want to be tagged, ask and you will be. Please vote on who did better and not who you want to win. Enjoy the debate

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KillerQueen

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Youk66

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This is judar at his most powerful ?

Right ?

Isn't this too much for op anime characters ?

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#5  Edited By KillerQueen

@shirso: I could, but I've been more busy than usual. Would you mind going first considering you already have an opener to use as a base?

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KillerQueen

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@youk66: I don't think so. I have Judar at island level or a bit higher, so it should be fine.

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KillerQueen

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@shirso: Awesome, thanks. I think this is going to be a good debate.

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Floridaman29

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This looks interesting, TAEP

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deactivated-5e8aa6a2ad9cc

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TAEP

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#14  Edited By shirso

The Heavenly Demon

No Caption Provided

Bio

Donquixote Doflamingo was a former Celestial Dragon and member of the 7 Warlords of the Sea, King of Dressrosa and notorious underworld weapons smuggler, where he operated under the epithet of "Joker". After being defeated by the pirate Monkey D Luffy, he is currently imprisoned in Level 6 of Impel Down.

Doflamingo is a pretty versatile and powerful fighter overall, boasting great physical stats as well as a variety of useful techniques with his strings, and haki just being the icing on the cake. With his willingness to nonchalantly kill and years of battle experience as a notorious pirate in the thick of things in New World, I have no doubt that he is gonna prove to be a formidable challenge for Judar.

The Puppetmaster

Doffy's Devil Fruit , as you are probably aware is the Ito Ito no mi, or the String String fruit. which allows him to produce nigh limitless quantities of extremely sharp, fine and durable strings out of basically nowhere.

Now there's a monstrous amount of versatility that this fruit grants Doffy, and as such there's quite a bit to cover, however I want to start off by showing how tricky and hard to figure out his abilities are:

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Parasite on 1)Jozu 2)Sanji

These two scans show one of Doffy's most ubiquitous abilities in action, the Parasite string. With this, he can attach one or more extremely fine strings to his victim's limbs and control them like a puppet.

What's impressive about these two instances is that both those characters, Diamond Jozu and Sanji, are not only physical monsters in their own right, but also Observation haki (CoO) users. CoO gives the user precognition as well as 360 degree spatial awareness.

A good example of this from Sanji in the same arc is when he detects and blitzes a sniper 8 meters above the ground who was about to shoot him, instantly.

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Sanji's CoO

All in all this shows that not only can Doffy casually immobilize characters with very impressive physical strength using the technique, but it's something that's also going to be very hard to detect and defend against without some prior knowledge, as CoO is a fairly potent sensory ability.

Doffy so casually restraining Diamond Jozu is also an insane feat of physical strength which I will elaborate on later.

The other thing that Doffy very much loves to start with in character is, instant decapitation or at least, chopping off limbs, for instance:

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1)Beheads Crocodile 2)Slices off Oars jr's legs

The second instance also shows that Doffy has fairly good range with his attacks since Oars is pretty large. In terms of more quantifiable showings, Doffy's most basic string attacks are capable of slicing through fairly big, falling meteorites like swiss cheese.

One thing I want to point out here is how casual both these abilities are, and how minimal bodily movement is required on Doffy's part to execute them. These are not telegraphed moves at all, Doffy can perform either with a simple twitch of the finger, which makes them all the more difficult to detect and counter.

Now if you see where I am going with this, both of these moves, if they connect, is basically an insta win for Doffy. Unless Judar has the physical strength to break out of Parasite when Jozu or Sanji couldn't or the piercing durability to tank his strings.

Then when you consider that not only are these strings so fine as to be completely invisible to the naked eye (they are fine enough to attach to even clouds to give an idea) but even people with potent sensory abilities and precog have been caught off guard, and the fact that both of these abilities are Doffy's most ic moves to start a fight, there's a decent chance that the fight is going to end right away with Judar turned into Doffy's puppet or getting his head sliced off.

The next prominent aspect about his strings are their durability. Resisting Jozu's brute physical strength is already very impressive, however by far their best feat in my opinion is when his Birdcage tanked and completely no sold the impact of several hill sized meteorites, with one in particular somewhat comparable to Pica's mountain sized golem.

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Birdcage vs meteorites

On average, considering the KE of meteorites that large, I would say his normal strings can easily no sell multi mountain lvl impacts.

This directly ties into another very useful ability, the Black Knight. This is a clone of Doffy made from his string that can fight independently, being strong enough to even clash with Law or block a punch from Luffy.

The Black Knight's durability scales to the Bird Cage since it's made from the same string.

And as usual, as we saw from the scan with Law, creating a Black Knight is something Doffy can do instantly on a whim, mid combat. Same goes for the Bird Cage itself, where he can cover an island sized area in seconds, without any strain.

The last defensive string construct I want to show for Doffy is the Spider's Web. This technique is durable enough to no sell a Gear 3rd Elephant Gun from Luffy.

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Doffy uses Spider's Web mid blitz to block a G3 attack

The reason this is impressive is because Luffy's G3 in this arc was powerful enough to change the shape of Don Chinjao's drill

Which of course scales to Chinjao splitting the ice continent with his drill.

This feat is a lot more impressive than it looks, since that ice was durable enough to no sell repeated efforts by prime Chinjao (after his drill got blunted by Garp) to break it. And even old, out of prime Chinjao can keep up physically with G2 Luffy.

But apart from this feat, old Chinjao's drill has more stand alone impressive feats from this arc, like assisting in completely shattering Pica's small mountain sized arm through air pressure alone:

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Chinjao and Elizabello shatter Pica's arm

Even leaving Chinjao out altogether, Luffy's G3 scales massively above his Jet Gatling in G2, which was able to destroy a Black Knight, violently ripping apart its strings at various points:

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Luffy's Jet Gatling destroys a Black knight

And durability feats for the Black Knight's strings have already been provided.

All in all, even Doffy's normal strings can easily no sell multi mountain level attacks on average, and his most potent defensive techniques like Spider's Web scale even higher. And he can actively uses these techniques mid combat without strain. I will wait for your post, but I think this is enough to protect Doffy against most of what Judar has to offer offensively.

All this is however, only his normal strings. Awakening, plus Armament haki coating, takes it to a whole different level, but that deserves a different section.

Awakening

This is basically environmental transmutation (including ground and buildings) on a large scale into the user's DF element, in Doffy's case that being strings. It takes Doffy's range and power to a whole different level.

As usual, this is an ability that Doffy can activate instantly, as seen when he makes two thick strands of string pop out of the ground to block G4 Luffy's Culverin mid blitz:

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Doffy's Awakening

This shows both the speed of his Awakening constructs (fast enough to intercept a blitz from G4 Luffy) as well as durability (tough enough to no sell his Double Culverin, all G4 attacks scale massively above his G3).

In terms of range, or how much area he can transmute, it's been stated multiple times that he transmuted the entirety of the town they were fighting in nigh instantly:

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Doffy transmutes the entire town into strings

Both those scans also show his versatility with the ability, he can easily make vast amounts of string spikes with a CoA coating to pierce his enemy and conveniently attack from range. This is best shown when we see that Doffy's proficiency in using Awakening is so high that he could stall someone with flight speed and agility as high as G4 Luffy for a full 20 minutes, and even managed to keep Luffy on the defensive.

And the other dangerous thing about Awakening is that it's not necessarily something that spreads radially outward from Doffy hence can be easily seen and dodged, Doffy can just as easily turn only the ground below his opponent into strings from range:

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1) Doffy turns the ground just below Luffy into a mass of string to capture and crush him.

2) Makes spikes erupt randomly out of the ground below some gladiators who were trying to rush him.

And as you can see from the second scan he doesn't even need to make hand gestures or anything to control his Awakening, and can do it with essentially a thought.

Which means he can easily turn whatever is right below Judar into string to impale him. And since there's no bodily movement involved, this is almost impossible to predict or defend against without precog or at least prior knowledge.

That should give you a decent idea of Awakening's power. It goes without saying that this is by far one of Doffy's most dangerous abilities that to be honest I don't see Judar easily overcoming.

Physical Stats and Haki

In terms of physical strength, Doffy is like >= G2 Luffy, as he has matched Luffy's CoA enhanced kicks and even overpowered Luffy's CoA guard with his own kicks on occasion.

To understand why that's impressive we have to understand how strong Luffy is so there's unfortunately some scaling involved but let's get to it.

Even pre time skip Luffy's G3 punch could shatter the spine of someone as strong and durable as Oars:

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This is quite impressive as Oars casually punched through the reinforced steel wall of a thick freezer made to contain him. Note that he made a hole bigger than his own size, which has already been stated to be 70 meters.

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I would put this as a solid large hill lvl striking feat.

But that's not even his best strength feat, Moria states that Oars was powerful enough to pull entire islands which is how he got the epithet of Continent Puller.This level of strength would naturally translate to his durability as well because his bones and muscles would need to withstand it.

Oars is also durable enough to basically shrug off a brutal beating from Nightmare Luffy who is a lot stronger than him.

So essentially Oars can shrug off barrages of punches from Nightmare Luffy, each of which would be individually much stronger than large hill level based on Oars' freezer wall striking feat. Yet a G3 punch from Luffy completely shatters his spine.

Keeping all that in mind, I think it's fair to say pre skip Luffy's G3 is solidly at mountain level,

Now Oars is not even the most durable opponent that Luffy and co faced pre timeskip. That would be the Pacifistas, who besides basically no selling powerful attacks from every single of the Straw Hats, also didn't take any structural damage from Luffy's G3.

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Pacifista vs Luffy's G3. Note that the Pacifista is only put down because Usopp had made a star explode right inside its stomach moments prior

But after the Straw Hats train over the timeskip and get much stronger, all 3 members of the Monster trio can casually one shot a Pacifista with their most basic attacks:

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Luffy one shots and makes a Pacifista explode with a casual Jet Pistol in G2. Sanji and Zoro break one's neck and cuts it in half respectively with their most casual, basic attacks.

Note that at this point they are able to destroy the Pacifista's body with casual attacks compared to pre time skip, when even a G3 punch only put one down from the accumulated internal damage and didn't make its body explode like in post skip. Same goes for Zoro and Sanji.

Given how powerful pre skip Luffy's G3 was, i think its fair to say that the post skip Monster trio are operating significantly above mountain level with their most basic attacks.

This is also quite consistent as Luffy's basic attacks at this stage are powerful enough to cause significant damage to small mountain sized rock structures by merely punching others into them from large distances:

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Luffy punches Hody into a cliffside

The cliffside there is comparable to that Kraken on its tentacles (whose height has been stated to be 300 meters).

And he scales massive above people like Hajrudin even in base, as Luffy casually one shotted the giant. Hajrudin is strong enough to send 10,000 tons flying upwards at high hypersonic speeds while heavily injured and having most of the bones in his body broken.

I have already shown Doffy being able to match and even overpower Luffy in physical strength. He is also able to casually stop a bloodlusted Diable Jambe kick from Sanji, and then basically no sell a barrage of his DJ kicks.

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Which is a great feat for both his physical strength, blunt force and heat durability as Sanji's kicks at this point should be significantly above mountain level.

As promised, let me come back to Doffy using Parasite on Jozu and emphasize why this is a great strength feat for Doffy as well.

Jozu is strong enough to withstand and stop the force of Mihawk's slash aimed for Whitebeard. Which is very impressive as a clearly holding back Mihawk casually sliced a large mountain sized iceberg in half through air pressure from 100's of meters away:

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This feat is also the more impressive as Aokiji's ice is much tougher than steel and of course it being done casually through air pressure.

I think it's safe to say the slash he aimed at Whitebeard would be much stronger than his output when toying with pre time skip Luffy, and Jozu was strong enough to stop and then disperse it. Easily a high end multi mountain, probably island lvl strength feat for Jozu, considering he tanked a direct attack and not air pressure.

And Doffy manged to control Jozu like his personal puppet.

For standalone feats, even after taking a severe beatdown from G4 Luffy, Doffy collapses a large chunk of Flower Hill (mountain sized structure) by merely freeing himself from the crater Luffy punched him into.

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As should be obvious the piercing potency of his strings would directly scale to his own physical strength as he uses his strings in a whip like motion to slice through opponents. So it's his own physical strength but focused on the very fine surface of his strings.

Where Doffy really starts to shine though, is his monstrous blunt force durability and endurance. He can shrug off insanely powerful hits and it takes a lot to actually put him down.

For starters he is able to no sell a Jet Gatling (same attack that destroyed a Black Knight) with his haki, and even after Law fried his internal organs with Gamma Knife, he laughs off a hit from G2 Luffy and calls it "weak".

He is also tough enough to keep up fighting after taking numerous hits from G4 Luffy, after he had been already messed up by Gamma Knife.

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Doffy tanking G4's attacks

Now G4 Luffy scales massively above everyone of his previous forms of course, but to objectively show how crazy Luffy's strength is in this form, he was able to snap Doffy's strings with a mere flex:

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These being the same strings that effortlessly restrained Jozu, whose strength feats have been shown.

All in all, Doffy should certainly be able to tank anything in the blunt force department from Judar.

Now for speed, one of his most well known feats would be reacting to and slicing apart Fujitora's meteor from close range.

Considering the meteor's size (bigger meteors tend to be faster and this one made a crater this big even after a large chunk got bfr'd back into space), and the fact that even Caesar couldn't perceive either the meteor or the movements of those 3 at close range, I'd rate this as an easy MHS (triple digit mach) feat of combat and reaction speed at least.

He is also capable of moving FTE to base/G2 Luffy in short bursts.

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And even dodge and temporarily outmaneuver a G4 attack at close range.

Which is impressive because Luffy was able to casually evade a massive H2S explosion going off on his clothes just the previous arc. Reacting to an explosion from that range easily puts base Luffy's perception/reaction speed in the microsecond tier, which would translate to Doffy's movement speed being quad machs for being able to go FTE to Luffy's perceptions.

And of course, this level of speed is further backed up by him being casually much faster than characters who blitzed close range lightning timers in much weaker forms. Take his exchange with Sanji for example:

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Here Doffy:

1)Dodges one of Sanji's kicks at point blank range

2)Straight up blitzes him with one of his own attacks

3)Reacts to and blocks Sanji's barrage of kicks

4)Uses Parasite and restrains him mid attack

All of these done casually with the utmost ease, showing his superiority in speed to Sanji. Which is highly impressive as in terms of combat speed, Sanji is fast enough to blitz Kalifa, while chivalry induced and heavily holding back. Kalifa can react to cloud to ground lightning at close range.

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It goes without saying that Enies Lobby Sanji is canon fodder to the Sanji that Doflamingo faced.

That should be enough to at least keep up with Judar in speed. I don't want to be too bold without reading your opener, as I am aware that Magi characters are supposed to be really fast.

However, even if you may argue a raw speed advantage for Judar, it is further compensated for by Observation haki.

CoO is an extremely potent precognitive ability, to the point that it allows you to literally toy with characters who are multiple tiers above you in speed and would lol blitz you otherwise. This is best shown back in Skypiea when the ability is first introduced.

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OP: 254

Enel, in his debut, is able to easily blitz all his priests while playing around.

Yet, Enel, in terms of raw speed, isn't fast enough to dodge Luffy's punches when Luffy found a way to bypass his CoO by randomizing his attacks:

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OP: 281

And Enel fails to react to Luffy's attacks many other times also.

So basically, in terms of raw speed, Luffy > Enel >> his priests. By all rights, Luffy should be able to easily replicate Enel's feat of casually blitzing all his priests at the same time.

But see what happens when Luffy went up against Satori, arguably the weakest of the priests:

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OP : 246 and 247

Satori is able to easily dodge both Luffy and Sanji's (who at this early stage shouldn't be much slower than Luffy) physical attacks at close range, tag them back and just keeps on completely embarrassing them.

The reason is of course, due to Observation haki, which is a massive boost to speed in general from how it has been established from day 1.

So even if you argue Judar has a raw speed advantage, CoO is more than enough to compensate and then some.

On the topic of CoO, as is common knowledge, it gives you a brief foresight of the future, as seen the very first time a novice PTS Luffy used it subconsciously.

This is a huge advantage, especially in a random encounter, for obvious reasons. Doffy will always stay one step ahead, knowing Judar's next move before the latter has even thought of it.

The other benefits of CoO are the 360 degree spatial awareness that it provides, along with allowing the user to gauge his opponent's power level, as shown by Rayleigh when he sensed that 500 beasts were stronger than Luffy on the island they were training on:

No Caption Provided

Doffy himself has immense sensory range with his CoO as shown during the flashback when he precisely attacked and then casually controlled with Parasite what should be hundreds of soldiers all across Dressrosa (which is a proper island) from the Royal Palace, and made them slaughter innocent civilians.

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With this aspect of CoO in play, it should be impossible for Judar to land any surprise attacks on or blindside Doffy. Also Doffy would know how powerful Judar is from the outset and wouldn't play around.

Initial Thoughts

From what I know of Magi and Judar, Doflamingo should have the solid physical strength and durability, as well as endurance advantage.

As for his strings, they have quite high piercing potency and should one shot Judar if they land. Moves like Parasite that are nigh undetectable are also an instant one shot. Awakening gives him a lot of range and can also act as defensive barriers to protect him from whatever Judar might throw at him.

Add the precognitive abilities of haki that should compensate for any speed gap plus the vast 360 degree spatial and sensory awareness, and I think Doffy should take the majority here.

Over to you :)

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shirso

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#15  Edited By shirso
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KillerQueen

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@shirso: Nice job! I'll try and have mine up ASAP.

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Edgelord91

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maestromage

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TAEP

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Hmmm interesting T4V

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#21  Edited By KillerQueen

Judar ~ The Black Magi of Al-Thamen

No Caption Provided

Labyrinth of Magic

Magoi is the Chakra or Reiatsu equivalent and Judar has an infinite amount of the stuff. It doesn't mean that he has unlimited stamina or that he can cast spells forever, but the difference between what he does with ease and the best accomplishments of an average magician are staggering. In addition to that and the raw magical talent that he was born with, he also has access to all of the knowledge of an entire magic civilization at his finger tips. It makes him one of the most versatile mages in the world, allowing him to do whatever he could think of within reason considering the sheer volume of spells in his arsenal. In battle, though, he tends to lean towards a few branches of magic that I'll be covering in-depth below:

  • Black Rukh

Rukh is the tangible form of fate itself. It can be accessed by a Magi for use in combat or various other situations, being able to augment their present power to a ridiculous degree. Judar had been corrupted and therefore has Black Rukh instead of the standard white, something that lets him shoot off ridiculous blasts strong enough to overpower the Djinn Belial. Hakuryuu (using the power he stole from Belial) was able to clash with Full Djinn Equip Alibaba:

No Caption Provided

I find this to be impressive considering even his mere Weapon Equip was strong enough to stop Muu Alexius and his multi-mountain level Extreme Magic. If logic follows, then all of his actual attacks using Full Djinn Equip would dwarf whatever he would be capable of without it. Judar overpowered the being that Hakuryuu derived his strength from, meaning that all of that should scale to him as well. It's worth mentioning that he can bolster his physical attacks with that same Black Rukh instead of using the blasts, but I don't see a reason for doing that in a fight against someone like Doflamingo.

  • Lightning Magic

Judar specializes in the use of lightning magic, with his signature technique being the Black Lightning Spears. It allows him to do right about what most would expect, that being to conjure up a whole lot of absolutely humongous lightning bolts to bombard his opponent with:

No Caption Provided

Impressive as the bolts might be in terms of size and sheer power (being more potent than attacks with concentrated Black Rukh), their heat is also a factor. In the instance posted above, the bolts vaporized a ton of water and it took several pages for the waves to level it back out. If we use the actual temperature of lightning (53,540° F) in relation to the bolts, it becomes even more dangerous.

Judar has other lightning spells as well, such as the one that he used to create a hole in the barrier around Sindria equal in size to multiple mountains. It'd be a lot weaker than his Black Lightning Spears considering how far back this was in the series as well.

  • Spatial Transference Magic

Judar can use this to teleport himself or others over long distances. Koumei Ren made a direct comparison to Dantalion (a Djinn that can transfer entire mountains), something that further emphasizes how strong Judar had become. I don't have much to talk about here if I'm being honest, but having magic like this could help Judar escape from dangerous situations that might arise during the fight. If that comes up, I'll cover it in more detail later down the line.

  • Ice Magic

Judar can steal the moisture from the air and freeze it, making these huge blasts of cold that are powerful enough to cancel out and overwhelm Aladdin's Blazing Palms. If references are needed for that, the same move was able to stretch from Magnostadt to the shoreline (a distance covered with mountains, as seen here and here). If we consider the size of Aladdin's sand golems, it'd be a multi-mountain busting feat bare minimum. Judar has more up his sleeve, though, and can concentrate the cold into ice shards that continue to freeze whatever he hits and that can freeze his opponents down to their core:

No Caption Provided

I know that Doflamingo has faced off against Aokiji in the past, but he was never frozen this thoroughly and most certainly never countered cold of this magnitude, meaning that being hit by one of these could end his career. I'd also like to point out that he can freeze multiple city blocks in an instant, so escape isn't likely at all. In addition to the ice shards, he can also form a trio of dragons that follow his opponents independent of his will. It stands to reason that these dragons would share the same freezing properties of his other ice spells, meaning that being hit by them is just as devastating if not more when compared to the ice shards or the cold blasts.

  • Barrier Magic

All magicians can conjure what's called a Borg using barrier magic. It acts as a shield against physical assaults, but can also defend the user from mind manipulation among other things. It's instinctive, so the user doesn't necessarily need to be aware that they're being attacked for their Borg to block the damage. Judar has a powerful Borg at his disposal, one that can no-sell his own attacks with no apparent issues. In addition to that, not even hits from Sinbad (who matched Alibaba) can crack it:

No Caption Provided

Casually tanking hits from someone in the same general tier as Full Djinn Equip Alibaba as well as no-selling his own attacks gives Judar a level of defense that Doflamingo will have a hard time circumventing, not to mention its reflexive nature and the fact that Judar could simply resummon it if an attack managed to get through. With all that I've presented so far and the scaling that goes along with it, I think it's fair to say that it'd take some of Doflamingo's stronger attacks to do much of anything to Judar's Borg.

Corrections & Counters

I'll be using this section to counter a lot of the statements made by my opponent in his opener. I'll try my best to be as concise and accurate as possible, so let's dive right into that:

With this, he can attach one or more extremely fine strings to his victim's limbs and control them like a puppet

I feel like going against a Magi isn't ideal for a lot of Doflamingo's abilities, with this one being the prime example. Judar always has his Borg up (as he's aware of his own relative squishiness), so nabbing him with Parasite String is going to be virtually impossible.

What's impressive about these two instances is that both those characters, Diamond Jozu and Sanji, are not only physical monsters in their own right, but also Observation haki (CoO) users

All of this is invalidated by the constant presence of Judar's Borg as well as its reflexive nature, which sucks because this is a big part of your post (solidifying the strength of Jozu and the potency of Kenbunshoku Haki). It wouldn't work on Judar in a million years, however.

The other thing that Doffy very much loves to start with in character is, instant decapitation or at least, chopping off limbs

Again, Borg. I feel like so much of what Doflamingo can do doesn't work on Judar.

One thing I want to point out here is how casual both these abilities are, and how minimal bodily movement is required on Doffy's part to execute them. These are not telegraphed moves at all, Doffy can perform either with a simple twitch of the finger, which makes them all the more difficult to detect and counter

Doflamingo would need far more than a twitch of his finger to even scratch Judar's Borg, so the undetectability of his strings and the element of surprise doesn't have any relevance here.

there's a decent chance that the fight is going to end right away with Judar turned into Doffy's puppet or getting his head sliced off

Actually, the chances of that happening are non-existent.

The next prominent aspect about his strings are their durability. Resisting Jozu's brute physical strength is already very impressive, however by far their best feat in my opinion is when his Birdcage tanked and completely no sold the impact of several hill sized meteorites, with one in particular somewhat comparable to Pica's mountain sized golem

How's their durability against heat or cold? I know that meteorites are hot due to entering the atmosphere and whatnot, but are they as hot as lightning? In regards to the cold, that's his first attempt in almost all of his fights considering ice magic is his specialty. If Doflamingo's strings don't have resistance feats for these two things, then I can see him having a particularly hard time fighting Judar when his main form of offense is constantly being destroyed.

On average, considering the KE of meteorites that large, I would say his normal strings can easily no sell multi mountain lvl impacts

I'd like to see some evidence for the kinetic energy of these meteorites. I'm not doubting it, but allowing people to make unsupported claims isn't a good debating practice.

This is a clone of Doffy made from his string that can fight independently, being strong enough to even clash with Law or block a punch from Luffy

While that's cool and all, it's almost immediately taken care of by Judar's own automatic attacks (namely his ice dragons). If he sent two or three multi-mountain busting ice dragons that can freeze as thoroughly as they can, then his string clone would be decimated in an instant.

And as usual, as we saw from the scan with Law, creating a Black Knight is something Doffy can do instantly on a whim, mid combat. Same goes for the Bird Cage itself, where he can cover an island sized area in seconds, without any strain

I don't see this coming into play in the fight, but Judar could quite literally just teleport out.

The Black Knight's durability scales to the Bird Cage since it's made from the same string

I don't know if I buy this line of thinking. I'm aware that the Black Knights are indeed made from the same string as the Bird Cage, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense when we look at how much trouble other characters like Zoro had with merely pushing it back. If Luffy could destroy one of these things (which should be more condensed and thefore more durable than the sections of the Bird Cage that Zoro was hitting), then that would make him stronger than Zoro to a degree that isn't supported by the narrative of the story of the portrayal of the characters.

The reason this is impressive is because Luffy's G3 in this arc was powerful enough to change the shape of Don Chinjao's drill

Which of course scales to Chinjao splitting the ice continent with his drill

It's not an "of course" moment, that's for sure. Chinjao was old and weaker than he'd been before to a degree that we aren't aware of. If we want to use the already sketchy feat of splitting the continent, it still wouldn't be applicable to Luffy in any meaningful way.

But apart from this feat, old Chinjao's drill has more stand alone impressive feats from this arc, like assisting in completely shattering Pica's small mountain sized arm through air pressure alone

I don't agree with Pica's arm being the size of a small mountain for one, as he himself is about as large as Flower Hill (which isn't the size of a mountain either). Another thing would be that he didn't do that by himself and it's impossible to determine who did more work between Chinjao and Elizabello. It almost invalidates the feat altogether, not that it would've helped against Judar as it stands now.

I will wait for your post, but I think this is enough to protect Doffy against most of what Judar has to offer offensively

Including the ice and the lightning? I find that hard to believe. I've provided feats for their sheer power as well as the extra attributes that Doflamingo has had less than success with before, so I feel that he'll be at quite the disadvantage here.

In terms of range, or how much area he can transmute, it's been stated multiple times that he transmuted the entirety of the town they were fighting in nigh instantly

He didn't, though, as the town was still there. If he turned the entire town into strings, then he wouldn't have hit the ground when Luffy overpowered him via King Kong Gun. I know that his range is huge, but that's blatantly untrue. Judar has large range as well, being able to (as I've already shown) freeze multiple city blocks instantly and summon lightning on an island wide scale.

Both those scans also show his versatility with the ability, he can easily make vast amounts of string spikes with a CoA coating to pierce his enemy and conveniently attack from range

Judar is a magician and fights with other magicians all the time, so he's used to fighting at a range against opponents that can do the same. It might be "convenient" for Doflamingo in a situation like this, but it's a normal fight for Judar.

And the other dangerous thing about Awakening is that it's not necessarily something that spreads radially outward from Doffy hence can be easily seen and dodged, Doffy can just as easily turn only the ground below his opponent into strings from range

Another aspect of his offensive game that's completely shattered by Judar's Borg.

Which means he can easily turn whatever is right below Judar into string to impale him. And since there's no bodily movement involved, this is almost impossible to predict or defend against without precog or at least prior knowledge

Judar doesn't need to predict or even dodge it to be honest. In addition to that, he usually flies rather high in the air and would probably notice the spike coming for him considering that fact. It'd be as simple as drifting to the side, as he has free form flight whereas Doflamingo does not (something that could be trouble if he decided to engage Judar up close).

But that's not even his best strength feat, Moria states that Oars was powerful enough to pull entire islands which is how he got the epithet of Continent Puller.This level of strength would naturally translate to his durability as well because his bones and muscles would need to withstand it

I think we both know that it's not that simple. If he pulled continents, then the force would be spread out over his entire body and over a long period of time, which is significantly less impressive than tanking a punch with that much force behind it. It'd take the exact size of said continents and whole lot of further calculations to even get the force that was exerted on him, so Luffy snapping his spine (while undoubtedly impressive for the time) simply doesn't match up here.

Keeping all that in mind, I think it's fair to say pre skip Luffy's G3 is solidly at mountain level

If we ignore my above point, then I'd agree.

The cliffside there is comparable to that Kraken on its tentacles (whose height has been stated to be 300 meters)

In that same instance that you posted, we can see that Surume isn't 300 meters tall. It doesn't match up with the height of anything we can use as a reference in that scene.

Which is a great feat for both his physical strength, blunt force and heat durability as Sanji's kicks at this point should be significantly above mountain level

Ignoring that last part, I think he'll need better heat resistance feats than that if he wants to survive against Judar's Black Lightning Spears. If those don't work (which isn't a likely scenario), he can always fall back on his ice magic.

I think it's safe to say the slash he aimed at Whitebeard would be much stronger than his output when toying with pre time skip Luffy, and Jozu was strong enough to stop and then disperse it. Easily a high end multi mountain, probably island lvl strength feat for Jozu, considering he tanked a direct attack and not air pressure

Yeah, this is what I was talking about.

For standalone feats, even after taking a severe beatdown from G4 Luffy, Doffy collapses a large chunk of Flower Hill (mountain sized structure) by merely freeing himself from the crater Luffy punched him into

I'm going to need some citations for the size of Flower Hill of this is the path we're taking.

As should be obvious the piercing potency of his strings would directly scale to his own physical strength as he uses his strings in a whip like motion to slice through opponents. So it's his own physical strength but focused on the very fine surface of his strings

It might not be as fine as Doflamingo's strings, but Judar's Borg has no-sold attacks from Sinbad's sword, so he should be alright considering how powerful said attacks are in comparison to what his opponent here is putting out.

Where Doffy really starts to shine though, is his monstrous blunt force durability and endurance

Judar has not a single blunt force attack to his name, so that's moot.

Considering the meteor's size (bigger meteors tend to be faster and this one made a crater this big even after a large chunk got bfr'd back into space), and the fact that even Caesar couldn't perceive either the meteor or the movements of those 3 at close range, I'd rate this as an easy MHS (triple digit mach) feat of combat and reaction speed at least

Quad Mach is the minimum for fighting even slow Magi characters, so this isn't relevant.

Which is impressive because Luffy was able to casually evade a massive H2S explosion going off on his clothes just the previous arc. Reacting to an explosion from that range easily puts base Luffy's perception/reaction speed in the microsecond tier, which would translate to Doffy's movement speed being quad machs for being able to go FTE to Luffy's perceptions

I'd like an exact number if it won't be too much trouble. Judar scales to Hakuryuu (and therefore Alibaba) in speed based on the fact that he can keep up with him no problem and did so on numerous occasions during the final arc:

No Caption Provided

Both he and Hakuryuu more or less blitzed Full Djinn Equip Sinbad here, someone who was fast enough to fight a lightning timer in base with no issues. I call him a lightning timer because Sinbad brought down a lightning bolt straight from the clouds and Darius summoned his shield fast enough to block it. I don't need that feat, though, as Judar scaling to Hakuryuu allows me to use a feat accomplished by Alibaba that blows anything resembling lightning timing out of the water. In the final arc, he managed to defend against dozens of black drills from the Sacred Palace at the same time:

No Caption Provided

It's important to note that these things could cross continents in a single panel. If references are need for that, crossing the entire United States in 5 seconds (which is more than a fair estimate considering it happened in one panel) would be upwards of Mach 3,000. Judar should have a decent speed advantage here if we take into account some of the more fair calculations for Alibaba's feat.

That should be enough to at least keep up with Judar in speed. I don't want to be too bold without reading your opener, as I am aware that Magi characters are supposed to be really fast

Magi characters are really fast. It's almost a case of them being too fast for the tier they're in (ala Black Clover but scaled down a whole lot in comparison).

CoO is an extremely potent precognitive ability, to the point that it allows you to literally toy with characters who are multiple tiers above you in speed and would lol blitz you otherwise

I don't want to be presumptuous, but Judar just might be fast enough to "lol blitz" Doflamingo. Having Kenbunshoku Haki is a needed facet of his arsenal here.

Doffy will always stay one step ahead, knowing Judar's next move before the latter has even thought of it

Doflamingo hasn't shown feats that would justify him knowing what Judar was going to do before he did, which probably wouldn't help him even if he could considering that knowing what your opponent is going to do doesn't necessarily allow you to stop it.

Also Doffy would know how powerful Judar is from the outset and wouldn't play around

Judar has no physical power whatsoever. I don't think that Kenbunshoku Haki would allow him to sense magical prowess, so at best all he would feel is a relatively fit normal dude.

Judgements & Advantages

Judar has a huge advantage in the form of his Borg as well as with the sheer volume of attacks that he can use. He can send out his tracking ice dragons to keep Doflamingo busy and eliminate the use of his Black Knights while he spams Black Lightning Spears or large-scale freezing attacks that his opponent can't defend against. In addition to all of that, he should have a decent speed advantage and isn't afraid to go for the kill right off the bat.

All things considered, I feel like he should take this match 9/10 times or more. I will of course wish my opponent luck on his next post, but I'd also like to thank him and everyone reading for doing just that - reading. It means a lot to know that like-minded people are enjoying the debates I participate in!

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@shirso: Thanks! It's my first time representing a Magi character or debating in-depth for them at all, but I think it turned out alright all things considered.

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#27  Edited By shirso

@killerqueen:

Dealing with Judar I: Power and Durability

Here I will address Judar's various means of offense and how Doffy can deal with them.

Let's talk about Judar's potency scaling first:

Judar had been corrupted and therefore has Black Rukh instead of the standard white, something that lets him shoot off ridiculous blasts strong enough to overpower the Djinn Belial. Hakuryuu (using the power he stole from Belial) was able to clash with Full Djinn Equip Alibaba:

I don't think this logic works because the specialty of the Belial Djin is not its raw power but its mind and soul hax. As Hakuryuu himself said, Belial's scythe is too weak to physically hurt humans and would only sever their senses. Alibaba also confirms it hurts less than Zagan. Iirc even Ugo said to Aladdin that the sensory deprivation is the only thing Belial can do.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
1) Hakuryuu and 2) Alibaba's statements

Also Hakuryuu didn't clash with Full Djin Equip Alibaba with just Belial, he used Zagan also which is stronger than Belial, as we are shown in just the previous page. Hakuryuu can use 2 Djin Equips at once:

This is the page right before the one you posted where they clash
This is the page right before the one you posted where they clash

I find this to be impressive considering even his mere Weapon Equip was strong enough to stop Muu Alexius and his multi-mountain level Extreme Magic.

I don't find this feat to be more impressive than Mihawk's iceberg slice due to 1)it was performed with air pressure from a large distance and 2)the ice being a lot more durable than steel. Doffy casually overpowered and restrained Jozu, a character that stopped a more powerful, direct attack from Mihawk . So even if Judar does somehow scale to this feat (he doesn't), it won't put his offensive output anywhere near Doffy.

Lightning magic

Judar specializes in the use of lightning magic, with his signature technique being the Black Lightning Spears. It allows him to do right about what most would expect, that being to conjure up a whole lot of absolutely humongous lightning bolts to bombard his opponent with:

Impressive as the bolts might be in terms of size and sheer power (being more potent than attacks with concentrated Black Rukh), their heat is also a factor. In the instance posted above, the bolts vaporized a ton of water and it took several pages for the waves to level it back out. If we use the actual temperature of lightning (53,540° F) in relation to the bolts, it becomes even more dangerous.

In all honesty, given Mingo's speed and precog, I don't see lightning magic being relevant here at all. Doffy is casually faster than characters who blitzed lightning timers while heavily holding back in hilariously weaker forms. As shown in my opener with Enies Lobby Sanji blitzing Kalifa, a close range lightning timer, and then how Doffy toyed with post skip Sanji.

To elaborate further, even non Observation haki users like Brook can react to natural lightning at very close range (like a few meters away). Shown when Brook casually intercepted Zeus' lightning to save Nami:

No Caption Provided

Which is impressive as even pre timeskip Zoro beat Ryuma, someone who always beat Brook while not serious at all.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Zoro beats Ryuma and gets Shusui. Brook remarks that Ryuma never fought him seriously

It's logical to say the gap would have only widened post skip as Zoro underwent rigorous training with Mihawk, the World's Greatest Swordsman, while Brook just kinda chilled as a rock star. And Sanji has always been comparable to Zoro.

So basically Doffy is faster than Zoro/Sanji tier characters who are themselves far faster than close range lightning timers like Brook. Lightning speed is quite literally, fodder to OP characters on Doffy's tier.

Also note my emphasis on close range. All the lightning timing feats I have shown were performed against lightning from like a few meters away, while Judar's bolts would be coming from the clouds, (thunder clouds on average are at a height of several km), thus giving waaaay more time to react.

Add Observation haki on top and I don't see Judar's lightning ever tagging Doffy at all.

But regardless, Doffy's strings actually do have some decent heat durability. His generic, single string strands without even any Armament haki coating (which massively boosts durability in all aspects), was able to no sell the heat of Fujitora's Green Bit meteor. The fragments of which instantly vaporized a pretty large chunk of ground:

No Caption Provided

And the crater is also extremely deep, as we can't even see the bottom:

No Caption Provided

I think in terms of heat energy this showing is much better than vaporizing a lot of water like Judar did, as we can both agree vaporizing solid ground >>>>> vaporizing water.

This is also impressive heat durability for Doffy himself, as he was right in the center of the explosion and inferno made by the meteor's impact.

To add on to heat durability for Doffy himself, as shown, he is pretty much able to no sell a barrage of Diable Jambe kicks from Sanji. Which is impressive as post skip Sanji's DJ focuses an absurd amount of flames, enough to instantly cover and grill a small mountain sized opponent. His DJ is also hot enough to light 1000's of meters under water, so pretty potent as well. And it was hot enough to burn opponents all the way to their bones on its very first usage. So overall no selling a barrage of these kicks is a pretty impressive heat durability showing for Doffy.

But his best feat in this regard would likely be when he took Luffy's Red Hawk to the gut, off guard and unprotected:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Red Hawk can be ignited 10,000 meters underwater which shows its potency. But what's even more impressive is that Luffy sent these flames right through Doflamingo's body and he still tanked them and stood back up to fight G4 Luffy one on one, in addition to Law's Gamma Knife shredding his organs.

So all in all, I feel Doffy should have what it takes to tank a few direct lightning bolts from Judar if it comes to that. But honestly I think he should be able to easily block Judar's lightning with his Awakening strands further reinforced with Armament haki or just flat out outspeed them.

Ice Magic

Judar can steal the moisture from the air and freeze it, making these huge blasts of cold that are powerful enough to cancel out and overwhelm Aladdin's Blazing Palms. If references are needed for that, the same move was able to stretch from Magnostadt to the shoreline (a distance covered with mountains, as seen here and here). If we consider the size of Aladdin's sand golems, it'd be a multi-mountain busting feat bare minimum.

I don't see why Aladdin's Blazing Palms would be a multi mountain busting attack. All you have shown is its size and range, not any feat of its potency or what it can actually destroy, so AoE =/= AP.

You are kind of implying that Aladdin's attack would just blow through a row of mountains from where he was all the way to the shore, something that's unfounded unless you show potency feats for this attack.

Also Aladdin's golems are definitely not anywhere near mountain sized if that's what you were implying, as we can very clearly gauge their size compared to Aladdin himself:

That's certainly nowhere close to mountain sized
That's certainly nowhere close to mountain sized

Judar has more up his sleeve, though, and can concentrate the cold into ice shards that continue to freeze whatever he hits and that can freeze his opponents down to their core:

Cool, but how fast are these shards (I know you provided speed feats for Judar himself but the speed at which his attacks move would be different)? Why can't Doffy just dodge them with his speed and precog, or block them with his strings?

I know that Doflamingo has faced off against Aokiji in the past, but he was never frozen this thoroughly and most certainly never countered cold of this magnitude, meaning that being hit by one of these could end his career.

In terms of cold resistance, Doffy casually strolling into Aokiji's side of Punk Hazard is itself quite an impressive showing.

Aokiji's side of PH is cold enough to make the Straw Hats feel it and put on winter clothing, when early pre skip Luffy has already went up a sheer cliff carrying a few others in the middle of a raging blizzard, while wearing only a vest and pants. This is all the more impressive since it's in constant contact with Akainu's side of PH, which is hot enough to have active volcanoes and keep the ocean boiling for more than 2 years straight, and seemingly for an even longer duration, yet Kuzan's ice is nowhere close to melting. It also shows his ice can evenly match and cancel out Akainu's magma on an elemental basis.

And this is all Kuzan's leftover ice from a fight 2 years back.

So Doffy can already ignore significantly sub zero temperatures, same for his strings, as he used them without any problems to slice Smoker up in Punk Hazard's extremely cold environment.

But it gets better of course as he is able to pretty much no sell and instantly break out of Kuzan actually using an attack to flash freeze him. This was also tanked by Doffy's bare body without any CoA for protection:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

.Kuzan while being casual asf and toying with the pre skip Straw Hats was able to freeze the pre skip Monster trio to their core and pretty much one shot them. And as shown with Luffy's feat on Drum Island, the pre skip M3 already have some very decent freezing resistance.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

So freezing to the core is nothing Doffy can't easily deal with, and Kuzan definitely has better freezing potency feats than Judar based on what's been shown so far. This is if Doffy somehow gets tagged by the ice shards or doesn't use his strings to block them, which I find unlikely.

I'd also like to point out that he can freeze multiple city blocks in an instant, so escape isn't likely at all.

I think flight keeps him safe from the AoE. He just has to avoid getting hit by that large ice chunk and he would be fine.

In addition to the ice shards, he can also form a trio of dragons that follow his opponents independent of his will. It stands to reason that these dragons would share the same freezing properties of his other ice spells, meaning that being hit by them is just as devastating if not more when compared to the ice shards or the cold blasts.

My reply to this would be the same as before. You haven't shown the speed of these ice dragons themselves so either Doffy just out speeds them or he has the freezing resistance to tank them or block them with CoA coated string constructs if required.

Dealing with Judar II: Getting past his defenses

Here I will discuss how Doffy can get past Judar's defenses and deal decisive damage to him.

For the record, you didn't show any durability feats for Judar himself, so I will be operating under the assumption that Doffy can one shot him with anything, provided he can get past the Borg of course.

All magicians can conjure what's called a Borg using barrier magic. It acts as a shield against physical assaults, but can also defend the user from mind manipulation among other things. It's instinctive, so the user doesn't necessarily need to be aware that they're being attacked for their Borg to block the damage.

I don't think this example proves that Magi do not need to be aware for their Borg to defend them from attacks, as Morgiana warns Aladdin of the attack in the previous page:

This is the page right before the one you posted in the second link
This is the page right before the one you posted in the second link

As already shown, Doffy's attacks have totally blindsided even people like Sanji who have precognition and potent sensory and spatial awareness. So I would need a better example than this that proves Borgs are activated passively without the user even being aware that they are being attacked.

Judar has a powerful Borg at his disposal, one that can no-sell his own attacks with no apparent issues. In addition to that, not even hits from Sinbad (who matched Alibaba) can crack it:

To me it seems Sinbad is mostly clashing blades with Judar there rather than hitting his Borg.

Casually tanking hits from someone in the same general tier as Full Djinn Equip Alibaba as well as no-selling his own attacks gives Judar a level of defense that Doflamingo will have a hard time circumventing,

I don't think no selling his own attacks gives Judar's Borg the defenses required, for issues with the Belial scaling stated in he previous section. As for taking hits from Sinbad, I put Mihawk's iceberg feat (which Doffy scales above substantially) above Muu's feat, so I don't think it's enough .

But more importantly, Doffy has a massive potency advantage here, as compared to Sinbad's blade, his strings are much finer and sharper, as they can attach to water vapor molecules, hence Doffy's piercing power is going to be focused on a waaaay smaller area compared to Sinbad. And he can also add Armament haki to the strings to further boost his offense

So even if you think Doffy and Sinbad are on the same general tier of physicals, or say even if Doffy is a bit weaker, he should have no issues ripping through Judar's borg due to the potency advantage, even with his most basic attacks.

not to mention its reflexive nature and the fact that Judar could simply resummon it if an attack managed to get through.

As discussed you need to provide more to prove that the Borg would manifest on its own to protect him from attacks he has no idea are coming.

With all that I've presented so far and the scaling that goes along with it, I think it's fair to say that it'd take some of Doflamingo's stronger attacks to do much of anything to Judar's Borg.

I disagree as so far I believe Doffy has both the physical as well as potency advantage over Sinbad. In my opinion, Doffy should have no problem easily ripping through the borg with even his basic attacks.

I feel like going against a Magi isn't ideal for a lot of Doflamingo's abilities, with this one being the prime example. Judar always has his Borg up (as he's aware of his own relative squishiness), so nabbing him with Parasite String is going to be virtually impossible.

Apart from the doubts raised over the reflexive nature of Borg, whilst its true that Borg can indeed block Parasite, I fail to see why Doffy can't just control or at least restrain the Borg itself with the ability.

Judar's Borg isn't immune or untouchable to pure physical force that can break or restrain it, as shown for instance, when Ugo slammed and broke it early in the series or later on when Aladdin's sand golem punched it and Aladdin fixed a constant physical force on it to punt him into space. So given that, I don't see why Doffy can't attach several strings to and restrain the Borg itself.

The benefits of such a strategy are obvious, Doffy can hold the Borg in space and unload on it with his powerful attacks to shred it open. If Judar tries to teleport away or something (though you haven't shown any feats of him using teleportation in combat) he will just leave himself undefended, as Doffy with Observation haki will know where he is going to materialize in advance.

Also I don't agree that Judar has his Borg up every second in a fight. In fact unless explicitly defending against an attack, he almost never does, as shown in all his fights, be it against Sinbad or Aladdin:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
Various examples of Judar having clearly no Borg active in the middle of a fight

One other thing I feel worth mentioning, it's a known fact that Borgs need to concentrate magoi in order to raise defenses in certain parts.

So something like Doffy's Awakening, which can easily attack it omni directionally, should shatter it, as the Borg wouldn't be able to defend equally in all directions:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Doffy making dozens of Awakened string spears with which he can attack an opponent omnidirectionally

In conclusion:

  1. I think Doffy should have the power and potency to rip through the Borg
  2. He can restrain the Borg itself with Parasite
  3. There's no proof yet that the Borg can reflexively defend Judar from attacks he has no idea are coming
  4. Judar doesn't even have his Borg up at all times in the first place, except when he explicitly sees and needs to defend against an incoming attack
  5. Doffy can exploit the Borg's weakness and attack it omni directionally with his Awakening to overwhelm it

D

Dealing with Judar III: Speed

Here I will discuss Judar's speed and how I feel Doffy stacks up in comparison.

I'd like an exact number if it won't be too much trouble.

Sure, so he basically reacted to and outpaced an explosion that was right on his clothes. Since explosions are at least supersonic and even the thickest fabrics in the world are like 0.4 mm thick, it roughly comes out to Luffy reacting in a single micro second. And it takes about Mach 2857 to cover 1 meter in a microsecond, so I'd say people like Doffy who can blitz and move FTE to Luffy's perceptions from several meters away would have low mid quad mach movement speeds.

Judar scales to Hakuryuu (and therefore Alibaba) in speed based on the fact that he can keep up with him no problem and did so on numerous occasions during the final arc:

I don't think Hakuryuu scales to Alibaba in speed after the powerup Alibaba got during the time skip where he can essentially see the world in slow motion:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Alibaba's powerup from the timeskip

It's clearly portrayed as an insane boost in perceptions and reactions, something that both Hakuryuu and Judar lack.

Both he and Hakuryuu more or less blitzed Full Djinn Equip Sinbad here, someone who was fast enough to fight a lightning timer in base with no issues. I call him a lightning timer because Sinbad brought down a lightning bolt straight from the clouds and Darius summoned his shield fast enough to block it.

I don't think Sinbad really got blitzed there as in the top panel we see that he is holding his sword downwards while in the bottom right panel we see it in an upward position, clearly showing an attempt to block their strikes.

This is also more likely due to 4 people fighting and distracting him at once as opposed to either Judar or Hakuryuu being flat out fast enough to blitz him. When Sinbad and Judar fights 1v1 in the very next chapter, we clearly see they are more or less matched in speed.

And for the lightning timing, I have already shown you why that's not impressive at all for people on Doffy's tier. Either Brook or Kalifa's feats would be far better than Darius' there because they both reacted to lightning from several meters away unlike Darius who reacted to from the clouds, so several km away.

Observation haki

I don't want to be presumptuous, but Judar just might be fast enough to "lol blitz" Doflamingo. Having Kenbunshoku Haki is a needed facet of his arsenal here.

Honestly I don't think the speed difference is as much as I initially thought. He questionably scales to being faster than Sinbad who could fight a lightning timer, but Doffy scales far better in that regard.

And the only solid quad mach feat you brought I don't think you can scale Judar reliably to for reasons mentioned.

Which means Observation haki might be decisive here as even Satori, who was far slower than Luffy or Sanji (to the point they should have been fast enough to blitz him) can toy with them just through CoO alone. As here from what I can see, the speed gap isn't even that vast so as to allow Judar to concretely blitz Doffy, his CoO should make it downright impossible for Judar to tag him.

Doflamingo hasn't shown feats that would justify him knowing what Judar was going to do before he did, which probably wouldn't help him even if he could considering that knowing what your opponent is going to do doesn't necessarily allow you to stop it.

Well basic precognition is one of CoO's most fundamental uses as explained by Rayleigh and demonstrated by Enel and his priests on Skypiea, where they could all predict every next move that Luffy and co were going to do.

But Doffy has shown at least this basic level of mastery being able to casually dodge all of Baby 5's attacks while not even looking at her and conversing with Vergo on telephone.

And he should definitely scale to Luffy's own level of CoO as he was able to keep up with and even outspeed Luffy in cqc.

And knowing Judar's next move is a huge boon for obvious reasons. He would be able to know where Judar is aiming his lightning bolts or planning to bring down an ice spear next for instance, and have a head start in dodging the attacks.

Judar has no physical power whatsoever. I don't think that Kenbunshoku Haki would allow him to sense magical prowess, so at best all he would feel is a relatively fit normal dude.

CoO doesn't really detect physical power, it's more along the lines of "spirit" or "aura" sensing.

Defending Doffy

Here I will address some of the rebuttals you had for the feats and scaling I showed

I'd like to see some evidence for the kinetic energy of these meteorites. I'm not doubting it, but allowing people to make unsupported claims isn't a good debating practice.

Well, if we go back and look at the crater his Green Bit meteor made,

No Caption Provided

...we can see that someone like Doffy (who is already 3 meters tall) is almost a point compared to the diameter of the crater, so it's reasonable to say the diameter is quite in excess of something like a 100 meters. This is also a fragment of the meteor as a large portion was bfr'd back to space by Issho.

So a meteor that even conservatively would be larger than 200 meters would pack a kinetic energy of 261 Mt (source: Wikipedia Impact Event) which is multi mountain (as mountain level starts from 100 Mt).

The ones he summoned on Dressrosa and that got no sold by the Bird Cage were much larger, with fragments dwarfing buildings and one meteor in particular even comparable to the mountain sized Pica:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Of course the KE of these would be exponentially larger

While that's cool and all, it's almost immediately taken care of by Judar's own automatic attacks (namely his ice dragons). If he sent two or three multi-mountain busting ice dragons that can freeze as thoroughly as they can, then his string clone would be decimated in an instant.

Freezing resistance for both Doffy and his strings have already been provided so taking care of the Black Knight may not be as easy as you think. Especially as the Black Knight is pretty powerful and durable and fast itself being able to clash with both base Luffy and Law. What's better is that Doffy can synchronize attacks with the Black Knight to press an opponent from multiple directions.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Mingo coordinating attacks with the Black Knight to overwhelm Luffy

And of course there's no real limit to how many times Mingo can make such a clone so at the very least it's a solid distraction.

I don't see this coming into play in the fight, but Judar could quite literally just teleport out.

I suppose. The Bird Cage was more to establish Doffy being at island lvl pretty easily without any strain.

I don't know if I buy this line of thinking. I'm aware that the Black Knights are indeed made from the same string as the Bird Cage, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense when we look at how much trouble other characters like Zoro had with merely pushing it back. If Luffy could destroy one of these things (which should be more condensed and thefore more durable than the sections of the Bird Cage that Zoro was hitting), then that would make him stronger than Zoro to a degree that isn't supported by the narrative of the story of the portrayal of the characters.

I don't see the issue, as you said Zoro merely tried to push the Cage back not try and cut through it with any of his powerful named attacks and what not, so it isn't exactly right to conclude he couldn't cut the Birdcage strings if he wanted. Secondly Luffy didn't one shot the Black Knight, he needed a Gatling, which is a barrage of punches to rip apart its strings. And lastly, Gear Second Luffy should anyway be stronger than Zoro, as has been established ever since Enies Lobby.

It's not an "of course" moment, that's for sure. Chinjao was old and weaker than he'd been before to a degree that we aren't aware of. If we want to use the already sketchy feat of splitting the continent, it still wouldn't be applicable to Luffy in any meaningful way.

You would have a point here..........,if not for the fact that old Chinjao in the Dressrosa arc confirmed to Sai, his grandson, that deforming his drill meant Sai had enough power to split the ice continent:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Sai deforms Chinjao's drill to which Chinjao acknowledges that Sai is powerful enough to split the ice continent

So yeah anyone who can deform even Dressrosa Chinjao's drill scales above the ice continent split.

I don't agree with Pica's arm being the size of a small mountain for one, as he himself is about as large as Flower Hill (which isn't the size of a mountain either).

I really hoped that you wouldn't be too nitpicky in the sizes of structures and tedious debates regarding whether something's a "mountain" or a "hill". I can ask the same for the "mountains" you are using to scale in Muu's feat, and it wouldn't be any fun at all.

But whatever, to establish Pica and Flower Hill as mountain sized, I think taking any of the countless, consistent shots of buildings looking like pimples on them would suffice:

Here's a decent shot of Flower Hill from a distance and you can clearly make out numerous buildings dotted on its body:

Top left panel
Top left panel

I think it's clear that you can fit hundreds of 2-3 storey buildings on one of those numerous spikes portruding from Flower Hill alone, never mind the entire volume of the structure, which is enough to be easily proper mountain sized.

As for Pica, there's a very clear cut close up of his fist:

No Caption Provided

It's obvious that we can fit dozens of buildings on one of Pica's fingers alone.

Another thing would be that he didn't do that by himself and it's impossible to determine who did more work between Chinjao and Elizabello. It almost invalidates the feat altogether, not that it would've helped against Judar as it stands now.

I think it's safe to say that they both would have contributed roughly equal amounts given the portrayal and intent of the scene and that the air pressure from both attacks hit Pica's arm at vastly different points but still crushed right through the rock.

Another point worth noting is that they didn't just crush his arm but also pretty much cancel out the momentum of Pica's punch there, which considering the size of Pica's punch would be insane on its own.

He didn't, though, as the town was still there. If he turned the entire town into strings, then he wouldn't have hit the ground when Luffy overpowered him via King Kong Gun. I know that his range is huge, but that's blatantly untrue. Judar has large range as well, being able to (as I've already shown) freeze multiple city blocks instantly and summon lightning on an island wide scale.

Well all his abilities, like the Bird Cage and everything, would have automatically vanished the moment he got KO'd by Luffy's KKG so this counter doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

But one of the only clear cut shots of the AoE of Doffy's Awakening we get, we see that it stretches past the horizon from a height above Doffy himself:

Awakening's range and AoE
Awakening's range and AoE

Distance to the horizon from someone of Doffy's height would already be above 6 km, which lines up perfectly well with the multiple statements of Doffy transmuting the entire town.

Judar doesn't need to predict or even dodge it to be honest. In addition to that, he usually flies rather high in the air and would probably notice the spike coming for him considering that fact. It'd be as simple as drifting to the side, as he has free form flight whereas Doflamingo does not (something that could be trouble if he decided to engage Judar up close).

Well I can agree Awakening may not blindside him per se, but Doffy being able to use it for large scale omni directional attacks from a safe range is still a major plus for pressuring and overwhelming Judar's Borg here.

I also don't get the point with Judar having free form flight. Doffy has never had any problem keeping up with or even overwhelming characters in aerial combat that have free form flight of their own such as Sanji and G4 Boundman Luffy.

I think we both know that it's not that simple. If he pulled continents, then the force would be spread out over his entire body and over a long period of time, which is significantly less impressive than tanking a punch with that much force behind it. It'd take the exact size of said continents and whole lot of further calculations to even get the force that was exerted on him, so Luffy snapping his spine (while undoubtedly impressive for the time) simply doesn't match up here.

If we ignore my above point, then I'd agree.

The "Continent Puller" statement was simply a general portrayal argument, further evidence to support characters at that tier being already at mountain level, in durability at least. Him being able to tank a brutal beatdown from Nightmare Luffy (much stronger than Oars himself, whose striking is easily large hill level) without any real damage is all the scaling's that really required to say pre skip Luffy's G3 punch shattering his spine should already be in the mountain lvl in striking.

Then Pacifistas can take a G3 punch from PTS Luffy without any structural damage while a basic attack from post skip Luffy makes one explode, showing post skip Luffy's basic attacks are already operating above mountain lvl.

If even more proof is required, Pacifistas are more durable than pre skip Franky, who was at the epicenter of an explosion like this

In that same instance that you posted, we can see that Surume isn't 300 meters tall. It doesn't match up with the height of anything we can use as a reference in that scene.

You have to be a bit more specific as to what exactly your point is here, are you saying that Surume isn't 300 meters tall? Because we have that information from a canon databook.

Conclusions

After my opponent's opener, I am convinced that Doffy holds a solid advantage in every relevant aspect here besides maybe speed.

His physicals and his strings are potent enough to shred Judar's Borg, he is fast enough to outspeed Judar's lightning and possibly even his ice, has decent heat durability and freezing resistance, can easily just block all of Judar's attacks with his Awakened strings, which has massive range and AoE and can be generated by Doffy nigh endlessly. Whatever speed gap (if any) is nothing that Observation haki cannot easily make up for or even tilt the advantage in this regard in Doffy's favor.

The other thing is, as we can both agree, Judar's own physical durability is nothing that can stand up to any attack from Doffy. So all Doffy really needs to do is break or circumvent the Borg. Which as shown, he has a multitude of ways to do, be it taking Judar unawares with a string attack he won't see coming, restraining the Borg with several Parasite strings, or overwhelming it with omnidirectional Awakening attacks.

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shirso

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CaoCao

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TAEP pls.

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@shirso: Neat, I'll have my post up as soon as I can.

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#31  Edited By KillerQueen

@shirso: My next post might take a little longer than the first, something has come up. I apologize in advance, but I promise that I'll try my best to have it up.

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#32  Edited By shirso
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#34  Edited By KillerQueen

@shirso: I've been in some serious shit as of late, but I apologize for allowing this to fall to the wayside. I don't suppose you'd have much interest in continuing it now, but I wanted to say something regardless.