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#1 Edited by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio

Sasuke Uchiha----------Represented by @highaccuser

VS
VS

Kakashi Hatake----------Represented by @comicstooge

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Rules:

  • Kage Summit Sasuke.
  • 4th Shinobi World War Kakashi.
  • Anime/Manga feats allowed.
  • They start at full stamina.
  • Sasuke has his sword.
  • Kakashi has his assorted gear.
  • No Manda Summoning.
  • In character, but willing to fight seriously.
  • Starting distance is 50 feet.
  • Random encounter.
  • Win by any means.
  • Fight takes place here:
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#2 Posted by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge everything look good to you? Also you should probably post first.

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#3 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge everything look good to you? Also you should probably post first.

Sure.

Also, I figured this would be good at get us puuuuuumped.

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#4 Edited by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@comicstooge everything look good to you? Also you should probably post first.

Sure.

Also, I figured this would be good at get us puuuuuumped.

Loading Video...

You figured wrong.

Dubbed voices turn me off completely.

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#5 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

@highaccuser said:

@comicstooge everything look good to you? Also you should probably post first.

Sure.

Also, I figured this would be good at get us puuuuuumped.

Loading Video...

You figured wrong.

Dubbed voices turn me off completely.

Mute it. :P

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#6 Posted by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@comicstooge said:

@highaccuser said:

@comicstooge everything look good to you? Also you should probably post first.

Sure.

Also, I figured this would be good at get us puuuuuumped.

Loading Video...

You figured wrong.

Dubbed voices turn me off completely.

Mute it. :P

Genius.

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#7 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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Round 1:

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To start off, I'll outline Kakashi's three basic attributes - strength, durability and speed, as well Taijutsu.

Strength:

In terms of raw strength, I'd argue Kakashi is the stronger of the two, in terms of both hitting power and raw lifting strength.

For one, he could match Obito in a grapple. This is the same Obito who's steps and punches could completely shatter concrete and was stated by Zetsu to be able to punch through boulders.

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Here, he break's Nagato's chakra receivers.

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Pulls Naruto out of the 3-Tails tough coral.

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Wields Zabuza's Kubikiribōchō, which normal humans shouldn't be able to wield it.

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Overpowers Zabuza's strength while he weilds a demon wind shuriken. His raw strength is enough to send it from Zabuza's grip, flying away. Zabuza was strong enough to throw Kubikiribōchō like a boomerang yet Kakashi overpowered him.

(Forgive the border on this one)

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He also diverted Naruto and Sasuke a respectable distance into two water towers.

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Basically, he's got more raw strength than Sasuke.

Not only that, but his striking power should be greater, too.

Here's Obito tanking a Rasengan to the spine:

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Said Rasengan turned the field they were fighting in, into a crater.

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Kakashi could draw blood from an older, more powerful Obito:

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Evidently, he should hit harder.

Durability:

Now, I already know what sort of feats you're going to lay down.

Valley of the End, right? Sasuke being punched and slammed through rock and whatnot by KN0 and KN1?

Kakashi's been hit harder, by stronger Jinchuuriki. He takes a tail swipe from V2 Utakata.

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The same Utakata that could hurl multiple trees with his tails:

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And cause massive craters with his strikes:

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Basically V2 Utakata > 1 Tailed Naruto.

Not only that, but we know how hard Kakazu hits, right?

He could casually stomp Choji:

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Collapses the room of a building:

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And he kicks Kakashi square in the chest, yet he's able to fight just fine afterwards:

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Tanks Pain's Shinra Tensei, which was powerful enough to completely demolish a massive variant Kakashi's chakra enhanced mud wall.

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Tanks it again. This time, it causes a crater.

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In short, Kakashi's durability is superior to Sasuke's.

Speed:

Speed between the two is much closer. I'd argue their speed is roughly equal, tbh.

For one, he saved Sakura from Sasuke's Chidori at close range, from the looks of things, he'd only just gotten to the bridge, too.

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Dodges his kick and delivers one in response:

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Dodges Sasuke's Chidori:

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They stalemate in a short taijutsu clash. Kakashi had Sasuke on the backfoot throughout the exchange though, it's worth noting.

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What's important to note here is that Kakashi was struggling greatly with the idea of killing his former student. While true, Sasuke was going blind, he was healed by Karin shortly before the fight started and had Zetsu attached to him. He still had plenty left in the tank, seeing as he could stalemate Naruto in a Chidori/Rasengan clash.

He has other cool speed feats, like dodging Tendo Pain's kick and creating a rock wall. Pain can keep up with Sage Mode Naruto and Jiraya.

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Dodges the explosion of Asura Pain's missiles and appears behind him:

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In a training exercise, his hand speed is too fast for Naruto or Sakura to follow.

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Taijutsu

I'd argue Kakashi possesses more raw skill in terms of H2H, as well.

Look at this display against Kakazu. He uses the Hidden Lotus and demonstrates impressive skill.

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He's even shown effective at countering opponents with blades. While blind, he still avoids the sword swings of two member of The 7 Swordmen of the Mist alongside Might Guy.

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Hidan was skilled enough, that Asuma, a skilled Jonin good enough to be a member of the elite 12 Guardian Ninja, couldn't touch him and was later killed while fighting him.

He also forced Orochimaru and Kakazu to use long range attacks, after going close range wasn't getting them anywhere.

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How did Kakashi fare in comparison?

Counters Hidan's scythe swings without drawing a single drop of blood.

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Twice:

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Three times:

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Four times, then avoids Kakazu's fire heart's attack:

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Dodges Hidan again, while having to deal with Kakazu's wind and fire hearts:

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Basically, Kakashi will have no issue combating Sasuke's comparable speed and superior reach/cutting power due to his sword.

In conclusion:

- Kakashi is stronger and hits harder

- Kakashi is just as fast

- Kakashi is more durable

- Kakashi has more skill and can counter skilled opponents with blades, even while avoiding projectiles

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#8 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

Strength:

In terms of raw strength, I'd argue Kakashi is the stronger of the two, in terms of both hitting power and raw lifting strength.

I'll get to striking power later because I don't agree that Kakashi is superior in that area. I admit he's stronger physically since Sasuke doesn't really have a lot of material in that area. I don't think he's stronger by enough of a margin that it'll seriously affect the outcome of this fight, especially since physical strength isn't a huge factor to begin with.

Sasuke has cut off the tentacle of Gychi form Killer Bee. What's impressive is that he did this using the end of the sword which is the worst place to be cutting something from given he completely lacked any leverage. Also worth noting is the thickness of the tentacle. It looks around 10 times thicker than Karin when looked in proportion.

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And he tosses Sakura several feet through the air while tired from overuse of Mangekyo Sharingan (I'll elaborate more on that later).

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Finally there's one instance in the anime where Sakura lifts the mast of a ship and uses it as a bat. Sakura's admitted to being far below Naruto and Sasuke physically on a number of occasions (and given she was one-shotted by Gaara who Naruto proceeded to beat I'd say she was right) so it seems reasonable enough to say Sasuke has this level of strength. And to clarify yes this was before she was trained by Tsunade or learned how to use her techniques to amp her strength.

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That's about all there is. Realistically though I don't think physical strength will be a huge game changer. In a fight it's much more important how powerful characters strikes are in relation to their opponents durability. The only way physical strength could possibly come into play is if they end up locking arms but there's no reason they would and even if they do kicks can still be thrown in that position and Sasuke has abilities like Amaterasu and Susanoo that don't require him to move (I'll get to those later).

Not only that, but his striking power should be greater, too.

I don't agree with this notion actually. I'd say striking power is in Sasuke's favor. First though I feel I should point out that Kakashi's striking power has already proven incapable of giving him a serious advantage over Sasuke during their skirmish during the Kage Summit. You posted a GIF of Kakashi kicking Sasuke above but the full scan of this makes it clear that said kick was casually shrugged off by Sasuke:

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And later in this instance Sasuke tanks another hit from Kakashi that knocked him several feet up through the air and into a stone wall as well as the fall from this height. Kakshi was clearly hitting as hard as he could to send Sasuke flying this far, so evidently Sasuke can soak Kakashi's best hits.

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And what's even more impressive about this instance is that Sasuke was severely weakened at the time. He'd been using Mangekyo Sharingan throughout the whole Kage Summit arc and every time he does that it appears to cause him a good deal of pain. In fact, just before fighting Kakashi he'd just had a fight with Danzo where he used Susanoo (a Mangekyo Sharingan ability) for nearly the whole fight. As for the length of the fight, there's evidence it was a whole hour long here:

During the fight, Danzo was using the ability Izangi which shuts down whatever eye uses it after 60 seconds as timed by Karin here:

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And Danzo has 10 eyes all over his arm as confirmed by Obito.

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And here it's proven that the time for Izangi ran out during his fight with Sasuke and the only reason he thought otherwise was because Sasuke fooled him with a genjutsu.

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So all 10 of Danzo's Sharingan eyes went blind in his fight with Sasuke, and his eyes go blind 60 seconds after activating Izangi. This clearly indicates that the fight took place over a whole hour.

And Sasuke was using Susanoo for most of this fight. So he was weakened suffice to say. If he can shrug off Kakashi's hits while weakened and nearly blind he can obviously do it with full stamina.

Here's Obito tanking a Rasengan to the spine:

Obito was wearing a mask at the time so it's hard to say exactly how he responded to this hit. It's possible he was coughing blood like when Kakashi hit him or at least grimacing somewhat. At best he didn't cry out in pain so that's a nice pain threshold but he didn't cry out when Kakashi hit him either, he just seemed surprised.

In regards to Sasuke's own striking power, he's one-shotted a giant bear during Part 1. I'd say this would take more damage than doing what Minato did to that field when you consider the size of that bear. It was large enough that Sasuke appears to be of a similar size to it's ear alone, never mind it's much larger head and the rest of it's body. And this is Forest of Death Sasuke who didn't have Taijutsu training from Kakashi yet and didn't have his 3 years of training with Orochimaru-essentially he's nonexistent compared to the version in this battle.

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So I think striking power is an advantage for Sasuke.

Durability:

Now, I already know what sort of feats you're going to lay down.

Valley of the End, right? Sasuke being punched and slammed through rock and whatnot by KN0 and KN1?

Kakashi's been hit harder, by stronger Jinchuuriki. He takes a tail swipe from V2 Utakata.

I'd say there's a pretty huge contrast in the power of the hits being dished out by Naruto and Utakata in these instances. The hits Naruto is pummeling Sasuke with were absolutely wrecking the cliff face that Sasuke was being knocked into. This is far more environmental damage that was caused by Utakata hitting Kakashi. All that hit did was what, knock him back a few feet? That's not a level of damage comparable to what Naruto was doing in KN0. Also Kakashi only had to tank one hit from Utakata here, while Sasuke was being repetedly blitzed and hammered on by Naruto.

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Credit to you fro the scan/GIFS.

And this is without going into the hits Sasuke had to tank from KN1 Naruto which I'll bring up later.

The same Utakata that could hurl multiple trees with his tails:

And cause massive craters with his strikes:

Basically V2 Utakata > 1 Tailed Naruto.

Regarding how KN0 Naruto's strength compared with Utakata I don't agree. KN0 Naruto was strong enough to physically harm Manda with a punch. Manda as large as Gambata and Shukaku who both dwarf trees with their size.

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And later he physically pushes back Manda.

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So I'd say KN0 Naruto is stronger than Utakata even in his two tailed form, so a weak version of Sasuke who's fodder compared to the one being used here soaking up his attacks is a good deal more impressive.

Not only that, but we know how hard Kakazu hits, right?

He could casually stomp Choji:

Choji doesn't look very big here. He only seems to be twice as big as Kakuzu and can't be more than a foot taller.

Collapses the room of a building:

There's nothing suggesting that he collapsed anything in this scan. He just seems to knock up some dust and rock with a good shock wave. Impressive but not as much as you're suggesting.

And he kicks Kakashi square in the chest, yet he's able to fight just fine afterwards:

The damage done by this kick doesn't seem to do any more than dent a tree, so it doesn't seem like Kakuzu was hitting as hard as he could here.

Tanks Pain's Shinra Tensei, which was powerful enough to completely demolish a massive variant Kakashi's chakra enhanced mud wall.

Tanks it again. This time, it causes a crater.

In the first instance Pain was specifically not trying to kill people so he could find out where Naruto was so I doubt he was using enough power to seriously hurt Kakashi. In the next one Pain admittedly says he wants to kill Kakashi but the amount of power he used to do so doesn't seem very high if all he could do is make a crater when he know that Shinra Tensei is powerful enough to knock 3 multi-100 ton Gambata's flying several miles away. Do you really think if he was blasting as hard as he could Kakashi would survive? Making a crater is impressive but not really above what Sasuke can tank as I'll outline here.

In regards to Sasuke's own durability, he was doused with water which was then electrocuted and tanked it.

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And he tanked being in the center of an explosion from Deidara's C2 that looked quite larger (and other C2 blasts from Deidara were larger than trees) and didn't seem any bothered by it.

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And he's also blocked strikes from Killer Bee wielding the executioner blade, which as you mentioned above is too heavy for normal people to lift up. Killer Bee is also very strong himself as he could outmuscle his brother the Raikage who was strong enough to level all the ground in a room with a single strike and knock his brother flying through several platforms.

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So I don't think Kakashi is more durable than Sasuke at all. I think going by average showings they should be about even but Sasuke's high end feats against KN0 Naruto are above what Kakashi's high end feats.

Speed:

Now this is a much more important area seeing as speed is important in no matter how the fight ends up going. There's certainly some debate to be had about speed between these two but I think it's a solid advantage for Sasuke and that's going to be a hindrance for Kakashi during this fight that's going to play a part in giving Sasuke the win.

For one, he saved Sakura from Sasuke's Chidori at close range, from the looks of things, he'd only just gotten to the bridge, too.

Sasuke wasn't expecting him in this instance and we don't know how fast Sasuke was moving in this instance considering he was weakened at the time and I doubt he'd have moved as fast as he could if he was just trying to sucker shot Sakura of all people.

Dodges his kick and delivers one in response:

Dodges Sasuke's Chidori:

They stalemate in a short taijutsu clash. Kakashi had Sasuke on the backfoot throughout the exchange though, it's worth noting.

Been addressed - Sasuke was weakened in all of these instances.

What's important to note here is that Kakashi was struggling greatly with the idea of killing his former student. While true, Sasuke was going blind, he was healed by Karin shortly before the fight started and had Zetsu attached to him. He still had plenty left in the tank, seeing as he could stalemate Naruto in a Chidori/Rasengan clash.

Karin can heal wounds but I don't think she's ever shown she can restore Chakra reserves, which are what were giving Sasuke problems during the Kage Summit. In fact even after she healed him his vision was still blurring against Kakashi so he really wasn't at his best no matter how you chose to look at it. Him matching Naruto's Rasengan is just a testament to how powerful Sasuke's Chidori is.

He has other cool speed feats, like dodging Tendo Pain's kick and creating a rock wall. Pain can keep up with Sage Mode Naruto and Jiraya.

Not much to debunk here, but I think Sasuke has a feat that's just as good. Killer Bee isn't far behind Sage Mode characters himself given that's he's overwhelmed Sasuke with raw speed and made him use Sharingan to avoid, has ran from one peak of a mountain to another before being noticed, and has kept up with Itachi in a brief skirmish. Here Sasuke avoids him in midair when he's using One-tailed Gychi cloak, which should enhance his speed immensely seeing as Naruto could blitz people who normally blitzed him with his Zero-Tailed Kurama cloak. Bee even notes no one other than his brother the Raikage has managed to avoid him before.

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Dodges the explosion of Asura Pain's missiles and appears behind him:

Sasuke did essentially the same thing against Deidara.

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In a training exercise, his hand speed is too fast for Naruto or Sakura to follow.

It just looks like his hands are blurring rather than being completely imperceptible in that GIF. Sasuke has also done blitzed these versions of Naruto and Sakura in a far more impressive manner. Here he closes the gap between them and gets Naruto in an unfortunate position so fast they don't see him until he gets there. This is much more impressive than forming hand signals - a fairly swift motion that's - considering there was a significant distance between them when Sasuke did this (it looks about 50 feet long to me, and Sasuke was standing on high ground which he would've needed to climb down).

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Sasuke has also blitzed 5 water clones of Zabuza. Zabuza has speedblitzed a large mob without getting touched for a respectable period of time and even forced Kakashi himself to break out his Sharingan twice. Water Clones were noted as having 1/10 the power of the original earlier and Sasuke blitzed 5 of them so this is the same as blitzing someone with half of Zabuza's speed. And this is Sasuke from the earliest arc of the series who was getting blitzed by people as fast as later versions of himself.

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Once Sasuke's Sharingan developed he was capable of outreacting and anticipating attacks from Haku, who was moving fast enough to jump from mirror to mirror several times over before a drop of water hit the ground. Again, this is Part 1 Sasuke.

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And here he moved behind Sakura so fast it looked like he was teleporting. Sakura doesn't have many reaction feats but she does have a few moments like one instance of reacting to transformed Gaara who was so fast that an earlier Sasuke needed Sharingan to react to him, yet Sasuke blitzes her calmly.

Sorry for the weird text.
Sorry for the weird text.

Taijutsu

I agree Kakashi has more solid showings in this category, although I should point out he didn't land a hit on Kakuzu until they were on a narrow tree and Hidan actually scored solid hits on his twice when they fought. In regard to fighting people with skill though Sasuke has clashed swords with Killer Bee evenly for a few blows despite a large speed disadvantage. Killer Bee is skilled enough to simultaneously wield 8 blades and still fight effectively, so if Sasuke can match his skill he can match Kakashi's.

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In conclusion:

- Kakashi is stronger and hits harder

- Kakashi is just as fast

- Kakashi is more durable

- Kakashi has more skill and can counter skilled opponents with blades, even while avoiding projectiles

  1. Kakashi is stronger but you haven't proven his striking advantage.
  2. All the feats you've presented for Kakashi's speed have been matched by Sasuke without me even bringing up his best speed feats, which outclass Kakashi's.
  3. Sasuke can match all of Kakashi's durability showings and even exceed them with his better ones going by evidence presented.
  4. He might have more skill but Sasuke has already kept up with comparably skilled opponents and doesn't seem to be at any major disadvantage in physicals.

This should be enough for now. In my next post I'll go into Sasuke's versatility and what other abilities he has that will give him the win over Kakashi.

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#12 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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Round 2:

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Rebuttals:

In regards to Sasuke cutting through Gyuki's tail, it's worth noting he used a Chidori enhanced blade to do so, meaning the cutting power was like, infinitely sharper than what it would normally be. Gyuki's vulnerable to peircing/cutting damage at the best of times. Charging even a pencil with lightning chakra made it capable of going right through a tree trunk.

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And Sasuke didn't throw Sakura. Naruto grabbed her out of Sasuke's grasp. It's clearer in motion.

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In terms of striking power, Sasuke managed to block those punches, so of course they didn't do that much damage. It hurts more to be punched clean in the gut, like Obito was, compared to be punched while guarding yourself, like Sasuke was.

In regards to the fight with Danzo, I think your maths is a little off.

60 seconds is in a minute. If he had 10 eyes, that means 10 minutes, not an hour.

Now, in regards to Sasuke's bear feat, there are a few things I want to stress.

1) Bears are made of flesh, blood an bones. The ground that was destroyed by Minato's Rasengan was rock or some sort of stone. Rock is far, far denser.

2) Even animals can get sucker punched/kicked/whatever. It was focused totally on Karin so of course it wouldn't have been ready for Sasuke's attack

3) Bears have weak spots. He kicked the thing right on the head, that would drop most animals. The ground doesn't have those sorts of vulnerabilities, evidently.

Just look at the damage Minato's Rasengan did. It actually raised parts of the ground to make huge platforms.

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I'd say that's a lot more impressive than simply knocking out a bear.

Especially considering that the brunt of the impact was directed at Obito, the damage done to the area was either the AOE damage from the attack or the force of Obito himself hitting the ground:

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When you consider the fact that the size of Minato's Rasengan is consistent with the size of a giant Rasengan, you really get a sense of how powerful the attack must have been.

Naruto's early giant Rasengan:

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Minato's normal Rasengan:

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And we know the sort of damage that thing could do:

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Per the hierarchy of the universe, Sasuke punching harder than a Rasengan doesn't make much sense. It wasn't my intention to argue that Kakashi's punch > Rasengan, merely that a punch from him could do serious damage to someone that could survive one and still function right afterward.

Anyway, allow me to demonstrate where your logic is flawed.

Sasuke's punch can't even damage Gaara's sand cocoon.

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It takes the Chidori to do the job.

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Yet it only took out part of wall.

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And he was later jealous that Naruto's Rasengan was stronger than his Chidori, as seen by the damage both inflicted to the water tower.

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Sasuke hitting harder than Naruto's Rasengan is down right impossible, let alone Minato's.

On to Kakashi's feats...

Durability:

Now, you've outlined some pretty impressive things from Sasuke, however, I still think Kakashi is the more durable of the two.

Like when Kakashi tanked Kakazu's Wind Style: Pressure Damage.

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Per the databook, you're more or less being hit by a tornado.

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In regards to your point on Pain holding back to find out where the 9 Tails was, he knew Kakashi wasn't going to tell him. He asked once and then just went for the kill. He was willing to impale Kakashi on Asura's buzzsaw tail.

Anyway, now, Kakazu did reduce part of that building to rubble. After his punch, we see the results in the anime.

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As for the kick Kakazu delivered to Kakashi, it brought down multiple trees, which are clearly seen falling at the end of the gif.

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This isn't even counting his best durability feat.

Tanking a Sage Mode Rasengan clean to the chest without even being KO'd. Remember how powerful Minato's Rasengan is? Well, in Sage Mode, his Rasengan would be much more powerful. Impressive, considering Kakashi was conscious to hear all of Obito's short speech afterwards.

(Read left to right)

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In comparison, Sasuke would've died against Killer B's V1 lariat without Jugo's body/chakra transfer. Now, I don't want to get into a huge debate over which attack is stronger, but at bare minimum, the two attacks are on the same level.

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Now, with these feats Kakashi should be the more durable of the two, even considering Sasuke's high end feats from VotE.

Speed:

Now, that speed feat by Sasuke is impressive. But are we forgetting the fact that Team 7 was exhausted from Naruto's Transformation into the 4 Tails? Naruto collapsed while running Sasuke moments before, Sakura was knocked twice before on that same day, Yamato had to save Sakura then monitor and restrain Naruto etc. The only one who wasn't completely drained when facing Sasuke was Sai, who actually did react to Sasuke.

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Killer B's lariat, while fast, is still a linear move. It's a lot easier to react to than say, multiple strikes from Obito, who's proven fast enough to react to the Raikage, Minato, Gyuki's tentacles, Gai and KCM Naruto.

Obito's best speed feat likely came when he reacted to get Sasuke out of Onoki's particle style before it detonated, without anyone in the room seeing him. That's crazy impressive.

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Here's Kakashi reacting to him in a highspeed sequence of moves:

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If we're going by Part 1 feats, Kakashi could throw Naruto and Sasuke aside while both going so fast that neither could react to stop themselves (which would require them going their top speeds, no?):

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So using Part 1 Sasuke as a benchmark isn't a good idea.

Anyway, here's a damned impressive speed feat from Kakashi - reacting to save Choji and Shikamaru from Kakazu's lightning style at close range, right after being hit by Kakazu's Wind Style: Pressure Damage.

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Taijutsu:

Hidan did land some solid hits, but the point is that Kakashi can avoid blade swings, which is what Sasuke's offense will mostly consist of. In any case, Killer B was screwing around the whole time against Taka and didn't take them seriously throughout any of the fight. They even agreed to go all out, like they were going to kill him. Depsite this, B tooled the hell out of Sasuke's whole squad before Suigetsu suckered him in.

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In comparison, Kakashi held his own in an awesome taijutsu clash with Obito, while demonstrating some ridiculous skill.

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It's even the little things, like how he kicks the blade into Obito's face after it gets knocked out of his hand, or when he managed to escape his armbar/grapple thing that traps him on the ground etc. It's just another demonstration of how Kakashi is indeed more skilled than Sasuke by a noticeable margin. The edge is large enough to certainly have an impact on the outcome of this fight.

In Conclusion:

- I've proven Kakashi's edge in striking power

- Kakashi's speed feats still match up nicely with Kakashi's and I still have a number of feats I've yet to cover

- Kakashi has greater durability

- Kakashi has a noticeable edge in skill

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#13 Posted by Just_Banter (12297 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v please..

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#14 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by Just_Banter (12297 posts) - - Show Bio

@just_banter said:

t4v please..

Will do.

and just quickly, was that thing above a post, or was it for comedic purposes, because it seems a bit short

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#16 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@just_banter said:
@comicstooge said:

@just_banter said:

t4v please..

Will do.

and just quickly, was that thing above a post, or was it for comedic purposes, because it seems a bit short

It's to mark my place. I'll come back and actually do the response, but I'm just bumping so I can get to it easier.

I lost my response by accidentally pressing the back button.

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#17 Posted by MudaMudaMuda (5354 posts) - - Show Bio

Best CaV I've seen in a while. T4V please. :)

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#18 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Edited by kgb725 (17951 posts) - - Show Bio

Sasuke goes blind

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#20 Posted by Kramotz (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

Itachi comes in and ****s them both up.

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#21 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@kgb725 said:

Sasuke goes blind

@kramotz said:

Itachi comes in and ****s them both up.

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#22 Posted by andr413 (3309 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool. Kakashi wins with extreme difficulty

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#23 Posted by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

Rebuttals:

In regards to Sasuke cutting through Gyuki's tail, it's worth noting he used a Chidori enhanced blade to do so, meaning the cutting power was like, infinitely sharper than what it would normally be. Gyuki's vulnerable to peircing/cutting damage at the best of times. Charging even a pencil with lightning chakra made it capable of going right through a tree trunk.

This would still require the strength to drive it through Gyuki's tentacle regardless of weather or not it's piercing capacity was enhanced. Also, Bee amped that Pencil with stream chakra, not Chidori's like Sasuke uses and Chidori sword doesn't have any feats like that.

And Sasuke didn't throw Sakura. Naruto grabbed her out of Sasuke's grasp. It's clearer in motion.

No it's not. He's still clearly posed to throw her and there's no reason he'd be in that position if he hadn't, or at least if he wasn't clearly capable of making that motion.

In terms of striking power, Sasuke managed to block those punches, so of course they didn't do that much damage. It hurts more to be punched clean in the gut, like Obito was, compared to be punched while guarding yourself, like Sasuke was.

Being able to block punches is something Sasuke can still do in this fight so it seems entirely applicable. Kakashi hasn't delivered this kind of power against someone capable of defending themselves. Obito didn't expect Kakashi to be able to touch him when he was using Kamui and he's not known for his physicals anyway.

In regards to the fight with Danzo, I think your maths is a little off.

60 seconds is in a minute. If he had 10 eyes, that means 10 minutes, not an hour.

Well that seems like a pretty big brain fart in hindsight, but the point is still relevant. Even if it was only 10 minutes using a technique that was badly draining Sasuke would've weakened him no doubt (his perception of Kakashi was actually blurring when they fought) and there's no way that wasn't a factor.

In regards to striking power, I think we're getting too hung up on their inherit striking power. Neither of our characters are restricted to purely standard blows when they have one mutual ability to amp their striking power: Chidori. For the uninitiated Chidori is where Sasuke/Kakashi amps their punches by charging their hands with lighting chakra to a devestating effect. If their respective Chidori's come to blow I think Sasuke has the feats to justify his coming on top.

After just learning Chidori Sasuke was capable of blowing large holes in rocks with it.

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And he's capable of shredding through walls as an indirect result of touching them with Chidori in part 1.

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And he's been able to hurt Killer Bee with a Chidori. Granted he was doused in water before hand but the amount of water was honestly rather small and only on spots of Bee it would've been impossible for Sasuke to reach given he'd have to have electrocuted Suigetsu doing so. Killer Bee is durable enough to tank punches from his brother the Raikage which knocked him clean through several solid stone platforms and Raikage's striking power will be elaborated on later.

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Also, you argued that Rasengan was more powerful than Chidori above based on Sasuke feeling inadequate after Naruto blew open that water tower but it's worth noting that Sasuke was recovering from an earlier fight in this instance and it's seriously doubtful he used his full power Chidori given he didn't particularly want to kill Naruto and later he actually showed he could punch through Naruto with Chidori at the Valley of the End. I think there's more to support the notion that Sasuke's Chidori>Rasengan than the other way around.

For one thing they already stalemated in a clash during the Kage summit despite Sasuke being weakened from his fights with Danzo and Kakashi while Naruto wasn't particularly weakened. The resulting shockwave is huge so Naruto was clearly trying fairly hard in this instance.

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And then we can compare their respective showings against the Thunder God Sword. Sasuke manages to crack it with a Chidori.

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Later Naruto tried to achieve the same effect with a Rasengan, but failed to make any such crack. And Sasuke hit the sword before Naruto tried this so if anything the sword was weakened by Sasuke's efforts (Naruto only managed to destroy the sword eventually because he hit the spot where Sasuke already damaged it).

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Naruto has a plethora of feats with Rasengan that trump Kakashi's feats with Chidori, like knocking Kabuto flying through multiple stone columns, causing large craters on the ground when it was first used, knocking the Raikage's attack off course and ripping apart a water tower as shown above. If it isn't powerful enough to completely match Sasuke's Chidori how is Kakashi supposed to?

Durability:

Like when Kakashi tanked Kakazu's Wind Style: Pressure Damage.

Per the databook, you're more or less being hit by a tornado.

I'd say that's a bit of a hyperbole on the databook's part considering the actual damage done by Kakuzu's attack wasn't anywhere near that of a tornado. In fact for the most part a good deal of trees managed to withstand it as did normal sized Choji and Shikarmaru who aren't noted as very impressive combatants compared to Sasuke.

In regards to your point on Pain holding back to find out where the 9 Tails was, he knew Kakashi wasn't going to tell him. He asked once and then just went for the kill. He was willing to impale Kakashi on Asura's buzzsaw tail.

The point is there's no way he was using his most powerful blasts on Kakashi since that would imply that he's more durable than Gambata. It's impressive durability, but only of the level where he can make craters, something that Sasuke can handle like child's play using one of his abilities which I'll get to later.

I'd also say Sasuke has matched this feat by tanking a punch from transformed Gaara that knocked him through trees. Gaara while transformed was capable of destroying sections of a forest just by running through and doing damage easily comparable to what Kakuzu did above. It should also be considered that Sasuke was getting exhausted from using Chidori earlier on and even flashed back to learning about Chidori's limits and proceeded to use cursed seal to compensate for his overused Chakra.

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Sasuke also tanked a punch from Killer Bee, who's been established as having multi-ton striking power.

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This isn't even counting his best durability feat.

Tanking a Sage Mode Rasengan clean to the chest without even being KO'd. Remember how powerful Minato's Rasengan is? Well, in Sage Mode, his Rasengan would be much more powerful. Impressive, considering Kakashi was conscious to hear all of Obito's short speech afterwards.

Minato didn't cause that damage with a thrown Rasengan, he caused it with direct contact one. Those aren't of identical power. Also it's hard to say how much Sage Mode helped given Minato admitted his wasn't very good.

In comparison, Sasuke would've died against Killer B's V1 lariat without Jugo's body/chakra transfer. Now, I don't want to get into a huge debate over which attack is stronger, but at bare minimum, the two attacks are on the same level.

Good for Bee? Sorry but Bee's strength has never really been tested in Gyuchi cloak and he has multi-ton striking feats without it so this just seems like a good feats for Bee. You also need to consider the distance this hit knocked him, which is above how far Rasengan knocked Kakashi.

Now thus far I've only argued for the durability of Sasuke's body. Sasuke can become much more durable by using one of the Mangekyo Sharingan abilities: Susanoo. Susanoo is where someone created an energy avatar of a skeletal warrior around them. Sasuke with an incomplete Susanoo has durability feats beyond what Kakashi is capable of punching through with anything short of Chidori.

For one thing he resisted Danzo's winds which were blowing apart stone pillars.

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He also tanked a full powered piledriver from the Raikage with just Susanoo's newly formed ribcage. This attack completely disleveled the ground of the large room where they were fighting in but it didn't even dent a partially formed Susanoo. This level of striking power is beyond anything Kakashi can dish out with or possibly even without Chidori.

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Once the rest of incomplete Susanoo formed, Sasuke was capable of tanking a large collective attack from all the assembled Shinobi despite all of them trying to kill him and using their most powerful attacks in doing so. The resulting explosion is large enough to dwarf all of the assembled Ninja but Sasuke emerges unscathed. Temari alone has leveled large sections of forest with single blasts nevermind the other people assembled.

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And to make this more impressive this is all before Sasuke completed Susanoo which he managed to during his encounter with Naruto and Kakashi and the contrast is clear with Karin even noting his chakra is colder than ever and Kakashi specifically becoming worried about his power:

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So he should be capable of all the feats above at an even greater quality.

Speed:

Now, that speed feat by Sasuke is impressive. But are we forgetting the fact that Team 7 was exhausted from Naruto's Transformation into the 4 Tails? Naruto collapsed while running Sasuke moments before, Sakura was knocked twicebefore on that same day, Yamato had to save Sakura then monitor and restrain Naruto etc. The only one who wasn't completely drained when facing Sasuke was Sai, who actually did react to Sasuke.

Being exhausted doesn't affect a characters perception speed, just their ability to physically move out of the way of something. In this instance it was clear Naruto couldn't just not move out of the way of Sasuke, but wasn't even aware he'd move until Sasuke reached him. Sai reacting to him is a feat for Sai.

Killer B's lariat, while fast, is still a linear move. It's a lot easier to react to than say, multiple strikes from Obito, who's proven fast enough to react to the Raikage, Minato, Gyuki's tentacles, Gai and KCM Naruto.

But Bee without even amping himself has traveled from one cliff peak to another unnoticed. That's not a level of raw speed Obito has ever matched. Obito doesn't have as many quantifiable reaction feats as Sasuke and I don't even recall him reacting to those people and even if he did just reacting to them doesn't make him as fast as Sasuke.

Obito's best speed feat likely came when he reacted to get Sasuke out of Onoki's particle style before it detonated, without anyone in the room seeing him. That's crazy impressive.

Not really. Onoki's blast created a good deal of smoke so the result wasn't visible. At best this is explosion speed on Obito's part. I also do't think Kamui BFR is really visible, at least not more so than the cut and dry smoke cause of Ononki.

If we're going by Part 1 feats, Kakashi could throw Naruto and Sasuke aside while both going so fast that neither could react to stop themselves (which would require them going their top speeds, no?):

They weren't even trying to react to stop themselves so I don't see your point. Sasuke in particular was mid-air so there'd be no way for him to move as fast as possible.

Here's one feat from Sasuke you'll struggle to have Kakashi match. After training for a month to replicate Rock Lee's speed and skill he was capable of flawlessly replicating the speed of weightless Lee. Lee with weights on moved to fast for pre-training Sasuke to see (and even then he had impressive reaction time as I'll show later) and blitzed Sound Ninja who boasted have sound level movement speed. Despite this speed he couldn't get passed Gaara's sand but with weights off he blitzed clean through it despite Gaara being able to react to explosions and sonic blasts. This would require at least roughly supersonic speed on Sasuke's part at a very early stage, and given this version of Sasuke wouldn't be capable of even seeing his Kage Summit self this should be indicative of comfortable hypersonic speed for Sasuke.

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Sasuke was also capable of outreacting Haku with his 2-tomned Sharingan even before the above training when Haku was moving fast enough to jump from mirror to mirror at imperceptible speeds so fast that water seemed frozen in the air relative to him.

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Taijutsu:

Hidan did land some solid hits, but the point is that Kakashi can avoid blade swings, which is what Sasuke's offense will mostly consist of. In any case, Killer B was screwing around the whole time against Taka and didn't take them seriously throughout any of the fight. They even agreed to go all out, like they were going to kill him. Depsite this, B tooled the hell out of Sasuke's whole squad before Suigetsu suckered him in.

Let's not pretend Sasuke had any major help here. Suigetus and Juugo don't have any real speed feats to suggest they mattered. I should also point out Hidan has admitted he's the slowest of the Akatsuki which would presumably include Deidara, someone who was amazed by Sasuke's speed.

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Again he's amazed by Sasuke's speed when he avoids a huge explosion.

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But I think we're hanging up on physical abilities too much. Neither of these characters are restricted to purely hand to hand and we'd have to be restricting them to only focus on those. I'll outline Sasuke's powerset and how it's capable of overcoming Kakashi and his capabilities.

Amaterasu:

Amaterasu is another Mangekyo Sharingan ability. It causes a black flame to manifest on whatever the user focuses their eyes on. Unsurprisingly it's a very difficult attack to avoid unless there's a large speed disparity between the user and his opponent.

In regards to how large a radius Amaterasu can encompass, Sasuke has made it as large as Bijuu mode Bee, who's large enough to tower over trees. Kakashi isn't capable of escaping the radius of an attack like this.

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And as for it's power we can see it's capable of making Bee scream in pain despite his size and durability. Another example of Amaterasu's power is Itachi using it to burn through Sasuke's regular fire attacks. And Amaterasu was an ability specifically transferred to Sasuke by Itachi so this should apply to him as well.

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This is an attack that's nearly impossible to avoid, and downright impossible for Kakashi to tank. If Sasuke thinks to use this it could very well end in a quick one-shot for him.

Sasuke also has defensive applications for Amaterasu, like using it to light Susanoo's ribcage on fire forcing the Raikage to lose his arm just tagging Sasuke.

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Genjutsu:

Sasuke has pretty potent Genjutsu which I don't think Kakashi is capable of handling. He's shown the ability to casually dispatch people (in this instance Sui) with a single, solid illusion.

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And Sharingan won't help Kakashi see through Sasuke's Genjutsu either. Danzo had Sharingan but he was still effected by well-timed Genjutsu.

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Susanoo Arrow:

Possibly Sasuke's greatest edge over Kakashi. Sasuke Susanoo can turn into a different form where it wields a bow and arrow. The arrows it can fire in this state are so fast that Kakashi himself admitted that he was incapable of physically moving out of the way of one and had to use Kamui to BFR it. Using Kamui takes a huge toll on Kakashi and usually hospitalizes him for a week. If Sasuke keeps firing these arrows Kakashi will have to abuse it and the tax this takes on his stamina is just too much.

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In Conclusion:

  1. When comparing their respective Chidori's Sasuke comes out on top which will allow him to gain the advantage in striking power.
  2. Susanoo hugely outclasses Kakashi in durability and will force him to use his most powerful attacks to get through.
  3. Sasuke has better speed than Sasuke even without his best feats.
  4. Sasuke has a wider and more useful pool of abilities that will give him the versatility edge over Kakashi which is largely important for securing the win here.
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#24 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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Round 3:

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I agree with your assessment on raw strength and striking power. They won't have a huge impact on this match. With that said, let's cover their respective lightning techniques, shall we?

Raikiri:

For one, Kakashi did the same thing Sasuke did when he was a child.

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And with The 2nd Hokage's sword, aren't you forgetting that lightning techniques cancel out other lightning techniques?

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Naruto and Sasuke proved equal at the Valley of the End when they clashed.

Kakashi's Raikiri pierced clean through Obito.

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The same Obito who tanked Minato's Rasengan:

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Naruto's Rasengan:

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Twice:

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Rasengan and Raikiri deliver different types of damage. Raikiri pierces while Rasengan crushes.

I really don't see either attack being stronger than the other, tbh. Especially when lightning techniques cancel one another out if they're of a high enough level.

If you recall, Kakashi blocked False Darkness this way.

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Anyway, to finish up speed.

Speed:

Kakashi is fast enough to tag two-tailed Naruto before he could react.

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He reacted to cut actual lightning.

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What speed feats does Sasuke have to put him above that?

Damage output:

Susanoo is durable, but it can be damaged.

For one, the Raikage's chop damaged Susanoo.

You see Sasuke's head jerk back from the chop and when he falls over, he coughs up blood. He was clearly wounded.

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And Danzo busted a gap in it.

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Kakashi has an attack that would do damage - Lightning Transmission.

It cut clean through a V2 Jinchuriki's arms.

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Also, Sasuke's Susanoo is vulnerable to water techniques, it seems.

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Kakashi has various water jutsu, such as the Water Dragon which we've seen he can do incredibly fast as of Part 2:

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Shark Bombs:

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And the great Waterfall technique:

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Countering Mangekyou Sharingan

Kakashi has a way around Amaterasu - Hiding in the Mist. If he can't see Kakashi, he has nothing to aim at. This gives Kakashi a chance to get out of view.

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Genjutsu:

I'd argue Kakashi's genjutsu is > Sasuke's, actually.

He put 2 guys to sleep with it and the genjutsu placed false memories in their heads they were watching Naruto (when they weren't). I know, not the most impressive thing, but still, a showing is a showing.

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And he stalemated Obito in a genjutsu battle:

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The same Obito who had the 4th Mizukage (a perfect jinchuriki) under his control for years, was controlling Kurama at 14 and killed Konan with a genjutsu. Danzo was both arrogant and generally pretty terrible at using his Sharingan. Kakashi is neither of those things.

Stamina

You mention how Kamui puts Kakashi in the hospital after a few uses. By the 4th Ninja War, this simply isn't true. Over the course of the war, he fought the first day of the war against the Swordsmen and into the second day they fought Obito's Six Paths then Obito himself, before Kakashi finally collapsed.

These are just the techniques we saw him pull off.

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If we include anime (which we are) this gets even more ridiculous.

Here, he uses Multi-Mud Wall (there's got to be at least a dozen walls making that thing up) which was capable of protecting him and Gai from a number of explosions and he uses Raikiri once more:

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That means his stamina allows him to use:

- 9 Raikiri (including more taxing variants like Lightning Transmission)

- 2 Shadow Clones

- 5 Kamui

- 12+ Mud Walls

This is only what we saw him do. He fought for almost two days straight.

Basically, Kakashi had excellent stamina during the war. More then enough to go the distance with Sasuke.

In comparison, Sasuke's stamina will drop very fast. He would've died against the Kages had Zetsu not recharged him and using Susanoo alone puts massive strain on his body.

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In conclusion:

- There's not much to suggest Kakashi's Raikiri is any weaker than Sasuke's Chidori, in fact, by feats it's likely stronger

- Kakashi can still get through Susanoo, especially because he has Water Style, Sasuke's Susanoo's weakness

- By the War, Kakashi's stamina had improved massively, in comparison to Sasuke who'll burn through his chakra pool very quickly with all his Sharingan abilities

- Kakashi still has plenty of tools to counter what Sasuke is bringing to the table

- I've yet to cover tactical skill, which is another advantage the (future) 6th Hokage has

- Speed is still even, Steven

- Kakashi's genjutsu is better

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#25 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Well sh!t.

This is gonna be harder than I thought.

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#27 Edited by KCMinato (2458 posts) - - Show Bio

GO!!1 Team kakashi

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#28 Posted by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge:

Raikiri:

For one, Kakashi did the same thing Sasuke did when he was a child.

No he didn't. He's just made some dirt fly up by running past it. Sasuke actually shredded a wall by what amounts to tapping on it.

And with The 2nd Hokage's sword, aren't you forgetting that lightning techniques cancel out other lightning techniques?

If that were in effect then wouldn't it hinder Chidori equally? If they cancel each other out then I don't see how this could exclusively benefit Chidori.

Naruto and Sasuke proved equal at the Valley of the End when they clashed.

They weren't in standard forms then. Naruto was using Kurama's chakra while Sasuke was using cursed seal. No comparison has ever been made between how effective these amps are and Naruto actually has better feats in his Zero and One tailed forms than anyone does with cursed seal.

Kakashi's Raikiri pierced clean through Obito.

You can clearly see he's using a Kunai here which is probably what did most of the work. If Kakashi tries to amp his Kunai with Raikiri Sasuke can accomplish the same effect with Chidori, only when their sword/kunai's clash Kakashi will end up with a broken Kunai because not only does Sasuke use a Sword of Kusanagi (which can cut through diamond hard staffs), but Sasuke has more feats as far as amping blades goes, like breaking Yamato's kunai with his sword.

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Or here when he deflects the Samurai's chakra blasts which were shown to shred pillars.

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And knocking away Gychi's tail, which was much larger than Sasuke himself.

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I really don't see either attack being stronger than the other, tbh. Especially when lightning techniques cancel one another out if they're of a high enough level.

They do - but as shown with Tobirama's sword it seems like the more powerful technique can overpower the weaker one, and I can very well assert than Chidori is a more powerful attack by feats. Like when Sasuke busts through Gaara's sand barrier with a single blow and still has enough force to blow through Gaara's personal sand armor (which can tank small explosions and punches from multi-tonners). Impressive considering Sasuke's regular punches were having no effect other than making his fist bleed on contact despite the bear one-shotting strength shown above.

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Speed:

Kakashi is fast enough to tag two-tailed Naruto before he could react.

Naruto doesn't look like he's expecting it here.

He reacted to cut actual lightning.

By the looks of it he was already moving toward where the bolt would go before it fired and then it just struck his hand. I'm not seeing actual lightning timing here.

As for more proof of Sasuke's speed advantage, here he defeats an entire army alone. The exact size of this army is unclear but you can see that the nearby hill is positively strewn with knocked out Ninja bodies presumably because Sasuke put them there. Further impressive is the complete ease Sasuke appears to have done this. He's not even breathing hard and doesn't seem to have exerted himself in the slightest. This would presumably mean he didn't use any Chakra, which would strongly imply that all he used was his fists and his sword. He actually avoided killing any of them and didn't have any blood on his sword, so all the sword really could've done was have the flat of it serve as a bludgeon which isn't even very practical. I haven't seen this level of combat speed from Kakashi.

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In addition when Sasuke's Sharingan fully developed he was capable of easily outreacting and outfighting Zero Tailed Naruto. Naruto in this form has ludicrous speed feats, like blitzing Haku who has blur speed as shown above, making shockwaves while punching the air, and making wooden beams light on fire just by running past them. The latter two were actually performed during this fight. This is late Part 1 Sasuke who had accomplished all of his speed feats from Part 1 by this point, like outreacting Haku and matching Lee's supersonic speed against Gaara and he was getting badly blitzed until Sharingan kicked in.

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Damage output:

Susanoo is durable, but it can be damaged.

For one, the Raikage's chop damaged Susanoo.

You see Sasuke's head jerk back from the chop and when he falls over, he coughs up blood. He was clearly wounded.

I know we agreed to use Anime feats but this is very inconsistent with the Manga where the Raikage did no such damage to Sasuke.

And Danzo busted a gap in it.

He only accomplished this with extremely powerful wind attacks which Kakashi doesn't have.

As for dealing with lightning transmission and water attacks, Sasuke can simply avoid those. He has a Hawk summon which he called on mid-air in unideal conditions so he can summon it mid-battle here for sure. With this he should be able to avoid Kakashi's attacks and snipe him down with Susanoo arrow, Amaterasu and Fireballs.

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Countering Mangekyou Sharingan

Kakashi has a way around Amaterasu - Hiding in the Mist. If he can't see Kakashi, he has nothing to aim at. This gives Kakashi a chance to get out of view.

None of this helps if he doesn't know about Amaterasu. Without prior knowledge he won't know to avoid Sasuke's eyesight and he won't have enough time to figure out. In addition Sasuke can deal with mist by flying out of range and bombing Kakashi with Katon's, a non-Mangekyo Sharingan ability that won't tax Sasuke's chakra. As for how powerful Sasuke's fireballs are, he matched the same ability when it was used by Itachi.

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And oddly enough I'll use your own clip to showcase Itachi's firepower. Here, when he was restricted the 30 percent of his Chakra, he managed to make a fireball so large and powerful it made a huge explosion larger than trees which shook the ground.

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Genjutsu:

Weather or not Kakashi is superior in this aspect doesn't really matter. He's never shown the ability to genjutsu a Sharingan user. Him and Obito "stalemating" in genjutsu isn't and quantifiable showing considering neither of them actually seemed affected by the others genjutsu. They were just trying and failing the effect each other so it doesn't suggest Kakashi's genjutsu equates to Obito's. Sasuke however has bypassed Sharingan's genjutsu defenses and can do it to Kakashi here.

Stamina

You mention how Kamui puts Kakashi in the hospital after a few uses. By the 4th Ninja War, this simply isn't true. Over the course of the war, he fought the first day of the war against the Swordsmen and into the second day they fought Obito's Six Paths then Obito himself, before Kakashi finally collapsed.

I think we should remember that Kurama amped Kakashi midway through this whole buisness and that helped with his reserves immensely. Regardless I am willing to concede that stamina isn't as big an issue for Kakashi as I thought, but Kakashi still has problems with repeated use of Kamui seeing as he collapsed after fighting Obito directly after using Kamui to tag him. Sasuke knows that Kakashi needs to tax himself to counter Susanoo arrows and it's not at all hard to capitalize on this.

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#29 Posted by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Well that was quick. Anyway you seem to want to do another post so I guess you can do one more, then I can do one more and then we can open up for votes?

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#31 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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@highaccuser said:

For one, Kakashi did the same thing Sasuke did when he was a child.

No he didn't. He's just made some dirt fly up by running past it. Sasuke actually shredded a wall by what amounts to tapping on it.

It did. Look again.

The wall they were behind didn't have the hole in it for Kakashi to run through.

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We literally see him bore a hole right through it. His hand connects with the wall and destroys a large part of it.

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It's the hole he ran through.

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@highaccuser said:

Naruto and Sasuke proved equal at the Valley of the End when they clashed.

They weren't in standard forms then.

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You sure?

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The attacks are equal. Sasuke even admits that when he says they'll only stalemate if they connect with each other again.

@highaccuser said:

Kakashi's Raikiri pierced clean through Obito.

You can clearly see he's using a Kunai here which is probably what did most of the work. If Kakashi tries to amp his Kunai with Raikiri Sasuke can accomplish the same effect with Chidori, only when their sword/kunai's clash Kakashi will end up with a broken Kunai because not only does Sasuke use a Sword of Kusanagi (which can cut through diamond hard staffs), but Sasuke has more feats as far as amping blades goes, like breaking Yamato's kunai with his sword.

Or here when he deflects the Samurai's chakra blasts which were shown to shred pillars.

And knocking away Gychi's tail, which was much larger than Sasuke himself.

I really don't see either attack being stronger than the other, tbh. Especially when lightning techniques cancel one another out if they're of a high enough level.

They do - but as shown with Tobirama's sword it seems like the more powerful technique can overpower the weaker one, and I can very well assert than Chidori is a more powerful attack by feats. Like when Sasuke busts through Gaara's sand barrier with a single blow and still has enough force to blow through Gaara's personal sand armor (which can tank small explosions and punches from multi-tonners). Impressive considering Sasuke's regular punches were having no effect other than making his fist bleed on contact despite the bear one-shotting strength shown above.

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Sasuke's sword isn't the actual Sword of Kusanagi. That sword is still with Orochimaru - he used it to try and cut Naruto, remember?

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And normal blades can block Sasuke's sword if chakra is charged through them. Mifune's did, after all.

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And as for Kakashi's kunai doing all the work.

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So Kakashi can still counter Sasuke's sword even if it's charged with lightning. His sword might be durable, but regular blades can counter it when charged with lightning style chakra to negate the attack.

Speed:

Taking out an army of fodder is pretty impressive, but Kakashi keeping up with Obito matches anything Sasuke has done .

He would've tagged KCM Naruto without Guy's intervention. KMC Naruto is so much faster than Part1 Naruto that they're not even comparable.

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Managed to grab Minato:

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And managed to teleport in, grab Sasuke then teleport out of Onoki's dust release without any noticing.

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Catches Minato with chains:

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Would've tagged Minato first had he not teleported:

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Yet Kakashi kept up with Obito in their fight.

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If he didn't get blitzed by Obito, he won't get blitzed by Sasuke.

Damage output:

Sasuke was coughing up blood while fighting the Mizukage. The Raikage did damage him, it was just more obvious in the anime.

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And you'r right, Kakashi doesn't Danzo's wind style blasts, but he has a number of Lightning Styles techniques like Lightning Transmission that will do the trick.

Also, if we're talking about anime feats, Kakashi has a fireball jutsu too.

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This is the damage it did.

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Furthermore, in your scan, Sasuke's Curse Mark was amping his fire style considerably. He doesn't have it here.

Anyway, Kakashi's mud-wall should be able to block Sasuke's fire style.

It blocked Obito's fireball technique.

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And Obito's output matched freaking Madara's.

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Stamina:

That image I posted of Kakashi's stamina collected up were all before Kurama recharged Kakashi.

In any case, Sasuke can't just spam Susanoo arrows nonstop. He fired one at Danzo, then it took him a little while to charge up another.

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And anyway, Kakashi knows that the Mangekyou drains a person a lot too.

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He can pressure him with clones. Even an exhuasted Kakashi from part one could use the Multi-Shadow Clone jutsu.

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Genjutsu:

If Kakashi used his own genjutsu against Obito, wouldn't that mean he knew Obito was using one against him and countered with his own? I don't see why they'd get the same bright idea at the same time. Regardless, Danzo was overconfident and distracted due to his focus on Izunagi and still only got caught for a split second. Kakashi is far shrewder, more intelligent and has experience in avoiding ocular genjutsu. He won't look into Sasuke's eyes:

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Even if he does get caught he's shown high level genjutsu skills (against Obito) and he's shown he can recognize and release genjutsu when they're applied - he broke Kabuto's genjutsu during the Chunin Exams.

In short, Kakashi won't end up caught in any of Sasuke's genjutsu and he should be able to counter them if he does.

Now, I've yet to cover Kakashi's ace in the hole...

Kamui

It's a technique that warps away stuff into another dimension, as you know.

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An exhausted, wounded Kakashi who's no longer able to move warps away a nail moving faster than sound.

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Warps away two of Sasuke's Susanoo arrows at once. He got much better at the use of Kamui during the war and his stamina increased as well.

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As for Sasuke's bird, Kakashi tagged Deidara while the Akatsuki member was riding his clay summoning. He was inexperienced in it's use and even admitted his aim was terrible at this stage:

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Deidara's bird is far faster than Sasuke's. It can dodge Gaara's supersonic sand.

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So if Kakashi can tag Deidara on his bird, he can tag Sasuke on his.

Uses Kamui fast enough to warp away an explosion:

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Warps away KCM Naruto's Rasengan while he was moving. KCM Naruto is among the fastest characters in the series, yet Kakashi warped away something in his hand. He can certainly tag Sasuke.

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In terms of it warping away something as durable as Susanoo, how about Juubidara's shield?

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And as for size, while amped by Kurama's chakra, he warps the 8 Tails:

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He admits he's 3 times more poweful:

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Still, 1/3 of the Hachibi is larger than Sasuke's Susanoo.

Even without an amp, Kakashi warped off the arm of the Gedo Statue.

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Intelligence/Strategy:

This is overall the thing that ties my argument together. Kakashi's intelligence and use of strategy is his main weapon here.

Naruto admitted he's smarter than Shikamaru. That might not be true, but still, it's high praise coming from someone who went on so many missions with him (if we're counting anime filler, which we are).

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And Gai and Naruto relied on his analytical abilities during the 4th Ninja War:

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Despite Itachi's vastly superior speed, Kakashi sees through his strategy, counters it and saves Kurenai:

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Has a clone jump out of the ground to get Obito. Thinking it's the real one, Obito goes to attack only for it to be a Lightning clone.

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Tricks Pain with a lightning clone:

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Fools Itachi by making him use genjutsu on a clone, giving Naruto the opportunity to take him out.

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Figures out how Obito's jutsu works, then later counters it.

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Choza comments on how Kakashi uses clones to figure out his opponents abilities:

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Kakazu was getting irritated by his use of substitution:

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Susanoo is hollow, meaning someone can jump inside it from below. That's how Gaara pulled Madara out of his.

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And Kakashi has the perfect attack to do the same. His hiding in the ground jutsu gives him the chance to jump into Sasuke's Susanoo and surprise him there, even potentially using a Lightning Clone.

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He even saw through Sasuke's strategy to try and kill Sakura with the shuriken:

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Even as a kid, Kakashi was strategic enough to keep Minato on his toes.

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Sasuke is smart, but I'd argue Kakashi is his superior in terms of tactical ability.

In conclusion:

- The two are relatively even in terms of speed even if Sasuke does have an edge in speed, it's absolutely fractional

- Kakashi's greater skill, intelligence and usage of tactics makes this his fight to lose

- Kakasi's Kamui is a trump card for him. He can warp away Susanoo arrows, snipe Sasuke's bird to ground him and potentially just warp Sasuke's Susanoo away etc

- Kakashi's Raikiri counters Sasuke's Chidori

- Kakashi's usage of clones will allow him to wear Sasuke down by keeping Susanoo active and using his taxing abilities

- Kakashi's still stronger and has the edge in striking power

- Everything Sasuke brings to the table, Kakashi has an answer for:

Susanoo - water jutsu, lightning transmission, Hidden Mole jutsu to get inside it or just use Kamui

Fire style - Water jutsu, Mud wall

Amaterasu - Hiding in the Mist, usage of clones to gauge his ability, staying out of Sasuke's line of sight

Bird summoning - Kamui snipe

Genjutsu - avoiding eye contact, using his own genjutsu

Susanoo arrows - Kamui

Kirin - Raikiri (he's done it before)

It might be the hardest fight of his life, but Kakashi is smart enough and versatile to make all the right moves in order to win.

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#32 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio

I kinda lost interest in this. We can just open up the votes if you want. We were pretty much done anyway.

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#34 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

I kinda lost interest in this. We can just open up the votes if you want. We were pretty much done anyway.

Sorry I took so long :(

I'm open to votes too

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#35 Posted by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Edited by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by andr413 (3309 posts) - - Show Bio

Kakashi wins. Sasuke Five Kage summit arc still lack of stamina. He often use his ultimate jutsu at the beginning which is cost a lot amount of chakra. Kakashi is famous of using shadow clones at the first encounter.

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#39 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@andr413 said:

Kakashi wins. Sasuke Five Kage summit arc still lack of stamina. He often use his ultimate jutsu at the beginning which is cost a lot amount of chakra. Kakashi is famous of using shadow clones at the first encounter.

While I appreciate the input, this a CAV which is moreso based on who debated better.

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#40 Edited by MudaMudaMuda (5354 posts) - - Show Bio

This was awesome ! :)

I'm seriously on the fence on who to vote for since both sides did an impressive job debating for their characters...

Ultimately, I think I'll have to give the win to @comicstooge who IMO displayed better knowledge of his character and overall analyzed the opponent better. Although, honestly, it was really close and @highaccuser could have won as well had he pointed out the out of context scans @comicstooge used :p

One again, this was a great CaV, guys ! I hope you will do more of them and that I'll have the chance to vote again. :D

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#41 Posted by johnfrank120 (6702 posts) - - Show Bio

An awesome CAV!

I would place my vote on @highaccuser by the narrowest of margins as I feel both had excellent counters, but @highaccuser's overall argument edged out @comicstooge's, but great job both of you.

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#42 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

1-1 so far