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#1 Posted by Aurelion- (935 posts) - - Show Bio

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Rules

  • In character
  • Basic knowledge, random encounter.
  • The combatants start fifteen feet apart.
  • Kirei is in prime condition, and has his command seals.
  • Sabretooth has adamantium.

Setting

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#2 Posted by Aurelion- (935 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

@aurelion-: Pr0?

Btw, my posts won't exactly be speedy, I prefer to take a week or two and make a larger post (not too long but long). Is that alright?

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#4 Posted by Aurelion- (935 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by Vertigo- (17846 posts) - - Show Bio

Christ, whomever is repping Kirei has an uphill battle

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#7 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: Well he turned down Jango Fett, Zuko, Azula, and Ghazan cause they were too slow/weak. I'm sure he's got somthing up his sleeve. Do you want to T4V?

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#8 Posted by Vertigo- (17846 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by deactivated-5995d2717017c (981 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#11 Posted by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please.

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#12 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by Aurelion- (935 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

In this corner, it is the terror that is the Executor of the Church

Kirei Kotomine

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Bio

Kirei was born.. different. He had a warped mind, He had no motives, no feelings, nothing. He is neither sane nor insane, he simply is. He tried to correct this by joining the Holy Church thinking God would give him salvation.. but without feelings he made a perfect executor, actually becoming the best.

If you are interested in learning more about him, You can read more about him here.

Stats

Strength

While I admit that Kirei is outclassed in this regard, I believe has what it takes to still compete. Below, Kirei breaks a 30m tree with three strikes from the back of his hand, while Irisviel was using magic to bind his hands so tight, that they were nearly breaking. This doubles as a durability feat (because imagine what a garrote would do to human skin) as the author compared his body to steel:

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As he lost his balance, the silver threads wrapped around the tree tightly and pulled Kirei towards it. Finally, it bound him firmly towards the tree trunk

The grown tree was more than 30 cm thick. Even if Kirei wanted to use his outrageous strength, it was impossible for him to break or uproot the tree. At last, he was completely immobile.

And even then, Irisviel was the one who steadily lost her advantage underneath Kirei’s strength. In theory, Kirei’s hands should have been overpowered by the pressure generated by the silver thread. Yet, his muscles were trained to the point where they appeared steel-like, and they were powerful beyond all belief. Her silvery thread almost broke, as they struggled underneath the saturated state of near-collapse. In order to keep it tight and to prevent the metal from breaking, she must constantly use her mana to maintain it.

It could be said that the two women still mistakenly underestimated the terror that is the Executor of the Church.

With no knowledge of Chinese kungfu, Irisviel thought that it was only necessary to bind Kirei’s hands to render him helpless. It was not her fault that she only thought like that. However, for someone who managed to reach the level of training such as Kirei, the entire body is a weapon. For example, if he only planted both feet on the ground…

“BOOM,” the deafening sound rendered Irisviel speechless.

The tree trunk shook erratically. As if struck by a full-powered fist. That means the sound she was hearing – only someone using his full strength to strike at the center of the tree could make that sort of sound.

The clear strike sounded again. This time, she started to doubt her ears. She heard a chilling sound of breakage.

She could not see the situation, but Irisviel understood through the touch of her silver thread. The tree trunk that bound Kirei had large cracks in it. The cracks were next to the part where the silver thread wrapped around – the spot directly below Kirei’s hands.

Kirei, with the back of his hands pressing against the bark, was striking at the tree trunk with all of his strength.

Irisviel could not have known – but the strength from a martial arts master is not merely produced from the wrist. From the strength of the feet on the ground, the turning of the back, and the twisting of shoulders, it was possible to instantaneously release a burst of power in the fists. To an expert in this phenomenon, the strength of the arm was insignificant in comparison to the power of the whole body. If it was necessary, one can press the fist next to the target and strike simply by virtue of the “force” coming from outside of the arm – this is known as the hidden technique of “explosive force.”

The sound of the third strike shook the forest. In comparison to the time before, this was much stronger. The tree trunk groaned one last time as the broken fibers broke with loud cracks. As the supporting point of the silvery thread, the trunk collapsed. Grabbing the thread with both of his hands, Kirei nonchalantly escaped the silvery ring at the point of collapse and pulled the thread apart link by link.

Speed

This will be Kirei's main advantage IMO. Take this for example:

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Honestly, that's a feat that people like Wolverine, Spider-Man and etc couldn't replicate, like don't get me wrong they can deflect bullets and what not, but they couldn't stand still and cut down every single bullet fired from a submachine gun with a 50 round magazine. The only two people I can think of with a feat like it would be Elektra and Gorgon, but Elektra is able to do so off body movement.

For combat speed,

Alright, I have to do a bit of power scaling for this feat, but let's go:

First off, we have to start with Kayneth's Volumen Hydragyrum.. It is capable of reacting to bullets (and claymore explosions) after they are fired/explode.

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The moment Kayneth arrived at the center of the hall, the four flower vases placed at the four corners of the hall suddenly exploded with an enormous roar. However, it wasn’t porcelain fragments that flew out from the explosion but countless metal beads. Those metal beads sprang toward Kayneth like bullets.

This machinery was constructed free from magecraft. Kayneth didn’t sense any scent of magecraft activation. Therefore, it must be machinery Kiritsugu set up in the vases. It is an anti-personnel mine called a Claymore, a cruel pre-set bomb. When each bomb explodes they will release, simultaneously, 700 or so steel balls with a diameter of only about one or two millimeters. These steel balls would radiate outwards in all directions in a fan formation, a terrifying weapon that people say is made to completely destroy infantry units with one strike. When it explodes, one won’t even have time to escape; the only thing the target at the center of the bombs can do is prepare to be beaten into a sieve.

– Of course, provided that the target isn’t a magus.

In the split of a second before 2800 steel balls reached Kayneth, the spot he was standing on became enveloped by a silver semi-circle. The mass of mercury lying recumbent beside his feet suddenly changed form.

Although the tight, thin mercury membrane wrapped around Kayneth was barely one millimeter thick, its surface tension reached the strength of steel when supported with prana supply. Out of the rain of beads that the Claymore mines dispersed not one of them hit Kayneth. All they did was getting reflected back to the hall and hammered the setups in the room into smithereens.

This is Volumen Hydragyrum's "automated defense" mode. This pre-set magecraft can automatically respond when Kayneth is threatened, forming a powerful protective membrane in a split second. This kind of reaction speed can even defend from bullets. It was also this defense system Volumen Hydragyrum created that protected Kayneth and Sola when the Hyatt hotel collapsed. The malleable mercury is a perfect weapon that gathered attack and defense all onto itself, being Kayneth’s sword and also Kayneth’s shield.

----

Using spells to manipulate mercury for automatic protection – although he’s heard about this before, he never thought that the real thing would have such powerful abilities. Even the shockwave of the Claymore mines wouldn’t beat its defense in speed. If that’s the case, then he can’t expect to use firearms to obtain victory.

----

In the blink of an eye, a circle was cut out on the floor at the center of the room and fell to the ground below. Then a silver tentacle leapt up from that circular hole.

In front of Kiritsugu, Volumen Hydragyrum’s new shape was like a metallic jellyfish. Endless tentacles grabbed the edge of the opening on the floor and their base, in the middle of the tentacles opening out like an umbrella, was expanded into a flat, bowl-like platform. And the one standing on the platform and smiling was none other than Lord El-Melloi.

Yet.. this is what happens when Kiritsugu is attacked by the machine:

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However, once Kirei fights a 2x Kiritsugu.. He quite literally blitzes him.

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Durability

It's not like I could really show anything that would exactly let him tank adamantium laced claws anyway. That leaves blunt: So while Kirei won't exactly no-sell any of Sabertooth's punches, he has the durability to tank a few if it comes down to it and the pain tolerance to further it.

Similar to the strength section where it compared his skin to steel, a similar instance happens below where Kirei is open-fired upon by Maiya. Kirei has bullet-proof armor, so he decided to run through it, the author compared every bullet hitting him to a metal bat swinging at him, and despite that, Kirei didn't break his full sprint.

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Like a spring, Kirei mechanically leapt as he suddenly charged toward Maiya. Fearlessly, Maiya pressed the trigger.

But Kirei only protected his head; he didn’t bother dodging. Even the sleeves of the monk’s robes were made from thick Kevlar filaments. It was covered seamlessly with the Church’s special protection spells. 9mm caliber pistol rounds, even at extremely close distances, cannot pierce it. Even then, the strikes from 250 foot-pound bullets, firing at 10 rounds per second, struck Kirei’s body like metal bats. However, he was able to completely protect his organs and bones because of his well-trained musculature that acted like armor.

Black Keys

(The Wolverine claw things)

Kirei is described as a mini-bullseye below. He has a literal 100% hit-rate on his Black Keys. No, It's not one of those 'until he met the main character!' type thing. He never missed a single throw he made with them unless he intended to. (As in using one to distract and another to hit)

He used Black Keys during ranged battle. A single throw, complete with preparatory movements, could be completed in 0.3 seconds. He could perform four separate throws in 0.7 seconds. His accuracy rate was 100% even when striking down unconfirmed targets, such as the illusions in the Einzbern forest. The blades themselves, half-spiritual entities, could penetrate iron.

As you can see above, they can dig into Iron and has even been stated to dig into concrete. While they won't go through your bones, they'll do their job at slowing you down. They aren't just any knives either, they're weapons fit for executors. In that they have slight special abilities, the only major one being:

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They can seal movement by pinning a targets shadow. The first would be Kirei using it, and the second would be Ciel armed with the same Black Keys using it.

Skill

Kirei lives in a world of hypersonic gods, hypersonic vampires, people that can see lines of reality and cut them to destroy it on a whim, mages that can summon armies or bring down buildings in a single blow, and Kirei was one of the elite few chosen to be executor at only ten years old:

Indeed, Kirei did join the same department as his father in the end, but before that, he was transferred three times and was once chosen as an 'Executor.' He was only ten-something years old then too. This job cannot be done without a certain amount of willpower." That was the Holy Church's bloodiest department, called the Shura's Den for its responsibility of punishing heresies. To be able to gain the title of "Executor" would mean that he is a first-rate murderer, signifying that he has passed brutal and pious training to become mankind's weapon.

As well, Kirei is a master of 'Super' Baji-Quan. It's based on a real life martial art, but Kirei takes it to superhuman aspects and dubbed it 'Super'.

A good example below, is when He is fighting Kiritsugu, considered the World's Deadliest assassin, and specializes in killing mages. Kirei had been injured by a surprise attack and had absolutely no vision in his eye on the side he was forced to block on as his other arm was broken. Not only is Kirei able to block every single attack coming at him, but is also able to gain the advantage forcing Kiritsugu to go up to 4x his maximum speed. We never got an actual statement on how fast he was at 4x, but the version that Kirei pushed back (3x) was moving so fast he was unperceivable to normal human perception.

“Time Alter: Triple Accel!”

Kiritsugu leapt toward Kirei as he uttered the forbidden spell. His unpredictable acceleration caught Kirei off-guard. One blow from the hardened walnut wood snapped Kirei’s right radius and ulna. The Executor's right arm was destroyed.

As he struck with his right hand, Kiritsugu drew the dagger by his waist using his left. With one eye and one arm ruined, it didn’t matter how great Kirei’s martial art skills were; victory would belong to Kiritsugu as long as he continued to move at three times his top speed. Using Innate Time Control in this way would ordinarily be suicide, but thanks to the protection of Saber’s sheath, he could now use it to its full potential as a strategic weapon.

Kirei dodged the upward stab as the dagger was removed from its sheath, and used his left arm to block the downward slash and backhand horizontal swing Kiritsugu followed up with. However, with these three attacks, Kiritsugu shifted around to Kirei's left hand side, into Kirei’s blind spot. As long as he stayed on the left side of the enemy, Kiritsugu would have all the chances in the world to strike Kirei down from his blind spot.

Kiritsugu’s sharp blade sliced closer, but Kirei didn’t turn; instead using the left side of the body to block every swing. Turning would have been pointless; his broken right arm could not possibly block Kiritsugu’s dagger. Thus, though it disadvantageous for Kirei to use his left side to defend himself, he had no other choices.

The dagger attacked continuously, flickering through the air with a chilling light. No regular human would have been able to even see Kiritsugu’s movements; only the lighting-like residual images the dagger left in its wake. Kirei, though, blocked every attack using just his left arm. Kirei, who easily defended himself even when faced with attacks made at three times the speed of normal humans, terrified Kiritsugu. There were a few attacks that even Kirei would never have seen coming with his eyes, but the Executor’s left arm defended him, as if it could see every swing.

“Could this be the idea of ‘hearing’ a move?!”

Kiritsugu only had a vague impression of this phrase. Some schools of martial arts thought that when a martial artist had reached a certain state in his skills, he wouldn’t need eyesight to detect the enemy’s movement. He could predict the opponent’s next move purely on the brief moment when his arm blocked that of his opponent.

The attacks from his blind spot had also been rendered pointless, then. Since the attacks were coming from a static location, Kirei could block them even if he couldn’t see them. This man’s skills made him someone who wouldn’t be at a disadvantage even when put under the duress of speed.

Kirei suddenly changed his feet stance, and rolled forward, towards his opponent. Kiritsugu thought that the enemy’s ability to ‘hear’ a move had been pushed to its limit, but Kirei moved a foot, hooking one of Kiritsugu’s legs from the inside, in a move known as the locking stance. Kiritsugu stumbled backwards. The moment he finally managed to balance himself, he realized that a heavy blow from Kirei was fast approaching. He was still recovering his balance, however, so he could not move.

If so – Kiritsugu grated out a spell, from a throat that was frothing with blood.

“Time Alter: Square Accel!”

The explosive pain boiled into every part of his senses. Kiritsugu leapt up and backwards, turning in mid-air to escape from Kirei’s range, simultaneously hurling the dagger in his left hand, with all the strength in his body. Faced with yet another repeated acceleration, Kirei couldn’t dodge. The dagger ripped through the air and struck into Kirei's thigh, effortlessly slicing through Kevlar and stabbing deep into flesh.

Kiritsugu maintained his four-time acceleration, continuing to leap backwards, as if strapped to a jet engine. Kirei took a moment to draw a Black Key and throw it, but Kiritsugu dodged it with ease, simultaneously reloading the Contender.

Now admittedly, it was through sound but the the speed, skill and precision required to not only continuously block massively FTE attacks at point blank range but push back your extremely well trained attacker through pure sound is honestly pretty insane.

Other Notes

It will certainly be quite a bloodshow, but I believe Kirei has what it takes to be the victor. First off, since we have Basic Knowledge of one another, something pretty basic about Sabretooth would be the healing factor. Knowing this, Kirei will focus his efforts on Sabretooth's head, as this was his train of thought the moment he realized Kiritsugu could regenerate after Kirei had exploded his heart.

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So he will not be caught off guard by it.

One boon that Sabertooth has is the adamantium skeleton, but given Kirei's fighting style is based off doing as much internal damage as possible.. It'd be a small comfort defending against his strikes.

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That should do for an opener, I'll get into the battle after you post.

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#14 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

@aurelion-: How many posts each?

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#15 Edited by Aurelion- (935 posts) - - Show Bio

@aurelion-: How many posts each?

Let's try and go for just 3. I think more then that will just turn people off.

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#16 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

@aurelion-: Okay then, I'll get an opener up by Sunday night.

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#17 Posted by Aurelion- (935 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Aurelion- (935 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

@aurelion-: Not yet done but here's most of it. I'll add conclusions and such later on.

On the other corner, the monster of a man, the bane of Wolverine's existence...

Sabretooth!

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Bio:

Must people should know who he is by now. So here's pics from the Marvel handbook for those who don't.

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Stats Compared (Speed, Strength & Durability):

Strength:

While I admit that Kirei is outclassed in this regard, I believe has what it takes to still compete. Below, Kirei breaks a 30m tree with three strikes from the back of his hand, while Irisviel was using magic to bind his hands so tight, that they were nearly breaking.

Honestly this isn't impressive, (I spent an hour on this thinking of ways to test this number and the science got so complicated so if it ends of being wrong, sorry) the shear force it takes to break wood divided by 3 (three hits) is only 695 PSI, not even enough to break the femur bone (not coated in adamantium). Not to mention the fact that he had to set up the punch.

In Comparison take a look at these:

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  • He shatters Wolerine's claws (bone) with one hand.
  • Easily breaks a man's skull with one hand.
  • Pulls a brick wall apart (he was held there using adamantium chains).

Okay, so Sabretooth's got the scans to show that he can match/surpass Kirei with 1 hand, but you think that that's because the rope was limiting Kierei's striking distance. You'd think that but Creed had been in a similar situation, see below.

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One flex shatters steel, also he does this with his ankle muscles as well. That's a force of 35,000 PSI . Yes, a whole 50x more impressive! And I'm not done yet, there's two more feats....

Stronger than an elephant.

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The striking force of a mad elephant can be at 11,541.42 newtons. Which means that Sabertooth is packing at least three times the force needed to break the femur. The earlier scan above shows that he packs more than triple that (20 times the force needed to break the femur).

To reinforce my point further, let me introduce you to Archangel, a mutant whose wings were made to be stronger than steel. He can tank missiles,one shot robots andbust airplanes. But take a look what happens when he fights Sabretooth.

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Basically gets one shoted. Sabretooth cuts clean though Warren's wings in one swipe.

I believe that my point has been made clear. By feats and science, Sabretooth completely outclasses Kirei in terms of strength, to the point where he can't even compare to Sabretooth. Now onto durability.

Durability

All do durability first as it is a major advantage to Creed.

This doubles as a durability feat (because imagine what a garrote would do to human skin) as the author compared his body to steel:...

Aurelion on the tree feat.

First, that is a weak durability feat, neither Kirei or Creed have real world human skin (which would barley be cut anyway), second, as mentioned steel like skin is easily shattered by Creed.

It's not like I could really show anything that would exactly let him tank adamantium laced claws anyway. That leaves blunt: So while Kirei won't exactly no-sell any of Sabertooth's punches, he has the durability to tank a few if it comes down to it and the pain tolerance to further it.

Except Creed rarely uses punches when he has his claws available, even when they aren't he'd much rather swing or throw heavy objects at his target.

Similar to the strength section where it compared his skin to steel, a similar instance happens below where Kirei is open-fired upon by Maiya. Kirei has bullet-proof armor, so he decided to run through it, the author compared every bullet hitting him to a metal bat swinging at him, and despite that, Kirei didn't break his full sprint.

First it wasn't just bullet proof armor, it was magic based and he was covered head to toe with it. Second, this isn't a durability feat, take a close look at the auther's words, he said that Kirei had A. Kevlar filled cloths with magic and B. Protected all his vital organs. The only thing impressive was the 10 metal bats a second, and using a stopwatch I found that the gif lasted maybe 1.27-1.37 seconds long, in other words he only felt the metal bats for one second (and it was a much smaller pain compared to real metal bats which have a wider area of effect).

Now let's move onto Creed's feats.

So now that we know Kirei's bullet tanking wasn't that impressive let's refresh our memory by looking at real bullet tanking.

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He no sells bullets twice (he does it a couple other times but that's for later). The bullets didn't even draw blood, in fact they completely fold upon impact.

And even if the bullets do get through he can simply heal from the damage.

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Just for fun if we pretend Kirei is 20x stronger than he actually is, let's see what would happen if something that strong were to strike Creed.

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Nothing damaging would happen. That wraps up durability. I hope I was able to sure Creed is vastly superior.

Speed

This will be Kirei's main advantage IMO.

I agree, Kirei has the advantage here, but only by a hair, hardly enough to be a saving grace.

Honestly, that's a feat that people like Wolverine, Spider-Man and etc couldn't replicate, like don't get me wrong they can deflect bullets and what not, but they couldn't stand still and cut down every single bullet fired from a submachine gun with a 50 round magazine. The only two people I can think of with a feat like it would be Elektra and Gorgon, but Elektra is able to do so off body movement.

Well it's a good thing Sabretooth is faster than Logan then, but that's a detail for later. For now let's see just how fast Kirei was moving. First thing we need to know is the amount of bullets that was sprayed and how fast they travel. According to this website and a stop watch we can determine that there were about 24-25 bullets fired at the time. all traveling at 1,290 ft/s (mach 1) according to Wikipedia. Which means he had to be going at at least 1,390 ft/s to dodge 1 bullet, for 24 it's hard to tell. So we'll just say he can move his arms at 2,780 ft/s (mach 2.4). Really impressive but Logan can tag a speedster right after deflecting throwing knives, tag another speedster without looking and while mind controlled and morals off, killed Northstar (a speedster). And like I said before Creed edges out Logan in speed so he'll have no problem moving fast enough to tag and block Kirei multiple times.

Yet.. this is what happens when Kiritsugu is attacked by the machine:

Very nice. Except Kiritsugu used Time alter in that scene, doubling his speed and making him FTE.

However, once Kirei fights a 2x Kiritsugu.. He quite literally blitzes him.

First of all how do you know Kiritsugu used Double Accel? Usually he turns orange and has after images. Second, he never blitzes Kiritsugu, he lands one punch while Kiritsugu was distracted cause he was loading his gun. Also, from what I recall, it was a pretty even fight and nobody was blitzing.

Now to prove Sabretooth's speed and his superiority to Wolverine by feats and statements.

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  • Stated to be faster than Wolverine.
  • Moves faster than Wolverine (I showed this earlier too) and snaps his claws before he can pull away.
  • Sabretooth dodges and draws blood from Wolverine.
  • In the next page is stated to be faster than him again.
  • Not against Wolverine but Sabretooth tags Black suit Spider-Man.
  • Sabretooth blitzes a room full of guards so quickly the guards couldn't even react.

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#23 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

@aurelion-: Whelp. I lost all my edits and I was just informed that I'll be away from a PC till Sunday. Sorry, but I'll have to do conclusions and such in the next post. You can work on your counter now.

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#26 Posted by Aurelion- (935 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: I didn't see your notification that you had posted. I guess it got lost when I woke up with 30+

My post will probably be a couple days cause I'm focusing on the scenario.

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#27 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

Forgot to add this:

How I did the math:

To get 695 PSI, I first picked strong tree wood that grew up to 30 m (Pecan Hickory), then I found it's shear strength (not sure if that was the formula needed) which was 2,080 (I added 6 so that it would be easier to divide) and finally divided it by 3.

To get 35,000 PSI, I first found the ultimate tensile strength of steel (70,000 PSI) and turned it into ultimate shear strength by multiplying 70,000 by 0.50.

To get 11,541.42 newtons I did F=M*A. Got the weight of the heaviest recorded elephant (Logan says mad elephant indicating strong ones, also any engineer worth his salt would offer some protective leeway just in case), multplied by acceleration. Which I got by finding the average running speed of an elephant (got conflicting information), watching videos of elephants charging and timing it and plugging the numbers into a calculator.

I got most of my calc info from Google (femur, steel, wood strength, elephant spee and wieght, formulas etc.)

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#30 Edited by FirstOlympian (694 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm, I had most of it completed and I got bored and just completed it. The only problem though.. I can't edit the OP to open it for votes once you post.

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Counters:

Honestly this isn't impressive, (I spent an hour on this thinking of ways to test this number and the science got so complicated so if it ends of being wrong, sorry) the shear force it takes to break wood divided by 3 (three hits) is only 695 PSI, not even enough to break the femur bone (not coated in adamantium). Not to mention the fact that he had to set up the punch.

I think that's extremely impressive. I mean go and tape your hand to the wall and see if you can so much as lift your hand off the wall, much less destroy it. Even if you don't think so, I'll get into more feats under 'The Fight' section of my post.

Kiritsugu shuddered, as the tall, frock-clad figure glided forward. Kirei's reached Baji Quan's optimum distance, and his fist drove toward toward the enemy with the power to reach infinity in all eight directions.

Kirei stepped forward. The concrete floor boomed under the impact, and the heavily planted forward fist slammed into Kiritsugu’s chest like a rock. Using the ‘Eight Postures of the Buddha Guards’ style, the sheer force of Kirei’s strike was like a grenade exploding in Kiritsugu's chest. Kiritsugu’s body, which took the full force of the blow, flew through the air like a strand of hay, and slammed into the support pillars that crowded the room. He never had the chance to defend himself. His thoracic cavity crumpled beneath Kirei’s iron fist, and his lung and heart were pounded into a mash of meat.

Kirei completely destroyed multiple of Kiritsugu's organs including his heart concaved his chest, launched him a good 60+ feet 'like a strand of hay' and made a huge crater in a concrete wall. The force itself was compared to the force of a grenade explosion.

First, that is a weak durability feat, neither Kirei or Creed have real world human skin (which would barley be cut anyway), second, as mentioned steel like skin is easily shattered by Creed.

A silver thread garrote being pulled so hard that it nearly broke would cut clean through someone's hand. Instead, it like I said was nearly breaking unable to overpower Kirei. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Kirei can stop his claws but it is impressive.

First it wasn't just bullet proof armor, it was magic based and he was covered head to toe with it. Second, this isn't a durability feat, take a close look at the auther's words, he said that Kirei had A. Kevlar filled cloths with magic and B. Protected all his vital organs. The only thing impressive was the 10 metal bats a second, and using a stopwatch I found that the gif lasted maybe 1.27-1.37 seconds long, in other words he only felt the metal bats for one second (and it was a much smaller pain compared to real metal bats which have a wider area of effect).

That would make the feat more impressive. Not less. If they hit with the exact same amount of force (let's say for example 1 ton), it's a lot more impressive to tank 1 ton of force contained to the surface area of a bullet then a bat.

So now that we know Kirei's bullet tanking wasn't that impressive let's refresh our memory by looking at real bullet tanking.

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He no sells bullets twice (he does it a couple other times but that's for later). The bullets didn't even draw blood, in fact they completely fold upon impact.

The second one does, but I'm not arguing about Kirei being able to tank bullets. Neither opponent uses them and it doesn't matter, what matters is what Kirei's was compared to.

Just for fun if we pretend Kirei is 20x stronger than he actually is, let's see what would happen if something that strong were to strike Creed.

Alright, I've already provided a scan in my last post under the "Other Notes" section that dealt with this.

The person he is fighting is Shirou Emiya. Someone that had reinforced his entire outer body to be made of metal swords, and every single attack was making Shirou white out, flung multiple meters and pulverizing his organs.

Now, I don't know how hard he actually made his metal but Shirou was able to turn something as low durability as a paper poster into hard metal.

Really impressive but Logan can tag a speedster right after deflecting throwing knives,

Logan was unable to keep up at all, and borderline states the only reason he was able to do so was by outlasting him and getting his pattern down.

killed Northstar (a speedster).

He did so through stealth. Something that isn't translatable to Creed.

Very nice. Except Kiritsugu used Time alter in that scene, doubling his speed and making him FTE.

I know, the gif includes him saying it.

First of all how do you know Kiritsugu used Double Accel? Usually he turns orange and has after images.

Well because he had just used it right before that, and the narration in the light novel proves it:

Kiritsugu ignored the pain Innate Time Control inflicted upon him, and maintained the spell, backing out of Kirei’s range. His first step had to be to increase the distance between them. Kiritsugu would be able to deal with Kirei if his only method of attack were the Black Keys, but for the moment, the competition had become an authentic contest of distance. Kiritsugu retreated, and Kirei advanced. Since the ideal distance for them to initiate an attack differed between the two men, now they could now only compete via footspeed.

The mobility that Innate Time Control gave him was Kiritsugu’s most reliable defence. He required a certain distance to fill the Contender. As long as Kiritsugu was close enough to target Kotomine accurately, yet far enough that he was beyond arm's reach, then he could win. Even if the bullet contained no magecraft, the bulletproof clothing the enemy wore could not stop the sheer penetrative power of the .30-06 rounds. Though the continuous activation of Innate Time Control amounted to suicide, there was no other choice.

Well the first step caught Kiritsugu off guard because it was some sort of martial art Kirei was using to slip between his view, the rest would be through speed.

Second, he never blitzes Kiritsugu, he lands one punch while Kiritsugu was distracted cause he was loading his gun.

Covering 20 or so feet by the time someone capable of moving their entire body at blur level (People can move their hands a lot faster then their entire body) could open up a one handed break action rifle and one shotting them is pretty much the definition of a blitz.

Kiritsugu never takes his eyes off of Kirei.

Also, from what I recall, it was a pretty even fight and nobody was blitzing.

Despite Kiritsugu having literally every advantage at his disposal, the fight was pretty one-sidedly in Kirei's favor, and the only reason that Kiritsugu so much as stood a chance was because of Avalon. Kirei didn't know about his Origin Rounds as well, but they didn't come into play until after Avalon did.

The Fight

Now that both sides and the readers will have a decent understanding of each character's capabilities I'd like to go back over the points and discuss why I think Kirei's make him the victor.

Lifting Strength

While I admit that Sabretooth has a pretty big advantage is this regard as Kirei is only about peak human or so in his lifting strength, I don't think either opponent is planning to wrestle and the advantage has little relevance.

Striking Strength

This is the more important of the two but I believe neither really hold the advantage. Does either strike harder then the other? Maybe, but that doesn't matter. What matters is how each character deals with being hit. Sabretooth has an adamantium skeleton and a healing factor while Kirei has a speed and skill advantage.

Some of the feats you showed (Chains, Archangel, Man's skull) can't just be fully accounted to his strength. The most impressive being the chain restraint feats, but you can pretty clearly see Sabretooth flexing his claws.

Durability

I think this is the biggest difference between the two and the advantage obviously goes to Sabretooth. Kirei is formidable in the regard but his main way of tanking damage (magic enhanced robes) can't stand up to adamantium and he is forced to rely on pain tolerance. While normally you'd think 'that means little if there's a hole in your chest' but you'd be surprised. While normally this would be under striking strength I believe these feats fit better here as I want to show that Kirei can get past Sabretooth's. First up with be the feat where Kirei destroys most of Kiritsugu's internal organs, sends him flying a good 20 meters like a stand of hay and cratering a concrete wall and has the force compared to a grenade exploding inside Kiritsugu's chest.

No Caption Provided

Kiritsugu shuddered, as the tall, frock-clad figure glided forward. Kirei's reached Baji Quan's optimum distance, and his fist drove toward toward the enemy with the power to reach infinity in all eight directions.

Kirei stepped forward. The concrete floor boomed under the impact, and the heavily planted forward fist slammed into Kiritsugu’s chest like a rock. Using the ‘Eight Postures of the Buddha Guards’ style, the sheer force of Kirei’s strike was like a grenade exploding in Kiritsugu's chest. Kiritsugu’s body, which took the full force of the blow, flew through the air like a strand of hay, and slammed into the support pillars that crowded the room. He never had the chance to defend himself. His thoracic cavity crumpled beneath Kirei’s iron fist, and his lung and heart were pounded into a mash of meat.

I go over the context of these scans below but Kirei with less then a minute left to live and without a functioning heart is capable of pulverizing the organs of Shirou Emiya whose entire outer body was made out of swords and metal. Not only that, he was making Shirou white out with every attack and sending him flying meters with every strike.

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With a single slam, he turns Zouken Mato's body into paste leaving only half his head.

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Speed

We start getting into Kirei's advantages now and I believe this is what decides the match. The reason I think so is because a much older past his prime Kirei on the brink of death could keep up with Sabretooth. Let me show you what I mean:

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Kirei is moving FTE to Shirou Emiya. Now the reason the feat is impressive is because Kirei was in the condition I previously mentioned. His heart was crushed and his body was 'squeezed like a rag'

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Now the reason the feat is even more impressive is the person he was FTE to. The person in question was Shirou Emiya, who is superhuman in his own right. Before I get into these feats, I want to disclose that Shirou was injured as well and not operating at near his top speed but given Kirei's condition I believe it'd cancel out.

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Shirou is capable of dodging Lancer's blows, and while I don't think Shirou is nearly as fast as him, Lancer is capable of trading over a hundred strikes in an instant with Archer when going all out:

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Shirou is even able enhance his perception that time looks like it's standing still.

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Continuing on the speed point, Kirei is stated to have processing speed 'far surpassing' that of a bullet:

As a humanoid Shura, an Executor of the Holy Church, the agility of Kirei’s mind far surpassed that of a bullet.

It's even more impressive when the bullet they were referring to was from a rifle.

Now, if that wasn't enough to prove that Kirei has the speed advantage.. he's got something special for it as well. Command Seals, Normally these would be used to control servants but Kirei decided to use them to boost his physchial traits instead.

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He drove his accelerated limbs and leapt up from the ground, jumping backwards to further the distance. The machine gun ran out of bullets. Kirei turned to face him. Kiritsugu dropped the machine gun and drew a .30-06 bullet with his now empty left hand. Kirei loomed near. With a near-flight speed, Kiritsugu slid the bullet into the chamber. He closed the barrel half-way, took aim –

A space of three steps separated him from Kirei’s iron fists.

The Contender once again let out a furious roar. Kirei had no time to dodge, nor did he have time to draw his Black Keys.

But Kirei had never intended to dodge.

Kirei once again activated a Command Seal the moment he stepped toward Kiritsugu. He reinforced his physical abilities. Kirei accelerated his reaction time, multiplying the maximum power output of his right flexor, radius muscle, and pronator teres. There was no time to strengthen the sleeve of the bulletproof frock. The rest depended entirely upon his skill.

Kirei threw a right punch a moment before the Contender fired. His arm, having transformed into a lethal magecraft Mystic Code, carved a spiral through the air, and a tornado roared into being.

This movement became a spiral of force. Originally a defensive skill to nullify an opponent’s strike, the martial arts move was performed at a horrific speed after the prana of two Command Seals was infused into it.

The bullet left the barrel at a speed of 2500 inches per second, and was wrapped up in the spiral that moved at a divine speed. Even so, the .30-06 bullet still kept a straight path. It tore apart the Kevlar sleeve, clashing viciously with Kirei’s hardened arm, emitting alien sounds like the clash of two mill stones.

The scattering sparks seemed to distort the laws of physics; a supernatural phenomena where approximately 3000 pound-per-inch kinetic energy was forced to bend to the power of magecraft. A chill ran down Kiritsugu's spine as he watched the second Contender bullet's trajectory change. The bullet flew off at an angle, into the distance.

Monster. There were no other words to describe the man before him. At this moment, Kotomine Kirei’s current combat ability is equal to that of a Dead Apostle. Just what kind of willpower was required for a living man to drill his own body into such a terrifying lethal weapon?

There's quite a few speed feats in there, but the most notable isn't karate chopping a bullet out the air but the last couple of sentences. Kirei is able to perceive being shot by a rifle bullet from three steps away, and turn his his body overpowering the bullet and causing the trajectory of the bullet to change so it causes the least amount of damage to his body as possible.

I mean just recently in Civil War II: X-Men #3, Old Man Logan (quite a bit slower then 616) was able to defeat Sabretooth. The best argument to be made here was that they were fighting evenly, but given that we see OML with a single scratch while Sabretooth is injured in almost every scan could make one think otherwise.

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Skill

Another advantage Kirei holds. He has been trained since ten to be an executor, completely mastered Baji-Quan and even improved it to fit his fighting style and is described as a mini-bullseye when it comes to his Black Keys. I think his fight that I showed earlier with Kiritsugu is proof that Kirei is more skilled then Creed. He is not only capable of defending against an opponent with one arm while he can't see (as he had no vision in his eye) that was also moving faster then human perception off pure sound, but was able to gain the advantage against him. His opponent was formidable as well, being the top assassin in the world, specializing in killing people like Kirei and had been trained for many years in multiple form of combat, including special forces knife fighting.

Black Keys

One thing I'd like to mention as another one of Kirei's advantages is his ranged capability. They mainly won't do anything but piss Sabretooth off, but as I showed in my first post they are capable of sealing the movement of people stronger then Sabretooth by pinning their shadow. Kirei won't immediately go for this tactic, but he has when pushed too it.

Recap:

  • Sabretooth is stronger and more durable by a decent margin.
  • Kirei is faster and more skilled by a decent margin, with the ability to amp his speed.
  • Kirei possesses a ranged option that could end the match by pinning Sabretooth's shadow if pressed.
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#31 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

@firstolympian: Awesome post, man. I feel as though I down played him a bit. Look for a post in about a week or so, maybe we can just post the thread in the up for votes thread and maybe even the Daily Debater to garner some votes.

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#32 Edited by foxerdes (10339 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

first,lol

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#33 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

@firstolympian:

Final Round!

No Caption Provided

Counters:

I think that's extremely impressive. I mean go and tape your hand to the wall and see if you can so much as lift your hand off the wall, much less destroy it. Even if you don't think so, I'll get into more feats under 'The Fight' section of my post.

In a fight of this scale? I don't think it is, especially when you look at the math.

Kirei completely destroyed multiple of Kiritsugu's organs including his heart concaved his chest, launched him a good 60+ feet 'like a strand of hay' and made a huge crater in a concrete wall. The force itself was compared to the force of a grenade explosion.

But Kiritsugu is a normal peak human feat wise in terms of durability and as I've showed Creed is much more durable than a peak human. Also the GIF you show later (under durability) makes 60 feet seem a bit much of an estimate.

A silver thread garrote being pulled so hard that it nearly broke would cut clean through someone's hand. Instead, it like I said was nearly breaking unable to overpower Kirei. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Kirei can stop his claws but it is impressive.

It barely cut the tree, I doubt it would slice clean through a hand. If you admit he can't tank Sabrettoth's claws, then there isn't really much to debate.

That would make the feat more impressive. Not less. If they hit with the exact same amount of force (let's say for example 1 ton), it's a lot more impressive to tank 1 ton of force contained to the surface area of a bullet then a bat.

No it wouldn't, it didn't say it felt like a concentrated hit from a metal bat, most likely it meant that it felt like a metal bat hit with a smaller surface area. In other words it felt as painful but was had a smaller area of affect and was less damaging.

The second one does, but I'm not arguing about Kirei being able to tank bullets. Neither opponent uses them and it doesn't matter, what matters is what Kirei's was compared to.

I doubt that it did, but even if it did, he was completely unfazed and it barely drew any blood. Also, as I said steel is like paper to Creed.

Alright, I've already provided a scan in my last post under the "Other Notes" section that dealt with this.

The person he is fighting is Shirou Emiya. Someone that had reinforced his entire outer body to be made of metal swords, and every single attack was making Shirou white out, flung multiple meters and pulverizing his organs.

Now, I don't know how hard he actually made his metal but Shirou was able to turn something as low durability as a paper poster into hard metal.

I don't see how that scan deals with anything. Luke Cage can punch through a wall and even draw blood from a weakened Juggernaut with a hit. Creed withstood 2 hits and did not draw blood (Cage was not holding back, Creed and Luke were battling before the scan). Kirie hurt a guy who's skin durability is that of metal. Creed can tank those hits with ease.

Logan was unable to keep up at all, and borderline states the only reason he was able to do so was by outlasting him and getting his pattern down.

Logan still reacted to the knives and tagged a speedster and it doesn't matter if he waited since it was a one page fight (with no time skips) so the idea that a speedster would lose energy that fast is false.

He did so through stealth. Something that isn't translatable to Creed.

He still was able to kill Northstar before he could react. Also, you missed the third scan which still stands.

Well because he had just used it right before that, and the narration in the light novel proves it:

Well he (IIRC) can't use Time Alter immediately after he just used it. Also, the anime isn't exactly the same as the novel, so scenes don't translate completely.

Covering 20 or so feet by the time someone capable of moving their entire body at blur level (People can move their hands a lot faster then their entire body) could open up a one handed break action rifle and one shotting them is pretty much the definition of a blitz.

Well he only does this when Kiritsugu is loading his gun and it isn't a "true blitz" by that I mean, he didn't hit Kiritsugu multple times before he could react.

Despite Kiritsugu having literally every advantage at his disposal,

In terms of stats? No he didn't. He also was fighting an amped opponent so he had an even greater stat gap.

Counters 2 (The Fight):

Lifting and Striking Strength:

First of all, in terms of lifting as you said Creed holds the advantage. However, I would not dismiss its usefulness as the location picked has a lot of throwable thing (such as cars or man holes) and it would help Sabretooth's ranged capabilities (I'll get more on this later). In terms of striking, you say they are nearly equal because claw strength does not equal striking, which I think is fair, however, if you compare Kirei's striking, to Creed's claws, you will see that Creed has the advantage (more on this later).

Durability:

As for durability, there really isn't much to say except that most of these aren't above peak human, I mean punching a guy's organs and beating a kid when you're an old man are fine feats but nothing that would put him near adamanyium claw tanking level. Also, this may not be a case of actual durability at work but it may rather be his skill, bare with me here while I try and explain. In the speed section you can see Kirei's hand get demolished by a bullet so he isn't that durable, and most of his striking feats come with a maryial art esque desciption (like the Eight Postures of the Buddha Guards) meaning it isn't his hand taking the damage instead he uses a special technique to deflect the damage. And you might think that is dumb, but take Karate Kid for example, a normal man who can smash meteors using pure skill. So it isn't unheard of for the martial artist type characters, but what does it mean? It means that while Kirei may be able to attack with a lot of force, but he may not be able to defend against it using pure durability.

Speed:

Now we got to the real question. Is Kirei's advantage really that big? Well7 for starters the comand seal and Kirei's mind feats are nice but are just bullet timing (also note that the mind one was a statement not a feat) and don't make him faster than our estimate of mach 2.4, the one versus Emiya however is another can of worms. For starters, saying Shirou can slow down his perception of time is useless without having proved that he did during the fight, also being kicking FTE is normal even in real world fights. I did the math and the feat didn't prove to be above mach 2.4 (I sliced it different ways, getting mach 1, mach 0.006, mach 2.1 etc. Usually using sifferent distances but the same 12 micro seconds as time). Now, can we say that Sabretooth is around that speed? As shown previously in my last post, he sure can. In fact here are extra scans proving it.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • Dodges and beats Sasquatch.
  • Scan of Sasquatch tagging Northstar (a speedster) so fast he didn't even have time to think.

Skill and Black Keyes:

For skill, Creed has been fighting Logan on equal footing for years and yet Logan is hundreds of times more skilled (might be more skilled than Kirei) and yet Sabretooth never seemed to lose purely because of this (when written properly of course). Also, he has a killer instinct making his reflexes on par with martial artist. About the knives, once he gets knives thrown at him he can throw back cars and stop signs, things present in the arena. Lastly, I assume that you can easily undo the knife pinning by simply removing them.

The Fight\Summary:

Basically Creed is significantly stonger, much more durable, nearly as fast and has a healing factor (that I have yet to touch on). I see the fight going like this, Kirei first goes onto blitz Creed, to no lasting affect as Creed can either tank or heal from any attack (even sliced hearts), then Kirei tries to use his powerful strikes, which shatter his hand and knock Creed back, but then Creed heals (scan 1 and scan 2), finally Kirei pins him down and stabs Creed multiple times, but Creed shakes it off , finally Creed tags Kirei once or twice ending the fight easily.

Claws V.S. Striking:

A small point I wanted to make comparing the two. First, I'd like to note that every powerful strike Kirei uses reauires a set up step while Creed can just slash away, also he can attack from all directions and is much more versitile.

This was fun, I had hoped that it would last longer but for my first one, I think I did okay.

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#34 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by foxerdes (10339 posts) - - Show Bio

You both did excellent job and were able to support your statements aswell as dismiss few of opponent arguments. In the end though I'd probably vote for Major simply because he did seem to do better job highliting Creed advantages.

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#36 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#37 Posted by God_Spawn (43269 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll give this a read over.

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#40 Posted by Warlockmage (9390 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: i have major qualms about your representation of Sabretooth specifically your cherry picking of Sabretooth vs Wolverine fights and then using them to justify that Sabretooth > Wolverine

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#41 Edited by Vertigo- (17846 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, despite this being a mismatch (to me) in the beginning, I think that Pr0 was the better debater here. I'll say stalemate though

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#42 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by Vertigo- (17846 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: I feel like being neutral in my vote here. And while you did actually prove that Creed could put down Kirei (not that it wasn't hard to prove), in the overall grand scheme of things, Pr0 actually out-debated you.

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#45 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: Okay then. Btw, was there anything in particular that I may have lacked or he may have exceeded in?

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#46 Posted by Vertigo- (17846 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: You got punished a bit on context (wolverine tagging that speedster), and it seemed like you were on the defensive a bit in your last post, while Aurellion was all forward (that's more of a presentation thing to the voters) and his argument was bulletproof, even when you tried to counter. You could chalk that up to his experience though (he's a really good debater). You did an alright job considering this was your first CaV.

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#47 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: I knew the context (it was written on the scan), I however thought that reacting to a speedster was impressive enough (like DS tagging Flash, though that was PIS). How do I make my arguements more "bulletproof"?

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#48 Posted by Vertigo- (17846 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: The common feat of Deathstroke tagging Flash (assuming I'm remembering the right one) does have PIS, but it has buckets of context to it, namely Wally himself limiting himself due to a mental block.

In regards to making arguments more "bulletproof", support the argument as much as possible, being extra careful when referencing your character in relation to other characters. As Warlock pointed out (and he knows his Wolverine), some of your Wolverine vs Sabretooth fights are iffy in what you attempted to imply. A good way that Pr0 countered this was posting the point between OML and Sabretooth in which Logan seemed to get a clear edge over Creed, thus casting doubt that Wolverine and Sabretooth are equals, which seemed to be what you were implying

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#49 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18039 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: I know, but he was still FTE and DS tagged him, pretty impressive to me given the situation.

I did want to add more points and scans but I didn't have the time to and R1 and felt that it wouldbe unfair to in R2, but I see your point. As to the Sabretooth and Logan comparison, what I don't get is why that arguement is considered bad when I got the idea from one of Comic Stooge's CaVs, I think I even used more scans than him and more clarification points. But I will look into it.

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#50 Edited by Vertigo- (17846 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: I know, but he was still FTE and DS tagged him, pretty impressive to me given the situation.

It's not something I would use in a debate, but that's just me

I did want to add more points and scans but I didn't have the time to and R1 and felt that it wouldbe unfair to in R2, but I see your point. As to the Sabretooth and Logan comparison, what I don't get is why that arguement is considered bad when I got the idea from one of Comic Stooge's CaVs, I think I even used more scans than him and more clarification points. But I will look into it.

Fair enough. Like I said, not bad for your first CaV. Maybe warlock could help answer your Wolverine and Sabretooth question. He has much more knowledge on them then I do