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#1 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

Roronoa Zoro - Pre-Timeskip (nickzambuto)

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VS

Senator Armstrong (tparks)

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Rules

Generic comicvine rules. Standard equipment, morals, whatever, blah, blah, blah... I'm sure we all get the gist by now. Anything important I can edit in before the CAV starts.

Location

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#2 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@nickzambuto - This work for you?

I love it. Just edit in that this will be Pre-Timeskip Zoro, because even though he's currently stronger, I'm still not fully caught up with the storyline, so it's just easier for me to use feats from before the timeskip.

Since you don't watch One Piece I'll get working on my post asap, if not tonight then I'll definitely post it tomorrow morning.

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#4 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Take your time. I'm in no rush. I'm ok with this CaV lasting as long as it has to.

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#5 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks:

Roronoa Zoro is the swordsman of the Strawhat Pirates and currently one of the strongest men in the world. After making a promise to his late childhood friend Kuina that one of them was going to become the world's greatest swordsman, Zoro dedicated his entire life to constant training so that he could one day challenge Dracule Mihawk, the current greatest swordsman in the world, and take the title for himself.

Now Armstrong, he's the anti-swordsman. His entire powerset is tailor-made for canceling out bladed weapons. Against a guy like Roronoa, that makes him a major threat. However, despite Armstrong's great power, Zoro is the pirate who possesses the skill, the dedication, and the strength necessary to overcome the senator's nanomachine hardened flesh, and quite literally cut him down.

Now unlike Raiden who uses an H/F Blade and can just muscle his way through steel, katanas in One Piece aren't super powerful like that, meaning Zoro has to rely on skill and precision to cut durable objects rather than brute force. Now that might sound like a disadvantage, but it's actually the key to defeating Armstrong. Take Raiden for example, if something is harder/stronger than his H/F Blade, then there's nothing he can do to cut it, as demonstrated against Armstrong. Zoro meanwhile, is limited only by his own skill, which doesn't have a limit. He can cut virtually anything, provided he's determined enough.

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Daz Bones AKA Mr. 1 had the ability to turn any part of his body into solid steel, effectively making him immune to swordsman, but by sensing the "rhythm" of his steel Zoro was able to defeat him with just one sword. It'll take a lot of focus, but Armstrong's nanomachines aren't impenetrable. Zoro can figure out how to cut through him, just like he figured out how to cut through Daz. He has the ability to cut "nothing" as well as "everything" -- perfect precision.

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Now I know that cutting through steel isn't exactly impressive by Armstrong's standards, but after figuring out how to sense the rhythm in things, Zoro's cutting ability continued to grow to the point where he now claims that he can cut through steel "like fruit." He was even able to chop through Bartholomew Kuma, a powerful cyborg who's durability is most likely on par with Armstrong's, if not surpassing (Kuma is one of the strongest characters in One Piece so I'd definitely rank him as overall more powerful than Armstrong).

I'm not saying Zoro can chop Armstrong in half with one attack, but if he keeps hacking at him as the fight goes on eventually the Senator is gonna drop. I know Armstrong has some low-mid level healing factor, but that didn't stop Raiden from killing him. One stab was all it took to weaken Armstrong to the point where Raiden could overpower him in a grapple and then speedblitz him.

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Before the stab, Armstrong was manhandling Raiden in strength and could easily react to Zandatsu. Meanwhile a stab wound for Zoro is nothing.

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In early One Piece Buggy the Clown stabbed Zoro by complete surprise, but Zoro still retained enough strength to flip over a cannon and then carry a giant stone cage that took five men to move by himself (keep in mind this was when Zoro was still largely peak human).

Now I know Armstrong was stabbed in the gut whereas Zoro got stabbed in the side, which is a big difference, but take a look at what Roronoa does a little while later.

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While fighting Cabaji who was attacking Zoro's wound, the swordsman impaled himself and basically ripped out his own hip, just to prove that he could take it. He proceeded to defeat Cabaji soundly.

As you can see, Zoro can take a lot more damage than Armstrong. His fight with Mr. 1 is also a testament to that, Zoro received several fatal injuries during that battle before figuring out how to cut steel.

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Zoro is able to momentarily block a technique coming so fast and hard that the building behind gets split into several pieces despite not making contact (sheer air pressure caused by the force of the blow, I don't think Armstrong could match that output so Zoro can probably block his strikes too), and then survives being crushed under hundreds of tons of rubble which he proceeds to lift over his head and throw at Daz.

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Zoro is nearly eviscerated by Mr. 1's buzzsaws jamming into his stomach, and then is exposed to a technique which cuts through him and into the pillar behind. After this Zoro stands up and defeats Daz in the clip above. I know Armstrong doesn't deal slicing damage like this, but it still goes to show how much damage Zoro can endure considering he lost about a bucket of blood and all the skin on his abdomen and stayed strong.

Going back to what I said about Zoro most likely needing to hack away at Armstrong before he finally gets through the nanomachines, I just want to say that Roronoa has more than enough speed to say he can do it without getting beat up too much. Right after entering the Grand Line, Zoro could move at speeds completely imperceptible to the human brain despite being a distance away (if he was closer than it would be easier to escape their sight, but being so far away puts this feat in a different league basically)

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Zoro is facing down 100 Baroque Works bounty hunters and manages to climb down from his position atop the building, travel hundreds of feet, and integrate himself into the center of the crowd without being noticed, in an instant.

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He disappears again the instant they spot him, tricking the agents into shooting each other.

Zoro is considerably faster than Raiden and most likely faster than Armstrong as well. His samurai instincts certainly gives him a bump in reaction time even if he's outmatched in raw speed. The speed and skill to dodge attacks combined with his inhuman endurance, there's no way the Senator can put Zoro down, before he gets put down himself.

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#6 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Whoa! Zoro is a bad*ss! Great post man. Mad respect.

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A quick heads up before I get into my post: You're first video says it won't play in the U.S., so I can't watch it. Let me know if you post another version so I can check it out.

Anyways, I'm inclined to agree with a lot of what was said in you post.

Now Armstrong, he's the anti-swordsman. His entire powerset is tailor-made for canceling out bladed weapons. Against a guy like Roronoa, that makes him a major threat. However, despite Armstrong's great power, Zoro is the pirate who possesses the skill, the dedication, and the strength necessary to overcome the senator's nanomachine hardened flesh, and quite literally cut him down.

Now unlike Raiden who uses an H/F Blade and can just muscle his way through steel, katanas in One Piece aren't super powerful like that, meaning Zoro has to rely on skill and precision to cut durable objects rather than brute force. Now that might sound like a disadvantage, but it's actually the key to defeating Armstrong. Take Raiden for example, if something is harder/stronger than his H/F Blade, then there's nothing he can do to cut it, as demonstrated against Armstrong. Zoro meanwhile, is limited only by his own skill, which doesn't have a limit. He can cut virtually anything, provided he's determined enough.

What you say about Raiden, and his reliance on his strength and H/F blade is completely true. Raiden was screwed in his fight with Armstrong. I think we both can admit Raiden would have had no chance if it wasn't for Wolf's interference and bringing Raiden Jetstream Sam's sword. Even then, it was a serious uphill battle for Raiden.

If Zoro is able to actually use his skill to find a way to cut Armstrong, then we've got ourselves an amazing fight on our hands. From the feats you've provided so far though, I'm not convinced.

From what I saw, Zoro's best feat was cutting down Kuma.

He was even able to chop through Bartholomew Kuma, a powerful cyborg who's durability is most likely on par with Armstrong's, if not surpassing (Kuma is one of the strongest characters in One Piece so I'd definitely rank him as overall more powerful than Armstrong).

After this quote, I'm sure all the One Piece fans reading this are fist pumping and saying "Right on, nickzambuto!", but for the sake of my Anime/Manga ignorance, I'd really like to see some some credible feats to backup this statement. He was kind of just standing there in the video, so I didn't get much of an idea of him from that. Certainly not anything that makes me believe he's at Armstrong level.

Raiden on the other hand...

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As I'm sure you know, this is Metal Gear Excelsus he is shredding to ribbons. His sword slides through it like it is literally just air it's passing through. To quote your quote of Zoro:

Zoro's cutting ability continued to grow to the point where he now claims that he can cut through steel "like fruit."

Raiden cut's through Excelsus like air.

In a codec conversation during this fight (forgive me for not having it handy, I'll try to record/quote it by the end of this CaV), describes Excelsus and why it is is so huge and beefy. In the time of MGR, Metal Gears were becoming inferior weapons. A small squad of Cyborg Ninjas could overwhelm a Metal Gear with ease. The early Metal Gears were still crazy durable, but they were also made for mobility, so they were lighter weight. Excelsus on the other hand, was made to be the Cyborg stopper. It's not only huge, but designed with denser and more durable armor. It's not fast like the other Metal Gears by any stretch, but it's not supposed to be. It's supposed to be so durable, that not even Cyborg Ninjas could cut through it. I guess the engineer didn't plan on any Cyborg Ninjas on Raidens level..

I'd also like to point out that Raiden possesses the Anime/Manga gift of being able to cut things much larger then what should be physically possible with his sword. In the Gif above, the leg of Excelsus Raiden cuts off is quite a bit thicker then his sword's length, and he's not even all that close to the leg either, but he still slashes it clean through. I thought this is important to point out, because it appears like Zoro likely is capable of this as well.

So Raiden can cut down the un-cuttable metal gear, even at thicknesses that should be physically impossible, so you would think Armstrong should be a pushover. Well...

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Raiden's sword doesn't even leave a scratch on Armstrong.

I'd be very surprised if this is somehow different for Zoro, and I think this will depend a lot on what you can show for Kuma.

Armstrong has plenty of more durability feats to back this up, but I don't feel they are necessary unless something a bit more substantial is shown for Zoro's cutting ability.

Armstrong is more then just a sword stopper, he can dish out more punishment then I'm guessing Zoro has ever experienced.

In early One Piece Buggy the Clown stabbed Zoro by complete surprise, but Zoro still retained enough strength to flip over a cannon and then carry a giant stone cage that took five men to move by himself (keep in mind this was when Zoro was still largely peak human).

As you can see, Zoro can take a lot more damage than Armstrong. His fight with Mr. 1 is also a testament to that, Zoro received several fatal injuries during that battle before figuring out how to cut steel.

Zoro is able to momentarily block a technique coming so fast and hard that the building behind gets split into several pieces despite not making contact (sheer air pressure caused by the force of the blow, I don't think Armstrong could match that output so Zoro can probably block his strikes too), and then survives being crushed under hundreds of tons of rubble which he proceeds to lift over his head and throw at Daz.

Zoro is nearly eviscerated by Mr. 1's buzzsaws jamming into his stomach, and then is exposed to a technique which cuts through him and into the pillar behind. After this Zoro stands up and defeats Daz in the clip above. I know Armstrong doesn't deal slicing damage like this, but it still goes to show how much damage Zoro can endure considering he lost about a bucket of blood and all the skin on his abdomen and stayed strong.

Those are the main points of Zoro's durability from your post. Zoro probably can live through more fatal wounds then Armstrong, I will admit that. The problem is that none of those feats can hold a candle to the type of punishment Armstrong can dish out. Also, I'm far from convinced that Zoro can even deal a scratch to Armstrong, so that point might be inconsequential even though I agree with it.

Armstrong is going to be dealing in blunt force trauma. The best durability shown for Zoro in your post for this type of attack is 100 tons. We both know that 100 tons is pretty insignificant in the MGR universe, and Armstrong is at the top of this universe.

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I'm curious how Zoro would look after a Big Boot like that. I don't see him tanking that from the couple of feats shown so far. I think the side of Excelsus would be covered in Zoro if he had to take a shot like that.

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Armstrong punched Raiden so hard, that his chin literally turned orange from the heat while it was sliding across Excelsus. Zoro doesn't have the armor Raiden does. Armstrong might just punch Zoro's head clean off if he connects with something like this. This is just Armstrong warming up too. He hasn't even decided to kill Raiden at this point, so he's holding back his strength.

I'm confident that Armstrong will be able to perform these same attacks against Zoro as well, even with the speed you mention Zoro has.

Zoro is able to momentarily block a technique coming so fast and hard that the building behind gets split into several pieces despite not making contact (sheer air pressure caused by the force of the blow, I don't think Armstrong could match that output so Zoro can probably block his strikes too),

Zoro is considerably faster than Raiden and most likely faster than Armstrong as well. His samurai instincts certainly gives him a bump in reaction time even if he's outmatched in raw speed. The speed and skill to dodge attacks combined with his inhuman endurance, there's no way the Senator can put Zoro down, before he gets put down himself.

Zoro is crazy fast, but I don't think we can say he has the fighting speed of Raiden, and Raiden's fighting speed was not enough to give him a significant edge over Armstrong.

The video below shows Raiden entering blade mode. During Blade Mode, action is switched to slow motion, so the viewer can actually see Raiden's movements. This video, has taken away the slow motion, to show what Raiden would look like to a normal person, without that slow motion effect. I know that Blade Mode is a game play feat, but there are tons of instances throughout the game, where Raiden is required to use blade mode to advance, so it's something that Raiden had to do story-wise.

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So even though this is game play, it shows what Raiden was designed to be capable of during blade mode. Even if we considered Raiden only half this speed, he would still be faster then anything I've seen from Zoro, and Armstrong had no problem reacting to Raiden's speed.

Armstrong is no slow poke either. Most of his attacks don't look like the most speedy, but that's because his brute strength really only requires him to take one punch. When necessary, Armstrong can perform attacks with blinding speed.

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To sum up this post.

  1. Zoro hasn't shown the skill required to cut Armstrong (pending your Kuma feats)
  2. Zoro's best feat of tanking blunt force trauma is 100 tons, this is pretty insignificant when compared to Armstrong.
  3. Armstrong has the ability to land several blows against Raiden, Zoro is not going to be any different, except Zoro will not survive these attacks.
  4. Armstrong can distract Zoro by mooning him.
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#7 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: A quick heads up before I get into my post: You're first video says it won't play in the U.S., so I can't watch it. Let me know if you post another version so I can check it out.

Are you serious? I uploaded that video myself because the full clip wasn't on YouTube and you're telling me it was a waste of time. Uggghhhhhh.

Alright, how about this:

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Read from right to left

Here Zoro explains how he cuts steel in a somewhat rough translation, then he demonstrates by slicing up Mr. 1. The explanation is more important than the feat since again, steel isn't much to Armstrong's durability. Zoro has the ability to sense the "rhythm" or "breath" of everything around him; it allowed him to dodge all that debri just off instinct, and detect his sword underneath a rock. By slicing according to the rhythm of his target, Zoro can either cut nothing, or anything -- absolutely perfect precision.

Now about Raiden, this is pretty trivial but I don't really see much difference between the way he cuts Excelsus and the way someone would fruit. Have you ever taken a katana to a pineapple? Not a lot of resistance.

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I mean even these guys are making perfect straight cuts and they're just batting at the fruit. About Excelsus, it's very impressive that Raiden can cut through it's legs, and everything you said about it being a tank is true, however that's why Raiden had to destroy it's armor first. He couldn't just chop the leg in half, he had to make multiple strikes in blade mode to remove the armor, then he chopped off the much weaker leg. Zoro was able to cut a sea train in half longways without making any contact at all, so his cutting ability doesn't lag behind at all.

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So exactly how durable is Kuma you ask?

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Durable enough that he can just stand still while Sanji delivers a fully powered kick to his head. Not only did Kuma tank the hit, but Sanji actually injured himself to the point where he was completely taken out of the fight. THAT is hardness.

And Sanji's pretty tough, to say the least.

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Sanji slingshots Luffy into Wapol, into a hippo, sending the hippo across the entire island, Sanji oneshots a Banana Crocodile which is strong enough to prey on Godzilla-sized sea monsters, Sanji kicks a giant back into a standing position as it's falling, Sanji blocks Kalifa's kick while holding back almost all of his strength, Sanji blocks Jyabura's ten-finger pistol sending out a shockwave, and Sanji kicks chunks of a building (which Zoro cut) hard enough to injure Oars.

Comparing him to Raiden, Sanji was easily on par with white armor Raiden back during Alabasta/Sky Island, and I'd say he's almost as strong as black armor Raiden by Ennies Lobby/Thriller Bark. Kalifa can kick hard enough to send air pressure waves that slice through buildings from meters away, and Jyabura is nearly four times stronger than her in human form. In wolf form (which he was against Sanji) he is even stronger, and on top of all that the ten-finger pistol on it's own is like, twenty times stronger than a kick. As for Oars, he's literally a giant among giants and his epithet was "the continent puller." He can't push as much weight as Raiden, but considering all of Sanji's feats are already striking it really is a testament to the hardness of Kuma's body. What with his nonexistent striking feats, there's really no reason to believe that Jack can hit any harder than Sanji, so if he were to punch Kuma I'm inclined to believe the result would be much the same. Keep in mind, Sanji is the guy who had multiple broken bones and straight up did not care, yet Kuma's face put him out of commission. That's hardness. And Zoro sliced him nearly straight in half on his first try while severely weakened. Against Armstrong he'll have some time to practice first and figure out the senator's rhythm, like he did against Mr. 1.

With Luffy's assistance Zoro was even able to destroy Aqua Laguna, a wave powerful enough to destroy Water 7.

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This makes Zoro's cutting ability nearly city-level, but his best feat is still regarded as cutting Kuma. He was able to defeat the Warlord's durability, whereas Sanji didn't even push the limits of it.

On the subject of durability feats, even from a man of Armstrong's strength it'll take more than a few attacks to kill Zoro. I mean Raiden managed to survive a few dozen of his hits and still had the strength to murder him in the end. So let's compare Zoro's durability to Raiden's.

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One of Jack's best durability feats is surviving a fall out of a helicopter from above the Denver skyscrapers. Super impressive, but Zoro has done similar.

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Take a look at how tall that clock tower is.

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Zoro falls from the top of it, landing on his head, and laughs. This was right after his fight with Mr. 1 too so I imagine his wounds would have been pretty aggravated, but he doesn't care.

This should warrant Zoro surviving at least a few of Armstrong's punches since Raiden endured quite a good number of them, but Zoro didn't really prove that he can take damage until Thriller Bark. There he had his shadow stolen and woke up within a matter of hours through sheer force of will, despite it being impossible to wake up before three days, and then went on to battle the master samurai Ryumma. Here's where it gets crazy; already pretty exhausted, Zoro and the rest of the crew were forced to battle Oars, where Zoro managed to survive several of the giants attacks, most notably getting kicked a kilometer into the air, having a building thrown at him, and getting knee slammed into a tower. Keep in mind, the entire fight lasted several chapters and was nothing short of grueling. The below scans are just highlights of Zoro tanking direct hits.

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Oars is already stronger than Armstrong so this alone would be impressive, but afterwards Zoro retained enough strength to battle Bartholomew Kuma and tank the Ursus Shock.

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This explosion covered the entire island and Zoro and Sanji were the only people who stayed conscious, Sanji struggling to walk and Zoro dodging lasers and cutting Kuma's shoulder. And don't forget that Zoro had an entire fight scene against Kuma before this. Kuma's mission was to capture Luffy, but Zoro offers himself in the captain's place. Kuma is so impressed by Zoro's dedication that he offers to let Luffy live, but only if Zoro takes his place -- and to take his place Zoro would obviously have to take in Luffy's pain. So Kuma extracts all the fatigue and injuries Luffy accumulated over the course of Thriller Bark (which includes getting stomped on by an island buster) and Zoro chooses to take it himself, ON TOP OF all the injuries he's already sustained. Kuma claims that Zoro would "surely" die if he did this; this is after several characters claimed Zoro would "surely" die if he got hit by Oars, and several characters claimed he would "surely" die if he fought Kuma, and several characters claimed he would "surely" die if the Ursus Shock went off. So with that in mind I bet you can guess whether Zoro died this time or not.

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Feel free to skip around as the scene is quite long and you've already seen the beginning where Zoro cuts him.

Clearly Zoro has some of the best damage soak in One Piece, saying a lot for a series that has some of the best damage soak in fiction. But keep in mind, Zoro doesn't have to tank Armstrong's hits. He should be able to block a good deal of the attacks as he has done so to equal and more powerful opponents.

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Zoro stalemates Luffy's Gum Gum Bazooka, which has sent people flying to entirely different islands, and matches him in a grapple. During the same saga, Luffy while poisoned, dehydrated, utterly exhausted and bleeding out was able to punch through Crocodile's Desert Spada (which creates massive chasms in the Earth that go farther than the eye can see), put him through several feet of solid bedrock and high enough into the sky that his body could be seen throughout the country, destroying numerous houses and rupturing an entire city block.

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I know plenty about Armstrong and I don't think he's capable of replicating this. Granted, the Gum Gum Storm is a bit stronger than the Gum Gum Bazooka, but the latter is still Luffy's most powerful basic technique, and if Zoro can block that then he can block Armstrong's punches.

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Here's him blocking Mr. 1's strike again, just reiterating that Daz's technique struck hard enough to split the building behind into multiple pieces through just air pressure.

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The force of Zoro clashing with Kaku creates a shockwave powerful enough to shift the roof of the Tower of Law, which probably weighed about a thousand tons or so.

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With the Black Blade Shushui, Zoro's power was enhanced even further to the point where he could actually deflect an attack from Oars, who once again is SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than Armstrong.

And then there's the speed to dodge attacks, plus skill has got to be taken into consideration. A lot of possibilities Zoro has for dealing with Armstrong's attacks, I really don't see the senator putting him down before he gets put down.

Comparing Raiden's speed to Zoro's, setting the YouTube player to slow motion I can see that Raiden is averaging over 10 strikes per second in Blade Mode. Impressive speed, but Raiden isn't in Blade Mode all the time, it's just that -- a mode. Doktor claims that it's a feature of his new body, he can increase his own perception for a time being, but it takes a lot of energy. Against Armstrong Raiden was in regular mode, which is significantly slower. Yes Armstrong can react to Zandatsu to a degree, but to be honest I think Zoro vanishing from a crowd of people while 100 feet away is more impressive than 10 slashes per second. In that clip, we can see Raiden's strikes; they're basically a blur, but they're perceivable. Zoro, is not.

Besides, 10 attacks in one second is small time for One Piece. Luffy and Sanji do that all the time and Zoro has stalemated the both of them.

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If that's not enough for you, Zoro while suffering fatal injuries dealt by Dracule Mihawk, the greatest swordsman in the world, was able to catch swords thrown behind his back, weave through all six of Hatchan's swords at once, and speedblitz the fishman.

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Hatchan could swing his swords fast enough to create a tornado that was ripping Arlong Park apart. And Zoro maneuvered through all six of them. It shows his flexibility too; on the subject of agility, Zoro was also able to weave through Kuma's rapid fire "Pad Cannon" which repels air at the speed of light.

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I think it should be clear that Zoro possesses the speed and agility to outmaneuver Armstrong for the most part. The game breaker is whether he can figure out how to cut him or not. Considering he was able to disrupt the island-busting Aqua Laguna with Luffy's help, and on his own he cut Bartholomew Kuma, my bet is on he can. After all Raiden figured out how to kill him, why can't Zoro?

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#8 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
  1. Armstrong can distract Zoro by mooning him.

Listen, Zoro hangs out with Luffy all day, that just isn't going to work, period.

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#9 Edited by homicidalmaniac (10894 posts) - - Show Bio

Great CAV so far.Tag me when voting start.

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#10 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks Just givin' you a ring.

For some reason I didn't get an alert on this. I thought you were still working on it. Thanks for the reminder, I'll get to this tonight.

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#12 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Now about Raiden, this is pretty trivial but I don't really see much difference between the way he cuts Excelsus and the way someone would fruit. Have you ever taken a katana to a pineapple? Not a lot of resistance.

Kudos to using the live action fruit ninja video. Lol. I do agree with you here on the fruit and air comparison.

The sea train thing was pretty legit. I do still think Raiden has an easier time with cutting through pretty much anything though (beside's armstrong), because he doesn't need to learn anything to do it. Just look in the gif below at how easily he slices through every part of Metal Gear Ray with several slashes while running at a full sprint.

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But like we've already seen, this still isn't enough to cut through Armstrong.

So exactly how durable is Kuma you ask?

Durable enough that he can just stand still while Sanji delivers a fully powered kick to his head. Not only did Kuma tank the hit, but Sanji actually injured himself to the point where he was completely taken out of the fight. THAT is hardness.

And Sanji's pretty tough, to say the least.

Sanji slingshots Luffy into Wapol, into a hippo, sending the hippo across the entire island, Sanji oneshots a Banana Crocodile which is strong enough to prey on Godzilla-sized sea monsters, Sanji kicks a giant back into a standing position as it's falling, Sanji blocks Kalifa's kick while holding back almost all of his strength, Sanji blocks Jyabura's ten-finger pistol sending out a shockwave, and Sanji kicks chunks of a building (which Zoro cut) hard enough to injure Oars.

While all of this showed impressive striking power, I think Raiden can match that strength level, and I think Armstrong took a lot more punishment from Raiden then what Kuma did from Zoro, yet Armstrong took no damage at all.

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  • Here's the blocking Ray, then tossing him in the sky that's seen in pretty much every Raiden thread. This was his lesser suit and enhancements as well.

And let's not forget the famous Excelsus strength feats. It wouldn't be a MGR thread without at least one of them...

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And then the Coup de Grace with one of Excelsus' own legs (well, almost the coup de grace)

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So I think it's safe to say Raiden is at least as strong, and Armstrong was not effected in the slightest by Raiden's striking power.

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In the Gif I posted above. Raiden charges for a full power punch. As I've argued before in random Raiden threads on here, Raiden is pushing the 10,000 ton range in strength, and Armstrong doesn't even flinch. For the sake of this thread, I think that counts as at least of high of a a durability as Kuma.

But that's not all from the Senator in tanking punches, there's still more, but I'll leave it here showing him tanking speed punches from Raiden while not even being phased.

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While I'm not sold that Kuma is as durable as Armstrong, he looks like he could be close. Anyways, even if he is, Armstrong isn't a giant target that is just standing there waiting for Zoro to come and slice him in half. Armstrong is skilled enough and fast enough to put up a fight with Raiden. He's more then just a big tank that can absorb punishment, which I will go into shortly.

The rest of your post goes into a lot of points about characters I'm pretty clueless about. I think you did a good enough job describing them though, to where I don't think I'm going to argue the merit of them. Everything looked well described and accurately portrayed with your selection of scans and videos.

Here's the main thing I took from the rest of you post:

  • Zoro has tanked damage from characters as strong as Armstrong
  • Zoro has greater speed then Raiden

After looking over your scans and videos, I really am inclined to agree and am now convinced this would be an epic battle and I can't honestly say that I can guarantee a win from Armstrong. However, there still are some advantages Armstrong has that give him a great chance of winning.

His biggest strength in this match is that Zoro needs to learn the "rythymn" of Amrstrong so he can cut him. I think this will prove very difficult, because the composition of Armstrong is ever changing. I'm not sure if Zoro will ever get a chance to learn how he needs to cut, because each time he strikes Armstrong, the makeup of his body is altered. The reason his body is always changing is because of one reason. Nanomachines, son.

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Here, Armstrong shows how he is able to just stand there and take punishment from Raiden throughout the entire battle without even taking a scratch. Armstrong's body is full of nanomachines that harden in response to physical trauma. He can also control them at will, as he shows himself filling his arm with them. I'd argue this would cause Zoro a great deal of trouble learning the "rythymn" of Armstrong's body and making a cut, because his body is changing so rapidly.

While I do agree that Zoro also has the speed advantage, I think he's going to be getting hit, because not everyone of Armstrong's attacks are pure physical punches or kicks. For example, he can draw upon the power of his nanomachines, and unleash it in a AOE attack.

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I'm not going to try and claim that's enough to keep Zoro down, but it is almost guarantee to hit him if he is close, since there is no real blocking or dodging. This can at least help to wear him down so Armstrong can hit with some of his more powerful attacks.

He can also just stomp the ground for a "thunderclap" without the clapping part.

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He has attacks that cause fire to burst from the ground by unleashing his power with a powerful stomp.

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He can also increase his speed in short bursts, by charging himself with energy.

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By changing speeds in mid battle like this, he has a better chance to actually catch Zoro unprepared. While I do agree Zoro can block some of Amrstrong's attacks, if he is not completely set in his block, Armstrong will power through the block and overwhelm him. Zoro also is going to want to be careful using his swords too much for defense, because this could happen.

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We've already seen Raiden use his sword to block blows from Ray and Excelsus, so you know the durability of this blade, but Armstrong snaps it with just his grip strength alone. Zoro without swords is going to lose every time.

I'll keep this post from becoming too long and cut it short here, but here are the few main points of this post

  1. I agree that Zoro has the strength, durability, and speed to make this a match.
  2. Zoro is going to have a very tough time learning the "rythymn" of Armstrong, because the composition of his body is constantly changing.
  3. Armstrong has advantages to slow Zoro down with his AOE attacks and fire attacks to where he can start landing his more powerful attacks.
  4. This is a fun CaV so far.
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#13 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: In regards to Kuma vs Armstrong, I can play devil's advocate and agree that they have a similar level of durability when you consider the fact that Sanji kicking Kuma had much the same effect as Raiden punching Armstrong. Sanji can't suplex Metal Gears like Jack, but he does have much better striking feats, or I should say he has existing striking feats, so it evens out. Therefore, wouldn't you agree that if Zoro can cut Kuma, he can probably cut Armstrong as well? The altering state of the nanomachines won't throw him off very much, Mr. 1 wasn't constantly steel after all, he only turned when he was attacked just like Armstrong yet Zoro wasn't thrown off at all.

As for Raiden, I do feel like Zoro's cutting ability should be on another. Captain T-Bone was a legendary marine known for his phenomenal cutting ability. He could slice entire ships and even a Godzilla sized sea king straight in half without effort, keep in mind the fact that his sword obviously wasn't even close to as long as such objects.

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Could Raiden replicate a slash like that? Keep in mind that's a sea train he's slicing through, solid steel. I'd put Raiden more on his level just in terms of cutting ability, yet when he came into contact with Zoro, the pirate proved himself superior to the Marine by cutting through his slash and besting him in a matter of seconds.

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Now you still might not be totally convinced of Zoro's testicular fortitude, but I do have an ace in the hole.

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When pushed to his absolute limits against an opponent who's strength dwarfs his own (this has only happened three times in the entire series) Zoro unleashes Asura, the image of a demon that effectively triples his cutting ability and was tailor-made for opponents like Armstrong. Using it, Zoro completely shattered Kaku's most powerful Rankyaku with ease, and the attack still had enough energy to oneshot Kaku himself after softening him up some throughout the fight. Keep in mind, that Rankyaku is what split the Tower of Law in half.

Using this technique, Zoro would surely destroy Armstrong, and if the senator is really that much more powerful than him than it's bound to happen.

Armstrong is skilled enough and fast enough to put up a fight with Raiden. He's more then just a big tank that can absorb punishment, which I will go into shortly.

He kinda is though. Armstrong's fighting skills stretch as far as playing football in college. He was a Navyman who never saw any combat, he makes use of some wrestling moves but those are useless without his strength. He's not unskilled, but he isn't skilled either. He's just average. Raiden was able to handle him in H2H combat using CQC techniques, and was only eventually overwhelmed because Armstrong wouldn't take damage. I'm inclined to believe that a man who's trained for as long as Zoro would have the dexterity to keep the advantage in this fight.

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Unlike Raiden, Zoro has feats of taking on physically stronger foes and successfully outmaneuvering them, like Mr. 1. It's worth mentioning that Daz Bones is one of the most feared assassins on the Grand Line making him very skilled in his own right, enough to kill 800 Marines all at once with ease, albeit Crocodile was helping.

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Most importantly, Zoro was skilled enough to defeat Ryuuma. Ryuuma actually has his own manga where he slayed a dragon and became a legend, so he's a pretty big deal, and in One Piece he was skilled enough to toy with Brook. Zoro has several miscellaneous feats in this battle like Brook and Franky being unable to see him and fighting Ryuuma on an almost sheer rooftop, but the main thing is Brook mentions that the two were both power-based swordsman so they were basically on par physically, meaning Zoro bested him with pure swordsmanship. It's also important to note that Zoro's three-sword style blows his two-sword style out of the water, so suffice to say he's more than skilled enough to keep Armstrong at bay for the most part.

Armstrong's AOE attacks give him a shot, but Raiden can dodge them so obviously it's not impossible. I'm betting Zoro can as well. If not, he totally has the pain tolerance to ignore it. I already showed plenty feats of him tanking massive amounts of damage, but I think one page in particular sums up nicely exactly how much pain Zoro can handle.

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He hacked halfway through his own feet to escape Mr. 3's wax and gave no indication of being in any pain whatsoever.

On several occasions Zoro has gone passed his own limits and simply denied death. On Thriller Bark while fighting Oars, who is a zombie, one of the pirates watching is astonished at how Zoro just keeps getting up and actually yells out "I'm starting to wonder who's the zombie here!" Funnily enough, chapter 84 where Zoro is struggling with the fatal wounds inflicted on him by Dracule Mihawk while battling Hatchan is simply titled "Zombie."

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#14 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio