CaV Revamp: Invincible (TheDailyBagel) vs Saitama (Defiant_Will)

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defiant_will

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#1  Edited By defiant_will

Challenge-A-Viner

As the title implies, this CaV is a redo of a debate with the same premise. Different arguments and angles will be presented in this clash of heroic titans. So once again, TDB and I are proud to present the battle between the Viltrumite and the Caped Baldy:

No Caption Provided

Rules

  • Both Characters are Absolutely Serious and Focused
  • Both Characters are in Their Prime
  • Manga/Webcomic Feats for Saitama
  • Fight to K.O. or Death
  • Fighters Start 50 Feet Apart
  • Fight Takes Place on an Uninhabited, Indestructible Earth
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defiant_will

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@thedailybagel it is up. as agreed, you are going first. Looking forward to your post :)

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CocaColaMan

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TAEP

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MasterofPuppets

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taep

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Battle123axe

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Chimeroid

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not making any promises about voting, but do Tag

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JaylinFreeman

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TAEP please

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PaulPogba

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not making any promises about voting, but do Tag

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Ehnkr2Beboh

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Seems interesting. Tag for first post and I'll see if I want to continue.

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GhostRavage

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Tag for votes.

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TAEP

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Thedailybagel

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#12  Edited By Thedailybagel

Disclaimer: This post is very similar to my opener in the last CAV as my opening argument is pretty much the exact same.

The images organised side by side are broken right now however if you right click and open on a new tab they still work.

Mark Grayson - Invincible

No Caption Provided

Mark Grayson (also known as Invincible) is a Viltrumite; a race of superpowered beings that all possess the same abilities to a varying extent:

  • Super strength
  • Super speed
  • Flight
  • Heightened healing/pain tolerance

All these abilities are powered by something called Smart Atoms. Invincible is 144 issues long and Mark has evolved both as a character and in terms of power as the series has gone on. So the earlier the issue number, the weaker the Invincible. Some scaling will probably be used throughout the debate to help establish my points, as by the end of the series Mark is easily the second strongest character, and could maybe be argued as the strongest. For more info here's his official Handbook entry:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

With that out of the way, shall we get into the debate?

The slugfest

Saitama and Mark are both pretty much just super fast bricks which means there aren't many roads that this debate can go down. They both have pretty much the exact same powerset other than Mark being able to fly (which I'll get to soon). In terms of physicals Mark isn't a slouch by any means, I'd be hard pressed to argue that he can straight up go blow for blow here but at the very least he can give Saitama hell. A saving grace of his is his damage soak which I'll showcase with one of his best feats, namely Invincible #75 wherein himself, Thaedeus and Omni-Man bullrush Viltrum at lightspeed, disrupt the core with the help of Space Racer's laser and come out the other side relatively unscathed...

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

I should probably point out that Mark isn't a planet buster and nor is any Viltrumite, they wouldn't have been able to accomplish what they did without Space Racer. What I want to highlight is the destruction they cause and tank as a result of entering and exiting the planet. Also notice how Mark and Nolan are fully capable of interacting with each other whilst moving so fast because that will be important later on. Whilst this is quite high end, Mark shows the ability to shrug off things like city busting attacks quite often, such as Invincible #69 and Invincible #80. The former where he takes repeated blasts from a city busting laser and the latter where he no sells being at the centre of a blast that vaporises Los Vegas and turns the ground to glass.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

This should establish a base line for the level that Invincible is operating on consistently. In terms of damage output, Mark has been matching these levels since his early days, such as when he bullrushed Allen The Alien into the moon and caused a huge crater as a result in Invincible #5...

No Caption Provided

At the very least Mark and Saitama are operating on a similar tier where striking and durability is concerned and I'm only scratching the surface here. Physically, I'd argue that Mark is stronger given that he's been able to carry huge pillars that weigh thousands of tons as early as issue 30. Mark's best raw strength feat probably occurred in The Pact #2 wherein he slowed down and redirected a huge Meteor:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
Reverse order

If nothing else, the aim of this section is moreso to demonstrate that Mark and Saitama are peers in raw physical output and that neither of them will be beating the shit out of the other from the get go. I might be leaning slightly towards Saitama in a slugfest but it wouldn't be an easy task by any means. However this raises a new issue that Saitama has never really encountered before

This ain't no slugfest

Saitama could potentially hold every relevant physical advantage, and whilst this might be true, every physical advantage does not mean every advantage. Invincible has three things that make it hard for me to see him losing...

  • Saitama may fight faster, but Invincible's raw and operational speed is on a completely different level
  • Invincible can fly
  • Invincible has a brain

And boy does he like to use all of these things in unison. For starters, when it comes down to it Mark has loose morals and will kill if he needs to, or sometimes when he doesn't. I think this is necessary for the strategy I'll be getting to. Secondly, Mark's raw speed makes Saitama's look like a joke. Even in his early days Mark could travel to the Midde East from the USA before his Hot Dog could hit the floor.

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Invincible #3

Viltrumites are biographically confirmed to be FTL in travel speed (Source: The Official Handbook of the Invincible Universe #2). Mark himself is comfortably FTL in travel speed and managed to momentarily outspeed an FTL Spaceship(2) in Invincible #77. Mark was able to process what he was doing in that instance and scan Earth for evidence of Viltrumites so it's not like he mindlessly turned off his brain to operate at such speeds, and he did the same with Nolan when they crashed through Viltrum. In terms of combat speed, Mark's first fight with Conquest in Invincible #63 was at such a rate that satellite feeds were 5 minutes behind what was actually going on, they couldn't even get anyone else involved because they were crossing large distances too quickly...

No Caption Provided

it's worth noting how much more powerful Mark became after all of these feats as well (which I'll elaborate on later). To throw in a bit of scaling, Mark's father Omni-Man was so quick that he managed to blitz the entirety of the Guardians of the Globe before anyone could see a thing in issue #7...

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This included the Red Rush who was fast enough to beat up some thugs, arrest a supervillain before he knew what was going on, and save a cat from a tree before his partner even noticed he was doing it between words. For reference, Mark had reached his father's level by Invincible #106 yet received another amp later on and further increased in power when he got older. So by the end he was massively superior to Nolan. With the speed established, let's get to why Mark should win this.

The Strategy

This is actually quite simple, likely to happen and one you should have no real counter for. In layman's terms Mark has utilized his speed and flight against physically superior foes by cutting off their air supply or quite literally just dragging them to space and abusing his flight. He did this as early as Invincible #17 where he dragged Thomas Winter's to space and just left him there until he passed out.

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He used a similar tactic against Conquest in Invincible #72 except it was more combat oriented. He slammed into him to knock the wind out of him and immediately strangled him so he couldn't get a breath. Mark literally had his guts punched out, was slammed into the planet at re-entry speeds and tore up a huge landscape but refused to let go.

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I've left out some scans but nothing contextual is missing

This is significant because Conquest could fly (which is a massive advantage that Saitama lacks) and was Mark's superior in every conceivable way. Against Conquest, Mark actually comboed him into space in their first fight as one of his opening moves...

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Invincible #62

Finally, Mark did a similar thing in Invincible #142 where he flew Rex off of Earth near instantly to get him out of rang of his robots and just punched through his stomach when he was practically helpless in space...

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There are pages in between these two, but it's just a conversation so I left it out

I shouldn't have to spell out why this is a near flawless strategy to perform against Saitama:

  • It doesn't rely on intimate combat speed and Mark pretty much only needs to move in a straight line, which means Mark's raw speed should make him completely invisible if he wants to be
  • Saitama can't fly so there's not much he can do once airbound
  • Saitama needs to breathe, whereas adult Viltrumites can hold their breath for two weeks
  • He's never really encountered anyone like Invincible... Ever, so isn't really prepared for tactics like this
  • Its's an entirely consistent set of strategies for Mark to employ

I don't think Mark will attempt this right off the bat and he might not even need to resort to this. However when Mark fights someone on par or stronger than him he pretty much always looks up and will find environmental advantages to swing things in his favour. Can Saitama win in a straight fight? There's a strong argument that he could. However Mark will very rarely just go blow for blow with someone that can give him a run for his money and Saitama has never encountered anyone comparable to Mark, whereas Mark is totally prepared for what Saitama is bringing to the table.

Overall

To be honest, I came into this apprehensively because I'm aware how tough Saitama is. On paper it's a relatively even match with each having certain advantages over the other. But then I remembered how resourceful Mark is, he's used to employing different tactics when simply punching something isn't enough to win and to be honest once Saitama is airbound -which he will be- he's pretty much screwed. I've kept certain cards close to my chest where a straight fight is concerned because I'm interested in seeing if Saitama is capable of dealing with the strategy I've outlined. I'm not sure he does, but I wish you the best of luck in your reply my friend.

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Nice

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No Caption Provided

Opener | "You Mind If I Get Serious?"

Saitama's mentality in this fight is an factor I touched on in my last opener, but I don't think I really gave it the justice it deserves. It should come as no surprise to anyone who has any semblance of knowledge of OPM that all of the feats I am bringing up are far from Saitama's limit. This is because Saitama is notorious for being a jobber. He is so overwhelmingly strong that fighting enemies that are the "pinnacle of evolution" has become mundane to him. Saitama doesn't take battles seriously at all, such is the whole premise of OPM. In the heat of battle, he is literally thinking of supermarket sales instead of the fight itself. Even against Boros, this reigns true. Despite implications that hyped this fight up as one where Saitama would have to go all out, Boros on his death bed admits he barely even fazed Saitama. Readers of OPM have not yet gotten any insight as to what a serious Saitama would fight like, which is more so a boon if anything considering how casually all of his fights have been. It is important that this aspect is made crystal clear because, as the OP explicitly states, Saitama will be "absolutely serious and focused." Needless to say, supermarket sales will be the last thing on Saitama's mind in this fight. With that said, let's begin:

The Battle At Hand

It Will Be a Slugfest (Just Not a Long One)

To not beat around the bush, you seem to be banking on Mark bullrushing Saitama into space where Saitama will eventually die due to a lack of oxygen. However, you yourself admit that Mark won't use this tactic from jump:

I don't think Mark will attempt this right off the bat and he might not even need to resort to this. However when Mark fights someone on par or stronger than him he pretty much always looks up and will find environmental advantages to swing things in his favour.

I want to take a deeper look into this argument. It seems that Mark's application of the whole "space BFR gg" tactic is contingent on Mark assessing Saitama's battle prowess and then choosing the right course of action from there. In that respect, I would agree with you from what I've been shown. Before he resorted to BFR against Thomas Winters, he received a detailed breakdown on Winters and even asked about how long he can hold his breath. Granted, Mark didn't receive a proper answer to not waste too much time. However, I think the fact that Mark went out of his way to ask this question lends further credence to Mark really only resorting to these BFRs after having sufficient knowledge of his opponent.

At this point, you may be asking why this is detrimental. It is only a matter of time before Saitama gets dragged into space, right? That's where you would be wrong. Saitama possess a significant physical edge over Mark from what has been shown thus far. What's more is that Mark's speed advantage with his FTL flight wouldn't become relevant until after Mark decides to use the bullrush. Meaning, until then, Mark would be completely at the mercy of Saitama's superior fight speed, which you yourself even admitted:

Saitama may fight faster, but Invincible's raw and operational speed is on a completely different level

If it isn't obvious at this point, I am arguing that Saitama will end this fight before Mark has the chance to even consider BFRing Saitama into space. So allow me to get right into proving that-

Speed

Essential to this assertion is cementing Saitama's superiority in speed, specifically combat speed. I am not going to deny that FTL flight is out of Saitama's wheelhouse movement wise, but even you draw a clear distinction between travel and combat speed. Comparatively, Mark falls quite short to his own travel speed and to Saitama's combat speed. The implications of this combat speed disparity means that Saitama has all the freedom in the world to abuse this, be it through after images or blitzes. And no travel speed in the world is going to help Mark get out of a blitz scenario once Saitama gets started

Saitama is really friggin fast. This is best shown via his interaction with Flashy Flash. Below, we see Flashy Flash fighting Gale Wind and Hellfire Flame so fast that they are covering hundreds upon hundreds of meters while statuing the explosion on the bridge beneath them:

One Punch Man: Chapter 96
One Punch Man: Chapter 96

And yes, that was an explosion that only fully expanded at the end of the fight. All three parties in this fight can move at these speeds, with Flashy Flash scaling far above even that by virtue of blitzing them after getting serious. To statue an explosion to such a degree that it doesn't even fully expand after having moved hundreds of meters is insane. Especially considering the explosive expansion itself was pretty small considering the size of the explosion, around 10ish meters. It would be no exaggeration to call this feat quad mach (thousands of times faster than sound) and would be quite generous to not argue this at low quint (tens of thousands faster than sound). Anyway, let's examine how Flashy Flash, the fastest of the three by a significant degree, stacks up against the Caped Baldy:

One Punch Man: Chapter 115
One Punch Man: Chapter 115

Saitama effortlessly bobs and weaves through Flashy Flash's attempted blitz where he was explicitly trying to kill him, thinking the Caped Baldy to be an enemy monster. Such speed extends beyond just reactions. Saitama was explicitly shown moving and fighting at relative speeds to Flashy Flash himself and afterwards, Saitama says Flashy is "kinda" fast, much to Flashy's surprise.

One Punch Man: Chapter 126
One Punch Man: Chapter 126

To fight at Flashy Flash speeds is far from out of Saitama's wheelhouse, even further away from his limit. I am confident in Saitama having the combat speed edge over Mark given that Mark's only combat speed showing thus far is the satellite feat, which falls pretty short of Flashy's feat. As I said before, FTL travel speed isn't all that relevant when you are being blitzed relentlessly. What stops a serious Saitama from doing this:

One Punch Man: Chapter 36
One Punch Man: Chapter 36

A blitz strat can be supplemented by his skill with afterimages. Saitama can make his opponent fight his afterimage leaving him free to do as he pleases (against Genos he chose to run away). He can also create countless afterimages at once, disorienting his opponent while also releasing a powerful shockwave:

One Punch Man: Chapter 44
One Punch Man: Chapter 44

Needless to say, combat speed is an advantage Mark can not afford to give up against Saitama, who heavily abuses his speed. Mark's only speed advantage is via travel speed, and you admitted that he won't use that as his first attack. Such a mistake is more than enough for Saitama to set up a blitz and pummel Mark. And he certainly has the power to do so:

Overwhelming Physicality

To be quite blunt, Mark is very clearly outclassed based on the feats you have shown for Mark. The first thing that rubbed me the wrong way is how you presented Mark's feats. You showed Mark taking an explosion relative to a planetary size and then you show Mark tanking city busters?

Whilst this is quite high end, Mark shows the ability to shrug off things like city busting attacks quite often, such as Invincible #69 and Invincible #80. The former where he takes repeated blasts from a city busting laser and the latter where he no sells being at the centre of a blast that vaporises Los Vegas and turns the ground to glass.

Conceptually, this doesn't make much sense to me. What perplexes me even more is why you felt the need to present such feats against Saitama. Like, the Saitama that destroys a multi city level meteorite without breaking a sweat. As Genos himself notes, this meteorite would ravage several cities and Saitama explicitly negged its KE. Multi city level + striking power is something Saitama can do without any trouble, so I don't know why you brought these city busting feats up. That said, there seems to be two feats you are banking on, so I will get to them.

The first one is Viltrum feat. In terms of DC, it should not be lost on anyone that this showing is the textbook example of a "shared feat." Even if we ignore the Space Racer's contribution, this level of damage was the result of three, physically comparable combatants bullrushing at top speeds:

Invincible: Issue 75
Invincible: Issue 75

Let the record show that despite those factors, this still appeared to be a very physically strenuous feat to accomplish. I am emphasizing this context because the damage done, at least visually, looks just over continent busting, the Viltrum core's destabilization doing the rest of the damage. Given that, can we really say that is enough to put down Saitama. After all, Saitama can tank the impact of his own jump, which created a country wide shockwave just through take off.

One Punch Man: Chapter 36
One Punch Man: Chapter 36

As a durability feat, this isn't enough to take Saitama's punches. Saitama's Serious Punch against Boros overpowered his planet surface busting CSRC attack with its shockwave. The DC of the shockwave then went on to disperse clouds on a multi continental scale near instantly:

One Punch Man: Chapter 36
One Punch Man: Chapter 36

The potency of Saitama's physical punch is far greater than the DC of its shockwave, as even common sense would dictate. So tanking the continent level destruction isn't enough against Saitama. The second feat, the moon crater, has a similar problem. The crater created was a bullrush from Mark and even that level of striking isn't really enough to hurt Saitama given his moon jump (again, the sheer take off created a country wide shockwave).

It should be clear that Saitama can quite easily blitz Mark and beat him into submission, at least from the feats presented. While I don't see Mark recovering from this blitz, I will indulge you and try and address Mark's proposed tactical edge:

Invincible has a brain

However when Mark fights someone on par or stronger than him he pretty much always looks up and will find environmental advantages to swing things in his favour.

This is hardly significant to Saitama. What you are illustrating in terms of environmental awareness is exactly what Saitama used against Monster Garou. Saitama lifted all of the rubble from the Monster Association HQ high into the air in order to capitalize on potential blindspots. This disoriented Garou and allowed Saitama to land a chain of punches.

Your emphasis on Invincible's tactics seems a bit exaggerated since Saitama isn't exactly lacking in that regard. At all.

===================================================================================

As you said, this is a pretty simple battle.. Two bricks going head to head. However, I'd favor Saitama in such a fight due to his clear physical edge and superior speed, both of which can be used in tandem to knock out Mark. That said, I look forward to what you bring next and let's have a fun debate :)

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Nice. Quick too

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#20  Edited By JaylinFreeman

Noice.

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#21  Edited By Thedailybagel

Round 2

"I wish you could hear me. Because I just figured out why I'm going to win and you're definitely going to lose."

After your post I'm much more confident in Invincible's victory. You took a route that I was expecting you to go down and my argument largely remains unchanged. Your opener was good but I feel like there's several... Glaring issues in your approach where Mark's prowess is concerned. Particularly speed, which you seemed to really misunderstand so I'll kick things off with that.

The speed debate

Your argument with this essentially boiled down to travel speed doesn't = combat speed so Saitama can blitz Mark. What you missed is that I was very specific with my wording. I said "Saitama may fight faster, but Invincible's raw and operational speed is on a completely different level". I made careful mention to point out multiple instances of Mark moving at light speed whilst performing actions which clearly display that he can perceive things at such speeds and perform complex actions such as moving his limbs and body or scanning an entire planet. Ergo, he can still see and react to what Saitama is doing even if he isn't spamming the same number of punches. The only reason I conceded combat speed is because Mark doesn't abuse it in combat the same way that Saitama does (although that's mostly because he constantly holds back). When he's serious and willing to kill he has no problem blitzing and punching heads off. When two Viltrumite level beings clash they get sent flying then chase each other at high speed only for someone to be bashed in a different direction. They don't stand around smacking each other in the face really fast in a close space like in the world of OPM. This was evident as far back as Invincible #12 when a really young Mark fought Omni-Man...

This is a really early/much much weaker version of Invincible, btw. He surpasses Nolan by a good margin later.
This is a really early/much much weaker version of Invincible, btw. He surpasses Nolan by a good margin later.

It was the exact same with Mark and Conquest From Mark comboing Conquest what looks to be thousands of miles to Conquest dragging Mark across the planet and was spoonfed to us that even Kid Omni-Man couldn't catch up to them trading blows whilst chasing in a straight line...

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What I'm getting at is just because the fights aren't drawn in the same way with the same physics doesn't mean they aren't happening at a high speed and there's a multitude of examples depicting this. Mark has shown on multiple occasions to perceive and react to events literally hundreds of times faster than Saitama's scaling. Am I saying Mark is going to speed blitz Saitama? No, he doesn't spam punches. Am I saying that Mark is more than quick enough to react to anything Saitama does? Yes. Am I saying that once Mark attempts a bullrush Saitama won't see what hit him? Also yes.

Needless to say, combat speed is an advantage Mark can not afford to give up against Saitama, who heavily abuses his speed. Mark's only speed advantage is via travel speed, and you admitted that he won't use that as his first attack. Such a mistake is more than enough for Saitama to set up a blitz and pummel Mark.

I'm only directly addressing this point because I have no issues with Saitama's showings here. What I take issue with is your constant mentioning of 'travel speed' as though Mark needs to bolt in a straight line for his reactions to matter - he doesn't. Your banking on Mark not having the raw reaction time to compete with Saitama's blitz when I've already shown him react to things moving faster than Saitama can dream of. The people he fights and keeps pace with have also reacted at those speeds. Like Conquest, who tracked a huge MFTL spaceship in Invincible #71 and destroyed the whole thing. whilst it was moving..

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Firstly, notice that two panels before impact Oliver mentions that planets are just blurs showing how fast the ship is moving. Secondly, one of the technicians said the object 'compensated to maintain course' indicating Conquest shifted his speed/trajectory to insure he still hit the ship. Indicating he was already tracking it, following it and on course to hit it

I say MFTL because by Mark's own admission it'd been a couple days since leaving Earth and the ship was already in a new star system and even the closest star system to ours is over 4 light years away... To put that into perspective it took that ship days to travel what would take light >at least< 4 years at the absolute minimum distance we can use. If you put Saitama on the moon and the ship flew by he wouldn't see it. You could times his speed by 10 and he still wouldn't see it. You could double it from that point and he still wouldn't be able to see it. That's how fast Viltrumites (I use the plural because two other Viltrumites were present as well) can percieve and adjust their bodies to. So pray tell why won't Mark be able to see or react to quint to quad mach speed? Then you have someone like even faster like Thragg, who even Conquest is shit scared of and someone who actually does use his speed all the time. Who straight up blitzed Thaedeus's head off in Invincible #75 which was also his first fight in the series...

This was right after Thadeus moved at lightspeed and could keep pace with Space Racer's Laser
This was right after Thadeus moved at lightspeed and could keep pace with Space Racer's Laser

Then right after, perceived and chased down Mark running for his life in the following issue, then proceeded to react to a bullrush from Omni-Man and punch right through his stomach...

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Keep in mind this is right after Mark had flown at lightspeed through a planet and an issue before he outraced an FTL spaceship, so we have a ballpark at the speed him and Omni-Man can move in a straight line in high stress situations. Yet Thragg reacted to both of them. Not just using his 'travel speed' in a straight line - he perceived and reacted with his limbs to the travel speed of both Mark and Nolan. Now yes, Thragg isn't Mark and is clearly much tougher than he is. However after Mark's amp he was literally dodging punches from Thragg left and right during their fight in the sun during Invincible #139 and #140...

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Not only was he dodging punches from someone categorically capable of reacting to things faster than Saitama, but he was able to dodge a punch, fly behind Thragg and push him further into the sun before he could react...

No Caption Provided

Given that this is another example of Mark pulling a strategy that i'm proposing on someone who totally outsped multiple people who can percieve and react to shit at lightspeed... What on Earth is stopping him from doing this to someone considerably slower like Saitama?

No, it won't be a slugfest.

want to take a deeper look into this argument. It seems that Mark's application of the whole "space BFR gg" tactic is contingent on Mark assessing Saitama's battle prowess and then choosing the right course of action from there. In that respect, I would agree with you from what I've been shown. Before he resorted to BFR against Thomas Winters, he received a detailed breakdown on Winters and even asked about how long he can hold his breath. Granted, Mark didn't receive a proper answer to not waste too much time. However, I think the fact that Mark went out of his way to ask this question lends further credence to Mark really only resorting to these BFRs after having sufficient knowledge of his opponent.

At this point, you may be asking why this is detrimental. It is only a matter of time before Saitama gets dragged into space, right? That's where you would be wrong. Saitama possess a significant physical edge over Mark from what has been shown thus far. What's more is that Mark's speed advantage with his FTL flight wouldn't become relevant until after Mark decides to use the bullrush. Meaning, until then, Mark would be completely at the mercy of Saitama's superior fight speed, which you yourself even admitted:

You're reaching here. He didn't ask for a breakdown on Thomas's power and abilities, he just asked "what the story was" before he got involved. Him asking about his breath was more Mark thinking out loud than waiting for an answer and Mark has performed the same tactic enough for it to be consistent for him to do without asking permission every time... Regardless, I already said that Mark wouldn't attempt it right away. As for the second paragraph, I didn't say that Mark would be at Saitama's mercy speedwise so I'd appreciate if you didn't straw-man me, I think I've made my stance on speed pretty clear.

If it isn't obvious at this point, I am arguing that Saitama will end this fight before Mark has the chance to even consider BFRing Saitama into space. So allow me to get right into proving that-

This argument goes against Saitama's own character development and morals the same way it would for Mark to just dump him in space the nanosecond the fight starts. The OP says 'serious and focused', not 'bloodlusted'. Saitama generally fights mysterious beings and every time he hits them this happens:

No Caption Provided

As far as I'm aware Saitama has never killed a human before. He isn't going to kick things off with a serious series or even an asteroid breaking hit if there's no way for him to know whether Mark will be killed by it. With that in mind, Mark is going to get hit several times before Saitama starts using his biggest shots which means he will have more than enough time to take this fight to the air if he didn't already. And to be honest, there's nothing that Saitama can do about it.

Physicals

Whilst your feats are certainly impressive your argument relies on a massive amount of underestimation on Mark's part. I also found that you misinterpreted one or two of my showings. Before I really get started I wanted to address a brief point you misunderstood.

The first thing that rubbed me the wrong way is how you presented Mark's feats. You showed Mark taking an explosion relative to a planetary size and then you show Mark tanking city busters?

I didn't say he tanked a planet bust. The three of them outraced the explosion. I said "What I want to highlight is the destruction they cause and tank as a result of entering and exiting the planet." Ergo, this:

No Caption Provided

And this:

Granted, I think the explosion is probably contributing here too
Granted, I think the explosion is probably contributing here too

Which I'd place solidly at continental. This is actually the exact same point I made the last time we tried this so it surprises me that this went over your head. With that in mind, this is actually a much better raw feat than anything you have going for you right now even if it was shared, not mentioning Mark increasing massively in power after this. I think it's important to place more emphasis on the durability needed to tank such an impact as thatisn't shared. To make this even better, Viltrum's gravity is 25% more than Earths as per The Official Handbook of The Invincible Universe #2 which would make it either denser than Earth, larger, or both. For further reference, the three Viltrumites involved in this (Thaedeus, Invincible and Omni-Man) were all killed by Thragg, or nearly killed in Mark's case and Mark was able to fight on par with him after his amp. Whilst this is Mark's highest end feat by far, it should demonstrate what the top end of his damage soak is.

Conceptually, this doesn't make much sense to me. What perplexes me even more is why you felt the need to present such feats against Saitama. Like, the Saitama that destroys a multi city level meteorite without breaking a sweat. As Genos himself notes, this meteorite would ravage several cities and Saitama explicitly negged its KE. Multi city level + striking power is something Saitama can do without any trouble, so I don't know why you brought these city busting feats up. That said, there seems to be two feats you are banking on, so I will get to them.

This is ironic given that your attempting to chastise me for showing city level feats with a continental one then proceed to counter with a city level feat... Regardless, Saitama isn't standing still and trading punches. He has time to brace himself and leap with allot of momentum assisting him with the punch...

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

He's traveling at high speed right before the impact so isn't representative of what he can do when spamming punches on a humanoid target. More to the point it was a lifeless object so holding back 90% of his power would make little sense in this context. It isn't enough to harm Invincible regardless.

Let the record show that despite those factors, this still appeared to be a very physically strenuous feat to accomplish. I am emphasizing this context because the damage done, at least visually, looks just over continent busting, the Viltrum core's destabilization doing the rest of the damage. Given that, can we really say that is enough to put down Saitama. After all, Saitama can tank the impact of his own jump, which created a country wide shockwave just through take off.

A country wide shockwave isn't the same as putting a crater in a planet larger than Earth the size of a continent... In truth I don't think that it's enough to beat Saitama if he's hit with something like that once, much less because Mark doesn't punch at the same level he bullrushes at. However, hit with repeated bullrushes whilst being batted around space whilst struggling to breathe? That should do the trick.

As a durability feat, this isn't enough to take Saitama's punches. Saitama's Serious Punch against Boros overpowered his planet surface busting CSRC attack with its shockwave. The DC of the shockwave then went on to disperse clouds on a multi continental scale near instantly:

I don't personally subscribe to the idea that Boros can wipe the surface of a planet just because he says he can (I'm open to other evidence if you have it). Specially when his next best feat is booting Saitama to the moon which is a mountain level feat. Even Tatsumaki (who's the next best thing behind Boros and Garou) doesn't have any feats registering over large mountain level, which even early Mark was surviving after being beaten to near death back when he couldn't even hurt normal Viltrumites. Heck, even Tech Jacket can tank a mound of Earth the size of a mountain (with a town on top of it) being thrown at him in Tech Jacket #10....

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

And Tech Jacket is nowhere near any of the more powerful Viltrumites, let alone post amp Mark....

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Issue's 27, 74 and 72 respectively

He got trashed by Omnipotus, who could hardly hurt Mark in Invincible #87 and ended up getting eaten by Dinosaurus after coming back more powerful than before. This is him trying to eat Thragg for reference. The other two Viltrumites are Anissa and Kregger who are around Mark's level prior to being amped wherein Zach needed saving in both fights. Regardless, unless you have some other source of reliable information aiding Boros I don't see why he should be taken literally. The feat here is dispersing the clouds, which whilst still good, Saitama charged back his hand and unleashed it. He isn't hitting Mark if he telegraphs his attack like that, and even if he does Mark has the durability to shrug off enough of them that he'll smarten up before he loses.

It should be clear that Saitama can quite easily blitz Mark and beat him into submission, at least from the feats presented. While I don't see Mark recovering from this blitz, I will indulge you and try and address Mark's proposed tactical edge:

Literally every single one of your feats involve Saitama winding his hand up or bracing himself for a leap. If he telegraphs his attacks like that he isn't going to hit Mark with them, much less when Mark is already fast enough to react to Saitama's quickest blows as well. Furthermore I know for a fact that you have nothing solid in your favour to suggest that Saitama can spam his most powerful hits like he can regular punches. The best punches he spammed were 'consecutive normal punches' which even Garou was able to more or less shrug off dozens of them...

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

I don't think any of those punches packed anywhere near the power Saitama used to leap from the Moon or destroy a Meteor even if he didn't name those attacks. Launching a barrage of punches isn't the same as winding back your fist and unleashing a bigger one, the latter being what Saitama needs to do to even harm Mark. I don't think Saitama is blitzing shit given that Mark is more than fast enough to react to him anyway.

This is hardly significant to Saitama. What you are illustrating in terms of environmental awareness is exactly what Saitama used against Monster Garou. Saitama lifted all of the rubble from the Monster Association HQ high into the air in order to capitalize on potential blindspots. This disoriented Garou and allowed Saitama to land a chain of punches.

Your emphasis on Invincible's tactics seems a bit exaggerated since Saitama isn't exactly lacking in that regard. At all.

I'm 90% sure both you and Garou are over-complicating what Saitama is doing which if I'm not mistaken is a running gag throughout OPM. Throwing rubble into the air isn't the same as knocking the wind out of someone then dragging them to space to choke them out. Not that the tactic needs to be complicated seeing as there's not much Saitama can do to stop it.

Overall

  • Mark is far faster than Saitama, so if things go sideways there's nothing to stop him from taking the fight to space or abusing the fact that Saitama needs to breathe and this is entirely in character for him
  • Whilst Mark doesn't throw punches the same way Saitama does, he's shown the capability to perceive and react to things that Saitama genuinely couldn't dream of matching
  • Mark has the feats to contend with Saitama in a slugfest regardless. He doesn't have the striking feats outside of scaling for me to argue him winning pound for pound, however his durability and bullrushing are integral parts of his fighting style that more than make up for that
  • Mark is bringing tactics that Saitama is drastically underprepared for. Mark is used to having to adapt his strategies to survive. whether that be biting throats out or abusing his flight and speed. Saitama is undisputably on the opposite end of that spectrum, ergo, you can only really debate for him winning in a straight slugfest. There's really no reason Invincible would let that happen.

Best of luck in your counter my friend

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Cool.

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defiant_will

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#24  Edited By defiant_will

Rebuttal | A Hero Nobody Knows

No Caption Provided

On Speed - Operational vs Combat

Reading through your arguments for Mark, it seems you are placing emphasis on how his raw/operational speed can minimize a blitz from Saitama with his combat speed. However, you'll find that reacting to and perceiving LS attacks holds little relevance when contextualized to Saitama blitzing Mark. Let me explain why:

I made careful mention to point out multiple instances of Mark moving at light speed whilst performing actions which clearly display that he can perceive things at such speeds and perform complex actions such as moving his limbs and body or scanning an entire planet. Ergo, he can still see and react to what Saitama is doing even if he isn't spamming the same number of punches.

Light speed perception was an aspect never contested on my end. Rather, it was an argument I deemed irrelevant. Mark perceiving light speed events doesn't invalidate the possibility of a blitz. Not to delve too deeply into semantics, but I feel it is important to remind you that to "perceive" an event simply means to:

"become aware or conscious of (something)"

To perceive something while getting blitzed aren't mutually exclusive factors. Not all blitzes happen at massively FTE speeds to the opponent. There are plenty of blitzes where the person getting blitz can still perceive their attacker, meaning they are aware of what attacks are being used, who is attacking them, etc. However, they still can't react to these speeds. Remember, reaction speed is a multi-step process:

  1. Perception (becoming aware or conscious of the event)
  2. Response (action made in response to said event)

Naturally, perception speed only accounts for the first step. I'm not fully sure if you recognize the difference here given how you keep bringing up FTL perception feats:

Like Conquest, who tracked a huge MFTL spaceship in Invincible #71 and destroyed the whole thing.

I think the fundamental problem here is that you are using passive actions like perception in order to set a basis as to how well Mark will perform in combat. I, for one, would call this argument into question. How would tracking a spaceship translate to a high speed combative scenario, one where you are arguing Mark dodging or blocking Saitama's blitz? To provide you with a visual, you are arguing that Mark would essentially be doing this as Saitama spams punches:

No Caption Provided

You have to realize that to pull this off would call for feats far more combat applicable than merely "tracking an MFTL spaceship." Like, say, reacting to an attack faster than Saitama's own attack speed. For the record, this-

Not only was he dodging punches from someone categorically capable of reacting to things faster than Saitama,

-doesn't cut it.

Dodging punches from a character that can react to faster things than Saitama? Where's the correlation there? Why are you conflating reaction speed and combat speed when I know for a fact you know the difference.

Even if Mark's peers can track FTL spaceships, and even if Mark himself has LS perception speeds. The fact still remains that these feats aren't game changing. Even if what they can perceive is faster than Saitama, simply perceiving Saitama doesn't mean that he can't blitz Mark. At the end of the day, Mark has nowhere near the raw movement speed (his FTL travel speed notwithstanding) to block or dodge Saitama's spam of punches, each one clocking in at tens of thousands of times faster than sound. Nor does he have combative showings that would imply he could bob and weave through such attacks. All he has going for him is perception speed, and that's not enough.

Speaking of, another thing that stuck out to me was this:

When two Viltrumite level beings clash they get sent flying then chase each other at high speed only for someone to be bashed in a different direction. They don't stand around smacking each other in the face really fast in a close space like in the world of OPM.

Yes, it would appear that Mark is very much accustomed to using his flight speed in tandem with his own striking power. However, by your own admission, Mark won't got for the whole bullrush blitz from jump. Meaning that Mark will have to make do with grounded combat, an area that Saitama has him beat in. How well will Mark be able to keep up in straight close quarters? His combat speed is nowhere near Saitama's level and you've only shown perception speeds to his name. I am of the opinion that the result is the same as I said in my opener. Saitama is going to blitz Mark. Perception speed doesn't mean anything if you don't use it in battle, which you haven't shown Mark doing.

Saitama's Character

I didn't expect this to come up as a point of contention, mainly because I assumed we were on the same page. But I suppose I was wrong. Bagel, I spent the opening section of my opener talking about Saitama's mindset in this battle. Talking about how serious he will be. And your counter to that is insituating that Saitama will still hold back?

As far as I'm aware Saitama has never killed a human before. He isn't going to kick things off with a serious series or even an asteroid breaking hit if there's no way for him to know whether Mark will be killed by it. With that in mind, Mark is going to get hit several times before Saitama starts using his biggest shots which means he will have more than enough time to take this fight to the air if he didn't already. And to be honest, there's nothing that Saitama can do about it.

I don't understand the train of thought behind this. When arguing about the morality of a character, I think it is far more telling to analyze their overall moral compass instead of looking at their kill count. Saitama isn't pitted against humans very often so to compare his monster kills to his human ones isn't the most fair. Even keeping his own character in mind, this analysis is unfair. If Saitama is underwhelmed by Monster King Orochi's Awakened Form, why would he even bat an eye at people like Hammerhead or Sonic? When Saitama isn't serious, he doesn't take humans anywhere near as seriously as monsters, and even then, he doesn't take the monsters seriously.

However, I doubt that a serious Saitama would have any problem killing his opponent, human or monster. Even since BoS, Saitama has had no problems with turning a humanoid Mosquito girl into a blood splatter. When a giant monster quite literally squished his human brother to death by accident, Saitama was smiling:

One Punch Man: Chapter 3
One Punch Man: Chapter 3

Saitama clearly isn't your typical superhero. He isn't focused on saving as many lives as he can or fighting for some noble cause. He is a "hero for fun." In that same chapter, Saitama destroys an entire populated city and his reaction is:

Note that there were efforts to evacuate the city, but it is doubtful EVERY SINGLE citizen escaped the city before Saitama destroyed it. The timefram was ridiculously small
Note that there were efforts to evacuate the city, but it is doubtful EVERY SINGLE citizen escaped the city before Saitama destroyed it. The timefram was ridiculously small

If this response strikes you as someone that is going to pull his punches against a "human" foe, even when said foe is literally trying to kill him, then I don't know what else to tell you.

Physicals: Tanking Mark's Punches

Well, as usual with a battle of bricks, this is the meat and potatoes of this debate. You made some interesting points for Invincible, but your counters to Saitama were nothing short of misguided and misinformed.

For Mark, you emphasized this showing:

No Caption Provided

As Mark's best in offensive output. I don't understand why you keep pushing this feat:

  1. This was a shared feat. As in three, physically comparable Viltrumites bullrushed the planet at the same time
  2. All three of them had to fly and accelerate at top speeds to pull this off

These two major factors makes it unlikely that Mark himself can strike this hard, and it makes it even more unlikely that he will be landing several blows of this magnitude. I mean even with two other Viltrumites helping him, Mark still had to go all out to accomplish this. Let's even look at the scan again:

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The feat for Mark you showed was actually from Space Racer's blast destabilizing the core. I mean this should be obvious. The first panel, we see the blast get into the core. Then we see it trigger a massive explosion. And then the next scan, at the top of the planet, we see the after effects of that explosion. So not only did Mark have help from two other Viltrumites, but he also was aided by Space Racer's blast. All of that help, in addition to accelerating at top speed... just to create a continent sized crater.

Clearly, when it comes to durability, I don't think that Mark is bringing anything Saitama can't handle. Let it be known that Saitama's jump actually did leave a country sized crater on the moon, and that was just through takeoff:

No Caption Provided

Saitama no sold the impact of his jump as well. You seem to agree that Saitama wouldn't be put down by one of these bullrushes, but you claim that several should do the trick? You think Mark can spam bullrushes of this level continuously? This scan should've made it pretty damn clear how physically strenuous this was for Mark.

Did Mark get an amp? Yes. But you do a terrible job quantifying it:

For further reference, the three Viltrumites involved in this (Thaedeus, Invincible and Omni-Man) were all killed by Thragg, or nearly killed in Mark's case and Mark was able to fight on par with him after his amp.

So Mark fighting on par with someone who previously "nearly killed" him is suppose to be game changing? I mean this feat alone calls into question how strong Mark is individually, so being vaguely stronger than that Mark isn't much to go by at all.

At the end of the day, you can't really quantify how hard Mark hits. The best, continent feat you showed is riddled with context that undermines Mark's own strength. At bare minimum, he is sub continent level, but it is likely that he is far below that given how much help he got. And that is w/ a top speed bullrush, not exactly something that he can spam in combat.

Physicals: Putting Mark Down

Alright this is what I was referring to when I said your counters were misinformed. You showed that Mark had continent level durability, a claim I'd question the consistency of since the other durability feats you've shown for him are city level... as orders of magnitude below continent level. I would like to see some justification for that line of reasoning.

Anyway, the problem actually comes with how you address Saitama's striking. Like this:

I don't personally subscribe to the idea that Boros can wipe the surface of a planet just because he says he can (I'm open to other evidence if you have it).

This isn't an argument, so I don't know why you bothered putting this in your post. Boros was quite explicit in saying he would destroy the planet's surface, and as someone who has a history of laying waste to planets in the past, this holds canonical weight. I know CV has this "feats>statements" mentality, but this is too far. Unless there are some feats that contradict Boros' most powerful attack wiping the planet's surface, then any counters are pretty much moot.

Specially when his next best feat is booting Saitama to the moon which is a mountain level feat. Even Tatsumaki (who's the next best thing behind Boros and Garou) doesn't have any feats registering over large mountain level, which even early Mark was surviving after being beaten to near death back when he couldn't even hurt normal Viltrumites. Heck, even Tech Jacket can tank a mound of Earth the size of a mountain (with a town on top of it) being thrown at him in Tech Jacket #10....

LMAO.

Ahem.

Forgive me if I find your comparison of Tatsumaki to Boros to be quite amusing. On a serious note, this argument is clearly ridiculous. For starters, we have no point of reference of how Tatsumaki compares to Boros, so using her to lowball him makes no sense. If anything, Boros should be tiers above Tatsumaki. On that note, why bring up Tatsumaki? Her fighting style is completely different from Boros' own. I was going to contest Tatsumaki only being large mountain level, but I don't even need to do that. Why would I need to justify the strength of someone weaker than both Boros and Saitama? You are grasping at straws, and it shows.

The feat here is dispersing the clouds, which whilst still good, Saitama charged back his hand and unleashed it. He isn't hitting Mark if he telegraphs his attack like that, and even if he does Mark has the durability to shrug off enough of them that he'll smarten up before he loses.

The feat is dispersing clouds... while also overpowering a surface wiping attack. If you are going to contest Boros' DC, you need valid reasoning. Not just "well he was probably exaggerating so let's ignore it." As for Saitama, I never really subscribed to the whole "Saitama can't spam powerful punches." I mean after overpowering Boros, Boros was left like this:

No Caption Provided

In part because Boros expended all of his energy, leaving him a lifeless husk. Now, compare that to Saitama's Consecutive Punches:

No Caption Provided

Boros was literally turned to fishpaste and would have died that way if not for his regen. I think it is pretty clear that Saitama is more than capable of spamming his powerful punches. And that's of course ignoring Boros' statement. He said Saitama wasn't even fazed, meaning that it makes no sense for him to have to put all of his power into one strike. That power is far from his limit and a serious Saitama should easily be able to dish out blows of that caliber.

Furthermore I know for a fact that you have nothing solid in your favour to suggest that Saitama can spam his most powerful hits like he can regular punches.

Well... you were wrong. Saitama pasting Boros proves that. His serious punch at least left Boros' body in tact and it was his loss of energy that partially contributed to his defeat. Saitama's punch spam turned Boros to mush, with Boros needing his regen to bounce back.

The best punches he spammed were 'consecutive normal punches' which even Garou was able to more or less shrug off dozens of them...

This proves nothing. I already showed Saitama spamming his punches against Boros, so that's wrong. Two, Saitama is soo inconsistent with how he treats monsters. Some take multiple strikes, so get pasted right away. Such is Saitama's nature as a character, as expressed in his fight scenes. So Garou shrugging off those punches doesn't mean anything.

Conclusion

My stance remains unchanged. Saitama blitzes Mark and beats him down with his striking power. Mark has no feats so suggest he can put Saitama down besides an FTL bullrush that is hard to chain mid combat and would likely wouldn't even be thought of before it is too late. You are also banking on tactics for some reason, which is weird cause I also provided tactical feats but it is an exaggeration... just because?

I'm 90% sure both you and Garou are over-complicating what Saitama is doing which if I'm not mistaken is a running gag throughout OPM. Throwing rubble into the air isn't the same as knocking the wind out of someone then dragging them to space to choke them out. Not that the tactic needs to be complicated seeing as there's not much Saitama can do to stop it.

Oh? You think the manga itself isn't credible with this statement? Any proof, maybe some statements or anything? No? Just a hunch? Figured.

By the way, Saitama being overestimated isn't a running gag in OPM lmao. What manga have you been reading. Saitama is underestimated, hence the irony of him being a low class hero despite his immense strength. Also, bullrushing someone into space because they can't breath is nowhere near as tactical as creating blindspots to circumvent a skill disadvantage, which is exactly what Saitama did.

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#26  Edited By Wesat

TAEP