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#1 Edited by sophia89 (19802 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer(pre and post Annihilation feats) represented by @lvenger

VS

Void/Sentry represented by @sophia89

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vs

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Rules:

no bfr

random encouter

morals off for SS

win by any means(except bfr)

this is a cav,so don't vote based on who you think wins,but rather on who debated better

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#2 Posted by sophia89 (19802 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger o.k its made,if you want to go first that's fine.

i will post as soon as i get my post in order :)

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#3 Edited by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Edited by Strider1992 (18501 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger in a CaV O.O haven't seen this before!!!! I shall watch this!

image

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#5 Posted by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm interested, tag me.

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#6 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice.

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#7 Edited by marvel_boy2241 (2548 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642 (4371 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool

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#9 Posted by reaverlation (25549 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm...

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#10 Posted by darkseid1006 (4076 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by New_World_Order (14895 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

Somebody other than me using surfer?! Blasphemy.

Better bring it lvenger.

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#15 Posted by sophia89 (19802 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger

O.K lets get this baby started

what is the void?

the void is the polar opposite of sentry,for every life sentry saves,the void must kill the exact amount,anyone the sentry loves,the void hates.he is the yang to sentry's yin

Powers and abilities:

  • molecule manipulation(their main power,every other power comes from this)
  • super strength(sentry/void is one of the strongest beings in marvel(not counting abstracts))
  • super speed(they are extremely fast)
  • high reaction time(able to react to fast objects)
  • telepathy immunity(nothing go in there without their permission)
  • telepathy(they are the most powerful telepath on Earth)
  • immortality(they can't die)
  • healing factor(they heal at insane levels)
  • energy projection(very high lvl EP)
  • durability(he is extremely durable)

now I normally don't go for the easy win(i try to make the match exciting),but lvenger is too good to hold even an inch back against him.

so my question to lvenger is how will Silver Surfer resist being ripped apart on a molecular lvl?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1-2) kills Loki on a molecular lvl. 3-4) kills Owen Reece(aka molecule man)on a molecular lvl.

and how will he hurt,let alone kill the void/sentry,a being that solo stomped nearly every hero(and villains)on Earth?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

1) just via shape shifting he nearly kills the new avengers+f4+x-men+inhumans-shield+SS dr strange+namor.

2-3) nearly killing every asgardien+every avengers team.

4) once again nearly killing every hero and villain on earth.

5) the void just easily containing the avengers.

=======================================================================================================

i know this short but this is just an opener,your turn @lvenger

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#16 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15182 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by sophia89 (19802 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Edited by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be good™

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#19 Posted by green_skaar (11879 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Edited by oceanmaster21 (15182 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by sophia89 (19802 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

This should be good™

lol you finally trademarked it huh?

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#22 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

@sophia89 I trademarked it quite some time ago

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#23 Posted by sophia89 (19802 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@sophia89: Not too bad Sophia. Now it's my turn to reply by outlining my character in this debate. Someone who I've felt neither The Sentry nor Void has any real chance of beating despite some who think otherwise. Perhaps you'll see why that's the case in this debate. So here's my introduction of The Silver Surfer

Round 1

No Caption Provided

He was once merely Norrin Radd, a denizen of the planet Zenn-La. A peaceful and tranquil society. But when the planet devourer Galactus arrived to consume his homeworld, Norrin offered himself in servitude to Galactus. In exchange for sparing Zenn-La, he would find the planets Galactus needed for nourishment. Galactus accepted this bargain and granted Norrin a fraction of his vast Power Cosmic to imbue a plethora of powers into his new Herald. Now with a silver skin and surfboard for transportation, Norrin Radd soars the universe as The Silver Surfer.

That's the origin out the way so let's move onto your arguments:

Powers and abilities:

  • molecule manipulation(their main power,every other power comes from this)
  • super strength(sentry/void is one of the strongest beings in marvel(not counting abstracts))
  • super speed(they are extremely fast)
  • high reaction time(able to react to fast objects)
  • telepathy immunity(nothing go in there without their permission)
  • telepathy(they are the most powerful telepath on Earth)
  • immortality(they can't die)
  • healing factor(they heal at insane levels)
  • energy projection(very high lvl EP)
  • durability(he is extremely durable)

Normally I don't list powers out myself but since you've chosen to do so, I'll list what The Surfer can do just to see how outmatched The Void is in power and versatility here:

  • Energy Absorption, Manipulation and Projection (can do so on almost every kind of energy in the universe)
  • Matter and Molecular Manipulation
  • Quantifiable Superhuman Speed and Reflexes (his speed has been captured on panel so we know how fast he can move. This does not apply to Sentry/Void)
  • Superhuman Durability (He's way more durable than Sentry)
  • Regeneration (Too sad for you)
  • Class 100+ Superhuman Strength (and can amp himself with The Power Cosmic to go even further)
  • Cosmic Senses
  • Force Field Creation
  • Telepathy
  • Telekinesis
  • Intangibility

These are amongst others but if your argument was "List out how many powers Void has" I think I'm already ahead of you in this part of your argument. This is but a taste of the power and versatility Surfer brings to play here:

so my question to lvenger is how will Silver Surfer resist being ripped apart on a molecular lvl?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1-2) kills Loki on a molecular lvl. 3-4) kills Owen Reece(aka molecule man)on a molecular lvl.

Already, you've made a gross miscalculation and incorrectly estimated the Surfer's resistance to Surfer's attacks. For starters, I'll make note of one possible regeneration feat for Loki and then move onto debunking your faulty Owen Reece scan. Loki has some decent regenerative powers of his own. Here he basically picks up his head and puts it back on his body after Balder cuts it off

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But I won't pursue the argument that Void is incapable of incinerating Loki with his molecular manipulation. What I will contest very strongly however is the inconsistent, faulty and low blow showing that is Sentry miraculously overpowering Owen Reece at his own game. It's preposterous to even think that scan is anywhere near reliable in my opinion. Firstly, this guy was once one of the most powerful beings in the entire frickin universe. He got retconned just like the Beyonder was retconned from being a mysterious cosmic being to a wayward Inhuman nowhere near as powerful as he was during the Secret War era. I'll contrast this visually with some showings of Owen's original power.

Here he stalemates The Pre Retcon Beyonder in a battle where "every creature on every planet in every dimension feels the multiversal tremors born of their fury."

No Caption Provided

Owen has also fired a blast that, according to the Pre Retcon Beyonder, was capable of slagging several billion dimensions

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And, most importantly, even when The Beyonder took control of every molecule on Earth, he was unable to take control of Owen's molecules because they were his own to control

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Owen then notices this molecular manipulation and negates the Beyonder's Earth wide Molecular control

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Next, I shall break down the fallacy where Sentry is somehow more powerful than Owen Reece in the aforementioned scan yet is unable to repair the damage done to a small town. A town Owen very casually wreaks havoc with even in his Post Retcon weakened state

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Given that this is what we see here, the even bigger fallacy is that Void somehow has more control over Owen's molecules than the vastly more powerful Pre Retcon Beyonder did. Yet Void cannot fix a small town with this supposedly superior power. In contrast, Owen was able to casually fix multiversal wide destruction that The Beyonder had created in a temper tantrum.

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With all this evidence and reasoning mounted against the one hax time Bendis decided to screw the rules and have Sentry defeat MM to show how powerful he'd become, it's clear that your last two scans can easily be discounted as PIS. I've spent far longer than expected debunking your best feat so I'd better show what the extent of Surfer's Matter and Molecular Manipulation is.

He's also capable of atomising enemies into itty bitty atoms like Void can do

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He can recreate his board from his own being so logically, that does mean he can do the same to himself. I'll back this up later though.

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He's capable of controlling all the molecules in his body to make himself look like a human

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Given this level of molecular control Surfer has over his own body, I think I've provided enough of a plausible defense to any notion that Surfer can be molecularly torn apart. Even assuming that he is, Surfer can easily regenerate himself

In this nifty scan, Surfer was basically everywhere around The Defenders in the snowfall. Then he reformed into a body again.

No Caption Provided

Not offensive enough for you? Then in showing number 2, Surfer gets blasted apart by Uni-Lord, a guy who ruled an entire universe with his godlike power but still regenerates whole again. Given how powerful Uni-Lord was, I'm fairly certain Void's molecular manipulations won't be hard to overcome.

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And here he restores himself from being sliced and diced into pieces by another cosmic being.

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Suffice to say, this should cover all my bases and nullify any so called threat Void's Molecular Manipulation poses. The Surfer's own Molecular and Matter Manipulation are a lot more consistent and clearer than Void's but I'll get into those on my next post. I'll end this part by turning the question around on you and asking how Void can hope to fully atomise Surfer and keep him from reforming?

and how will he hurt,let alone kill the void/sentry,a being that solo stomped nearly every hero(and villains)on Earth?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

1) just via shape shifting he nearly kills the new avengers+f4+x-men+inhumans-shield+SS dr strange+namor.

2-3) nearly killing every asgardien+every avengers team.

4) once again nearly killing every hero and villain on earth.

5) the void just easily containing the avengers.

Again, you overrate Void's capabilities based on a few showings. So he's a teambuster, good for him. That doesn't mean he stands any kind of a chance against the non Earthbound threat that is The Silver Surfer. And outside of your first scan, the only real threat and heavy hitter Void overpowers is Thor. And despite popular misconceptions about Thor, Surfer is also way above The Thunder God due to his superior Power Cosmic.

Apologies I don't have the previous scan but prior to this, Surfer had fired a warning cosmic energy blast at The Avengers and Thor says "Thy warning came close to slaying us all." Pretty big admission that Thor could have been fried by the Surfer's warning attack.

No Caption Provided

This next one comes from a post I made on this thread so forgive me for paraphrasing here. I've already expressed this point as best as I can.

Finally, we have a very good showing from The Thanos Imperative.

During that cosmic event, the Guardians of the Galaxy, the Annihaltors and Thanos and more went to the Cancerverse to stop its invasion of the 616 universe. There, they faced counterparts of the Avengers in a universe where there was no death and thus these Avengers were immortal. But some say these weren't a patch on their 616 counterparts. Well

Worldmind tells Richard Rider that the false Quasar is just as powerful as the original version

No Caption Provided

We also have Quasar facing Cancerverse Thor and commenting on how powerful he is. Heck the Cancerverse 'heroes' think the 616 heroes are weak and pathetic. And this is Quasar commenting on the power of Cancerverse Thor and he's shielded himself from an assault from Professor Hulk, Thing and Hercules at the same time.

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In relation to Silver Surfer, he fights the Revengers at one point, including Cancerverse Thor and watch what happens

No Caption Provided

Finally, I'll cite the brief brawl between Silver Surfer and Beta Ray Bill. This was during BRB's mini series when he was on a crusade against Galactus for murdering his people's home planet. So you can imagine Bill is fighting with much less restraint here. Surfer at first tries to talk to him but when reason fails, he pummels Bill into submission. Given that Beta Ray Bill is Thor's equal in every way and has even been said to be more powerful than him at times, this clearly shows that Surfer can hand it to the big boys of Marvel Earth just as easily as Void can.

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Since most of the other characters in your scans are mostly street level to mid tier, Thor is the only one who's the real threat in your feats thus far. And I could rattle off lists of cosmic beings, gods and Herald level beings Surfer has faced time and again. But I'll finish up my post by going into a little of how Surfer can harm Void. And I believe he could do so very easily based on the evidence of Surfer's showings. The main way he can bring the pain to Sentry is through his Cosmic Energy Blasts.

Surfer's Energy Blasts are more than enough to casually nuke an enemy. And if I recall correctly from the Superman and Hulk vs Sentry and Goku CAV I participated in, Sentry has been rattled by nukes before.

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He's also easily obliterated a ship with his one of his Cosmic Bolts.

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The ship doesn't look so big in that shot though does it? Well allow me to give you a full perspective with this scan that states the ship dwarfed the size of Planet Earth itself.

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And Surfer has proved capable of obliterating a Thanosii clone. Though it's much less powerful than the real deal, I would like to point out that a Thanosii clone was capable of overpowering Thor right after he'd beaten Mangog to boot.

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And I'm afraid this is only the beginning. There's so much more to Surfer's abilities that I have yet to touch on which should support my argument that he's more than capable of obliterating Void. Unless you can defend against Surfer's vastly superior energy projection, then one obvious avenue for Surfer to win is via blasting Void into oblivion.

Your move Sophia.

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#25 Edited by Sebast_Allen (2728 posts) - - Show Bio

DIS GON BE GUD

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#26 Posted by WarBlade539 (6217 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn. Tag me please

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#27 Posted by ZeroPlus (2526 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by Killemall (18972 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag. Me.

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#30 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: I was gonna tag you anyway given your knowledge of both characters but this is a nice reminder. Thanks for the issue reference for one of my scans btw.

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#31 Posted by Killemall (18972 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: No worries, best of luck with the CaV. You can tag me once you guys are done , i'll be interested to read this.

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#32 Posted by Spiderman1997 (2349 posts) - - Show Bio

And I quote Joker fron Assault on Arkahm'' this is going to be a very big bang!''

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#33 Posted by Kingant27 (16662 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for voting please

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#34 Posted by Thedailybagel (12572 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for voting please :)

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#35 Posted by sophia89 (19802 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@sophia89: Not too bad Sophia. Now it's my turn to reply by outlining my character in this debate. Someone who I've felt neither The Sentry nor Void has any real chance of beating despite some who think otherwise. Perhaps you'll see why that's the case in this debate. So here's my introduction of The Silver Surfer

thank you.

Round 1

No Caption Provided

He was once merely Norrin Radd, a denizen of the planet Zenn-La. A peaceful and tranquil society. But when the planet devourer Galactus arrived to consume his homeworld, Norrin offered himself in servitude to Galactus. In exchange for sparing Zenn-La, he would find the planets Galactus needed for nourishment. Galactus accepted this bargain and granted Norrin a fraction of his vast Power Cosmic to imbue a plethora of powers into his new Herald. Now with a silver skin and surfboard for transportation, Norrin Radd soars the universe as The Silver Surfer.

That's the origin out the way so let's move onto your arguments:

Powers and abilities:

  • molecule manipulation(their main power,every other power comes from this)
  • super strength(sentry/void is one of the strongest beings in marvel(not counting abstracts))
  • super speed(they are extremely fast)
  • high reaction time(able to react to fast objects)
  • telepathy immunity(nothing go in there without their permission)
  • telepathy(they are the most powerful telepath on Earth)
  • immortality(they can't die)
  • healing factor(they heal at insane levels)
  • energy projection(very high lvl EP)
  • durability(he is extremely durable)

Normally I don't list powers out myself but since you've chosen to do so, I'll list what The Surfer can do just to see how outmatched The Void is in power and versatility here:

  • Energy Absorption, Manipulation and Projection (can do so on almost every kind of energy in the universe)
  • Matter and Molecular Manipulation
  • Quantifiable Superhuman Speed and Reflexes (his speed has been captured on panel so we know how fast he can move. This does not apply to Sentry/Void)
  • Superhuman Durability (He's way more durable than Sentry)
  • Regeneration (Too sad for you)
  • Class 100+ Superhuman Strength (and can amp himself with The Power Cosmic to go even further)
  • Cosmic Senses
  • Force Field Creation
  • Telepathy
  • Telekinesis
  • Intangibility

These are amongst others but if your argument was "List out how many powers Void has" I think I'm already ahead of you in this part of your argument. This is but a taste of the power and versatility Surfer brings to play here:

no.void have more powers than i listed,and i am sure surfer has more than the ones you listed.i was simply stating ones that will i will most likely use in this cav.

so my question to lvenger is how will Silver Surfer resist being ripped apart on a molecular lvl?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1-2) kills Loki on a molecular lvl. 3-4) kills Owen Reece(aka molecule man)on a molecular lvl.

Already, you've made a gross miscalculation and incorrectly estimated the Surfer's resistance to Surfer's attacks. For starters, I'll make note of one possible regeneration feat for Loki and then move onto debunking your faulty Owen Reece scan. Loki has some decent regenerative powers of his own. Here he basically picks up his head and puts it back on his body after Balder cuts it off

No Caption Provided

surviving a beheading is not the same as being destroyed on a molecular lvl.

deadpool can survive a beheading,can he survive silver silver's most powerful attack?

the answer is no.same here just because he survived a beheading means he can survive being destroyed on a molecular lvl.

But I won't pursue the argument that Void is incapable of incinerating Loki with his molecular manipulation. What I will contest very strongly however is the inconsistent, faulty and low blow showing that is Sentry miraculously overpowering Owen Reece at his own game. It's preposterous to even think that scan is anywhere near reliable in my opinion. Firstly, this guy was once one of the most powerful beings in the entire frickin universe. He got retconned just like the Beyonder was retconned from being a mysterious cosmic being to a wayward Inhuman nowhere near as powerful as he was during the Secret War era. I'll contrast this visually with some showings of Owen's original power.

Here he stalemates The Pre Retcon Beyonder in a battle where "every creature on every planet in every dimension feels the multiversal tremors born of their fury."

No Caption Provided

Owen has also fired a blast that, according to the Pre Retcon Beyonder, was capable of slagging several billion dimensions

No Caption Provided

And, most importantly, even when The Beyonder took control of every molecule on Earth, he was unable to take control of Owen's molecules because they were his own to control

No Caption Provided

Owen then notices this molecular manipulation and negates the Beyonder's Earth wide Molecular control

No Caption Provided

ok you showed molecule man as extremely powerful being.But was he always at these power lvls.

when he first started he needed a wand to control molecules,he also couldn't control organic molecules.

one time(secret wars)he was even nearly killed by wolverine.

it wasn't until Dr Doom(with pre retconned beyonder's power)showed him what he can do,that he became on that lvl.(and it wasn't immediately either,he practiced reviving stars,etc to reach that lvl)

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1) using the wand i mentioned to control the zinc molecules in the news paper to force invisible girl visible. 2-3) wolverine badly injuring(and nearly killing)molecule man. 4) Dr doom shows MM the secrets of the universe,letting owen reach the levels you posted.

Now what is the point of me posting all of that.its simple,i showed it took years for owen to reach that lvl(he wasn't immediately at that lvl)

(also btw beyonder wasn't retconned to just an inhuman,he was a cosmic cube being(a being above galactus))

Next, I shall break down the fallacy where Sentry is somehow more powerful than Owen Reece in the aforementioned scan yet is unable to repair the damage done to a small town. A town Owen very casually wreaks havoc with even in his Post Retcon weakened state

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Given that this is what we see here, the even bigger fallacy is that Void somehow has more control over Owen's molecules than the vastly more powerful Pre Retcon Beyonder did. Yet Void cannot fix a small town with this supposedly superior power. In contrast, Owen was able to casually fix multiversal wide destruction that The Beyonder had created in a temper tantrum.

the void had just gotten this power,much like i showed with owen,he wasn't on the same lvls.

true he had the raw power but not the experience to use it.

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With all this evidence and reasoning mounted against the one hax time Bendis decided to screw the rules and have Sentry defeat MM to show how powerful he'd become, it's clear that your last two scans can easily be discounted as PIS. I've spent far longer than expected debunking your best feat so I'd better show what the extent of Surfer's Matter and Molecular Manipulation is.

o.k how about i post scans of sentry owning terrax a herald of galactus(you know the same guy that SS struggles to beat(i know SS is stronger,but he still can't easily beat terrax),owning Thor,owning doom,and containing a cosmic cube with his bare hand)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

as you can see sentry is easily owning characters that either beat SS or made him struggle for the win.

you can't just say on a feat you don't like is pis.

He's also capable of atomising enemies into itty bitty atoms like Void can do

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He can recreate his board from his own being so logically, that does mean he can do the same to himself. I'll back this up later though.

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He's capable of controlling all the molecules in his body to make himself look like a human

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Given this level of molecular control Surfer has over his own body, I think I've provided enough of a plausible defense to any notion that Surfer can be molecularly torn apart. Even assuming that he is, Surfer can easily regenerate himself

neat,except that didn't save him from this

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

1-2) molecule man(back when he was still using the wand,no where near the beyonder yet)easily beat SS. 3) destroys his surf board.

so yeah that wont save him from a being with superior molecule manipulation.

In this nifty scan, Surfer was basically everywhere around The Defenders in the snowfall. Then he reformed into a body again.

No Caption Provided

Not offensive enough for you? Then in showing number 2, Surfer gets blasted apart by Uni-Lord, a guy who ruled an entire universe with his godlike power but still regenerates whole again. Given how powerful Uni-Lord was, I'm fairly certain Void's molecular manipulations won't be hard to overcome.

No Caption Provided

And here he restores himself from being sliced and diced into pieces by another cosmic being.

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Suffice to say, this should cover all my bases and nullify any so called threat Void's Molecular Manipulation poses. The Surfer's own Molecular and Matter Manipulation are a lot more consistent and clearer than Void's but I'll get into those on my next post. I'll end this part by turning the question around on you and asking how Void can hope to fully atomise Surfer and keep him from reforming?

except owen already showed a being with superior molecule manipulation can beat him,and sentry/void beat post retcon owen who is a cosmic cube being.

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1) Dr doom who had absorbed galactus,gets beat with the cosmic cube. 2-5) just thought i should show just how powerful owen was even after the retcon.

and how will he hurt,let alone kill the void/sentry,a being that solo stomped nearly every hero(and villains)on Earth?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

1) just via shape shifting he nearly kills the new avengers+f4+x-men+inhumans-shield+SS dr strange+namor.

2-3) nearly killing every asgardien+every avengers team.

4) once again nearly killing every hero and villain on earth.

5) the void just easily containing the avengers.

Again, you overrate Void's capabilities based on a few showings. So he's a teambuster, good for him. That doesn't mean he stands any kind of a chance against the non Earthbound threat that is The Silver Surfer. And outside of your first scan, the only real threat and heavy hitter Void overpowers is Thor. And despite popular misconceptions about Thor, Surfer is also way above The Thunder God due to his superior Power Cosmic.

you can see SS dr strange in there,and you can see black bolt in there too,also thor is superior or at-least equal to SS,seeing he either beats him or stalemates him every time they fight.

took blast from celestials,hurt galactus(galactus was hungry but still),etc.

but for now lets not derail the cav on who is more powerful Thor or SS

Apologies I don't have the previous scan but prior to this, Surfer had fired a warning cosmic energy blast at The Avengers and Thor says "Thy warning came close to slaying us all." Pretty big admission that Thor could have been fried by the Surfer's warning attack.

thor has said before in order not to make his friends feel in-competent he holds back,also by surfer's own admission Thor was holding back against him(while surfer was amped by loki),and he should avoid making thor his enemy

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

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This next one comes from a post I made on this thread so forgive me for paraphrasing here. I've already expressed this point as best as I can.

Finally, we have a very good showing from The Thanos Imperative.

During that cosmic event, the Guardians of the Galaxy, the Annihaltors and Thanos and more went to the Cancerverse to stop its invasion of the 616 universe. There, they faced counterparts of the Avengers in a universe where there was no death and thus these Avengers were immortal. But some say these weren't a patch on their 616 counterparts. Well

Worldmind tells Richard Rider that the false Quasar is just as powerful as the original version

No Caption Provided

We also have Quasar facing Cancerverse Thor and commenting on how powerful he is. Heck the Cancerverse 'heroes' think the 616 heroes are weak and pathetic. And this is Quasar commenting on the power of Cancerverse Thor and he's shielded himself from an assault from Professor Hulk, Thing and Hercules at the same time.

No Caption Provided

In relation to Silver Surfer, he fights the Revengers at one point, including Cancerverse Thor and watch what happens

No Caption Provided

Finally, I'll cite the brief brawl between Silver Surfer and Beta Ray Bill. This was during BRB's mini series when he was on a crusade against Galactus for murdering his people's home planet. So you can imagine Bill is fighting with much less restraint here. Surfer at first tries to talk to him but when reason fails, he pummels Bill into submission. Given that Beta Ray Bill is Thor's equal in every way and has even been said to be more powerful than him at times, this clearly shows that Surfer can hand it to the big boys of Marvel Earth just as easily as Void can.

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Since most of the other characters in your scans are mostly street level to mid tier, Thor is the only one who's the real threat in your feats thus far. And I could rattle off lists of cosmic beings, gods and Herald level beings Surfer has faced time and again. But I'll finish up my post by going into a little of how Surfer can harm Void. And I believe he could do so very easily based on the evidence of Surfer's showings. The main way he can bring the pain to Sentry is through his Cosmic Energy Blasts.

o.k street to mid tier is low-balling it beyond extreme.

black bolt was said to be second to sentry,and in infinity he hurt thanos(something SS couldn't do).SS dr strange the guy that took on more powerful foes than SS can even imagine.Dr doom who already beat SS,and thanos said he respects him.Loki,terrax,etc all of these guys are way more powerful than mid tiers.

Surfer's Energy Blasts are more than enough to casually nuke an enemy. And if I recall correctly from the Superman and Hulk vs Sentry and Goku CAV I participated in, Sentry has been rattled by nukes before.

no offence to nighthunder,but like he said he wasn't familiar with sentry and this was his first time using him.

sentry wasn't rattled by the nuke,he barley had any scratches,he also attempted to kill himself by flying into the sun and didn't work,so SS's attacks wont damage him,and if they did he will heal instantly.

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He's also easily obliterated a ship with his one of his Cosmic Bolts.

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The ship doesn't look so big in that shot though does it? Well allow me to give you a full perspective with this scan that states the ship dwarfed the size of Planet Earth itself.

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And Surfer has proved capable of obliterating a Thanosii clone. Though it's much less powerful than the real deal, I would like to point out that a Thanosii clone was capable of overpowering Thor right after he'd beaten Mangog to boot.

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And I'm afraid this is only the beginning. There's so much more to Surfer's abilities that I have yet to touch on which should support my argument that he's more than capable of obliterating Void. Unless you can defend against Surfer's vastly superior energy projection, then one obvious avenue for Surfer to win is via blasting Void into oblivion.

Your move Sophia.

great post,though i debunked most of it(sorry)

now as i showed sentry can effect SS's molecules(look on how MM beat SS,i will post the scans again below),can the same be said of SS.

MM said he never felt molecules like sentry,so can SS control these molecules.

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1) MM traps SS,the avengers later come to help him. 2) MM uses his power to destroy SS's board. 3) MM says he never tasted(experienced)molecules like sentry before. 4) sentry/void put themselves back from molecules. 5) death seed sentry tells thor that he has been re-birthing(that was before he given the death seed) from atoms.

your turn.

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#37 Edited by spectre4life (165 posts) - - Show Bio

this is an extremely good cav

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#38 Posted by cooljammy18 (2310 posts) - - Show Bio

Couldn't of had a better user to represent SS. Ivenger got this. :)

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#39 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@sophia89: All right, time for Round 2.

Round 2

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deadpool can survive a beheading,can he survive silver silver's most powerful attack?

the answer is no.same here just because he survived a beheading means he can survive being destroyed on a molecular lvl.

The thing is, I have shown Surfer either possessing total control over the silver skin on his body or regenerating from far worse attacks than The Void has been shown capable of dishing out. Unless you can provide a more reliable instance on the Molecule Man one (which I shall debunk and deconstruct yet again below) your main argument of Void's molecular manipulation is going out the window based on how unreliable it is.

ok you showed molecule man as extremely powerful being.But was he always at these power lvls.

when he first started he needed a wand to control molecules,he also couldn't control organic molecules.

one time(secret wars)he was even nearly killed by wolverine.

it wasn't until Dr Doom(with pre retconned beyonder's power)showed him what he can do,that he became on that lvl.(and it wasn't immediately either,he practiced reviving stars,etc to reach that lvl)

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1) using the wand i mentioned to control the zinc molecules in the news paper to force invisible girl visible. 2-3) wolverine badly injuring(and nearly killing)molecule man. 4) Dr doom shows MM the secrets of the universe,letting owen reach the levels you posted.

Now what is the point of me posting all of that.its simple,i showed it took years for owen to reach that lvl(he wasn't immediately at that lvl)

(also btw beyonder wasn't retconned to just an inhuman,he was a cosmic cube being(a being above galactus))

Well this is actually credible that you've done some research on Molecule Man which is nice. Having said this, you don't seem to have grasped the inherent flaw with your Void>MM argument. It's true that MM wasn't as powerful as he once was as he needed the wand to control the molecules and he was mortal so Wolverine was capable of injuring him. And you've found the correct image of Doom with Beyonder's power opening MM's mind up to his full potential. But don't you see how that plays exactly into what I'm saying more than it does with your arguments? Even if it took him a while, once Owen's mind was opened, he was consistently portrayed at an insanely high level of power, on a level with cosmic abstract beings like Beyonder and Eternity. He performed universal to multiversal feats with the greatest of ease and did so regularly throughout his character's history.

Yet after he was retconned into being a Cosmic Cube being, his showings drastically decreased in power. And you expect me to accept your feat that Void is somehow capable of overpowering a being that powerful in the molecular manipulation game? Sorry but you haven't demonstrated why your showing is legitimate in the slightest. It's a gross double standard to try and accept The Molecule Man as once being top of the Marvel pecking board yet also propose that Void is capable of overpowering him. It's a major low showing for MM once he was weakened Post Retcon rather than a high showing for Void. And that's because it doesn't match up with the rest of MM's showings. For him to show universal-multiversal power whilst getting taken out by Void is a huge mismatch in terms of his feats. Thus, it's crystal clear that your main argument, Void obliterating MM with molecular manipulation, cannot be taken seriously because it incorporates a great deal of PIS into MM performing so badly against a foe that shouldn't even be on his radar and because the writer wrote him vastly weaker than the levels he was portrayed at.

And Beyonder was retconned again into being an Inhuman. I know this isn't relevant but given the art style of my image mimicking recent comic art coupled with how many wiki entries agree with me, I'd say you're still wrong about Beyonder being a Cosmic Cube being. It's a stupid retcon I think but it's still the case.

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o.k how about i post scans of sentry owning terrax a herald of galactus(you know the same guy that SS struggles to beat(i know SS is stronger,but he still can't easily beat terrax)

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Ah I figured you'd go for the Terrax card. Though it's not a bad showing for Sentry, once you break down what has happened to Terrax in the past along with how the Surfer has dealt with him, I think you'll easily see why Sentry owning Terrax isn't as great as you'd like it to be.

So here is Surfer's first fight with Terrax and on first glance, you'd probably like to fit it into your argument

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You can see Surfer is having a hard time beating Terrax so at this point, you'd jump for joy and say "This proves Void>Surfer." Unfortunately for you, that's not the case. I've included this fight for a reason. After this fight, Terrax became a disembodied sentient energy only able to take form when connected to the ground. Later on, he was able to acquire a human host that allowed him to walk the Earth without having to worry about dis-corporation. However, Terrax was still hindered as the host was quite limited in its power. So to put things in Layman's terms, this is why Terrax is one of the weaker heralds and has earned the nickname 'Jobberax' on the battle forums. And here's the scan which proves it.

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After his first fight with Surfer, Terrax's feats went on a downward spiral. He had trouble with young gun teams like The New Warriors, he got beaten up by this random alien girl (the scans for which I saw in Killemall and Frozen's CAV) and he was basically a shadow of his former self. To reiterate, Terrax was much less powerful following his battle with Surfer than when he had been a Herald of Galactus, coincidentally which is what he had been when he fought Surfer, thus explaining why Surfer had a hard time beating him. Later on, Surfer was called up to deal with Terrax and casually imprisoned him on an alien planet.

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So it seems Sentry isn't the only one who can easily deal with the jobber that is Terrax. And that's not going into the more powerful Heralds and beings Surfer has handled in his time.

owning Thor

Did you actually read the part of my post where I give 3 concrete examples of Surfer either endangering, shrugging off or overpowering Thor level beings? Or did you ignore that as well? Those showings assuredly prove that Surfer can own Thor just as easily as Sentry/Void can. There's no denying the difference in power between Surfer and Thor, just as there is a difference in power between Surfer and Void.

owning doom

Owning a non prepared Doom who, whilst still a threat, hasn't had the time to gather his resources. The reason Doom punks Surfer a lot of the time is because he has the prep time and resources to create a Power Draining machine that removes Surfer's Power Cosmic and transfers it to Doom. This did not happen here in this fight. And if you think Doom's forcefields being breached will mean Sentry can do the same to Surfer's forcefields, you have another thing coming.

Surfer's Forcefields have withstood a blast from Mjolnir whilst Thor was in possession of the infinite might of the Power Gem

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They've withstood the assault of a raging Bannerless Hulk

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And he's created a forcefield protecting an island from multiple nuclear missiles. And don't presume that the Surfer can be taken out so easily as he is here. He was weakened I believe.

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Thus, Void will have trouble even getting through to Surfer in the first place with his attacks.

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1-2) molecule man(back when he was still using the wand,no where near the beyonder yet)easily beat SS. 3) destroys his surf board.

so yeah that wont save him from a being with superior molecule manipulation.

And I also guessed you'd cite this instance too. Your major problem here is in drastically assuming that just because a weaker MM overpowered Surfer with his molecular manipulation, that Void can do the same because he did so to a more powerful MM. This doesn't take into account how old the first two scans are in relation to these respective characters' powers and abilities. Just as MM got more powerful over time, so too did the Surfer. The Power Cosmic now has a plethora of abilities that the Surfer can use at will and a lot of these abilities were not part of Surfer's power set at the time that Surfer faced MM here. Henceforth, it is an extreme assumption to make that Void will be able to overpower Surfer in molecular manipulation when you take all his feats into account.

And Surfer can reform his board at will

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So yeah that's taken apart what little worth this point had in the first place.

except owen already showed a being with superior molecule manipulation can beat him,and sentry/void beat post retcon owen who is a cosmic cube being.

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1) Dr doom who had absorbed galactus,gets beat with the cosmic cube. 2-5) just thought i should show just how powerful owen was even after the retcon.

These scans are presented in a disjointed way and I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Still, I've dealt with Owen's low showing against Void and why it's completely illegitimate evidence so it's fair that I should respond with what Surfer can do with his molecular manipulation

Surfer is capable of molecularly melding foes to his board like he did to Ravenous here. What's stopping him from bonding Void to his board and then blasting away or using another one of his techniques to defeat Void?

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Surfer has also shown a proficiency with molecular manipulation that he can trap foes within his own board. There's a high chance he can do the same to Void. And Void doesn't have the on panel showings of experience with molecular manipulation to prove he can escape from there.

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Furthermore, he's taken control of an enemy's clothing or armour to shift to his will. He could just as easily play Void at his own molecular manipulation game.

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So unless you have better evidence of Void's molecular manipulation outside of "He beat Owen, it's tots legit!" that forgoes your main trump card in this debate as Surfer has a consistently good track record of molecular manipulation too. And morals are off here so he's more than likely to use it in lethal and deadly ways against Bob.

you can see SS dr strange in there,and you can see black bolt in there too,also thor is superior or at-least equal to SS,seeing he either beats him or stalemates him every time they fight.

took blast from celestials,hurt galactus(galactus was hungry but still),etc.

but for now lets not derail the cav on who is more powerful Thor or SS

Given that I've shown Surfer nearly frying Thor with a warning shot, brushing off an alternate but evil, morals off, logically possible equal in power like he was nothing and humiliating Beta Ray Bill, Thor's equal in every way, I fail to see how your claim that Thor is at least equal or superior to Surfer has any tangible weight to it. But fine, agree to disagree, it isn't wholly relevant I suppose.

thor has said before in order not to make his friends feel in-competent he holds back,also by surfer's own admission Thor was holding back against him(while surfer was amped by loki),and he should avoid making thor his enemy

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The second scan is misused entirely out of context. It again relates to how characters don't have the same power levels as they do now. If we were talking Classic Thor vs Classic Surfer, I'd give Thor the edge. But after that fight, as Surfer has gained more and more appearances and feats, it's abundantly clear that he surpasses Thor in power and versatility without needing an amp. Your poor use of their first fight ignores the changes in power that both characters have gone through. Surfer has become more powerful whereas Thor has kinda gotten weaker.

o.k street to mid tier is low-balling it beyond extreme.

black bolt was said to be second to sentry,and in infinity he hurt thanos(something SS couldn't do).SS dr strange the guy that took on more powerful foes than SS can even imagine.Dr doom who already beat SS,and thanos said he respects him.Loki,terrax,etc all of these guys are way more powerful than mid tiers.

It's all well and good to say I'm lowballing but you haven't actually done any sort of good job at showing exactly how I've lowballed in the slightest. It was only a statement that Black Bolt is second to Sentry and feats>statements. I could name loads of being more powerful than Black Bolt; Thor, Nate Grey, Juggernaut, World War Hulk, the list goes on. Their feats surpass the statement that Black Bolt is second to Sentry. As for BB hurting Thanos, you fail to remember that it took several shouts/screams from Bolt to actually hurt Thanos. And he was right in his face too. A useful bit of context that nullifies your faulty logic to make Surfer seem weaker than he actually is.

The first scan was only a short fight and did not occur for very long. Therefore, it is sheer off panel evidence that does not hold up anywhere near as strong a piece of evidence you'd like it to be. I distinctly recall that fight ending sooner than anticipated. Thus, you have done nothing to even remotely prove that the heroes Void fought in the other 3 scans from Siege were not mostly comprised of street levellers to mid tiers. It's obvious that I'm doing anything but lowballing here. I'm pointing out that the heroes Void fought in Siege were nowhere near the calibre you mistakenly think they are.

no offence to nighthunder,but like he said he wasn't familiar with sentry and this was his first time using him.

sentry wasn't rattled by the nuke,he barley had any scratches,he also attempted to kill himself by flying into the sun and didn't work,so SS's attacks wont damage him,and if they did he will heal instantly.

True, he wasn't that strong debating with Sentry, you're correct there. But unfortunately I've rechecked the thread and seen obvious signs of damage and physical effects that the nukes had on Sentry. So that's another thing you're incorrect on.

Adding to that incorrect list is the fact that Void was disintegrated in the sun.

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In contrast, let's see how Surfer handles a sunbathe

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Oh look, his skin doesn't even tingle from 10,000 degree heat. I guess we can add durability to the factors that Surfer has an edge in.

great post,though i debunked most of it(sorry)

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Although this post has gone on long enough, I'll reiterate the sheer energy manipulation advantage Surfer has in this fight and how Void will go down to this raw power Surfer can use in battle

He's casually disabled spaceships with his Power Blasts

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He's effortlessly broken free of Quasar's construct (and Quasar's construct has withstood an assault from Professor Hulk, Thing and Hercules at the same time.

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And should Void fire any energy attacks Surfer's way, all he'll be doing is giving Surfer more firepower to use himself (as seen here when he absorbs the energy blasts from the ships of The Collective, a race made up of aliens whose planets have been destroyed by Galactus and have focused their resources on destroying him and his Heralds.

This level of Cosmic firepower is bound to give Void trouble throughout the fight. He'll be blasted apart again and again until he's had enough of being target practice for Surfer. However, if you don't think that will work, I already have another strategy in mind. Surfer can just manipulate loads of energy into the Void, thus overloading him with power forcing him to burst apart.

He's channelled the energy of a giant red star before with ease

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And Surfer has focused billions of Terrawatts of power in this showing

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To show the science behind this feat, one Terrawatt is the energy within the average lightning bolt

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And since Surfer has morals off and no reason to hold this back, he could overload Sentry with the equivalent power of, say, 1 billion lightning bolts all at once. This is a trick that has worked on Sentry before

The original Human Torch overloaded his body in seconds with more energy than he could handle. Surfer should do so with even greater ease.

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And before you say "This won't work on Void" how else does he get beaten by Sentry? A trip to the Sun cooks him just fine and Surfer can channel the power of a star with ease.

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So it stands to reason Surfer can overload him again.

In Summary

  • Void's main trump card, molecular manipulation, is based on a faulty representation of Molecule Man's power when he has consistently shown feats that would enable him to annihilate Surfer and Void at the same time with ease. Therefore, this is PIS evidence that cannot be used as a reliable presentation of Void's power.
  • Surfer has total control over his body, his board and has regenerated from much worse attacks so Void doesn't have a hope of destroying him.
  • Surfer has shown the best ways of defeating Void so far, either by obliterating him with his superior energy output or by overloading him with too much energy for him to handle.
  • There are still other ways for Surfer to win that I have yet to show whereas you haven't provided one reliable way for Surfer to be beaten by Void.
  • All in all, anything Void can do, Surfer can counter, surpass and then use of the many powers he has to defeat Void.

Ball's in your court now.

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#40 Posted by sophia89 (19802 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: sorry didn't get tagged,just saw this now when i was checking on it.

i will read it,and post ASAP.

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#41 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@sophia89: It's happened to my too with my notifications.

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#43 Edited by sophia89 (19802 posts) - - Show Bio

To avoid confusion,i will type my replies in header 3

Like so

@lvenger said:

@sophia89: All right, time for Round 2.

Round 2

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deadpool can survive a beheading,can he survive silver silver's most powerful attack?

the answer is no.same here just because he survived a beheading means he can survive being destroyed on a molecular lvl.

The thing is, I have shown Surfer either possessing total control over the silver skin on his body or regenerating from far worse attacks than The Void has been shown capable of dishing out. Unless you can provide a more reliable instance on the Molecule Man one (which I shall debunk and deconstruct yet again below) your main argument of Void's molecular manipulation is going out the window based on how unreliable it is.

I was referring to your statement of Loki's regenerative skills.

ok you showed molecule man as extremely powerful being.But was he always at these power lvls.

when he first started he needed a wand to control molecules,he also couldn't control organic molecules.

one time(secret wars)he was even nearly killed by wolverine.

it wasn't until Dr Doom(with pre retconned beyonder's power)showed him what he can do,that he became on that lvl.(and it wasn't immediately either,he practiced reviving stars,etc to reach that lvl)

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1) using the wand i mentioned to control the zinc molecules in the news paper to force invisible girl visible. 2-3) wolverine badly injuring(and nearly killing)molecule man. 4) Dr doom shows MM the secrets of the universe,letting owen reach the levels you posted.

Now what is the point of me posting all of that.its simple,i showed it took years for owen to reach that lvl(he wasn't immediately at that lvl)

(also btw beyonder wasn't retconned to just an inhuman,he was a cosmic cube being(a being above galactus))

Well this is actually credible that you've done some research on Molecule Man which is nice. Having said this, you don't seem to have grasped the inherent flaw with your Void>MM argument. It's true that MM wasn't as powerful as he once was as he needed the wand to control the molecules and he was mortal so Wolverine was capable of injuring him. And you've found the correct image of Doom with Beyonder's power opening MM's mind up to his full potential. But don't you see how that plays exactly into what I'm saying more than it does with your arguments? Even if it took him a while, once Owen's mind was opened, he was consistently portrayed at an insanely high level of power, on a level with cosmic abstract beings like Beyonder and Eternity. He performed universal to multiversal feats with the greatest of ease and did so regularly throughout his character's history.

but it wasn't till beyonder-doom opened his mind to the secrets of the universe did he accomplish this.Also it wasn't immediate it took him awhile to reach that lvl,otherwise he would have teleported everyone to earth in a second as beyonder did.

void-sentry didn't have the time to practice his capabilities,he got his new powers in dark avengers 12,and he was gone by dark avengers 16.that is only 4(3 considering he was not in 16).he obviously didn't have time to practice these powers,not to mention osborne had told him not to use it so it doesn't drive him mad.

now i know your counter will be that Owen had this level of power always.which is correct however i would to remind you of fantastic four #20(first appearance of MM)

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1) the watcher says that MM is a threat to the galaxy(and the watcher is not known to exaggerate). 2) reed explains that if a man can control molecules,he can do anything. 3) after reed tricked Owen into trying to rearrange organic molecules(statues given to him Alicia that were actually the f4)

MM could always control organic molecules he simply limited himself,yet when he attempted to control it without even knowing they were he knocked himself out.now how many issues,and years did it take MM to master his power?

sentry/void barely had it,they didn't attempt to master this power.

Yet after he was retconned into being a Cosmic Cube being, his showings drastically decreased in power. And you expect me to accept your feat that Void is somehow capable of overpowering a being that powerful in the molecular manipulation game? Sorry but you haven't demonstrated why your showing is legitimate in the slightest. It's a gross double standard to try and accept The Molecule Man as once being top of the Marvel pecking board yet also propose that Void is capable of overpowering him. It's a major low showing for MM once he was weakened Post Retcon rather than a high showing for Void. And that's because it doesn't match up with the rest of MM's showings. For him to show universal-multiversal power whilst getting taken out by Void is a huge mismatch in terms of his feats. Thus, it's crystal clear that your main argument, Void obliterating MM with molecular manipulation, cannot be taken seriously because it incorporates a great deal of PIS into MM performing so badly against a foe that shouldn't even be on his radar and because the writer wrote him vastly weaker than the levels he was portrayed at.

over here i will leave sentry/void's molecule manipulation powers,and point out how he was a threat to MM,a threat that would make MM put sentry on his radar.

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1-4) Sorcerer supreme dr strange says the return of void means the end of the universe,he also says he was o.k reading God's mind but sentry's mind is too scary,and to show more than just statements dr strange fails to contain sentry in a magical illusion(keep in mind ss dr strange did actually meet universal threat and he was the one that knocked out galactus(starving)when he was on earth). 5-8) absorbing man who absorbed thor before,nearly absorbed Odin,and absorbed a cosmic cube couldn't absorb sentry(notice how he says he never felt a rush like this before). 9) sentry containing a cosmic cube with his bare hand(not sure if you saw it in my last post or no)

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1-4) AM absorbs odin(although it should be noted that odin could have killed him at the start,but instead decided to trick loki into revealing himself). 5) AM absorbs a cosmic cube and pym says sentry can stop him(that was way before sentry killed MM). 6) Dr strange k.o'es galactus.

so i am pretty sure just these feats would have put him on MM's radar.

but that is not all,like i stated before sentry is a powerful telepath,how powerful?

enough to erase himself from the minds of everyone on earth and the moon(that includes franklin richards(who resisted a tp from celestials(will post scans if needed))juggernaut and magneto who are supposedly immune to tp,dr doom(will post scans if needed)and all the omega lvl mutants),enough to reshape earth into what he wants with his telepathic powers.

pretty sure that would have put him on MM's radar(i would post scans of his tp,but i feel like i am posting a ton of scans that might make it harder to load on others's computers,whoever if needed i will post scans of any thing i said)

And Beyonder was retconned again into being an Inhuman. I know this isn't relevant but given the art style of my image mimicking recent comic art coupled with how many wiki entries agree with me, I'd say you're still wrong about Beyonder being a Cosmic Cube being. It's a stupid retcon I think but it's still the case.

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molecule man wasn't retconned though,i don't have it on me,but killemall once asked bendis if MM was retconned,who replied no he wasn't retconned(but he wasn't in the best in his mind)

much like sentry/void owen's power depends on his mental state

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the first is molecule man,the second is sentry(way before he fought MM)

o.k how about i post scans of sentry owning terrax a herald of galactus(you know the same guy that SS struggles to beat(i know SS is stronger,but he still can't easily beat terrax)

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Ah I figured you'd go for the Terrax card. Though it's not a bad showing for Sentry, once you break down what has happened to Terrax in the past along with how the Surfer has dealt with him, I think you'll easily see why Sentry owning Terrax isn't as great as you'd like it to be.

So here is Surfer's first fight with Terrax and on first glance, you'd probably like to fit it into your argument

You can see Surfer is having a hard time beating Terrax so at this point, you'd jump for joy and say "This proves Void>Surfer." Unfortunately for you, that's not the case. I've included this fight for a reason. After this fight, Terrax became a disembodied sentient energy only able to take form when connected to the ground. Later on, he was able to acquire a human host that allowed him to walk the Earth without having to worry about dis-corporation. However, Terrax was still hindered as the host was quite limited in its power. So to put things in Layman's terms, this is why Terrax is one of the weaker heralds and has earned the nickname 'Jobberax' on the battle forums. And here's the scan which proves it.

After his first fight with Surfer, Terrax's feats went on a downward spiral. He had trouble with young gun teams like The New Warriors, he got beaten up by this random alien girl (the scans for which I saw in Killemall and Frozen's CAV) and he was basically a shadow of his former self. To reiterate, Terrax was much less powerful following his battle with Surfer than when he had been a Herald of Galactus, coincidentally which is what he had been when he fought Surfer, thus explaining why Surfer had a hard time beating him. Later on, Surfer was called up to deal with Terrax and casually imprisoned him on an alien planet.

So it seems Sentry isn't the only one who can easily deal with the jobber that is Terrax. And that's not going into the more powerful Heralds and beings Surfer has handled in his time.

i am going to pull a card out of your own defense,and say these scans are too old.

sentry didn't throw terrax off the planet he beat him with 1 hand then ordered him of the planet.

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1) sentry ordering terrax off the planet,not taking him to jail,which means terrax can leave the planet. 2-3) on an alien planet(so he left earth)and then destroys it. 4-5) nova tries to warn terrax that the phoenix is coming to eat the planet,and he needs terrax's help evacuating it(terrax on yet another planet,which he rules). 6-17) terrax beats silver surfer,hulk saves silver surfer's life and helps him,yet Silver surfer still loses(sentry without MM beat him with 1 hand,yet surfer lost while using 2 hands)

so what you showed is SS can bfr a de-powered terrax,unlike sentry who beat normal terrax.

owning Thor

Did you actually read the part of my post where I give 3 concrete examples of Surfer either endangering, shrugging off or overpowering Thor level beings? Or did you ignore that as well? Those showings assuredly prove that Surfer can own Thor just as easily as Sentry/Void can. There's no denying the difference in power between Surfer and Thor, just as there is a difference in power between Surfer and Void

and i can post more than 3 examples of thor surviving and killing being on skyfather lvl.But like i said before i don't want to derail this into who is more powerful thor or silver surfer.

whoever since you said SS can own thor like void did,let me post the last fight these guys had and see if SS did own thor

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doesn't look like he owned thor,it looked like they stalemated each other.

owning doom

Owning a non prepared Doom who, whilst still a threat, hasn't had the time to gather his resources. The reason Doom punks Surfer a lot of the time is because he has the prep time and resources to create a Power Draining machine that removes Surfer's Power Cosmic and transfers it to Doom. This did not happen here in this fight. And if you think Doom's forcefields being breached will mean Sentry can do the same to Surfer's forcefields, you have another thing coming.

Thus, Void will have trouble even getting through to Surfer in the first place with his attacks.

first i would like to address your force-field withstanding a bannerless hulk.it may seem powerful doing that,however hulk was extremely weak at that time,here is @ghostravage explaining it in another thread.

That being said, i want to address a point @fu-dog007 tried to exploit in this debate. He was mentioning Apocalypse's strength by referring to his fight against Bannerless Hulk in Incredible Hulk#456. He referred to the instance as if Apocalypse managed to go toe to toe with Savage Hulk legitimately, which is entirely wrong since it wasn't Savage Hulk and the fact Hulk was astonishingly weak and was around 4 issues from literally dying by "energy poisoning" when he fought Apocalypse... Im going in full detail about it.

During the Onslaught War, Hulk and Banner were forcibly separated from each other when Hulk busted Onslaught's armor, leaving a Bannerless Hulk in Earth-616 Universe and Banner on the Heroes Reborn Universe created by Franklin Richards.

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Bannerless Hulk served as the nexus of the 2 flowing energies of the universes. Because of this, Hulk was literally dying due to how intrusive and powerful those energies were and his powers were seriously fluctuating from that point as it is explained in Incredible Hulk #460...

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In this issue Hulk actually dies and revives almost instantly when Banner was reincorporated into Hulk's persona, this happened 4 issues after Apocalypse manhandled Hulk, in other words, Hulk was at the very bottom of his potential and his dead was nigh by the moment Apocalypse put his hands on him. Moreover, Hulk was trashed by a T-Rex previously to the encounter with Apocalypse, so this notion of him beating a full powered Hulk is flat out wrong for very obvious reasons.

so that is not as impressive as you make it sound.

now for the dr doom part.

first dr doom doesn't have to build a machine,he has one already build in

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second doom's shield aren't average force-fields:they withstood a hit from the infinity gauntlet,a blast from pr beyonder,blast from galactus,from an amped captain britain,recently it was even used to stop existar the celestial from entering earth(and it worked for a while too)

so going through dr doom's force-fields is not as easy as you make it sound.

now finally for the prep,true if you give doom prep he can come up with a plan and invent the needed machine,weapon,etc he needs to succeed.However he had a very long time to plan for sentry(since he was normon's most powerful weapon,and ironman told doom sentry erased the mind of every living thing on the planet(so he knew he was powerful and they were going to clash again))now i normally don't bring what ifs,but this one has Atau the watcher of earth 21119 tells Uatu the watcher of earth 616(prime earth)what would have happened if loki didn't use the norn stones on sentry in siege of asgard

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dr doom used to have a different plan originally,however after his fallout with osborn that plan couldn't be used anymore.

now look again at the scans of dr doom vs sentry,did you ever see anyone beat doom that easily?

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1-2) molecule man(back when he was still using the wand,no where near the beyonder yet)easily beat SS. 3) destroys his surf board.

so yeah that wont save him from a being with superior molecule manipulation.

And I also guessed you'd cite this instance too. Your major problem here is in drastically assuming that just because a weaker MM overpowered Surfer with his molecular manipulation, that Void can do the same because he did so to a more powerful MM. This doesn't take into account how old the first two scans are in relation to these respective characters' powers and abilities. Just as MM got more powerful over time, so too did the Surfer. The Power Cosmic now has a plethora of abilities that the Surfer can use at will and a lot of these abilities were not part of Surfer's power set at the time that Surfer faced MM here. Henceforth, it is an extreme assumption to make that Void will be able to overpower Surfer in molecular manipulation when you take all his feats into account.

there is no counter,or a protection when fighting someone with greater molecular manipulation than you.surfer is not on thanos lvl,let alone a cosmic cube being's lvl.

but as was shown in siege the void's tentacles can take down many opponents very quickly.

SS's best hope is that void will want to play with him before killing him like he did to the heroes in siege,and not kill him immediately like Loki.

And Surfer can reform his board at will

So yeah that's taken apart what little worth this point had in the first place.

except owen already showed a being with superior molecule manipulation can beat him,and sentry/void beat post retcon owen who is a cosmic cube being.

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1) Dr doom who had absorbed galactus,gets beat with the cosmic cube. 2-5) just thought i should show just how powerful owen was even after the retcon.

These scans are presented in a disjointed way and I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Still, I've dealt with Owen's low showing against Void and why it's completely illegitimate evidence so it's fair that I should respond with what Surfer can do with his molecular manipulation

it was a response on your claim that MM was very weak after the retcon,as you can see owen was still a power house after the retcon.

So unless you have better evidence of Void's molecular manipulation outside of "He beat Owen, it's tots legit!" that forgoes your main trump card in this debate as Surfer has a consistently good track record of molecular manipulation too. And morals are off here so he's more than likely to use it in lethal and deadly ways against Bob.

well first we agreed on no bfr,so SS can't just put sentry somewhere far away and be done with it.

second simple if SS managed to bond sentry to his board,sentry will un-bind himself via molecule manipulation.and now for the clothes,i actually have a scan for that

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i will change it back :D

you can see SS dr strange in there,and you can see black bolt in there too,also thor is superior or at-least equal to SS,seeing he either beats him or stalemates him every time they fight.

took blast from celestials,hurt galactus(galactus was hungry but still),etc.

but for now lets not derail the cav on who is more powerful Thor or SS

Given that I've shown Surfer nearly frying Thor with a warning shot, brushing off an alternate but evil, morals off, logically possible equal in power like he was nothing and humiliating Beta Ray Bill, Thor's equal in every way, I fail to see how your claim that Thor is at least equal or superior to Surfer has any tangible weight to it. But fine, agree to disagree, it isn't wholly relevant I suppose.

thor has said before in order not to make his friends feel in-competent he holds back,also by surfer's own admission Thor was holding back against him(while surfer was amped by loki),and he should avoid making thor his enemy

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The second scan is misused entirely out of context. It again relates to how characters don't have the same power levels as they do now. If we were talking Classic Thor vs Classic Surfer, I'd give Thor the edge. But after that fight, as Surfer has gained more and more appearances and feats, it's abundantly clear that he surpasses Thor in power and versatility without needing an amp. Your poor use of their first fight ignores the changes in power that both characters have gone through. Surfer has become more powerful whereas Thor has kinda gotten weaker.

fighting Bor,fighting serpant,fighting gorr,etc did thor get weaker than his classic version sure,but not by that much(at-least not as much as you are trying to make it sound)

o.k street to mid tier is low-balling it beyond extreme.

black bolt was said to be second to sentry,and in infinity he hurt thanos(something SS couldn't do).SS dr strange the guy that took on more powerful foes than SS can even imagine.Dr doom who already beat SS,and thanos said he respects him.Loki,terrax,etc all of these guys are way more powerful than mid tiers.

It's all well and good to say I'm lowballing but you haven't actually done any sort of good job at showing exactly how I've lowballed in the slightest. It was only a statement that Black Bolt is second to Sentry and feats>statements. I could name loads of being more powerful than Black Bolt; Thor, Nate Grey, Juggernaut, World War Hulk, the list goes on. Their feats surpass the statement that Black Bolt is second to Sentry. As for BB hurting Thanos, you fail to remember that it took several shouts/screams from Bolt to actually hurt Thanos. And he was right in his face too. A useful bit of context that nullifies your faulty logic to make Surfer seem weaker than he actually is.

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1) black bolt gets up and shouts,you can see how damaged thanos is in this scan,and in the beginning of the second one. 3) black bolt was depowered after the first attack,which means every shout he did was not on the same level.

now for nate

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nate who knows sentry tells him he knows sentry would win if they fought,he also tells him that they fought galactus together.(now these are just statements but since you think nate is up the ladder(which he is)i though i should post what he thinks of bob).

The first scan was only a short fight and did not occur for very long. Therefore, it is sheer off panel evidence that does not hold up anywhere near as strong a piece of evidence you'd like it to be. I distinctly recall that fight ending sooner than anticipated. Thus, you have done nothing to even remotely prove that the heroes Void fought in the other 3 scans from Siege were not mostly comprised of street levellers to mid tiers. It's obvious that I'm doing anything but lowballing here. I'm pointing out that the heroes Void fought in Siege were nowhere near the calibre you mistakenly think they are.

no offence to nighthunder,but like he said he wasn't familiar with sentry and this was his first time using him.

sentry wasn't rattled by the nuke,he barley had any scratches,he also attempted to kill himself by flying into the sun and didn't work,so SS's attacks wont damage him,and if they did he will heal instantly.

True, he wasn't that strong debating with Sentry, you're correct there. But unfortunately I've rechecked the thread and seen obvious signs of damage and physical effects that the nukes had on Sentry. So that's another thing you're incorrect on.

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his clothes is gone,and he had a cut on top of his head not that much damage like i said(keep in mind that is one of his earliest showings)

Adding to that incorrect list is the fact that Void was disintegrated in the sun.

read the part where he says he recovered from an atom,and if he wanted it to stop he could

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after siege he wanted to punish himself so he stayed there to punish himself.

In contrast, let's see how Surfer handles a sunbathe

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cool sentry can too

Oh look, his skin doesn't even tingle from 10,000 degree heat. I guess we can add durability to the factors that Surfer has an edge in.

great post,though i debunked most of it(sorry)

Although this post has gone on long enough, I'll reiterate the sheer energy manipulation advantage Surfer has in this fight and how Void will go down to this raw power Surfer can use in battle

i will respond to your energy attacks,by showing sentry fighting genis vell with energy attacks only

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sentry tanked photon's attacks,and used his own attacks(which was seen from the microverse)so if void/sentry decided to play with surfer he will deal with the damage surfer can use,and send him back some too.

This level of Cosmic firepower is bound to give Void trouble throughout the fight. He'll be blasted apart again and again until he's had enough of being target practice for Surfer. However, if you don't think that will work, I already have another strategy in mind. Surfer can just manipulate loads of energy into the Void, thus overloading him with power forcing him to burst apart.

the void/sentry stayed in the sun for 8+ years punishing himself,he doesn't get bored easily.As for overloading him,it will be hard considering void/sentry has insane amount of energy.

He's channelled the energy of a giant red star before with ease

And Surfer has focused billions of Terrawatts of power in this showing

To show the science behind this feat, one Terrawatt is the energy within the average lightning bolt

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And since Surfer has morals off and no reason to hold this back, he could overload Sentry with the equivalent power of, say, 1 billion lightning bolts all at once. This is a trick that has worked on Sentry before

So it stands to reason Surfer can overload him again.

it should be noted that this was the original human torch from ww2,him and the rest of cap america's team were transported from the past here.Where they were easily overpowered the mighty avengers.but if you want to count that one then sure,i will go ahead and count that one though

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i can put surfer in an arm lock till he taps,or hit him with an energy blast that is greater than the one storm used.(without stardust he looses here)

and as sentry throwing void in the sun,it useless here.sentry didn't need the void anymore,so it disappeared because he wanted it too.

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In Summary

  • Void's main trump card, molecular manipulation, is based on a faulty representation of Molecule Man's power when he has consistently shown feats that would enable him to annihilate Surfer and Void at the same time with ease. Therefore, this is PIS evidence that cannot be used as a reliable presentation of Void's power.
  • Surfer has total control over his body, his board and has regenerated from much worse attacks so Void doesn't have a hope of destroying him.
  • Surfer has shown the best ways of defeating Void so far, either by obliterating him with his superior energy output or by overloading him with too much energy for him to handle.
  • There are still other ways for Surfer to win that I have yet to show whereas you haven't provided one reliable way for Surfer to be beaten by Void.
  • All in all, anything Void can do, Surfer can counter, surpass and then use of the many powers he has to defeat Void.

Ball's in your court now.

1) i will say it once again.raw power doesn't equal equal feats.franklin richards can manipulate reality but HOM wanda is more powerful because she has more raw power,silver surfer has power cosmic but he is equal to galactus who also has the power cosmic.its the same here MM had molecule manipulation so did sentry/void,while MM had better feats sentry had more raw power.

2) so did beyonder yet he lost to owen,and owen had the same yet he lost to void/sentry,same will happen here.

3) photon couldn't overpower him with energy attacks,or the collective which owned binary ms marvel immediately,they had to bfr sentry to win.so SS wont be able to.

4) he takes surfer apart on a molecular lvl,or he mindr*pes him.thats 2 ways.

5) o.k show scans of SS having greater immortality than void/sentry(coming back from a time kill,coming back after owen killed him),bringing back dead people(his wife lindy),healing and giving un-treatable cancer,tp'ing people immune or highly resistant to it,creating life,overpowering with ease people on herald lvls,etc

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all and all silver surfer has impressive feats,it definitely puts him on a high herald level.However void/sentry is a transcended being far above the likes of heralds,this match will be SS's worst nightmare coming to reality,his best hope is the void is merciful enough to kill him quickly.

your turn.(p.s so we don't make the cav too long,how about 1 more post each,and then do our closing posts?)

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#44 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@sophia89: So are you done yet? If so, tell me when you are.

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#45 Edited by sophia89 (19802 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@sophia89: I’ll make my Round 3 post now.

Round 3

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but it wasn't till beyonder-doom opened his mind to the secrets of the universe did he accomplish this.Also it wasn't immediate it took him awhile to reach that lvl,otherwise he would have teleported everyone to earth in a second as beyonder did.

void-sentry didn't have the time to practice his capabilities,he got his new powers in dark avengers 12,and he was gone by dark avengers 16.that is only 4(3 considering he was not in 16).he obviously didn't have time to practice these powers,not to mention osborne had told him not to use it so it doesn't drive him mad.

now i know your counter will be that Owen had this level of power always.which is correct however i would to remind you of fantastic four #20(first appearance of MM)

I’m aware that it wasn’t until Doom opened his mind to his powers that Owen reached the power level he did but that’s been the focus of my rebuttal to your faulty presentation of the Void overpowering MM feat. As for your “Void didn’t have the experience point” it fails to address a fallacy which undermines the credibility of said point. Void somehow managed to take control of a being whose molecules have consistently been portrayed as his own to control. Not even the Pre-Retcon Beyonder could control his molecules and he was at the level of near omnipotent Cosmic Abstract before he was retconned into a Cosmic Cube being and then an Inhuman. Yet Void can miraculously control these molecules and he doesn’t even come close to the power and feats that the Pre-Retcon Beyonder was capable of. It’s a major inconsistency within MM’s power levels that a much weaker being like Void can even control his molecules whilst Void is also unable to fix a small town. It would take far more experience to control MM’s molecules than it would to fix a small town. In contrast, Owen has fixed multiversal destruction casually and reconstructed complex objects like the items you showed him destroying.

This is where your claim falls apart entirely as you cannot justify the lowballing of MM against Void in contrast to how much more powerful he was portrayed previously. This is why your attempt to say that Void didn’t have the experience wielding his molecular manipulation does not work at all. Owen is much more powerful and experienced than Void at molecular manipulation so he should not have lost at all. The fact that he did is simply bad writing. It baffles me that people accept this feat as credible when there’s so much wrong with it when you just analyse it.

over here i will leave sentry/void's molecule manipulation powers,and point out how he was a threat to MM,a threat that would make MM put sentry on his radar.

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1-4) Sorcerer supreme dr strange says the return of void means the end of the universe,he also says he was o.k reading God's mind but sentry's mind is too scary,and to show more than just statements dr strange fails to contain sentry in a magical illusion(keep in mind ss dr strange did actually meet universal threat and he was the one that knocked out galactus(starving)when he was on earth). 5-8) absorbing man who absorbed thor before,nearly absorbed Odin,and absorbed a cosmic cube couldn't absorb sentry(notice how he says he never felt a rush like this before). 9) sentry containing a cosmic cube with his bare hand(not sure if you saw it in my last post or no)

The evidence provided here seems to be a lot of vague and empty statements such as Strange finding Sentry’s mind scarier than an omnipotent being like God or TOAA or whatever his name is. Pure and utter hogwash right there. But I think you’re trying to say that because Strange couldn’t handle Sentry, that makes him a threat on MM’s radar. Nice try but that is a flawed basis to justify Sentry being anywhere near MM’s radar. For one, Classic Strange was vastly more powerful than he is currently. His mystical spells and expertise were on a far greater level and he had the showings to justify him knocking out Galactus with a mental spell. Based on that showing, it’s ridiculous to even consider Sentry breaking free of Strange’s mind control as anywhere near credible evidence. He doesn’t have the mental resistance feats that Hulk, let alone Thanos does so for him to shake off Stephen’s control is unreliable. Since you’re citing Killemall in your post, I’m inclined to do the same based on a recent conversation I had with him a few weeks ago. He told me Classic Strange was capable of busting planets and controlling black holes in a fight with Shuma-Gorath. I can have him confirm this if needs be but this demonstrates how Classic Strange is on a much higher level than Current Strange and consequently Sentry.

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1-4) AM absorbs odin(although it should be noted that odin could have killed him at the start,but instead decided to trick loki into revealing himself). 5) AM absorbs a cosmic cube and pym says sentry can stop him(that was way before sentry killed MM). 6) Dr strange k.o'es galactus.

so i am pretty sure just these feats would have put him on MM's radar.

Moving onto your Absorbing Man evidence, you use the Odin showing in a grossly incorrect manner. Odin was using his Scepter of Supremacy which was a mere fraction of his full power. Heck it wasn’t even the Odin Force itself. Here are the last scans from Absorbing Man’s confrontation with Odin.

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Note how Odin says “My power rests not in any ceremonial sceptre, but deep within myself.” Odin tricked Absorbing Man into thinking he had absorbed his power when all he had absorbed were cosmic blasts from a random sceptre, the power of which is nowhere near Odin’s full might. I believe that debunks one of your pieces of evidence.

Your ‘Absorbing Man Cosmic Cube’ is also not quite what it seems. Pym clearly says “He may have the power of a Cosmic Cube but not its full range of abilities.” Basically, the power meant nothing if he can’t use it properly which was clearly the case here. And Sentry holding a Cosmic Cube has no combat relevancy.

This leads onto another one of my strategies for dealing with Void. Unlike Absorbing Man, I can confidently claim that Surfer should be capable of absorbing his energies if needs be. His energy absorption feats are majorly impressive and fully justify him being able to absorb Void’s energy if needs be.

He can absorb a massive amount of energy from a star to greatly increase his power. Bear in mind that the same stars are capable of consistently tearing Void and Sentry apart on a regular basis. So that comparison highlights a major reason why Surfer can absorb Void’s energy.

Surfer has also shown to be able to absorb fellow Herald Firelord’s Cosmic Flame attacks.

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What strengthens this feat is this scan of Surfer stating that whilst the heat of stars mean nothing to him, Firelord can make him feel the heat of his flame blasts. He also says he can reflect or absorb a near infinite amount of it so bear that as food for thought.

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And before you quibble with me on Bob’s so called ‘infinite power’ Surfer has also absorbed the infinite gamma irradiated rage strength from The Hulk’s body. And whilst they may be hyperbole, there have been several statements saying that the Hulk’s strength is limitless in power. Yet Surfer has proven to be capable of absorbing it all to pierce Galactus’ barrier.

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I believe that should demonstrate why Surfer absorbing Void’s power is entirely not out of the question.

but that is not all,like i stated before sentry is a powerful telepath,how powerful?

enough to erase himself from the minds of everyone on earth and the moon(that includes franklin richards(who resisted a tp from celestials(will post scans if needed))juggernaut and magneto who are supposedly immune to tp,dr doom(will post scans if needed)and all the omega lvl mutants),enough to reshape earth into what he wants with his telepathic powers.

Now for your erroneous rating of Void’s telepathic capabilities. You fail to factor in the blatant fact that it was not Sentry himself who erased his existence from the minds of everyone on Earth. Rather, it was a machine built by Reed and others which did it for Sentry. I don’t know how you’d miss that obvious context to the story as it’s always been a machine that erased Sentry’s existence to the world, not Sentry himself. Heck, that same machine is used in One Moment in Time to erase Spider-Man’s identity from the minds of everyone on Earth. As for Sentry’s psionic powers, it’s clearly stated by Emma Frost, a much more experienced and powerful telepath that Sentry’s psionic powers are only there to hold his physical powers together.

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They do not have combat applicability in the slightest and there’s no proof that you can provide which says otherwise. That being said, even if there was, I can shut down that possibility with ease. Surfer cannot be harmed on the Astral Plane as it’s the source of his Power Cosmic. Thus he remains immune to telepathic attacks.

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As I’ve demonstrated, Sentry’s ‘telepathy’ is nothing that can be applied in combat nor is it anywhere near the level of, say Martian Manhunter which would at least make this debatable. As it stands, I’ve taken care of your telepathy argument entirely so good luck coming back from this one.

molecule man wasn't retconned though,i don't have it on me,but killemall once asked bendis if MM was retconned,who replied no he wasn't retconned(but he wasn't in the best in his mind)

much like sentry/void owen's power depends on his mental state

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the first is molecule man,the second is sentry(way before he fought MM)

Your evidence provided here only serves to support my argument more than it does yours. Especially the last Marvel handbook scan where it states MM’s power level was ‘manageable’ in The Raft. After his retcon, MM’s power levels dropped drastically so not only is it entirely unreliable for Void to even think about overpowering MM at his own game, he did so on a much weaker Owen Reece. This is not surprising given that it was Bendis who wrote that fight. Bendis is known for not being reliable in the slightest when it comes to character histories. He doesn’t research the characters he’s writing much at all and, when he was asked about Molecule Man’s power level, gave a very coy answer about it. Something about how everything in comics was up for interpretation. Thus, this is merely another addition to my argument that the Void/MM instance is entirely unreliable given that the writer of this encounter did not do his research on Molecule Man and wrote him as being much weaker than he had been previously portrayed by other writers.

i am going to pull a card out of your own defense,and say these scans are too old.

sentry didn't throw terrax off the planet he beat him with 1 hand then orderedhim of the planet.

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1) sentry ordering terrax off the planet,not taking him to jail,which means terrax can leave the planet. 2-3) on an alien planet(so he left earth)and then destroys it. 4-5) nova tries to warn terrax that the phoenix is coming to eat the planet,and he needs terrax's help evacuating it(terrax on yet another planet,which he rules). 6-17) terrax beats silver surfer,hulk saves silver surfer's life and helps him,yet Silver surfer still loses(sentry without MM beat him with 1 hand,yet surfer lost while using 2 hands)

so what you showed is SS can bfr a de-powered terrax,unlike sentry who beat normal terrax.

It seems you put a lot of effort into finding the Marvel Adventure scans. So I apologise when I say this but I’m now going to tear them to shreds. You see, I thought those scans looked incredibly dodgy immediately upon seeing them. So I did a little research of my own and found some relevant info you overlooked. The Marvel Adventures line were a group of titles aimed mainly for a child audience. Specifically, Marvel Adventures Hulk are where your Hulk scans are from. The main reason your scans are totally unreliable is, according to Wikipedia and I quote “In order to be able to tell standalone stories and to escape the trappings of having to reflect the events of other Marvel titles, none of the titles take place within the primary Marvel Universe continuity. “ This is supported further when you see that your scans are from the last Marvel Adventures line rather than the Marvel Age line. The Marvel Age line was said to update the classic Marvel stories whereas the Marvel Adventures line emerged in 2005 and its titles fell under the “not taking place in primary Marvel universe continuity.” If you check the image where Surfer is fighting Terrax and the story credits are, you’ll see that your scans are from 2008, which is after the non canon line of books emerged.

Essentially, all you’ve proven is that a non canon Surfer has trouble dealing with a non canon Terrax. This has absolutely no bearing on the mainstream Surfer and Terrax being discussed here. It also becomes obvious those scans aren’t canon when you look at their details. I’ll let you do that yourself. As for the other Terrax scans, they definitely fail to counter my point that Terrax is an inconsistent jobber of a Herald. Using him as a benchmark for Sentry defeating Herald level characters is not applicable to this battle. Let me show you how it’s done.

Take Morg for example. Morg is another Herald of Galactus who has a pretty good track record against the other Heralds. He’s beaten Terrax, he was about to kill Firelord in the set of scans I’m about to show you and he’s killed Nova. All Herald level beings that Morg overpowered.

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But the Surfer handles Morg easily in this fight and once he’s had enough, he casually causes a planet busting explosion which KOs Morg. Bear in mind, Morg is a consistently more powerful Herald who’s defeated most of the other Heralds without this amp he received during particular event in one on one battles. And he lacked any moral convictions to boot. Yet Norrin was capable of taking Morg’s best shots and putting him in his place without killing him. With morals off here, this example of a superior Herald beatdown alongside demonstrating superior energy projection is ample proof that Surfer has what it takes to obliterare Void in combat.

and i can post more than 3 examples of thor surviving and killing being on skyfather lvl.But like i said before i don't want to derail this into who is more powerful thor or silver surfer.

whoever since you said SS can own thor like void did,let me post the last fight these guys had and see if SS did own thor

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doesn't look like he owned thor,it looked like they stalemated each other.

I knew you’d bring this instance into play. Again, it’s abundantly clear that this was another inconclusive and not entirely fairly written fight. Surfer wasn’t using the full range of his abilities nor was he going full out against Thor. He still stalemated Thor and took his best attacks with ease. So no it doesn’t look like Surfer owned Thor there because of WIS done to make Thor look as good as possible against a vastly more powerful and versatile being based on Surfer's own feats and showings outside of facing Thor.

first i would like to address your force-field withstanding a bannerless hulk.it may seem powerful doing that,however hulk was extremely weak at that time,here is @ghostravage explaining it in another thread.

Congratulations, you’ve actually proven me wrong on one of my forcefield points. That makes for a change. No matter, I’ll just exchange it for a showing where Surfer puts a force field round a ship to allow it to safely travel through the dangers and stresses of hyperspace travel.

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now finally for the prep,true if you give doom prep he can come up with a plan and invent the needed machine,weapon,etc he needs to succeed.However he had a very long time to plan for sentry(since he was normon's most powerful weapon,and ironman told doom sentry erased the mind of every living thing on the planet(so he knew he was powerful and they were going to clash again))now i normally don't bring what ifs,but this one has Atau the watcher of earth 21119 tells Uatu the watcher of earth 616(prime earth)what would have happened if loki didn't use the norn stones on sentry in siege of asgard

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dr doom used to have a different plan originally,however after his fallout with osborn that plan couldn't be used anymore.

now look again at the scans of dr doom vs sentry,did you ever see anyone beat doom that easily?

Seriously, do I even need to point out what’s wrong here? You’ve cited a What If? Issue for evidence which is not part of the canon transpiring of events that occurred during Siege. You should know better than to use obvious non canon evidence as, no matter how appealing it may be, this is not how events occurred at all. Thus, this evidence of your What if scenario can instantly be discredited and should not be considered at all because it is not part of the 616 canon history.

there is no counter,or a protection when fighting someone with greater molecular manipulation than you.surfer is not on thanos lvl,let alone a cosmic cube being's lvl.

but as was shown in siege the void's tentacles can take down many opponents very quickly.

SS's best hope is that void will want to play with him before killing him like he did to the heroes in siege,and not kill him immediately like Loki.

Funny because it seems I’ve been consistently providing counters and rebuttals to every fallacious point you’ve made about Void’s overhyped molecular capabilities and the utter falseness of the Molecule Man instance. Yet you persist in your warped belief that Void’s molecular manipulation is superior to MM’s and can take down Surfer when nothing you’ve said on this case is even remotely reliable or believable. Go back to the drawing board here because I’ve discredited this before and have done so again in this post. Also, the heroes Void ‘played’ with in Siege were mostly street level to mid tiers apart from Thor. That’s not exactly a great benchmark for playing with them easily is it? Void had better hope Surfer makes his demise quick because you’ve shown nothing reliable that Void has in his power set to take Surfer down.

it was a response on your claim that MM was very weak after the retcon,as you can see owen was still a power house after the retcon.

See this post for reasons why Owen was not a powerhouse after the retcon.

well first we agreed on no bfr,so SS can't just put sentry somewhere far away and be done with it.

second simple if SS managed to bond sentry to his board,sentry will un-bind himself via molecule manipulation.and now for the clothes,i actually have a scan for that

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First of all, imprisoning Void in the board does not count as BFR. Surfer is not removing Void from the battle, he's incapacitating him. So this doesn't breach the rules at all. Secondly, prove he can unbind himself via molecular manipulation. You’ve admitted Void doesn’t have the experience with his molecular manipulation powers as all he’s done is blown stuff up. How is he going to get out of the board when he has no proof he can perform skilled molecular manipulation? So far, this is just an empty, baseless statement, nothing more.

fighting Bor,fighting serpant,fighting gorr,etc did thor get weaker than his classic version sure,but not by that much(at-least not as much as you are trying to make it sound)

Thor fought Bor when he was still in possession of The Odin Force, he fought the Serpent with the Odinsword and special armour along with Loki rewriting The Serpent's history in a Journey into Mystery tie-in and he had his younger self and future Skyfather self helping him fight Gorr. Please try not to cite showings that have obvious context to them as to why Thor did as well as he did against powerful opponents.

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1) black bolt gets up and shouts,you can see how damaged thanos is in this scan,and in the beginning of the second one. 3) black bolt was depowered after the first attack,which means every shout he did was not on the same level.

now for nate

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nate who knows sentry tells him he knows sentry would win if they fought,he also tells him that they fought galactus together.(now these are just statements but since you think nate is up the ladder(which he is)i though i should post what he thinks of bob).

Well look who else has tanked a word from Black Bolt too.

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Your last scans including Nate are more unsubstantiated, entirely untrustworthy statements. Do you honestly believe the rubbish Nate is saying here? He’s trying to get rid of Bob as he’s the biggest threat to Nate. The Galactus story is also hyperbolic exaggeration to say the least. Feats>statements on the battle forums and until we see feats of Sentry fighting and somehow stalemating Galactus, they cannot be considered reliable evidence.

read the part where he says he recovered from an atom,and if he wanted it to stop he could

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after siege he wanted to punish himself so he stayed there to punish himself.

In contrast, let's see how Surfer handles a sunbathe

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cool sentry can too

Unfortunately, there’s a much greater consistency of evidence which indicates Void is capable of being burned by the sun.

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Thus proving this claim to be totally and utterly wrong I'm afraid.

Surfer channelling that energy into Void = bye bye Void, no more regeneration for a long time and the conditions for winning the battle are fulfilled.

i will respond to your energy attacks,by showing sentry fighting genis vell with energy attacks only

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sentry tanked photon's attacks,and used his own attacks(which was seen from the microverse)so if void/sentry decided to play with surfer he will deal with the damage surfer can use,and send him back some too.

I guessed you'd cite this instance as well. However, I'll use a quote from GhostRavage from the CAV he and I participated in which shows his response to that feat. Just as he managed to deal with my Surfer forcefield claim, so too does he manage to debunk that faulty Microverse feat with ease

Your Energy Projection vs My Resistance to it

Your scans first, as always...

  • The first scan says the "the power BOTH men spit out is enough to shred entire worlds"

The "both" implies is not only Sentry's energy projection that is going to shred worlds. Second, it doesn't say it can destroy multiple planets, which is an overstatement to be honest. Im almost positive it meant it could destroy planets, not destroy multiple planets. That's of course ignoring Sentry didn't show such energy projection in the scan, which leaves it as a mere statement. Im open to correction though.

There isn't any misinterpretation, the statements are as clear as water. Why mentioning them both if each one of them could make planets explode? It was because it was the combined energy projection that could've done that. And i said he wasn't showing that energy projection since there were no planets being destroyed and it was merely a text box of Captain America's statements. As far as that feat goes, it is just a statement with an implication that still lacks the graphic proof. In other words Character to Character overhyping.

That feat is sheer hyperbole at his finest. No planets are at all harmed in the making of Sentry's fight nor has there ever been any other indication that Sentry can produce planet busting energy projection attacks. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the Silver Surfer.

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  1. Destroys a planet Korvac formed around him to imprison him.
  2. Destroys a planet casually in his battle with Morg and KOs him.
  3. Destroys a planet to make a point to Ravenous.
  4. Destroys a planet and leaves a black hole in its place (though that would breach the rules of no BFR so that won't be used here.)

That makes for 4 on panel, actual planet busting energy projection feats for Silver Surfer. On panel showings>hyperbolic exaggerations of planet busting statement. Bob won't be giving as good as he gets in the energy projection department when Surfer is capable of casually planet busting at a whim. And Bob hasn't shown the durability to withstand nor quickly recover from a planet busting attack so that leaves the blasting Bob into pieces plan intact.

the void/sentry stayed in the sun for 8+ years punishing himself,he doesn't get bored easily.As for overloading him,it will be hard considering void/sentry has insane amount of energy.

The Human Torch and Void disintegrating in sun showings conclusively proved that Bob can be overloaded with enough energy expended into him. And the Surfer is more than capable of channelling his vast Power Cosmic or a nearby star into Bob overloading him with power and making him burst. Saying Bob has an insane amount of energy doesn't change the fact that this has happened to him before.

it should be noted that this was the original human torch from ww2,him and the rest of cap america's team were transported from the past here.Where they were easily overpowered the mighty avengers.but if you want to count that one then sure,i will go ahead and count that one though

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i can put surfer in an arm lock till he taps,or hit him with an energy blast that is greater than the one storm used.(without stardust he looses here)

Yes obviously they were overpowered but that doesn't change how The Human Torch took Sentry out of play by overloading him with heat/energy/power. And just because I've counted a time where Sentry was obviously susceptible to energy overload doesn't mean you get to use a feat which is widely agreed upon as PIS of the highest order. And even then, Black Panther had created Power Cosmic dampening gear which limited the Surfer to his use of powers whilst Panther was close to him. Citing that feat only makes your case all the more unreliable due to the poor writing and inconsistent portrayal of the characters involved. If Void tries getting Surfer in an arm lock, Surfer will just blast free with a burst of Power Cosmic and set about defeating Void again.

To Summarise

  1. The so called 'raw power' advantage Void had over MM is based upon false, fallacious, misrepresented circumstances of Owen's power where he was written to be much weaker than he has been consistently portrayed. This makes the one feat where Void overpowered him into a low showing for Owen rather than a high showing for Bob. Since it does not compare to what Owen consistently performed prior to being retconned or was portrayed previously, it can be discounted.
  2. Your second point is blatant ABC logic which is not how one debates in the slightest. Factor in the context of the feats, the consistency of which the characters perform the feats and it's clear Owen should not have beaten by Void. Likewise, the Surfer's feats in areas such as molecular manipulation, durability and regeneration render him practically immune to being put down by the Void's attacks due to the more powerful ones he's endured.
  3. I believe I've shown Surfer's energy output to be casual planet busting range whereas The Void's on panel energy projection is at a much lower pedestal due to the hyperbolic exaggerations of the Genis Vell feat.
  4. I've debunked Void's molecular manipulation already and Surfer is immune to telepathy. You have yet to credibly deal with the tactics of Surfer either overloading Void with the energy of a sun that can burn him up very quickly or from Surfer draining Void of all his energy.
  5. Though your posts have been a valiant effort to be certain, I'm not convinced this debate demonstrates the fight will go the way you think it will. The Void, whilst powerful, has clear and distinct limits. The Molecule Man instance has been debunked for the fallacy it is and the sun has clearly disintegrated Void before. Surfer's limits are far beyond the Void's based on a greater consistency of evidence for Surfer having more advantages in energy manipulation, durability and regeneration and more logical reasoning based on what's more likely to happen. As it stands, the Surfer possesses the most reliable ways of taking Void out whereas the Void doesn't have a shred of any sort of good tactics to beat Surfer here based on what's transpired thus far. Void is only a teambuster at the end of the day whereas The Silver Surfer is a much more powerful Herald far beyond what you falsely think the Void to be. The Void's feats have been exaggerated beyond what they really are whereas the Surfer's are on panel, verifiable, credible feats that place him above The Void in almost every category. It's evidently clear that the Surfer possesses the necessary edges to defeat Void in this battle.

Your turn Sophia.

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#47 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@sophia89: Also I'm fine with making one more debate post and then a concluding post each btw. Fine by me if that's what you want to do so the CAV doesn't drag on forever.

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#48 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

Norrin let himself be restrained

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#49 Posted by Killemall (18972 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Norrin let himself be restrained

It doesnt say so anywhere in the comics though, its just what writer said when he get berated like hell for the feat.

Its also not the first time he has had street level character arm lock guys massively powerful than them, before this in Contest of Champion 2, under the same writer Black widow did exactly that to Wonder Man.

Its just hax writing and coming up with excuse after getting berated to death by fans.

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#50 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall While that may be the case, it's not the first time that a writer has expanded on what they've written in their comic.