CaV: Rock Lee(GearSecond659) vs Killua(Streak619) VOTING CLOSED.

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Streak619

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#1  Edited By Streak619

Rock Lee:

Repped by GearSecond659
Repped by GearSecond659

Versus

Killua Zoldyck:

Repped by yours truly.
Repped by yours truly.

Conditions and stipulations

  • In character, but very serious.
  • Standard gear.
  • No prep time or knowledge for either of the combatants.
  • Killua is manga anime composite.
  • Rock Lee is pre time skip composite. (Including 1st gate and drunken Rock Lee)
  • Peak mental and physical condition.
  • Win by death only, no BFR or incapacitation will be counted.
  • Location: Meruem's palace:
Combatants start fifteen meters away from each other.
Combatants start fifteen meters away from each other.

Note:

  • This is a CaV, desist from posting your opinion on the outcome of the battle or posting comments/engaging in conversations that will derail the topic of this thread.
  • If you wish to be tagged for voting, then comment as such.
  • While voting, do not vote with your opinion on the battle as a basis for the vote, but vote for who you think convinced you of their stance.
  • Votes without a valid reason/justification will not be considered, this is to avoid biased or unfounded vote.

Asides from that, we hope you enjoy the debate. :)

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@gearsecond659:

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@streak619: Btw, the rules are from your All Might vs Meruem CaV

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@streak619: Can you add 1st gate in there as well just so there is no confusion

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ROCK LEE

No Caption Provided

THEME

Loading Video...

BACKGROUND

Rock Lee (ロック・リー, Rokku Rī) is a shinobi of Konohagakure's Lee clan and a member of Team Guy. Unlike most shinobi, he lacked the skills necessary to use ninjutsu or genjutsu. However, he overcomes those shortcomings by undergoing special training from Might Guy that would make him a taijutsu master while still a genin.

STRENGTH

In regards to raw physical strength, I would have to give Killua the slight edge, however not by much. In fact, I'd even argue that Rock Lee is superior in terms of his application of that strength in combat.

With a single kick each, Rock Lee was able to send Sasuke and Naruto a great distance backward.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Scan 1: Rock Lee kicks Naruto

Scan 2: Rock Lee kicks Sasuke

Rock Lee is strong enough to punch into the ground and lift a massive root. This would require Rock Lee to punch through several layers before finally reaching the root. Not to mention, considering the size of the root in comparison to Lee and the fact that he lifted it with one arm makes this equally impressive.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Moreover, Rock Lee's special attack: Secondary Lotus did this to the arena Lee and Gaara were fighting in...

No Caption Provided

With the First Gate, Rock Lee is strong enough to break through Kimimaro's bones, which are harder than dense as steel.

No Caption Provided

Unfortunately for my opponent, Killua doesn't possess striking strength feats of this calibre so while Killua may be stronger than Lee, he hasn't applied this strength to its full potential in combat, while Rock Lee has, giving him the striking strength advantage.

SPEED

Rock Lee's biggest advantage in this fight is his speed.

Rock Lee is easily hypersonic without his weights on. He can move a great distance at FTE speeds, evident when he went from the top of a statue to behind Gaara without him even noticing.

No Caption Provided

Rock Lee was then able to move at FTE speeds again and get past Gaara's sand defense.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Here's Rock Lee literally running circles around Gaara at FTE speeds.

No Caption Provided

And that's just weights off Lee. Since this is composite Rock Lee, that means that Drunken Rock Lee feats are valid, and Drunken Rock Lee is significantly faster than base Lee, evident by Kimimaro even saying that he was faster than before in his drunken state.

No Caption Provided

Drunken Rock Lee's reaction time is also very impressive as well, casually dodging attacks at blur speeds, even producing after images.

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With Drunken Rock Lee's speed feats, I would put Rock Lee at hypersonic + in terms of combat speed, which is a tier above what Killua is capable of doing with his combat speed.

DURABILITY

While I don't see Rock Lee being tagged by Killua that often due to Drunken Rock Lee's feats (as I will get into in my closer), I will concede that Rock Lee will be tagged maybe once or twice like he was in his fight with Kimimaro. Well, luckily, Rock Lee isn't too shabby when it comes to his durability feats.

Rock Lee is durable enough to tank being hit by Gaara's sand. Notice how this attack was able to crush the thick stone wall behind Lee, and keep in mind, Gaara's sand is stronger than steel.

No Caption Provided

Note, Rock Lee only looks hurt because of the strain Front Lotus placed on him, but in reality, Rock Lee tanked this attack like a champ.

CONCLUSION

Overall, Rock Lee would come out the winner of this fight due to his superior physicals. Rock Lee, while not possessing as much raw strength as Killua, is better with his application of his strength, resulting in Lee having better striking feats. Rock Lee is also undeniably faster than Killua, especially with Drunken Lee feats. And even if Lee, does get tagged, which is unlikely given Rock Lee's speed and unpredictable fighting style, a fighting style which Killua has no real answer for, Rock Lee will still have the durability needed to tanK Killua's attacks. Lastly, Rock Lee is a better hand to hand combatant than Killua, which I will go into with my next post.

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#14  Edited By Streak619

Killua Zoldyck

Words don't have the power to hurt you, unless the one who said it means a lot to you.
Words don't have the power to hurt you, unless the one who said it means a lot to you.

Background theme

Loading Video...

Character Background

Killua Zoldyck is the son of Silva Zoldyck. Heir and currently part of the Zoldyck family, a family of assassins, world notorius, feared and legendary. It is said that just a picture of a Zoldyck is worth millions of Yen.

Killua however is a rebel. The kid doesn't want his life planned out, neither does he want to inherit the family bussiness. He ran way from his family after stabbing his mum in the face and later left the house again with Gon on a journey to help him find his dad and his own purpose in life.

And he discovered it too. He decided the purpose of his life would be to protect his schizophreniac younger brother who has a fearsome entity within him, that could grant any wish(atleast is suggested to be able to) and is referred as 'something' (very creative).

Anddd Togashi hasn't mentioned head or tail of Killua in the last 50 chapters sooo, yeah let's just end it there I guess.

Abilities and techniques.

Assassin techniques:

  • Claws: One of the several assassination arts passed down to Killua through his family consists in adjusting the anatomy of his hand; his fingernails turn into claws that are sharper than knives.
  • Assassin Mode: Killua can enter a state of heightened concentration in which he focuses fully on killing the enemy, preventing himself from hesitating. According to him, there is a sensible difference between his power in this state and with his normal mindset.
  • The Snake Awakens: Killua whips his arms with incredible fluidity and speed, cleaving anything that comes in contact with them.
  • Rhythm Echo: An assassination art, the Rhythm Echo is a motion that creates an afterimage of the body through a varying cadence of steps. There is a total absence of noise during the movement, and multiple phantoms appear. It utilizes the Shadow Step technique; In the Nippon Animation adaptation of the anime, Rhythm Echo is changed into an ability that allows Killua to disappear into darkness.

General nen techniques:

  • Nen: It is a technique that allows a living being to use and manipulate their own life energy (known as aura).
  • Ten: The user brings out his life energy to cloak himself as protection from external force, and other aura.
  • Ren: This is basically the DBZ power up thing, except here there is no power boost and it is practically of no use in a battle
  • Ken: A superior version of Ten.
  • Ko: The user concentrates all his aura in a single part of his body, to increase it's durability and DC.
  • In: The technique with which you make your life energy invisible to the normal eye.
  • Gyo: The technique with which you can see invisible life energy, by concentrating your life energy in your eyes.
  • En: The technique, where one expands their life energy outwards in a dome shape, one knows the position and velocity of everything inside, it is basically SONAR.
  • Ryu: This technique is basically when the user is constantly changing how much aura any part of his body has in order to increase it's durability and DC, for striking and parrying.
  • Zetsu: Allows user to hide his aura, and conceal themselves completely.
  • Shu: Can amp any object, that they're directly in contact with, with their life energy such that the object's durability and DC become vastly superior.

Hatsu nen techniques.

  • Thunder Palm: The first ability Killua named, as well as the most basic one in his arsenal, consists in him electrocuting his opponent by touching them with both palms and pushing them back.
  • Thunderbolt: Killua leaps into the air above the opponent and projects a bolt of lightning from his fingers, paralyzing them for a few moments and causing them pain.
  • Whirlwind: This is one of the core abilities of Godspeed that has Killua react automatically to external stimuli. Instead of the normal process of the stimulus being perceived by the nerves, which transmit a signal to the brain which in turn sends an instruction to the muscles, Killua programs his aura to send an electric signal to his muscles so as to instantly react to a treat, bypassing the comparatively slow nervous system. This requires prep, cannot be spammed, and can only occur at point blank distances.
  • Speed of Lightning: The second application of Godspeed allows Killua to retain conscious control of his movements. His running speed and jumping ability increase dramatically, hence why he uses it primarily to cover long distances in a very short amount of time.

Physical stats.

I did my best to be concise and precise here. Posting only relevant feats and arguments, that being said let's dive right into the main course;

Strength

I won't be expanding much into this attribute, since it is a non factor in my argument. I will however address Gear's arguments:

In regards to raw physical strength, I would have to give Killua the slight edge, however not by much. In fact, I'd even argue that Rock Lee is superior in terms of his application of that strength in combat.

The conversation was over the moment you conceded the strength advantage. The second half isn't even related to strength. Application of strength is a matter of skill. You're confusing it with the attribute itself. Which is fallacious.

Unfortunately for my opponent, Killua doesn't possess striking strength feats of this calibre so while Killua may be stronger than Lee, he hasn't applied this strength to its full potential in combat, while Rock Lee has, giving him the striking strength advantage.

Firstly, Your argument shifted from "Lee applies his strength better than Killua" to "Lee strikes harder than Killua" in a matter of a few paragraphs. They're two different things, just in case you think otherwise.

I'm not even sure what or how to counter whatever you're trying to say. I will move with assumption that you're asserting Lee strikes harder than Killua, but lifts lesser than Killua. Which makes the most sense to me after reading all the feats you posted.

Which of course I will be debunking so pay close attention.

Let's begin:

With a single kick each, Rock Lee was able to send Sasuke and Naruto a great distance backward.

If, by great distance, you mean a few meters, then yes I agree with you:

No Caption Provided

Sasuke was sent flying a great distance too:

No Caption Provided

Massive distances indeed.

You're wanking.

Now to bring a feat that casually shits on every striking feat provided by you:

No Caption Provided

Gon sends a man many times his own weight, massively heavier than Sasuke or Naruto, flying what is actually a great distance and crashing past a concrete wall.

Clearly based on the differences of the weights of that man and Naruto and Sasuke, the differences in the distance and the differences in the striking, Lee used a tae-kwon-do type of strike where you utilise momentum and torque whereas Gon literally just stuck his hand out, one can see that this feat is greater than the striking feats provided by Gear.

Now before you get your knickers in a twist and say Gon=/= Killua. Lemme remind you, in the arc of this feat^^, Killua was much stronger than Gon.

Why? Well because Killua was able to push through 16 tons and Gon was able to push through only 4 tons. Meaning Killua was 4 times as strong as Gon was when this Gon performed this feat^^.

So Killua>>Gon>Rock Lee in terms striking strength.

Time to debunk some more:

With the First Gate, Rock Lee is strong enough to break through Kimimaro's bones, which are harder than dense as steel.

Now, he didn't crack it:

No Caption Provided

Now just in case you think the cracks highlighted with red are because of Lee, you're wrong. Those cracks are rhere on almost all his bones as highlighted by green. Clearly those are an inherent feature of the bones and not because of Lee.

Moreover, Rock Lee's special attack: Secondary Lotus did this to the arena Lee and Gaara were fighting in...

That wasn't pure strength feat. You can't draw conclusions or inferences from that.

Conclusion: Even early on in the series, Killua is strong enough to overwhelm Lee. Later in the chimera arc where he gets becomes 4 times stronger(16 tons to 64 tons), he will literally toy with Lee in terms of stength.

Speed

Rock Lee is easily hypersonic without his weights on.

Bold. Yet nothing among all the speed feats provided suggest that Rock Lee reaches easy hypersonic. Literally all you did was provide 3 FTE feats and then jumped to the conclusion that Lee is easy hypersonic. I'm not even gonna bother going into all of them.

Instead, I'll focus on Killua's speed.

In the Yorknew arc, Killua moved low supersonic.

No Caption Provided

human fps rate : 60 (lowball)

length of the room : 10 meters approx (scaling from phinks's hieght.)

in order to be invisible while moving across the room, he would have to do it before the human eye can take a single frame, ie in 1/60 seconds

speed = d/t

= 10/ 1/60

=600

= mach(600/340)

= mach(1.7)

which is supersonic

Now I don't expect you to argue against this, since you've used this feat and calc yourself.

Moving on:

No Caption Provided

Killua lol blitzes and rips this dude's head off.

Context: This dude, Rammot, was the same guy who was pretty much blitzed Killua prior to Killua's speed boost:

No Caption Provided

Note that even the version that got blitzed was much faster than the Yorknew version that was mach1.7

So clearly, Killua after his final speed boost is high supersonic and is near the boundary of hypersonic.

And finally let's get to the steak:

Godspeed: Speed of lightning

Rightt, now this is a state of Killua where he infuses actual eletricity with his aura, and then transumutes his aura into eletricity along with the eletricity that he stored with him.

If you haven't figured already, this gives him a massive speed boost. A speed boost that allowed him to blitz and troll Youpi:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

Youpi scales to a reaally casual bullet timer. Killua was blitzing him with a fraction of his full speed. Considering Killua was close to hypersonic. This boost would put him at low hypersonic.

Anyways coming to his second ability:

Godspeed: Whirlwind

Basically, his reaction time becomes zero.

What did you say? Too OP?

Well it isn't really. For starters, he can't spam this continuosly. He can use it a couple of times in a row maybe. But he has never shown to be able to continuosly use it without a break. I'm assuming it is because he can't. Maybe because the ability is built that way. Or it consumes too much stamina. Idk.

Now for the actual mechanism. What he does is program his aura to send an electrical pulse straight the muscles of his body, causing his body to move in a particular way of his desire, whenever a certain criteria is fulfilled.

Now I'll give an example:

Criteria: someone tries to punch him.

Pre-programmed movement: block.

So in this case, Killua programs his aura to send electrical impulses to the muscles of his hand so that his hand will block an incoming punch, if and when it comes.

So it's like:

1) incoming punch to Killua.

2) Aura senses punch(because the aura is covering the near area around his body)

3)The moment his aura senses the punch. It sends a lightning fast message to his arm to block incoming punch.

4) hand moves at hypersonic velocities to block punch.

Processing speed = 0

Electrical impulse speed = MHS (since his aura consists of actual eletricity.)

Overall reaction speed = negligible = nigh instantaneous.

Basically ultra instinct of HxH.

So concluding on this section I eould like to say: Killua with Godspeed is a few pegs above base and most likely drunken fist Lee. And massively above in terms of reaction speed. As for gates. He would be able to react to it with the help of Whirlwind, but being (most likely) slower, Lee will be able to react to him as well. However I'll get into why this isn't a problem later.

Durability:

Alright, let's start by addressing your arguments:

Rock Lee is durable enough to tank being hit by Gaara's sand. Notice how this attack was able to crush the thick stone wall behind Lee, and keep in mind, Gaara's sand is stronger than steel.

Impressive.

Note, Rock Lee only looks hurt because of the strain Front Lotus placed on him, but in reality, Rock Lee tanked this attack like a champ.

He clearly took damage from it:

No Caption Provided

Killua has much better blunt durability.

Ten:

This technique re-enforces your durability by a significant degree.

No Caption Provided

Ten allowed a kid like that to no sell all of Killua's 16 tonner strikes. This means that even Zushi will no sell Lee's strikes. Because he no sold Killua's strikes.

And Killua's ten is even superior to that of Zushi's since possesses more aura.

Moving on:

Killua can also use Ken, which is an amped version of Ten. Ken gives a massive boost to Ten.

With ken he was able to no sell Palm's strikes:

No Caption Provided

Lastly, Killua can use Ko, which is an amped up version of ken and is stated to be ten times greater.

No Caption Provided

As for some feats for Ko

Check out this video

@16:10: Gon states that Razors volleys would have killed Killua.

@21:22: Gon's volleys are confirmed to be as strong as Razor's.

Ko allowed the user to almost no sell something that would ordinarily shred a person's head.

Clearly Ko is something that would allow Killua to completely no sell Lee's strikes because Lee is nowhere near strong enough to shred Killua's head.

It should be painfully clear how much more durable Killua is.

Pain Tolerance

The guy tanked a million volts of eletricity and was still seemingly in peak mental and physical condition.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Yeah he trained, but the mental fortitude required to actually and genuinely smile while being inflicted with a million volts of eletricity is inhuman and suggests even in the most painful of situation, he can most likely maintain his capability.

Not convinced? Was tortured for hours, yet he is as jolly as ever:

No Caption Provided

He even had his palm burnt and horribly swollen but no biggie

No Caption Provided

Was able to continue without any decrease in efficiency.

Safe to say that no matter what he susstains he will fight as humanly best as possible.

PC

Right this is gonna be the gonna be the cornerstone.

Killua has some serious PC, he can manip hks hands into claw which he stated were sharper than knives:

No Caption Provided

How much sharper? Well..

No Caption Provided

Cleanly slices peak humans like butter.

As if that wasn't enough to drive the point home, here he slices a chimera ant, who is far more durable than humans:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

NOTE: All of this is without Ko. With Ko, his PC becomes ten times greater as proven before. Can Rock Lee tank anywhere near that much PC?

hint: he can't.

Lastly, and most impressively, here's the PC due to his eletricity:

No Caption Provided

Literally shredded Pouf, someone massively more durable than Lee, through his eyes and arm. Pouf is a royal guard with a gigantic amount of aura and hence his ken must be very potent. So sgredding through pouf is a feat worth respecting.

Ehat do you think would happen if he combined the PC of his eletricty and his inherent claws?

You get electric claws that would impale and slice and dice Rock Lee.

Conclusion: Lee having zero notable piercing durability will get shredded by the likes Killua when he gets serious

Expanding on important techniques

Thunderbolt:

Basically Killua launches nen lightning projectiles, that are paralysing:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

As you can clearly see the victim was frozen in place and was unable to deal with Gon's strike that followed.

Here is a more clear and explicit instance:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

The last scan is explicit.

I would like to point that it is perfectly in character for Killua to use this. He used it twice, once at the beginning of the fight(second set of scans) and mid battle too(1st set of scans.).

Rythm Echo:

Allows user to create afterimages by moving in a set rhythm.

No Caption Provided

And believe me they're quite convincing, they fooled a chimera ant, which has enhanced senses:

No Caption Provided

This ability is also an in character move here.

Analysis and strategy

Analysis:

It is very in character for Killua to start off with his ne abilities, half of his fights after he made the techniques start that way. It is in character for Lee to not open gates unless it is to protect someone or in the gravest scenario. It is a matter of principle that Lee holds important.

So you essentially haveGodspeed Killua vs Rock Lee with drunken fist feats for most of the fight.

Scenarios/strategies:

Scenario 1:

THUNDERBOLT.

Nuff said.

As I proved, it is very in character for Killua to use Thunderbolt right off the bat.

I also showed that it is a paralysing attack.

And best of all; Lee can't see it. That's right. Nen is invisible to non nen users. Lee happens to be a non nen user. So when Killua uses thunderbolt, he'll just be like "why the heck this kidding pointing at me?" And before he finishes that thought- BOOM or should I say CACKLE, he gets hit by lightning and is paralysed for 5-10 seconds.

Followed by Killua ripping out his heart, or slicing him to pieces or literally anything because, if Rock Lee can't move then then EVEN I can kill him, if I had claws sharper than a knife.

Safe to say Killua can too, very easily at that.

Scenario 2:

Killua for some out of character reason decides not to go through the Thunderbolt route, but decides to go with h2h combat.

Even then he gets sliced and diced. A couple reasons for that:

  • Superior combat speed: Yes, Lee is fast in base, but by negligible amount if any. Because base Killua approaches hypersonic himself. With a massive boost such as Godspeed, he easily outmaneuvers base and drunken Lee.
  • Massivelt superior reaction speed: Yeah I know I said he can't spam it. But he doesn't need to. A few seconds is enough. He uses whirlwind to react and slice off Lee's incoming strike. End of story and battle.
  • Durability: Killua has more than enough blunt durability with ken to tank all of Lee's attacks with negligible damage. Since he no sold being slammed through concrete and Lee's strikes do not regularly pack that much force. All of this is ignoring KO. Which makes hsi durability 10 times greater than Ken, which allowed him to no sell being slammed through concrete.
  • Killua's PC: Lee has no answers to Killua's insane piercing capability because he has no worth while piercing durability and zero electric durability feats. Killua will just slice and dice with his claws. Or slice and dice with eletricity or slice and dice him with both. Point is he can't survive being pierced or sliced for that matter. Again, all of this is without ko which would multiply PC by ten times.
  • Lightning Palm: Another paralysing attack, exceot this time he needs to push with his palms. Still Lee will get paralysed.
  • Rythm Echo: This just a mean ass technique, causing illusions that eve creatures with enhanced senses cannot distinguish. Killua can toy around with Lee with this technique alone.

Conclusion

There are only two possible scenarios:

  • Long range/mid range combat.
  • H2h combat

Both of which you get anhilated in and die abruptly before you get the chance ro use gates.

Other than skill, Killua has Lee beat in literally everything.

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t4v

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@streak619: Cool. Should have my mine up by next weeks end at the latest.

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#18  Edited By Streak619

@gearsecond659: Ok I just realized my post had a flaw, I'm not able to edit it. So:

If you intend to counter this from the dueability section regarding ko:

Check out this video

@16:10: Gon states that Razors volleys would have killed Killua.

@21:22: Gon's volleys are confirmed to be as strong as Razor's.

Can you address this in its place:

Check out this video

@16:10: Gon states that Razors volleys would have killed Killua.

@8:03: Gon tanks the sane attack using Ko and ends up with a small cut.

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REBUTTAL #1

No Caption Provided

COUNTERS

STRENGTH

The conversation was over the moment you conceded the strength advantage.

I conceded to Killua having the strength advantage in terms of raw power, but not in his application of his strength in a combat setting. There is a difference between raw strength and striking strength as the former can be used in regards to lifting strength, but the ladder is obviously only used in regards to striking strength.

Application of strength is a matter of skill. You're confusing it with the attribute itself. Which is fallacious.

The application of one's strength isn't just related to skill. It is also related to striking strength as you are applying your physical prowess in a combative setting.

Firstly, Your argument shifted from "Lee applies his strength better than Killua" to "Lee strikes harder than Killua"

The two are one in the same.

If, by great distance, you mean a few meters, then yes I agree with you:

Keep in mind, this was with a casual kick and notice how Naruto was sent SPIRALING backward.

Lee used a tae-kwon-do type of strike where you utilise momentum and torque

Except there was no momentum because Naruto was trying to kick Rock Lee while doing a handstand and Rock Lee just spun around and kicked him away.

Massive distances indeed.

You're wanking.

With the Sasuke feat, notice how Sasuke had blocked the kick from Rock Lee, and yet he was still sen flying backward. In addition, like the kick before, this was a casual kick.

Now just in case you think the cracks highlighted with red are because of Lee, you're wrong. Those cracks are rhere on almost all his bones as highlighted by green. Clearly those are an inherent feature of the bones and not because of Lee.

Touche. However, the simple fact that he was able to strike the bones without any injury is impressive within itself.

But that's not the full extent of Rock Lee's striking strength. Rock Lee was able to stagger Kimimaro in Curse Mark 2, the same person who can no sell the pressure of being sunken 200 meters down with sand.

No Caption Provided

Killua has no striking strength feats on this level, as I will prove below.

Why? Well because Killua was able to push through 16 tons and Gon was able to push through only 4 tons. Meaning Killua was 4 times as strong as Gon was when this Gon performed this feat^^.

So Killua>>Gon>Rock Lee in terms striking strength.

First of all, lifting strength doesn't necessarily equate to striking strength. Your attempt at power scaling through lifting strength is fallacious because Killua has never actually displayed strength on this level when it comes to striking strength. Again, while Killua may have better lifting strength, he has never applied this strength in combat to the point that it can be converted into striking strength.

ven early on in the series, Killua is strong enough to overwhelm Lee. Later in the chimera arc where he gets becomes 4 times stronger(16 tons to 64 tons), he will literally toy with Lee in terms of stength.

Again lifting strength doesn't equal striking strength, and Killua hasn't shown feats on this level. You are to heavily relying on power scaling.

SPEED

Bold. Yet nothing among all the speed feats provided suggest that Rock Lee reaches easy hypersonic. Literally all you did was provide 3 FTE feats and then jumped to the conclusion that Lee is easy hypersonic. I'm not even gonna bother going into all of them.

This is a lowball. Pay attention to the first speed feat I showed you. Rock Lee moving at FTE speeds from a VERY LONG DISTANCE (from atop a large statue to behind Gaara) and outspeeding Gaara's sand, which can react to explosions. Note, in the link presented, it is Shippuden Gaara, and while Gaara has gotten stronger, the conscious sand that automatically protects him remains the same in terms of power level.

Context: This dude, Rammot, was the same guy who was pretty much blitzed Killua prior to Killua's speed boost:

Just because Rammot tagged Killua doesn't mean he blitzed Killua lol.

So clearly, Killua after his final speed boost is high supersonic and is near the boundary of hypersonic.

Clearly he isn't as proven above.

Youpi scales to a reaally casual bullet timer. Killua was blitzing him with a fraction of his full speed. Considering Killua was close to hypersonic. This boost would put him at low hypersonic.

Where did you get that from?

Killua with Godspeed is a few pegs above base and most likely drunken fist Lee.

Not really. I have already debunked the scaling to Rammot and the fact that Killua was using a fraction of his full speed against Youpi. Thus your scaling doesn't apply here. Also, I would argue that Drunken Rock Lee has a similar reaction speed to Killua in Godspeed. He was casually reacting to attacks from Kimimaro, who can overpower base Lee, who is hypersonic. Kimimaro can even create afterimages with his strikes, and Rock Lee was casually dodging them in his SLEEP. Literally, in his sleep. While Killua may have a better reaction speed than Drunken Rock Lee in Godspeed, it is by such a small margin that it won't be too problematic for Rock Lee. And unlike Killua, Rock Lee has no time limit with his Drunken Lee form and always maintains his reaction speed throughout the whole fight.

DURABILITY/PAIN TOLERANCE

Ten allowed a kid like that to no sell all of Killua's 16 tonner strikes. This means that even Zushi will no sell Lee's strikes. Because he no sold Killua's strikes.

Again, Killua has no real striking strength feats to make blocking his strikes impressive. Lifting strength doesn't equate to striking strength.

With ken he was able to no sell Palm's strikes:

He did not no sell Palm's attacks. He clearly took damage from them. Also, striking strength feats for Palm?

Ko allowed the user to almost no sell something that would ordinarily shred a person's head.

Clearly Ko is something that would allow Killua to completely no sell Lee's strikes because Lee is nowhere near strong enough to shred Killua's head.

If Killua was capable of using as strong a version of Ko as you say, he would have used it when Razor threw the ball at him rather than attempt to dodge it. There is no evidence that you can scale Gon's use of Ko to Killua's.

In addition, you have to be able to predict where your opponent will strike in order to use Ko. However, with Drunken Rock Lee's unpredictable fighting style and with Killua lacking knowledge in Taijutsu techniques, Killua would be hard pressed to predict where Rock Lee will tag him.

The guy tanked a million volts of eletricity and was still seemingly in peak mental and physical condition.

This doesn't translate to blunt force pain tolerance. Moreover, pain tolerance doesn't mean crap when your body physically can't take blows from the opponent. So while he does have good mental fortitude, this will only carry him so far.

Not convinced? Was tortured for hours, yet he is as jolly as ever:

If you want to talk about true mental fortitude, Rock Lee curbstomps Killua. Even after having his muscles torn, his arm and leg crushed, Rock Lee was still able to stand through pure will power.

No Caption Provided

Was able to continue without any decrease in efficiency.

Touche, but as said before, Killua's body can only take so much before it gives out, evident during his fight with Shoot, and as such, his mental fortitude will only do so much. On that note, in terms of pure willpower, Rock Lee stomps Killua as he has taken way more punishment and was able to get up just the same.

PC

All of this is without Ko. With Ko, his PC becomes ten times greater as proven before. Can Rock Lee tank anywhere near that much PC?

It has never been stated that Ko increases PC. It has only ever been applied to increase blunt force attacks.

Literally shredded Pouf, someone massively more durable than Lee, through his eyes and arm

Durability feats for Pouf?

Pouf is a royal guard with a gigantic amount of aura and hence his ken must be very potent. So sgredding through pouf is a feat worth respecting.

There is no evidence that Pouf had his Ken up during this time. It is not like it is an automatic thing. At this point, Pouf was being arrogant and reckless, so you can't assume he is using Ken.

You get electric claws that would impale and slice and dice Rock Lee.

He has never used this in combat before, so you can't just make up a move for Killua to use.

Lee having zero notable piercing durability will get shredded by the likes Killua when he gets serious

Since this is in character you have to take into account that Killua has never used his claws mid combat before. He has used it in hostage situations and he has used it to blitz people (which he can't do in this fight), but he has never actually used it mid combat against someone of Rock Lee's tier.

As for lightning, while I don't think this will be a factor in this fight, as I will bring up later in my post, I will provide feats for Rock Lee's piercing durability. He has gotten impaled and tagged bY Kimimaro's denser than steel bones.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

CONCLUSION

SCENARIO 1

THUNDERBOLT

Trust me when I say that Rock Lee will make this a close combat fight. He has been able to close the distance between him and Gaara with his combat speed and he will do the same with Killua. Also, an in character Killua usually fights close combat fights. The only reason he used Thunderbolt in this scenario was to , support Gon, and B, support Knuckle. The Thunderbolt is used as a means to support others, which doesn't apply to this fight. For Killua's whole life, he has fought close combat fights, and even after he got Nen, he has fought h2h fights, so I don't see Killua using Thunderbolt.

Killua for some out of character reason decides not to go through the Thunderbolt route, but decides to go with h2h combat.

I've already provided an in character reason as to why Killua won't use the Thunderbolt.

SCENARIO 2

Superior combat speed: Yes, Lee is fast in base, but by negligible amount if any. Because base Killua approaches hypersonic himself. With a massive boost such as Godspeed, he easily outmaneuvers base and drunken Lee.

Given Drunken Rock Lee's hypersonic + speed and Rock Lee's base speed being superior to Killua's in addition to Godspeed's time limit, I honestly don't see this.

Massivelt superior reaction speed: Yeah I know I said he can't spam it. But he doesn't need to. A few seconds is enough. He uses whirlwind to react and slice off Lee's incoming strike. End of story and battle.

You are neglecting Drunken Rock Lee's reaction speed to dodge hypersonic + incoming attacks while unconcious. Godspeed is only hypersonic, so Rock Lee will definitely be able to react to Killua's attacks.

Durability: Killua has more than enough blunt durability with ken to tank all of Lee's attacks with negligible damage. Since he no sold being slammed through concrete and Lee's strikes do not regularly pack that much force. All of this is ignoring KO. Which makes hsi durability 10 times greater than Ken, which allowed him to no sell being slammed through concrete.

Wrong. Rock Lee staggering Curse Mark 2 Kimimaro is more impressive than anything Killua's durability has shown. And Killua won't be able to use Ko as he can't predict Drunken Rock Lee's attacks.

Killua's PC: Lee has no answers to Killua's insane piercing capability because he has no worth while piercing durability and zero electric durability feats. Killua will just slice and dice with his claws. Or slice and dice with eletricity or slice and dice him with both. Point is he can't survive being pierced or sliced for that matter. Again, all of this is without ko which would multiply PC by ten times.

Killua has never used his claws in mid combat before and won't have the opportunity to use his electricity given Rock Lee will make this a close combat fight.

Lightning Palm: Another paralysing attack, exceot this time he needs to push with his palms. Still Lee will get paralysed.

Drunken Rock Lee's reaction speed ensures that he will be able to dodge this.

Rythm Echo: This just a mean ass technique, causing illusions that eve creatures with enhanced senses cannot distinguish. Killua can toy around with Lee with this technique alone

The illusions disperse after one attack, so with Rock Lee's combat speed, this will be proven mute.

CONCLUSION

Overall, I see this fight being a close combat fight given this is in character. Under these conditions, Rock Lee's superior striking strength, speed, durability, reflexes, and martial art prowess will come out on top. Killua's durability is hard countered by Lee's unpredictability in combat and his striking strength. And while Godspeed is formidable, Drunken Rock Lee is comprable in reaction speed and Godspeed has a time limit. Thus, Rock Lee's superior physicals will ensure his victory.

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Counters: Physical stats.

Strength:

I conceded to Killua having the strength advantage in terms of raw power, but not in his application of his strength in a combat setting. There is a difference between raw strength and striking strength as the former can be used in regards to lifting strength, but the ladder is obviously only used in regards to striking strength.

Firstly, application of force by itself simply points to skill. It, by definition, has nothing to do with inherent, raw striking/lifting strength. So the first sentence doesn't belong in this section.

Secondly, striking strength is more independent of lifting strength

The application of one's strength isn't just related to skill.

It, by definition, refers to and defines only skill. Lee applies his strength better in battle because he is more skilled. Him being more skilled doesn't have any say over whether he is inherently stronger(raw striking or lifting). Those two seperate matters entirely.

It is also related to striking strength as you are applying your physical prowess in a combative setting.

He applies his strength better than Killua =/= striking harder than Killua. He can apply his strength as good as he wants but if Killua's raw striking strength is inherently much greater, then there would be an obvious winner in striking strength.

The two are one in the same.

Not even close. Lee applies his raw striking strength better than Killua applies his raw striking strength =/= Lee strikes harder than Killua. He just applies his inherent strength better, but if Killua's inherent strength happens to be massively superior to that of Lee's, then no amount of skill would be able to close the gap.

Sorta like how Spidey has better striking strength despite the fact that Batman has better skill.

Keep in mind, this was with a casual kick and notice how Naruto was sent SPIRALING backward.

He was sent rolling behind:

No Caption Provided

Clearly he was in contact with the ground the entire time.

Lee used a tae-kwon-do type of strike where you utilise momentum and torque

Except there was no momentum because Naruto was trying to kick Rock Lee while doing a handstand and Rock Lee just spun around and kicked him away.

Which is exactly what using angular momentum and torque to increase the force of your strikes mean, thank you for demonstrably proving my point.

Massive distances indeed.

You're wanking.

With the Sasuke feat, notice how Sasuke had blocked the kick from Rock Lee, and yet he was still sen flying backward. In addition, like the kick before, this was a casual kick.

Which still doesn't change the fact that you wanked a few meters to 'great distances'.

Touche. However, the simple fact that he was able to strike the bones without any injury is impressive within itself.

First of all, durability argument^.

Secondly, no it isn't. Not taking damage due to striking something hard isn't necessarily impressive. Especially the way Lee kicked Kimimaru. He kicked him with the sole of his shoe. I don't want to explain the physics of it to you, so I'll just use an analogy. If you were to kick an adamantium wall with sole of your shoes/foot, and take no real damage, would that be an impressive feat?

Rock Lee was able to stagger Kimimaro.

Objection. You're making 'stagger' sound like he did any real damage. He didn't. In fact, Kimimaru attacked him the very next instant.

No Caption Provided

And the later scan suggests he no sold the kick:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Chapter 216: A Spear And A Shield. page 9-10

Scan1: Lee kicks- sorry, Lee 'staggers' Kimimaru.

Scan2: Kimimaru shows no sign of damage whatsoever. So yes, Kimimaru no sold that kick.

First of all, lifting strength doesn't necessarily equate to striking strength. Your attempt at power scaling through lifting strength is fallacious because Killua has never actually displayed strength on this level when it comes to striking strength. Again, while Killua may have better lifting strength, he has never applied this strength in combat to the point that it can be converted into striking strength.

False, the notion that lifting and striking strength have nothing to do with each other isn't true for HxH. Due to a certain statement:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Now if you read all three scans thoroughly, one fact is pretty clear: Killua knew Gon would be ablle to send his opponent flying with one push after realising Gon is a 4 tonner.

Conclusion: Being a 4 tonner means you can send people flying with one push.

Inference: Since Killua is a 16 tonner, he should be able to casually surpass that feat with a fraction of his strength.

Conclusion: Killua in this arc, can strike harder than both Gon and Lee, casually. Later on, Killua pushes through 5th testing gate which Weighs 64 tons. At this point Gon's striking feat would be child's play. Beyond child's play. Lee being weaker than Gon, there is no contest.

Speed

Note, in the link presented, it is Shippuden Gaara, and while Gaara has gotten stronger, the conscious sand that automatically protects him remains the same in terms of power level.

Unsubstantiated argument. Also, Gaara's sand has far better feats in shippuden.

Just because Rammot tagged Killua doesn't mean he blitzed Killua lol.

He smashed Killua with a backhand before Killua could even react. Last I checked, that was the definition of a blitz.

Where did you get that from?

The fact that he he moved FTE to Youpi without any strain at all? The casualness was visible on his face.

Also, I would argue that Drunken Rock Lee has a similar reaction speed to Killua in Godspeed.

You do realise Killua has nigh instantaneous reaction speed? There is zero processing of info, his aura sends an electric spark to his arm, which moves MHS. Since his aura actually transmutes to eletricity but possesses eletricity as well.

Kimimaro can even create afterimages with his strikes.

After images are unquantifiable and undefined. Also Gon was able to create after images before he even underwent any training. After images are cute.

Rock Lee was casually dodging them in his SLEEP. Literally, in his sleep.

No, he wasn't. He was heavily drunk and his eyes were half closed, but that isn't the same thing as sleeping. Also he was playing asleep, to trick Kimimaru many a times So really can't say he was legit asleep.

While Killua may have a better reaction speed than Drunken Rock Lee in Godspeed, it is by such a small margin that it won't be too problematic for Rock Lee.

No way. Killua's reaction speed is nigh instantaneous. He caught the Ortho Sibling's darts using Whirlwind:

No Caption Provided

context:

The Ortho sibling's darts appear the moment they pierce you. Before that they are undetectable:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Scan 1: Killua is unable to react to getting pierced by it.

Scan 2: Killua states that until the moment the darts pierce you, they cannot be felt or detected. Meaning reacting to them when they pierce you requires nigh instantaneous reactions.

Scan 3: Confirms all of this.

Killua caught it the moment it the moment it materialised as he stated himself.

Neither drunk Lee nor Gates Lee can replaicate this. Probably no one in pre time skip can come even close to replicating this.

Conclusion: Killua in whirlwind will blitz and react to drunken Lee easily.

Durability

While I don't see Rock Lee being tagged by Killua that often due to Drunken Rock Lee's feats (as I will get into in my closer)

Why on Earth would you do that? Why would you bring up a new argument in your closer? You do realise you won't get a chance to rebute my counter? Which would definitely be super convenient for me?

He did not no sell Palm's attacks.

He got up unfazed and had tiny scratches after she striked him many times. He essentially no sold it.

Also, striking strength feats for Palm?

None. She was however using ko for every strike:

No Caption Provided

Ko is extremely potent as was pointed out in my opener.

If Killua was capable of using as strong a version of Ko as you say, he would have used it when Razor threw the ball at him rather than attempt to dodge it.

Firstly, how can you say Killua would have definitely used it? How do you know he simply forgot about it in the moment?

Also even if he did remember, he wouldn't use Ko there, why you ask? Because Killua was, up until the Chimera arc, a complete pussy who ran away from things stronger than him:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

BASICALLY: He was a real, closet pussy against anyone stronger or even equal to him and would never ever take up offense against such a thing or person.

Now, would such a kid willingly and intentionally go up against an attack that could pulverise his head?

And 10 points to the guy who said no!

Note, that this current Killua isn't like that tho.

In addition, you have to be able to predict where your opponent will strike in order to use Ko. However, with Drunken Rock Lee's unpredictable fighting style and with Killua lacking knowledge in Taijutsu techniques

Whirlwind and Kanmaru gg

Pain Tolerance

This doesn't translate to blunt force pain tolerance. Moreover, pain tolerance doesn't mean crap when your body physically can't take blows from the opponent. So while he does have good mental fortitude, this will only carry him so far.

Pain doesn't have those kinda classifications.

If you want to talk about true mental fortitude, Rock Lee curbstomps Killua. Even after having his muscles torn, his arm and leg crushed, Rock Lee was still able to stand through pure will power.

Impressive. But Killua has better feats and he was able to maintain peak mental condition and even genuinely smile undergoing excruciating pain. Pain means nothing.

PC

It has never been stated that Ko increases PC. It has only ever been applied to increase blunt force attacks.

Wrapping something in aura amps its PC as well as DC:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Here's another example:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Durability feats for Pouf?

Tanked tail strikes from Meruem:

No Caption Provided

Context:

Mereum's tail strikes are capable of making large and perfectly cylindrical craters in rock:

No Caption Provided

So shredding Pouf is an extremely great feat since Pouf is capable of tanking Mereum's PC.

There is no evidence that Pouf had his Ken up during this time. It is not like it is an automatic thing.

It doesn't need to be. Pouf wasn't using ken when he tanked Meruem pierce. So it still translates to a great feat.

At this point, Pouf was being arrogant and reckless, so you can't assume he is using Ken.

Pouf isn't arrogant or wreckless in nature. You're warping facts.

He has never used this in combat before, so you can't just make up a move for Killua to use.

Firstly, he has:

No Caption Provided

He used claws and lightning to strike and pierce through rhino's incredible tough exterior.

Secondly, I diagree with the notion that a character cannot be said to do a certain move when deapite the fact that all the conditions required for said character to use said move.

For Killua to use claws and eletricity there are a few conditions to be satisfied:

-Lightning must be an in character move: check.

-Claws must be an in character move: check.

-Killua must have the necessary intelligence to come up with the idea of fusing or using the two moves simultaneously: Double check, he thought of Kanmaru En; fusing both En and his lightning to slice Pouf. Something even we viewers never thought of.

So on what basis do you assert that Killua won't do something as elementarily simple as claws + lightning?

As for lightning, while I don't think this will be a factor in this fight, as I will bring up later in my post

Sigh, dig your grave I guess.

I will provide feats for Rock Lee's piercing durability. He has gotten impaled and tagged bY Kimimaro's denser than steel bones.

->Says he will provide feats for piercing durability.

->Shows Lee getting pierced.

No Caption Provided

I mean, a feat is an achievement or an accomplishment. Can you tell us exactly what Lee's piercing durability accomplished by getting Lee PIERCED.

Conclusion

Scenario 1: Thunderbolt gg

Trust me when I say that Rock Lee will make this a close combat fight.

I'm not asserting Lee won't try. But I gave plenty of examples of Killua ruthlessly spamming and even opening fights with a Thunderbolt. Lee can try all he wants but since he can't see nen, doesn't know about thunderbolt and isn't capable of tanking or not getting paralysed. Lee will die. He will get paralysed. Killua activates Godspeed and claws or just one of the two, doesn't matter since Lee has shit piercing durability, and then yanks Lee's heart out, or slices him to pieces or..well, you get the idea.

Also, an in character Killua usually fights close combat fights.

False, I already addressed this in the opener.

I would like to point that it is perfectly in character for Killua to use this. He used it twice, once at the beginning of the fight(second set of scans) and mid battle too(1st set of scans.).

He has started the fight with it once. And it has been his second move twice. So yeah, perfectly in character.

Given Drunken Rock Lee's hypersonic + speed and Rock Lee's base speed being superior to Killua's in addition to Godspeed's time limit, I honestly don't see this.

Woah woah. Since when is drunk Lee hypersonic+?

Scenario 2: CQC

I've already tackled most of the counters that Lee provided in the stats's sections. Leaving only one uncountered:

The illusions disperse after one attack, so with Rock Lee's combat speed, this will be proven mute.

Any reason why you seem to be suggesting he'll use it once? Rythm echo is one of his go to moves. And he is well aware that the illusions fade once they're attacked.

Well, that's about it. Summing it up, Killua has superior stats than Lee does. Has a bunch of oneshotting moves that can be used and has been used in many combinations and permutations. The only thing Lee can win with is gates, which is out of character for pre time skip Lee.

Overwhelming victory for Killua.

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#25  Edited By tomtheawesome123
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@streak619: I was thinking we could make this debate 4 post each as I feel like we will be able to maximize the things addressed.

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@gearsecond659: we have only one voter. Having a 4 post debate reduces our chances of voters. We'll probably get 0 votes if we do that.

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#29  Edited By tomtheawesome123

@streak619: dont worry i will vote after I read the thing.

Also, have you finished debating?

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@tomtheawesome123: I'm grateful, but I'm saying this out of experience more than speculation. I once did a 4 post CaV and I didn't get a single voter.

And no, there will be one more post from Gear and then one from my side.

We'll tag you when this ends.

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@tomtheawesome123: you missed the context of the feat. And giving your opinion before the debate is over is not allowed. So please delete that.

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CLOSER

No Caption Provided

COUNTERS

STRENGTH

Secondly, striking strength is more independent of lifting strength

The moment you conceded to this, the conversation ended. Therefore, Killua being able to push 16 tons doesn't mean crap when he lacks significant striking strength feats.

He just applies his inherent strength better, but if Killua's inherent strength happens to be massively superior to that of Lee's, then no amount of skill would be able to close the gap.

False. You have already conceded that lifting strength doesn't equate to striking strength, so Killua's "inherent strength" in regards to pushing 16 tons doesn't translate to applying that in a combat setting considering he has no real strength feats.

Sorta like how Spidey has better striking strength despite the fact that Batman has better skill.

That doesn't make any sense as an analogy. Batman's martial art skill has nothing to do with his striking strength, and as such has nothing to do with this debate. Anyone can apply their strength in combat, despite lacking any martial skill, so it is not an issue of skill, but more so striking strength.

He was sent rolling behind:

Touche. It is still impressive though and again, Rock Lee did this without even going all out.

Which is exactly what using angular momentum and torque to increase the force of your strikes mean, thank you for demonstrably proving my point.

Touche. However, it's not like this feat is all of a sudden invalid. Considering Rock Lee's martial prowess, he can do the same thing to Killua.

Not taking damage due to striking something hard isn't necessarily impressive. Especially the way Lee kicked Kimimaru. He kicked him with the sole of his shoe. I don't want to explain the physics of it to you, so I'll just use an analogy. If you were to kick an adamantium wall with sole of your shoes/foot, and take no real damage, would that be an impressive feat?

If you kick something dense hard enough, even with a shoe on, you run the risk of breaking your leg. If I kicked adamantium, even with a shoe on, if I kicked it with all my might, I could either break my foot or my leg. So I would argue this is a strength feat.

Objection. You're making 'stagger' sound like he did any real damage. He didn't. In fact, Kimimaru attacked him the very next instant.

That's just a testament to Kimimaro's endurance. He clearly took damage from the attack. And your logic is flawed. Just because someone attacks the next instant doesn't mean they no sold it.

Case and point, Jonathan Joestar vs Dio. Jonathan was kicked by Dio in the face, clearly taking damage from it, and the next instant, he grabs Dio and headbutts him. Are you going to say that Jonathan no sold that attack?

Now if you read all three scans thoroughly, one fact is pretty clear: Killua knew Gon would be ablle to send his opponent flying with one push after realising Gon is a 4 tonner.

Not necessarily. Killua knew Gon would be physically capable, but there was no evidence to imply that Killua predicted that this would happen. And again, you can't just go off of statements if Killua doesn't have the feats ti back it up. Also, since this in character Killua, we haven't seen Killua apply his strength in the same way that Gon has so your power scaling doesn't work considering we are talking about in character characters.

Conclusion: Being a 4 tonner means you can send people flying with one push.

Inference: Since Killua is a 16 tonner, he should be able to casually surpass that feat with a fraction of his strength.

Killua in this arc, can strike harder than both Gon and Lee, casually. Later on, Killua pushes through 5th testing gate which Weighs 64 tons. At this point Gon's striking feat would be child's play. Beyond child's play. Lee being weaker than Gon, there is no contest.

False. What directly contradicts this is the fact that Gon was CASUALLY pushing people into walls while it took a bloodlusted, full powered punch to send a smaller opponent to a wall from Killua. And before you say he was using Nen, or something like that, one he was blitzed so we don't know if he activated his Nen defense, and two, considering this is Heaven's Arena, it is plausible that Gon's opponents were also Nen users.

Thus, Rock Lee is clearly stronger than Killua from a striking strength perspective. Killua can't be scaled to Gon simply because the ladder has more feats and lifting strength clearly doesn't equate to striking strength.

SPEED

Unsubstantiated argument. Also, Gaara's sand has far better feats in shippuden.

Except the Sand itself doesn't get stronger as Gaara trains. His sand manipulation does, but there is no evidence that suggest the actual sand infused with his mother's consciousness gets stronger over time.

He smashed Killua with a backhand before Killua could even react. Last I checked, that was the definition of a blitz.

That's some serious wank. Getting tagged one time is a blitz now? Come on dude.

The fact that he he moved FTE to Youpi without any strain at all? The casualness was visible on his face.

Can I see a scan of this casualness on his face. And just because he moved FTE without any strain doesn't mean it is a casual attack. With that logic, then Rock Lee moving FTE from a statue to behind Gaara is a fraction of Rock Lee's speed. Using that argument just creates needless speculation and flawed power scaling.

You do realise Killua has nigh instantaneous reaction speed? There is zero processing of info, his aura sends an electric spark to his arm, which moves MHS. Since his aura actually transmutes to eletricity but possesses eletricity as well.

Okay. Rock Lee was literally unconscious, and yet he dodged hypersonic attacks from Kimimaro. And yes, Kimimaro is hypersonic because Rock Lee is hypersonic, and Kimimaro was keeping up with him. Rock Lee was unconsciously dodging these attacks. For reference, here is the definition of sleep

a condition of body and mind such as that which typically recurs for several hours every night, in which the nervous system is relatively inactive, the eyes closed, the postural muscles relaxed, and consciousness practically suspended.

The fact that Rock Lee was able to dodge hypersonic attacks while his nervous system was relatively inactive is very impressive, and while I do realize that Killua's reaction speed is better, here is the thing. For one, Rock Lee has no time limit on his reaction speed, while Killua does. He can only use his reaction speed on certain moves while Rock Lee's reaction speed applies to all attacks. Second of all, Killua has a short time limit in Godspeed while Rock Lee doesn't have a time limit. Third of all, Rock Lee starts the fight out faster than Killua, since Rock Lee has Drunken Rock Lee feats, while Killua doesn't, and during that time interval, Rock Lee will stomp Killua before he can even go into Godspeed.

No, he wasn't. He was heavily drunk and his eyes were half closed, but that isn't the same thing as sleeping. Also he was playing asleep, to trick Kimimaru many a times So really can't say he was legit asleep.

Yes I can. Rock Lee explicitly said, here "I was sleeping comfortably..."

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

No way. Killua's reaction speed is nigh instantaneous. He caught the Ortho Sibling's darts using Whirlwind:

Last I checked, nigh instantaneous wasn't a classification for reaction speed. With that logic, Killua would be able to react to things way faster than him such as MHS attacks, which I don't see happening. As such, given Godspeed's time limit and the fact that Drunken Rock Lee is significantly faster than Killua, unless Killua has feats of being able to react to someone on Rock Lee's calibre, I don't see how Killua can react to Rock Lee.

Conclusion: Killua in whirlwind will blitz and react to drunken Lee easily.

I am not arguing that Killua isn't faster than Rock Lee in Godspeed from a reaction speed standpoint. I am arguing that he is superior by such a small margin, considering that Rock Lee can dodge hypersonic attacks in his literal sleep. Furthermore, Rock Lee is hypersonic + considering he blitzed the hypersonic Kimimaro, while Killua's cap is only hypersonic. So how is Killua blitzing Rock Lee? The best he can do is stay on the defensive the whole time as reaction speed doesn't equate to combat speed. And again, Killua won't be able to dodge because of his all of Rock Lee's attacks because of his time limit, so just saying he can react to Drunken Rock Lee easily is wanking him.

DURABILITY/PAIN TOLERANCE

He got up unfazed and had tiny scratches after she striked him many times. He essentially no sold it.

I wouldn't say he got up unfazed. He clearly took damage from the attack.

Ko is extremely potent as was pointed out in my opener.

Here is my problem though. There are two many variables. You can't just say that just because everyone uses Ko that they have the same amount of attack potency. We don't know how power Palm's Ko is, so there are no real striking strength feats for her.

Even if I give her the benefit of the doubt here, the fact still stands that he still took damage from it and didn't no sell it.

Firstly, how can you say Killua would have definitely used it? How do you know he simply forgot about it in the moment?

That's some crap. Killua is a smart and observent guy, he isn't one to just forgot something in the moment.

Also even if he did remember, he wouldn't use Ko there, why you ask? Because Killua was, up until the Chimera arc, a complete pussy who ran away from things stronger than him

So you concede tat Killua knew his Ko wasn't strong enough to tank Razor's attack then, as you said that Killua runs away from things stronger than him, and with that logic, Killua knew his Ko couldn't defend against Razor's attack.

Pain doesn't have those kinda classifications.

Yeah it does

Impressive. But Killua has better feats and he was able to maintain peak mental condition and even genuinely smile undergoing excruciating pain. Pain means nothing.

Except Killua didn't have all of his muscles torn and his arm and leg broken and stand after that. So you can't say he has better pain tolerance feats.

PC

Tanked tail strikes from Meruem:

The attack Meruem landed on Pouf was clearly a blunt attack as Meruem didn't hit Pouf with the sharp end of his tail.

Pouf isn't arrogant or wreckless in nature. You're warping facts.

Yeah he was. Despite Killua telling him his abilities and warning him what will happen if he comes near him, Pouf, instead of assessing the situation, charged at Killua, resulting in him getting hurt.

Says he will provide feats for piercing durability.

->Shows Lee getting pierced.

It's a testament to Rock Lee's piercing pain tolerance, not durability. That was my fault for not clarifying the obvious.

CONCLUSION

SCENARIO 1

I'm not asserting Lee won't try. But I gave plenty of examples of Killua ruthlessly spamming and even opening fights with a Thunderbolt.

Given Rock Lee's speed advantage, make no mistake, Rock Lee WILL make this a close combat fight. And again, Killua has only used his Thunderbolt to one, support Gon and two, support Knuckle. It is strictly for support, not for 1v1. Even if you wanted to reference the Youpi fight, he used Lightning Pal, not Thunderbolt, and Rock Lee can easily dodge this with his superior speed.

SCENARIO 2

Any reason why you seem to be suggesting he'll use it once? Rythm echo is one of his go to moves. And he is well aware that the illusions fade once they're attacked.

Because an in character Killua only uses it once in fights. He has never used it multiple times after one of his illusions is dispersed.

FINAL THOUGHTS

Overall, Rock Lee beats Killua for the following reasons

  • Superior strength
  • Superior speed
  • Rock Lee has superior pain tolerance and durability
  • Godspeed doesn't have the COMBAT SPEED to keep up with Rock Lee offensively
  • Godspeed's reaction speed isn't as fast as you make it out to be
  • Killua in character won't start the fight out using thunderbolt

@streak619

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#37  Edited By Streak619

@gearsecond659: Just started and my strength section got wiped. It might be a few days before I work up the motivation to start again. Lol.

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T4V pls?

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Closer

Strength

Secondly, striking strength is more independent of lifting strength

The moment you conceded to this, the conversation ended. Therefore, Killua being able to push 16 tons doesn't mean crap when he lacks significant striking strength feats.

Me conceding to striking strength being less dependent on lifting strength isn't a valid premise for asserting that his lifting strength has nothing to do at all with his striking. That is quite literally contradictory in nature. I have trouble understanding how you came to such a conclusion, though I know why.

False. You have already conceded that lifting strength doesn't equate to striking strength

This is a textbook strawman's fallacy.

That doesn't make any sense as an analogy. Batman's martial art skill has nothing to do with his striking strength

Which is contradictory to what you said earlier:

The application of one's strength isn't just related to skill.

And:

Firstly, Your argument shifted from "Lee applies his strength better than Killua" to "Lee strikes harder than Killua"

The two are one in the same.

According to your statements:

a) application of strength partially depends on skill.

b) application of strength = striking strength.

Implication: striking strength partially depends on skill.

Which is contradictory to what you just said up there^.

Touche. It is still impressive though

How? I just debunked both your wanked beliefs of the distance and the spiralling shit. How is sending someone rolling 2-3 meters away impressive?

Rock Lee did this without even going all out.

This is a hypocritical argument, considering this is what you say when I claim Killua was holding back against Youpi:

Using that argument just creates needless speculation and flawed power scaling.

I said Killua was was holding back because of how strainless and casual he was about it. But when you claim Lee was holding back, it's perfectly free of supposed needless speculation and flawed power scaling? Get outta here.

However, it's not like this feat is all of a sudden invalid

Never said or implied that. The point is that Gon far surpassed Lee in terms of striking despite Lee using angular momentum to amp his striking. Tells you something about the gap, doesn't it?

If you kick something dense hard enough, even with a shoe on, you run the risk of breaking your leg. If I kicked adamantium, even with a shoe on, if I kicked it with all my might, I could either break my foot or my leg.

I never said that you wouldn't break your foot if you kicked with your toes or the joints of your toes. I said you wouldn't break your foot if you kicked with your sole:

If you were to kick an adamantium wall with sole of your shoes/foot, and take no real damage, would that be an impressive feat?

If you kick a wall of concrete with the sole of your foot, nothing is gonna happen to you.

if I kicked it with all my might, I could either break my foot or my leg. So I would argue this is a strength feat.

And since Lee didn't break his foot. It isn't a strength feet. Neither is it a durability argument.

That's just a testament to Kimimaro's endurance. He clearly took damage from the attack.

Where?

No Caption Provided

He swatted him away like a bug after the strike. Later panels reveal no damage done to Kimimaru at all.

Stop wanking feats so blatantly.

Killua knew Gon would be physically capable, but there was no evidence to imply that Killua predicted that this would happen.

No Caption Provided

Killua: 'You passed the test of the door, didn't you? In that case, you only have to....(push)'

The fact that Killua told Gon pushing was enough, implies that Killua knew pushing was enough based on the fact that Gon was a 4 tonner. Which implies that being a 4 tonner means you can send people flying with a push in HXH universe. End of story.

Well, all of this is besides the fact that Gon and Killua have equal ryu's:

No Caption Provided

It means x% of Gon's striking strength = x% of Killua's striking strength. This is true because Ryu means matching the amount of aura your opponent puts in their strikes:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

As one can see, their amped striking strengths are equal. Which would be impossible if Killua had lesser inherent stength

False. What directly contradicts this is the fact that Gon was CASUALLY pushing people into walls while it took a bloodlusted, full powered punch to send a smaller opponent to a wall from Killua. And before you say he was using Nen, or something like that, one he was blitzed so we don't know if he activated his Nen defense, and two, considering this is Heaven's Arena, it is plausible that Gon's opponents were also Nen users.

Zushi was using ten from the beginning:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

His unbelievable endurance came from ten, which he had already mastered:

Speed

Except the Sand itself doesn't get stronger as Gaara trains. His sand manipulation does, but there is no evidence that suggest the actual sand infused with his mother's consciousness gets stronger over time.

No, this a fallcious argument. This is an Appeal from ignorance fallacy. The lack of evidence for a certain statement, is not a valid premise for asserting the opposite of said statement.

That's some serious wank. Getting tagged one time is a blitz now? Come on dude.

Like I said. Rammot was able to swing his arm and smash Killua before Killua could even react at all, which is the very definition of a blitz.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

He leaped and smashed the both away before they could do anything about it. Later on Killua couldn't react to his strikes:

No Caption Provided

Not to mention, this was casual, look at him grinning.

So the fact that Killua was able to blitz kill this guy before he realised he was deccqpitated is a huge boost in speed.

Can I see a scan of this casualness on his face.

No Caption Provided

Does it seem like the dude is doing his best? He was looking down Youpi the entire time.

Okay. Rock Lee was literally unconscious, and yet he dodged hypersonic attacks from Kimimaro.

No he wasn't. Just because his eyes were closed and he made snoring sounds doesn't mean he was quite literally unconscious. The dude was drunk, and all his moves were quite reflexsive. But to say he was literally unconscious is ridiculous.

The fact that Rock Lee was able to dodge hypersonic attacks while his nervous system was relatively inactive is very impressive

Since we know he has pretended to be asleep before. You need more evidence than him just seeming to be asleep to say that he was actually asleep. Which you've avoided all this time.

Yes I can. Rock Lee explicitly said, here "I was sleeping comfortably..."

He was lying. Playing to be asleep is nothing new:

No Caption Provided

Last I checked, nigh instantaneous wasn't a classification for reaction speed.

Ah my bad. It's nigh instantaneous reaction time. Not speed.

With that logic, Killua would be able to react to things way faster than him such as MHS attacks, which I don't see happening.

So? Something that hasn't been done cannot be done despite there being explicit evidence?:

No Caption Provided

Nigh instantaneous reaction speed. He caught it the moment it appeared. It doesn't get more explicit than this. How nigh instantaneous is it? IDK. But definitely massively above supersonic range since Killua couldn't even acknowledge the arrows before they hit him in base form:

No Caption Provided

And now he's able to react to it and even catch a massively supersonic dart before it could move a freaking millimeter. So yeah nigh instantaneous when you compare it to people like Lee.

unless Killua has feats of being able to react to someone on Rock Lee's calibre, I don't see how Killua can react to Rock Lee.

Blitzing Youpi, Blitzing Pouf on multiple occassions and of course catching a massively supersonic dart before it could move a few millimeters.

Durability/ Pain Tolerence:

I wouldn't say he got up unfazed. He clearly took damage from the attack

Where?

No Caption Provided

He completely and quite visibly no sold all the punches. And took a few scratches from that final kick.

Here is my problem though. There are two many variables. You can't just say that just because everyone uses Ko that they have the same amount of attack potency. We don't know how power Palm's Ko is, so there are no real striking strength feats for her.

Bruh:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Scan1: Bisky takes a few seconds to land a slow punch amped with Ko.

Scan2: Gon is sent flying 10 meters or so, while ending up with a bunch of bruises and a bloody nose.

So even in the worst case scenario, Palm's punchs would still be massively stronger than that punch^ and Killua no sold many of them.

That's some crap. Killua is a smart and observent guy, he isn't one to just forgot something in the moment.

How is him being smart and observant a valid premise for saying he would never forget something in a heated and stressful situation? Are you saying all smart and observant people always use their available resources with 100% efficiency? Because that is some crap right there.

So you concede tat Killua knew his Ko wasn't strong enough to tank Razor's attack then, as you said that Killua runs away from things stronger than him, and with that logic, Killua knew his Ko couldn't defend against Razor's attack.

No Killua runs away from things that he can match too as she mentioned in the scan that I already probided to you. As Bisky mentioned:

No Caption Provided

It's irritating how most of your arguments are based off of ignoring context or information.

Yeah it does

No it doesn't. If you can endure a million volts of eletricity every second while maintaining peak mental capacity and smile and actually laugh. You can be damn well sure that you'd do the same for a broken arm or something. Pain is just essentially your nerves spamming pain messages to your brain. Regardless of whether it comes from blunt force, piercing or heat.

PC

The attack Meruem landed on Pouf was clearly a blunt attack as Meruem didn't hit Pouf with the sharp end of his tail.

Listen man, if you're not gonna substantiate your arguments with scans. Then there is nothing I can say, I am not gonna keep going outta my way to debunk your unsubstantiated arguments..

Yeah he was. Despite Killua telling him his abilities and warning him what will happen if he comes near him, Pouf, instead of assessing the situation, charged at Killua

That wasn't him being arrogant, that was him being desperate. Meruem was gonna reach in a few minutes. You think he had enough time to actually brainstorm a plan? And then execute it perfectly?

Besides using Ken in battle is common sense.

It's a testament to Rock Lee's piercing pain tolerance, not durability. That was my fault for not clarifying the obvious.

You still have not provided piercing durability feats.

Scenario1: Thunderbolt.

Killua has only used his Thunderbolt to one, support Gon and two, support Knuckle. It is strictly for support, not for 1v1.

It's not explicitly for support:

No Caption Provided

He says: "Let's try this". Which doesn't mean he launched as support for Gon. Clearly it was mean as an atgack from his side.

Conclusion: It is very in character to start and use thunderbolt as he did here.

Scenario2: CQC.

Because an in character Killua only uses it once in fights. He has never used it multiple times after one of his illusions is dispersed.

So according to you, in a life and death situation where the only thing that would save him happens to be rythm echo, he wouldn't use it thinking: "ah damn, I already used it once, so, no can do"? Really?

What kind of an argument is this? He used it once because he didn't feel the ned to use it again. It was ineffective against Netero and pointless against Rhino because having him bimp around into trees would not kill him.

Addressing your final thoughts

Overall, Rock Lee beats Killua for the following reasons

  • Superior strength

You provides three strength feats, alll of which I debunked and you didn't even counter. Since you ignored my counters, you no longer have any strength feats left for Lee.

I would like to make this real clear to the voters. He has 0 strength feats as of this moment. Meaning Killua wins in terms of strength by default.

  • Superior speed

You provided no evidence for Gaara's sand speed remaining the same, a claim that you made.

  • Rock Lee has superior pain tolerance and durability

You provided one durability feat, where you claimed Rock Lee did not take any damage. Which I debunked by providing a scan where he did take damage, which you ignored intentionally.

So as of right now, just like for strength, you have 0 valid arguments. Meaning Killua gets an automatic win.

  • Godspeed doesn't have the COMBAT SPEED to keep up with Rock Lee offensively

Why is it that you NEVER brought this point up in the speed aection? Why on Earth would you do something as stupid as bringing up a brand new argument in your 'final thoughts' section without providing even a shred of evidence?

You do realise all the feats I provided for Godspeed are combat speed feats? This is a desperate argument if I've ever seen one.

  • Godspeed's reaction speed isn't as fast as you make it out to be

Again, why is it that you never brought this point up before. Up until here all you've ever said is "Lee's reaction speed is close to as good as Killua's", but here, in you 'final thoughts' section, you decide to downplay it with no evidence behind this?

So in the end, both strength and durability advantage automatically come to me because Gear ignored all my debunks regarding his arguments,.

I have a massive reaction speed advantage, huge PC that Gear provided no piercing durability feats against, so I win that automatically too. I have better pain tolerence. I have many one shotting abilities that can and have been used in many combinations and permutations, all of which Gear has no durability feats, so again automatic win there. Oh and all of these are in character and Lee cannot see nen at all, so he can't even deal with a lot of them.

I realise I sound kinda moronic right about now, saying random shit randomly, in my defense I typed this in a drunken stupor. But nevertheless folks, landslide victory for me. Peace.

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@streak619: It's been nice debating you again and may the best man win :)

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My vote goes to @streak619. He won by a pretty good margin too. He clearly went through all of Killua's powers and abilities, went in depth on all his stats with scans backing everything up, and gave good reasons as to why he would win the fight. @gearsecond659 relied too much on the assumption Lee was faster than Killua in this as well. His entire argument hinged on it yet he didn't give any scans that proved he was definitely, if at all, faster than Killua. His final reasons for why Lee wins is because he is faster than stronger, but from what I saw in the debate it was Killua who seemed undoubtedly faster and stronger, plus he has a vast arsenal of moves. Because of this, streak is the winner.

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#46  Edited By DeathHero61

@streak619: Takes my vote, he actually tried. Gearsecond was barely trying and he didn't even bother posting feats, he was debunked several times. He didn't analyze Naruto or Sasuke to utilize in his scaling, he didn't bring up Gaara's part 1 speed feats, let alone the aforementioned leaf ninjas.(he had access to composite feats, meaning he probably could have used anime filler or movies to help with his arguments)

Streak could have elaborated on skill and tactics though.

I really don't want to go into detail but if necessary i will.

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#47  Edited By Streak619
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@deathhero61:

Streak could have elaborated on skill and tactics though.

I didn't feel the need to go into a section which was a non factor in my argument. Not to mention, he didn't say a word about it despite having an advantage there.

As for tactics, I dedicated 2-3 scetions for strategy and scenario so...

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@streak619: Takes my vote, he actually tried. Gearsecond was barely trying and he didn't even bother posting feats, he was debunked several times. He didn't analyze Naruto or Sasuke to utilize in his scaling, he didn't bring up Gaara's part 1 speed feats, let alone the aforementioned leaf ninjas.(he had access to composite feats, meaning he probably could have used anime filler or movies to help with his arguments)

Streak could have elaborated on skill and tactics though.

I really don't want to go into detail but if necessary i will.

Now I don't really tend to try and ask people to elaborate on their votes, but I just can't accept this. For one, I did post scans of Rock Lee's feats and for the claims that I didn't post scans for, my opponent didn't as for them. Second, I didn't bring up Gaara's part 1 speed feats because they weren't impressive enough to prove that Lee is faster than Killua. The same applies to scaling him to Naruto and Sasuke and the leaf ninjas. And I only had access to manga and anime, not movies or filler.