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#1 Edited by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

Picture if you will (1st person to know where thats from, their vote will count as double) a world where, when World War Hulk came to Earth, a giant horse with an awesome hammer was there. (@ordinaryalan and @thebourneposter got it, his vote counts as 2)

he would most assuredly try to stop Hulk

would he succeed? or would he end up like all the rest, waiting for a plot and a mentally unstable superhero to come in and screw WWH over?

Serrure- Beta Ray Bill

i honestly dont see how Sif can do it but whatever
i honestly dont see how Sif can do it but whatever

vs

Thedailybagel- World War Hulk

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no WBH, everything else is fair game including green scar

Battle Rules

Morals On

Win by KO/Incap/Death

No BFR

start 75 meters apart

The Battlefield

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New York City (starts in park but will most definitely leave)

and what is a fight without cheerleaders

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#2 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel and can i get someone to bump after this cuz me and him agreed i do the opener

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#3 Posted by GhostRavage (14941 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this solely based on WWH story arc or do you mean Green Scar incarnation?

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#4 Edited by Wolfrazer (15968 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: Sif can do it cause magic, also probably lots of determination!(just thought of a hilarious mental image) Bill/Sif my OTP! Also looks good!

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#5 Edited by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this solely based on WWH story arc or do you mean Green Scar incarnation?

im allowing pretty much anything that isnt WBH

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#6 Posted by GhostRavage (14941 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: Interesting, this should be good. You have strong chances of winning so i'll have my eyes on your arguments most of the time.

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#7 Posted by Thedailybagel (12621 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: the incarnation, if it was purely WWH I'd be screwed.

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#8 Posted by GhostRavage (14941 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: the incarnation, if it was purely WWH I'd be screwed.

That's why i was asking... You should change the OP stating this.

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#9 Edited by Thedailybagel (12621 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: mind if you change wwh to the green scar? It might confuse people.

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#10 Edited by Thedailybagel (12621 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger I think you might find this interesting ;)

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#11 Posted by OrdinaryAlan (6706 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure said:

Picture if you will (1st person to know where thats from, their vote will count as double) a world where, when World War Hulk came to Earth, a giant horse with an awesome hammer was there.

Farscape?

Anyways, this looks like it will be a good debate. BRB's versatility may prove to be too much for Hulk, but I'm not sure. Tag for votes please. :)

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#12 Edited by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by MysticMedivh (32250 posts) - - Show Bio

On a completely unrelated note, does anyone know who that chick is in the picture with BRB?

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#14 Edited by Wolfrazer (15968 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Edited by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio

I SWEAR I WAS PLANNING TO ASK @thedailybagel IF HE'D WANT TO DO THIS EXACT CAV. GOD I'M MAD.

Tag me, looks good.

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#16 Posted by Thedailybagel (12621 posts) - - Show Bio

@beaconofstrength: seriously? Unlucky man, we'll definitely have a CaV eventually though.

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#17 Posted by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: Yeah, I'll figure out another character then get back to you on that.

Good luck, to the both of you.

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#18 Posted by OrdinaryAlan (6706 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by BullPR (5753 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: Please tag me for the vote. I have to warn you, you will have to be flawless with a powerhouse like BRB.

Good luck!

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#20 Posted by Kingant27 (16804 posts) - - Show Bio

This looks good, tag me for voting please...

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#21 Edited by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

so... @thedailybagel

btws congrats @ordinaryalan he got it right and he now possesses a vote worth 2

@beaconofstrength Gladiator> Beta Ray Bill :P

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just a bio for him

theres simply too much versatility to cover in one opener so ill do my very best

Offense

Beta Ray Bill is an offensive machine

Physical Force

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the guy put a hole in Galactus, which is ubber

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thats some serious striking feats

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hes no stranger to Hulks either

Energy

bad news... Speed isnt that much of a factor here (no wait it still is), even worse news Beta Ray Bill has more energy than god

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Surfer and Gladiator pay their respects, as they should i mean he is a talking horse and thats scary

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several instances of him using energy attacks so they are a factor here

and given they were able to hurt people like Fenris and Stardust its safe to assume they pack a punch

Defense

hes got the durability of Thor

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Galactus hits him with a blast that destroyed nearly half the planet. does it bother BRB? no not really

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he survives a full planet busting attack. (uber)

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he goes toe to toe with Warrior Madness Thor... there are some scans missing but the point is he takes a hammering from a guy who 2 shotted Silver Surfer

think its a fluke

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he does worse here but he still tanks the hammering

Speed

this wont be nearly as big a deal as you might think but BRB is faster

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now Beta Ray had ordered his ship skuttlebutt to move at full speed, its been known to travel at lightspeed, and thor had to increase his speed to keep up with it.

anyways surfer comes flying in so we can assume they are moving very fast

All hail Horse Face

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#22 Edited by Thedailybagel (12621 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: nice opener, I'll try to reply as soon as I get the time.

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#23 Posted by Lvenger (36262 posts) - - Show Bio

Yep another CAV I'm interested in. Tag me for votes please.

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#24 Posted by Thedailybagel (12621 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Edited by Thedailybagel (12621 posts) - - Show Bio

well @serrure, Its time for the grudge match...

Opener

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For those of you who dont know, i will be using the green scar, better known to most people as world war hulk. Now, the green scar is technically the gravage hulk (savage hulk and grey hulk), however, his life was turned upside down by the illuminati and he was sent a planet named sakaar. During his time on sakaar he became a slave, a gladiator, and a king. what makes it worse is the fact that he was weakened by the wormhole that took him there, though his strength did return eventually. Sadly, sakaar was virtually wiped out by an explosion (wont spoil anything) and hulk was among very few surviviors. Luckily for our jolly green giant the bomb actually amped him, permanently, combine that with an insane amount of rage and a tacticians mind, you get yourself the green scar.

Moving on though...

Durability

of all the things hulk has going for him, durability will prove to be the most important factor in my opinion. The green scar was virtually unstoppable, he was a stomping machine left right and centre and could take insane amounts of punishment without going down. Lets start off by showcasing his son; hiro kala...

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So, hiro-kala was capable of almost breaking kai (a planet from the microverse) almost effortlessly with no sign of anger whatsoever, what makes this feat even better is the fact that hiro-kala gets more powerful with anger, just like his dad. Heres an explanation from the man himself:

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In short, hiro-kala is capable of threatening entire planets whilst in a completely calm and controlled state, but what does all this have to do with hulk? Well, during incredible hulks #616, the green scar was capable of enduring blasts from a completely enraged hiro-kala without much trouble:

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I know, its completely insane, and while this may seem high end, believe me, its not. thats the type of damage the green scar was dealing with on a consistent basis. so that should prove that hulk can power through, if not tank bills energy projection. Lets move on to blunt force durability...

Lets take a look at juggernaut pounding banner tech shields in incredible hulk #602:

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That art is ghastly if I do say so myself

As you can see, juggs was producing earthquakes ranging from three point two, four point six, and eight respectively on the richter scale, and thats without being that annoyed. Now how much power is that?

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Props to Ghostravage for conviently having this info on one of his CaVs.

source: department of conservation of california

Taking that into consideration, hulk took blows from an enraged and humiliated juggernaut during world war hulk with little trouble, and didnt see the need to stop holding back, which says allot about how much it actually hurt...

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fun fact: According to the writer, hulk actually stopped juggernauts momentum temporally during this fight, a testament to his strength.

Anyway, this should be enough evidence for the time being to show that hulk has the capability to tank what beta ray bill is able to give out.

Striking power

Another attribute which hulk has in abundance, and its an aspect I believe can seriously mess bills face up, more than it already is anyway...

Lets kick things off with professor hulk, big greens second weakest incarnation but also one who had the punching power of a nuke, or, more than a nuke.

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So, since professor hulk can hit that hard I believe its safe to assume the green scar can hit much,much harder. Not that he doesnt have the feats to back it up of course...

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Its in reverse order

Hulk was capable of grounding she hulk and effortlessly one shotting ares during world war hulk, whilst holding back as amadeus cho later revealed:

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"I... I can run the numbers. So I could see he was always pulling his punches, looking out for the little people."

What further adds to the green scars striking power is the fact that he was capable of turning hercules face into a squished tomato with no more than three punches. Whilst im aware that hercules stopped fighting about half way through, it doesnt change how hulk beat him senseless with only three shots:

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Whilst pulling his punches of course...

What makes the green scar pretty cool (as if he wasnt cool already) is his ability to channel gamma energy into his attacks, without explicitly going world breaker. Here he uses the ability on miek (I think) and sends him miles away into a volcano:

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I think this should be enough to prove he can hurt bill, though believe me, I have allot more in the bag in regards to striking power. Onto the next section...

Hulks tactical mind and how it helps

As I previously mentioned, the green scar is a decent tactician, both strategically, and subconsciously, if that makes sense...

Allow me to explain, lets take planet hulk where hulk fought surfer. Him and the warbound quickly came up with a blindside strategy that they pulled off perfectly and allowed hulk to take out norrin in three blows:

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But thats not all, even on earth he recalled wolverines insane damage soak and skill. So what did hulk do? he allowed wolverine to claw out his eyes (knowing they would grow back) so he could grab him, then pounded his head in repeatedly since he knew that would knock out wolverine:

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Even later on in the issue, he acknowledged juggernauts durability and knew he would take too long to put down (well, that and the fact that the mansion was collapsing due to their fight) so he used his momentum against him for a bfr:

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There are plenty more examples I could use, there are like 5 more in that issue alone but that should be enough for now.

Now, as I mentioned before, hulk analyses things subconsciously as well, so he know where to his people and with the right amount of force to bring them down, as is explained by amadeus cho (yes, him again):

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while thats all well and good, how does all this factor into hulk vs beta ray bill? simple, hulk hates mjolnir... from memory, hulk was able to execute strategys that helped him win fights faster and more decisively. Hulk and thor have had over twenty run ins by my count, and each of those mjolnir has been, one. Big. Pain. In. The. a**. Hulk references it in almost all of their encounters, if the green scar was able to remember how durable juggernaut is, and how irritating wolverine can be, then theres no doubt in my mind he could recognize that stormbreaker is incredibly similar to mjolnir.

Now what would hulk do in realizing what stormbreaker is capable of? for one, hed stop pulling his hits, but thats only minor. Hulk would do his absolute best to keep bill at close range, therefore nullifying allot of the advantages stormbreaker brings. However, im aware bill isnt like thor in he sense he actually uses stormbreakers versatility to its fullest. I wouldnt be surprised if bill tried to pull out as soon as he realized he cant take down hulk in close combat, but thats where the green scars intelligence comes in... He would do his best to keep bill at close range, whether that means grabbing his cape or straight up bear hugging him into submission. The green scar wasnt one to underestimate opponents and seeing stormbreaker in action will just kick start hulks planning.

Honestly though, im questioning bills resistance to blunt force durability as most of the scans you've shown are energy based, something hulk doesnt really have access to in this fight. Judging by how easily bill waa beaten into submission by thanos and surfer I dont think that its a stretch to say hulk could do something similar, albeit over a longer period of time.

moving on...

Strength

since this isnt a very important aspect ill try to keep this section short, though I assure you, the green scar is one hell of a beast in the strength department.

He was capable of stopping an enraged juggernaut in his tracks, that means overpowering cains already significant strength as well as cytorraks enchantment:

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If that isnt enough he was also able to pull the tectonic plates of sakaar back together; its worth noting that hulk was weakened and sakaar is 1/3 larger than earth.

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An average tectonic plate on earth weighs 40,678,242,000,000,000,000,000 kg (though thats a rough estimate) so its more than likely that each tectonic plate hulk held weighed substantially more than that.

Conclusion

  • Hulk can tank what bill can dish out
  • Hulk can make bill uglier than he already is
  • Hulks tactical mind will prove to be a huge advantage for reasons outlined
  • Hulks smash!

@serrure, would you kindly (anyone who gets that reference also earns two votes) make the next post?

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#26 Posted by TheBournePoster (2988 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by Thedailybagel (12621 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by TheBournePoster (2988 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Edited by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel:

Round 1

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Counters

So, hiro-kala was capable of almost breaking kai (a planet from the microverse) almost effortlessly with no sign of anger whatsoever, what makes this feat even better is the fact that hiro-kala gets more powerful with anger, just like his dad. Heres an explanation from the man himself:

i doubt he was 100% calm. he seems rather angry at his father and skaar. I mean i dont go around telling people im related to "you broke me" when im all happy and calm

I know, its completely insane, and while this may seem high end, believe me, its not. thats the type of damage the green scar was dealing with on a consistent basis. so that should prove that hulk can power through, if not tank bills energy projection. Lets move on to blunt force durability...

Beta Ray Bill's energy project hurt an amped Stardust (she was the color orange), now in another set of scans i posted a base Stardust was able to bust a planet and survive the explosion.

im not buying hes gonna shake it off so easily

Taking that into consideration, hulk took blows from an enraged and humiliated juggernaut during world war hulk with little trouble, and didnt see the need to stop holding back, which says allot about how much it actually hurt...

Beta Ray Bill's strikes will cause more damage than an 8.0 Earthquake

Red Hulk has a similar feat... far from Juggernauts best.

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and hardly seems comparable to someone who can without a doubt be called a planet buster or put a hole in Galactus if he feels like it

and durability wise its not impressive either. Beta Ray bill took several repeated blows from Warrior Madness Thor (who as i said 2 shotted Silver Surfer)

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WM Thor took down Adam Warlock and Surfer. thats 2 high herald cosmic characters that have extreme durability

Another attribute which hulk has in abundance, and its an aspect I believe can seriously mess bills face up, more than it already is anyway...

we'll see but im not buying it yet... BRBs striking feats and durability speak for themselves

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like Bill went into a star to search for a weapon that Nova had thrown in there. Bill wasnt even hurt by this

Hulk was capable of grounding she hulk and effortlessly one shotting ares during world war hulk, whilst holding back as amadeus cho later revealed:

Nothing BRB couldnt replicate

What further adds to the green scars striking power is the fact that he was capable of turning hercules face into a squished tomato with no more than three punches. Whilst im aware that hercules stopped fighting about half way through, it doesnt change how hulk beat him senseless with only three shots

While impressive Hercules had no intention of fighting Hulk and only threw one punch.

What makes the green scar pretty cool (as if he wasnt cool already) is his ability to channel gamma energy into his attacks, without explicitly going world breaker. Here he uses the ability on miek (I think) and sends him miles away into a volcano:

while impressive Beta Ray Bill is one of the most durable powerhouse/cosmic characters.

I think this should be enough to prove he can hurt bill, though believe me, I have allot more in the bag in regards to striking power. Onto the next section...

I would post them. none of the previous ones would contend with Planet Busting, Galactus, or Warrior Madness Thor

Allow me to explain, lets take planet hulk where hulk fought surfer. Him and the warbound quickly came up with a blindside strategy that they pulled off perfectly and allowed hulk to take out norrin in three blows:

Silver Surfer Gladiator was far from impressive nor was he as powerful as regular Surfer

Now what would hulk do in realizing what stormbreaker is capable of? for one, hed stop pulling his hits, but thats only minor. Hulk would do his absolute best to keep bill at close range, therefore nullifying allot of the advantages stormbreaker brings. However, im aware bill isnt like thor in he sense he actually uses stormbreakers versatility to its fullest. I wouldnt be surprised if bill tried to pull out as soon as he realized he cant take down hulk in close combat, but thats where the green scars intelligence comes in... He would do his best to keep bill at close range, whether that means grabbing his cape or straight up bear hugging him into submission. The green scar wasnt one to underestimate opponents and seeing stormbreaker in action will just kick start hulks planning.

hmm not a bad idea, you might be heading in the right direction here but it wont cover Beta Ray Bills AoE

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now Nova said a single tiny bolt felt like getting hit by a freight train.

Honestly though, im questioning bills resistance to blunt force durability as most of the scans you've shown are energy based, something hulk doesnt really have access to in this fight. Judging by how easily bill waa beaten into submission by thanos and surfer I dont think that its a stretch to say hulk could do something similar, albeit over a longer period of time.

Warrior Madness Thor? twice? and a planet exploding is a planet exploding.

the only real energy durability i posted was tanking a blast from Galactus (which is still gonna have alot of force to it)

Now for my post

Stormbreaker

Mijonir is too mainstream

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now Hulk may or may not recognize this, it makes no difference it will be Hulks doom

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he'll most likely start with a throw. lets say he dodges it, it wont matter Beta Ray Bill can control its flight path (as seen in scan 1) and it can resist the pull of 2 black holes (scan 2)

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he dropped Kurse with 1 hammer throw. Kurse has been shown to be stronger than Thor

he'll press his advantage after having clobbered the Hulk by using energy attacks

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he confirmed his own planet busting feat.

and he hasnt even had to get physical yet.

Physicals

Strength/ Striking Feats

tbh ima wait for you to post the better feats of Hulk to see whats up but right now Beta Ray Bill has better striking feats here

Speed

got nothing that says BRB isnt faster

Durability

im still looking at a horse that tanked a planet exploding from its core

Intelligence

while Hulk may be technically smarter its not gonna stop him from being electrified.

Beta Ray Bill is intelligent he will use his vast amounts of energy and ranged attacks to beat Hulk. once he wears Hulk down he'll go in and finish the job

Overall

  1. Horse God= more versatile
  2. Horse God has better striking feats
  3. Horse God is not semi-retarded like Thor and knows how to use his versatility
  4. Horse God still has insane durability and strength. enough to match the Hulk for sure
  5. AoE FTW if "Hulky Poo" gets too close

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#30 Edited by Thedailybagel (12621 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1

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Counters to your counters

i doubt he was 100% calm. he seems rather angry at his father and skaar. I mean i dont go around telling people im related to "you broke me" when im all happy and calm

Look at his face, he doesnt look angry, he looks like he couldnt give a sh*t anymore, which is supported by the words "you broke me". heres the scan again:

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He looks mesmerized, not angry. Heck, lets say he is angry, hes still not as angry as he was when blasting hulk so I stand by my point that hulk took planet busting shots and was barely phased.

Beta Ray Bill's energy project hurt an amped Stardust (she was the color orange), now in another set of scans i posted a base Stardust was able to bust a planet and survive the explosion.

tbh I dont know who stardust is so I dont know exactly how durable she is (although surviving a planet bust is a good feat). Though hurting someone doesnt mean much, as ill show later on.

Red Hulk has a similar feat... far from Juggernauts best.

ahhh, rulk... I was hoping you would bring that up, in one of the scans you posted bill says and I quote "this ones proving difficult" referring to rulk. Now believe me when I tell you this, The green scar is in a completely different league when hes taking things seriously.Take this instance at the end of world war hulks (not to be confused with world war hulk):

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Ross is absolutely insane with rage, and after attempting to drain hulk he delivers his best possible shot, seemingly ending the fight. Now bare in mind, if rulk has the capability to do this with casual punches:

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Just imagine what the hit he delivered to a drained (hence slightly weakened) hulk felt like. You want to know what happened after the smoke cleared? This:

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He was almost completely unharmed, like, virtually no visible damage whatsoever, and thats while he was weakened. He proceeded to amp his thunderclap with a bit of gamma energy (just like I showed with his punch) and utterly one shotted the guy bill thought was "difficult"...

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Yeah, they arent really comparable in the slightest, moving on...

and hardly seems comparable to someone who can without a doubt be called a planet buster or put a hole in Galactus if he feels like it

Galactus regularly gets injured like that, and it also depends on how fed he was. I seriously cant count the amount of times mjolnir has hurt galactus like that. As for busting a planet, whilst bill has loose morals he wont kick things off with strikes of that magnitude, and neither will hulk to be perfectly honest, though once hulk sees stormbreakers similarity to mjolnir hed go all out to try and put bill down.

and durability wise its not impressive either. Beta Ray bill took several repeated blows from Warrior Madness Thor (who as i said 2 shotted Silver Surfer)

Professor hulk stalemated warrior madness thor...

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If your entire case rests on bill getting beat up by warrior madness thor then im far from impressed, and before you say it, no. Thor wasnt weakened in the instance I just posted, he recovered his powers prior to the fight with hulk:

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I rest my case.

like Bill went into a star to search for a weapon that Nova had thrown in there. Bill wasnt even hurt by this

Bill can chill in stars? a) not blunt force durability, b) hulk can chill in zarathos hellfire (not blaze, zarathos, the green scar one shotted blaze)...

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well, he did get hurt at first but got used to it after a couple of seconds and was capable of standing there rather casually, though zarathos took off before they could fight.

While impressive Hercules had no intention of fighting Hulk and only threw one punch.

Yes, and I said that. It doesnt change the fact that hercules face was turned into a squashed pizza with three punches, something not even thor, or even hulk in previous encounters has done.

Silver Surfer Gladiator was far from impressive nor was he as powerful as regular Surfer

I never said he was impressive, I used it as an example of hulk making tactics on the spot, which I believe I made rather clear.

now Nova said a single tiny bolt felt like getting hit by a freight train.

Im not convinced that bills AoE will be sufficient to break hulks grip, The green scar has taken much more than a freight train and has powered on even at the brink of death, so itll have to kill hulk to make him let go. And since bill is majorly dwarfed in the strength department he wont be able to separate himself with hulk by using his own strength.

Warrior Madness Thor? twice? and a planet exploding is a planet exploding.

Yup, WM thor is overrated and couldnt even beat professor hulk, a planet exploding is good but bills lack of a healing factor means hulk getting hits in will seriously count, I cant say the same for bill.

Time for my actual post...

Durability

Seeing as this is a bit of a hot topic in this debate, lets kick it off with another hot topic, namely hulk versus a freaking skyfather; motherf*cking zeus.

Lets kick things off with why hulk was at mount olympus, he wanted a reward (his family being cured of that chronic hulk disease going around) for his part in the chaos war, and went straight for the king of olympus himself to get that reward. First he waltzed past literally every god there, barely acknowledging them:

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So he walked all the way up mount olympus whilst barely acknowledging the gods, then he goes toe to toe with the man himself (he gets beaten to a pulp in fairness.

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First we have hulk hurting zeus in the second scan (there are allot more pages in this fight btw, hulk takes a sustained beating) which is a great striking feat, but then it says ALLOT about big greens durability, as he took this beating pretty much without a healing factor as was shown in incredible hulk #623...

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Then, to top it all off hulk wasnt even fighting back, as was shown when it was revealed he was there purely to offer himself as a sacrifice:

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So in summary, hulk took a sustained beating from zeus, virtually without a healing factor and he wasnt even trying to fight back... Pretty sick feat in my opinion and definitely shows off that resolve and willpower that I mentioned earlier.

Lets also use another durability feat though, the green scar inhaled a gas thingy from pandoras box that was measured at 133.45 hercs (the maximum amount of energy hercules could expend in one punch):

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Admittedly he reverted to banner for a few seconds, but that feat is the equivalent of taking 133 of hercules absolute best punches (not average punches, the best punches) from the inside, all at the same time. So what hulk could take on the outside is much more than that.

Since im nice, ill use one more feat, like the time hulk absolutely tanked planetary annihilation while on sakaar (where planet hulk took place).

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That blast practically wiped out the entire planet, and also killed his wife along with his child (or children, as we found out, hiro-kala and skaar). This is how he looked after the dust cleared:

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Taking all these feats into consideration (I also have a few more) I stand by my point that hulk has the capability to endure, if not tank what beta ray bill can dish out, in both energy projection and blunt force durability departments.

Striking power

I believe ive already shown a fair amount of striking feats, but dont worry, I still have allot more.

In terms of how hard he hits, jason Arrons hulk was capable of causing earthquakes around the world whilst casually punching a few gamma irradiated boars:

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Remember they are casual punches from a hulk inferior to the green scar, the sakaar son would hit much, much, much harder than that.

since im aware of your thanos buster team, lets get nate grey involved... Or the time hulk rather casually busted through his TK shields...

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Yep, making mince meat out of those "impenetrable" shields.

Lets also showcase a few of hulk thunderclaps:

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  • They can stun guys like hyperion, I wouldnt be surprised if they had a similar affect on beta ray bill, or, at the very least a quick stun.
  • They can also snuff out hurricanes and storms, thunderclaps could be useful against those winds and storms horse face can cook up.

More recently hulk has been able to draw blood from new hyperion whilst being at the very bottom of his anger levels due to being mind controlled:

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Thats the same guy who pretty casually survived two planets crashing into him, and hulk wasnt even angry.

So, adding in the fact that the green scar is superior to every other hulk incarnation and can amp everything he does with gamma energy like he did with miek and rulk, I think horseface is gonna be even angrier by the end of this fight.

Im not finished yet however... Im still seriously questioning bills blunt force durability, as thats pretty much all hulk bring to this fight, and judging by recent examples...

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It hasnt exactly been great, granted surfer and thanos are above hulk powerwise, physical stats are another playing field entirely, and whilst I dont think hulk will bring down bill as easy as thanos and surfer did (well, surfer didnt knock out bill but he had him on the ropes and couldve knocked him out if he pressed the advantage), it just goes to show that bill is pretty screwed in close combat with the hulk.

moving on...

Counters

now Hulk may or may not recognize this, it makes no difference it will be Hulks doom

Except it really does make a difference, once hulk recognizes its abilitys he will latch onto bill whilst repeatedly smashing his face in, by the time bill realizes hes outmatched in close quarters itll be too late as he wont be able to break away from hulks grip. But lets say somehow he manages to break combat with hulk and get some distance between himself and hulk, what then? Bill will be too injured for another brawl and hulk has the capability to tank what bill can dish out, for a short while anyway. If bill somehow manages to stay at range then hulk can just bust out those gamma amped thunderclaps like he does against anyone he cant hit, they should be more than enough to stun bill, if not injure him even more. Then all it takes is a quick jump like he did with skrull bolt and its back to square one again, except hulk will be even angrier whilst bill is still injured from his previous beat down. And this is all assuming bill can get away from combat in the first place...

he'll most likely start with a throw. lets say he dodges it, it wont matter Beta Ray Bill can control its flight path (as seen in scan 1) and it can resist the pull of 2 black holes (scan 2)

It wont matter if it hits him, if rulk can tank several blows from stormbreaker then it wouldnt be a stretch to say the green scar could shrug them off, and if bill assumes hulk is similar to red hulk (which is more than likely) he will be in for a nasty shock when the fight starts...

he dropped Kurse with 1 hammer throw.

Kurse got back up relatively unscathed, knocking someone down isnt very impressive, just take a look at that hulk vs zeus fight...

- I believe ive demonstrated hulks physical superiority

- Bill has slightly better striking feats though its not like hes going to start off with planet busting shots, and neither is hulk (untill he sees stormbreakers abilitys)

- Speed ill get onto

- durability is undoubtedly in hulks corner and is his main advantage during this fight

- Intelligence is hulks second biggest advantage and he wont allow bill to use stormbreakers versatility, if bill does manage to use it hulks durability will seriously come into play

Speed

In terms of combat speed hulk is much faster than he appears and whilst it wont be a huge advantage hulk can use it nonetheless...

Hes proven to be able to block wolverines attacks:

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Can catch hawkeyes arrows while multitasking:

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Can catch caps shield:

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And can dodge ares attacks without even trying:

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So hes pretty damn fast...

Summary

  • Hulk has the capability to tank what bill can dish out, whether that be with energy projection or his hammer
  • Hulk has the striking power to really mess bill up and the strength gap allows hulk to keep bill close
  • Hulk tactical smarts will allow him to gain an edge over bill early in the fight, combined with his subconscious accuracy and gamma amping should allow him to pull ahead even more
  • Hulk is ten times the man bill is
  • Hulk smash

@serrure The balls in your court.

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#32 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by Thedailybagel (12621 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Edited by johnfrank120 (6702 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for votes please.

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#35 Edited by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel:

Round 2

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see thats Beta Ray Bill... he means Earth is off limits even from Crazy big Green People with major anger issues

Something i Need to fix

i must say i made a mistake

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i posted the second scan as a result of Stardusts attack i was wrong, the first scan was (doesnt change anything) i just wanted to acknowledge my mistake. hes still a planet buster but it just looks different

tbh I dont know who stardust is so I dont know exactly how durable she is (although surviving a planet bust is a good feat). Though hurting someone doesnt mean much, as ill show later on.

Stardust herald of Galacuts. of the big four heralds (Surfer, Stardust, Terax, Firelord) Stardust would be ranked number 2

but make no mistake hes extremely powerful

ahhh, rulk... I was hoping you would bring that up, in one of the scans you posted bill says and I quote "this ones proving difficult" referring to rulk. Now believe me when I tell you this, The green scar is in a completely different league when hes taking things seriously.Take this instance at the end of world war hulks (not to be confused with world war hulk):

Beta Ray Bill was holding back... the entire Annihilators were because they were at Earth for The Church or Truth or some crazy religious crap like that (and Magus) not to mention they had no intention of fighting the avengers.

its fairly obvious that BRB was not putting full effort into it, none of them were. he even told the Annihilators to break off from fighting the Avengers as they were getting distracted

Ross is absolutely insane with rage, and after attempting to drain hulk he delivers his best possible shot, seemingly ending the fight. Now bare in mind, if rulk has the capability to do this with casual punches:

Ehh... few things here. the only time Rulk has really been a threat to Hulk is under loeb writing. im under no delusion that Rulk actually stands a chance against Hulk (without gamma draining, which he doesnt use)

but again this is physical attacks and Rulks are not equal to Beta Ray Bill's normal strike

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sorry these are backwords but he does send Silver Surfer flying, and it may look like he was charging his attack (and lets assume he was) he did it all before Surfer could reach him (and as i posted earlier at full Speed Skuttlebutt can travel at lightspeed)

now a funny thing cuz you've brought up She-Hulk

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just for comparison

Galactus regularly gets injured like that, and it also depends on how fed he was. I seriously cant count the amount of times mjolnir has hurt galactus like that. As for busting a planet, whilst bill has loose morals he wont kick things off with strikes of that magnitude, and neither will hulk to be perfectly honest, though once hulk sees stormbreakers similarity to mjolnir hed go all out to try and put bill down.

show me an instance of Galactus' shell being breached... even Thors Godblast didnt put a hull in it. Galactus does not receive injuries like that all the time

the only time Galactus had injuries like that was against Celestials and such...

If your entire case rests on bill getting beat up by warrior madness thor then im far from impressed, and before you say it, no. Thor wasnt weakened in the instance I just posted, he recovered his powers prior to the fight with hulk:

your attempts at lowballing are somewhat impressive though also somewhat unwarranted... i already posted Warrior Madness Thor beating Adam Warlock and Silver Surfer. 2 people who would destroy any incarnation of the Hulk but you dont find it the least bit odd that somehow Hulk was able to match him?

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Im not convinced that bills AoE will be sufficient to break hulks grip, The green scar has taken much more than a freight train and has powered on even at the brink of death, so itll have to kill hulk to make him let go. And since bill is majorly dwarfed in the strength department he wont be able to separate himself with hulk by using his own strength.

I said a single tiny bolt hit with the force of a freight train

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i dont know what you see but i know everyone else will see a huge difference between that

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and this

and Bill is not majorly dwarfed in the strength department... i just deemed it irrelevant as it has nothing to do with Striking power...

Second Hulk isnt even touching Beta Ray Bill (as Beta Ray Bill has nano-second reaction feats... See Silver Surfer set of scans and i again have proven that Surfer was flying at near lightspeed)

Yup, WM thor is overrated and couldnt even beat professor hulk, a planet exploding is good but bills lack of a healing factor means hulk getting hits in will seriously count, I cant say the same for bill.

more lowballing... and Adam Warlock or Silver Surfer would absolutely wreck any Hulk, and Warrior Madness Thor beat both...

right definitely seems like overrated and not major lowballing.

So in summary, hulk took a sustained beating from zeus, virtually without a healing factor and he wasnt even trying to fight back... Pretty sick feat in my opinion and definitely shows off that resolve and willpower that I mentioned earlier.

Lets also use another durability feat though, the green scar inhaled a gas thingy from pandoras box that was measured at 133.45 hercs (the maximum amount of energy hercules could expend in one punch):

plz post striking feats of Zeus that say this is even slightly impressive (heads up they dont exist and Zeus is majorly featless) and Hulk took a beating on purpose... hmm seems familar to when Hercules wasnt fighting back but you chose not to use the Herc feat as striking power, but this should be durability?

yeah Zeus would beat Beta Ray Bill if BRB decided to just sit there and take it.

That blast practically wiped out the entire planet, and also killed his wife along with his child (or children, as we found out, hiro-kala and skaar). This is how he looked after the dust cleared:

and?

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Beta Ray Bill was asleep in a star going supernova... i fail to see what significance it has

Remember they are casual punches from a hulk inferior to the green scar, the sakaar son would hit much, much, much harder than that.

yeah Beta Ray Bill still has better striking feats... i think ill be able to say for sure that BRB has better feats

since im aware of your thanos buster team, lets get nate grey involved... Or the time hulk rather casually busted through his TK shields...

His TK shields are not that impressive. also that was X-man Pre-Shamanwho did not have full access to his powers. he had to limit their uses otherwise he would burn himself out.

Yep, making mince meat out of those "impenetrable" shields.

right...

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seems inconsistent at best

  • They can stun guys like hyperion, I wouldnt be surprised if they had a similar affect on beta ray bill, or, at the very least a quick stun.
  • They can also snuff out hurricanes and storms, thunderclaps could be useful against those winds and storms horse face can cook up.

im voicing a solid "No" on these

1. Hyperion has super senses so like Wolverine it makes him vulnerable to sound... Beta Ray Bill has no sort of weakness

2. a thunderclap is going to take down a storm fully controlled by Beta Ray... i really dont see that happening

So, adding in the fact that the green scar is superior to every other hulk incarnation and can amp everything he does with gamma energy like he did with miek and rulk, I think horseface is gonna be even angrier by the end of this fight.

World Breaker Hulk is better...

and while all we have discussed as physcials we still havent discussed how hes gonna tag Beta Ray

who can easily take to the air and simply spam lightning and stormbreaker throws

Except it really does make a difference, once hulk recognizes its abilitys he will latch onto bill whilst repeatedly smashing his face in, by the time bill realizes hes outmatched in close quarters itll be too late as he wont be able to break away from hulks grip. But lets say somehow he manages to break combat with hulk and get some distance between himself and hulk, what then? Bill will be too injured for another brawl and hulk has the capability to tank what bill can dish out, for a short while anyway. If bill somehow manages to stay at range then hulk can just bust out those gamma amped thunderclaps like he does against anyone he cant hit, they should be more than enough to stun bill, if not injure him even more. Then all it takes is a quick jump like he did with skrull bolt and its back to square one again, except hulk will be even angrier whilst bill is still injured from his previous beat down. And this is all assuming bill can get away from combat in the first place...

1. no it doesnt

2. plz stop lowballing Beta Ray Bills extreme durability the idea that he cant take several punches from Hulk is absolutely absurd. you wanna know what it took to KO Beta Ray Bill... in all his fights with Stardust he was never KO'ed (this includes planet busting attacks)

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it took Galactus hitting him (and this was after he had been hit with that half planet busting attack and was fighting stardust) so it took Galacuts smashing a weakened Beta Ray Bill to KO him.

so can we stop lowballing his durability? maybe a little bit

3. he wont be that injured as i still havent seen Hulk come anywhere near planet busting. and Beta Ray Bill will learn not to try that again without weakening Hulk first so he'll fly and spam lightning and stormbreaker toss

4. Skrullbolt was several times weaker than the real Black Bolt

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+

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seems like Skrull-bolt was substantially weaker

It wont matter if it hits him, if rulk can tank several blows from stormbreaker then it wouldnt be a stretch to say the green scar could shrug them off, and if bill assumes hulk is similar to red hulk (which is more than likely) he will be in for a nasty shock when the fight starts...

Beta Ray Bill was holding back severely against Rulk.

2. i dont know how you could make the assumption that Beta Ray Bill would think Hulk= Rulk. hes not color blind, nor is he a moron.

Speed

there was literally nothing impressive in that section at all... Beta Ray Bill has micro-second reaction at the very very very least. and Nano-second+ at the most. i believe he is in nano-second speed

My Turn

Beta Ray Bill is not made of Glass

can we stop acting like he is... seriously? Hulk is not going to easy 1-shot him and i have seen nothing that impressive

2. can we stop lowballing Warrior Madness Thor... seriously anyone who can take on Adam Warlock in absolutely embarrass him like WM Thor did is more than capable of beating a regular Hulk.

Speed

on the ground Hulk may tag BRB 1 out of every 5 (thats being generous)

in the air forget about it... Bill would remain untouched... hes too fast and has way to many ranged abilities.

it wont be like Gladiator who has to remain in close quarters.

Striking Feats

Beta Ray Bill remains superior here

Stormbreaker...

its gonna hurt

How This Ends

Hulk will deep fried and Bill will go spend quality time with Lady Sif.

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#36 Edited by chaos911 (4166 posts) - - Show Bio

Why you guys always making awesome CaV? Tag me guys

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#37 Edited by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty good debate so far, except for when the whole Rulk vs Beta Ray Bill part being mentioned. The Annihilators were jobbering so hard it wasn't even funny. Gladiator, Ronan, and Bill couldn't handle a roster of low mid-tier characters. Ms. Marvel and Rulk were the only real threats on the Avengers, too. It really was PIS at its finest.

Everything else has been pretty fantastic. Fun read so far, keep it up.

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#38 Posted by sophia89 (19802 posts) - - Show Bio

@serrure: I know the CAV was postponed,but tag when you're done.

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#39 Edited by Thedailybagel (12621 posts) - - Show Bio

Back in business baby

Lets just get straight into this thing.

Counters

Beta Ray Bill was holding back... the entire Annihilators were because they were at Earth for The Church or Truth or some crazy religious crap like that (and Magus) not to mention they had no intention of fighting the avengers.

its fairly obvious that BRB was not putting full effort into it, none of them were. he even told the Annihilators to break off from fighting the Avengers as they were getting distracted

Eh, if I was seriously in a rush for something id be inclined to hit harder as opposed to holding back, especially if I didnt have any real reason to hold back, but whatever. Ill take your word for it seeing as the annihilators were supposedly jobbing.

Ehh... few things here. the only TIME Rulk has really been a threat to Hulk is under loeb writing. im under no delusion that Rulk actually stands a chance against Hulk (without gamma draining, which he doesnt use)

but again this is physical attacks and Rulks are not equal to Beta Ray Bill's normal strike

Not even gamma draining works on the green scar, he can resist and has done so in the past. The only time he was ever drained was by the cathexis ray, and thats because he let himself get drained.

Maybe, but rulk was much more powerful in that period of time than he is nowadays. Fact remains that he was causing continent level blows rather casually, reaching up to the level 310 tsar bombs can produce, considering a single tsar bomb can do this:

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Its not very hard to imagine what 310 could do, yet hulk was completely unphased by rulk hitting him with much more force than what he hit A-bomb with.

sorry these are backwords but he does send Silver Surfer flying, and it may look like he was charging his attack (and lets assume he was) he did it all before Surfer could reach him (and as i posted earlier at full Speed Skuttlebutt can TRAVEL at lightspeed)

Knocking surfer back isnt that great to be honest, he doesnt have anything on the green scar in regards to blunt force durability, but it is a decent reaction feat, although theres no way to tell if skuttlebucket was at full speed.

your attempts at lowballing are somewhat impressive though also somewhat unwarranted... i already posted Warrior Madness Thor beating Adam Warlock and Silver Surfer. 2 people who would destroy any incarnation of the Hulk but you dont find it the least bit odd that somehow Hulk was able to match him?

Warrior madness thor is much more physically powerful than ordinary thor, nothing states that his energy based attacks are anymore powerful than his regular ones. You know what hulks bread and butter is? physical strength. Hulk (even in his second weakest incarantion) is based entirely on physical prowess, which surfer and warlock are not. Hulk matching WM thor with physical strength is by no means ridiculous, considering in the physical department he majorly outclasses both warlock and surfer. Its also why beta ray bill was able to last longer than warlock or surfer, hes much more physically powerful than both of them. Not to mention that peter david is notoriously impartial in regards to hulk fighting other characters, and is always respectful when using them. I mean, its not like thor was particularly hurt, the narration made it rather clear at the end of the fight that thor wasnt really hurt, it just shows hulk being able to keep up with him due to how powerful he was physically. In short I stand by my stance that hulk performed better than bill did against WM thor.

I said a SINGLE tiny bolt hit with the force of a freight train

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Seriously? thats sam rider, hes nowhere near as powerful as his dad was. Not to mention hes a kid, the very fact that he was able to noticeably hurt bill just weakens your case. Just last week that exact same nova fought kluh (a new incarnation of hulk completely inferior to the green scar by feats) and was sent to paris with one punch, same woke up a few days later in hospital with his helmet broken.

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Nova #23

Your gonna need to show more than that to prove he will be able to dislodge this hulk, sam rider doesnt even have any country level feats, let alone casually shrugging off planet busting blasts like the green scar can.

and BILL is not majorly dwarfed in the strength DEPARTMENT... i just deemed it irrelevant as it has nothing to do with Striking power...

Thats a completely blank statement, thus far in the debate bill is dwarfed in the strength department and youve shown nothing to prove that he can break hulks grip.

Second Hulk isnt even touching Beta Ray Bill (as Beta Ray Bill has nano-second reaction feats... See Silver Surfer set of scans and i again have proven that Surfer was flying at near lightspeed)

yeah, im calling bullsh*t on that one. Anyone who has anything close to a consistent nanosecond reaction time should be able to dance around guys like thor, rulk, or even thanos with ease. The fact that thor never has problems when trying to hit beta ray bill tells me that hulk wouldnt either, please, dont try to sell off bill as some kind of expert speedster who can dodge every punch thrown his way because hes not. Hulk has consistently tagged guys like surfer and quicksilver so he should have no problem when hitting bill.

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so no, hulk wont have trouble in the slightest when trying to hit bill.

more lowballing... and Adam Warlock or Silver Surfer would absolutely wreck any Hulk, and Warrior Madness Thor beat both...

The only reason either of those guys would wreck is due to draining, and that doesnt even work on the green scar. Sure, they might be able to win without it but thats due to their versatility, in terms of raw physical output hulk would wreck both of them at the same time. Neither of those guys are up front melee fighters like hulk is, they were stomped due to thor engaging them in the physical department. Thor engaging hulk in the physical department is a different matter entirely. Say we were using wally west, if they both stood still who could take more hits from thor? despite wally being undeniably more powerful hulk would be able to take more hits precisely because that his powerset, not wallys, not adams, not surfers, but hulks.

plz post striking feats of Zeus that say this is even slightly impressive (heads up they dont EXIST and Zeus is majorly featless) and Hulk took a beating on purpose... hmm seems familar to when Hercules wasnt fighting back but you chose not to use the Herc feat as striking power, but this should be durability?

1) Correct, I dont have any striking feats for zeus. Are there any? probably, I just dont have them. Point is that zeus is consistently said to be odins equal, whether thats backed by feats or not. Marvels intentions were, and still are for zeus to be on odins level.

2) What? I did use the herc feat as striking power, what are you on about? And yes, it should. Considering hulk took a sustained beating from zeus without his healing factor and lived to tell the tale.

Beta Ray Bill was asleep in a star GOING supernova... i fail to see what significance it has

And as ive said countless times, hulk doesnt bring energy attacks to this fight. For the record hulk also eats gamma bombs for a living and theyre supposedly equal to the energy a supernova makes, albeit on a smaller scale:

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Ill finish this when i get the time

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#40 Posted by SuperGoku17 (7220 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder why this never finished

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#41 Posted by Thedailybagel (12621 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder why this never finished

Laptop broke at the time iirc

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#42 Edited by SuperGoku17 (7220 posts) - - Show Bio