CaV: Rock Lee (GothamCiti) vs Infernape (StormShadow_X)

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#1  Edited By GothamCiti

Rock Lee (Part 1) represented by GothamCiti
Rock Lee (Part 1) represented by GothamCiti

VS

Infernape (Pokémon Anime) represented by StormShadow_X
Infernape (Pokémon Anime) represented by StormShadow_X

Rules:

  • Both combatants are in character but determined to win in a random encounter.
  • Rock Lee's incarnation is from Naruto (Part 1) manga while Infernape is from the Pokémon anime.
  • Rock Lee has standard gear and a vial of sake while Infernape is composite with pre-evolution feats.
  • Starting distance is 30 ft.
  • Win by KO or Death.

Challenge A Viner Rules

  • Do not start extra arguments, post unnecessary scans/videos or interfere in the debate itself in any way. If you wish to inform either of us on anything important or correct us on a point, send us a private message.
  • If any of the above is excessively broken, we may request a mod to assist.
  • Your vote should be decided based on the debating quality and abilities of the participants. Not necessarily on the characters they are representing.
  • A reason for your voting choice would be greatly appreciated too.
  • Regular posting/commenting is fine.
  • As always, may the best debaters win.

Location:

Chūnin Exams Preliminaries Arena
Chūnin Exams Preliminaries Arena

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Rock Lee

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T4V please. this should be good.

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#7  Edited By GothamCiti

Rock Lee (Part 1):

(Note that manga scans read right to left)
(Note that manga scans read right to left)

Background:

Rock Lee is a shinobi of the Lee Clan from Konahagakure (Hidden Leaf Village) who is unable to utilize ninjutsu (ninja techniques) or genjutsu (illusion techniques) due to an apparent lack of talent.

As a result of his shortcomings, Lee focused all of his efforts into vigorous physical training with his teacher Might Guy in order to physically augment himself into a superhuman taijutsu (physical techniques) specialist/master and subsequently prove to the world that he can still be a splendid ninja.

Physicals:

Strength:

Around the beginning of the series, Lee was strong enough to nonchalantly intercept and halt a kick from the prodigy Sasuke Uchicha and Kotetsu Hagane (this doubles as a speed feat for Lee with weights).

For reference, Sasuke was physically strong enough to oneshot a huge bear with a kick as a genin (junior ninja).

Lee was also strong enough to punch through the earth and casually uproot a massive tree root from the ground in what is likely a multi-ton feat.

Not to mention, Lee's training weights (which he can casually carry and move with) were heavy enough to shatter the ground and shake the entire arena when dropped fairly high in spite of their mass which indicates they also weigh several tons. To give you a basic idea of how heavy they are, a rough calc for the leg weights were estimated to be ten tons in each ankle. Note that the weights could still be potentially heavier since the rough calc isn't exactly definite.

Speed:

As an immensely fast opponent, Rock Lee is casually FTE+ even when slowed down with his heavy training weights.

For starters, Lee with weights was overall shown to effortlessly outclass Sasuke in cqc due to a significant speed advantage (which was further augmented by Lee opening the First Gate to efficiently break Sasuke's guard during their formal match) early in the series.

Impressively, Lee with weights subsequently managed to blitz Sasuke despite the prodigy resorting to use the Sharingan (an ability which at this point allows the user to copy the opponents slightest muscle movement and react more efficiently via heightening their perceptions).

As Lee explained, Sasuke's enhanced perceptions were useless since Sasuke did not have the necessary physical prowess to keep up and counter Lee's faster movements with the First Gate opened.

For reference, Sasuke around this time was already FTE since he displayed a noticeable speed advantage against the shinobi Haku in cqc without using the Sharingan.

This is impressive for Sasuke and Lee via scaling since Haku himself displayed FTE movement early in the series when he seized the swords of the samurai Zōri and Waraji without the duo even perceiving Haku's swift movement.

Essentially, a considerably suppressed Lee still displayed speed massively superior to FTE opponents.

Durability/Endurance:

Against high blunt force, a worn out Lee was able to withstand getting hit multiple times by Gaara's sand which was overall shown to be strong enough to shatter the wall and ground of the battlefield.

No Caption Provided

It's worth noting, Lee was enduring through the sand attacks despite being already worn down from prior usage of the First Gate/Front Lotus technique.

Eight Gates:

The Eight Gates are basically chakra points which inherently limit the human body's physical potential in order to prevent physical overexertion. According to Might Guy, the human body normally uses 20% of their true muscles' strength in order to prevent them from disintegrating.

Here's an overview of the different types of Gates and their drawbacks from Kakashi Hatake and Might Guy:

As a result of intense physical training, Lee is able to unlock five of the Eight Gates to severely surpass his base physical limits at the cost of extreme physical strain to the body.

I'll further showcase Lees' usage of the Eight Gates as the debate goes on.

Drunken Fist:

The Drunken Fist is a style of combat unique to Lee which makes him a physical powerhouse after getting intoxicated with even a tiny amount of alcohol (since Lee is a lightweight).

Drunk Lee has a single notable showing where he was able to throw off Kimimaro and gain the upper hand with erratic movements and sheer speed despite Kimimaro being more than a match against a sober Lee who was even unable to successfully tag Kimimaro in a direct fight.

What makes this more impressive for Lee was that he wasn't even in peak physical condition since the fight took place after Lee had just got out of the hospital from a risky surgery. Furthermore, I can elaborate on how Kimimaro isn't a slouch later on.

Basically, this unorthodox style of erratic combat would confuse and overwhelm Infernape in the close range battle and help Lee evade and attack more swiftly with boosted speed.

Game Plan:

In character, Lee has a simple yet effective strategy of attempting to blitz his opponent via nimbly closing the gap and overwhelming Infernape up close in cqc while evading any possible counterattacks.

Lee's biggest advantage is the sheer variety of "ace in the holes" which include the removal of weights, the Eight Gates, and the Drunken Fist. These options can turn the tides in Lee's favor when the going gets tough by immensely augmenting his physical prowess to catch Infernape off guard and overwhelm the Pokémon through vastly superior speed, strength, and even unpredictability. I'm also inclined to give the cqc advantage to Lee since he is a dedicated martial arts specialist. Lastly, Lee has the durability + endurance to last against high blunt force striking power and should be swift enough to outmaneuver Infernapes' fire type attacks/AOE.

I simply see Lee prevailing against Infernape through his physical prowess and sheer willpower.

Okay, good luck! :)
Okay, good luck! :)

@stormshadow_x

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@gothamciti: Cool Cool, in the fight are we staying in the Arena's rectangle ?

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#10  Edited By GothamCiti

@stormshadow_x: I've intended for both of our combatants to potentially move anywhere within the arena.

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@gothamciti: Havent you done a similar matchup like this before?

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#13  Edited By GothamCiti

@cosmic_lantern said:

@gothamciti: Havent you done a similar matchup like this before?

This is my first time using a Naruto character in a CaV, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

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#15  Edited By stormshadow_x

@gothamciti:

No Caption Provided

Introducing Infernape, The Trump Card Of Sinnoh

Infernape is a Fire/Fighting type pokemon and one of the Trump Cards of the main protagonist Ash's team on the same level of Pokemon like Charizard.

He once belonged to Ash's rival, Paul but after being released on the account of being apparently too weak he was taken in by Ash and was able to overcome his old Trainer and prove his worth as one of the strongest pokemon to grace Ash's team.

Evolution

Chimchar<Monferno<Infernape
Chimchar<Monferno<Infernape

Now before we get into abilities and physical stats I must address the concept of evolution in the pokemon world.

Infernape has two prior forms those being Chimchar and Monferno, as Pokemon evolve they gain more specialized moves but save for certain pokemon the Average pokemon also gains Increased Physical stats and overall power in there moves.

So a feat from Chimchar can not only be performed by Infernape but with more ease and can undoubtedly perform something far superior.

Abilities

Infernape being a pokemon can learn various forms of attack but as a Fire/Fighting Type he specializes in Fire Manipulation and physical CQC combat.

Fire Manipulation

Infernape as stated earlier possess fire Manipulation which can be used as a ranged attack or to cover itself and engage and opponent.

  • Flamethrower : Infernape's go to ranged attack that unleashes a powerful stream of fire.

Context : Both of these feats come from Infernape's weakest form in its youth as a Chimchar.

  1. It's flamethrower is powerful enough to clearly be seen over a decent sized city.
  2. Knocks back a Metagross a large heavy Pokemon made completely of steel ( Admittedly it is a Steel type which is weak to Fire but being able to push something back in such a weaker form is impressive regardless)
  • Flame Wheel : Infernape's main CQC fire ability that covers his body in fire that hits hard.

Context : Once again these are feats from his weakest incarnation .

  1. As a Chimchar full control and can somehow see where he's going.
  2. Indirectly knocks two other decent sized pokemon out of the way and sends Metagross flying backwards ( Again a pretty powerful and heavy Pokemon made completely of steel )
  • Inferno Shield : A combination of Flamethrower and spinning to form an AOE/Omni Directional wall of fire.

Context : Still in his weakest form as a Chimchar.

  1. The standard form of the Shield.
  2. The shield while using flame wheel causing a "on the move" version which overpowered a psychic attack.
  • Blaze : Blaze is Infernape special ability when he receives a certain amount of damage allows Infernape to increase its Fire based moves and gives Infernape a "Second Wind" to keep on fighting despite any injuries and damage he received before its activation.
No Caption Provided

CQC Powers

Infernape posses a few moves that are much more direct and purely physical without the backing of fire based abilities.

  • Dig : Exactly what it sounds like, it allows Infernape to effortlessly tunnel through the ground and maneuver under it to dodge or attack foes.

Context : Still in his weakest form as a Chimchar.

  1. Quickly digs under the ground ( Doubles as a strength feat momentarily lifts/pushes the gigantic Onix into the air)
  2. Quickly digs into the Ground (Doubles as a reaction feat quickly dodging a charging onix)
  • Mach Punch : A empowered punch that gives Infernape a burst or prolonged form of speed.

Context : This is Infernape in his second form prior to the one in this debate,After evolving for the first time and just learning the technique.

  1. Effortlessly causes his fist to form after images.
  2. Speed blitzed a decently fast Pokemon who was previously superior in stats and power.

Physical Stats

Infernape is well rounded physical combatant who has great prowess in Strength and Speed along with surprisingly great durability and endurance for a Pokemon species usually labeled as a glass cannon, fortunate This Infernape breaks the mold.

Physical/Striking Power

Note : A vast majority of physical/striking feats for pokemon are tied in to there moves as displayed in the Abilities section as pokemon rarely resort to "normal" fighting.

Context : Both of these feats are done in his two weaker prior forms with the first feat being after just obtaining the move and evolving for the first time.

  1. His mach punch alone is powerful enough to make a gust of wind
  2. As a Chimchar he was able to momentarily strike a Onix into the air, Onix is clearly a giant rock snake so this feat is really impressive.

Note for Feat #2 : I am not implying Chimchar or any form of its form can lift a onix with any ease but do have more than enough physical strength to hit it hard enough to knock it away from the ground.

Durability

Note : Both of these feats display Type advantage over Chimchar. Type advantage is a big factor in the pokemon where an attack that is already impressive would be even more effective against certain other pokemon. EX Chimchar is a fire type at this time and is surviving attacks that are already powerful but also do more damage to him then they would to some other Pokemon.

Context: Both feats are as a Chimchar.

  1. Tanks multiple attacks from Lucario's bone Rush attack which is extremely powerful without the type advantage over Chimchar and yet Chimchar seems to be fine overall. The same attacked easily shattered steel claws that were of impressive size.
  2. Hit by high speed jagged rocks and survived without being koed.

Speed

Context : First Feat is as a Chimchar, Second Feat is as as Monferno.

  1. Showcases early FTE Speed against a pokemon capable of running on walls with pure speed and catches it off guard. The same pokemon is capable of moving like a blur when the attack was literally inches from its face.
  2. Mach punch causes multiple after Images to hit multiple people. ( This is while Monferno was weakened from a previous lost battle)

Initial Thoughts

I haven't shown the full extent of Infernapes power making sure to showcase impressive feats from form prior to Infernape prime to show that Infernape even before his current status was quite impressive.

I think in his prime Infernape will be a worthy combatant for Rock Lee. My thoughts put Infernape with quite a few advantages in Striking power, Durability , and variety in abilities which should make up the clear disadvantage of H2H skill and the debatable topic of Initial Speed.

Can't wait to see where this goes.

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#19  Edited By GothamCiti

Round 2:

No Caption Provided

Counters:

CQC vs Fire Manipulation:

Infernape's composite showings of fire manipulation are all well and good, but I have doubts of Infernape managing to successfully tag Lee due to Lee's skill as a martial artist and the dubious speed of the Pokémon's fire techniques.

For instance, Lee with weights was still agile enough to traverse around the arena and leap several feet in the air while evading offensive ranged attacks from Gaara's sand.

No Caption Provided

In cqc, Lee also skillfully incorporates feints into his cqc techniques to bait opponents and force them to endure the blow as showcased in his fight with Sasuke.

And as I've shown beforehand with the Drunken Fist, Drunk Lee's newfound speed and unpredictability overwhelmed Kimimaro in cqc who was massively superior to Lee w/o weights in peak condition.

Now to establish Kimimaro's prowess with some scaling:

Kimimaro was strong and skilled enough to utterly fodderize hundreds of Naruto Shadow Clones in cqc singlehandedly.

Just so you know, Naruto was physically augmenting himself with chakra from the Kurama/Nine Tailed Fox which is distributed evenly among the shadow clones.

For reference, KN0/Initial Tailed Beast Naruto was strong enough to physically overpower a huge snake to a halt, and utterly speed blitzed Sasuke (Post Chidori Training) who is roughly as fast as Lee w/o weights.

This is because Sasuke (Post Chidori Training) was able to outpace Gaara's automatic sand defenses in a manner comparable to Lee w/o weights.

The Drunken Fist gives Lee more staying power as Lee's intoxication augmented Lee's speed and skill to a level far beyond his suppressed/base levels despite being physically out of shape during his fight with Kimimaro.

Bottom line, Lee's skill advantage will help to offensively pressure Infernape and overcome his varied fire abilities through means of skillful evasion.

Physical/Striking Power:

Dig : Exactly what it sounds like, it allows Infernape to effortlessly tunnel through the ground and maneuver under it to dodge or attack foes.

Context : Still in his weakest form as a Chimchar.

1. Quickly digs under the ground ( Doubles as a strength feat momentarily lifts/pushes the gigantic Onix into the air)

2. Quickly digs into the Ground (Doubles as a reaction feat quickly dodging a charging onix)

A neat technique, but momentarily pushing Lee into the air wouldn't really bother Lee since he's still pretty nimble even with weights and could re-balance himself if launched in the air.

Plus from a physical perspective, I should point out that even base Naruto was also physically capable of tunneling and bursting from underground, while Lee with weights was capable of nonchalantly outclassing base Naruto physically and skillfully.

Furthermore, Lee is fully capable of evading an attack like Dig through his overall speed and agility such as when Lee with weights evaded offensive attacks from Gaara's sand while being mindful of his surroundings.

1. His mach punch alone is powerful enough to make a gust of wind

Creating a gust of wind through movement is something Lee with weights could already accomplish. And Lee's Leaf Whirlwind technique has a comparable effect even when Lee is wearing weights.

2. As a Chimchar he was able to momentarily strike a Onix into the air, Onix is clearly a giant rock snake so this feat is really impressive.

Note for Feat #2 : I am not implying Chimchar or any form of its form can lift a onix with any ease but do have more than enough physical strength to hit it hard enough to knock it away from the ground.

Impressive, but a physically rusty Lee knocking back Kimimaro with a Leaf Whirlwind kick is more impressive since Kimimaro's bones are as dense as steel. This also goes to show Lee can still strike hard even if physically out of shape.

No Caption Provided

Now to step things up a notch... When Lee was still getting adjusted to his true speed without his weights, Lee's striking power was augmented to the point of being able to punch through Gaara's shield of sand due to sheer speed backing his strength.

For comparison, Lee with weights was unable to penetrate Gaara's sand through pure blunt force beforehand.

No Caption Provided

This is impressive because Gaara's sand was able to block a barrage of a thousand needles capable of piercing 5 mm of tempered steel.

Not to mention, the shield of sand was durable enough to shield Gaara from a huge explosion when Gaara was a child.

Since Lee w/o weights was basically penetrating a defense sturdier than steel through striking power, I see Lee's overall striking power taxing Infernape even without the Eight Gates.

But I'm not done yet.

Through opening the First Gate, Lee w/o weights can use 100% of his full physical potential to launch Infernape with a series of powerful kicks and proceed to wrap the Pokémon with his bandages as part of the Front Lotus technique.

Once fully trapped, Lee subsequently dive bombs his opponent with such high speed and strength, the Front Lotus visibly leaves a crater in the ground.

Lee's striking power gets even more ridiculous with the Third-Fifth Gates which successively boost Lee's physical prowess beyond 100% of his full potential and allow Lee to utilize his absolute trump card: the Reverse Lotus technique.

In the Fourth Gate, Lee w/o weights visibly shatters the arena ground as a side effect of running and produces high shock waves as a result of continuously knocking Gaara midair like a ping pong ball while blitzing him at speeds massively above sound.

And in the Fifth Gate, Lee w/o weights' Reverse Lotus technique pushes Lee's strength and speed to it's absolute limits as he rapidly pummels with such high force, he indirectly destroys the entire arena even when his muscles are torn apart.

Through this ace in the hole, Lee has additional means of cutting loose to overwhelm Infernape.

Durability/Endurance:

1. Tanks multiple attacks from Lucario's bone Rush attack which is extremely powerful without the type advantage over Chimchar and yet Chimchar seems to be fine overall. The same attacked easily shattered steel claws that were of impressive size.

2. Hit by high speed jagged rocks and survived without being koed.

Impressive, but I've already shown Lee punching through and enduring physical blows from sand tougher than rock, tempered steel, and huge explosions.

Plus, I should emphasis that Lee's usage of the Eight Gates are a durability and endurance feat in its own right.

For instance, Lee was able to physically withstand his muscles getting torn apart and still proceed to strike hard during usage of the Fourth and Fifth Gate.

No Caption Provided

Ultimately, Lee was still able to physically stand up while unconscious through sheer willpower even after having his muscle fibers torn apart from the higher Gates and subsequently getting his arm and leg completely crushed from Gaara's Sand Binding Coffin technique.

No Caption Provided

These showings can also correlate to Lee enduring Infernape's more potent fire abilities in the event of the shinobi getting hit/affected by the heat.

And Lee can still resort to an additional trump card of the Drunken Fist to still be a potent threat even if he becomes physically out of shape in the course of this battle.

Speed:

1. Showcases early FTE Speed against a pokemon capable of running on walls with pure speed and catches it off guard. The same pokemon is capable of moving like a blur when the attack was literally inches from its face.

Not bad, but since I've already shown Rock Lee outpacing FTE combatants, this pre-evolved feat isn't necessarily enough to keep up against Lee with weights.

The speed issue is exacerbated when taking into account the Eight Gates and/or Lee's true speed without weights.

Mach Punch : A empowered punch that gives Infernape a burst or prolonged form of speed.

Context : This is Infernape in his second form prior to the one in this debate,After evolving for the first time and just learning the technique.

1. Effortlessly causes his fist to form after images.

2. Speed blitzed a decently fast Pokemon who was previously superior in stats and power.

2. Mach punch causes multiple after Images to hit multiple people. ( This is while Monferno was weakened from a previous lost battle)

While a potentially troublesome technique against a slower Lee with weights, the main drawback of Mach Punch is how the speed is tied to the technique rather than Infernape's natural combat speed.

So a suppressed Lee could still work around the Mach Punch by telegraphing Infernape's movements and/or attacking before the technique is fully executed with his own speed/skill.

For example, Lee with weights was able to physically overwhelm the shinobi Dosu Kinuta by opening the First Gate and using the Front Lotus technique in spite of Dosu and his teammates having troublesome sound based techniques which could travel at supersonic speeds.

Note that after using the First Gate, Dosu was unable to even perceive Lee with weights's movement and was incapable of fully defending himself when caught off guard in Lee's spinning piledriver.

And now that I've scratched the surface of Lee's speed, I'll showcase Lee's true speed without his weights.

Without the weights, Rock Lee was able to completely outpace Gaara's sand which is automatic and reacts without Gaara's command. Notably, Lee was canonically the first person to ever bypass Gaara's involuntary defenses and land a hit on the sand shinobi.

Just so you know, Gaara's sand was already swift enough to shield Gaara from a huge point blank explosion after it detonated when Gaara was a child.

To roughly quantify the detonation with this table, the known speeds of detonation velocities range from potentially 2,700 m/s (Mach 8) to potentially 10,100 m/s (Mach 29). Anyway you slice it, the reaction speed of Gaara's sand and Lee w/o weights's combat speed are broadly hypersonic, respectively.

As it stands, when Lee truly decides to cut loose, his true speed without weights will be more troublesome for Infernape to deal with. And it gets even worse with the Eight Gates and Drunken Fist on standby to further skyrocket Lee's physical prowess.

Overview:

While I see the fight starting off relatively close with Rock Lee warming up in a suppressed state, Lee's key to victory is assured due to the variety of his "ace in the holes" including the removal of weights, the Eight Gates, and Drunken Fist which Lee would eventually resort to using once Infernape pressures the suppressed Lee since the shinobi is determined to win.

The aforementioned options would tremendously boost Lee's physical capabilities to insane levels and aide Lee in overwhelming the Pokémon by circumventing Infernape's advantages in durability and initial striking power.

Lee's endurance and vial of sake will additionally help Lee stay in the game against Infernape in spite of the double-edged qualities of Lee's Eight Gates ability.

When additionally backed by an advantage in cqc due to Lee's established mastery of taijutsu techniques, I see Lee ultimately prevailing against the Pokémon.

Your move! :)
Your move! :)

@stormshadow_x

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@gothamciti: Wow did not notice this, I'll start my post soon lol, Sorry about that.

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@stormshadow_x said:

@gothamciti: Wow did not notice this, I'll start my post soon lol, Sorry about that.

No problem, tags sometimes don't work for me either lol

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#26  Edited By GothamCiti