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#1 Edited by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

Combatants:

Red Hulk/Thaddeus Ross (The_Red_Devil)
Red Hulk/Thaddeus Ross (The_Red_Devil)
No Caption Provided
Hercules Panhellenios (blackspidey2099)
Hercules Panhellenios (blackspidey2099)

Battle Conditions:

  • Both characters are in character/morals on.
  • The battle takes place on an uninhabited, indestructible planet.
  • Victory by death/incap/KO.

General CaV Rules:

  • Since this is a CaV, it is just a one-on-one debate on which character would win this battle. Please refrain from posting your opinion on who would win until the battle is complete. Other comments are fine, however.
  • Ask to be tagged, or simply comment "T4V" if you'd like to be tagged when voting commences. When voting, vote for who you think gave a better argument or represented their character better, NOT who you personally think is more powerful. Also, please give a brief justification for why you chose the person you did. Your vote might not be counted if you do not justify it.
  • Enjoy the debate! :)

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#2 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by The_Red_Devil (4966 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by Thedailybagel (12895 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#5 Edited by deactivated-5c917f846ef0b (1264 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#6 Edited by Kevd4wg (12798 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

What is it with TRD and loving inconsistent characters

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#7 Posted by blackpantherisb (7262 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#8 Posted by Supermanthor (20297 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

Online
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#9 Posted by Darth_Nimrod (2770 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#10 Posted by deactivated-5cc073360931e (791 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#11 Edited by Rac95 (4749 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V and after every post please

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#12 Posted by phillip33 (4280 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#13 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#14 Posted by King-Ragnar (4201 posts) - - Show Bio

Smh

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#15 Posted by Ouroborik (3624 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#16 Edited by Subline (8424 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Devil succ

Seriously tho, Good Luck to both.

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#17 Edited by The_Red_Devil (4966 posts) - - Show Bio

The Big Sexy :

No Caption Provided

Bio :

Thaddeus "Thunderbolt" Ross is former U.S. military general. He is father of Bruce Banner's love Betty Ross and was archenemy of the Incredible Hulk. Ross made a deal with villains to be transformed into a Hulk himself.He was transformed into the Red Hulk and unlike the Green one , even in his Rulk form , Ross can retain his intelligence and consciousness.

Powers and Abilities :

  • Super Strength.
  • Super Durability.
  • Intelligent (Ross's intelligence).
  • Top level Military tactician.
  • Skilled fighter.
  • Thunderclap.

Strength/Striking:

He is clearly one of the physically strongest people on Earth-616.(Well , I am aware Hercules is too , but Rulk isn't far behind.

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Hulk Vol 3#26

He one-shotted a large comet that was heading towards Earth.

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Fall of Hulks : Red Hulk #1.

He easily tears open a thick reinforced steel door in an A.I.M facility with ease.

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Avengers #28

He's broken free from Magneto's metal restraints , just after he was hit by P5 Magik and multiple Optic Blasts from P5 Cyclops through multiple buildings.

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Hulk Vol 3 #1

He's beaten Abomination , a Savage Hulk level character (Might be a bit under him).He simply stomped Abomination with ease and also broke his skull in the process.

Rulk easily KO'ed She Hulk in Hulk Vol 3 #2.

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Hulk Vol 3 #4

After Savage Hulk stops him from punching the Watcher , he puts him down with a tackle , holds him that position and then drains him.(Notice how he holds him down before beginning the drain).(His skill is also showcased here , by the fact that he tackles Hulk and holds him down).

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Hulk Vol 3 #26

After taking multiple hits from Worthy Thor , he just stops one of Thor's hits.(This is clearly a great feat).

Durability :

His durability is pretty impressive as well , add in his healing factor , which isn't at par with Green Hulk , but is still pretty impressive in itself.

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Hulk Vol 3 #27 - #28

He tanks multiple blows from Namor underwater without damage as his greatest concern was getting air.(This is a time when Namor was a solid low-high tier even outside water).(This wouldn't have been a good feat if it was Post-Aaron Namor , but it is from before Namor become jobber).

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Hulk Vol 3 #30.1

Tanks being hit by a huge Air-to-Air missile and a fall from the cloud levels.(The second pic should be ahead of the first one , eh).

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Hulk Vol 3 #2 and Hulk #25-6

He's tanked uni beams from Extremis Iron Man and an a number of attacks Bleeding Edge Iron Man ,two of Iron Man's most powerful armours.

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Hulk Vol 3 #8

Takes a mountain level punch from She-Hulk , being choked with Thundra's chains by She-Hulk and being stabbed in the chest by Valkyrie and just fakes to be being ko'ed.(Not only good durability but also tactics , how he fakes being ko'ed.

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Hulk Smash Avengers #5

Tanks multiple attacks from the likes of Sentry , Wonder Man , Ares and smiles.(He does get hurt which is made clear by the blood , but the bottom line is he takes all that with a smile).

Conclusion :

Well , I established that Rulk's strength/striking is on the level of high-high-tiers and he is pretty durable as well , add in the fact that he uses his skills and tactics in his fights.I know Hercules is pretty strong , but Rulk is just strong enough to contend with him and as for Herc's skill advantage , I think that Rulk himself is pretty skilled and tactical and might be able to contend with Herc just fine. Rulk's durability and healing is something Herc can have a lot of trouble with , Rulk can take a lot of beating which means Herc can't put him down super easy and Rulk can take advantage of this and start dropping his hits which should be able to put Herc down.

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#18 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4966 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Rac95 (4749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Toratorn (7273 posts) - - Show Bio

@rac95 said:

T4V and after every post please

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#21 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (4933 posts) - - Show Bio

t4V

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#22 Posted by Battle123axe (9053 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#23 Edited by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules Panhellenios: God of Heroes

"Verily, it is time for some righteous smiting." - Hercules

The First Hero: Bio

Hercules was born of Zeus, the god of the sky and the Skyfather of Olympus, and a mortal woman. Even as a child, his incredible strength gained him fame and glory, culminating in his completion of 12 epic labors. Disaster soon fell, though, as Hercules was slain by his wife in a fit of jealousy, due to his many consorts with other women. As he lay dying, his father Zeus freed his immortal spirit from his mortal body, making him an immortal god of Olympus. The rest is history (or, more aptly, mythology). In modern times, Hercules has returned to Earth as a hero, fighting valiantly alongside comrades such as Thor, Hulk, and Amadeus Cho. Additionally, he's been a valued member of multiple teams of superheroes, most notably the Avengers and the Champions, and has helped saved the world over 30 times - and even singlehandedly saved the universe from destruction at the hands of his stepmother, Hera. However, his love for alcohol and revelry has always held him back from receiving the status he deserves as one of Earth's Mightiest Heroes. To change that, Hercules has begun a new phase of his life - one in which he plans to remain sober as he saves the world. Hercules was already the archetype for the modern hero - what more will he achieve once he actually puts his mind to it?

Thor & Hercules: Encyclopaedia Mythologica
Thor & Hercules: Encyclopaedia Mythologica

Prince of Power: Stats

Strength:

This is one area I think Herc takes a comfortable majority over Red Hulk in, especially in raw lifting strength - considering he has three quantifiable planetary strength feats, from three separate time periods.

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  • Scan 1: Back in mythological times, Hercules temporarily relieved Atlas of his burden, holding up the planet for him (Thor Vol. 1 #356).
  • Scan 2: During classic comics, the mere shockwaves caused by Hercules and Thor arm-wrestling were enough to knock a planet out of orbit (Thor Vol. 1 #400).
  • Scans 3 - 5: During modern comics, Hercules and Sunspot were able to output force equivalent to that required to hold up the Earth. The reason I mainly attribute this feat to Hercules is because Sunspot was clearly struggling (based on his facial expression as well as his speech patterns) while Hercules wasn't particularly strained (Avengers #688/689).

If the battle comes down to a grapple, Hercules should have no issue overpowering Rulk.

His striking is equally impressive, and more than enough to overwhelm Rulk's damage soak (though I guess that's what we're going to debate).

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  • Scan 1: Hercules states he's leveled mountains due to mere insults (Sleepwalker Vol. 1 #27).
  • Scan 2: Hercules exactly matches the striking power of Thor, closing a wormhole with the impact of both their fists colliding (Avengers Vol. 1 #100).
  • Scans 3 - 5: Hercules one-shots Abomination casually, albeit with the aid of a metal pole of some sort (Hercules Vol. 3 #3).
  • Scan 6: A bloodlusted Hercules completely pulverizes Wonder Man (most of the battle happened off-panel), and then slams a large piece of debris down on his head (Incredible Hercules #113).

I think Hercules' striking matches, if not exceeds, both what Rulk is capable of and what he's managed to tank from other characters he's fought.

Durability:

While Hercules' durability isn't quite commensurate with his strength, it should still be more than enough for him to tank Red Hulk's hits.

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  • Scan 1: Hercules literally no-sells and laughs off a blow from a pissed off Namor, calling it a "feeble tap" (The Avengers Vol. 1 #262).
  • Scans 2 - 3: Hercules easily tanks being hit with the Washington Monument (which weighs over 81,000 tons) like a baseball bat by Atlas, bearer of the heavens (Incredible Hercules #124).
  • Scans 4 - 6: An already grievously injured Hercules manages to survive a couple hits from a pissed off Zeus (The Avengers Vol. 1 #285). Hercules had been beaten into a coma, and Zeus blamed the Avengers and wanted to take out his anger on them - even being willing to kill them. When Hercules woke up, he tried to talk some reason into his father, leading to the above events. This is extremely impressive, especially considering how Zeus has beaten down top tier threats like Green Scar Hulk with his bare hands (Incredible Hulks #622).

With that said, Rulk can definitely do some damage to Hercules. However, I don't think he has what it takes to put the Prince of Power down.

Speed:

I really doubt this battle will come down to any sort of speed difference, but I'll give a couple showings here for Herc just in case. I do believe Hercules is notably faster than Rulk anyways, though they'll both probably just brawl in this battle.

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  • Scan 1: Hercules tags Classic Quicksilver too fast for him to dodge (The Avengers Vol. 1 #38).
  • Scan 2: A mind-controlled Hercules tags Current Quicksilver mid-run with a ranged attack (Secret Empire: Underground #1).
  • Scans 3 - 6: Hercules completely humiliates Sentry (and Mac Gargan Venom), catching him mid-bullrush multiple times, catching his fist in mid-air, and all around manhandling him (Incredible Hercules #128). This is also an impressive showing in terms of strength as well as all-around general combat prowess.

Like I said, I doubt this will be a critical aspect of the battle. However, it is most certainly yet another aspect in which Hercules holds the edge over Rulk.

Pankration Prowess: Skill

This section may seem only mildly relevant, but considering that Herc actually does use his skill in battles, even when fighting bricks/high tiers (as I'll showcase more of later), this may actually end up being an important advantage for Hercules in this fight.

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  • Scans 1 - 2: Hercules and Theseus invented their own martial art, the Pankration (Herc #1).
  • Scan 3: Hercules, using a combination of his great skill and strength, fodderizes the Thing in under a page (Hulk vs Hercules: When Titans Collide #1).
  • Scans 4 - 5: While depowered, Hercules' skill alone was enough for him to briefly keep up with the ninja warrior Elektra (Herc #10). An impressive showing, to say the least.

I know Rulk isn't a completely unskilled fighter, but I highly doubt he can compare to Hercules, one of the greatest warriors of his time. At least, none of the feats you've posted so far place Rulk's skill in the same echelon as Hercules'.

Lion of Olympus: Combat Showings

I've already showcased some aspects of Hercules' best battles earlier in my post, but I'd like to finish off by showing a few more examples of how all aspects of Herc's power work well and enable him to best his foes in combat - which, after all, is the most important aspect of this CAV.

To start off, I'd like to present Hercules' showing against the Thor clone, Ragnarok from Civil War #7:

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Civil War #7

This fight perfectly shows how deadly Hercules' striking can be in battle, as he takes Ragnarok - a solid mid-tier at the very least - out with just a couple hits, reducing him to nothing more than scrap. While Rulk is probably more durable than Ragnarok is, I think this shows he'll be really feeling Hercules' attacks.

My next showing is going to be Hercules' fight against the Skrull God Kly'bn, who had conquered the pantheons of nearly a thousand worlds beforehand.

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Incredible Hercules #120

This fight exemplifies a lot of Hercules' qualities in action - his durability (tanking both Ajak's and Kly'bn's eyebeams), his strength (near the end where he lays the beatdown on Kyl'bn), and even his speed/skill, as she dodges attacks and out-maneuveurs Kly'bn. And although Kly'bn doesn't have very many feats to scale from, his implied threat level is made clear by the fact that he has conquered the immortal pantheons of nearly a thousand worlds. A very impressive feat, even if not the most quantifiable.

To switch gears a bit, let's see how Hercules does against a brick like the Hulk, in one of his more powerful incarnations: The Mindless Hulk from The Incredible Hulk #300. This was an iteration of the Hulk that was completely free from the influence of Bruce Banner, and could damage adamantium as well as go against a whole team of Avengers (including Thor not holding back). He was so unstoppable that the only recourse was for Dr. Strange to teleport him away. And yet, Hercules was more than capable of holding his own against this incarnation of Hulk.

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Hulk vs Hercules: When Titans Collide #1

This fight is impressive for multiple reasons - first and foremost being that it shows Hercules using his skill to his advantage against a brick as powerful, if not moreso, than he is. If he can do so against the Mindless Hulk, he should have no issue using his skill against Rulk. Furthermore, the ending of the battle is pretty impressive for Hercules as well. Despite being deafened by the sonic booms from Hulk's thunderclap, Hercules' punch stops Hulk's attack cold, sending shrapnel scattering back at Hulk with such force that Hulk is forced down his knees in pain. If that wasn't enough, he casually takes out Ares with a single hit right after. Overall, a very impressive showing for the Prince of Power - one which I struggle to see Red Hulk being able to replicate, especially since Hulk was likely using his full power in this battle, as his brain had been tampered with and he was unable to hold himself back in the same way Amadeus Cho theorized he normally does (Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #110).

Well, no list of Hercules combat showings would be complete without at least one of his fights against The Mighty Thor - one of the best being the battle between Thor and a drunken Hercules.

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Thor: Blood Oath #3-4

Despite being completely drunk before the battle even begun, Hercules shows equal, if not better endurance to Thor himself, getting up from the shockwave of their colliding punches first and putting Thor in a chokehold - which in itself is impressive, as not everyone can match Thor's striking power. Herc also one-shots a mountain earlier in this battle (scan 3). This is also yet another instance of Hercules using his skill against high tier opponents, which I think should be enough to prove it's at least somewhat consistent for him to do so. In fact, I'd say Hercules has the upper hand throughout the entire fistfight, up until Thor breaks out his lightning powers to get Hercules off him. If he can perform this well while drunk, he can do even better while fully sober - especially against an opponent who is neither as powerful nor as versatile as Thor is.

The final combat showing I'll be discussing in this post is one in which Hercules came out as the loser - his battle against World War Hulk/Green Scar Hulk:

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The Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #107

Despite his "loss", I still think this battle was an extremely impressive showing for Hercules. Going chronologically, he manages to physically stop one of Green Scar's blows, before then tanking the follow-up hit. Even more impressive, he managed to completely floor Green Scar and draw blood with just a single hit, which I'd wager means Hercules was holding the advantage at that point in their battle (scan 3). Of course, Hulk quickly regains the advantage (partly due to his superior damage soak, and partly because Hercules did not want to fight). Still, taking another two point blank hits from the Green Scar directly to the face is very impressive for Hercules.

The major reason I bring this up is because it allows for a direct comparison between Hercules and Red Hulk, who also went up against the Green Scar.

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Hulk Vol. 2 #24

Both Hercules and Red Hulk take an L against Green Scar, but that's about all these 2 fights have in common. As I said, Hercules gave a good account of himself, taking a brief advantage in the battle early on and tanking 3 direct hits to the face. On the other hand, Red Hulk needs to amp himself (and weaken Green Scar) by absorbing Banner's power, and still fails to do any damage to Hulk, who taunts him, completely unharmed. To add insult to injury, the weakened Green Scar casually dispatches an amped Red Hulk with nothing more than a thunderclap, not even a direct strike. And this was written by Jeph Loeb of all people!

Looking at these two fights side by side, the difference between Hercules and Red Hulk is the difference between a potential rival to Hulk (as acknowledged by Bruce Banner himself in Hercules: Fall of an Avenger #1) and complete fodder to Hulk. I'm not a Rulk expert, so while I won't yet go so far as to say that that's how large the difference between Herc and Ross is consistently, I do think Hercules holds the edge in all areas of this battle.

Concluding Thoughts:

So, I think that should sum it up. Hercules has an edge in all aspects of this battle with the exception of regeneration, and I've yet to dig deep into all his showings, or his willingness to fight dirty to gain a further advantage during battle. That's why I find it hard to believe Hercules can lose this battle. With that said, I also have several problems with some of the showings you used for Red Hulk, but I'll refrain from countering your feats till my next post (for the interests of both time as well as to keep a level playing field). Good luck with your next post, and may the best brick win!

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#24 Edited by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Battle123axe (9053 posts) - - Show Bio

very nice

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#26 Posted by skywalker95 (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#27 Posted by skywalker95 (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

Great Intro TRD

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#28 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4966 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2 :

No Caption Provided

Counters :

It's time for some good old counters , lets begin ,

  • Scan 1: Back in mythological times, Hercules temporarily relieved Atlas of his burden, holding up the planet for him (Thor Vol. 1 #356).
  • Scan 2: During classic comics, the mere shockwaves caused by Hercules and Thor arm-wrestling were enough to knock a planet out of orbit (Thor Vol. 1 #400).

Those are some solid strength feats , both should be easily planet level , that second one even counts as a feat for Thor. I have no argument here these are solid feats.

  • Scans 3 - 5: During modern comics, Hercules and Sunspot were able to output force equivalent to that required to hold up the Earth. The reason I mainly attribute this feat to Hercules is because Sunspot was clearly struggling (based on his facial expression as well as his speech patterns) while Hercules wasn't particularly strained (Avengers #688/689).

This is also a good feat , but this is a shared feat nevertheless , even if you say Hercules did most of the job , you need to atleast give some credit to Sunspot (Like 70% of the force was given by Hercules and 30% by Sunspot).

Speaking of Sunspot , well

No Caption Provided

Thunderbolts Vol 2 #31

Here Rulk isn't even bothered by Sunspot's punch and one-shots him with ease. Also note that this is after Punisher stabbed Rulk with a special Vibranium knife that reverted him back to Ross , even though he was able to Hulk-out after 30 seconds or so , he wasn't able to fully turn into Rulk (Which is pretty clear from the looks of the scan , he was just half transformed). So basically even a weaker Rulk was unfazed by Sunspot's hit and could one-shot him with ease. As your scan showed Sunspot was able to help Hercules hold the weight of the planet , which means he is quite impressive in terms of stats (Like High Mid Tier) and he was one-shotted by a weakened Rulk.

Another instance from the same issue ,

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Thunderbolts Vol 2 #31

The same weakened Rulk kinda no-sold a few hits and heat vision from earth-13034 Hyperion.

If the battle comes down to a grapple, Hercules should have no issue overpowering Rulk.

I do see Hercules's advantage in terms of raw strength , but he will have atleast some trouble overpowering Rulk if it comes down to grapple. Rulk was easily able to pin down and hold an opponent like Savage Hulk (before draining)(Hulk Vol 2 #4) and stop a hit from Thor with his bare hands (Hulk Vol 2 #26).

There is also this feat ,

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Hulk Smash Avengers #5

After Ares,Wonder Man and Sentry drop hits on him and hold him for Ares to drop more hits , he just overpowers Sentry and Wonder Man and throws them aside with ease.

So I don't think Hercules can overpower him with "easily" , like he will definitely have problem overpowering him.

  • Scans 3 - 5: Hercules one-shots Abomination casually, albeit with the aid of a metal pole of some sort (Hercules Vol. 3 #3).

Rulk took out Abomination with just three shots and his bare hands , even cracked his skull with the final punch. Rulk feat is just a "bit" more impressive considering he did it with his bare hands and cracked his skull in the process. (Abom was in a near death state).

I will provide more feats for Rulk's striking later in this post , which will put him above Hercules.

I really doubt this battle will come down to any sort of speed difference, but I'll give a couple showings here for Herc just in case. I do believe Hercules is notably faster than Rulk anyways, though they'll both probably just brawl in this battle.

Speed really isn't an issue in this fight , because neither Rulk or Herc fight at high speeds , this fight will be a brawl and might involve some skill-showing in between.

This section may seem only mildly relevant, but considering that Herc actually does use his skill in battles, even when fighting bricks/high tiers (as I'll showcase more of later), this may actually end up being an important advantage for Hercules in this fight.

I agree Herc is the more skilled fighter of the two , but Rulk isn't unskilled either , since Ross retains his consciousness and intelligence in his Rulk form , he does use his skills in fights with other characters. Ross has top tier military training and he has used it in his fights , although he isn't as skilled as Herc , he should be able to atleast hold fair against him. I will also demonstrate his skills later in this post.

  • Scan 3: Hercules, using a combination of his great skill and strength, fodderizes the Thing in under a page (Hulk vs Hercules: When Titans Collide #1).

That's a good feat , but Thing isn't the most skilled of opponents either , Rulk is definitely a lot more skilled than Thing.

  • Scans 4 - 5: While depowered, Hercules' skill alone was enough for him to briefly keep up with the ninja warrior Elektra (Herc #10). An impressive showing, to say the least.

In Thunderbolts Vol 2 #31 (Link) , when Punisher stabbed Rulk with the special vibranium knife and turned him back into Ross , Frank and Ross fought in H2H combat. The fight lasted for a few pages , and even after Frank broke Ross's right arm , Ross was able to put down Frank for some time. This should a solid showing considering Frank is a decently skilled fighter.

This fight perfectly shows how deadly Hercules' striking can be in battle, as he takes Ragnarok - a solid mid-tier at the very least - out with just a couple hits, reducing him to nothing more than scrap. While Rulk is probably more durable than Ragnarok is, I think this shows he'll be really feeling Hercules' attacks.

Well , Ragnarok was just a mid-tier and Rulk has tanked hits from The Thing who is a solid High Mid Tier ,

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Hulk Vol 2 #19

He tanks hits from The Thing with not much issue , note in the third scan how he casually moves Thing away and holds his head while explaining him the entire situation. It's clear from his facial expression that he wasn't much bothered from Things hit. He didn't even want to fight Thing , he was there to help him and there is a clear statement(Scan 3) that he could have snapped Thing's neck or broken his back if he wanted to , which is clear indication that he could have destroyed Thing if he wanted too.

Well, no list of Hercules combat showings would be complete without at least one of his fights against The Mighty Thor - one of the best being the battle between Thor and a drunken Hercules.

Well definitely a solid showing for Hercules , but Thor looked like he wasn't fighting all serious for the most part either. Rulk has faced Beta Ray Bill and Thor.

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Annihilator Earthfall #2

Most of this fight happens off panel , on page 9 we see Rulk hitting Bill and on page 12 we see Bill dropping two shots on him and saying "this one's proving difficult" , which clearly means they had been fighting fair and they couldn't put each other down. Bill getting hurt by a single hit from Rulk and then stating "this one's proving difficult" after having fought for a while , just shows how good Rulk is , this also shows he is durable enough to take hits from the likes of Beta Ray Bill.

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Hulk Vol 2 #26

Tanks a barrage of attacks from Worthy Thor , who wasn't exactly holding back (Since he was still pissed off about his previous loss to Rulk , which happened because of Rulk's energy absorption) , Thor dropped around 8 hits , 3 of them using Mjolnir and 1 lightning amped shot , which is quite a lot coming from someone like Thor. Thor was able to draw blood from him in Scan 2 , but even then Rulk was able to stop the next hit from Thor , this just shows how good Rulk's durability and damage soak is. After that lightning amped hit ,

No Caption Provided

Even that lightning amped hit from Thor couldn't keep Rulk down , because just after that Rulk drops a punch on Thor and draws blood from him , and after they stop on seeing Galactus (Which was a hologram) , Rulk looks just fine.

To draw a summary from the two fights I showed , it's clear that Rulk fought fair against Beta Ray Bill and was able to take a barrage of hits from a pissed of Thor (Who used Mjolnir and lightning) and stand up just fine. Both Bill and Thor had their respective hammers in their fights and used them in the fight against Rulk too , which makes these feats more impressive. Herc's fight with Thor was pretty awesome , but Thor didn't use Mjlonir and only used his lightning in the end , but in the fight with Rulk he was using Mjolnir to drop many of the hits. Even after all the hits and that lightning amped hit , Rulk still able to fight and dropped a punch on Thor and drew blood from him. Hercules was hurt from Thor's lightning was unable to stand back up for atleast some time.

These two scans clearly show how good Rulk's durability and damage soak is against Top High Tier guys like Thor and Bill.

complete fodder to Hulk.

That's the mother of all low-balling , like seriously.

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Hulk Vol 3 #10

Doc Green and Rulk's first fight lasted for around 8 pages. Doc Green is a bit weaker than Savage/Mindless Hulk , but is much much more intelligent. In this fight not only does Rulk tank multiple hits from Doc Green , after the hits he just gets up and destroys Doc Green , breaks his arm and the beating is so bad that Doc Green had some trouble getting back up. Even after Doc Green escapes to his lab , Rulk basically destroys the lab and badly hurts Doc Green in the process. Rulk even displays a bit of skills in Scan 4,5,6 , by hitting Hulk in particular body parts and then getting him in a hold and breaking his arm.

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Hulk Vol 3 #14

His second fight with Doc Green. Although Doc Green was getting more hits and had the upper hand for the first 3 scans , Rulk got eventually got the upper hand after the first 3 scans , and at last reverted Doc Green into Banner form with his last hit. This fight shows how good his durability and damage soak are. Another thing from that fight is that , their fight shook up all of America and Vision stated that there was "seismic activity" , which clearly shows the intensity of this fight. The fact that Rulk knocked Doc Green back into Banner is very impressive.

Now you might say Doc Green ain't that strong , but in the issues prior he was laughing of hits from Red She Hulk , Skaar and A-Bomb and even went on to beat A-Bomb and an Abomination clone while holding back. Now both A-Bomb and Skaar are solid Low High Tier characters and smiling from their hits definitely means that Doc Green is kinda above Low High Tier.

If that's not good enough for you , Rulk even fought Savage Hulk without draining for a several pages in Hulk Vol 2 #11

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Hulk Vol 2 #11

The fight begins in Page 4 and continues upto page 16 , most of the fight happens off-panel since the narration cuts of to the other 3 fights that were also taking place in that issue. In the pages in which we see the fight , it seems that they are fighting fair and Rulk tanks several hits from Hulk as-well. Rulk eventually gets the upper hand by taking Namor's Trident (Neptune's trident , call it whatever you want to , lol) from Hulk and stabbing him in the process and killing him.(Don't worry , he was revived the very next issue). This is clearly one of Rulk's best feat since not only holds fair against Savage Hulk , but even manages to kill him (Although he couldn't do it under his own power , so he used the Trident).

This fight is easily as good as Herc fighting Mindless Hulk , if not better. Rulk fought fair for a sometime , before killing him (You can keep the 'killing' part out because it happened mainly because of Rulk taking the trident away from Hulk and using it). Even then fighting fair with Savage Hulk is a very very impressive feat , since Savage Hulk is a solid High Tier character.

As I said, Hercules gave a good account of himself, taking a brief advantage in the battle early on and tanking 3 direct hits to the face. On the other hand, Red Hulk needs to amp himself (and weaken Green Scar) by absorbing Banner's power, and still fails to do any damage to Hulk, who taunts him, completely unharmed.

That's not entirely true , firstly Rulk wasn't able to drain him properly. I say that because , when Rulk drained other characters before(Like Savage Hulk , Surfer , Terrax and Thor) , he drained them almost instantly and took them out , two of them were cosmic powered characters. But in Green Scar's case , although Rulk was draining , it didn't have any significant effect on Green Scar , but in the previous cases Rulk basically took out Surfer,Terrax and Savage Hulk , by just draining them almost instantly.This makes it clear that Rulk wasn't able to drain Green Scar properly.

Secondly Rulk was overheating , which is made pretty clear by just seeing the scans you provided and basically Rulk gets hotter with his increasing anger (Stated in Hulk Vol 2 #6) , and in this fight Rulk was hell-bent on beating Green Scar and was going all crazy about it , add in the fact that She-Hulk took out Red-She Hulk , and seeing Betty get taken out Rulk got even angrier , which means he got even hotter. Getting hotter also makes him weaker , as seen in Hulk Vol 2 #6 , Savage Hulk was casually able to take out an overheating Red Hulk with one-shot.

There were many factors to Rulk's loss in the hands of Green Scar. Rulk not only was unable to drain properly , he was getting hotter , which means he was only getting weaker , so it was easier for Green Scar to beat him and take his blow. You might argue Rulk overheating against Hercules , but Rulk has not been shown to overheat after that fight with Green Scar and the two occasions on which he overheated were both against Hulk , his hatred for Hulk made him angrier in the fights and caused him to overheat. This is simply not happening while fighting Hercules.

So , I just showed how Rulk has clearly held his own against the like of Doc Green and Savage Hulk , which clearly means that he isn't 'fodder' to Hulk. He has also held fair against the likes of Thor and Bill. I also proved how Rulk's loss to Green Scar was due to other factors , such as his overheating. So it isn't any good Scaling Herc's performance against Green Scar to Rulk's performance against Green Scar.

The fact that Rulk has , no sold hits from High Mid Tiers like Thing , Hyperion , etc. and taken hits from the likes of Bill , Thor and Hulk , make me believe that he should do well against Hercules hits as well , even if he gets hurt , he has shown damage soak that suggest he should be able keep fighting just fine. I already stated in this post that although Rulk isn't as good as Hercules in terms of raw strength , but Hercules won't be able to overpower him with ease , Hercules will definitely have trouble overpowering Rulk.

Some More Striking Feats :

Let's see some more feats ,

In addition to one-shotting Comets with ease , one-shotting Sunspot , She-Hulk , cracking Abomination's skull , taking out Doc Green ,

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  • Scan 1 : Hurts Beta Ray Bill with a single hit , Bill later admitted that Rulk was a difficult fight for him.(Annihilators Earthfall #1).
  • Scan 2 : Draws blood from Thor with a single hit. (Hulk Vol 2 #26).
  • Scan 3 : His fight with Doc Green already shook up all of America , by creating seismic activity. In the next issue it is shown that his hits were powerful enough to shake up all of America and cause 'unnatural seismic' , and could be even felt in Mole Man's Kingdom which is deep below the surface of the Earth. (Hulk Vol 3 #15).
  • Scan 4-5 : Takes out a Watcher with a single hit. (Hulk Vol 2 #4).
  • Scan 6-7 : A single punch from him creates a Magnitude 10.0 Earthquake , that punch damaged Hulk's holding cell which was a long distance below the Surface. Magnitude 10.0 quakes have never occurred , but has been calculated to be around 9 times stronger than a 9.0 Earthquake. Creating an Earthquake like that with a single punch is much above continent level , in terms of striking.

These are some solid feats , along with the one's I already posted , they should suggest that Rulk's striking should be at par with Hercules if not above. Chances are his striking is above Hercules , and he can hurt Herc with his hits.

Conclusion :

Well , in this post I established how good Rulk's durability is and that he should be able to tank hits from Hercules , pretty well and even in the case he gets hurt I have shown his damage soak will allow him to keep fighting. Hercules does have a slight advantage in Raw strength , but Rulk is quite strong himself , so Hercules will have problems to overpower him if it comes down to a grapple. Hercules's striking is very impressive , but I think Rulk's is slightly better and should be enough to hurt Hercules and eventually put him down. The last factor in this fight will be skill , although Hercules is more skilled , Rulk is also a very skilled and tactical opponent and I have given multiple feats were Rulk used his skills and strategies in a fight (Like his fight against Doc Green , or how he stopped Thing from attacking him and moved him away by holding his head , when he tackled Savage Hulk and got him into a look before draining him in their first fight and Ross himself held fair against Punisher in a H2H fight). Some of the feats I gave also showed how Rulk uses different tactics in fight , like

  • When he acted like he was taken down just to fool She-Hulk, Thundra and Valkyrie.
  • Used nearby boulders to shit Doc Green and stop him from hitting him with that injection.
  • Took the Trident away from Hulk , so that he could kill him.

These suggest that Rulk can use different kinds of tactics in a fight to gain upper hand as well.

This fight will be a brawl , but Rulk should be able to tank hits from Hercules pretty fine and he could hurt Hercules with his hits and use nearby object or his tactics to do even more damage to Hercules. Hercules can use his skills in order to put down Rulk , but considering Rulk is also decently skilled , it won't be that easy for him.

To draw a conclusion Rulk's superior Striking , durability and damage soak is what will give him the win , add in the fact that he is decently skilled and a very good tactician. Hercules only has a slight advantage in terms of Raw Strength and Skill , which isn't that big a gap either.

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#29 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4966 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Subline (8424 posts) - - Show Bio

Bait

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#31 Edited by Toratorn (7273 posts) - - Show Bio

So many desinformation and out of context scans...

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#32 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4966 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn said:

So many desinformation and out of context scans...

Says a guy who puts Thing on Herald level.

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#33 Posted by Toratorn (7273 posts) - - Show Bio
@toratorn said:

So many desinformation and out of context scans...

Says a guy who puts Thing on Herald level.

Ooooooh, look who's got on defensive all of a sudden, even though I specify who I was talking about. Also, your memory must be acting up, since I don't even do that. And even if I did, that has no relevance to you blatantly using scans out of context.

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#34 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4966 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn said:
@the_red_devil said:
@toratorn said:

So many desinformation and out of context scans...

Says a guy who puts Thing on Herald level.

Ooooooh, look who's got on defensive all of a sudden, even though I specify who I was talking about. Also, your memory must be acting up, since I don't even do that. And even if I did, that has no relevance to you blatantly using scans out of context.

Out of context really ? Why do you say that ?

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#35 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16810 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh lovely stuff. TAEP

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#36 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

The scans are not out of context.

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#37 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4966 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by Toratorn (7273 posts) - - Show Bio

Out of context really ? Why do you say that ?

Because some of these scans are out of context and don't depict what you claim? That should be pretty damn obvious.

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#39 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4966 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn said:
@the_red_devil said:

Out of context really ? Why do you say that ?

Because some of these scans are out of context and don't depict what you claim? That should be pretty damn obvious.

Keep your views to yourself for now , no one really cares about what you say either.

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#40 Posted by Toratorn (7273 posts) - - Show Bio

Keep your views to yourself for now , no one really cares about what you say either.

Oooooooh, someone is mad that he's being called out on his BS.

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#41 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4966 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by skywalker95 (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

Great post TRD

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#44 Edited by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2: Counters and Rebuttals

"My purpose is to find the misery in this life... to find despair, wherever it may hide... and as best as I can, to crush it." - Hercules

Rebuttals:

Tanks a barrage of attacks from Worthy Thor , who wasn't exactly holding back (Since he was still pissed off about his previous loss to Rulk , which happened because of Rulk's energy absorption) , Thor dropped around 8 hits , 3 of them using Mjolnir and 1 lightning amped shot , which is quite a lot coming from someone like Thor.

It would be good if Thor was going all out, but there's context. The entire fight started because Thor pretended to think Rulk was evil so he could attack Rulk, even though he knew Rulk was on his side the entire time. Thor was essentially fighting Rulk for fun, not due to any serious beef. Due to that, I doubt Thor was really going all out.

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Hulk Vol. 2 #26

He was clearly toying with Rulk, and not seriously trying to defeat him or anything like that. He knew he'd need to work with Rulk after the fight was over, so he obviously wouldn't want Rulk to be too incapacitated to fight.

Doc Green and Rulk's first fight lasted for around 8 pages. Doc Green is a bit weaker than Savage/Mindless Hulk , but is much much more intelligent. In this fight not only does Rulk tank multiple hits from Doc Green , after the hits he just gets up and destroys Doc Green , breaks his arm and the beating is so bad that Doc Green had some trouble getting back up. Even after Doc Green escapes to his lab , Rulk basically destroys the lab and badly hurts Doc Green in the process. Rulk even displays a bit of skills in Scan 4,5,6 , by hitting Hulk in particular body parts and then getting him in a hold and breaking his arm.

I want to set one thing straight here: Doc Green < Savage Hulk < Mindless Hulk in terms of stats/power. Other than that, this is a solidly impressive fight for Rulk, but there is one mitigating factor in that the entire fight was planned out by Doc Green - as has been stated multiple times both by narration and on panel.

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Hulk Vol. 3 #11; Hulk Vol. 3 #14

As such, we have to keep in mind that Doc Green wasn't exactly fighting at his best during the battle.

His second fight with Doc Green. Although Doc Green was getting more hits and had the upper hand for the first 3 scans , Rulk got eventually got the upper hand after the first 3 scans , and at last reverted Doc Green into Banner form with his last hit. This fight shows how good his durability and damage soak are. Another thing from that fight is that , their fight shook up all of America and Vision stated that there was "seismic activity" , which clearly shows the intensity of this fight. The fact that Rulk knocked Doc Green back into Banner is very impressive.

Right before Rulk and Doc Green fought in Hulk Vol. 3 #14, Rulk was camping out at Yucca Mountain, where he had limitless access to radiation which he could absorb and use to get stronger. Before the scans you showed, Deadpool shot him with a bullet meant to temporarily stop him from absorbing anymore radiation - however, there's nothing to imply that it negated the radiation he already had in his body (if it did, it would have cured Rulk). As such, he would have had greater than normal levels of radiation in his system during the fight, amping him to beyond normal levels.

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Hulk Vol. 3 #13

It makes sense he was amped, since he was able to do as well, if not even better, against Doc Green in this battle than in the prior battle they had (turning him back into Banner with a hit vs breaking his arm) - despite Doc Green having improved himself by studying Iron Fist's chi moves (Hulk Vol. 3 #12). To make the feat even less impressive, Rulk gets completely trashed when Doc Green stops trying to be calm and lets his anger loose:

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Hulk Vol. 3 #15

Overall, a summary of the fight is that an amped Rulk does well against a sub-Savage Hulk level opponent, but then gets trashed by an angry Doc Green. We don't know if angry Doc Green is more powerful than Savage Hulk or not, since this is the only time he got angry, so I won't hold the last part against Rulk. However, the fact that Rulk had juiced up on radiation before the fight began means that most of his feats during the battle aren't relevant to this CAV, since there's no radiation to juice up on here.

If that's not good enough for you , Rulk even fought Savage Hulk without draining for a several pages in Hulk Vol 2 #11

The fight begins in Page 4 and continues upto page 16 , most of the fight happens off-panel since the narration cuts of to the other 3 fights that were also taking place in that issue. In the pages in which we see the fight , it seems that they are fighting fair and Rulk tanks several hits from Hulk as-well. Rulk eventually gets the upper hand by taking Namor's Trident (Neptune's trident , call it whatever you want to , lol) from Hulk and stabbing him in the process and killing him.(Don't worry , he was revived the very next issue). This is clearly one of Rulk's best feat since not only holds fair against Savage Hulk , but even manages to kill him (Although he couldn't do it under his own power , so he used the Trident).

This is kinda misleading for a couple reasons. First, Hulk didn't even want to fight Rulk, and he was more intent on trying to convince Rulk to team up with him rather than actually fight Rulk. On the other hand, Rulk was completely raged and bloodlusted.

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Hulk Vol. 2 #11

Secondly, this Hulk wasn't even Savage Hulk, as you can tell based on his dialogue. In fact, this Hulk was similar to Professor/Merged Hulk, or other incarnations with Banner's brain inside Hulk's body - the same Hulk that appeared in stories all the way back when he was in love with Jarella.

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Hulk Vol. 2 #10

Since this Hulk has appeared before, we can look at his past appearances to gauge his power level. Quite conveniently, this "intelligent" Hulk actually fought his Savage incarnation, due to a machine that forced him to face his greatest fear. I'll post the relevant context below:

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The Incredible Hulk Vol. 1 #156

Despite theoretically being equally strong to "base" Savage Hulk, the Intelligent Hulk gets completely wrecked by Savage Hulk due to his lack of anger amps, as well as being less ferocious in battle. Clearly, for any practical measure, the Intelligent Hulk is far less effective than his Savage counterpart. As such, Rulk beating him isn't anything impressive. It's just yet another instance of Rulk beating a weakened Hulk.

This fight is easily as good as Herc fighting Mindless Hulk , if not better. Rulk fought fair for a sometime , before killing him (You can keep the 'killing' part out because it happened mainly because of Rulk taking the trident away from Hulk and using it). Even then fighting fair with Savage Hulk is a very very impressive feat , since Savage Hulk is a solid High Tier character.

It's true that Herc vs Mindless Hulk was just a draw with a slight edge to Herc, while Rulk straight up beat the Intelligent Hulk. However, Intelligent Hulk <<< Savage Hulk < Mindless Hulk, so I don't think it's a fair comparison whatsoever.

That's not entirely true , firstly Rulk wasn't able to drain him properly. I say that because , when Rulk drained other characters before(Like Savage Hulk , Surfer , Terrax and Thor) , he drained them almost instantly and took them out , two of them were cosmic powered characters. But in Green Scar's case , although Rulk was draining , it didn't have any significant effect on Green Scar , but in the previous cases Rulk basically took out Surfer,Terrax and Savage Hulk , by just draining them almost instantly.This makes it clear that Rulk wasn't able to drain Green Scar properly.

Just because Rulk wasn't able to drain all of Green Scar's power doesn't mean he wasn't able to drain at least some of it. If he hadn't drained any of Green Scar's power, don't you think Rulk would have said something other than "I am the strongest there is" and assuming he had killed Banner? Clearly, he felt that it had worked, so he must have felt that he was absorbing energy from Green Scar. There are other, much more plausible, explanations for why Green Scar wasn't taken out instantly - like the fact that his healing factor might have mitigated the effects of being drained, or his anger increased his strength back up even after being drained, or even that he's too powerful for Rulk to remove any significant amount of his power. On the other hand, there's absolutely nothing suggesting that the drain didn't work whatsoever.

Secondly Rulk was overheating , which is made pretty clear by just seeing the scans you provided and basically Rulk gets hotter with his increasing anger (Stated in Hulk Vol 2 #6) , and in this fight Rulk was hell-bent on beating Green Scar and was going all crazy about it , add in the fact that She-Hulk took out Red-She Hulk , and seeing Betty get taken out Rulk got even angrier , which means he got even hotter. Getting hotter also makes him weaker , as seen in Hulk Vol 2 #6 , Savage Hulk was casually able to take out an overheating Red Hulk with one-shot.

Once again, I disagree. Rulk was not overheating in this battle. The reason I say that is because, every time Rulk overheats, he gets visibly weaker and even mentions the fact that he's feeling so hot/dizzy. Here are some examples:

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Hulk Vol. 2 #6; Hulk Vol. 2 #28; Hulk Vol. 2 #22

Every time he overheats, it leaves him so weakened that he can barely stand, let alone fight. On one occasion, he even turns back into Ross due to overheating. This clearly doesn't happen in his fight against Green Scar, however. After absorbing Green Scar's strength, he clearly feels more powerful than ever, as can be seen when he screams that he is "the strongest there is". A weakened person who is barely able to stand wouldn't be doing that, for obvious reasons.

The fire around Rulk was just artistic effect. Even in the previous issue, whenever Rulk drains someone, we see flames around him, despite clearly not being weakened at all. We can see this when he drains the Cosmic Hulk Robot, Leader, and even a Talbot LMD:

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Hulk Vol. 2 #23

Unless you think Rulk overheated himself 3 times in the same comic, despite showing no indication of being weakened, I think we can accept that the flames are just an artistic rendition of Rulk's draining powers in action, and nothing more than that.

As such, I maintain that Rulk was not overheating against Green Scar, and hence wasn't weakened.

So , I just showed how Rulk has clearly held his own against the like of Doc Green and Savage Hulk , which clearly means that he isn't 'fodder' to Hulk. He has also held fair against the likes of Thor and Bill. I also proved how Rulk's loss to Green Scar was due to other factors , such as his overheating. So it isn't any good Scaling Herc's performance against Green Scar to Rulk's performance against Green Scar.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to say that Rulk was fodder to Hulk in general - just that he was fodderized by Green Scar Hulk specifically. Considering I proved that Rulk wasn't weakened/overheating against Green Scar, I think my point still stands. Herc was shown as a near-equal to Green Scar, while Rulk was fodderized. It really shows the disparity between the two characters.

In Thunderbolts Vol 2 #31 (Link) , when Punisher stabbed Rulk with the special vibranium knife and turned him back into Ross , Frank and Ross fought in H2H combat. The fight lasted for a few pages , and even after Frank broke Ross's right arm , Ross was able to put down Frank for some time. This should a solid showing considering Frank is a decently skilled fighter.

That's a fair enough showing, but really nothing comparable to what I've shown for Herc IMO. Ross lasted a few pages against Punisher, but it was made clear that Frank was going to win either way.

Well definitely a solid showing for Hercules , but Thor looked like he wasn't fighting all serious for the most part either.

Maybe at the beginning, but later into the fight, Thor says he will remind Hercules about his godly heritage or die trying. The fact that he's willing to die in the battle definitely suggests that he isn't holding back.

Thor: Blood Oath #3
Thor: Blood Oath #3

Strength Comparison:

He's broken free from Magneto's metal restraints , just after he was hit by P5 Magik and multiple Optic Blasts from P5 Cyclops through multiple buildings.

This is impressive I guess, even though the strength of Magneto's metal restraints can be kinda inconsistent.

After Savage Hulk stops him from punching the Watcher , he puts him down with a tackle , holds him that position and then drains him.(Notice how he holds him down before beginning the drain).(His skill is also showcased here , by the fact that he tackles Hulk and holds him down).

Rulk had Savage Hulk on his back for a couple of panels on the last page at best, before Hulk punched him into the air. I hardly find that impressive when compared to Herc's showings against more impressive incarnations of the Hulk, like Mindless/Green Scar. It's an alright skill feat, but I don't think it's impressive as a strength feat for someone on Rulk's tier.

This is also a good feat , but this is a shared feat nevertheless , even if you say Hercules did most of the job , you need to atleast give some credit to Sunspot (Like 70% of the force was given by Hercules and 30% by Sunspot).

That's fair.

After taking multiple hits from Worthy Thor , he just stops one of Thor's hits.(This is clearly a great feat).

I already showed that Thor wasn't serious during this battle in my rebuttals section.

Furthermore, Thor casually overpowered Rulk a couple pages after what you showed. Rulk surprised Thor and got both of his arms in a hold while Thor was toying with him, but Thor had absolutely no issues freeing himself without breaking a sweat. Clearly, Thor is stronger than Rulk.

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Hulk Vol. 2 #26

I do see Hercules's advantage in terms of raw strength , but he will have atleast some trouble overpowering Rulk if it comes down to grapple. Rulk was easily able to pin down and hold an opponent like Savage Hulk (before draining)(Hulk Vol 2 #4) and stop a hit from Thor with his bare hands (Hulk Vol 2 #26).

I'm glad we can come to a consensus on this. However, I do think it will be easier for Herc to overpower Rulk than you claim, considering my counters for both of your main strength feats for Rulk.

Herc's Striking vs Rulk's Durability:

He tanks multiple blows from Namor underwater without damage as his greatest concern was getting air.(This is a time when Namor was a solid low-high tier even outside water).(This wouldn't have been a good feat if it was Post-Aaron Namor , but it is from before Namor become jobber).

I don't see how Namor was a solid low-high tier outside the water at the time these issues were published. According to the Marvel Wiki, Hulk Vol. 2 #28 was published in February 2011. Just a year later, Namor lost to the Thing underwater, in AvX: Versus #1 which was published in June 2012. In fact, they had another good fight just a month later, in Uncanny X-Men Vol. 2 #12, published in July 2012. While Ben is decently powerful himself, I've already shown how well Hercules does against Ben. I find it finny that you say this wouldn't have been a good feat if it was post-Aaron Namor, when Namor's recent appearances in Aaron's Avengers Vol. 8 (where he stomped Thor, Captain Marvel, She-Hulk, and Iron Man at the same time underwater) far outstrip anything he did in the early 2010s.

Tanks being hit by a huge Air-to-Air missile and a fall from the cloud levels.(The second pic should be ahead of the first one , eh).

I think the feats from my opener are more than good enough to show Herc hits massively harder than missiles. Just look how casually he destroys a heavily armored SHIELD helicarrier right after no-selling the missiles it fires:

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The Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #107

He's tanked uni beams from Extremis Iron Man and an a number of attacks Bleeding Edge Iron Man ,two of Iron Man's most powerful armours.

I don't think Extremis Iron Man was using his unibeam in that scan, but other than that, these are fine feats. However, Iron Man was mainly using energy attacks in those two battles, which means that they aren't that relevant in a battle against Hercules, who uses solely physical attacks. Either way, Iron Man's attack power is nothing compared to Hercules' power. For a relevant comparison, let's look at how they both fared during the Marvel event Secret Invasion.

I already showed how Hercules defeated the Skrull god Kly'bn within the span of a couple pages, quite easily. On the other hand, Iron Man needed to amp himself up with the power of two nuclear power plants and channel all of that energy into a unibeam attack just to defeat two Super-Skrulls.

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New Avengers: Illuminati Vol. 2 #5

Although neither those specific Super-Skrulls nor the Skrull god Kly'bn have any feats of their own, I'm sure you'd agree that Kly'bn was implied to be much more powerful, by virtue of being their literal god. Despite that, Hercules had an easier time defeating Kly'bn than Iron Man did against two Super-Skrulls, considering that he needed an external amp to do so.

Takes a mountain level punch from She-Hulk , being choked with Thundra's chains by She-Hulk and being stabbed in the chest by Valkyrie and just fakes to be being ko'ed.(Not only good durability but also tactics , how he fakes being ko'ed.

That's a pretty good tactic to use in a fight, I can admit. However, I don't think She-Hulk's punch was anywhere near mountain level; it just took a small part of the mountain off (the head sculpture). It's probably large building level at best. Even though he was faking being knocked out, there's nothing to suggest that he wasn't grievously hurt - if he hadn't been hurt at all, why even bother pretending to be unconscious? He only used that strategy so he could reclaim the element of surprise, since he was currently losing the advantage in the battle.

She-Hulk's striking isn't anywhere near Hercules'. A good comparison would be how She-Hulk performed against Abomination when they fought:

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She-Hulk Vol. 2 #15

As you can see, most of her punches barely even manage to hurt Emil. To take him out, she had to use cheap shots and pressure points, as she put it herself. On the other hand, Herc casually one-shotted Emil.

Despite She-Hulk being tiers below Herc in terms of striking, she was still having no no issue hurting Rulk with her strikes, and drawing blood.

Hulk Vol. 2 #9
Hulk Vol. 2 #9

If She-Hulk can draw blood so easily, just imagine how much damage Herc's (far more powerful) hits will do to Rulk!

Overall, it's a solid feat, but being notably injured by a bunch of solid mid tiers isn't nearly enough to take on Hercules.

Tanks multiple attacks from the likes of Sentry , Wonder Man , Ares and smiles.(He does get hurt which is made clear by the blood , but the bottom line is he takes all that with a smile).

This is extremely impressive at first glance, but there's some context in that Sentry, Wonder Man, and Ares were all being written at a much lower level in this issue than they normally are. I mean, just a couple pages after the scans you posted, they all get taken out by Red Hulk throwing a random missile at them:

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Hulk Smash Avengers #5

Even Ares, the weakest out of those three, can normally eat attacks like missiles for breakfast. Here's an example of him no-selling a missile explosion in his own series:

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Dark Avengers: Ares #2

Considering that all the characters Rulk was going against in Hulk Smash Avengers #5 were being portrayed at a far lesser level than they normally are, I don't think that his feats against them are all that impressive when you consider all the context to that issue.

Here Rulk isn't even bothered by Sunspot's punch and one-shots him with ease. Also note that this is after Punisher stabbed Rulk with a special Vibranium knife that reverted him back to Ross , even though he was able to Hulk-out after 30 seconds or so , he wasn't able to fully turn into Rulk (Which is pretty clear from the looks of the scan , he was just half transformed). So basically even a weaker Rulk was unfazed by Sunspot's hit and could one-shot him with ease. As your scan showed Sunspot was able to help Hercules hold the weight of the planet , which means he is quite impressive in terms of stats (Like High Mid Tier) and he was one-shotted by a weakened Rulk.

Yeah, you're missing out on a bit of context here. Sunspot's powers were amped ever since he contracted the M-Pox in New Avengers Vol. 4 #4. Essentially, since the M-Pox, whenever he uses his powers, they're always on overdrive, at such a high level that his body can't regulate the amount of energy he channels. Every time he uses his powers, the energy burns through his body, taking literal years away from his lifespan.

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New Avengers Vol. 4 #17; U.S.Avengers #8

This would obviously put his powers at a way higher level than before they went on overdrive. The fight between Sunspot and Red Hulk in Thunderbolts Vol. 2 #31 actually occurred before New Avengers Vol. 4 #4, where Sunspot contracted the M-Pox, so it's not representative of current Sunspot's power levels.

Also, is there any statement from the comic that states Rulk was weakened? I wasn't able to find anything after a quick skim through, so I'd like some actual proof that it isn't just your head-canon.

The same weakened Rulk kinda no-sold a few hits and heat vision from earth-13034 Hyperion.

I wouldn't call that "no-selling" Hyperion's hits. It's fair enough to say Rulk tanked them, but AFAIK, Hyperion doesn't have many impressive striking feats that compare to Hercules.

Well , Ragnarok was just a mid-tier and Rulk has tanked hits from The Thing who is a solid High Mid Tier ,

He tanks hits from The Thing with not much issue , note in the third scan how he casually moves Thing away and holds his head while explaining him the entire situation. It's clear from his facial expression that he wasn't much bothered from Things hit. He didn't even want to fight Thing , he was there to help him and there is a clear statement(Scan 3) that he could have snapped Thing's neck or broken his back if he wanted to , which is clear indication that he could have destroyed Thing if he wanted too.

I'm not sure why you're comparing Ragnarok's durability with Thing's striking power. Anyways, Ragnarok is most certainly on Ben's level in terms of physical stats, as seen considering he could take hits from the likes of Juggernaut and Mr. Hyde:

Dark Avengers #182
Dark Avengers #182

In terms of Rulk taking hits from Ben, that's fine and all but I still don't think it's too impressive compared to Herc's striking power. Ben, as well as Grey Hulk and Nova (Sam Alexander), have all had trouble inflicting any damage on Giganto, one of the Mole Man's most powerful creatures:

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The Amazing Spider-Man #692; Fantastic Four #348; Nova Vol. 6 #4

All three of those characters are solidly impressive mid-tiers, no doubt. However, Hercules is on another level in terms of striking strength, as we can see when he casually steamrolls through not just one, but an entire pack of Gigantos:

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Hercules Vol. 3 #4

I also don't think Rulk tanked Ben's hits as easily as you claim; as he says himself, he "took a beating from the Thing".

Hulk Vol. 2 #19
Hulk Vol. 2 #19

He tries to make the excuse that absorbing the negative zone energy weakened him, but that's demonstrably contradicted on panel, so we can ignore that part. On panel, Rulk only started absorbing the negative energy after they stopped fighting. He even says that he "never absorbed anything like it" before, right before he starts absorbing it.

Hulk Vol. 2 #19
Hulk Vol. 2 #19

Overall, if you want to show that Rulk can tank Herc's hits, you'll need to show some better feats. Because Herc far outclasses everything you've shown so far.

Anyways, taking hits from mid-tiers is hardly impressive for Rulk. For example, Noh-Varr has some pretty similar feats. Here, he fights Namor (albeit out of the water) and takes a couple good hits:

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New Avengers: Illuminati #4

He also manages to humiliate Ms. Marvel:

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Ms. Marvel Vol. 2 #35

Despite all that, Herc casually one-shots him.

Incredible Hercules #128
Incredible Hercules #128

Now, don't get me wrong, Rulk is a definitely more durable than Noh-Varr. However, if you want to show that he can withstand Herc's hits, you're going to need to show better feats than Rulk taking hits from mid-tiers like Namor, She-Hulk, and pre-amp Sunspot.

Rulk took out Abomination with just three shots and his bare hands , even cracked his skull with the final punch. Rulk feat is just a "bit" more impressive considering he did it with his bare hands and cracked his skull in the process. (Abom was in a near death state).

I don't see how Rulk's feat is more impressive. Herc knocked Abomination out with a single hit, so he presumably could have killed him with three. He's not a villain though, so he didn't go that far. The only mitigating factor is that he used some sort of metal pole, but considering that Abomination is far more durable than the steel is, I doubt it made much of a difference. Once again, I also have no idea why you compare Rulk's striking against Herc's striking. It's nearly irrelevant. What matters is comparing Rulk's striking to Herc's durability, and vice versa.

Since I already explained that Thor was holding back against Rulk and toying with him, the best durability feat you showed for Rulk was taking a couple hits from Beta Ray Bill (which I didn't address above since I didn't have any issues about it). I don't think I need to post any more feats to prove that Herc can easily output that level of power himself. I've also shown that Hercules hits far harder than a lot of people who've already put the hurt on Rulk, like Iron Man, She-Hulk, and Thing. Overall, it's clear that Herc should have few issues overcoming Rulk's damage soak.

Herc's Durability vs Rulk's Striking:

He one-shotted a large comet that was heading towards Earth.

Impressive, but mostly unquantifiable since I have no idea how large the comet was.

He's beaten Abomination , a Savage Hulk level character (Might be a bit under him).He simply stomped Abomination with ease and also broke his skull in the process.

Want to know who's one-upped that feat and one-shotted Abomination (other than Herc himself, that is)? Well, it was Thor - without even needing to use Mjolnir, no less.

Thor Vol. 1 #178
Thor Vol. 1 #178

I already showed one instance of Herc easily tanking Thor's hits during their fight, but that's far from their only fight. They've fought at least 5/6 times throughout the eras, as I'm sure you're aware, so I think Hercules being able to tank Thor's hits is as consistent as it gets.

Rulk easily KO'ed She Hulk in Hulk Vol 3 #2.

I find this to basically be a less impressive version of what Rulk did against Abomination, since Abomination has always had better stats than She-Hulk. Anyways, I will come back to why Herc can tank this amount of force in a bit.

on page 9 we see Rulk hitting Bill

I'm sure you'd agree with me that there doesn't seem to be any sort of noticeable or permanent damage to Bill after that hit, so I don't find this feat impressive at all for a high tier character like Rulk. It seems more like he took Bill by surprise than that he severely injured Bill.

Even that lightning amped hit from Thor couldn't keep Rulk down , because just after that Rulk drops a punch on Thor and draws blood from him , and after they stop on seeing Galactus (Which was a hologram) , Rulk looks just fine.

I've already explained why Thor was just toying with Rulk. Furthermore, once again, I don't think Rulk's hit really did anything notable to Thor. The instant after Banner drops the Galactus hologram, we see Thor looking unhurt while Rulk is heavily bruised and still bleeding - despite having a healing factor of his own.

Hulk Vol. 2 #26
Hulk Vol. 2 #26

Scan 6-7 : A single punch from him creates a Magnitude 10.0 Earthquake , that punch damaged Hulk's holding cell which was a long distance below the Surface. Magnitude 10.0 quakes have never occurred , but has been calculated to be around 9 times stronger than a 9.0 Earthquake. Creating an Earthquake like that with a single punch is much above continent level , in terms of striking.

If you mean that creating a Richter 10.0 Earthquake is continent busting in terms of striking, that's ridiculous and nowhere near being true. Ignoring that, this is still impressive for Rulk. I plugged this into a calculator to get an approximate value of the energy released by a Richter 10.0 earthquake in megatons of TNT:

No Caption Provided

As we can see, that's approximately 10^10 tons of TNT (ie. 10 gigatons of TNT or 10,000 megatons of TNT).

Now, who's another character with similar striking feats? Surprisingly enough, classic Iron Man. When going all out, his strikes were involved in busting a mountain with just the shockwaves of his fight (alongside the Thing) against the Blood Brothers.

Marvel Feature Vol. 1 #12
Marvel Feature Vol. 1 #12

Just a couple years later, Hercules fought classic Iron Man and laughs off what Iron Man terms as "his strongest blows".

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The Avengers Vol. 1 #163

These blows must be as strong, if not stronger, than the strikes that were causing mountains to be leveled with just the shockwaves of his hits in the previous scan. Now, how much energy does it take to level a mountain? Well, some people did some calculations on how much energy would be required to destroy Mount Everest if it were made of soil, and they arrived at 20,000 megatons of TNT. Obviously, the mountain in the scan was probably smaller than Mount Everest, but it also was made of something a lot more durable than soil (ie. rock), so overall I think 10,000 to 20,000 megatons is a fair estimate. That's very comparable to the power behind Rulk's punch. And Hercules just casually tanked those attacks. As such, I don't believe Richter 10.0 level strikes are strong enough to do significant damage to Hercules in this battle.

Coincidentally, the repulsors which Herc casually tanked in that fight were more than enough to one-shot She-Hulk while Tony was holding back, just a couple years later in Marvel Super Hero Contest of Champions #2. I remember you using that as an impressive feat for Rulk, but unless She-Hulk was amped since the time of this issue, it probably isn't on Herc's level. I know that I commonly say that energy durability =/= physical durability, and I want to assure you that I'm not being a hypocrite here. Iron Man's repulsors are commonly referred to as concussive attacks with a physical force behind them, despite their appearance of being like a laser. Here's a scan of Tony saying so himself:

No Caption Provided

I think that's as clear an explanation as you can get.

Scan 3 : His fight with Doc Green already shook up all of America , by creating seismic activity. In the next issue it is shown that his hits were powerful enough to shake up all of America and cause 'unnatural seismic' , and could be even felt in Mole Man's Kingdom which is deep below the surface of the Earth. (Hulk Vol 3 #15).

In my opinion, this is the best striking feat you've shown for Rulk so far. I did mention how Rulk was amped due to absorbing radiation prior to this fight in an earlier section, though.

Anyways, even if we take this feat at face value for Rulk, Hercules has taken hits from people who can do better, like the Mighty Thor.

An example would be Thor's battle with his equal Red Novell. Just the mere shockwaves of their battle shake and nearly destroy all of Asgard, from the main city all the way to the Rainbow Bridge.

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Thor Vol. 1 #478

Why is that impressive? Well, it is clearly stated that in the comics, Asgard is roughly the size of the United States (Guidebook to the Marvel Cinematic Universe: Marvel's Thor). I think that nearly destroying a planet the size of the US as a side effect outshines simply causing seismic activity across the US, meaning that Thor hits harder than Red Hulk.

Most importantly, Thor was using nothing but his fists in this fight - he never strikes Red Novell once with Mjolnir - similar to how he fights against Hercules.

Thor has another similar collateral damage feat against Beta Ray Bill, where both of them are completely unarmed.

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Thor Vol. 1 #339

The mere shockwaves of their clash topple mountains and level the landscape around them in an awesome display of sheer destructive power. Their clash is so powerful that it literally sets their surroundings ablaze, emitting a blinding blast of energy at the end. I think that's far above amped Rulk vs Doc Green. And yet, all of Herc's fights against an unarmed Thor have ended with them on even ground because Herc doesn't have much trouble tanking hits of this caliber.

Heck, although Herc's arm-wrestle with Thor is mainly impressive as a strength feat, you can think of it as durability as well. Herc is durable enough to casually tank Thor pushing down on him with enough force to shatter entire plateaus and move the planet.

Scan 4-5 : Takes out a Watcher with a single hit. (Hulk Vol 2 #4).

Oh come on, you and I both know this is a gigantic outlier, to the point that it is one of the main examples called out when people are discussing the whole "Loebforce Rulk" meme. I'd rather not have to resort to either lowballing Rulk or highballing Herc to counter ridiculous feats like this, so I won't for now. I hope you agree to concede this feat as an outlier in your next post. If you maintain that it is consistent for Rulk, I will be forced to post anti-feats for Rulk in order to prove that this isn't remotely consistent.

Overall, I think I've shown Herc taking impacts that were directly comparable, if not better than, what you've shown Rulk put out. As such, I think Herc won't have any issue tanking Rulk's hits.

Final Counters:

Well , in this post I established how good Rulk's durability is and that he should be able to tank hits from Hercules , pretty well and even in the case he gets hurt I have shown his damage soak will allow him to keep fighting.

You did show some Rulk durability feats, but you didn't really compare them to what I showed for Herc's striking. For that reason, I'm not sure why you think Rulk's damage soak is enough to tank Herc's hits. On the other hand, I believe I directly compared the impacts Rulk has taken to what sort of punishment Herc can dish out, and found that Herc regularly dishes out more than Rulk can handle.

Hercules does have a slight advantage in Raw strength , but Rulk is quite strong himself , so Hercules will have problems to overpower him if it comes down to a grapple.

I agree that Herc has an advantage (wouldn't exactly call it "slight"), but it won't be that easy for him to overpower Rulk.

Hercules's striking is very impressive , but I think Rulk's is slightly better and should be enough to hurt Hercules and eventually put him down.

Once again, I have no idea why you compared Rulk's striking with Hercules' striking, instead of comparing Rulk's striking force with the feats I showed for Herc's durability. As such, I'm not really sure why you thought Rulk can put Herc down. On the other hand, I compared the feats you showed for Rulk's striking with some of Herc's durability feats, and I can confidently say that Rulk's strikes are, at absolute best, around the same level (if not worse) than unarmed Thor's hits. However, Herc tanks those all the time. I know I've only shown one fight where Thor and Herc have fought, but there's like 5 or 6 more. I have been assuming you know the gist of how those fights go down (ie. essentially all ending in draws), but if you want, I can go through a couple more of the great Thor and Herc battles to prove that tanking hits from Thor is consistent for Herc.

The last factor in this fight will be skill , although Hercules is more skilled , Rulk is also a very skilled and tactical opponent and I have given multiple feats were Rulk used his skills and strategies in a fight (Like his fight against Doc Green , or how he stopped Thing from attacking him and moved him away by holding his head , when he tackled Savage Hulk and got him into a look before draining him in their first fight and Ross himself held fair against Punisher in a H2H fight).

You've definitely impressed me in terms of how Rulk uses his tactical abilities in combat; however, I'm less convinced regarding Rulk's actual H2H skill compared to Hercules. I'm glad you agree that Herc is more skilled, though.

Speed really isn't an issue in this fight , because neither Rulk or Herc fight at high speeds , this fight will be a brawl and might involve some skill-showing in between.

I agree that speed isn't going to be a big deal.

Conclusion: How This Fight Will Go Down

I believe that Hercules is the better combatant in pretty much every category that matters. Rulk will definitely be feeling every single one of Herc's strikes, and will have a hard time doing any notable damage to Herc. As such, if they were to engage in a conventional brick brawl, I have no doubt Herc would leave as the victor.

However, that's not necessarily how I think it will go down. I see Hercules leveraging his advantages in raw strength and skill more effectively than just brawling with Rulk. If you think back to the fights I posted of Hercules vs Thing as well as Hercules vs Thor, Hercules ends the fight by putting his opponent in a hold that they are unable to break free from (technically, Thor breaks free using lightning, but that's not an option for Rulk so we can just pretend it didn't happen for this :P). Considering that Herc holds the both the strength and skill advantages over Rulk, as you yourself conceded, I don't see why Hercules can't end this battle by just putting Rulk in a similar hold, leaving him unable to escape. Rulk will basically be incapacitated, which is a win condition, or Herc can move forward from this hold and just choke Rulk out to knock him out.

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#45 Edited by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by Thedailybagel (12895 posts) - - Show Bio

O_o

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#47 Posted by Battle123axe (9053 posts) - - Show Bio

hmmm

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#48 Posted by deactivated-5cdd5f5529ad6 (3 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#49 Posted by skywalker95 (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

Great post BlackSpidey